Did Sonny take a dive?

[Debopam Roy]

Here's how I see it. Liston got hit, maybe it was a hard hit, but he could definitely had got back up, but he didnt, because he went into the fight intending to lose it for whatever reason. He saw that this knockdown was a good chance to throw the fight and make it seem believable...

[Andyland]

Sonny takes a dive?

The punch was right on the button and the knockdown was for real.

What looked phony to me was Sonny falling over again after he was down
This looked like someone trying to make the effects of the punch look
more damaging than what it was.

Regardless, Sonny did get up and was willing to continue the fight.

Bottom line: real punch, bizarre ending

[jaded]

I saw an interview/documentary with Liston on the subject and he said that he was very uncomfortable being in the ring that night because he had received death threats from the Nation of Islam and thought he was going to be shot. He eluded to wanting to get out of there as soon as possible and chuckled as if to say "you know what I mean". He pretty much admitted to taking a dive without actually using those words.

[edgarg]

i never understood how ppl can question if a punch landed or not, it clearly did!

you can see ali throw the punch, you cant see it connect, but what you do see is listons head snapping to the right as if he got hit on the left side of the face.

he clearly got hit. you might not see the punch make contact but you see it until its like an inch away from his face with nothing to block it but listons head. the only movement listons head makes is as if got hit coincidentally right as the punch would have landed. go figure.

theres no doubt liston got dropped, the question is could he have gotten up? i think he could have, then again i dont think he took a dive. i think liston was waiting for walcott to do his job and escort ali to a neutral corner, until he does the count shouldnt start.

once he had, liston got up. then the timekeeper said liston was down for more than 10 seconds so walcott called the fight. but liston could have been down for 10 minutes as long as ali isnt in a neutral corner, which he wasnt. the ref screwed up, simple as that.

The facts are that Ali connected with a punch, but he was going backwards and it was basically an arm punch. His feet were not in the right position for a heavy punch. He never would knock out a guy like Liston with one punch is he tried for 100 years. As can be seen, Liston carefully planted both hands in front of him to cushion the fall.

Liston was definitely scared of the black muslims who were going to kill him. He was a simple, completely uneducated man who couldn't even read, and allowed himself to be pushed around by those in "authority" making him go to a priest to learn to read, and to "adjust" himself into society. Things that nobody above the age of 12 would stand for. His wife stood by him all the time and said that he was a gentle, good humoured person.

Of course she's prejudiced, but he must have been very good to her and she loved him. At the same time, he was influenced by gamblers and other crooks. When he was forced to divest himself of them, he probably didn't know what to do. To appeal to the police for protection would have been the last thing he'd do.

And, by the way, It was Nat Fleischer who called the referee's attention to the fact that 10 seconds had gone by, and Walcott, not knowing what to do, instead of making Ali go to a neutral corner, let the fight go on. He stopped it when Liston was on his feet and fighting back. You are right, the ref messed it up.

Liston was never counted out by the ref The gamblers must have made millions. For the original return really trained, which he hadn't done for years. Liston was favoured by the bookies to win, and only Ali's hernia prevented the fight as scheduled. I seem to recall that the return fight was in a small out-of-the-way hall in Maine which held only about 2,000 people. ... A curious ending.

[Miburo]

You can see Ali himself saying something like "he laid down, he laid down" to his corner before his entourage convinces him otherwise. I trust the initial impression of the man who was in there with him. He definitely threw the fight.

[Anthony342]

I agree with this. Walcott was busy trying to get Ali to a neutral corner. He hadn't started a count so there was no reason for Liston to hurry and get up.

And to the poster who said the time keeper told the ref to call the fight, that is untrue. Nat Fleisher, editor of "The Ring" told Walcott to much time had passed and to stop the fight. Walcott blew it because Fleisher had nothing to do with the fight, he was a spectator only. So no, Liston did not throw the fight. He was legitimately dropped and Walcott simply mishandled the situation.

Worst referee job ever?

[Scott9945]

Worst referee job ever?

If you're talking about incompetence rather than corruption, then yes, probably so.

[Panamaniac]

You can see Ali himself saying something like "he laid down, he laid down" to his corner before his entourage convinces him otherwise. I trust the initial impression of the man who was in there with him. He definitely threw the fight.

Ali was pissed! After all that training and a postponement, he came to rumble. That was analogous to a woman getting all worked-up by extended foreplay, only to be curtailed by premature ejaculation.

[BennyST]

The facts are that Ali connected with a punch, but he was going backwards and it was basically an arm punch. His feet were not in the right position for a heavy punch. He never would knock out a guy like Liston with one punch is he tried for 100 years. As can be seen, Liston carefully planted both hands in front of him to cushion the fall.

They are the facts are they Edgarg? Interesting how you interpret pure speculation and opinion as fact.

[Anthony342]

If you're talking about incompetence rather than corruption, then yes, probably so.

Then what about corruption? A referee paid off? Maybe Richard Steele in one of Chavez' fights, like with Taylor 1 or Randall 1?