Joe Louis vs Larry Holmes

[Tha Greatest]

Muchmoore,

I don't understand how u have Liston before Frazier...Tyson before Louis, Dempsey, Frazier, and Holmes...


and you don't have George Foreman on the list....

[Muchmoore]

Well, Foreman beat Frazier so easily both times that i dont think that Joe would have beaten Liston, who was pretty much a better version of Foreman IMO.

Tyson in his prime was a force to be reckoned with. He had one of the fastest set of hands in the history of heavyweight boxing, he had great power, which is evident in all of his fights, he had very good defense and head movement in his prime (watch him fight before Douglas, he was hard to hit)and he had a good chin, which was evident in any round of the Lennox Lewis fight, any round of the Buster Douglas fight, and the 12th round of the Bonecrusher Smith fight.

All in all, i have him second all time, behind Ali. Louis didnt have the best chin(im not saying he had a glass jaw or anything, just he didnt have a great chin) and i see Tyson sparking him out early. Holmes would be a tough fight for Mike, but Holmes would lose a close UD. Frazier is too slow of a starter for Tyson, and he loses in 2 rounds, and Dempsey-Tyson would be a slugfest, but i favor Tyson due to his edge in hand speed.

Foremans 11th in my list, and my list always changes, so this time next week Foreman will possibly be in my top ten lol.

[M26]

Well, Foreman beat Frazier so easily both times that i dont think that Joe would have beaten Liston, who was pretty much a better version of Foreman IMO.

Tyson in his prime was a force to be reckoned with. He had one of the fastest set of hands in the history of heavyweight boxing, he had great power, which is evident in all of his fights, he had very good defense and head movement in his prime (watch him fight before Douglas, he was hard to hit)and he had a good chin, which was evident in any round of the Lennox Lewis fight, any round of the Buster Douglas fight, and the 12th round of the Bonecrusher Smith fight.

All in all, i have him second all time, behind Ali. Louis didnt have the best chin(im not saying he had a glass jaw or anything, just he didnt have a great chin) and i see Tyson sparking him out early. Holmes would be a tough fight for Mike, but Holmes would lose a close UD. Frazier is too slow of a starter for Tyson, and he loses in 2 rounds, and Dempsey-Tyson would be a slugfest, but i favor Tyson due to his edge in hand speed.

Foremans 11th in my list, and my list always changes, so this time next week Foreman will possibly be in my top ten lol.

I really can't find a good reason to consider Mike Tyson the second greatest heavyweight of all time. And I can not in my wildest dreams see him defeating Joe Louis, who I consider to be the greatest heavyweight ever. Louis would tie him up, counter his attacks and knock him out in no more then 10 rounds max.

Mike Tyson had speed, power and a good chin, but he had less than average stamina (considering that he lost much of his explosiveness and power after 5-6 rounds in his prime) and NO heart. The man caved in when facing a foe with a heartbeat. He lost his title at 23 and must be considered one of the most overrated heavyweights in history, considering that so many have him in the top-five list.

Don't get me wrong, I was a huge fan of the young Mike Tyson, and the man definitely had a lot of raw talent. He deserves to be placed among the ten greatest heavyweights in history, but just barely.

I rate Mike Tyson the 10th greatest heavyweight of all time.

[Muchmoore]

[QUOTE=M26
The man caved in when facing a foe with a heartbeat. He lost his title at 23 and must be considered one of the most overrated heavyweights in history, considering that so many have him in the top-five list.


[/QUOTE]

Thats the most idiotic thing i hear about Mike Tyson (no offense meant lol . Your saying, that out of the 50 men he beat, no one came to fight? Come on, you know deep down that isnt true. True, Bruce Seldon was terrifed of Tyson, along with Micheal Spinks and severel other fighters, but none were so scared that they couldnt fight back.

Watch Tyson-Bruno 1,2. Bruno came to fight, and was throwing everything he had at Mike, but he was stopped two times.

Razor Ruddock wasnt scared of Mike either. Granted, he was wary, but he came to fight and at the time Tyson fought him Ruddock was a tough fighter and no pushover.

Larry Holmes wasnt scared of Mike either. Granted, he was 38 years old and past his prime, but he was still a very good fighter, and later in his career, at the age of 42, he beat Ray Mercer and gave Evander Holyfield a tough fight.

The same goes for Tony Tubbs, Frans Botha, and a good deal of other oppontants of Tyson.

That entire Mike caved in like a deck of cards when pressed is incorrect, and he had heart, which he proved in the Lennox Lewis fight, Evander Holyfield fights, Buster Douglas fight, and the 12th round of the Bone Crusher Smith fight.

[M26]

[QUOTE=Muchmoore]

Thats the most idiotic thing i hear about Mike Tyson (no offense meant lol . Your saying, that out of the 50 men he beat, no one came to fight? Come on, you know deep down that isnt true. True, Bruce Seldon was terrifed of Tyson, along with Micheal Spinks and severel other fighters, but none were so scared that they couldnt fight back.

Watch Tyson-Bruno 1,2. Bruno came to fight, and was throwing everything he had at Mike, but he was stopped two times.

Razor Ruddock wasnt scared of Mike either. Granted, he was wary, but he came to fight and at the time Tyson fought him Ruddock was a tough fighter and no pushover.

Larry Holmes wasnt scared of Mike either. Granted, he was 38 years old and past his prime, but he was still a very good fighter, and later in his career, at the age of 42, he beat Ray Mercer and gave Evander Holyfield a tough fight.

The same goes for Tony Tubbs, Frans Botha, and a good deal of other oppontants of Tyson.

That entire Mike caved in like a deck of cards when pressed is incorrect, and he had heart, which he proved in the Lennox Lewis fight, Evander Holyfield fights, Buster Douglas fight, and the 12th round of the Bone Crusher Smith fight.

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Ok, some of his foes "came to fight", but these were all mediocre opponents, some of them I would even dare calling bums. They lacked the skills needed to defeat Mike Tyson. Frank Bruno is one example. A decent fighter, but nothing special. And he even had Tyson in trouble in that fight. What if this was a prime Joe Frazier...? A prime Frazier with all his aggression, heart, stamina and lack of fear... Tyson would be in trouble, that I can guarantee you! By the second Bruno fight, Frank was clearly scared to death and seemed "frozen" at times. He gave Tyson an easy job there!

And I disagree when it comes to Tyson showing heart when fighting Douglas and Lewis. He almost didn't throw any punches, he just stood there and took a beating (proving he had a solid chin). That is not "heart". That is "giving up". If he had heart, he would throw all caution aside a go after the guy in front of him, no matter how outclassed he was. He would never, ever give up. That is heart. Muhammad Ali had heart, Joe Frazier had heart, Rocky Marciano had heart, etc. But Mike Tyson did not. When a fighter stuck around to fight (not run backwards scared, but fight) after 5 rounds or so, Tyson lost his cool. That is a simple fact of life. When he got knocked down, he never came back to win. Not ever! He did not believe in himself very much, and faced with a prime all-time fighter, he would lose every time. A past-his-prime 34-year-old Evander Holyfield (who earlier got kayoed by Bowe) proved this beyond any doubt.

My point is simple enough. Mike Tyson had more talent than most champions in boxing history, but his lack of heart makes it impossible to rank him in the top five. Like I said before, I barely have him in my top-ten.

[tommyhearns804]

If a fighter was afraid of Tysons hype or not does that have anything to do with them being world class fighters?That is what Tyson fanboys will never grasp.He fought nobody.His best wins came over a washed up Holmes and a blown up light heavyweight in Spinks.That is it for Tysons career.Piling up a record or C and D opponenst does not make you great.You need to fight world class fighters or hall of fame fighters and win to be great.
Ruddock was a bum both Morisson and Lewis knocked him out alot quicker than Tyson did which means either they were better boxers or had way more power.
Bruno was slow and fought like a coward but yet had Tyson in big trouble with just one uppercut.If Bruno went after Tyson he would of knocked Tyson out.
Tony Tubbs and Botha were both average fighters.
Lol Tyson showed heart againt Douglas?Being knocked out by a complete class chin bum fighter is showing heart?Are you crazy child?Frazier showed heart against Foreman.Ali showed heart against Shavers.Bowe showed heart against Golota.But Tyson showed heart against Douglas?Lewis toyed with Tyson and could of knoced him out whenever he wanted too.And eventually did knocked him out.This same Lewis couldnt even knock down a washed up Holyfield and you know why?Because Holyfield has heart and has a better chin than Tyson.Tyson has so much heart that is why he quit on his stool against McBride.How many people in here think Ali,Foreman,Holyfield,Frazier,Quarry,Chuvalo ,Tua, ect ect ect would of quit on their stool to a piece of trash like McBride?Non of you and you know why ?Because these fighters had heart and alot better chin than Tyson could ever dream of having.
Tyson had more talent tham most heavyweight champions?Which Tyson was this?Tyson never showed any real talent.He never showed world class power because he never knocked out a world class fighter.He never showed a great chin.He was knocked out 5 times.His head movement went bye bye when ever he fought somebody who fought back.Tyson isnt a top 5 fighter a top 10 fighter or even a top 20 fighter.He was just a boxer in the right place at the right time.A cowardly rapist who was better at beating women than beating world class fighters but yet he will always have loser fans who try to put him in the same class of the true greats.

[Muchmoore]

How do you become a two time undisputed champ of the world and fight "nobody?"

[M26]

Because he fought during a crappy period. Thats why, man. Tyson is overrated by many, and certainly by you. He was good, and could have become great, but never did.

[tommyhearns804]

M26 like i tell everybody don't waste your time with Muchmoore.The guy is a complete moron.The ****** continues to say Liston is a better fighter than Foreman yet the best person Liston beat was a natural middleweight in Floyd Patterson.Yet Foreman beat Frazier than man he has on his top 10 heavyweight greats list 2 times.
Holyfield already beat Tyson 2 times so why isnt Holyfield about Tyson?Holyfield is older than Tyson so don't say Tyson was past his prime.Lewis already knocked out Tyson and Lewis is also older than Tyson.
Tyson could of never been great because he lacked the chin,heart and power to beat the true greats.Number 1 Lewis toyed with Tyson that is why Tyson lasted some rounds.Lewis knew Tyson didnt have the power to hurt him so he played with him but he could of ended it any time he wanted.Douglas has no punch period.But he still hurt Tyson through out the fight before he knocked him out.I dont care if it took 1 punch of a hundred he was knocked out by a man who couldnt punch.Do you believe Douglas would knock out a prime 23 or 24 year old Foreman,Ali,Frazier,Lyle,Bowe,Holyfield ect ect?Hell no because each of these fighters had great chins and more heart than Tyson could dream of having.Tysons so called power is highly overrated.He never knocked out anybody worth mentioning.Tyson padded his record fighting who?Bums.Every fighter who fought both a old Foreman and Tyson said Foreman hits alot harder.Everybody who fought Lewis and Tyson said Lewis hits harder.Everybody who fought Morrison and Tyson said Morrison hits harder.This may seem funny but Micheal Moorer probably hits harder than Tyson.Moorer was able to hurt Holyfield in their first and second fights.This is the main reason Moorer was knocked out in their second fight.He hurt Holyfield and knew he could hurt him again so he kept trying to go for the knock out and Holyfield kept countering him and hurting him.Tyson never showed he could hurt Holyfield at all and that is why he bit Holyfield in their second fight because he realized he could not hurt Holyfield but Holyfield could hurt him.
Tysons hand speed and his little head movement were cute until he was hit and then it went bye bye.He would just follow you around allowing you to hold him once he got hit.Tysons skill went out the door when he fought somebody who wasnt a bum and wasnt afraid of him.And i dont even have to explain who Tyson had no heart.
Based on what Muchmoore is saying Tyson was past his physical prime at 23 before the Douglas fight.So why is it that Foreman could fight Brigghs when he was 48 and win (as you people know Foreman was robbed in this fight)And Foreman was never once hurt by Briggs who punches alot harder than Douglas?If Foreman so special that at 48 he is still in his physical prime?Tyson is the only fighter who so called prime ended before he was 24.Tyson was in his prime for the Douglas fight.Douglas just proved if you went out their and tried to beat Tyson you could.Douglas wasnt a big puncher and the man could not take a punch(Douglas was knocked out 5 times before he even faced Tyson)Tyson isnt a top 20 great.
Here is the logical list of all time greats.And i wont just put somebody there because they had a lot of title defenses against nobodys or because they are deand people show respect for them.All time greats mean you could fight in any time period and still rule.Here is the list in no particular order.
1.Ali. 2 Foreman. 3 Frazier. 4 Lewis 5. Bowe. 6 Holyfield. 7 Holmes. 8 Norton. 9 Lyle and you may wonder why he is up here .Let me explain it to you quick.LYle turned pro at 28 he was 34 when he fought Foreman so if you believe Ali was past his prime at 34 then Lyle was too.So basically we never seen a in his prime Lyle fight.But based on his fights with Shavers and Foreman he showed great power and a really good chin and great heart.
But again what does this have to do wiht Louis and Holmes lol.Talk about Tyson in other Tyson related post this is for Louis and Holmes and i still think Holmes would stop Louis.

[Troy Fine]

holmes i believe would of lost to loius...not only did loius have more experience he was a better counter puncher and hit harder