Jack Dempsey is an alltime great but I don't see him beating Vitali, because Vitali is like 6' 7" and 250 lbs and can take a good punch.

Vitali by KO!

What's your opinion??

Jess Williard was of similar size to Vitali if anything bigger and was subject to one of the most destructive defeats ever recorded at the hands of Dempsey. Whilst I think Vitali may have a chance against Dempsey I dont think that using Vitali's stats provides much insight as to how he would beat Dempsty.

Either way I think Dempseys hispanic heritage is much of the reason why he was considered to be so devastating.

Jess Williard was of similar size to Vitali if anything bigger and was subject to one of the most destructive defeats ever recorded at the hands of Dempsey. Whilst I think Vitali may have a chance against Dempsey I dont think that using Vitali's stats provides much insight as to how he would beat Dempsty.

Either way I think Dempseys hispanic heritage is much of the reason why he was considered to be so devastating.Willard was no Vitali.

Here is the fight,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_2pvIMalLM

Jack Dempsey is an alltime great but I don't see him beating Vitali, because Vitali is like 6' 7" and 250 lbs and can take a good punch.

Vitali by KO!

What's your opinion??

Willard was similar size and could also take a very good punch. Difference was that Vitali has more skills, speed and power. Dempsey could pull out a win I'm sure, Vitali would be the favourite but it's not a definate outcome.

true, Vitali is no Williard, but I still see Dempsey getting the victory.

Dempsey could hurt him for sure. Vitali was hurt by Lewis, Sanders, and to a lesser extent by Danny Williams. Dempsey was an all time great puncher, not just P4P but in actual force produced by his punches. Of all the 2k fighters, Vitali would be the biggest challenge for Dempsey because he wasn't just big and strong but also relatively quick and skilled. I think Dempsey is a greater finisher than Sanders or Lewis and would get him out of there when and if he does have him hurt. Vitali has a very good chin but no better than Willard's IMO. Willard has one of the ten best chins of any top heavyweight fighter and Dempsey dented it with the first significant punch of the fight. Vitali has the kind of power where if he hits you repeatedly, he will wear you down but I don't see him hurting Dempsey like Firpo did. Firpo was a anatomical freak with enormous hands for his size, dinosaur like bone structure, and was just so much bigger than the 220 lbs suggests, much like Jim Jeffries. He was a HUGE punch and anytime he hit a guy with the right hand, he hurt him. Dempsey, a bit slower of reflex by that fight, took the Argentinian's best stuff and came right back, clear headed, landing damaging punches with pinpoint accuracy. It's almost scary how Dempsey could go from queer street to sharp as a razor blade in a span of seconds. He was second to none in his recovery.

If Dempsey can hit you with any kind of regularity, he beats you period. He would catch Vitali, as so many lesser talents did, but he'll know what to do when he has him. Love Vitali but he isn't the one to beat Jack. Tyson, Ali, there I can see it, but not with Vitali.

All the names you mentioned were 50 to 70 lbs heavier then Dempsey. I'm pretty sure that Dempsey's punches were not as good as Lewis, Sanders or Williams!

A tough call. Vitali Klitschko would be the bigger and stronger fighter of the two, with Jack Dempsey being the toughest and hardest hitting.

Jack Dempsey definitely had the speed, explosiveness and power to hurt any foe, including this giant Ukrainian. I can see him coming in low, to explode in Vitali Klitschkos face with a barrage of bombs. This fight could very well end with a brutal stoppage.

On the other hand, Klitschko would pretty much dwarf Dempsey. Granted, Dempsey beat the living daylight out of Jess Willard, and always stated that he loved to fight the tall guys (because they made so easy targets), but Klitschko was no big plodding circus freak. He was a very talented boxer, who could move well considering his size. He also carried with him a thundering jab and more than decent power.

I would be rooting for Dempsey all the way, but Klitschko would be too big a challenge for him I believe. He would keep Dempsey at bay with that jab of his and use his weight and strength advantage to hold and tire Dempsey. I don't think Dempsey would get kayoed, but he would be in for a bad day at the office.

Vitali Klitscko by UD.

Gunstar you are wrong. Those guys were stronger but not as sharp hitting or quick as Dempsey. Dempsey hit over 1000 PSI, can't remember the exact number but it was up there, between 1000-1200, well enough to hurt any man in history if he hit them right on the chin. Once you hit with a certain amount of force, it all comes down to accuracy. Transfering that force onto an opponents chin, temple, or jawline.

I don't think Dempsey would necesarily get the knock otu. He fades in the later rounds, plus Vitali was never down. However, I can see him getting the decision easy as he has the better footwork and speed.

Dempsey by ud.

Vitali never fought anyone with remotely the combination of speed, power, balance and accuracy. He has a very good chin but Sanders and Lewis had him rocked.

Vitali never fought anyone with remotely the combination of speed, power, balance and accuracy. He has a very good chin but Sanders and Lewis had him rocked.

But Lewis is a harder puncher than Dempsey, plus Dempsey faded in the later rounds, so his only chance for a knockout would be to bomb him out in the first 6 or 7 rounds.

Dempsey physically moved Willard's body with punches and sent him staggering across the ring. Willard was a huge man and very difficult to hurt even if you hit him clean on the jaw. What was astonishing about that fight is not that Dempsey beat Willard but that he demolished him. I would say Willard's chin was at least as good as Vitali's. If Dempsey can hurt Willard he can hurt Vitali IMO.

Dempsey physically moved Willard's body with punches and sent him staggering across the ring. Willard was a huge man and very difficult to hurt even if you hit him clean on the jaw. What was astonishing about that fight is not that Dempsey beat Willard but that he demolished him. I would say Willard's chin was at least as good as Vitali's. If Dempsey can hurt Willard he can hurt Vitali IMO.

I didn't say that he couldn't hurt Vitali, just that I don't think he would knock him out. Vitali has better skills than Willard, so I doubt Dempsey would connect against Vitali as much as he did against Willard. After about 7 rounds of fast-paced fighting, Dempsey would fade as he always does, and a knockout would become less and less likely as the fight continued, so I doubt the fight would be finished inside the distance.

Fair enough. I thought you were trying to argue that Dempsey would be unable to hurt Vitali due to his lack of size.

Fair enough. I thought you were trying to argue that Dempsey would be unable to hurt Vitali due to his lack of size.

Wait a minute, is the almighty Kid Achilles accepting defeat? What are the odds!



j/k


:D

Jess Willard > Vitali Klitschko

Jess Willard > Vitali Klitschko

Skills, no.

Power, yes.

Speed, no.

Chin, it's a tossup.

If they fought I suppose klit would squeek out a ud.

Skills, no.

Power, yes.

Speed, no.

Chin, it's a tossup.

If they fought I suppose klit would squeek out a ud.

Skills - Willard

Power - Willard

Speed - Willard

Chin - Willard


If they fought I suppose Willard would squeek out a devastating first round KO.

Skills - Willard

Power - Willard

Speed - Willard

Chin - Willard


If they fought I suppose Willard would squeek out a devastating first round KO.

I hope your joking.

I hope your joking.

Only with the bottom statement, and heck, might as well add another couple of categories to the equation...

Stamina - Willard

Heart - Willard

Best win(s) - Willard

Only with the bottom statement, and heck, might as well add another couple of categories to the equation...

Stamina - Willard

Heart - Willard

Best win(s) - WillardYogi you just :owned: yourself with this thread! I can't find a thing that Willard was better then Vitali. Everything Vitali was better.

The only one I may give it you is stamina, but Willard did not use his energy the way Vitali did. So even stamina is debatable!

Do you even watch these old fights Gunstar, or do you just parrot what you've been told about them? Myths and generalizations such as "the old guys fought at a much lower pace and that's why they could go so many rounds".

Do you even watch these old fights Gunstar, or do you just parrot what you've been told about them? Myths and generalizations such as "the old guys fought at a much lower pace and that's why they could go so many rounds".Yes I've watched all of them and I have one of the biggest fight collection you will ever see. But I'm not blind!:lol1:

Yogi you just :owned: yourself with this thread! I can't find a thing that Willard was better then Vitali. Everything Vitali was better.

The only one I may give it you is stamina, but Willard did not use his energy the way Vitali did. So even stamina is debatable!

Yogi was kinda just ****ing around, but in all honestly, I'd give both of them an edge in certain categories, although for me seperating one as being better (different than greater...Willard gets the edge there, for me) than the other is just about impossible...especially when all we have to go from with Willard is a few minutes from a couple of fights, and one just happened to be the worse night of his career (also of note that both fights were against elite all-time heavyweights, although Johnson was past it).

But by my guesstimations;

Technique - Vitali 10-9 (ring generalship, smarter on the outside, and with a better defense in keeping his hands up[don't like the way he always leaned straight back, though], gives Vitali slight edge...both used predominantly the same style. Willard threw better variety of punches, like a proper uppercut, and looked less awkward in throwing his power shots, as well as having a lot less "panic" in him when attacked)

Speed - Willard 10-9 (I've never seen Vitali throw or move as fast as Willard did in the opening moments of the Johnson fight, which was filmed at speed or at least close enough to it to judge with some accuracy)

Power - Even 10-10 (both good, but not elite hitters...Willard killed a guy, Viali has nice KO%)

Chin - Even 10-10 (splitting hairs here with two top quality chins)

Heart - Willard 10-8 (I'm not as tough on Vitali's chin as some, but still it's quite a ways behind Willard's)

Stamina - Willard 10-8 (Willard known to pick up the pace and fight stronger late in fights like versus McCarty, Johnson, Moran, etc.)

Workrate - Vitali 10-8 (since you brought it up, I have always been impressed with Viali's work/punchrate. If one was to look at both the films & fight reports, Willard's workrate wasn't thought of very highly in his time, even compared to his contemporaries)

Best Win(s) - Willard 10-8 (a win over an older, past his prime & slightly overweight, Jack Johnson >>>>> a win over an older, past his prime & overweight, Corrie Sanders...Willard defeated his great, but faded champion. Vitali got stopped by his in Lewis)

Oh shit, I just now realized who I was responding to, and now that I have...Umm?

Well, it was only a few minutes of wasted time, so...

Do you even watch these old fights Gunstar, or do you just parrot what you've been told about them? Myths and generalizations such as "the old guys fought at a much lower pace and that's why they could go so many rounds".

Battling Nelson would've slammed that logic in the throat with his performance/workrate against Ad Wolgast in 1910, when studied film of the fight shows that Nelson threw an average of between 85 and 90 punches per round over the course of a 40 round fight...Even for a twelve round fight, those numbers are exceptionally good.

Then we can also see documented punch stats from a ten round fight from the 1890's between Jack McAuliffe & Young Griffo, in which a total of 260 punches were landed by both fighters (137 to 123 for McAuliffe, and worth noting that the ref, Maxie Moore, didn't count the grazing or insignificant punches in his ongoing tally). Not at all impressive numbers on there own, but when one factors in the style both fighters used (Griffo was the world's most reknowned defensive fighter at the time, and while reportedly not as defensive minded as Griffo, McAuliffe was said to have most prefered an outboxing & scientific approach to his fighting), and the fact that the fight itself was not nearly described as being as action packed as some of the other reportedly better fights of the era (like Tommy Ryan/Mysterious Billy Smith, Kid Lavigne/Joe Walcott, etc.), then I think those punches landed numbers compare favourable to what two of today's defensive and/or scientific fighters would come up with over the course of an average ten round bout.

Oh shit, I just now realized who I was responding to, and now that I have...Umm?

Well, it was only a few minutes of wasted time, so...Your daddy! :D Nice post Yogi but very biased towards Willard. Oh if you put Vitali during that era, he would've probably been a god. Vitali is damn too big for that era, but Vitali is not just a big guy like Willard was, he actually is real good.

Nice post Yogi

What's this...some semblance of a compliment?

Alright, now that the utter shock has worn off, I think I know what happened, and would ask Gunstar's friend(s) and/or family member(s) to please stop loggin in and posting under his account.

Aint seen much of Willard. How many of his fights are on film?

Aint seen much of Willard. How many of his fights are on film?

I've seen the obvious two and that's all I can confirm to exist today, although my memory from a discussion on another board does recall someone claiming to have seen a portion of his fight with Moran (I think it was versus Moran, anyways).

What's this...some semblance of a compliment?

Alright, now that the utter shock has worn off, I think I know what happened, and would ask Gunstar's friend(s) and/or family member(s) to please stop loggin in and posting under his account.Yes it is from Gunstar's 99 years old grandpa! Gunstar himself is on vacation!

Yes it is from Gunstar's 99 years old grandpa! Gunstar himself is on vacation!

Hey, every now and then, even the young Gunner needs an extended break from kicking the cats and tripping the old ladies.

Battling Nelson would've slammed that logic in the throat with his performance/workrate against Ad Wolgast in 1910, when studied film of the fight shows that Nelson threw an average of between 85 and 90 punches per round over the course of a 40 round fight...Even for a twelve round fight, those numbers are exceptionally good.

Then we can also see documented punch stats from a ten round fight from the 1890's between Jack McAuliffe & Young Griffo, in which a total of 260 punches were landed by both fighters (137 to 123 for McAuliffe, and worth noting that the ref, Maxie Moore, didn't count the grazing or insignificant punches in his ongoing tally). Not at all impressive numbers on there own, but when one factors in the style both fighters used (Griffo was the world's most reknowned defensive fighter at the time, and while reportedly not as defensive minded as Griffo, McAuliffe was said to have most prefered an outboxing & scientific approach to his fighting), and the fact that the fight itself was not nearly described as being as action packed as some of the other reportedly better fights of the era (like Tommy Ryan/Mysterious Billy Smith, Kid Lavigne/Joe Walcott, etc.), then I think those punches landed numbers compare favourable to what two of today's defensive and/or scientific fighters would come up with over the course of an average ten round bout.

Exactly but no one wants to acknowledge that here and admit that perhaps some of those old time fighters were better conditioned than today's crop.

Dempsey all the way. too fast, powerful and raw. I give vitali 5 rounds max. he was a good boxer, but not a great one. dempsey is one of the two greatest heavies of all time in my book!

Dempsey all the way. too fast, powerful and raw. I give vitali 5 rounds max. he was a good boxer, but not a great one. dempsey is one of the two greatest heavies of all time in my book!

Now that's stretching it a bit, don't you think?

Now that's stretching it a bit, don't you think?

Have you started your all-time top 100 in this division yet, Butterfly?

Have you started your all-time top 100 in this division yet, Butterfly?

Not yet, I'm concentrating on school right now. Finals are creeping up on me!:eek:

Not yet, I'm concentrating on school right now. Finals are creeping up on me!:eek:

Well, the best of luck with those, and I sincerely mean that.

I only asked you that question because it's been snowing like crazy up where I am, haven't been able to get out to work in almost a week, and I must admit the thought of compiling such a list has been on my mind over the last few days...Just for the hell of it, I think I'm going to compile one, although if you're willing to do one too, maybe I'll wait until you actually have the time & energy to do so.

I never said Williard was a Vitali, just that Vitalis size alone wouldnt make him unbeatable. I agree that he is a more skilled fighter and that could possibly make the difference.

Now that's stretching it a bit, don't you think?

Hell no! Dempsey had it all. speed, power, heart, chin, skill and stamina. he was every bit as good as tyson nuthuggers make tyson out to have been. Only ali was better in my opinion.

Hell no! Dempsey had it all. speed, power, heart, chin, skill and stamina. he was every bit as good as tyson nuthuggers make tyson out to have been. Only ali was better in my opinion.

IMO Tyson would eat him for breakfast. tyson was bigger, stronger, and faster. Tyson also had a better chin, and better boxing skills than Dempsey.

Plus I could name other heavyweights besides Ali and Tyson who would destroy Dempsey. foreman would do it, so would Sonny Liston. guys like Larry Holmes and Jack Johnson would outbox him. Also Joe louis is too technically brilliant to lose to Dempsey. Frazier also in my opinion would outlast him. At 190, Dempsey is simply too small to be anywhere near the top two in terms of head-to-head matchups.

IMO Tyson would eat him for breakfast. tyson was bigger, stronger, and faster. Tyson also had a better chin, and better boxing skills than Dempsey.

Plus I could name other heavyweights besides Ali and Tyson who would destroy Dempsey. foreman would do it, so would Sonny Liston. guys like Larry Holmes and Jack Johnson would outbox him. Also Joe louis is too technically brilliant to lose to Dempsey. Frazier also in my opinion would outlast him. At 190, Dempsey is simply too small to be anywhere near the top two in terms of head-to-head matchups.

First off, dempsey would give both johnson and holmes a beating. johnson was good against crap, but would be in a world of shit with dempsey jumping at him. he might frustrate dempsey and last a while, but would be put through the canvas at some point. the same goes for holmes, who never liked being crowded all that much. frazier would be right there, trading punches. Considering dempseys greater power, better chin and faster hands... well, he knocks that ****er out. joe louis was great. how ever, he would not do well against a crowding hard-hitting guy like dempsey, who also had the same handspeed and a better left hook. tko for dempsey. tyson would fold under the pressure of having to fight someone who actually fought back, and fought back good. dempsey by stoppage.

Against liston and foreman, I do see your point. I still say dempsey ****s up liston by ten-eleven rounds or so. foreman might be too big a challenge for anybody except ali.

Anyway, considering greatness, you cannot go simply by that head-to-head measurement crap that you do. and overall, dempsey was the second greatest heavyweight in the history of boxing in my honest opinion.

Anyway, considering greatness, you cannot go simply by that head-to-head measurement crap that you do.

Preach on, brotha.

Butterfly refused to listen to reason on this topic however. To him, his own perception of a fighters head to head ability means everything. Nevermind that style makes fights so some of the guys he ranks low would beat some of the guys he ranks high.

Either way it is irrelevant, Vitali was born only 12 years before Dempsey died, if they had ever fought it would just be a geriatric old man fighting a kid whos voice hadnt even dropped. How terrible would that be?!