Wlad vs the greats

[hebi]

Originally Posted by poet682006

Wlad is no slouch in the speed department? HAHAHAHAHA the dude looks like Lurch on Qualudes in there :hahahaha9:

Well, he is a lot slower than Ali, but he's above average for the division especially for his size. Like I said, timing makes up for speed, and height and reach advantages help too.


Light years is dead accurate. Greater punch variety then Ali? Are you on crack? Wlad throws basically a jab and a right hand. That's it. That's his entire arsenal. Ali threw every punch in the book including hooks and uppercuts. How often does Wlad throw and uppercut? Once every 10 fights?

Wlad primarily throws the jab and right hand, but he has demonstrated his ability to use a lot more than that. His short left hook is unreal for a heavyweight. His style is european, so it is true he doesn't use many uppercuts. I would probably take back the statement about punch variety, but he does have plenty of tools. I stand by the statement of him not being badly outskilled.

Yeah, the way he was bothered by Liston and Foreman's powere Remind me again how those fights turned out.

Try to be realistic on every point, do not blur them because you're desparate for an active fighter to be your Superman.

Poet

How about the way he was bothered by Henry Cooper's power, or Ken Norton's power, Joe Frazier, etc. Wlad is not going to beat Ali just by being a big puncher, but if he times Ali he is going to hurt him. Ali would not wilt because he was too tough. No matter how tough you are though, being hurt does not help your chances in a fight.

[hebi]

"Try to be realistic on every point, do not blur them because you're desparate for an active fighter to be your Superman."

I am anti hero worship, which is exactly why I am taking up for Wlad in this discussion. I have already stated Ali would probably win. I would like to point out the technical advantages Wlad would have, though, as opposed to mindlessly hyping the fighter and era of my choice.

[poet682006]

Originally Posted by hebi

Well, he is a lot slower than Ali, but he's above average for the division especially for his size. Like I said, timing makes up for speed, and height and reach advantages help too.

Compared to what? The speed of obese tomato cans that make up the Heavyweight division today? Timing makes up for speed when the dude your timing is an obese fvck with the mobility of a statue. Height is the most irrelivent attribute in boxing. Wlad has no significant reach advantage over Ali (1" being statistically negligable). Next!

Originally Posted by hebi

Wlad primarily throws the jab and right hand, but he has demonstrated his ability to use a lot more than that. His short left hook is unreal for a heavyweight.

No. Just no. Frazier's left hook was unreal for a Heavyweight. Tyson's left hook was unreal for a Heavyweight. Wlad's left hook awkward and mechanical and he throws once a decade.

Originally Posted by hebi

His style is european

You're not doing your idol any favors by pointing out how he uses the inferior Eurofraud amatuer style thet gets fighters starched against quality opponents.

Originally Posted by hebi

so it is true he doesn't use many uppercuts. I would probably take back the statement about punch variety, but he does have plenty of tools. I stand by the statement of him not being badly outskilled.

Then why claim it? Oh that's right! Because you're just pulling things out of your azz because you don't have a clue.

Originally Posted by hebi

I stand by the statement of him not being badly outskilled.

That's because you're retarded.

Originally Posted by hebi

How about the way he was bothered by Henry Cooper's power

Remind me again how that fight turned out? Oh yeah, Cooper got slaughtered.

Originally Posted by hebi

or Ken Norton's power.

It wasn't Norton's power that gave a past-prime Ali problems.....and Wlad does NONE of the things that Norton did that bothered Ali.

Originally Posted by hebi

Joe Frazier

Wlad is no Frazier and you should appologize to Joe for even mentioning him in reference to Wlad. You should appologize for even THINKING it.

Originally Posted by hebi

Wlad is not going to beat Ali just by being a big puncher, but if he times Ali he is going to hurt him. Ali would not wilt because he was too tough. No matter how tough you are though, being hurt does not help your chances in a fight.

I guarantee you Ali's going to put a hell of a lot more hurt on Wlad then Wlad puts on him.....and Wlad doesn't have a fraction of Ali's ability to take it.

Poet

[Greatest1942]

Originally Posted by hebi

An intelligent, well thought out reply to my post.. how dare you, sir.

Are you referring to Ali before the forced lay off? Obviously he was a good deal quicker and more mobile back then(although timing and skill can always accommodate speed). I tend to imagine post layoff Ali, because that is where he really did most of his work.

As for Wlad's failure to properly catch Haye, I chock that up to Haye fighting scared more than an issue of speed. Look at the fight between Pac/Mosley. Pacquaio is one of the most accurate, dangerous offensive fighters of all time, but Mosley(and Clottey for that matter) made him look bad by refusing to fight. It would be incorrect to sum it up as though they gave Pac problems, same case for Wlad/Haye. It takes two to fight.

Ali did fight a wide range of good fighters. How many did he fight who were taller, longer reach, and a good jab of their own? I really don't think Ali ever fought anyone comparable to Wlad. Maybe Foreman would be the most relevant(albeit with tremendously different styles). Most of the guys Ali fought were either smaller than him(he was a big heavyweight in his day) or they were lumbering oafs with nowhere near the talent of Wlad(not criticizing Ali's unparalleled competition, but pointing out the important size differential). I feel Ali's style(hands down, reflex based, relying on jabbing, movement, and utilizing distance) is used most effectively against an opponent who is shorter. I see it as a style that would be difficult to utilize against a man significantly larger, with accurate punching and good timing.

Foreman, perhaps the largest and most athletic opponent of Ali's career, himself was not so much outboxed as outfoxed, collapsing from lack of stamina. I would like to say the much sharper combination puncher in Wlad would not punch himself out with wild swings, but the bizarre first fight with Brewster makes that a hard claim as dubious as it was.

I have a hard time picking against Ali given Wlad's lack of intangibles and his poor losses, however I strongly disagree that Ali gets an easy decision. I could see him wearing Wlad down and stopping him late, or winning a very difficult decision at best.

Let me give you one answer first up...since you already pick Ali over Wlad I have nothing to say against it. I am answering just for clarifying some of my points.

Now to answer some of your points, yes I am referring to the pre exile Ali where he was a bit faster. You can take the 71 Ali too. For he was still faster than Wlad.

Well Haye was an example, all I can say is for what ever the reason he did look bad, and failed to catch up Haye. While Ali wont be so afraid he will have a better jab and will be more stronger in cliches. And I do think a guy who is backtracking behind a decent jab is harder to catch upto than some one like Haye. But its my opinion. Again lots of heavy weights have faced guys who ran from them, but guys who troubled the greats were guys who were technically sound too and had good "keep off " tools. I doubt Haye could keep off a Louis as Conn did or Foreman as Young did.I dont mind if you disagree.

Well I can name a few who Ali fought who had a very good jab. AlaSonny Liston. Liston had enormous physical strength, enormous paws and a reach greater than Ali or Wlad for that matter. I have seen Liston push opponenets with one hand, KO guys with a jab, something I doubt Wlad can do. Foreman was stronger than Ali, but yea he is different to Ali. Ken Norton had a decent jab (Wlad has better), was better defensively and knew how to parry(Wlad has no notion of it) and was as strong as Ali. The ex marine was strong.

I agree about Foreman vs Ali...Ali did not outbox him. It was a war of attrition and Ali won. I doubt Foreman himself again would do it. I think Foreman did not expect Ali to take it as well as he did. And he panicked, trying to hit harder and harder, and becoming more wild. If he was calm and did pace himself he would have done better. I doubt though Wlad is as good at cutting off the ring as Foreman was. Plus the pre exile Ali will be harder to corner.

Ali is made a demi god now a days. When I see him I see some one who threw punches from the back foot, and rarely threw proper hooks , the interesting thing is that he threw a pretty hard left hook counter when he let it go ... the Bonavena fight is one example ... the third Frazier fight in round two is another ...Not a featherfist ... decent just not a big puncher ... even his peers did not acknowledge much of Ali's punching power. But now a days he is made out to be a great puncher. he was not bad, he was decent. Some of the best posters get carried away and say rubiish when it comes to defending Ali. The guy was great but not god.Thats all



His power is average I guess. I say he hit ever so slightly less hard than Holmes overall. There are anomalies like KOing Bonavena... but that was a perfectly placed shot. Just like what we see with Tua KO... a perfectly placed punch can knock down an iron-chinned fighter. I know Tua is past it, but nobody would've expect that. Similiarly, who would think Bonavena goes 24 rounds with Frazier but gets KOed by Ali? No one.

His KO over Foreman gets largely over-rated when it's a point to his power. Foreman was exhausted , and he actually lay down.

Do I think Ali can hurt Wlad much as Poet says? Objectively speaking I dont know. He hurt Oscar, but failed to hurt Leon Spinks. I cant say. Ali was just not a A+ puncher. While a well placed shot could hurt guys like Oscar, mostly Ali depended on collective damage.

But honestly I dont see Wlad running after a prime Ali for a classic 15 rounder and over whemling him. Leave aside the intangibles. Ali outpoints. It is close in the first rounds but as wlad tires Ali scores more easily. But its just how I call it you can differ. Doesnt matter. We cant find out who's right.



But ultimately you said Ali will win...so these are just some clarifications.

[hebi]

Let me give you one answer first up...since you already pick Ali over Wlad I have nothing to say against it. I am answering just for clarifying some of my points.

The small points are where the interest lies for me. I don't care about one era vs another, I have no bias. I just like to dissect and analyze styles and matchups, and hopefully make an interesting conversation out of it.

Now to answer some of your points, yes I am referring to the pre exile Ali where he was a bit faster. You can take the 71 Ali too. For he was still faster than Wlad.

Well, I'd be more able to see the younger Ali winning wide. I still see Wlad timing him and hurting him, but that version of Ali was a lot quicker. I still say post exile Ali was not fresh enough to skate by without a grueling fight.

Well Haye was an example, all I can say is for what ever the reason he did look bad, and failed to catch up Haye. While Ali wont be so afraid he will have a better jab and will be more stronger in cliches. And I do think a guy who is backtracking behind a decent jab is harder to catch upto than some one like Haye. But its my opinion. Again lots of heavy weights have faced guys who ran from them, but guys who troubled the greats were guys who were technically sound too and had good "keep off " tools. I doubt Haye could keep off a Louis as Conn did or Foreman as Young did.I dont mind if you disagree.

I would agree with you about Haye not being able to keep off Louis or Foreman. Wlad is an exceedingly cautious fighter with a bit of a suspect chin, so Haye only needed the occasional Hayemaker for respect. Not Wlad's most impressive performance, but he did what he needed to do and it is a matter of styles.

Well I can name a few who Ali fought who had a very good jab. AlaSonny Liston. Liston had enormous physical strength, enormous paws and a reach greater than Ali or Wlad for that matter. I have seen Liston push opponenets with one hand, KO guys with a jab, something I doubt Wlad can do. Foreman was stronger than Ali, but yea he is different to Ali. Ken Norton had a decent jab (Wlad has better), was better defensively and knew how to parry(Wlad has no notion of it) and was as strong as Ali. The ex marine was strong.

Sonny did have a great jab, overlooked that. I think I'll have to rewatch their first fight(I don't put much stock in the second). The Norton fight was one I had in my mind when imagining Wlad giving Ali some problems. You made a good point about their relative parrying abilities, though I think he is a relevant comparison because he was not at a height disadvantage with Ali, as you mentioned he had a good jab and obviously some good boxing/countering skills. He did an excellent job timing Ali, and was able to neutralize Ali at range at times, something I can imagine Wlad also accomplishing.

I agree about Foreman vs Ali...Ali did not outbox him. It was a war of attrition and Ali won. I doubt Foreman himself again would do it. I think Foreman did not expect Ali to take it as well as he did. And he panicked, trying to hit harder and harder, and becoming more wild. If he was calm and did pace himself he would have done better. I doubt though Wlad is as good at cutting off the ring as Foreman was. Plus the pre exile Ali will be harder to corner.

I have a hard time imagining anyone effectively cut off the ring against pre exile Ali. It would serve Wlad well, but as you said, he does not seem especially adept at it. I do feel his size advantage, sharp punching skills and good jab are enough to make a fight of it in the center of the ring however.

Ali is made a demi god now a days. When I see him I see some one who threw punches from the back foot, and rarely threw proper hooks , the interesting thing is that he threw a pretty hard left hook counter when he let it go ... the Bonavena fight is one example ... the third Frazier fight in round two is another ...Not a featherfist ... decent just not a big puncher ... even his peers did not acknowledge much of Ali's punching power. But now a days he is made out to be a great puncher. he was not bad, he was decent. Some of the best posters get carried away and say rubiish when it comes to defending Ali. The guy was great but not god.Thats all

Well said. I have a lot of respect for Ali, but I think it is important to maintain your ability to view things objectively. Fact is, Ali had a number of tough fights, sometimes against fighters who it would be ludicrous to say were better than Wlad. As for his power I would say fast, well placed shots can do a lot of damage over time. I do not think Ali was ever a real KO puncher, and I think that is a pretty safe statement.

His power is average I guess. I say he hit ever so slightly less hard than Holmes overall. There are anomalies like KOing Bonavena... but that was a perfectly placed shot. Just like what we see with Tua KO... a perfectly placed punch can knock down an iron-chinned fighter. I know Tua is past it, but nobody would've expect that. Similiarly, who would think Bonavena goes 24 rounds with Frazier but gets KOed by Ali? No one.

His KO over Foreman gets largely over-rated when it's a point to his power. Foreman was exhausted , and he actually lay down.

Do I think Ali can hurt Wlad much as Poet says? Objectively speaking I dont know. He hurt Oscar, but failed to hurt Leon Spinks. I cant say. Ali was just not a A+ puncher. While a well placed shot could hurt guys like Oscar, mostly Ali depended on collective damage.

I think the fact that he KO'd Oscar can be attributed to attrition, fatigue, and the fact that Bonavena walked into his shots. It was also a picture perfect left hook after a long grueling fight for Oscar. I don't think it is a scenario that would particularly apply to a fight with Wlad. I can't see Ali doing too much damage with a single punch, and I also don't expect Wlad to be eating enough for attrition to become a factor. I would be more concerned
about Wlad's stamina than his chin.

But honestly I dont see Wlad running after a prime Ali for a classic 15 rounder and over whemling him. Leave aside the intangibles. Ali outpoints. It is close in the first rounds but as wlad tires Ali scores more easily. But its just how I call it you can differ. Doesnt matter. We cant find out who's right.

Wlad absolutely does not have the temperament to fight with such focused aggression on such a high level, I agree. Aside from that, I personally feel Wlad's style, size, and physical skills match up right to give Ali a lot of technical and physical problems.

But ultimately you said Ali will win...so these are just some clarifications.

[them_apples]

I see Ali in his prime, moving on his feet and Wlad stalking him like a robot. He might land some good right hands throughout the fight but in my opinion not enough to really account for anything. If Cruiserweight Haye took his shots flush, Ali will soak them up proper.

Anyways, because of Wlads style, I don't see even a prime Ali knocking him out. Wlad will stalk him early, get caught by something straight ( no wild Hayemakers from Ali) then start backing up and looking to land his jab. Basically a boring decision for Ali. If Wlad was a wee bit shorter I'd say Ali knocks him out.

Ali in his comeback probably takes more right hands, but in my opinion the jab-jab-cross method isn't ever going to be enough to beat Ali. Especailly considering Ali's resume against Taller opponents. (williams, terrel, foreman)

[SCtrojansbaby]

Originally Posted by them_apples

I see Ali in his prime, moving on his feet and Wlad stalking him like a robot. He might land some good right hands throughout the fight but in my opinion not enough to really account for anything. If Cruiserweight Haye took his shots flush, Ali will soak them up proper.

Anyways, because of Wlads style, I don't see even a prime Ali knocking him out. Wlad will stalk him early, get caught by something straight ( no wild Hayemakers from Ali) then start backing up and looking to land his jab. Basically a boring decision for Ali. If Wlad was a wee bit shorter I'd say Ali knocks him out.

Ali in his comeback probably takes more right hands, but in my opinion the jab-jab-cross method isn't ever going to be enough to beat Ali. Especailly considering Ali's resume against Taller opponents. (williams, terrel, foreman)

Why would Wlad stalk Ali? Manny would have Wlad take the center of the ring and just do the jab jab hold all night. If Ali wins it would be him stealing rounds by a doing flashy flurries that don't really land at the end of rounds

[poet682006]

Originally Posted by SCtrojansbaby

Why would Wlad stalk Ali? Manny would have Wlad take the center of the ring and just do the jab jab hold all night. If Ali wins it would be him stealing rounds by a doing flashy flurries that don't really land at the end of rounds

Ali outjabs Wlad. End of story. Please make sure your minders lock the door when they put you away for the night

Poet

[Marchegiano]

I've just read the thread today. Usually an 11 pager I hadn't seen yet I'd just leave be...too much reading, but there was a post back there that got me inspired so I read on to see if any of the guys I think of as insightful or at least better writters would pick up before me. Seems it just kinda went by uncontested or maybe noticed.

The comment about being unsure of older champions. Jack Johsnson on back I think I read.

When I talk about the old champs, including ones not quite as old as Jack, I read criticisms about them fighting slow, stiff, upright, and low punch count in their combo's if they combo at all. If we were arguing Sullivan-Tyson those are the criticisms a Tyson supporter should focus on. They're the very same criticisms that're given to Wlad. Wlad fights a lot like the old guys except he's missing that killer instinct. Those guys before the 1900's really weren't too concerned with human life. I'd wager a guy around the Johnson era would beat and hurt Wlad, but a man closer to the James Figg's era, even with 100lbs disadvantage, may kill Wlad.

I'm surprised there are so many in the history section willing to give Wlad a spot in their top 20. If you count from Figg on Wlad's not even in my top 50, and really i've never done a 100, but I'm sure I can list 100 guys in no particular order that could beat Wald.

[The Surgeon]

I think Jack Johnson would knock seven shades of ***** out of Wlad. Been watching alot of Johnson of late since i found out he lived down the road from me, ive also been going mad with the parrys in sparring and they work a treat. I see Johnson parrying that jab and coming over the top, once he has Wlad wary of throwing the jab its over...