When did Muhammad Ali start to slide ?

[Dynamite Kid]

When did Muhammad Ali start to slide ? ive been watching a lot of Ali the last few days trying to work out when exactly he started to slide.

I think it was around the time he lost to Norton and labored against Lyle, Bugner 2 but i believe the Wepner fight might have taken a lot out of him, although he did not take much if any punishment in the fight it was a grueling pace for him, i think he dropped down to the canvas at the end of the fight through tiredness if i remember right.

Lyle was arguably infront in the fight, although i had it a draw at the time of the stoppage.


I thought his balance looked horrible against Bugner 2 and that is usually an indication of a fighter who is on the slide. If you disagree with me then im sure you'd agree that if Ali was not on the slide before Frazier fight he certainly was after it.

Then came the 3rd Frazier fight.

Since the 1st Frazier fight Ali had looked decent/good against Ellis without looking spectacular, he put in a poor performance against Mathis in a dull fight, he beat Blin but not really worth mentioning besides the fact he scored a stoppage, he had what i believe was an impressive performance against a tough Chuvalo whom put more pressure on him this time and had a little more success, then he fought Quarry and i thought Ali looked in great form for this fight, he beat Quarry with ease. Patterson actually won a few early rounds but i think Ali was playing with him because he knew eventually the extra size would take its toll, same story with Bob Foster really, he won a few rounds with the jab but once Ali established his size advantage he put Foster down multiple times. I thought Ali looked excellent against Joe Bugner 1 and then came the loss to Norton which is somewhat surprising to me because of how good i thought Ali looked against Bugner.

I know Ali still went on to beat ,Frazier, Shavers, Norton again but i think that is mark of how good he was more so than how much he had left. Most people have their reservations about whether he won the Norton 3 fight to (not me)

So when do you think Muhammad Ali start to slide, he does not necessarily have to be shot but you get where im coming from

[mickey malone]

Norton definitely.. Good post..

[boxingbuff]

Ali took Norton lightly and was not in good condition.

Plus Norton had a style that would have bothered a prime Ali.

Ali was never the same after the Triller in Manilla.He left a piece of himself in the ring that night.Two fights later he got beat by Jimmy Young and later in that year by Norton easily in 1976.Young and Norton both got robbed.

Ali's next fight against Evengalista he looked terrible,and his next fight against Shavers he could not get out of the way of Shavers bombs.It was an even fight that Ali won by a gift.

So it was after the Triller in Manilla that he started to slide....And badly.

It could also been said he slipped after his 4 year lay-off,when he no longer had the quick reflexes to avoid punches as well,and his legs were not what they used to be.

[Dynamite Kid]

Norton definitely.. Good post..

Ali took Norton lightly and was not in good condition.

Plus Norton had a style that would have bothered a prime Ali.

Ali was never the same after the Triller in Manilla.He left a piece of himself in the ring that night.Two fights later he got beat by Jimmy Young and later in that year by Norton easily in 1976.Young and Norton both got robbed.

Ali's next fight against Evengalista he looked terrible,and his next fight against Shavers he could not get out of the way of Shavers bombs.It was an even fight that Ali won by a gift.

So it was after the Triller in Manilla that he started to slide....And badly.

It could also been said he slipped after his 4 year lay-off,when he no longer had the quick reflexes to avoid punches as well,and his legs were not what they used to be.

Cheers Mickey.


Good post!

You know i hear kids in NSB saying stuff like ........Ali's skills/talent are overated and that is pure bull****!


Ali was a master at drawing leads (head feints) and countering, his accuracy was excellent and his power underrated to, not to say he was big hitter but he could take you out late after he had broken you down. Lyle had never been stopped i dont think, and we know how tough Bonavena, Quarry are/were.

Disagree about Norton 3 though

[TheGreatA]

After the third Frazier fight.

[Sugarj]

I'm with GreatA and Boxingbuff, Manilla took something from Ali. From his speach, grace, reflexes and accuracy. I've said it before, I think the whole Parkinsons syndrome started there........probably in rounds 5 and 6, Frazier's left hooks in these rounds were belters.

I know it sounds geeky and really very sad but I can often pick the year out, whether it be 1976-1981 from Ali's voice and articulation in interviews. All started with Manilla! His motor skills went down after every fight, Dr Ferdie Pacheco left after the Shavers fight, he was worried about brain damage. Angelo Dundee noticed him starting to stutter two years before he retired and states that he thought Ali was fighting with the early signs of Parkinsons as early as the Spinks fights.

But really, Ali did appear to peak in 1967 and was never as good again. When he came back in 1970 he wasn't as good. In his autobiography he says that it took him till the second Quarry fight in 1972 to 'find his legs' and I'd wager that the Ali of 1974 was as good as he ever was in the 70s. The second fight with Frazier was impressive, he near on danced 12 rounds and threw tones of combinations and no one can argue with what he did to Foreman later that year too.

[Dynamite Kid]

I'm with GreatA and Boxingbuff, Manilla took something from Ali. From his speach, grace, reflexes and accuracy. I've said it before, I think the whole Parkinsons syndrome started there........probably in rounds 5 and 6, Frazier's left hooks in these rounds were belters.

I know it sounds geeky and really very sad but I can often pick the year out, whether it be 1976-1981 from Ali's voice and articulation in interviews. All started with Manilla! His motor skills went down after every fight, Dr Ferdie Pacheco left after the Shavers fight, he was worried about brain damage. Angelo Dundee noticed him starting to stutter two years before he retired and states that he thought Ali was fighting with the early signs of Parkinsons as early as the Spinks fights.

But really, Ali did appear to peak in 1967 and was never as good again. When he came back in 1970 he wasn't as good. In his autobiography he says that it took him till the second Quarry fight in 1972 to 'find his legs' and I'd wager that the Ali of 1974 was as good as he ever was in the 70s. The second fight with Frazier was impressive, he near on danced 12 rounds and threw tones of combinations and no one can argue with what he did to Foreman later that year too.

I hear you there, i actually thought i could hear a slight slur in Ali's voice in the Ron Lyle pre fight preview, however i might be hearing something that is not there but that is the impression i was getting so.....


You know so many people talk about the Norton 2/3 fights being controversial and i actually think Ali won both, if anyone should hold a grudge against Ali i think it should be Jimmy Young, because i had Young beating Ali something like 9 rounds to 6.

[TheGreatA]

Not sure if I hear any slurring here and this was around the time Holmes fought Norton:

[Sugarj]

I had Ali winning Norton 2 by one round........the last! But I had Norton 3 a draw.

As for the Young fight I didn't score it on last viewing but didn't feel that Young quite deserved the verdict as awful as Ali was that night. The judges gave it to Ali by too great a margin though.

[Dynamite Kid]

Not sure if I hear any slurring here and this was around the time Holmes fought Norton:

I dont know Machine i can hear a bit of sissing in his speech pattern.