I heard rumors that he did, is it true? cause there was defientily no phantom punch, you could see the punch land as clear as day, but Liston could've gotten up, cause the punch wasn't even that hard.

theres at least 5 threads on this on every boxing site with a forum

theres at least 5 threads on this on every boxing site with a forum

I was gonna say the same thing.

I was gonna say the same thing.

i actually third it

I heard rumors that he did, is it true? cause there was defientily no phantom punch, you could see the punch land as clear as day, but Liston could've gotten up, cause the punch wasn't even that hard.

I think Liston did throw the fight. The way you can tell is to watch his eyes in the film as he's about to get up and then falls back down. His eyes are completely clear.

I think Liston did throw the fight. The way you can tell is to watch his eyes in the film as he's about to get up and then falls back down. His eyes are completely clear.

...and a "crazy man" was dancing towards him. Liston thought Ali was nuts; and for all he knew Ali would have hit him as soon as he got up because Walcott didn't do his job and direct Ali to a neutral corner....or issue a count.


People can say Sonny threw this fight and maybe he did; but in my opinion it was just a botched job by an inexperienced referee. If Sonny threw the fight, that's the worst acting job I've ever seen....he even got back up and was fighting with Muhammad when Walcott stopped the fight on Nat Fleischer's direction......because the editor of Ring told him it was over.

Anyway, that's what I think happened....for the millionth time.

Here is an interesting quote from Mark Kram's Ghosts of Manila published in 2001:

"Sonny always refused to talk about the Miami fight . He would talk about Liston 2 [i.e. the second fight] saying, "Yeah, I sit down for that one. It weren't Clay. It was [i]them. The Moooslems. I got word, inside stuff, they were going to kill me." [from page 121]

Here is an interesting quote from Mark Kram's Ghosts of Manila published in 2001:

"Sonny always refused to talk about the Miami fight . He would talk about Liston 2 [i.e. the second fight] saying, "Yeah, I sit down for that one. It weren't Clay. It was [i]them. The Moooslems. I got word, inside stuff, they were going to kill me." [from page 121]

He also said what I said to another reporter....can't remember the guy's name; but considering "Ghosts of Manilla" is more or less an "anti-Ali" book, the use of that particular quote as oppossed to the other one doesn't surprise me.

I was gonna say the same thing.

But mine was the best, no?

Yeah, this is a relatively dead topic; at least until the next generation of boxing fans catces the Clay vs. Liston fights on ESPN Classic. Little whipper snappers...

There were multiple factors, including many of the above statements, which kept the fight from continuing. Most importantly, Sonny Liston's personal life kept his mind divided, and his heart out of the ring. Secondly, he thought Ali and the NOI were nuts, so he probably didn't want to open a giant can of worms. Third, the referee wasn't prepared, and niether was Liston, hence, the confusion. Finally, Ali did catch Liston off-gaurd with that punch and, while it wasn't packing a lot of power, it was fast enough to scramble a few eggs; at least for a few seconds. I think there's a quote from Liston about that punch in a book about Joe Frazier--ah...it's been too long, can't remember.