Is Wlad an All Time Great Heavyweight?

[knn]

Well, the first point? What about the 40-0 world unified champion George Foreman who had beaten the undefeated Joe Frazier in a couple of rounds, along with other great fighters like Ken Norton.

I was asking for an impressive performance of Ali, not of Foreman. Foreman is a good boxer. Ali is a pain to watch (except his cruiser fights). Frazier is also nice to watch.

The second point? No, it's not about KO's, but it is about winning and losing by KO three times to mediocre opposition is a pretty bad statement for an ATG heavyweight.

This will be the only argument left against Klitschko. Because in all other areas Klitschko is superior to Ali & co. Being KOed 3 times is the only thing left that 70ies-fans have to say. But let me repeat what I wrote at
http://www.boxingscene.com/forums/sh...14#post5588714
Klitschko has more KOlosses on his record than Ali because Klitschko TWICE AS MANY heavyweight opponents than Ali.

Wlad's first loss (Puritty) was in his 25th fight.
Ali's first loss was in Ali's 15th heavyweight (Ali's 10th real heavyweight fight = both boxers 200+) fight (Frazier).

Wlad's second loss (Sanders) was in Wlad's 45th fight.
Ali hasn't even fought so many 200+ opponents.

Supposedly the greatest heavyweight of all time if going by your suggestions.

I never ever claimed anything of that sort.

Tell me this? Do you actually think Wlad or Vit Klit are the greatest ever HW's?

No, I think Ali is the greatest ever heavyweight,

• because he managed to fool so many of fans & experts by "repetition indoctrination" ("I am the greatest")
• because he was lucky to not rematch Foreman
• because he invented rap

[knn]

Checked or watched? Here lies the rub I think, boxing is a sport best enjoyed by watching it.

How can someone WATCH ten thousands of fights for reach- or weight-advantages?

[knn]

Anyone in their right mind would say that Lewis at 256 was not at his absolute best, that has nothing to do with him being prime at 220 (a ridiculous stateme

Lewis' weight (median) against better opponents: 241lbs
Lewis' weight (median) against worse (= mainly beginning of his career) opponents: 230lbs

[knn]

Whoah, most of that was too confusing for me to understand

Confused by facts? Are you a 70ies fan?

So, Foreman fought guys that were smaller

Let me repeat for you:
Foreman fought the SMALLER, LIGHTER and BUMMIER opponents than Klitschko and NEEDED LONGER TO KO them while at the same time BEING HEAVIER THAN HIS OPPONENTs in 90% of the cases (as opposed to Ali's 75% outweiging and Klitschhko's 50% outweighing).

How else do you think could he managed to have 80+ fights and scoring only 4 KOs (3 heavies + 1 cruiser) in world title fights?

If he's taller than everyone, which he is by a lot, but he is outweighed by half that to me says that he is fighting fat, out of shape opponents.

Uff, are you another guy who wants to have not weight divisions but "athleticism divisions"... Good luck with your new proposal. It's divisions by WEIGHT for a reason.

[Roger Mellie]

yes prime Lewis vs prime Wlad -- Wlad KO4

Possible vit****s alt.

[knn]

Why would I argue with a guy that says Joe Frazier was "feather fisted?"

I am also the guy who called Muhammad Ali the "Sam Peter of the 70ies".

Why? BECAUSE I WATCHED all of Ali's fights. And he plods along like an overweight zombie. Cassius, the cruiser was fine. Ali, the heavy not.

I mean I don't know if I can complain too much because Ali was an overweight with Parkinson, thus it's actually a proof of his greatness how he managed to win those fights. But the fact that an overweight with Parkinson is at the top of the heavies in the 70ies shows once again what a crappy division it was then.

Regarding the Frazier = Featherfist problem: Can you imagine David Haye becoming a heavy and then fighting 20 fights and scoring only 10 KOs (= like Frazier)?

WHO CARES THAT DAVID HAYE WAS A POWERPUNCHER AT CRUISER?
Who cares that Joe Frazier was KOing cruisers? (Median KO-victim weight 190lbs).

Of the 10 KOs that Frazier scored against his 200+ opponents 6 were against bums (like Ron Stander 37-21 or Manuel Ramos 25-29) and the remaning 4 were against median 209lbs opponents, who also don't have stellar records (e.g. 2x Jimmy Ellis 40-12 who boxed as low as 155 in his career). HOW IN THE WOLD CAN SOMEONE with such a crappy KO record be considered a powerpuncher?

[knn]

At no point have I doubted Wlad being an all time great Heavyweight, but it's you who made the point that his competition has been on par with the likes of Louis, Holmes & Tyson, which is something I disagreed with.

I never claimed that Wlad's competition was on par with Louis. But Louis median weight was 200 lbs, and his opponents' median weight was 193 lbs.

In 64 of 68 fights Louis fought against cruisers, former cruisers, bums or was himself at cruiserweight. He plays in a different league than nowadays heavies. Having said that: Louis has a top record and is of course a top p4p fighter and an ATG. But just watch at these pics and you now that their physique doesn't look ANYTHING like Wlad or modern heavies:



Thus compare Louis with Juan Carlos Gomez or with David Haye.

[StarshipTrooper]

knn wouldn't know a fact if it bit him on the ass. Even so, since his premises are bad he could have all the "facts" in the world and his argument would still be ****e because a erronious premise causes the argument to fall apart by the rules of logic.

Poet

[knn]

knn wouldn't know a fact if it bit him on the ass.

Pinky Poet strikes again with one of his favorite words: "Ass"

No "lick", "suck" or "*****" today, Pinky?

Well, at least your sig features "******" and "nut-hugger".

[mickey malone]

Both Klits are good...

But NEITHER beat a 'Prime' Lewis... Period