a prime Marciano VS a prime Liston, who'd win?

[Greatest1942]

Originally Posted by Greatest1942

Here's a part of teh particle have a go at Patterson now please...how dare he thinks he can beat Liston if he had hit and run..I swear I only told what he said...

"Patterson's boom, boom, boom was blurred into a b-b-boommm as he fought the type of fight, he belatedly concedes, he should have fought against Liston. He kept away from danger and darted in and out, using his agility to reduce Herring's advantages in size.

Only in the second round did Herring score. Landing several good body punches, he seemed for a moment to become dangerous. But Patterson had no intention of letting this develop. In the next and final round, which lasted only 40 seconds, he finished the contest with seven fine punches. The first two were short, extremely fast left hooks that sent Herring back on his heels. The two men then clinched for a moment before the fight moved out into the open again, and Patterson hit Herring with the final five punches: a right, a left, a right, a left and a right. The blows sent the Texan staggering, though they did not knock him off his feet.

At this point British Referee Teddy Waltham stopped the fight. "If Herring had taken another punch," he said, "he might have been killed." Although, in the fashion of boxers, Herring said later that he thought the fight was stopped too soon, he also admitted in his honest, likable fashion that his legs were wobbling and his head was "muzzed up."

"Why," asked a Swede in the audience, "didn't Floyd fight Liston that way?" Drinking tea in the dressing room and frequently blowing his nose because of a cold that had come on that day, Patterson offered his own explanation. "All the time," he said, "the whole world is learning different things. First the Wright brothers flew; now we have jets. I did not know yesterday what I know today, but if I had to fight Liston all over again I would fight a completely different style. My pride this time would not compel me to fight as I did before."

Just to back up the pride thing that Floyd talks about.....

"But Floyd also has a stubborn pride, and if this pride overrules his good sense and he chooses to stand and slug it out—then that's it."---Ben Skelton.

Skelton actually does talk some sense. Most of what he says seems probable and very reasonable to me.

[Greatest1942]

Originally Posted by Greatest1942

Here's a part of teh particle have a go at Patterson now please...how dare he thinks he can beat Liston if he had hit and run..I swear I only told what he said...

"Patterson's boom, boom, boom was blurred into a b-b-boommm as he fought the type of fight, he belatedly concedes, he should have fought against Liston. He kept away from danger and darted in and out, using his agility to reduce Herring's advantages in size.

Only in the second round did Herring score. Landing several good body punches, he seemed for a moment to become dangerous. But Patterson had no intention of letting this develop. In the next and final round, which lasted only 40 seconds, he finished the contest with seven fine punches. The first two were short, extremely fast left hooks that sent Herring back on his heels. The two men then clinched for a moment before the fight moved out into the open again, and Patterson hit Herring with the final five punches: a right, a left, a right, a left and a right. The blows sent the Texan staggering, though they did not knock him off his feet.

At this point British Referee Teddy Waltham stopped the fight. "If Herring had taken another punch," he said, "he might have been killed." Although, in the fashion of boxers, Herring said later that he thought the fight was stopped too soon, he also admitted in his honest, likable fashion that his legs were wobbling and his head was "muzzed up."

"Why," asked a Swede in the audience, "didn't Floyd fight Liston that way?" Drinking tea in the dressing room and frequently blowing his nose because of a cold that had come on that day, Patterson offered his own explanation. "All the time," he said, "the whole world is learning different things. First the Wright brothers flew; now we have jets. I did not know yesterday what I know today, but if I had to fight Liston all over again I would fight a completely different style. My pride this time would not compel me to fight as I did before."

To Just substantiate this I will post what Skelton thought Patterson should do

"If he mixes up his style, Sonny will be constantly confused. But Floyd also has a stubborn pride, and if this pride overrules his good sense and he chooses to stand and slug it out—then that's it."

Patterson himself admits that it was his pride which did not allow him to do the hit and run tactics and instead led him to slug it out...

Now I dont believe Patterson would have won, but may be that would have made it a more interesting fight.

[joseph5620]

Originally Posted by Greatest1942

And read this man :-

"Shortly after I started working with Sonny Liston last June I nicknamed him The Bear. It became sort of a grim, hurtful joke to us sparring partners. He's mean in the ring; he can mess up your guts with one swipe. When I moved over to the champ's camp I discovered Floyd had been aptly nicknamed The Lion. Patterson moves easily and throws punches with catlike quickness. Yet it would be better for Floyd to imitate a cobra or a mongoose, moving in fast, loosing his combinations and getting out before Sonny has a chance to unload.

I have to laugh at the reports of Sonny's love for roadwork. Only thing I know is that I usually led all the way and when I finished up I hadn't worked up a sweat. That "three-mile" trot along the railroad bed was closer to 1� miles, and that "five-mile" run around that bitty nine-hole golf course couldn't have been more than two miles. Patterson, on the other hand, is a demon for running, and how that boy can run! This is another reason for Floyd to stay out of reach, make Liston chase him. If he does this, then around about the seventh round Sonny is going to run out of leg. In close, Patterson should pump straight lefts and rights to the body, because this, along with all the chasing, will sap Liston's strength and Sonny will unwind like an old clock spring."...Ben Skelton

Read the one in bold...now cough cough...Patterson we all know did not do this...but Clay did it..we all know what happened in the 7th round...man sometimes actually Sparring mates know some truth which common guys cannot/ do not have the scope to know....Ofcourse you might not agree

Now read further :-

"Sonny's like a stubborn kid. He just won't believe that anything or anybody can hurt him. And he fights the same way. He just keeps stalking, willing to take good shots in order to put over his left. But if the champ don't cooperate, then Sonny's in trouble. He has to fight his fight. It upsets him when he's unable to move the other guy around. It got so he wouldn't spar with Jim McCarter, who was too strong to shove and maul about"

McCarter...man did Sonny like him...Listen from the man...

"It was funny," McCarter says wryly. " Liston just didn't remember fighting me in the AAU tournament. He didn't remember losing, either. Even though it was in the record books. But from the moment I arrived in camp up in South Fallsburg, [N.Y.] last spring, I seemed to be the butt of all of Sonny's jokes. If someone had a question, Sonny would say, 'Ask college boy, he knows all the answers." After we began to spar, he liked me even less.

"One day after we had worked out. Sonny woke me up by ****ing a gun at my head and firing a blank. I guess I annoyed him. He was murdering all the sparring partners in camp except me. This he didn't like. I wasn't about to be raw meat for his bloody appetite. I protected myself. I fought like I did in the amateurs, only I was better. Willie Reddish [Sonny's trainer] had been working with me, and Liston resented this. Willie was forced to stop, but by then I had learned more than I had in my entire career."..He does say something similar to Ben...they both testify

1) Sonny never trained much (Stamina)
2) Sonny had trouble with McCarter...

Now I don't say McCarter beats Sonny...I say that there was enough bad blood between them to make Sonny take him a bit more seriously than sparring...

Again to everyone my point is to prove that Sonny could be fought in the inside, which can be done...was done in an actual fight and in sparring with a guy Sonny did not like

I won't comment on everything you posted because it would take too much time. But I will say it's ridiculous to assume that Patterson could have duplicated what Ali did because of what a sparring partner claimed. If any of those sparring partners could have done all of those things in the ring where it counted they would have. As for Patterson, he did not have the size or physical gifts that Clay did. And I stand by the fact that he never had a chance with Liston. You're going to tell me he realized the "wrong" strategy after TWO fights? To me it sounds like an excuse. He had plenty of time to come up with the best "strategy" for Liston and he didn't. Simply because Liston owned him and would have destroyed him under any circumstances.



Opinions don't mean anything to me when Patterson couldn't make it out of a round with Liston in two fights. And I don't care where the opinion is coming from.



I also stand by the fact that sparring cannot be compared to an official boxing match.

[Greatest1942]

Originally Posted by joseph5620

I won't comment on everything you posted because it would take too much time. But I will say it's ridiculous to assume that Patterson could have duplicated what Ali did because of what a sparring partner claimed. If any of those sparring partners could have done all of those things in the ring where it counted they would have. As for Patterson, he did not have the size or physical gifts that Clay did. And I stand by the fact that he never had a chance with Liston. You're going to tell me he realized the "wrong" strategy after TWO fights? To me it sounds like an excuse. He had plenty of time to come up with the best "strategy" for Liston and he didn't. Simply because Liston owned him and would have destroyed him under any circumstances.



Opinions don't mean anything to me when Patterson couldn't make it out of a round with Liston in two fights. And I don't care where the opinion is coming from.



I also stand by the fact that sparring cannot be compared to an official boxing match.

You absolutely dont make any sense in persisting with your "I dont care what way he fought"

Who the hell is saying Patterson would have won by that style? But can't you get the fact that teh way he fought was totally wrong for him against Liston...He would lose probably, but he may have made a better fight...

And the whole point is that when somebody made Liston do what Patterson thought was the right way, Liston quit.


You missed my main point....I am not saying Floyd would have won with that strategy...he would not have man...That doesn't mean he fought right. He was candid in his confession and actually said he has to learn new things to beat Clay/Ali, Liston ...It is not an excuse by any strech..Floyd was pretty candid IMO...give him credit for his honestly instead of simply crying "excuse". You dont know what he said fully...

Hell when he himself admits that he fought the wrong way it makes sense for us to believe that may be he was wrong in his approach. He doesnt claim he can beat Liston, instead says he has to get better to beat him. Where the fvck is the excuse?

That doesn't mean I am saying he will win (as you say he did not have CLay's chin)...why can't you get a simple point just because you know the weakness you may not win...but hell you can try...Thats what Floyd thought may be. And by the way Patterson is not slower than Machen by any means or smaller than Marty Marshall.

And that Sparring partners comment was important he was pointing out a style that was used successfully against Liston. And lastly he actually also predicted that Liston wil gas in the 7th round if some one could take him there...Which is what happened when someone did take him there...He never said he could take him there he asked better men to do it...quite sensible IMO.

Two sparring mates also point out Sonny never did much roadwork...I think they had a fair idea how much gas Sonny actually carried with that roadowork...which is what Skelton predicted. Of course you might have a better idea than men who lived with him then. Even if the evidence proves them right.

Lastly McCarter , (although this is trivial) did beat Liston when they bpth were green in a tournament(McCarter was 17 years old, Sonny had won teh golden gloves tournamne I think by then)...and he and a other sparring mate confirms that Liston always had trouble with him...No McCarter could not beat a Liston of 1958-59 sure...But I used him , Marshall, WhiteHurst and another example of a a "perennial loser" to hightlight the style that could cause Liston trouble except hitting and running...Whats so hard to understand By the by continue harping on the sparring story and ignore the other examples...you look good

[Greatest1942]

Originally Posted by joseph5620

I won't comment on everything you posted because it would take too much time. But I will say it's ridiculous to assume that Patterson could have duplicated what Ali did because of what a sparring partner claimed. If any of those sparring partners could have done all of those things in the ring where it counted they would have. As for Patterson, he did not have the size or physical gifts that Clay did. And I stand by the fact that he never had a chance with Liston. You're going to tell me he realized the "wrong" strategy after TWO fights? To me it sounds like an excuse. He had plenty of time to come up with the best "strategy" for Liston and he didn't. Simply because Liston owned him and would have destroyed him under any circumstances.



Opinions don't mean anything to me when Patterson couldn't make it out of a round with Liston in two fights. And I don't care where the opinion is coming from.



I also stand by the fact that sparring cannot be compared to an official boxing match.

I know you will again read half of something and reply , but again there are others who might like this :-

"Why," asked a Swede in the audience, "didn't Floyd fight Liston that way?" Drinking tea in the dressing room and frequently blowing his nose because of a cold that had come on that day, Patterson offered his own explanation. "All the time," he said, "the whole world is learning different things. First the Wright brothers flew; now we have jets. I did not know yesterday what I know today, but if I had to fight Liston all over again I would fight a completely different style. My pride this time would not compel me to fight as I did before."

The metamorphosis, Patterson explained, occurred in his fight with Chuvalo. "I have never fought anyone as I fought Chuvalo. My strategy before then was to go forward until I sustained an injury and was compelled to go backwards. Against Chuvalo, I had to drop my pride or retire. My choice was not to retire but to retreat. That's why I won. But had I fought Chuvalo or Tod Herring or Eddie Machen the first time I came back to Sweden I do not believe I would have won. I took a very easy fight when I fought Amonti because I wanted to find out if I had anything left. I saw I still had something, and I trained for Machen and was able to win again. If I had fought Chuvalo immediately after Machen I don't think I would have won, so I have been stepping up gradually. To beat Sonny Liston or Cassius Clay I have to get better still."


.............

Yea sounds like a man making excuses....he is so full of himself aint it/ Man actually Floyd said all this to demean Liston, may be thought he could make him quit...

And lastly the problem I pointed out with Liston (not the hit and run) was exposed in sparring, fighting (more than once in his prime and non prime).

So it wa sno flash in the pan and a disconnected Ellis dropping Ali....if you can't read everything ...you might be more busy than me ..I am in holiday after all...dont bother replying

[Greatest1942]

One last thing Joseph before blaming Patterson of ducking Sonny Liston you should understand you rown country's president would have supported him had he continued ducking him...the man was good and honest enough to come out of DAmato and the general publics clamour to give the fight to Liston...he was no Jack Dempsey...

"I'm sorry, Mr. President," Patterson said he told Kennedy. "The title is not worth anything if the best fighters can't have a shot at it. And Liston deserves a shot."

With no great public demand and huge political pressure, I will say Patterson desrves credit for ultimately giving the title shot.

[Greatest1942]

Originally Posted by Greatest1942

One last thing Joseph before blaming Patterson of ducking Sonny Liston you should understand you rown country's president would have supported him had he continued ducking him...the man was good and honest enough to come out of DAmato and the general publics clamour to give the fight to Liston...he was no Jack Dempsey...

"I'm sorry, Mr. President," Patterson said he told Kennedy. "The title is not worth anything if the best fighters can't have a shot at it. And Liston deserves a shot."

With no great public demand and huge political pressure, I will say Patterson desrves credit for ultimately giving the title shot.

There is common myth propagated by many Liston backers that he was ducked for years...well lets see


Ring Rankings for year 1958:-
Floyd Patterson, Champion

1.Ingemar Johansson
2.Nino Valdes
3.Zora Folley
4.Henry Cooper
5.Willie Pastrano
6.Archie Moore
7.Eddie Machen
8.Brian London
9.Sonny Liston
10.Mike DeJohn



for 1959 :-
Ingemar Johansson, Champion

1.Zora Folley
2.Floyd Patterson
3.Sonny Liston
4.Henry Cooper
5.Eddie Machen
6.Billy Hunter
7.Roy Harris
8.Mike DeJohn
9.Joe Erskine
10.Alex Miteff

Sonny was not in the top 10 in 1957...

Ring Rankings 1960

Floyd Patterson, Champion

1.Sonny Liston
2.Ingemar Johansson
3.Eddie Machen
4.Zora Folley
5.Henry Cooper
6.Mike DeJohn
7.Robert Cleroux
8.Alex Miteff
9.Dick Richardson
10.Joe Erskine


Ring Rankings 1961 :-

Floyd Patterson, Champion

1.Sonny Liston
2.Eddie Machen
3.Zora Folley
4.Alejandro Lavorante
5.Robert Cleroux
6.Ingemar Johansson
7.Cleveland Williams
8.Henry Cooper
9.Cassius Clay
10.George Logan


Ducked for 1 and a half year, but given the shot eventually it seems....not as bad a job as it is made out...

Patterson knew he had little chance, but he still had the integrity to give the shot, which many have cowered away...he desrves kudos rather than brickbats for that.

[Greatest1942]

Originally Posted by SBleeder

Patterson's strategic error was leaving the locker room. His chin would have maybe lasted 3 rounds if he had backpedaled away from Liston instead of rushing him.

And in that he looked better than Jack Dempsey, Jack Johnson and a host of other heavies who ducked their number 1 contender for a longer period...and didn't even give a shot.

And none of them would have had the backing of the US president and a whole host of other people, for ducking his contender....

Being sarcastic is fine lets give soem credit...Teh man showed some courage of rectitude...and all the while I don't think Patterson thought he could beat Liston...certainly not with his fists ...with a gun may be.