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Old 08-15-2011, 08:20 PM
McGoorty
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mugwump View Post
A slave was disadvantaged from birth. Caesar certainly wasn't. Whilst the Julii family had hit hard times, they were nevertheless ranked as one of the most established in the patrician class with lineage stretching back into antiquity. Even without money that name had an awful lot of clout - and Caesar used every inch of it.

Look, I don't dispute the veracity of ancient Roman historians. But I do question the facts on which their evidence is based. It's impossible to know for sure whether even half of what writers such as Tacitus left for us is even remotely true. Back then historians were in no way obliged to concentrate solely on events as they happened. For instance, you'll struggle to find many instances of Roman historians disputing the maxim that Rome never fought a war for anything other than good reason.

Let's not forget that Rome around the time of Caesar was a rough place. Today in the West just about anyone can write a scathing critical history of somebody or another without fear of reprisals. Back then telling the truth (warts and all) could get you killed. Especially if your subject was a certified loonball such as Sulla, Tiberius or Caligula. Consider what happened to Cicero for having a little fun at Mark Antony's expense.

4,000 years is a long, long time. Yes, I'm sure your average Roman centurion was a formidable foe. And in a gladiatorial battle against unskilled and/or inexperienced fighters of today they would be the undoubted favourite. But in a boxing ring - where they would enter with no experience whatsoever (experience of fistfighting is NOT boxing experience) fighting against guys who have eat, drunk and slept boxing for 20 or more years) they would be soundly thrashed.

Let's not fall into the trap of thinking these guys were supermen with adamantium re-enforced bones. They were not. For all his achievements Caesar (like Alexander, Hannibal, Atilla the Hun, Genghis Khan, Napoleon, Richard the Lionheart & Saladin) was a man. Flesh and blood. You think he can go toe-to-toe with a Ray Robinson or a Stanley Ketchel with no experience and leave victorious? All I can say is let me know when the fight is on and I'll wager all my points against your man.
I was purely referring to the status and lack of money of Caesars family , of course he had a couple of slaves, but as a Patrician he was vastly disadvantaged, not as low as Sulla's though. For Caesar to reach the top from there was purely down to talent and energy.---- -------- It's true that roman writers always paid unfair pictures regarding their enemies,... in the Roman mind there were two people in the world, them, the superior race, and THEM. You can take Roman opinions of Barbarians or Carthaginians................... In regard to their treatment of other nations, they were truly disgracefull,...... it isn't easy to like Caesar, but he was a bit of an angel compared to his enemies, but he wasn't above using creatures like Clodius to fight other animals like Cassius and Marcus Porcius Cato,,,,,,,, or any of his forebears,,,,, if you want some evil criminals, it's hard to go past Cato's ancestor, Cato the Censor, a truly evil piece of garbage as ever lived,,,, he is the dog responsible for the extermination of Carthage,..... Or the bastard who put down Spartacus's rebellion,...... Crassus, who used the equally evil Lucius Cornelius Sulla's proscription lists to steal the wealth of tens of thousands of dead people,............... he killed them himself.------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- As for the evidence, you must understand they were using many sources that haven't come down to us, because of Christian fanatics who burnt 90% of all the ancient books and scrolls,..........................----------------------------------------------------- although beware of the historians under the emporers, when they are referring to anything concerned with the ruling dynasty,,,,,,,,,, They are writing FOR the Caesars, and are 97% lies and propaganda. One of the best sources for information about Julius is his enemy Cicero,.......... Cicero was intensly jealous of Caesar because Caesar outshone him in virtually anything, but even Cicero admits his greatness And His CLEMENCY,............ Cicero of course tries to paint Caesar in a bad light,.... but the two of them wrote extensively to each other and many letters survive,,,,,, they are the closest way to get to know the two men................. Evidence from Republican times had bias too,,,,,,,, but at least there were two sides of politics, so we get to hear some of the story,... In closing, yes Caesar did have a bit of a disadvantage, but I can see that you know enough about him to know about some of his upbringing, and the final proof of that is the fact that he grew up in the Subura,,.... That was the bad end of town and Every nobleman looked down on the whole lot of them, especially Caesar,, they hated him bad,,............................................. he got the last laugh.
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