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#21
Old 07-01-2011, 02:17 PM
OLD JUD
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Originally Posted by Pastrano View Post
The thing is, Sanders' stamina wasn't exactly good either.He lost the fight to Rahman because he gassed too early, which is a shame, otherwise he'd likely have another big name on his resume besides Wlad. Not that I care that much really, but its a fact. So now that I think more carefully about it, Frank would have a bigger chance to win than I thought originally.
Agreed, But i think he had a bit more in the tank than Frank, i guess Bruno would get off to the brighter start, then the rot would set in.

There's no way this would be an edge of your seat classic when you way up the collective boxing talent at stake, in fact it could be a dire performance all round, but my gut instinct still gives Sanders the edge. Would i pay to see the fight?.......NO WAY!
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#22
Old 07-01-2011, 02:21 PM
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Bruno would ko him.
much better fighter overall.
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#23
Old 07-01-2011, 02:38 PM
Pastrano
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Sanders HAS been koed by one punch also, against Nate Tubbs. Bruno def had the power to do it, but would he? Not sure, he tended to get carried away and swing wildly. He could get hit clean with a counterpunch.
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#24
Old 07-03-2011, 04:39 PM
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Originally Posted by OLD JUD View Post
Tony Tucker and a few others who know better would argue with you over that point. The younger more ambitious Lewis would and could pick an opponent apart with the jab, and he used it more intelligently than Bruno, not surprising seeing as he was just a more intelligent fighter.
To be honest, I don't take too much notice of what fighters say about each other insofar as making judgements are concerned. I prefer to rely on what my own eyes tell me.

The reason Manny Steward became increasingly frustrated with Lennox Lewis is because he knew the kid had all the abilities needed to rival any heavy you care to mention. Time and time again in training Lewis put on a virtuoso performance demonstrating every skill in the book. But when it came to the fight Lennox's ego (and perhaps a touch of caution) got the better of him. He was Heavyweight Champion of the world and he'd beat whomever he damned pleased his way - or the highway. In the corner Steward would often be ranting and raving at Lennox in order to get back to the plan whilst Lewis would just sit there in his customary trance completely oblivious to anyone's presence.

Lewis's jab was arguably his greatest weapon and his greatest weakness. When he was focussed on the task in hand Lewis could land a thudding, precise jab and he could do this often. When used to its potential it was an extremely discouraging proposition which gave Lennox the freedom to double-up, feint or let loose the big artillery. Unfortunately, for much of his career he opted - for reasons only he can explain - to work without this advantage.

Lennox might argue that he beat every opponent he faced fighting his way therefore his decision was vindicated. It's a valid point because he was talented enough to get away with taking the kind of liberties other champions would lose their belts over. But every liberty has its price. And Lennox paid a few throughout his career. By not relying on the full power of his jab he made fights against Mavrovic, Holyfield and Mercer needlessly difficult. He should have put those guys away and didn't.

Moreover, it was laxness that resulted in his two defeats. Laxness with respect to maintaining a healthy fighting weight (Rahman) and laxness of focus (Rahman & McCall). He gave those fights away, really.

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Yes he did take some big shots without going over, but when the better guys hit him he was literally rooted to the spot. Bruno seemed to have little or no natural defensive instinct, some guys have the survival instinct to either hold, bob and weave, or punch there way out of trouble. Bruno was handicapped by a severe lack of natural movement especially lateral movement.
Well, those were more matters of poor training. Had he been instructed by a better coach we wouldn't be talking about them here. I mean, there's no way someone like Freddie Roach would have tolerated Bruno's defensive naivety or his physical condition. The popular argument is that Frank's fitness was so poor because he carried too much muscle. That's not strictly accurate. Plenty of fighters have had impressive physiques without suffering in the championship rounds. The real problem was that Frank's body-to-fat ratio was way too low.

When performing any vigorous exercise the body's muscles rely on a high proportion of oxygen (whilst also burning a smaller percentage of fat). As time passes the level of oxygen will decrease (you cannot cycle it through your lungs fast enough) and stored reserves of fat will be cannibalised. Unfortunately for Frank he didn't have much fat to burn. Which meant he didn't have access to reserves of energy his opponents could rely on.

It was a criminal error of training. Frank's people had no appreciation of the science of physical fitness. They were old and set in their ways. Not that age is an excuse because you didn't need to be a sports scientist to spot the paucity of world champions who had physiques like Frank's down the years.

It's tragic really because Bruno had the raw materials to be a good champion fighter. Larry Holmes would have killed for Bruno's power whilst Lennox would have been unstoppable with Bruno's jab. And let's not forget that he was a BIG guy, too.

Suffice to say that after watching the fiasco that was Haye vs Wlad I would bet my house on a well-trained Bruno giving either Klitschko fits.

Last edited by Mugwump; 07-03-2011 at 04:42 PM.
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#25
Old 07-04-2011, 09:21 AM
OLD JUD
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Originally Posted by Mugwump View Post
To be honest, I don't take too much notice of what fighters say about each other insofar as making judgements are concerned. I prefer to rely on what my own eyes tell me.

The reason Manny Steward became increasingly frustrated with Lennox Lewis is because he knew the kid had all the abilities needed to rival any heavy you care to mention. Time and time again in training Lewis put on a virtuoso performance demonstrating every skill in the book. But when it came to the fight Lennox's ego (and perhaps a touch of caution) got the better of him. He was Heavyweight Champion of the world and he'd beat whomever he damned pleased his way - or the highway. In the corner Steward would often be ranting and raving at Lennox in order to get back to the plan whilst Lewis would just sit there in his customary trance completely oblivious to anyone's presence.

Lewis's jab was arguably his greatest weapon and his greatest weakness. When he was focussed on the task in hand Lewis could land a thudding, precise jab and he could do this often. When used to its potential it was an extremely discouraging proposition which gave Lennox the freedom to double-up, feint or let loose the big artillery. Unfortunately, for much of his career he opted - for reasons only he can explain - to work without this advantage.

Lennox might argue that he beat every opponent he faced fighting his way therefore his decision was vindicated. It's a valid point because he was talented enough to get away with taking the kind of liberties other champions would lose their belts over. But every liberty has its price. And Lennox paid a few throughout his career. By not relying on the full power of his jab he made fights against Mavrovic, Holyfield and Mercer needlessly difficult. He should have put those guys away and didn't.

Moreover, it was laxness that resulted in his two defeats. Laxness with respect to maintaining a healthy fighting weight (Rahman) and laxness of focus (Rahman & McCall). He gave those fights away, really.



Well, those were more matters of poor training. Had he been instructed by a better coach we wouldn't be talking about them here. I mean, there's no way someone like Freddie Roach would have tolerated Bruno's defensive naivety or his physical condition. The popular argument is that Frank's fitness was so poor because he carried too much muscle. That's not strictly accurate. Plenty of fighters have had impressive physiques without suffering in the championship rounds. The real problem was that Frank's body-to-fat ratio was way too low.

When performing any vigorous exercise the body's muscles rely on a high proportion of oxygen (whilst also burning a smaller percentage of fat). As time passes the level of oxygen will decrease (you cannot cycle it through your lungs fast enough) and stored reserves of fat will be cannibalised. Unfortunately for Frank he didn't have much fat to burn. Which meant he didn't have access to reserves of energy his opponents could rely on.

It was a criminal error of training. Frank's people had no appreciation of the science of physical fitness. They were old and set in their ways. Not that age is an excuse because you didn't need to be a sports scientist to spot the paucity of world champions who had physiques like Frank's down the years.

It's tragic really because Bruno had the raw materials to be a good champion fighter. Larry Holmes would have killed for Bruno's power whilst Lennox would have been unstoppable with Bruno's jab. And let's not forget that he was a BIG guy, too.

Suffice to say that after watching the fiasco that was Haye vs Wlad I would bet my house on a well-trained Bruno giving either Klitschko fits.
Pretty fair assessment, but you are preaching to the converted as far as Lewis is concerned.

Lewis highlighted is lack of focus as he allowed himself to exceed the 17.5 stone mark, the writing was on the wall in several of his fights.
The man who i class as the PEAK Lewis could and would have jabbed the head off virtually any heavyweight put in front of him.
Lewis got to the point were he had just too many outside interests (And therefore distractions) from boxing and the rot set in. I also make my judgement's from what i see, but i also take on board what the PROFESSIONALS say, afterall they are more knowledgeable then us. And enough respected pundits,boxers, and trainers gave Lewis credit for his skills...Including that JAB. (When he could be bothered to use it effectively)

As for Bruno, your correct about his conditioning. But one has a natural ability to defend oneself, and Bruno's 'Natural' defence was weak.It's a bit like having a glass jaw, yes you can improve your defence technique to protect it, but it's always suspect.

For he's sheer size and strength, i would agree with you that Bruno would possibly get off to a good start against either of the Ukrainians, their work rate would be easier to cope with than the ferocity and speed of a Tyson.
Then i'm afraid we tread that predictable road of Bruno shipping heavy artillery later in the fight and ending up horizontal........
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#26
Old 07-04-2011, 05:07 PM
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Pretty fair assessment, but you are preaching to the converted as far as Lewis is concerned.

Lewis highlighted is lack of focus as he allowed himself to exceed the 17.5 stone mark, the writing was on the wall in several of his fights.
The man who i class as the PEAK Lewis could and would have jabbed the head off virtually any heavyweight put in front of him.
Lewis got to the point were he had just too many outside interests (And therefore distractions) from boxing and the rot set in. I also make my judgement's from what i see, but i also take on board what the PROFESSIONALS say, afterall they are more knowledgeable then us. And enough respected pundits,boxers, and trainers gave Lewis credit for his skills...Including that JAB. (When he could be bothered to use it effectively).
I don't like the assumption that a "professional" opinion is unquestionably more valuable than a casual observer's. It's flawed for numerous reasons and should be taken with a generous pinch of sodium chloride. Of course, this is not to say professionals are incapable of talking sense. Plenty do and I make every effort to watch/listen/read. But I think people should strive to form their own opinions and critique others on their merits.

Insofar as the Lewis jab is concerned I just don't see enough evidence to warrant the claim that it was effective during his peak. Unless you're saying his peak spanned a very short period (one or two fights). When, in your opinion, did the Lewis peak occur? And which bouts did it span?

Quote:
As for Bruno, your correct about his conditioning. But one has a natural ability to defend oneself, and Bruno's 'Natural' defence was weak.It's a bit like having a glass jaw, yes you can improve your defence technique to protect it, but it's always suspect.
Again, I'm not sure that I agree. Bruno's defence tended to be pretty sound until he gassed. And when he gassed that was it. He barely had the strength to lift his arms. But this is common to most fighters who have fitness issues. Think of Haye vs Carl Thompson. Think of Jermain Taylor vs Carl Froch. Think of Nigel Benn vs Watson (ok Benn punched himself out, but the result was the same).

When you reach the stage when your last reserves of energy leak away it is incredibly difficult to defend yourself.

Quote:
For he's sheer size and strength, i would agree with you that Bruno would possibly get off to a good start against either of the Ukrainians, their work rate would be easier to cope with than the ferocity and speed of a Tyson.
Then i'm afraid we tread that predictable road of Bruno shipping heavy artillery later in the fight and ending up horizontal........
First off I'd say ANY version of Bruno stands a chance against Wlad. As I have mentioned in another thread - the way to beat him is with the jab. Wlad doesn't like to come forward preferring instead to hide behind his own - which is effective, but he doesn't deliver it often enough. If Bruno looked to engage four or five times per round - on each occasion doubling up the jab - Wlad would be forced to come forward in order to recover the points. At which point he would slide within range of Bruno's heavy artillery. And if Corrie Sanders can floor Wlad I'm certain Bruno can.

Yes, if it goes to the later rounds Bruno would probably gas out and be knocked out. Vitali would be a tougher proposition and I doubt Frank could survive.

That said, a well-coached, well-conditioned Bruno would be a handful for either brother. I'd go so far as to make him favourite against Wlad and perhaps 50/50 vs Vitali.
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