B. Leonard/Ali breakdown

[JAB5239]

Since Stone Roses, aka Rolling Stone, Gay Hymns and a dozen other names that have been banned has me on ignore I decided to do start my own thread and break down these two great fighters.

Personally I rate Leonard higher than Ali. I think he was the better all around fighter, fought the better competition and multiple times, and was the best fighter in the toughest era of lightweights.

Ali on the other hand fought his fair share of greats, fought in the toughest era of heavyweights and is arguably the greatest heavyweight ever (though I rank Louis ahead of him), so I can understand arguments for him even if I disagree.

This is my breakdown of both fighters. I've only used their hall of fame opponents to make these determinations, but both fought the best of the best at their respective weight classes. You will also have to excuse some of the math as it is not exact. While compiling these numbers on the ages of these two fighters and their respective opponents I only did their age in years at the time of each fight. Therefore these numbers will be slightly off for every fighter, but very close just the same.

Here goes.....

Ali's resume of HOF fighters

Archie Moore
Sonny Liston (2x)
Floyd Patterson (2x)
Joe Frazier (3x)
Bob Foster
Ken Norton (3x)
George Foreman
Larry Holmes

Ali's record against HOFers

11-3

Ali's average age when fighting them

29

HOF opponents average age

32

Benny Leonards resume of HOF fighters

Jimmy McLarnin
Lew Tendler (2x)
Rocky Kansas (4x)
Jack Britton (3x)
Johnny Dundee (6x)
Ted (Kid) Lewis
Johnny Kilbane
Freddie Welsh (3x)

Leonards record against HOFers

14-5-2

Leonards average age when fighting them

21

HOF opponents average age

26

Like I said, these numbers may be a bit off, but they're close. Going by the numbers, what we know of both fighters opponents and the film I've seen of both Ali and Leonard as well as the many newspaper accounts, magazine articles etc., its my opinion Benny Leonard should be rated higher p4p. No knock on Ali, he was a great fighter, just not as great as Leonard in my humble opinion.

Opinions?

[roxy]

Whats is thier records in title bouts, that is a comparison I'd be interested in.
How many HOFers they fought can be deceptive because it could have been long after they were any good. Pat Lawlor has wins over Duran and Benitez, you never hear about him. And good ol Darren Maciunski beat Meldrick Taylor and Buddy McGirt, get my point.

[Joey Giardello]

Since Stone Roses, aka Rolling Stone, Gay Hymns and a dozen other names that have been banned has me on ignore I decided to do start my own thread and break down these two great fighters.

Personally I rate Leonard higher than Ali. I think he was the better all around fighter, fought the better competition and multiple times, and was the best fighter in the toughest era of lightweights.

Ali on the other hand fought his fair share of greats, fought in the toughest era of heavyweights and is arguably the greatest heavyweight ever (though I rank Louis ahead of him), so I can understand arguments for him even if I disagree.

This is my breakdown of both fighters. I've only used their hall of fame opponents to make these determinations, but both fought the best of the best at their respective weight classes. You will also have to excuse some of the math as it is not exact. While compiling these numbers on the ages of these two fighters and their respective opponents I only did their age in years at the time of each fight. Therefore these numbers will be slightly off for every fighter, but very close just the same.

Here goes.....

Ali's resume of HOF fighters

Archie Moore
Sonny Liston (2x)
Floyd Patterson (2x)
Joe Frazier (3x)
Bob Foster
Ken Norton (3x)
George Foreman
Larry Holmes

Ali's record against HOFers

11-3

Ali's average age when fighting them

29

HOF opponents average age

32

Benny Leonards resume of HOF fighters

Jimmy McLarnin
Lew Tendler (2x)
Rocky Kansas (4x)
Jack Britton (3x)
Johnny Dundee (6x)
Ted (Kid) Lewis
Johnny Kilbane
Freddie Welsh (3x)

Leonards record against HOFers

14-5-2

Leonards average age when fighting them

21

HOF opponents average age

26

Like I said, these numbers may be a bit off, but they're close. Going by the numbers, what we know of both fighters opponents and the film I've seen of both Ali and Leonard as well as the many newspaper accounts, magazine articles etc., its my opinion Benny Leonard should be rated higher p4p. No knock on Ali, he was a great fighter, just not as great as Leonard in my humble opinion.

Opinions?

good post jab was an intresting read, but i still rate ali over benny, ali's wins over foreman and liston who at the time were fought of as unbeatable really stands out for me, and its the reason i pick ali over benny, besides that there really hard to split

[hhascup]

The average record of their opponents were as follows:

33-5 Ali
16.5-5 Leonard

[JAB5239]

good post jab was an intresting read, but i still rate ali over benny, ali's wins over foreman and liston who at the time were fought of as unbeatable really stands out for me, and its the reason i pick ali over benny, besides that there really hard to split

Thats fair. I appreciate and respect your opinion.

[MARKBNLV]

What i dont understand is how can people legitly rank benny leonard he fought in the 20s,there is barley any videos of his fights.

[JAB5239]

What i dont understand is how can people legitly rank benny leonard he fought in the 20s,there is barley any videos of his fights.

Well, we have some video of him. We have some video of his opponents. We have the opinions of trainers and other fighters as well as newspaper articles of the day. Granted its not as easy to judge a fighter from so long ago, but its not impossible if you take the time to put the pieces together either. Im no expert, but when I research a fighter I don't just look at his record or read one or two things about him. I read everything I can find a watch everything I can find. Just my opinion.

[QueensburyRules]

Since Stone Roses, aka Rolling Stone, Gay Hymns and a dozen other names that have been banned has me on ignore I decided to do start my own thread and break down these two great fighters.

Personally I rate Leonard higher than Ali. I think he was the better all around fighter, fought the better competition and multiple times, and was the best fighter in the toughest era of lightweights.

Ali on the other hand fought his fair share of greats, fought in the toughest era of heavyweights and is arguably the greatest heavyweight ever (though I rank Louis ahead of him), so I can understand arguments for him even if I disagree.

This is my breakdown of both fighters. I've only used their hall of fame opponents to make these determinations, but both fought the best of the best at their respective weight classes. You will also have to excuse some of the math as it is not exact. While compiling these numbers on the ages of these two fighters and their respective opponents I only did their age in years at the time of each fight. Therefore these numbers will be slightly off for every fighter, but very close just the same.

Here goes.....

Ali's resume of HOF fighters

Archie Moore
Sonny Liston (2x)
Floyd Patterson (2x)
Joe Frazier (3x)
Bob Foster
Ken Norton (3x)
George Foreman
Larry Holmes

Ali's record against HOFers

11-3

Ali's average age when fighting them

29

HOF opponents average age

32

Benny Leonards resume of HOF fighters

Jimmy McLarnin
Lew Tendler (2x)
Rocky Kansas (4x)
Jack Britton (3x)
Johnny Dundee (6x)
Ted (Kid) Lewis
Johnny Kilbane
Freddie Welsh (3x)

Leonards record against HOFers

14-5-2

Leonards average age when fighting them

21

HOF opponents average age

26

Like I said, these numbers may be a bit off, but they're close. Going by the numbers, what we know of both fighters opponents and the film I've seen of both Ali and Leonard as well as the many newspaper accounts, magazine articles etc., its my opinion Benny Leonard should be rated higher p4p. No knock on Ali, he was a great fighter, just not as great as Leonard in my humble opinion.

Opinions?

- -Bored, so a random trip down memory lane uncovers this Gemstone.

Ain't seen ye auld jabber in a while, so maybe this interesting blast from the past rouses him from his slumber.

Always thought Ali overrated, but at p4p, IBRO rates him highly. For some reason Benny has fallen out of favor, perhaps being too antiquated to properly remember.

What do you genii think?

[The Old LefHook]

Who among Leonard's opposition was considered a killer of the ages? Ali fought several such men and destroyed them. This not a judgement, but I do point out that I know of no big time killers on Leonard's resume, not that they were not excellent or great fighters. They were not considered by the public to be killers like Dempsey and Duran and Hearns, for three instances, men who were so dangerous that the public actually worried for the lives of their opponents. Which names represent that on Leonard's ledger, please? Can you point them out. It is not my strongest era. Thanks.

[Joe Beamish]

It's really hard for a heavyweight to be seen in a favorable light in a P4P comparison with any smaller fighter, especially a lightweight or welterweight. The whole idea of "pound for pound" is to cut the big guys down to size.

But if there's one HW who can be considered among the P4P best boxers of all time, it's Ali. Which says a lot right there.