View Full Version : War . national service


platinummatt!
11-15-2006, 04:30 PM
War. Is it ever just?

Should they have national service?

LoftyDog
11-16-2006, 01:38 AM
War is very rarely justified. And even when it is, many of the nations involved are involved for their own interests, not because it is just. Like WWII.

And national service?

Jimmy The Gent
04-03-2007, 07:39 PM
National service should be brough back. Help rid the streets of troublemakers

Jim_Davis
04-03-2007, 07:44 PM
Yeah national service should come back but it'd be too hard trying to convince people to accept it. Aswell as actually getting the youth to do it.

Dr.Depravity
04-03-2007, 11:56 PM
The only way to get peace, is to take the fight out of the enemy.

Jim_Davis
04-04-2007, 01:28 AM
The only way to get peace, is to take the fight out of the enemy.

nuke them you mean?

Virgil Caine
04-04-2007, 05:48 AM
Yeah national service should come back but it'd be too hard trying to convince people to accept it. Aswell as actually getting the youth to do it.

national service does seem like a decent concept, getting youths involved in cleaning up their societies and all (if im understanding it right), but it seems potentially scarry to me sorta. Young people are too impressionable and especially if you make them believe they're doing good for society they are capable of some true evil. I dont think this is quite a fair comparison for countries like the US, but the idea reminds me of **** like the red guards of the china, these were urban youth who were mobilized during the cultural revolution to pursue the communist policy of purging pre-communist cultural elements, they attacked teachers, inteletuals, landlords, local officials, and others who were purched above the lower class.

Again, this was a situation unique to china and marred in communism, but it was a very bizzare situation and i thought it worthy of bringing up. It does show the impressionability of young people, they can easily be rendered puppets by a government in such cases. But i'm not entirely opposed to the idea, i just think it is potentially dangerous and i find this an interesting case to illustrate why.

MickyHatton
04-04-2007, 08:42 AM
As a former training instructor in the army I saw first hand how young guys would change after a spell in the forces.

The majority would transform into respectful, hardworking individuals so for me National Service would be an excellent way forward. I agree many would hate it but even if its for 12 months that would assist the individual to build on their character whilst assisting the country in various ways!

The Raging Bull
04-04-2007, 08:57 AM
As a former training instructor in the army I saw first hand how young guys would change after a spell in the forces.

The majority would transform into respectful, hardworking individuals so for me National Service would be an excellent way forward. I agree many would hate it but even if its for 12 months that would assist the individual to build on their character whilst assisting the country in various ways!

Exactly. A two year stint in the army for all young males would be brilliant for discipline and respect, something the youth of today lacks.

And have you never heard of the Just War theory? By St. Thomas Aquinas? If not, read up on it. It's the guidelines the church and governments use to see if war is right.

Remember this, "The greater good for the greater number". If a war is going to help more people than it will harm, it is right in my opinion.

Jesus also taught that people should follow orders of their government and respect their country's leaders so this must mean pacifism is wrong too.

MickyHatton
04-04-2007, 09:33 AM
Exactly. A two year stint in the army for all young males would be brilliant for discipline and respect, something the youth of today lacks.

And have you never heard of the Just War theory? By St. Thomas Aquinas? If not, read up on it. It's the guidelines the church and governments use to see if war is right.

Remember this, "The greater good for the greater number". If a war is going to help more people than it will harm, it is right in my opinion.

Jesus also taught that people should follow orders of their government abd respect their countrys leaders so this must mean pacifism is wrong too.

Interesting!

platinummatt!
04-04-2007, 11:59 AM
Exactly. A two year stint in the army for all young males would be brilliant for discipline and respect, something the youth of today lacks.
And have you never heard of the Just War theory? By St. Thomas Aquinas? If not, read up on it. It's the guidelines the church and governments use to see if war is right.

Remember this, "The greater good for the greater number". If a war is going to help more people than it will harm, it is right in my opinion.

Jesus also taught that people should follow orders of their government and respect their country's leaders so this must mean pacifism is wrong too.

What do we have to respect? Tony Blair? He's ****ed up this country.
The police? they let loads of people go who have done ****ed up stuff, and arrest old women who get beaten up themselves.

Of course its not the coppers faults but the people who run it.

What do we have to respect? Our country is falling apart.

The Raging Bull
04-04-2007, 12:12 PM
What do we have to respect? Tony Blair? He's ****ed up this country.
The police? they let loads of people go who have done ****ed up stuff, and arrest old women who get beaten up themselves.

Of course its not the coppers faults but the people who run it.

What do we have to respect? Our country is falling apart.

I agree Matty, people don't have respect for us so why should we have respect for them. And people should earn our respect. That's what you're saying, right?

Come on, we want to be treated like adults so we should act like it instead of playing silly games like that. You watch the news and you will constantly see kids harrassing the old, vandalising and generally causing trouble. I'm not saying it's all of us. Actually, it's the minority and the media portrays the problem as it being worse than it actually is; but it still needs sorting.

These people we have no respect for have achieved things that we can only aim for; lived through wars and brought families up in the Recession. Doesn't that earn them our respect? If not, what does?

You talk about Tony Blair and the government. Would you feel differently if we weren't in a war with Iraq? I feel many people would. But I also feel that hisotry will shine brightly on Blair for trying to rid the world of evil.

If the youth carry on acting like everyone is indebted to them, our country will fall apart and society won't last.

Oh, don't forget. The law is an ass. Always was and always will be. You can never please eveyone but as I said before, "The greater good for the greater number".

platinummatt!
04-04-2007, 12:40 PM
What the hell? I respect loads of people. Some war veteran comes up to me of course Id respect him. Any people I dont know Ill respect.

But this country used to be great. It's ****e now mate. Who are we learning discipline and respect for? Respect for the country? How can we respect it, look at this mess.

Iraq war, I dont know if it was right or wrong, that twat needed ot be taken out, and we did that, and its apparently worse now. So that went wrong pretty wrong.

Everythings falling apart, NHS, Police, government.

They youths that you talk about need sorting out, there off the rails. Im not talking about those people when you say they need to learn respect, because they need to calm the **** down, and respect; but thats the thing, what do you mean by respect?

I respect my surroundings by not trashing everything, and show it respect kind of thing.

Or respect it like you respect ALI, or I respect Jesus, or ghandi,
or like anyone else respects their heroes

platinummatt!
04-04-2007, 12:42 PM
We're breedin a nation of puftas and all, I look around everyones wearing bloody hair gel, some lad chatting about hair product.

Where did the butch people go?

Nowadays someone could be getting kicked in and people wouldnt do ****.

That wouldnt have been left to happen years ago.

The Raging Bull
04-04-2007, 12:59 PM
Our country is falling apart, you're right. And I can tell that you're a respectful young man who seems very kind hearted. But I just think National Service would be perfect for the youth of today because they don't seem to have morals. This is through no fault of their own but it's how they've been brought up. I'm not taking digs at our generation mate. I feel that evil is bred not born.

There's not a lot to respect at all, I don't like what the world is turning into either. But if we want to change things, we have to be different and not going around feeling hate for everything like everyone else. We need to set examples for people to follow.

The country is rotting from the inside, so if we want to stop this, we have to stop it from the inside. That means sorting our country out. Helping each other and ourselves before we help anyone else.

About the pufter thing; I wear hair gel you little wanker :lol1:

platinummatt!
04-04-2007, 01:06 PM
haha, lol sorry mate, you should see it though :nonono:

I just wish people were stronger sometimes, I guess its' not their fault, Im not exactly the strongest, and defiantely can be weak. I just wish I, and everyone else was strong and had good morals.

The older generation need to sort themselves out, and at the same time deal with the young 'uns. I dont know if national service joining the army is always perfect though, because not everyone likes the army.

I wouldnt want to join them because they could send you off to do something that you know isnt right.

I dont know if Jesus was against pacifism, either mate.

You speak well though man,

We should run for prime minister[s]

This world sickens me sometimes though.

Nacho_Analstain
04-04-2007, 01:09 PM
We're breedin a nation of puftas and all, I look around everyones wearing bloody hair gel, some lad chatting about hair product.

WHERE DID THE BUTCH PEOPLE GO?

Nowadays someone could be getting kicked in and people wouldnt do ****.

That wouldnt have been left to happen years ago.

lesbians...

The Raging Bull
04-04-2007, 01:21 PM
haha, lol sorry mate, you should see it though :nonono:

I just wish people were stronger sometimes, I guess its' not their fault, Im not exactly the strongest, and defiantely can be weak. I just wish I, and everyone else was strong and had good morals.

The older generation need to sort themselves out, and at the same time deal with the young 'uns. I dont know if national service joining the army is always perfect though, because not everyone likes the army.

I wouldnt want to join them because they could send you off to do something that you know isnt right.

I dont know if Jesus was against pacifism, either mate.

You speak well though man,

We should run for prime minister[s]

This world sickens me sometimes though.


There's a lot of feminine lads though, I agree.

Older generations do seem to have a chip on their shoulder about youth and this may be why the youth treat them so bad. I don't know. One thing I do know though is that a lot of people would object to National Service. I guess it's really just an ideal that is impossible to be put into practice nowadays.

We did about **** like this in R.E (I have to take it because I go to a catholic school, it's compulsory) and we were taught that Jesus told his disciples and followers to not break laws and that if they are summoned to fight in a 'Just War' for their countrys, they shouldn't go against this.

We both seem able to convey our ideas well :fing02:

I'd love to become Prime Minister one day, we'll have to see were our paths of life take us. :cool:

platinummatt!
04-04-2007, 01:29 PM
Ill never get in because Ive smoked weed before and its on my records.

Another bull**** of sociecty. We can drink but not smokre weed.

But drinking's worse apparently, and is being looked into being put into class A.


im tired of sitting here in front of this pc all day. Im going to do something about this. Im gonna call up some charity organisations, and some other ones for animal rights that kind of **** see if I can join and see what I can do.

This totally blows otherwise.

MickyHatton
04-04-2007, 01:30 PM
Matty, you are RB are both right!

Respect has many meanings, some people think 'respect' revolves around how many people they beat in a fight or how many woman they can shag whilst others define respect as how they act, dress and look.

The true and moral meaning of respect is more about how you conduct yourself as a human being and as a citizen and neighbour and how others react to the way you conduct yourself.

This problem isn't a new thing its happened for decades, 20 years ago I remember my parents saying the same things I do now, Thatcher was the Prime Minister, there was no work, no money and everyone blamed the government for their problems.

Respect should be instilled in the home, I have brought my children up to be polite, hardworking and respectful of others unfortunately this doesn't seem to happen in every household hence the slow but constant breakdown in society.
Add into that you younger guys through no fault of your own are now part of the 'PlayStation Generation', what I mean by that is you have access to far more than any other generation before you in the form of the Internet, entertainment, home comforts, lots of food (albeit junk), medical support etc etc etc therefore as a nation our youngsters have slowly become soft (Not all but most)

If you look back to when I was growing up in the 70's and 80's, we didn't have central heating or double glazing, we made our own entertainment in the form of outside activity's rain or shine as at home there was nothing to do other than watch one of three channels on a small TV, we walked everywhere, there was little health and safety and even less political correctness, on average there was little money and even less pandering to by the adults as to them we were spoilt.

As I mentioned I was a training instructor at a Army Training Regiment, the recruits on average were unfit, had a low tolerance to pain and would get injured very easily simple because they were a product of the PlayStation Generation, add into that they expected short hours and big wages fuelled by the constant media flooding of get rich quick or become a celeb etc etc.
As I said this is not the generations fault its just the way it is!

Therefore as a nation we are becoming weak, we had for centuries pound for pound the best soldiers on the planet but that is no longer the case because the 'stock' of fit, motivated and robust youngsters has become smaller and smaller.

Things will either have to change or we will become weaker and weaker. The only way this can happen is that the parents take the responsibility to manage their children to be 'good people' and to be active people, another way to ease the problem would be National Service.

National Service would toughen up some, make independent people of some and ease the burden on our dwindling forces whilst helping to improve the attitude and well being of the younger generation.

Before all of that though these issues need addressing in the home!

platinummatt!
04-04-2007, 01:37 PM
Good post micky.

I do too much talk, and no action.

I need to be less of a molusc

The Raging Bull
04-04-2007, 02:42 PM
Matty, you are RB are both right!

Respect has many meanings, some people think 'respect' revolves around how many people they beat in a fight or how many woman they can shag whilst others define respect as how they act, dress and look.

The true and moral meaning of respect is more about how you conduct yourself as a human being and as a citizen and neighbour and how others react to the way you conduct yourself.

This problem isn't a new thing its happened for decades, 20 years ago I remember my parents saying the same things I do now, Thatcher was the Prime Minister, there was no work, no money and everyone blamed the government for their problems.

Respect should be instilled in the home, I have brought my children up to be polite, hardworking and respectful of others unfortunately this doesn't seem to happen in every household hence the slow but constant breakdown in society.
Add into that you younger guys through no fault of your own are now part of the 'PlayStation Generation', what I mean by that is you have access to far more than any other generation before you in the form of the Internet, entertainment, home comforts, lots of food (albeit junk), medical support etc etc etc therefore as a nation our youngsters have slowly become soft (Not all but most)

If you look back to when I was growing up in the 70's and 80's, we didn't have central heating or double glazing, we made our own entertainment in the form of outside activity's rain or shine as at home there was nothing to do other than watch one of three channels on a small TV, we walked everywhere, there was little health and safety and even less political correctness, on average there was little money and even less pandering to by the adults as to them we were spoilt.

As I mentioned I was a training instructor at a Army Training Regiment, the recruits on average were unfit, had a low tolerance to pain and would get injured very easily simple because they were a product of the PlayStation Generation, add into that they expected short hours and big wages fuelled by the constant media flooding of get rich quick or become a celeb etc etc.
As I said this is not the generations fault its just the way it is!

Therefore as a nation we are becoming weak, we had for centuries pound for pound the best soldiers on the planet but that is no longer the case because the 'stock' of fit, motivated and robust youngsters has become smaller and smaller.

Things will either have to change or we will become weaker and weaker. The only way this can happen is that the parents take the responsibility to manage their children to be 'good people' and to be active people, another way to ease the problem would be National Service.

National Service would toughen up some, make independent people of some and ease the burden on our dwindling forces whilst helping to improve the attitude and well being of the younger generation.

Before all of that though these issues need addressing in the home!

****ing brilliant post!

Respect is bred from childhood. If you're a good person, your kids will normally end up like that because you'll teach them to be like you.

You've hit on all points, great post :fing02:

OptimusWolf
04-04-2007, 06:11 PM
I'm by no means a pacifist, but in today's world military action should be used sparingly IMO - there are more effective less damaging ways of influencing other powers (sanctions in particular).

I have no problem with national service though, in fact I think its quite a good idea, maybe only 3-6 months and suited to your existing skills as well.

I was a cadet for 5 years at school and I hated it, but I've spent a bit of time on barracks since then and it seems like the sort of environment that can make a man out of a boy, or a better man out of a man.

OptimusWolf
04-04-2007, 06:19 PM
great post Micky - I couldn't agree more.

I think the challenging thing is looking at solutions to this conundrum. Being part of the government myself I always roll my eyes a little when the government gets the blame for everything, and people want more public services whilst paying less tax (impossible).

However, my one insight and major criticism of the current regime is the level of soft paternalism that is creeping into policy recently. I have no problem and can make very good arguments for unpopular policies such as immigration, lone parents and the NHS, but I can't unsderstand the sort of policies that say "we're not going to force you to so this, but we're going to make it difficult for you to choose otherwise"

If you think something is important, make it compulsory, otherwise leave it completely voluntary - stop wiping peoples arses for them.

Dr.Depravity
04-04-2007, 07:54 PM
nuke them you mean?

No. Not really.
Usually once humans have reached a point where they are willing to fight for something they believe in, how do you stop it? When debate gets nowhere you need to make the cost of that fight so high its not worth the other guy fighting for it anymore.
With Iran if the sanctions work and we don't have any cheaters. (Russia I'm looking in your direction) The people of Iran will get tired of not having the goods the need. What they used to have, for what? because their president wouldn't abandon a nuclear program they don't need. Natural gas is free there, so why the need for nuclear power all of the sudden?
I have read reports that you won't hear on 60's minutes. The people of Iran are getting sick of this guys bull****. Their economy is going down the ****ter and all their president can do is piss off the western world and look like some sort of a rebel. Believe me, its starting to wear thin. And with the new round of sanctions coming into play, I only expect it to get worse.

neils7147933
01-03-2008, 01:56 PM
Nationality is rarely chosen. Why should I serve a military of a country just because I happened to be born within its borders? Let the people who have that GI Joe-carry a gun-hard on or need to belong to a branch to earn college money or support a family because they have no other means serve.

If they let the people start voting on whether we go to war, then maybe required service is appropriate. Until then, an all volunteer army is just.

fight_professor
04-23-2008, 10:28 AM
I am an pacifist. All violence is ultimately counterproductive. We can overcome any adversaries with our power to love.