Do You Agree With This? (From Bert Sugar Rankings)

[Scott9945]

I disagreed as soon as I saw the name Bert Sugar. To me he is more of a boxing personality than a boxing expert or a boxing historian.

[IronDanHamza]

I definitely think Jimmy McLarnin is greater than Ray Leonard. IMO.

[RubenSonny]

I definitely think Jimmy McLarnin is greater than Ray Leonard. IMO.

Really? Why do you think that?

[StarshipTrooper]

5 is very accurate. Merchant likes to point out that Mexicans have alot of fighters(so do the Japanese)--well, the old time boxing world was mostly Americans. Boxing wasn't nowhere near as global as it is today...... so by Merchants thinking, today's fighters are much better than yesterday's since there are more of them. Take that larry, you dumb old man. You don't even know when you're fighting yourself!!!!!!
2,3 and 4 are dumb as hell.
1 is possible since Whitaker at times struggled vs guys with speed. He was matched with guys that suited his style alot.
Old fighters suck. Period.

^^^^^ Now that the Village Idiot has put his ******ed half-pence in we can get back to discussing this with people who actually know what the **** they're talking about :rolleyes9:

Poet

[IronDanHamza]

Really? Why do you think that?

It's argubale. Considering it is Ray Leonard after all. Ray Leonard is a great fighter.

But for me, McLarnin is Top 20 Minimum.

He beat two Top 20-25 ATG's IMO in Barney Ross and Tony Canzoneri.

Beat a long list of HOF'ers, almost the most in history if I'm not mistaken (Albeit some were worthless I.e Benny Leonard) but it's still an impressive feat.

Ray Leonard has undeniable quality. But does his quality compare to wins over Barney Ross and Tony Canzoneri? I'm not so sure.

[McGoorty]

It's argubale. Considering it is Ray Leonard after all. Ray Leonard is a great fighter.

But for me, McLarnin is Top 20 Minimum.

He beat two Top 20-25 ATG's IMO in Barney Ross and Tony Canzoneri.

Beat a long list of HOF'ers, almost the most in history if I'm not mistaken (Albeit some were worthless I.e Benny Leonard) but it's still an impressive feat.

Ray Leonard has undeniable quality. But does his quality compare to wins over Barney Ross and Tony Canzoneri? I'm not so sure.

Yeah, good points there, if you compare the names, AND if you are like me and have a problem with the fact R. Leonard only had 39 fights....... Just far too much inactivity, and McLarnin never even heard of that word.

[IronDanHamza]

Yeah, good points there, if you compare the names, AND if you are like me and have a problem with the fact R. Leonard only had 39 fights....... Just far too much inactivity, and McLarnin never even heard of that word.

And it doesn't stop there really.

Good wins over;

Lou Ambers
Pancho Villa
Billy Petrolle x2
Young Corbet 3
Sammy Mandell x2

I mean, that's one hell of a resume and I'm going off memory I think I have left some out.

Truley one of the greatest fighters of all time.

[RubenSonny]

It's argubale. Considering it is Ray Leonard after all. Ray Leonard is a great fighter.

But for me, McLarnin is Top 20 Minimum.

I agree looking deeper into Maclarnins resume its arguable I'd still put Leonard ahead though.

He beat two Top 20-25 ATG's IMO in Barney Ross and Tony Canzoneri.

Leonard beat a top 10 ATG (many have him in top 5) in Duran, and a win over Hearns is greater than a win over Ross or Canzoneri, granted both are probably greater fighters than Hearns but I don't think you'd disagree that Hearns is a tougher fight. I'd go as far as to say Leonard wins over Benitez and Hagler are close to the quality of those wins but not quite there.

Beat a long list of HOF'ers, almost the most in history if I'm not mistaken (Albeit some were worthless I.e Benny Leonard) but it's still an impressive feat.

Thats just a face value fact and not really putting wins into context. Not all HOFers are equal in fact there is a such a huge range in quality between some HOFers, a win over Ray Robinson is a fair few galaxies apart from a win over Barry McGuigan. Additionally, when is more important to who as you touched on, the fact that atleast 5 of those win over HOF'ers are worthless is proof, Labarba x3, Fields and Leonard are all worthless. There may even be more, I don't know, I don't respect the HOF enough to know all the fighters. Also there are many fighters who aren't in the HOF who are greater than some of those inducted.

[StarshipTrooper]

Thats just a face value fact and not really putting wins into context. Not all HOFers are equal in fact there is a such a huge range in quality between some HOFers, a win over Ray Robinson is a fair few galaxies apart from a win over Barry McGuigan. Additionally, when is more important to who as you touched on, the fact that atleast 5 of those win over HOF'ers are worthless is proof, Labarba x3, Fields and Leonard are all worthless. There may even be more, I don't know, I don't respect the HOF enough to know all the fighters. Also there are many fighters who aren't in the HOF who are greater than some of those inducted.

I prefer using the ATG label rather than HOF as the IBHOF isn't exactly a byword for greatness. A number of non-greats have gotten in while certified greats still wait and may never make it.

It's also important to consider what career stage an ATG name on someone's resume was. A win over a washed-up great is of no value at all while a win over a great who's somewhat past-it is only partial value. Holmes' win over a prime Mike Weaver is worth far more than his win over a washed-up Ali.

Poet

[RubenSonny]

I prefer using the ATG label rather than HOF as the IBHOF isn't exactly a byword for greatness. A number of non-greats have gotten in while certified greats still wait and may never make it.

It's also important to consider what career stage an ATG name on someone's resume was. A win over a washed-up great is of no value at all while a win over a great who's somewhat past-it is only partial value. Holmes' win over a prime Mike Weaver is worth far more than his win over a washed-up Ali.

Poet

That pretty much reaffirms my position. Whitaker is about 50 times the fighter Vargas was, but you would have to an idiot to rate Trinidads win over Whitaker as greater than his win over Vargas.