Monte D. Cox - Jack Johnson: The Equal of Ali

[StarshipTrooper]

As one who has posted negative opinion(s) of JJ, let the record show that I did read all the info you posted on him.

Just to stir the pot a little....

1. What Jack Dempsey said about Johnson....I remember him giving nice compliments about every other heavyweight whenever he was asked about any of them. He could say the same things about the other great heavyweights as well.

2. What do you think Stanley Ketchel would have said had he fought Muhammad Ali? If he was impressed by Johnson's defensive prowness, don't you think that Ali's extra 2 inches in height and even faster speed would also have elicited high praise from Ketchel? And what if middleweight Stan Ketchel had fought Rocky Marciano? Do you think after that fight, Ketchel would also offer high praise to the Rock? For sure. And Marciano fought a lot in the mid 180's range. That's only 15 lbs or so more then the 170 lbs that Ketchel weighed when he fought JJ. Johnson weighed 35 lbs more then Ketchel did when they fought. Joe Frazier fought around the 205 range, same as what Johnson weighed when he flattened Ketchel. What compliments would Ketchel pay to Frazier after they would have fought?

3. We can go thru every great champion there has ever been in boxing and gather up various accolades and articles of high praise that was heaped upon each one of them by various people at various points in each of their careers.

The article you took the time to post here was an excellent one. I'm very impressed by lots of what was written. Still, as great as Johnson was, I still think that there are many other heavyweights in history who would have beaten him. And who also have had many glowing things written about them as well.

I don't necessarily with everything in the article, rather I thought I'd post it to give another take on the subject.

Poet

[The Surgeon]

I don't necessarily with everything in the article, rather I thought I'd post it to give another take on the subject.

Poet

What are ur thoughts on Johnson poet?

Im not big on him myself and tend to agree with Terry but it was an enjoyable and intresting read u posted so thanks

[Terry A]

What are ur thoughts on Johnson poet?

Im not big on him myself and tend to agree with Terry but it was an enjoyable and intresting read u posted so thanks

That's a big part of what I like about this History section. We're interested in each other's opinions & thoughts. Out of all of the regular members who know their stuff, we'll all have differing opinions on some fighters, agree about others, but no matter what, we all still treat one another with respect, as friends should always do anyway.

I like it that we all have something different to say and varied opinions. Otherwise, there would be no need of a forum, since we'd all just be saying the same thing.

Whoever reads this, don't tell anyone I said this, but I learn something new here every day. But keep that a secret...don't tell none of the other fellas I said that!

[StarshipTrooper]

What are ur thoughts on Johnson poet?

Im not big on him myself and tend to agree with Terry but it was an enjoyable and intresting read u posted so thanks

I have Johnson #3 all-time at Heavyweight. He was a terrific defensive fighter that set the gold standard for parrying punches and was excellent at rolling with them so as to avoid them landing cleanly.

Unlike the title of the article I do NOT consider Johnson the equal of Ali: As far as I'm concerned the only fighter that argument could be made for is Louis and after Ali and Louis in the top-2 spots there's a gap between 2 and 3. Ali and Louis are in a class by themselves.

Poet

[GJC]

For the most part they DID fight the best.....they just did it BEFORE they won their titles.....that's how they earned their title shot in the first place. You had to put in a LOT of fights against tough opponents before you'd even get a sniff at the title.....especially in the lower weight classes.
[/COLOR]

Hit the nail on the head there my friend and it's a point so often missed, it's also true for Dempey. Fact is most fighters from that era were in decline after winning the title. It's one point I do bear in mind when assessing Langford. As he never won a title it's hard to judge whether he too would have gone for an easy ride as champion. Given that he was shamefully overlooked he had to stay hungry and active. Probably phrased that badly and alienated all the Langford fans (of which I am a huge one) but food for thought
?

[The Surgeon]

I have Johnson #3 all-time at Heavyweight. He was a terrific defensive fighter that set the gold standard for parrying punches and was excellent at rolling with them so as to avoid them landing cleanly. Unlike the title of the article I do NOT consider Johnson the equal of Ali: As far as I'm concerned the only fighter that argument could be made for is Louis and after Ali and Louis in the top-2 spots there's a gap between 2 and 3. Ali and Louis are in a class by themselves. Poet

Cool. I will give him the number 1 spot for parrying, been watching a fair bit of him lately, well what i can anyway. His parrying was exceptional.

Ive just spent the last 3 hours down the gym and done a ton of sparring during which i went parry daft after watching Johnson and too be fair i was pretty good at it, its a good move as the opponent is left off balance and thus vulnerable.

Still i personally feel Johnson gets over rated. Spot on post tho about the old school fighters doing their best work PRE championship fights

[StarshipTrooper]

Cool. I will give him the number 1 spot for parrying, been watching a fair bit of him lately, well what i can anyway. His parrying was exceptional.

Ive just spent the last 3 hours down the gym and done a ton of sparring during which i went parry daft after watching Johnson and too be fair i was pretty good at it, its a good move as the opponent is left off balance and thus vulnerable.

Still i personally feel Johnson gets over rated. Spot on post tho about the old school fighters doing their best work PRE championship fights

Parrying seems to be a bit of a lost art in boxing. The last fighter I can remember really standing out as a great parrier was Larry Holmes.

Poet

[nomadman]

Parrying seems to be a bit of a lost art in boxing. The last fighter I can remember really standing out as a great parrier was Larry Holmes.

Although it's not a fight I recommend anyone (re)watch, Wladimir demonstrated some effective parrying versus Sultan Ibragimov.

[Spartacus Sully]

Although it's not a fight I recommend anyone (re)watch, Wladimir demonstrated some effective parrying versus Sultan Ibragimov.

from what i just watched all i saw was wlad knocking the jab down, this isnt parrying. sultans jab is a low jab so hes bringing it up while wlads knocking it down, the forces are fighting each other.

when you parry you push with the punch,wlad should have been parrying the jab twords his right not down.

1.the parry goes with the punch adding force in the direction the punch is going setting the opponent off balance.

2. the parry goes to the left or the right with the punch, not down leaving you open for a faint counter.

[DarkTerror88]

Great Article. I also agree heavily with the context of things being if the utmost importance.

And Terry that is also why i like the history section. It is a learning experience for a young'un like myself.