Did Sonny take a dive?

[Panamaniac]

Did Sonny Liston put on an academy award-deserving performance by his reaction to the so-called "phantom punch?" Or was he really nailed and knocked off his feet by a solid Clay (Ali) right hand? Why am I raising this seemingly resolved issue after all these years and a zillion replays? Due to a few responses on this thread.

[BennyST]

He was definitely dropped by a good, hard shot. I still don't understand why things like this aren't resolved. It's so clear on film. It's not whether he got hit and dropped or not, because that is indisputable. He did. It's whether he could have gotten back up, but decided not to.

You can clearly see the punch land very cleanly and obviously very hard as his entire back ripples from the effect of the punch landing.

I think he was dropped hard, but then chose not to get up as he already knew the outcome.

[Panamaniac]

You can clearly see the punch land very cleanly and obviously very hard as his entire back ripples from the effect of the punch landing.

Do you mean as clearly shown here in slo mo?

[vbtube]prxnGjKjxoo[/vbtube]

[antk]

There's no dispute that a punch was landed but it was not a knockout punch-certainly not enough to make Liston roll over as if poleaxed.
In 42 fights after Liston, Ali had only 6 KO'S. In his 62 fights he had only one other first round KO (ROBINSON 1-2-0). Ali was not a puncher. The phantom punch was never seen again-either before or after Liston! Liston took a dive!

[BennyST]

There's no dispute that a punch was landed but it was not a knockout punch-certainly not enough to make Liston roll over as if poleaxed.
In 42 fights after Liston, Ali had only 6 KO'S. In his 62 fights he had only one other first round KO (ROBINSON 1-2-0). Ali was not a puncher. The phantom punch was never seen again-either before or after Liston! Liston took a dive!

It was a knockdown punch. Not a KO shot, but certainly enough to hurt him. He realised what he was in for and decided against it.

[#1Assassin]

Do you mean as clearly shown here in slo mo?

[vbtube]prxnGjKjxoo[/vbtube]

i never understood how ppl can question if a punch landed or not, it clearly did!

you can see ali throw the punch, you cant see it connect, but what you do see is listons head snapping to the right as if he got hit on the left side of the face.

he clearly got hit. you might not see the punch make contact but you see it until its like an inch away from his face with nothing to block it but listons head. the only movement listons head makes is as if got hit coincidentally right as the punch would have landed. go figure.

theres no doubt liston got dropped, the question is could he have gotten up? i think he could have, then again i dont think he took a dive. i think liston was waiting for walcott to do his job and escort ali to a neutral corner, until he does the count shouldnt start.

once he had, liston got up. then the timekeeper said liston was down for more than 10 seconds so walcott called the fight. but liston could have been down for 10 minutes as long as ali isnt in a neutral corner, which he wasnt. the ref screwed up, simple as that.

[Barn]

I agree with this post.

As you can see at 1:50 in this clip, Sonny is a very, very bad actor.



He doesn't look out of it to me. He looks very aware of what he's doing. After rolling about for a bit maybe he had second thoughts as he gets up instantly without much bother, and then the fight is stopped after some of the worst refereeing in history from Jersey Joe Walcott who listened to Nat Fleisher (I think) who said "he's been down for 10 seconds" and JJW thought that meant the fight was off and the neutral corner rule just wasn't in existence.

[BKM-2010]

Liston fought on, remember. After he got up both guys fought on, so he did not take a dive even if he faked the knockdown, which he didn't.

[Ray Corso]

Ali opens the fight with the lead right and circles left the entire round timing Sonnys steps and looking for the opening. Its a perfect shot the ripples all the way down Sonnys right side plus he was leaning in which adds to the punches effect!!
Getting up is another thing!!!!!! HA!!!! I believe he was stunned but the fall back he does looks like BS to me!!
You have to remember that a younger Clay sparred with Sonny in the Miami gym and really had no problems with Liston at that time. Thats why Dundee and the backers felt it was the perfect time to take the title. Sonnys connections got screwed because they thought like most "experts" that the kid would run but that Sonny could catch up after 7 or 8 rounds and get him out of there!. The second time around they went with the guarenteed finish!!!
Ray.

[JAB5239]

Liston fought on, remember. After he got up both guys fought on, so he did not take a dive even if he faked the knockdown, which he didn't.

I agree with this. Walcott was busy trying to get Ali to a neutral corner. He hadn't started a count so there was no reason for Liston to hurry and get up.

And to the poster who said the time keeper told the ref to call the fight, that is untrue. Nat Fleisher, editor of "The Ring" told Walcott to much time had passed and to stop the fight. Walcott blew it because Fleisher had nothing to do with the fight, he was a spectator only. So no, Liston did not throw the fight. He was legitimately dropped and Walcott simply mishandled the situation.