History has almost forgotten Oscar Bonavena but he was one of the toughest guys to put on gloves. He went 25 hard rounds in two fight against Joe Frazier, back when Frazier was in his prime. He even went toe-to-toe with the hard punching Ron Lyle and survived, not many men can brag about that. Strangely enough Muhammad Ali knocked him out in the 15 round of a gruelling fight which many people though Bonavena was winning. Here he is giving Ali hell in the 9th round:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wu3vIXr0cPM&mode=related&search=

Bonavena was a bad man, a real tough character. He lived fast and lived hard, and fought his ass off every which way in the ring. Ali's late round knockout was crazy, Bonavena tried like hell to stay in there but he couldn't remain on his feet. He was really out of it by that point. Bonavena died in a car accident some years I ago I recall.

Bonavena died in a car accident some years I ago I recall.

He was murdered in 1976 while enjoying the company of some of Nevada's finest "ladies" at the famous Mustang Ranch in Reno.

I remember watching this fight as a kid. Afterwards, Ali embraced Oscar and saluted him as one of the toughest guys he'd ever fought (I think he said "I love you, man" IIRC). Ali was completely wiped after that fight - he looked a lot like he did after Thrilla.

great fight for oscar, really had me thinkin he was gonna win when i saw it. very underrated

Bonavena was a bad man, a real tough character. He lived fast and lived hard, and fought his ass off every which way in the ring. Ali's late round knockout was crazy, Bonavena tried like hell to stay in there but he couldn't remain on his feet. He was really out of it by that point. Bonavena died in a car accident some years I ago I recall.


.....actually he was shot in a whore house. There are various stories about his death, and life too. I think it would make a great screen play.

Yeah, Ali stopped bonavena within 15 rounds, when Frazier couldn't do it in 25. But Somehow Ali is featherfisted. Funny stuff!!

History has almost forgotten Oscar Bonavena but he was one of the toughest guys to put on gloves. He went 25 hard rounds in two fight against Joe Frazier, back when Frazier was in his prime. He even went toe-to-toe with the hard punching Ron Lyle and survived, not many men can brag about that. Strangely enough Muhammad Ali knocked him out in the 15 round of a gruelling fight which many people though Bonavena was winning. Here he is giving Ali hell in the 9th round:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wu3vIXr0cPM&mode=related&search=

like shavers and norton, bonavena was a ggreat boxer who was unfortunate enough to have been in the golden age of boxing when the competition was the strongest in history. if he had come up at another time he could have been champ

Yeah, Ali stopped bonavena within 15 rounds, when Frazier couldn't do it in 25. But Somehow Ali is featherfisted. Funny stuff!!

Yeah history has been hard on Ali compared to the way Frazier is revered :ugh:

I saw Ali - Bonavena on ESPN classic. Ali was in comftorable lead going into 15th round. Bonavena needed a knock down to win, but it was Ali who scored a knock out. First Frazier - Bonavena fight was very close. Frazier was down twice in second round. I believe Frazier won split decision.

Yeah, Ali stopped bonavena within 15 rounds, when Frazier couldn't do it in 25. But Somehow Ali is featherfisted. Funny stuff!!

bonavena was exhausted when ali took him down, plus he hit him with a good left hook, perfect timing, i dont think ali is featherfisted, but he certainly isnt a joe frazier or foreman when it comes to punching power

Yeah, Ali stopped bonavena within 15 rounds, when Frazier couldn't do it in 25. But Somehow Ali is featherfisted. Funny stuff!!

Don't get to excited over a one fight result, Butterfly, as you remember that a blown up middleweight of average power (at best, and I feel I'm being too kind with that) like Jimmy Ellis also managed to knock Bonavena down on a couple of occasions.

Heck, as one other of the numerous examples that could be given, and since he's on my mind at the moment after just watching the great fight he had with Ramirez in their rematch, I've always considered Edwin Rosario one of, if not THE single hardest punching lightweight that I've seen in the last 30 years or so...

vs. Juan Nazario: W & L by TKO-8 in two meetings...16 rounds in total.

And yet, we can see one of the lightest punching lightweight champions/title holders of recent history, Pernell Whitaker, score a one-punch straight left hand, 1st round KO over that same opponent in Nazario...

Go figure.

Ali clearly wasn't featherfisted but his power wasn't great. I'd say when he sat down on his punches he was above average in pure power...6 out of 10 in a numerical rating system. 5 would be average at heavyweight and 2 or 3 would be "featherfisted".

I'm talking pure power as in the actual force deliver that could be detected by a machine. Force alone does not produce knockouts however...timing and speed are critical components that Ali did possess in abundance.

Nope, Ali must've been feather fisted if he couldn't knock out or even knock down the "glass chinned" pair of Ken Norton & Earnie Shavers in some 50+ rounds of boxing.

*takes tongue out of cheek*

I'm with you Yogi, the logic people on this forum use is ridiculous sometimes. It's like video game or computer logic, only using numbers as variables and never considering the intangibles. Keep in mind there are the guys who think LaMotta, Gene Fullmer, and Dick Tiger were feather fisted because of their KO %'s.

You can't even argue with them because everything is just your biased opinion, and only the numbers count. It's a joke.

Strange things happen to one's KO% when they are matched againt elite competition in fight after fight after fight after fight, don't they, Kid?

1. Dick Tiger
2. Gene Fullmer
3. Jake LaMotta

For their respective punching power, that's about how I'd rate the three you mentioned, with all of them being about average or just a little above above (like LaMotta), above average (like Fullmer), or well above average (like Tiger)...Heck, nevermind punching power, those three right there just may be the three physically strongest fighters to have ever graced the middleweight division, or right up there in the top five or top ten at the very least.

Love that Joey Giadello quote, by the way, which came right after being asked if he was going to trade with Tiger in their upcoming fight, and it went something along the lines of, "Are you kidding? Nevermind trading punches with Tiger, I wouldn't even exchange postal stamps with him."...

Can't say I'd blame him, though, because one can probably count on one hand the number of middleweights in history that'd stand a chance in a fight with Tiger by trading shots with him in the trenches...He could be outslicked obviously, as proven on a few occasions, but to go punch-for-punch with that bull is/was just about suicide for most middleweights.

Agreed Yogi, it took a freak puncher like Foster who was naturally much bigger than Tiger to best him in a firefight. Too bad Tiger is barely even known by most boxing fans anymore. He's one of those guys, like Marcel Cerdan, who no one in casual boxing circles talks about and becomes more and more impressive the more you learn about him.

I just wish Nigerian born Sam Peter had half of Tiger's dedication to boxing and work ethic as he'd easily be the best heavyweight of his era. He's mmensely strong and durable like Tiger, but lacks his countryman's fighting spirit and mentality.

wow I was gunna comment on the feather fisted comment but Kid Achilles and Yogi beat me to it...and did abetter job then I would've...

Ali-
"The scariest guy I fought was Sonny Liston, the best boxer I fought was Floyd Patterson, the Strongest (hardest hitting) was Foreman, but the toughest was Joe Frazier..."

Agreed Yogi, it took a freak puncher like Foster who was naturally much bigger than Tiger to best him in a firefight. Too bad Tiger is barely even known by most boxing fans anymore. He's one of those guys, like Marcel Cerdan, who no one in casual boxing circles talks about and becomes more and more impressive the more you learn about him.

I just wish Nigerian born Sam Peter had half of Tiger's dedication to boxing and work ethic as he'd easily be the best heavyweight of his era. He's mmensely strong and durable like Tiger, but lacks his countryman's fighting spirit and mentality.

Hmm?

Your mention of both Tiger & Cerdan has caused me to pause and think about a fantasy fight that I don't believe I've ever thought of before, Kid...

Dick Tiger vs. Marcel Cerdan?

Yeah, I don't believe I ever thought of that one or have even come across it anywhere, but I think my gut is telling me that Cerdan is going to use his better hand & foot speed to get in-and out just often to take a close decision after 15 (he'd have to use just a little more "out" than "in" from what I've seen from him, though)...but I'm a little hesitant with that pick as I can also see Tiger being a bit too big & too strong for Cerdan over the course of the fight, not giving him the room to use his legs at times, and wearing him out over the later portions of the fight with his short power punches to the head and body, especially with that mean left hook of his. Then again, Cerdan was a natural strong fighter for his size, as well (strong legs and shoulders, made him a good inside fighter with EXCEPTIONAL balance...very strong legs on him, I should say), and although not as physically strong as Tiger, could have enough in that department to not get completely overmatched in that regards.

Oh, I should trust my first instincts, I guess...

Marcel Cerdan W-15 Dick Tiger in a close one.

I was thinking of that when you talked about Tiger's strength. You made the point of how few middleweights in history could really stand a chance in a shootout with Tiger but if anyone could hold his own it was Cerdan. Tremendous strength and really vicious punching on the inside coupled with great athleticism and physical and mental toughness and grit. Fighting one handed against one of the greatest pressure fighters ever in LaMotta? That guy really had it all and shot the theory that the french can't fight between the eyes. I love watching footage of Cerdan.

I couldn't even hope to guess how a fight with them would go. I think with such evenly matched well conditioned all time great middleweights, both aggresive and both with victory, not survival, on the mind, you'd have one of the greatest wars of all time.

There would be many winners in this fight. Every man and woman who would see it.

I was thinking of that when you talked about Tiger's strength. You made the point of how few middleweights in history could really stand a chance in a shootout with Tiger but if anyone could hold his own it was Cerdan. Tremendous strength and really vicious punching on the inside coupled with great athleticism and physical and mental toughness and grit. Fighting one handed against one of the greatest pressure fighters ever in LaMotta? That guy really had it all and shot the theory that the french can't fight between the eyes. I love watching footage of Cerdan.

I couldn't even hope to guess how a fight with them would go. I think with such evenly matched well conditioned all time great middleweights, both aggresive and both with victory, not survival, on the mind, you'd have one of the greatest wars of all time.

There would be many winners in this fight. Every man and woman who would see it.

Cerdan is a wonderful fighter to watch, isn't he?

One of my favourites to watch, as well, and has been for a long-ass time. It's also great to see another boxing fan, of whom I have great respect for, have that same or similiar high opinion of Cerdan that I've had for as long as I can remember. You know it used to be tough being a Cerdan appreciator (as I was when I first started posted on the internet), because you'd come across those typicals who'd say the same thing over and over again, which was along the lines of; "Cerdan was just a European bum who beat up on other European bums". Well, that may be a bit of an exaggeration, but that was generally the jist of it every time I tried to talk Cerdan. Not too many had actually seen him fight, so it was really tough defending Cerdan against the throng of those opinions. But now...well, a Cerdan fight or five (or more) can be easily viewed on the internet now, thanks to youtube and other sites like Cerdan's home site, and it feels good to know that others can see what a great & gifted all around fighting talent he really was.

I guess I just feel my high opinion of Cerdan from all this time has been validated (or something) every time a high opinion of him is expressed by others such as yourself, K-Dogg, and other posters of that quality.

Nope, Ali must've been feather fisted if he couldn't knock out or even knock down the "glass chinned" pair of Ken Norton & Earnie Shavers in some 50+ rounds of boxing.

*takes tongue out of cheek*

And what makes Ken Norton chinny? Because he was ko'd by the hardest punchers in boxing history?:rolleyes:

Re-read that post again, taking special note of the "tongue in cheek" part.

Re-read that post again, taking special note of the "tongue in cheek" part.

I know he was joking about Ali being featherfisted, but he did say than Norton's chin was weak. It isn't great, but IMO it's not weak.

And what makes Ken Norton chinny? Because he was ko'd by the hardest punchers in boxing history?:rolleyes:

You think Cooney is one of the hardest punchers in boxing history? Wow, I know your talking about George but I found that funny.

norton was over the hill for the cooney fight...if he would of fought prime kenny it would of been a longer fight...not saying he wouldnt get koed eventually, but it would of at least went 5 rounds instead of a blowout

Ali, like a lot of fighters, had limited boxing skills, but great physical assets. He had to be on top of his game all the time. What set Ali (and the great heavyweights) apart from the also-rans was his tremendous heart.....

You think Cooney is one of the hardest punchers in boxing history? Wow, I know your talking about George but I found that funny.

Well, isn't he? On pure power alone. I'm not talking about how great a fighter or even pure punching skills, just the heaviness of the hands he would make the top ten.

I saw Ali - Bonavena on ESPN classic. Ali was in comftorable lead going into 15th round. Bonavena needed a knock down to win, but it was Ali who scored a knock out. First Frazier - Bonavena fight was very close. Frazier was down twice in second round. I believe Frazier won split decision.

** Bonavena was winning the pro fight junior. He roughed up Ali bad, put him on queer street once. Ali got a ref that allowed Ali to stand ring center after knocking Oscar down.

Oscar was dumber'n a mule and jumped up sans a count and Ali slapped him down again. Ali coulda been DQed easily, just like the 2nd Liston fight, ect, but he was the star, and without Oscar there would be no Frazier series.

** Bonavena was winning the pro fight junior. He roughed up Ali bad, put him on queer street once. Ali got a ref that allowed Ali to stand ring center after knocking Oscar down.

Oscar was dumber'n a mule and jumped up sans a count and Ali slapped him down again. Ali coulda been DQed easily, just like the 2nd Liston fight, ect, but he was the star, and without Oscar there would be no Frazier series.

No, he wasn't winning. Ali was slightly ahead.

No, he wasn't winning. Ali was slightly ahead.

** On the cards Ali was pitching a blowout kid. In the fight he barely survived, and only with the help of a ref paid to see Ali make it to the jumbo prize gate, the Frazier fight.

Ali was completely spent, but after losing the fight on the 3 kd rule, Oscar can be seen being pulled back from the ring after going after some hecklers. Oscar was the stronger man, but he was also the dumber man which is why he kept getting kded.

** On the cards Ali was pitching a blowout kid. In the fight he barely survived, and only with the help of a ref paid to see Ali make it to the jumbo prize gate, the Frazier fight.

Ali was completely spent, but after losing the fight on the 3 kd rule, Oscar can be seen being pulled back from the ring after going after some hecklers. Oscar was the stronger man, but he was also the dumber man which is why he kept getting kded.

Ali would have won without the knockout, probably an md, even Cosell said so.

Ali would have won without the knockout, probably an md, even Cosell said so.

** Read kid. Ali was pitching a blowout on the cards. He had the fight won and the Frazier fight guaranteed before he ever stepped into the ring. Such is the legacy of boxing.

Ali was way ahead before stoppage. Only people who never saw this fight can say that Bonavena had a chance to win this fight on points. It was tough fight for Ali, but not close in terms of Ali losing. Bonavena probably won first fight with Frazier but Frazier was awarded majority decision. Of course, here people are fast to point to every fight Ali fought that he either lost or had a chance to lose, he just somehow got lucky everytime. It's amazing how people hate him even after all these years since he stopped boxing.

1970-12-07 212 Oscar Natalio Bonavena 204 46-6-1
Madison Square Garden, New York, NY, USA W TKO 15 15
~ Time: 2:03 | Referee: Mark Conn | Judge: Joe Eppy | Judge: Jack Bloom ~
~ NABF Heavyweight Title ~
Bonavena knocked down three times in the 15th, forcing an automatic stoppage. Scoring at the time of the stoppage: 12-2, 10-3-1, 8-5-1 all for Ali.
This is Muhammad Ali's record and judges scoring for every fight. On this site you can find out for any boxer their fight records.

http://www.boxrec.com/boxer_display.php?boxer_id=000180