View Full Version : The Abyss of Thinking....


Ta Khent
10-26-2006, 09:39 PM
To all who can grasp this thinking, you are walking the inner pathway of freedom. To those who fight it, you are only battling yourself.

The Abyss of Thinking,

God, Most High, Creator as defined by itself is absolutely, unquestionable beyond human comprehension. ALL we truly know is we (as in the whole universe) exists because it exists. God, as defined by humans, is a concept For it is the human spirituality that brings it to life. Humans create God in his or her image.

This is evident in ALL cultures both ancient and current....

1. Christianity was developed by European male scholars and the image of a God source that represents that religion is a European male.

2. Buddhism was developed by Asian male scholars the image of a God source for that religion is an Asian male.

3. Ancient Mayans was developed by Mayan male scholars and the God source for that religion was the image of a Mayan male.

4. Ancient Meta Netur was developed by Black male and female Kemet scholars and the God source for that religion was the image of black male and female Kemetians (mentionable note: this was the first culture that developed a God source for this current civilization) Ect.,

For if the God source is the same to all humans, then there would be absolutely no debates on the origin, vision, or principle the God source represents. All humans would see God as is just as all humans see the sun as light and the sky as blue. Each human visualizes God by the use of his or her intuitive nature.

No two peopleís visions are the same. They may use another persons' vision (like Leonardo Da Vinci's painting of Jesus) to influence their perception, but the reality is if that person never had a picture supplied by the painter, his or her vision would be quite different. Because people donít visualize and think exactly the same, the God source identifies, communicates, and dwells within each individual human and relates to that human exactly as that human perceives God to be. Then humans with similar not exact perceptions create organized groups, join together, develop, and practice rituals.

All humans seek pleasure in his or her perceptions to obtain the ultimate feeling of well being within his or her own spirit. Humans will seek ideas, stories, data, information, science, mathematics, ect., to support their perceptions? Then humans actually live what they have perceived. You are only subject to your perception. It is man who creates the conditions to support his perception (heaven, hell ect.,)

Many who read this post will think this is blasemphy, but if you truly attempt to synthesize rather than analyze or use Holistic thought rather than rational thought, then one can obtain the lesson of knowledge based on the wisdom of divine universal law. Now I realized this will not be comprehended by most, but a few of you should of be able to get...the more advanced souls.

The Noose
10-26-2006, 10:11 PM
Me understood. U write words good.

Yet, there is a real air of arrogance. "Advanced souls". I dont mind preteniousness for the sake of being pretenious. Maybe by posting on this site, using the words and phrasing u use, u know many will not understand wat the **** ur on about. U choose to sprinkle a fair bit of pompousness on a thought provoking intelligent post, and alienating some of us less advanced souls. Im sure if u wrote in a less arrogant tone, more people would comprehend and appreciate ur posts.

Basically everything was great except the first and last lines.

Ta Khent
10-26-2006, 10:29 PM
Me understood. U write words good.

Yet, there is a real air of arrogance. "Advanced souls". I dont mind preteniousness for the sake of being pretenious. Maybe by posting on this site, using the words and phrasing u use, u know many will not understand wat the **** ur on about. U choose to sprinkle a fair bit of pompousness on a thought provoking intelligent post, and alienating some of us less advanced souls. Im sure if u wrote in a less arrogant tone, more people would comprehend and appreciate ur posts.

Basically everything was great except the first and last lines.

Only stating the obvious based on my experience of posters on this site. For those who feel insulted, should not be. I can be brutally honest at times.

K-DOGG
10-26-2006, 10:34 PM
To all who can grasp this thinking, you are walking the inner pathway of freedom. To those who fight it, you are only battling yourself.

The Abyss of Thinking,

God, Most High, Creator as defined by itself is absolutely, unquestionable beyond human comprehension. ALL we truly know is we (as in the whole universe) exists because it exists. God, as defined by humans, is a concept For it is the human spirituality that brings it to life. Humans create God in his or her image.

This is evident in ALL cultures both ancient and current....

1. Christianity was developed by European male scholars and the image of a God source that represents that religion is a European male.

2. Buddhism was developed by Asian male scholars the image of a God source for that religion is an Asian male.

3. Ancient Mayans was developed by Mayan male scholars and the God source for that religion was the image of a Mayan male.

4. Ancient Meta Netur was developed by Black male and female Kemet scholars and the God source for that religion was the image of black male and female Kemetians (mentionable note: this was the first culture that developed a God source for this current civilization) Ect.,

For if the God source is the same to all humans, then there would be absolutely no debates on the origin, vision, or principle the God source represents. All humans would see God as is just as all humans see the sun as light and the sky as blue. Each human visualizes God by the use of his or her intuitive nature.

No two peopleís visions are the same. They may use another persons' vision (like Leonardo Da Vinci's painting of Jesus) to influence their perception, but the reality is if that person never had a picture supplied by the painter, his or her vision would be quite different. Because people donít visualize and think exactly the same, the God source identifies, communicates, and dwells within each individual human and relates to that human exactly as that human perceives God to be. Then humans with similar not exact perceptions create organized groups, join together, develop, and practice rituals.

All humans seek pleasure in his or her perceptions to obtain the ultimate feeling of well being within his or her own spirit. Humans will seek ideas, stories, data, information, science, mathematics, ect., to support their perceptions? Then humans actually live what they have perceived. You are only subject to your perception. It is man who creates the conditions to support his perception (heaven, hell ect.,)

Many who read this post will think this is blasemphy, but if you truly attempt to synthesize rather than analyze or use Holistic thought rather than rational thought, then one can obtain the lesson of knowledge based on the wisdom of divine universal law. Now I realized this will not be comprehended by most, but a few of you should of be able to get...the more advanced souls.

I will completely get back to this post later on, brother. I'm a little too busy for deep thinking at the moment. I'll be back though, Scouts honor. ;)

eazy_mas
10-27-2006, 06:55 AM
To all who can grasp this thinking, you are walking the inner pathway of freedom. To those who fight it, you are only battling yourself.

The Abyss of Thinking,

God, Most High, Creator as defined by itself is absolutely, unquestionable beyond human comprehension. ALL we truly know is we (as in the whole universe) exists because it exists. God, as defined by humans, is a concept For it is the human spirituality that brings it to life. Humans create God in his or her image.

This is evident in ALL cultures both ancient and current....

1. Christianity was developed by European male scholars and the image of a God source that represents that religion is a European male.

2. Buddhism was developed by Asian male scholars the image of a God source for that religion is an Asian male.

3. Ancient Mayans was developed by Mayan male scholars and the God source for that religion was the image of a Mayan male.

4. Ancient Meta Netur was developed by Black male and female Kemet scholars and the God source for that religion was the image of black male and female Kemetians (mentionable note: this was the first culture that developed a God source for this current civilization) Ect.,

For if the God source is the same to all humans, then there would be absolutely no debates on the origin, vision, or principle the God source represents. All humans would see God as is just as all humans see the sun as light and the sky as blue. Each human visualizes God by the use of his or her intuitive nature.

No two peopleís visions are the same. They may use another persons' vision (like Leonardo Da Vinci's painting of Jesus) to influence their perception, but the reality is if that person never had a picture supplied by the painter, his or her vision would be quite different. Because people donít visualize and think exactly the same, the God source identifies, communicates, and dwells within each individual human and relates to that human exactly as that human perceives God to be. Then humans with similar not exact perceptions create organized groups, join together, develop, and practice rituals.

All humans seek pleasure in his or her perceptions to obtain the ultimate feeling of well being within his or her own spirit. Humans will seek ideas, stories, data, information, science, mathematics, ect., to support their perceptions? Then humans actually live what they have perceived. You are only subject to your perception. It is man who creates the conditions to support his perception (heaven, hell ect.,)

Many who read this post will think this is blasemphy, but if you truly attempt to synthesize rather than analyze or use Holistic thought rather than rational thought, then one can obtain the lesson of knowledge based on the wisdom of divine universal law. Now I realized this will not be comprehended by most, but a few of you should of be able to get...the more advanced souls.

i respect your opoins.

but i disagree with you.

last time i asked you some question and should you some evidence of exictance in God.

i dont know of any other religion but i going to talk about my religion islam.

there is some logical, sciencetifal and something in your heart to guide you.

if you are logical person you would be asking this questions:
logical is the part why are you here in this world and for what reason your here? is the creation of the universe is probably or something?


science side:
http://www.jalyat.net/index.htm
it will explain many of the quran science stuff as well as one thing you have to ask yourself who taught the prophet mohammed those things. and yes its 1,400 years back.

heart is something i cant help you with it is only God's will in doing so. sometimes you will have all the answer in front of you but you wouldnt belive a thing because even if its right you dont like it so you want to find you version of the truth.

i am not trying to make you muslims by force but i am trying to convicne you on God's excitcance and that is all up to you what you want to belive in the end. because this conversation could go on and on and you would put your point and i would put my point and it wont end the conversation.


you wont change my view on God's exictance and i wont change your view on his not excitance. but i just putting some of my point in a respected manner

Ta Khent
10-27-2006, 09:39 AM
i respect your opoins.

but i disagree with you.

last time i asked you some question and should you some evidence of exictance in God.

i dont know of any other religion but i going to talk about my religion islam.

there is some logical, sciencetifal and something in your heart to guide you.

if you are logical person you would be asking this questions:
logical is the part why are you here in this world and for what reason your here? is the creation of the universe is probably or something?


science side:
http://www.jalyat.net/index.htm
it will explain many of the quran science stuff as well as one thing you have to ask yourself who taught the prophet mohammed those things. and yes its 1,400 years back.

heart is something i cant help you with it is only God's will in doing so. sometimes you will have all the answer in front of you but you wouldnt belive a thing because even if its right you dont like it so you want to find you version of the truth.

i am not trying to make you muslims by force but i am trying to convicne you on God's excitcance and that is all up to you what you want to belive in the end. because this conversation could go on and on and you would put your point and i would put my point and it wont end the conversation.


you wont change my view on God's exictance and i wont change your view on his not excitance. but i just putting some of my point in a respected manner


There is absolutely NO PROOF that God you refer to exists. Your view of God is based on the words of another man according to his perception. Had the Koran or the Bible not been written, where would your belief system rest? How would you view God? When you look for God outside of yourself rather than inside, you lose the true sense of inner divine.

eazy_mas
10-27-2006, 10:10 AM
There is absolutely NO PROOF that God you refer to exists. Your view of God is based on the words of another man according to his perception. Had the Koran or the Bible not been written, where would your belief system rest? How would you view God? When you look for God outside of yourself rather than inside, you lose the true sense of inner divine.

If a this mand was not educated and new all this things in science before 1,400 year ago then who learn this man.

many of the stuff where not knowen to man.

The Koran came down because the angel and the torah was altered comple of times.

thw words in thee Quran and knowledge in it was so much advance that many off it was discovery just recently

Ta Khent
10-27-2006, 10:36 AM
If a this mand was not educated and new all this things in science before 1,400 year ago then who learn this man.

many of the stuff where not knowen to man.

The Koran came down because the angel and the torah was altered comple of times.

thw words in thee Quran and knowledge in it was so much advance that many off it was discovery just recently


Men were learning science in ancient Egypt, Nubia, Ethiopia long before Mohammed came into existence.

You are missing the point. You perceive what was written by another man based on his perception which ultimately become a belief for you.

eazy_mas
10-27-2006, 10:50 AM
Men were learning science in ancient Egypt, Nubia, Ethiopia long before Mohammed came into existence.

You are missing the point. You perceive what was written by another man based on his perception which ultimately become a belief for you.

nut mohammed didnt read.

as well some of the stuff need device to know like the development of the embroy, expanding of the universe and many other thing just check the website .

BrooklynBomber
10-27-2006, 12:09 PM
To all who can grasp this thinking, you are walking the inner pathway of freedom. To those who fight it, you are only battling yourself.

The Abyss of Thinking,

God, Most High, Creator as defined by itself is absolutely, unquestionable beyond human comprehension. ALL we truly know is we (as in the whole universe) exists because it exists. God, as defined by humans, is a concept For it is the human spirituality that brings it to life. Humans create God in his or her image.

This is evident in ALL cultures both ancient and current....

1. Christianity was developed by European male scholars and the image of a God source that represents that religion is a European male.

2. Buddhism was developed by Asian male scholars the image of a God source for that religion is an Asian male.

3. Ancient Mayans was developed by Mayan male scholars and the God source for that religion was the image of a Mayan male.

4. Ancient Meta Netur was developed by Black male and female Kemet scholars and the God source for that religion was the image of black male and female Kemetians (mentionable note: this was the first culture that developed a God source for this current civilization) Ect.,

For if the God source is the same to all humans, then there would be absolutely no debates on the origin, vision, or principle the God source represents. All humans would see God as is just as all humans see the sun as light and the sky as blue. Each human visualizes God by the use of his or her intuitive nature.

No two peopleís visions are the same. They may use another persons' vision (like Leonardo Da Vinci's painting of Jesus) to influence their perception, but the reality is if that person never had a picture supplied by the painter, his or her vision would be quite different. Because people donít visualize and think exactly the same, the God source identifies, communicates, and dwells within each individual human and relates to that human exactly as that human perceives God to be. Then humans with similar not exact perceptions create organized groups, join together, develop, and practice rituals.

All humans seek pleasure in his or her perceptions to obtain the ultimate feeling of well being within his or her own spirit. Humans will seek ideas, stories, data, information, science, mathematics, ect., to support their perceptions? Then humans actually live what they have perceived. You are only subject to your perception. It is man who creates the conditions to support his perception (heaven, hell ect.,)

Many who read this post will think this is blasemphy, but if you truly attempt to synthesize rather than analyze or use Holistic thought rather than rational thought, then one can obtain the lesson of knowledge based on the wisdom of divine universal law. Now I realized this will not be comprehended by most, but a few of you should of be able to get...the more advanced souls.

Say, are u familiar with David Hume?
Some of the ideas of yours look like they have been inspired by him.

K-DOGG
10-27-2006, 05:42 PM
To all who can grasp this thinking, you are walking the inner pathway of freedom. To those who fight it, you are only battling yourself.

The Abyss of Thinking,

God, Most High, Creator as defined by itself is absolutely, unquestionable beyond human comprehension. ALL we truly know is we (as in the whole universe) exists because it exists. God, as defined by humans, is a concept For it is the human spirituality that brings it to life. Humans create God in his or her image.

This is evident in ALL cultures both ancient and current....

1. Christianity was developed by European male scholars and the image of a God source that represents that religion is a European male.

2. Buddhism was developed by Asian male scholars the image of a God source for that religion is an Asian male.

3. Ancient Mayans was developed by Mayan male scholars and the God source for that religion was the image of a Mayan male.

4. Ancient Meta Netur was developed by Black male and female Kemet scholars and the God source for that religion was the image of black male and female Kemetians (mentionable note: this was the first culture that developed a God source for this current civilization) Ect.,

For if the God source is the same to all humans, then there would be absolutely no debates on the origin, vision, or principle the God source represents. All humans would see God as is just as all humans see the sun as light and the sky as blue. Each human visualizes God by the use of his or her intuitive nature.

No two people***8217;s visions are the same. They may use another persons' vision (like Leonardo Da Vinci's painting of Jesus) to influence their perception, but the reality is if that person never had a picture supplied by the painter, his or her vision would be quite different. Because people don***8217;t visualize and think exactly the same, the God source identifies, communicates, and dwells within each individual human and relates to that human exactly as that human perceives God to be. Then humans with similar not exact perceptions create organized groups, join together, develop, and practice rituals.

All humans seek pleasure in his or her perceptions to obtain the ultimate feeling of well being within his or her own spirit. Humans will seek ideas, stories, data, information, science, mathematics, ect., to support their perceptions? Then humans actually live what they have perceived. You are only subject to your perception. It is man who creates the conditions to support his perception (heaven, hell ect.,)

Many who read this post will think this is blasemphy, but if you truly attempt to synthesize rather than analyze or use Holistic thought rather than rational thought, then one can obtain the lesson of knowledge based on the wisdom of divine universal law. Now I realized this will not be comprehended by most, but a few of you should of be able to get...the more advanced souls.

Wow, very nice Merovingian.

The paragraph I emboldened represents my point of contention. I would submit that all of us have a "sense of God" because God is in us, linked to our souls; but some are more in tune to Him/Her than others and these are the "messangers", for they feel compelled to share what they feel or "know". Because God is not physical, we cannot "see Him/Her" persay; but it is human nature to attach a face to any entity, to humanize it. This helps us relate to something that is well beyond our comprehension.

Jesus was a real person; and while Europeans did paint him in "their image", the man himself was a Jew and looked nothing like Leonardo's depiction.

The man who became Buddah was real as well, if I'm not mistaken, as was Mohammed. Now, while Mohammed's teaching were admittedly influenced by Jewish and Christian teachings, the similarities between the words of Christ and the words of Buddah as to how to treat others, etc. have no such physical connection, so those similarities cannot be explained other than to admit that both "men" shared a similar vision. I find it extremely interesting that an Asian and a Jew, separted by many miles and 500 years came to very similar conclusions.

Could it be that their knowledge and wisdom sprang from the same source?

I don't believe in coincidences; and I believe God, being all-knowing, would have known that the message of one would probably never be able to cross all cultural barriers, so several "doorways" were provided for us by those who were more in tune with Him/Her.

Just my thoughts.

The Noose
10-27-2006, 06:01 PM
science side:
http://www.jalyat.net/index.htm
it will explain many of the quran science stuff as well as one thing you have to ask yourself who taught the prophet mohammed those things. and yes its 1,400 years back.




That site basically says that because we dont know how Mohammed knew all that he knew, it must have been God that told him.

Ive heard that way of thinking before, and to me it doesnt make any sense.
God is the x factor, the unknown. His existance is proved by our ignorance??

That reinforces the title of this thread. (although i disagree with it).

Your site also says how the Koran knew all about the origins of human life before science did. The example showed the Koran passage "We made man from an extract of clay. Then We made him as a drop in a place of settlement, firmly fixed. Then We made the drop into a alagh (leech, suspended thing and blood clot). Then We made alagha into mudghah (chewed substance). "
It then compares the translation of leech, blood clot and chewed substance to drawings of human embryos. Saying how similar they look.

That is not science!
Without the microscope these vague comparisons couldnt have taken place.
It is possible to interperate ancient scripture in accordance with comparitivly recent events and proclaim that it has been prophetized.

That Koran passage proves nothing.

TheHoff!
10-27-2006, 07:02 PM
To all who can grasp this thinking, you are walking the inner pathway of freedom. To those who fight it, you are only battling yourself.
Haha!

Enlightenment is nigh my friends!

eazy_mas
10-28-2006, 05:43 AM
Wow, very nice Merovingian.

The paragraph I emboldened represents my point of contention. I would submit that all of us have a "sense of God" because God is in us, linked to our souls; but some are more in tune to Him/Her than others and these are the "messangers", for they feel compelled to share what they feel or "know". Because God is not physical, we cannot "see Him/Her" persay; but it is human nature to attach a face to any entity, to humanize it. This helps us relate to something that is well beyond our comprehension.

Jesus was a real person; and while Europeans did paint him in "their image", the man himself was a Jew and looked nothing like Leonardo's depiction.

The man who became Buddah was real as well, if I'm not mistaken, as was Mohammed. Now, while Mohammed's teaching were admittedly influenced by Jewish and Christian teachings, the similarities between the words of Christ and the words of Buddah as to how to treat others, etc. have no such physical connection, so those similarities cannot be explained other than to admit that both "men" shared a similar vision. I find it extremely interesting that an Asian and a Jew, separted by many miles and 500 years came to very similar conclusions.

Could it be that their knowledge and wisdom sprang from the same source?

I don't believe in coincidences; and I believe God, being all-knowing, would have known that the message of one would probably never be able to cross all cultural barriers, so several "doorways" were provided for us by those who were more in tune with Him/Her.

Just my thoughts.

Jesus is not jew but he was from bin Israel. Most of the prophet where from bin Isreal. and the part where you said that Mohammed PBUH have is influence by Christianity and Judism iswrong too. The Quran is a complete of these religion and not influenced by it. As there was many thing in the Torah and Angel was changed by people and the Quran was never changed from first in came down

That site basically says that because we dont know how Mohammed knew all that he knew, it must have been God that told him.

Ive heard that way of thinking before, and to me it doesnt make any sense.
God is the x factor, the unknown. His existance is proved by our ignorance??

That reinforces the title of this thread. (although i disagree with it).

Your site also says how the Koran knew all about the origins of human life before science did. The example showed the Koran passage "We made man from an extract of clay. Then We made him as a drop in a place of settlement, firmly fixed. Then We made the drop into a alagh (leech, suspended thing and blood clot). Then We made alagha into mudghah (chewed substance). "
It then compares the translation of leech, blood clot and chewed substance to drawings of human embryos. Saying how similar they look.

That is not science!
Without the microscope these vague comparisons couldnt have taken place.
It is possible to interperate ancient scripture in accordance with comparitivly recent events and proclaim that it has been prophetized.

That Koran passage proves nothing.


which acient scriptue has it?

there is many thing that need a technology for it. you cant just see the human embroy development if you where even in the the begining of the 20th century could you.
there are many thing that that Quran explained that its was discovered just in the 20th centruy.

K-DOGG
10-29-2006, 09:10 AM
Jesus is not jew but he was from bin Israel. Most of the prophet where from bin Isreal. and the part where you said that Mohammed PBUH have is influence by Christianity and Judism iswrong too. The Quran is a complete of these religion and not influenced by it. As there was many thing in the Torah and Angel was changed by people and the Quran was never changed from first in came down


1. You are incorrect in stating that Jesus was not a Jew. He was decended from David through his mother Mary, followed all of the Jewish customs, grew up in Nazareth, went to Jerusalem once a year for passover, etc. He was a Jew.

2. The Koran may not have been changed from teh time it was written by Mohammed; but that does not mean it was not inspired by the Torah and the teachings of Jesus. Now, of course you're going to say that God gave all of that information to Mohammed just as the followers of Christianity say the Bible was completely inspired by God and the Jews will say that the Torah was inspired by Yaweah; but if you're going to really examine all of this together, you're going to have to open your mind a little. The Koran was written some 500 years after Jesus lived; and we know that Christianity has spread all throughout that region by then, so Mohammed, being a merchant who travlled all throughout that part of the world would more than likely have been exposed to the teachings of Jesus....ergo, his writing of the Koran would have been influence by this knowledge.

Now, you can either believe this or not, I'm not saying you have to; but the odds point to it being fact.

eazy_mas
10-29-2006, 03:20 PM
1. You are incorrect in stating that Jesus was not a Jew. He was decended from David through his mother Mary, followed all of the Jewish customs, grew up in Nazareth, went to Jerusalem once a year for passover, etc. He was a Jew.

2. The Koran may not have been changed from teh time it was written by Mohammed; but that does not mean it was not inspired by the Torah and the teachings of Jesus. Now, of course you're going to say that God gave all of that information to Mohammed just as the followers of Christianity say the Bible was completely inspired by God and the Jews will say that the Torah was inspired by Yaweah; but if you're going to really examine all of this together, you're going to have to open your mind a little. The Koran was written some 500 years after Jesus lived; and we know that Christianity has spread all throughout that region by then, so Mohammed, being a merchant who travlled all throughout that part of the world would more than likely have been exposed to the teachings of Jesus....ergo, his writing of the Koran would have been influence by this knowledge.

Now, you can either believe this or not, I'm not saying you have to; but the odds point to it being fact.

reply 1:
Jew is the religion and Israel is the people. There are many prophet who are from Bain Israel which represnetsis Jacob's 12 sons.

reply 2:
The Quran was not inspired by Angel not the Torah but its completed them. There was many alteration on them that where made through these year for the Torah and the Angel. God send the Quran. I can proof it too you that there is some of the thing in the Bible talking about the prophet Muhammed but i need a little bit of search for it.

Are you christian?

K-DOGG
10-30-2006, 02:16 PM
reply 1:
Jew is the religion and Israel is the people. There are many prophet who are from Bain Israel which represnetsis Jacob's 12 sons.

reply 2:
The Quran was not inspired by Angel not the Torah but its completed them. There was many alteration on them that where made through these year for the Torah and the Angel. God send the Quran. I can proof it too you that there is some of the thing in the Bible talking about the prophet Muhammed but i need a little bit of search for it.

Are you christian?


Reply to reply 1: Jesus was both and Israelite and a Jew by those criteria; he practiced Judaeism.

Reply to reply 2: No need. I have a copy of the Quran and am currently reading it. My only response to the "completion" of the torah is this: it is easier for there to be fewer or no inconsistancies when one man is writing the book, even though the Quran was originaly a "Spoken Book", for lack of a better way of putting it. The Bible and the Torah had several authors due to the time in which it was written, which was at a time when Israel and Judah were two separate countries, both of whom slanted certain stories so that their homeland would be portrayed as the "true heir", so to speak.

Also, not to split hairs; but whether or not the Quran "completes" the Torah is a matter of belief. I am a follower of Jesus, who I believe was the Son of God. Since the Quran refers to Jesus as merely a prophet like Moses, obviously, it does not "complete" the teachings I learned from Jesus; but is a different branch alltogether.

I am not judging, for that is not place as a human; and God is the only one who can do such a thing among we humans. I am merely pointing out that you and I are on a separate path.

Also, I believe that since the Quran and the Torah share similar stories, or rather the Quran supports the stories in the Torah, those are the stories to examine from a historical standpoint to determine the accuracey of the stories of the Tribes of Israel. Or, to put it another way, if the Torah is flawed, then so must be the Quran. True?

eazy_mas
10-30-2006, 03:54 PM
Reply to reply 1: Jesus was both and Israelite and a Jew by those criteria; he practiced Judaeism.

Reply to reply 2: No need. I have a copy of the Quran and am currently reading it. My only response to the "completion" of the torah is this: it is easier for there to be fewer or no inconsistancies when one man is writing the book, even though the Quran was originaly a "Spoken Book", for lack of a better way of putting it. The Bible and the Torah had several authors due to the time in which it was written, which was at a time when Israel and Judah were two separate countries, both of whom slanted certain stories so that their homeland would be portrayed as the "true heir", so to speak.

Also, not to split hairs; but whether or not the Quran "completes" the Torah is a matter of belief. I am a follower of Jesus, who I believe was the Son of God. Since the Quran refers to Jesus as merely a prophet like Moses, obviously, it does not "complete" the teachings I learned from Jesus; but is a different branch alltogether.

I am not judging, for that is not place as a human; and God is the only one who can do such a thing among we humans. I am merely pointing out that you and I are on a separate path.

Also, I believe that since the Quran and the Torah share similar stories, or rather the Quran supports the stories in the Torah, those are the stories to examine from a historical standpoint to determine the accuracey of the stories of the Tribes of Israel. Or, to put it another way, if the Torah is flawed, then so must be the Quran. True?


In Islam that is one of the biggest thing that we are trying to protect. God does not need sons or partner because he is complete and perfect

in Islam God is only one who deserve to pray to. You could ask God about anything at anytime and you dont need a middle man to do it.

Jesus was just a prophet from God and he is Human

K-DOGG
10-30-2006, 04:19 PM
In Islam that is one of the biggest thing that we are trying to protect. God does not need sons or partner because he is complete and perfect

in Islam God is only one who deserve to pray to. You could ask God about anything at anytime and you dont need a middle man to do it.

Jesus was just a prophet from God and he is Human

I do believe that God is the only one to pray to; but I believe that God is three entities in one.

I'm sure you're familiar with them: Father, Son, Holy Ghost. While these are "human-terms" to explain the relationship between the three who are one, I do not think they are different entities as much as they are different parts of the same whole: One God, three parts.

Just as man, who is made in God's image has three layers: Higher Self (spiritual or our soul-super-ego), middle-self (Ego, or Conscience), and lower self (ID, animal, or subconscience), I believe the three Biblical representations or parts of God: Father, Son, Holy Ghost....are similar; but of course far beyond our pale human shadows of them. God, being perfect, has three perfect parts who make him one, just as we, who are imperfect, but made in God's image have three imperfect parts that make us one whole on this plain of existence.

God did not need a "helper" as you put it; but split off part of Himself and allowed it to be born in human form so as to be with us in a way that he had not before, actually walking among us a human, experiencing life as a human, rather than as God. God, being Omnipotent, Omniscient, and Omnipresent is above the struggles that we humans deal with every day, for He is perfect and not of this world.

We are taught it is only through the sacrifice of His innocent blood, of perfect sinless blood, the blood of God in human form, Jesus, that our sins could be forgiven and we could enter into heaven when we die. As I'm sure you know, atonement was more or less the purpose for the sacrifices performed by the ancient Hebrews; but the blood of an animal can only do so much. When God sacrificed Himself for us, we were made whole.

I only pray to God; Jesus is my connection because he was the portion of God that walked among us. That's why when Christians pray to God, we end it with "In Jesus name". We don't pray to Jesus, we pray through Jesus.

phallus
10-30-2006, 11:18 PM
In Islam that is one of the biggest thing that we are trying to protect. God does not need sons or partner because he is complete and perfect

in Islam God is only one who deserve to pray to. You could ask God about anything at anytime and you dont need a middle man to do it.

Jesus was just a prophet from God and he is Human

Jesus doesn't mean God is imperfect, but that humanity is imperfect. We do need a "middle man" because people are too selfish to approach God directly

BrooklynBomber
10-30-2006, 11:52 PM
Philosophically speaking muslims are share the same view of G-d as Descartes.

phallus
10-31-2006, 01:21 AM
Philosophically speaking muslims are share the same view of G-d as Descartes.

most people are probably dualists like Descartes

eazy_mas
10-31-2006, 01:39 AM
Jesus doesn't mean God is imperfect, but that humanity is imperfect. We do need a "middle man" because people are too selfish to approach God directly

Jesus is just a prophet.

Why God needs a middle man when he could hear you?

There was one man who approached the prophet and said is God near or far to call God. and it was replyed in the Quran with the meaning: " If my Ubad ( dont know how to explain to it but is someone who is slave and we are all slaves of the creator) say to them that I am near to them hear there Dua ( is where you ask God for something).

so the prophets and Quran and the books that came before are just here to guide you through. It like hints of what you have to do in the life

The Noose
10-31-2006, 02:18 AM
I do believe that God is the only one to pray to; but I believe that God is three entities in one.

I'm sure you're familiar with them: Father, Son, Holy Ghost. While these are "human-terms" to explain the relationship between the three who are one, I do not think they are different entities as much as they are different parts of the same whole: One God, three parts.

Just as man, who is made in God's image has three layers: Higher Self (spiritual or our soul-super-ego), middle-self (Ego, or Conscience), and lower self (ID, animal, or subconscience), I believe the three Biblical representations or parts of God: Father, Son, Holy Ghost....are similar; but of course far beyond our pale human shadows of them. God, being perfect, has three perfect parts who make him one, just as we, who are imperfect, but made in God's image have three imperfect parts that make us one whole on this plain of existence.

God did not need a "helper" as you put it; but split off part of Himself and allowed it to be born in human form so as to be with us in a way that he had not before, actually walking among us a human, experiencing life as a human, rather than as God. God, being Omnipotent, Omniscient, and Omnipresent is above the struggles that we humans deal with every day, for He is perfect and not of this world.

We are taught it is only through the sacrifice of His innocent blood, of perfect sinless blood, the blood of God in human form, Jesus, that our sins could be forgiven and we could enter into heaven when we die. As I'm sure you know, atonement was more or less the purpose for the sacrifices performed by the ancient Hebrews; but the blood of an animal can only do so much. When God sacrificed Himself for us, we were made whole.

I only pray to God; Jesus is my connection because he was the portion of God that walked among us. That's why when Christians pray to God, we end it with "In Jesus name". We don't pray to Jesus, we pray through Jesus.

Excellent stuff.
Ive never thought of it like that; God wanting to experience wat it was like to be human. Thats freaky. Gods got sum balls on him, and now he knows it ****in sucks to be human.
No wonder he is taking his sweet time in returning.


Jesus is just a prophet.

Why God needs a middle man when he could hear you?



But seriously, all this talk of God being complete. Surley if u believe God to be rightous and perfect, then all his actions are also perfect. Which would include taking human form.
Why would the idea of Jesus being the son of God not make sense if God wanted it to be so.
Can u question God?

eazy_mas
10-31-2006, 02:26 AM
I have some question about trinity.

where you say jesus, holy sprits and God is one.

could you exlpain it to more about it.

Ta Khent
10-31-2006, 09:46 AM
It seems to me that with God doing things in a round-a-bout way causes more confusion than anything. It would be simpler and less confusing for God to just reveal itself to everyone so that there would be no mistake about its existence or what it looks like. It should not send a messenger to deliver its word because humans are fallible and are therefore subject to error.

Also, if the creation reflects the Creator and the creation is imperfect, does that make the Creator imperfect as well?

The Noose
10-31-2006, 12:05 PM
It seems to me that with God doing things in a round-a-bout way causes more confusion than anything. It would be simpler and less confusing for God to just reveal itself to everyone so that there would be no mistake about its existence or what it looks like. It should not send a messenger to deliver its word because humans are fallible and are therefore subject to error.

Also, if the creation reflects the Creator and the creation is imperfect, does that make the Creator imperfect as well?

Thats exactly wat ive always thought. His greatest creation is ****ed up. The whole "he gave us free will" argument is strange. Why would a God that wants us to worship him allow us to chose not to?

I follow my heart and be honest with myself, and i dont believe in a God. Would God rather I lie and say I accept Jesus and pray to God in order to go to heaven?
Dammned if i do, dammned if i dont.

But i dont take any of it literally. I find it interesting metaphorically or philosophically.

K-DOGG
10-31-2006, 01:26 PM
Thats exactly wat ive always thought. His greatest creation is ****ed up. The whole "he gave us free will" argument is strange. Why would a God that wants us to worship him allow us to chose not to?

I follow my heart and be honest with myself, and i dont believe in a God. Would God rather I lie and say I accept Jesus and pray to God in order to go to heaven?
Dammned if i do, dammned if i dont.

But i dont take any of it literally. I find it interesting metaphorically or philosophically.

1. Why give us the choice? Presuming we are made in God's image, then surely the ability to be perfect is within us; but drown out by our Earthly thinking. I suggest the reason God gave us the choice was one of his own personal "wants", so to speak. Not to suggest God needs anything, for he does not; but "wants" is another matter altogether. If he made us, we are his children by proxy, so ask yourself: Would you want your children to choose to love you? Is it the same if you "make them"? No. Love is God and what is in us; we choose to love who we wish. God wants us to choose to believe in him and love him. At least that's what I think.

We, who desire to be loved, are made in God's image, so it's only logical that He/She desires to be loved as well. Kind of off the cuff; but can you imagine how lonely it must be to be God? Maybe that's why he created us to begin with. Just a thought.


2. No. He doesn't want you to lie. Just keep being yourself and follow your path. Eventually, you'll get to where you're supposed to go.....at least that's how I try to approach life.

K-DOGG
10-31-2006, 01:30 PM
It seems to me that with God doing things in a round-a-bout way causes more confusion than anything. It would be simpler and less confusing for God to just reveal itself to everyone so that there would be no mistake about its existence or what it looks like. It should not send a messenger to deliver its word because humans are fallible and are therefore subject to error.

Also, if the creation reflects the Creator and the creation is imperfect, does that make the Creator imperfect as well?


lol!!! Where's the fun in that?! ;)

K-DOGG
10-31-2006, 01:32 PM
I have some question about trinity.

where you say jesus, holy sprits and God is one.

could you exlpain it to more about it.


Do you mean where in the Bible it says this, or are you asking we mere mortals to explain the nature of the immortal God?

If it's the second, I did the best I could to guess in my last post on the last page, which was a response to you....Bobby Peru quoted it on this page.

eazy_mas
10-31-2006, 02:08 PM
It seems to me that with God doing things in a round-a-bout way causes more confusion than anything. It would be simpler and less confusing for God to just reveal itself to everyone so that there would be no mistake about its existence or what it looks like. It should not send a messenger to deliver its word because humans are fallible and are therefore subject to error.

Also, if the creation reflects the Creator and the creation is imperfect, does that make the Creator imperfect as well?

Do you think the God put you in this Earth and you wont be tested.

God created the Earth as it is and he gave us the power to choose what is right and what is wrong.

Yes we are not perfect but that does not mean that everything in the world is bad. You have to patience if you got something bad because that will make you stronger .

Do you mean where in the Bible it says this, or are you asking we mere mortals to explain the nature of the immortal God?

If it's the second, I did the best I could to guess in my last post on the last page, which was a response to you....Bobby Peru quoted it on this page.


but still you didnt answer or discribed the trinity thing?

why would God be three and one at the same time. logically speaking 3 is not equal to 1.

I dont know much about the bible but the trinity is a trick thing that is very misleading.

K-DOGG
10-31-2006, 02:18 PM
but still you didnt answer or discribed the trinity thing?

why would God be three and one at the same time. logically speaking 3 is not equal to 1.

I dont know much about the bible but the trinity is a trick thing that is very misleading.


I know "The Father, The Son, and The Holy Ghost/Spirt" are referred to in the Bible. Who am I to question how God describes himself? If he says the three are one, I'm not going to question it.

Jesus referred to the Father & The Holy Spirit....the Spirit filled his apostles on the Day of Penecost after he had returned to heaven and caused them to speak in toungues so all of the people could hear the word of God.

The Three are One and our human logic does not need to understand how. I described my interpretation of it the best I could; but as far as actually knowing or questioning why? Who am I to question God?

I don't question that he made all that is, so I will not question how he is three. He is God and with Him all things are Possible.

eazy_mas
10-31-2006, 02:26 PM
I know "The Father, The Son, and The Holy Ghost/Spirt" are referred to in the Bible. Who am I to question how God describes himself? If he says the three are one, I'm not going to question it.

Jesus referred to the Father & The Holy Spirit....the Spirit filled his apostles on the Day of Penecost after he had returned to heaven and caused them to speak in toungues so all of the people could hear the word of God.

The Three are One and our human logic does not need to understand how. I described my interpretation of it the best I could; but as far as actually knowing or questioning why? Who am I to question God?

I don't question that he made all that is, so I will not question how he is three. He is God and with Him all things are Possible.


But the question is the bible was changed so many times and transultaed so is it really God's word?

another thing there was a bible magazine which stated that the bible has 30,000 mistakes. Imagine if you have a map with 30,000 mistake will you reach your destantion.

K-DOGG
10-31-2006, 03:22 PM
But the question is the bible was changed so many times and transultaed so is it really God's word?

another thing there was a bible magazine which stated that the bible has 30,000 mistakes. Imagine if you have a map with 30,000 mistake will you reach your destantion.

Regarding the whole of the Bible, yes there are mistakes and some taints here and there; but the words of Jesus are what I abide by in the books of Matthew, Mark, and Luke in particular. The Book of John has a touch of taintedness to it, so I take it with a grain of salt. Being a child of God isn't about dogma or ritual or other such symantics; it's about what's in your heart and how you live in regards to the other souls with whom you share this plain of existance. Buddha spoke his message 500 years before Jesus and 1000 years before Mohammed. Surely all goodness comes from God, for He/She is all that is Good. Men err, God does not.

Also, as I'd alluded to earlier, some of the mistakes in the Bible are in regards to the Old Testament, particularly the Torah, which is something that should concern you, as a Muslim, for Mohammed echoed some of the stories in the Torah, which have been proven historically inaccurate. Now, if you think about it, that means there is a great possibility that the Quran is also in err.

That may sound like blasphemy to you; but I am not aiming to offend, just to point out the logical conclusion of the facts. Since the Bible had many authors, and some parts which were written well over 3000 years ago, erors are more likely, or more easily detected than in a book written by one man 1500 years ago. The greater the number of people, the greater the chance for mistakes and the greater the chance for contradiction.

Since I have not gone over the whole Quran with a fine-tooth comb yet, I won't go into detail about my suspicions. I will say this, though: the whole belief in Islam is based on the validity of the Quran being the cotinuation of the Torah and, therefore being the true Word of God.....and all of this hinges on the belief that Mohammed was a prophet of the one, true God.

Just as Christianity is proven false if Jesus is not the Son of God, Islam is proven false if Mohammed is not the Prophet of God; or, more specifically, if Jesus is the Son of God, which is contrary to what Mohammed teaches in the Quran, then the whole of the Book can only be construed as false, since it only has one authror.

As you can see, it is along the edge of a knife that this conversation lies. Christianity is based upon a belief, just as Islam is based upon a separate belief. I choose to believe that Jesus was the Son of God just as you choose to believe Mohammed was the prophet of God and Jesus was only a prophet and not the Son of God. I do not judge you for your beliefs, as it is not my place as a mere human. All I do is disagree. Ultimately, God will be the one who decides who, if either of us, is right; and that is an answer neither of us will know until we are no longer of this world, for neither can be proven beyond the writings of men long dead.

I do believe the truth is out there; and think and study and reason rather than solely listening to what someones tells me. I believe the picture, the whole picture, of God and his plan for us is bigger than is held in any one book; but because we are simple creatures by comparison who cannot possibly conceive of God's entire plan, we are given bits and pieces which we can understand. I believe God does this on purpose becaue he knows us and our limitations. We are given just enough for us, so that we can serve our purpose, which is to love one another.

The problem with us, is we like to "be right"; and "more right" than others; this is the sin of self-righteousness and arrogance, quite honestly. Instead of focussing on the good that God sends each of us, we are determined to tell others that the good God gave them is wrong, thus, we create our own discontent and mistrust where we could all have heaven here, in some form, on this mortal plain.

Maybe part of this problem we share is Satan-influenced, for he is the Father of Lies and would enjoy nothing more than for all of us to fight amongst ourselves and forget God so that we might have hell on earth and in the afterlife as well. Who knows?

All I know is what I believe and I am willing to discuss anything of religious origin with any believer or non-believer, for it is only through communication in a free and non-judgemental way that we can all learn; but we must not presume that we "know the whole truth", for we do not. At least, that's what I think.

The Noose
10-31-2006, 04:51 PM
1. Why give us the choice? Presuming we are made in God's image, then surely the ability to be perfect is within us; but drown out by our Earthly thinking. I suggest the reason God gave us the choice was one of his own personal "wants", so to speak. Not to suggest God needs anything, for he does not; but "wants" is another matter altogether. If he made us, we are his children by proxy, so ask yourself: Would you want your children to choose to love you? Is it the same if you "make them"? No. Love is God and what is in us; we choose to love who we wish. God wants us to choose to believe in him and love him. At least that's what I think.

We, who desire to be loved, are made in God's image, so it's only logical that He/She desires to be loved as well. Kind of off the cuff; but can you imagine how lonely it must be to be God? Maybe that's why he created us to begin with. Just a thought.


2. No. He doesn't want you to lie. Just keep being yourself and follow your path. Eventually, you'll get to where you're supposed to go.....at least that's how I try to approach life.

1. Makes sense. The part about children and love.
I could play devils advocate, but id be doing it just for the sake of it.

2. I realised a long time ago that God knows u and wats in ur heart. It was at that moment i knew it was ok not to believe in Him, for he knew why i made this choice.
My revelation of atheistic freedom.


As far as ur other quotes on God being lonley i have my own twisted idea;
God is alone and hates it, He cannot escape himself and knows everything he makes is really just part of himself.
His only escape is in dreams.
He dreams of angels, the universe then of humans who do not have knowledge of God. They are creatures who cannot fathom Him.
And so God forgets who he is and how there is only Him and nothing else.
But then in his dream the humans create Gods, they start to worship their Gods. Jesus is born and is believed to be God. (as in our dreams our anxieties and fears show themself) Now all humans believe in God, they believe He is everywhere and all things come from Him.
Gods dream has turned into a nightmare and showed Him his 'creations' are just part of himself, and he is still alone.

Its really just me. Every artwork/photo i take just reflects my problems back at me.
Anyway... continue ur debate, its interesting.

K-DOGG
10-31-2006, 06:04 PM
1. Makes sense. The part about children and love.
I could play devils advocate, but id be doing it just for the sake of it.

2. I realised a long time ago that God knows u and wats in ur heart. It was at that moment i knew it was ok not to believe in Him, for he knew why i made this choice.
My revelation of atheistic freedom.


As far as ur other quotes on God being lonley i have my own twisted idea;
God is alone and hates it, He cannot escape himself and knows everything he makes is really just part of himself.
His only escape is in dreams.
He dreams of angels, the universe then of humans who do not have knowledge of God. They are creatures who cannot fathom Him.
And so God forgets who he is and how there is only Him and nothing else.
But then in his dream the humans create Gods, they start to worship their Gods. Jesus is born and is believed to be God. (as in our dreams our anxieties and fears show themself) Now all humans believe in God, they believe He is everywhere and all things come from Him.
Gods dream has turned into a nightmare and showed Him his 'creations' are just part of himself, and he is still alone.

Its really just me. Every artwork/photo i take just reflects my problems back at me.
Anyway... continue ur debate, its interesting.

That ain't so twisted, Bobby.

BrooklynBomber
10-31-2006, 07:52 PM
It seems to me that with God doing things in a round-a-bout way causes more confusion than anything. It would be simpler and less confusing for God to just reveal itself to everyone so that there would be no mistake about its existence or what it looks like. It should not send a messenger to deliver its word because humans are fallible and are therefore subject to error.

Also, if the creation reflects the Creator and the creation is imperfect, does that make the Creator imperfect as well?

NOw that is definately Hume....
Feels so good reading educated people.

Ta Khent
10-31-2006, 08:02 PM
NOw that is definately Hume....
Feels so good reading educated people.

Who is Hume?

K-DOGG
10-31-2006, 08:19 PM
Who is Hume?

David Hume, 18th Century Philosopher....I think that's who he's referring to.

BrooklynBomber
10-31-2006, 09:09 PM
Who is Hume?

David Hume. Your ideas of religion are very alike of Hume.
I suggest you read his works, you guys pretty much share your view points on G-d.

BrooklynBomber
10-31-2006, 09:10 PM
David Hume, 18th Century Philosopher....I think that's who he's referring to.

Yes, sir, you are correct.
Are you familiar with his works?

Ta Khent
10-31-2006, 09:19 PM
David Hume. Your ideas of religion are very alike of Hume.
I suggest you read his works, you guys pretty much share your view points on G-d.


I'll do that.

phallus
10-31-2006, 10:35 PM
Do you think the God put you in this Earth and you wont be tested.

God created the Earth as it is and he gave us the power to choose what is right and what is wrong.

Yes we are not perfect but that does not mean that everything in the world is bad. You have to patience if you got something bad because that will make you stronger .




but still you didnt answer or discribed the trinity thing?

why would God be three and one at the same time. logically speaking 3 is not equal to 1.

I dont know much about the bible but the trinity is a trick thing that is very misleading.



the trinity just means one God expressed three different ways - as Jesus, God and the holy spirit.

K-DOGG
11-01-2006, 12:36 PM
Yes, sir, you are correct.
Are you familiar with his works?


Only in passing, to be honest.

The Noose
11-03-2006, 11:16 AM
2. No. He doesn't want you to lie. Just keep being yourself and follow your path. Eventually, you'll get to where you're supposed to go.....at least that's how I try to approach life.

I have a question about that.
One of the main criticisms about Christianity is the 'need to be saved'. Of needing to repent in order to get to heaven and avoid hell. Following ur heart is not enough. U must believe in Jesus and become a christian.

In my godless belief that would really mean, 'if ur not honest with urself and lead a life ur proud of u will be forever feel the guilt and shame of ur wrong doings'.
Basically ur conscience knows that u have ****ed up, and u must 'repent' or make up for it somhow in order for u to not feel like such an *******.
Like Scrooge!

But alot of Christians preach that u MUST BELIEVE in Jesus, no matter how good of a person u are, in order to get to heaven. That pisses off alot of people. Especially young goth types.

K-DOGG
11-03-2006, 05:19 PM
I have a question about that.
One of the main criticisms about Christianity is the 'need to be saved'. Of needing to repent in order to get to heaven and avoid hell. Following ur heart is not enough. U must believe in Jesus and become a christian.

In my godless belief that would really mean, 'if ur not honest with urself and lead a life ur proud of u will be forever feel the guilt and shame of ur wrong doings'.
Basically ur conscience knows that u have ****ed up, and u must 'repent' or make up for it somhow in order for u to not feel like such an *******.
Like Scrooge!

But alot of Christians preach that u MUST BELIEVE in Jesus, no matter how good of a person u are, in order to get to heaven. That pisses off alot of people. Especially young goth types.

He asks "the question". Well Bobby, it's a pickle.....and this answer is a long one, so I apologize.

To be technical, the core of Christianity is that you do believe that Jesus Christ was the Son of God and that you follow his instruction on how to live. And Jesus said that if you deny me in this life, I will deny you before my Father on Judgement day. That's not an exact quote; but that's essentially it.

Now, does that mean that everybody besides faithful Christians are going to hell? I really don't know, bud. Technically speaking, that could put me in hell as well because I don't go to church. I worship God in my heart and stand up for him and Jesus when the opportunity arises; but according to the teachings at the Chruch I grew up in, that's still not enough and I'm going to be damned worse than those who never believed to begin with....because I know better, so to speak.

The problem that bothered me after I began really thinking about it, was that the church I grew up in said anyone not a member of that church was going to hell to because other people weren't following the Bible to a tee.....ergo, worshipping properly. They believed they were right and everyone else was wrong, which of course I found to be not an uncommon belief in other denominations. By reason then, if everybody believed you had to be a member of their church and their particular brand of worship "or else", then, technically, no body was going to make it to heaven because we were all going to go to hell. Obviously, to me, this was a ludicrous thought.

Then, I applied that line of thinking to non-Christians. Mahatma Ghandi was an inherantly good man and did many good things. Was this man going to hell? What about all the other good people who worshipped God; but not through teh Christian belief-system? Ghandi claimed to be a Christian, a Hindu, and a Muslim. How can one man be all three, I kept asking myself. Technically, you can't be all three, for there are conflicts, such as the one I pointed out to easy_mas between Islam and Christianity.

I've studied Native American's take on religion, a little Buddhism, Wicca, and a few others searching for some tying thread. I came across account after account of supposed Christians behaving very un-Christian like and non-believers behaving in a way that Christ would surely approve of. What did all this mean?

There's a passage in Luke, which escapes me; but, in essence, James, I believe, and another disciple saw this person casting out demons who was not a follower of Jesus, and they came running to Jesus to tell him of what they saw and ask his advice on what they should do. Should they repremand this person? And Jesus said something to the effect of, "Those who are not against us, are with us.".....which mean leave him alone, he's on our side.

Also, I've asked myself, "If I had been raised as a Muslim, or a Buddhist, or a Hindu, or any other religion besides Christianity, would hearing about Jesus be enough to sway me?" That's a hard question to answer. Muslims are taught that Jesus was a prophet, like Moses, and that Mohammed completed their work. All you have to do is look at practicing Muslims, who are devoted to their religion, and see the fervor with which they pray and worship and live. The same can be said for really religious Jews or Hindus or Buddists. If I was "sure" that I was on the right path and some Christian came to me and started talking about Jesus, telling me he was the Son of God and that he came to Earth in human form to die for my sins, so that I might inherit eternal life, when I already thought I was on the path to enlightenment, or heaven with what I was doing,....would I believe?

I really don't know, because that's a pretty tall order to believe that God walked the Earth in human form and sacrificed his own son, so that I could be "saved"......espeicially when you consider that I'm being "saved" from "original sin" which came from the whole Adam and Eve episode....and that they probably never existed at all, but were, in fact, the Hebrew version of the Egyptian tale of Osirus, Isis, Horus, and Set. What am I being saved from if Adam and Eve never lived? Or were Adam and Eve, Osirus and Isis the same in another sense and through time and the obscuring of it, was the truth ultimately lost? As you can see, when you really look into it, it's extemely fuzzy as to what the truth actually is.

So, I still seek the truth, or a notion of it; but accept that the ultimate truth will never be known, at least not in this life. What does that leave me with? Jesus. I know he existed; and can see through his words that he was a good and wise and just man, in the very least. Also, if everything that is written about his works is true, then surely something was extraordinarily special about him. The fact that we're still talking about him 2000 years later means something; and since I'm more familiar with him and believe his instructions on how to live and love one another to be just, I choose to believe in him. He says he's the Son of God; and looking at his life as it is portrayed through the Gospels and what he had to say and whom he said things to, what he did, and how he gave up his life without a fight, I choose to believe he is. Where's the harm if I'm wrong?


So, getting back to your original question, I really don't know, Bobby. Christians are so divided amongst themselves, I fail to see how they can tell others how to worship or what their fate is or will be at the end of time. I choose to believe there is a God because I see too much order in the Universe, in Life, in the way things play out among us in life. I believe there is a Supernatural Influence of some sort; but feel it must be far more complicated than what we see in the varioius forms of worship.....or, maybe Merovingian's right. That is a distinct possibility.

I don't want to believe that good people are going to hell just because they don't worship through Christianity, or at all. That doestn' seem fair to me at all. Christians do "turn people off" with their hypocrisy, their self-righteousness, their in-fighting, and uncertainty of their own belief, so I can't see how God, who is all knowing, can condemn people for not believing in a faith where the folowers can't even present an unified front.


That's a long way of saying, "I don't know", Bobby....but I like showing why "I don't know". Sorry.

eazy_mas
11-03-2006, 06:27 PM
the trinity just means one God expressed three different ways - as Jesus, God and the holy spirit.

could you explain more why God needs to be expressed in three different ways?

K-DOGG
11-03-2006, 06:32 PM
could you explain more why God needs to be expressed in three different ways?


Maybe God chooses to be expressed in three different ways. Who are we to question God as to how he/she wants to be expressed? Maybe he was lonley and divided himself into three parts so he'd always have someone intelligent to talk to...who knows?

I'm honestly surprised that you question it, if the Quran is the continutation and completion of the Torah. In Genesis, which is in the Torah, where it speaks of God creating the heavens and the earth, on more than one occassion, God is referred to as "we". Who's we, if not God, and why is God referring to himself/herself as "we" if there were not three parts, or at least two?

eazy_mas
11-03-2006, 06:43 PM
Maybe God chooses to be expressed in three different ways. Who are we to question God as to how he/she wants to be expressed? Maybe he was lonley and divided himself into three parts so he'd always have someone intelligent to talk to...who knows?

I'm honestly surprised that you question it, if the Quran is the continutation and completion of the Torah. In Genesis, which is in the Torah, where it speaks of God creating the heavens and the earth, on more than one occassion, God is referred to as "we". Who's we, if not God, and why is God referring to himself/herself as "we" if there were not three parts, or at least two?

The God in the bible and the Torah is the same God that is in the Quran.

you dont question God but God is the one perfect and if you think God need a partner then he is not perfect.

The " We" in the quran is where God refers to himself is means it him only him.
in the arabic languge sometime if you refer to the purler it gives more power and respect.

K-DOGG
11-03-2006, 07:01 PM
The God in the bible and the Torah is the same God that is in the Quran.

you dont question God but God is the one perfect and if you think God need a partner then he is not perfect.

The " We" in the quran is where God refers to himself is means it him only him.
in the arabic languge sometime if you refer to the purler it gives more power and respect.

They use it in the English language as the "Royal We", which means essentially what you said; but that is open to interpretation. It can, in fact, be either or.

And you're misunderstanding the interpretation of the Trinity, I think. Saying God is three is not saying he needs helpers, it's just stating that that is his nature. The three are one; this is the nature of God. It is not saying the Holy Spirt and the Son are his helpers, for they are all equal. God needs no helpers; but he still created Angels who help him, or serve him. So, you see, God does have "helpers"; but the other two parts of himself are NOT helpers....they ARE Him....for God, by definition, is beyond our comprehension.

K-DOGG
11-03-2006, 07:25 PM
Another point to think about on the whole "we" question is the different names of God. In the Torah, God is referred to both as Elohim and as Yaweh, depending upon who wrote which part, for the Torah has at least three different authors, if memory serves me correctly.

Over the next few posts, I'm going to paste some research that will really bake some noodles....darn near did mine.

eazy_mas
11-03-2006, 07:25 PM
They use it in the English language as the "Royal We", which means essentially what you said; but that is open to interpretation. It can, in fact, be either or.

And you're misunderstanding the interpretation of the Trinity, I think. Saying God is three is not saying he needs helpers, it's just stating that that is his nature. The three are one; this is the nature of God. It is not saying the Holy Spirt and the Son are his helpers, for they are all equal. God needs no helpers; but he still created Angels who help him, or serve him. So, you see, God does have "helpers"; but the other two parts of himself are NOT helpers....they ARE Him....for God, by definition, is beyond our comprehension.

the weird thing the most vid about christians convert to islam is due to the complex idea of trinity.

Jesus is human and was hurt by the people of israel and was totured. but these people dont it to God?

The story of Jesus in the Quran is that he wasnt totured but he was send to heaven and the person who was totured was the guy who betrayed Jesus. Jesus will come out in the time of the Anti-Christ.

What are your thought of the anit-christ and Masaha?

K-DOGG
11-03-2006, 07:35 PM
the weird thing the most vid about christians convert to islam is due to the complex idea of trinity.

Jesus is human and was hurt by the people of israel and was totured. but these people dont it to God?

The story of Jesus in the Quran is that he wasnt totured but he was send to heaven and the person who was totured was the guy who betrayed Jesus. Jesus will come out in the time of the Anti-Christ.

What are your thought of the anit-christ and Masaha?


That's interesting...I haven't gotten to the story of Jesus in the Koran, yet. I'm only just beginning the "third Chapter"; but that's fascinating, to say the least. Of course, I believe that Jesus was tortured because he allowed himself to be....he could have stopped it at any time, had he chosen to do so; but submitted to that anguish to show his love for us....but, that's another story.

The Anti-Christ? Well, I really haven't developed an opinion on "him" yet. The common train of thought is that there are, or will be 3 of them: Napoleon was believed to be the first, Hitler was the second, and I've read varying sources on the coming of the third. One is that he is to come out of the Middle East and wear a Red Tuban, another that he is to come from the United States and is to be a powerful businessman or politician; but the most interesting one by far, was the prediction that it will be the very next Pope....the one coming after Benedict. Supposedly, he will be known as "Peter the Roman"...which would actually fit certain passages in the book of Revolations. I haven't studied the "doomsday stuff" in quite a while; but it's definetly on my to-do list. I find it morbidly fascinating.

K-DOGG
11-03-2006, 07:38 PM
Here it is, Chillun: Bake Your Noodle Time!!...of course, I suspect Merovingian has already read this; but for those who haven't....enjoy. A friend of mine, who is an atheist, shared this with me. I find it fascinating because it apparently traces down the origins of Judaesim, which was the basis for both Christianity and Islam.

Since I have an open-ended belief in God and his/her nature, this did not startle me, nor shake my faith; but if you feel that reading the probable origins of these faiths as they are known today will shake your faith, then read no further.


The evolution of God

Most people can't think, most of the remainder won't think, the small fraction who do think
mostly can't do it very well. The extremely tiny fraction who think regularly, accurately,
creatively, and without self-delusion- in the long run, these are the only people who count.
- Robert Heinlein


Does God exist? Believers take a great degree of comfort that their claims for the existence of God cannot be disproved. They might be ignorant of how scientific reason works or realize that scientific reasoning is based on tangible evidence. Science cannot directly ***8220;disprove***8221; the existence of God, simply because there is no physical evidence upon which to base a ***8220;disproof.***8221; This is nothing new in the history of scientific advancement. Rather then take that approach, scientific reasoning drives out erroneous ideas when stronger evidence points to a different paradigm. While Christians impugn the word ***8220;theory***8221; as if it represents a great deal of doubt, in the science lexicon, it is a way of expressing science***8217;s open-endedness. Ironically, religionists are certain of their faith, yet the word epitomizes belief without evidence.

We will leave aside the argument against the existence of god in the generic sense. A generic god cannot be defined. The word could mean almost anything within the limits of human imagination. Even the currently faddish explanation, Intelligent Design, tells us nothing of the attributes of this so-called form of intelligence. The hope among proponents is that believers will translate the idea to their favorite personal God.
Scientific reasoning avoids that trap by binding itself to observable evidence. With regards to cosmology, it can***8217;t be known if the universe had a beginning. The famous Big Bang Theory only suggests a cosmic explosion 10-20 billion years ago. Even NASA modestly admits:
Although the Big Bang Theory is widely accepted, it probably will never be proved; consequentially, leaving a number of tough, unanswered questions.

Suppose there is an infinite universe. By definition it can***8217;t be seen. The Big Bang, if it is true, may only have been an explosion within a universe with no beginning and no end. Or to say it another way, existence always existed. Science does not rise or fall on whether existence had a beginning or not. Mainstream religion***8217;s credibility cannot tolerate this ambiguity.
For that, we will turn our attention to the beginning of ***8220;God,***8221; the proper noun; when did god become God? Mainstream religions place no credibility in heathen religions, yet their very foundation rests on them. If ***8220;God***8221; had a beginning, archeological and historical evidence points to the polytheistic religions that preceded and paralleled the rise of Judaism and early Christianity. Religionists could argue that belief in a single God was a refinement of all the other ideas. The problem with that assertion is that without something concrete to guide the direction of their logic, there are as many explanations for the existence of a God or god(s) as human minds can imagine.

Fortunately, we have two concrete sources from which to trace the evolution of God: archeology and the Bible. By that route, this report will show that Israelite religion branched off from the Canaanite religions. The Israelites were not monotheists; they were henotheists, which mean that their culture was defined by their worship of Yahweh as their only god, but they did not deny the existence of other gods. During their earliest history they also worshipped El, from which their namesake derived, and Baal and Asherah. The idea of a single exclusive God didn***8217;t enter Hebrew culture until the Babylonian exile. By extension, this is the false foundation on which Christianity and Islam rest.

The ancient Israelites did not live in a cultural vacuum. From prehistoric times, Canaan was linked to Egypt and Mesopotamia. Those two powerful nations dominated Canaan and Israel from the mid-third to the first millennium BCE. The first mention of Israel comes from an inscribed monument of the pharaoh Mernaptah. This stele dates to the fifth year of the pharaoh***8217;s reign (ca. 120) and mentions both Israel and Canaan.

The princes are prostrate, saying: ***8220;Mercy!***8221;
No one raises his head among the Nine Bows.
Desolation is for ***8216;Tehenu; Hatis is pacified;
Plundered is the Canaan with every evil;
Carried off is Ashelon; seized upon is Gezer;
Yanoam is made as that which does not exist;
Israel is laid waste, his seed is not;
Hurru is become a widow for Egypt;
All lands together, they are pacified;
Everyone who is restless, he has been bound.

Surely, the Israelites were late comers to the history of religion. Says Smith ***8220;The word ***8216;Canaan***8217; is written with a special linguistic feature called a determinative, denoting land. ***8216;Israel***8217; is written with the determinative for people.***8221; In other words, there was an ethnic group call Israel, before it became a kingdom or city-state

El and Baal

The study of Canaanite deities in connection with Yahweh was made possible by the discovery of ancient texts, especially from the ancient city of Ugarit in 1929. Now called Ras Shamra, it is located on the coast of Syria.

The Ugaritic mythological texts feature the deities El, the aged and kindly patriarch of the pantheon. Asherah was his consort and queen mother of the divine family. Baal was the young storm-god and divine warrior. His sister was Anat, likewise a martial deity. They also mention a solar deity.
El was the creator of all things and was believed to be the father of all things. Over time, El***8217;s name became the generic Semitic term for any god. El was the oldest of the gods. He was head of the divine council, and he was well respected for his wisdom and judgment. El***8217;s home was in the mountains, far to the north, believed to be the source of the waters of the cosmos. El lived far away where the waters originated, up in the mountains. When the other gods want to consult with El, they must go to where El is.

The most significant epithet given to El was ***8220;the Bull El.***8221; The mainstream interpretation is that the name symbolized strength, but I think it had more to do astrological Age of Taurus when the god was popular. His consort was his sister, the mother of the god Ashura or Elat. El***8217;s other sister, Astarte, was also his mistress, and so was his daughter Anat, who is also the wife of his son, Baal. The divine relationships show plenty of incest and a lot of fertility.

El also appears as a divine warrior, but only in the context of gaining supremacy over the other gods. Once he becomes dominant among equals, he retires from warfare and the work of divine warrior falls to Baal. Baal also sits at El***8217;s right hand in the council of gods. Baal was initially a god of the storm who made the earth fertile by providing rain. The name of Baal means ***8220;Lord or master.***8221; And like El, the name of Baal became a generic identification for gods. Sometime in the murkiness of Israelite history, the Israelite cult of Yahweh arose as belief in El faded.

K-DOGG
11-03-2006, 07:39 PM
Hebrew origins of Yahweh

To hear the monotheists (Christian, Jewish; Islam) tell it, there was one god who created the universe ***8212;theirs. The way the Bible tells it, there were many gods responsible for the origins of the universe. We learn this by translating to Hebrew. ***8220;El***8221; is the singular for god and ***8220;elohim***8221; is its plural form. Thus in the first creation story:

1In the beginning God [Elohim] created the heavens and the earth. (Gen. 1:1)
26Then God [Elohim] said, ***8220;Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth.***8221; (Gen. 1:26)

The name ***8220;Yahweh***8221; first appears in the second creation story, but as Yahweh elohim, meaning ***8220;Yahweh of the gods.***8221; If this is to be interpreted as a continuation of the first creation, then it is about one of the gods, Yahweh, who created a particular place, Eden, within the greater universe.

These are the generations of the heavens and the earth when they were created. In the day that the LORD [Yahweh] God [elohim] made the earth and the heavens,

when no plant of the field was yet in the earth and no herb of the field had yet sprung up***8212;for the LORD [Yahweh] God [elohim] had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was no man to till the ground; (Gen. 2:4-5)

The story of Noah***8217;s Ark has two different writers, scholars call ***8220;J***8221; and ***8220;E.***8221;

The LORD [Yahweh] saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. (Gen. 6:5)

And God [Elohim] said to Noah, ***8220;I have determined to make an end of all flesh; for the earth is filled with violence through them; behold, I will destroy them with the earth. (Gen. 6:13)

Genesis 15:11 asks ***8220;Who is like you among the gods.***8221;
***8220;Who is like thee, O LORD [Yahweh], among the gods? (Gen. 15:11)

And of course there are the famous words of the First Commandment, ***8220;You shall have no other gods before me.***8221;

***8220;You shall have no other gods before me. (Gen. 20:1)

Christian apologists try to have it both ways by saying that the plural refers to the Holy Trinity. To do that they would have to ignore the pluralismsalien gods, and pantheon of lesser gods mentioned throughout the Bible. Clearly, the early Hebrews were henotheists who recognized the existence of many gods.

From El to Yahweh

As suggestive by the ***8220;El***8221; in the name ***8220;Israel,***8221; the original god of Israel was El. Why this is likely is because there are no polemics against El. There is no distinct cult identified with El except when identified as Yahweh. As the Bible tells us ***8220;Semite***8221; comes from Shem, Noah***8217;s oldest son (Gen. 5:32) and ***8220;Hebrew***8221; is derived from Eber, a descendant of Shem (Gen. 10:21). Incidentally, Babylonia comes from bili, meaning ***8220;gate of God.***8221;

Most times, ***8220;El***8221; and ***8220;Elohim***8221; are used as a general term for god. But there are a few passages where ***8220;El***8221; and ***8220;Elohim***8221; are used as proper names.

El is presented separately from Yahweh. El Shadday means ***8220;El of the mountain,***8221; not El Almighty as the revisionists translate in the Bible. Similar to El, Yahweh was thought to live on a mountaintop. It brings to mind, Moses***8217; visit to Mount Sinai to receive the Ten Commandments.

I wait for thy salvation, O LORD [Yahweh].

yet his bow remained unmoved, his arms were made agile by the hands of the Mighty One of Jacob (by the name of the Shepherd, the Rock of Israel),

by the God [El] of your father who will help you, by God Almighty [shadday] who will bless you with blessings of heaven above, blessings of the deep that couches beneath, blessings of the breasts and of the womb. (Gen. 49:18, 24-25)

Yahweh is cast as one of the sons of El, called elyon here. He has portioned the land allotted to Jacob. At first Yahweh co-existed with the Canaanite gods, but later competed as a warrior god. There is a kind of a parallel in several Bible stories where brothers become rivals and the namesakes of competing geographies.

When the Most High [elyon] gave to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of men, he fixed the bounds of the peoples according to the number of the sons of God.

For the LORD***8217;S [Yahweh] portion is his people, Jacob his allotted heritage. (Deut. 32:8-9)
El has taken his place in the divine council as the one who holds judgment.

God [Elohim] has taken his place in the divine council; in the midst of the gods [elohim] he holds judgment: (Psalm 82:1)

Isaiah refers to the stars of El.
You said in your heart, ***8216;I will ascend to heaven; above the stars of God [El] I will set my throne on high; I will sit on the mount of assembly in the far north; (Isaiah 14:13)

El and Yahweh are distinguished as two different gods, with El as the superior. El Elohim means El of the gods, not mighty God***8212;the translators mislead.

The mighty [El] God [Elohim], even the LORD [Yahweh], hath spoken, and called the earth from the rising of the sun unto the going down thereof. (Psalm 50:1)

The Bible rarely distinguishes between El and Yahweh. The development of El into a generic noun meaning ***8220;god***8221; was compatible with the loss of El***8217;s distinct character in Israelite religion.

The LORD [Yahweh] God [El] of gods [elohim], the LORD God of gods, he knoweth, and Israel he shall know; if it be in rebellion, or if in transgression against the LORD, (save us not this day,) (Joshua 22:22 KJV)

Arise, O LORD [Yahweh]; O God [El], lift up thine hand: forget not the humble. (Psalm 10:12 KJV)
When Yahweh introduces himself to Moses, he reveals the fact that he was unknown to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Instead, they worshipped El Shadday, El of the mountain.

And God [Elohim] said to Moses, ***8220;I am the LORD [Yahweh].

I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, as God [El] Almighty [Shadday], but by my name the LORD [Yahweh] I did not make myself known to them. (Ex. 6:2-3)

Joshua remarks that the father of Abraham served other gods. It only stands to reason that Abraham did too.

And Joshua said to all the people, ***8220;Thus says the LORD [Yahweh], the God [Elohim] of Israel, ***8216;Your fathers lived of old beyond the Euphrates, Terah, the father of Abraham and of Nahor; and they served other gods [elohim]. (Joshua 24:2)

Ezekiel tells us that the Yahwistic god was inherited from the Canaanites.

and say, Thus says the Lord GOD [Yahweh] to Jerusalem: Your origin and your birth are of the land of the Canaanites; your father was an Amorite, and your mother a Hittite. (Ezek. 16:3)

Compare this sampling of biblical and Ugarit text. The tent and holy hill refer to the sky***8212;the stars rise and fall in an arc pattern. The circle above the earth refers to the Zodiac.
Yahweh dwells in a tent.

O LORD, who shall sojourn in thy tent? Who shall dwell on thy holy hill? (Psalm 15:1)

It is he who sits above the circle of the earth, and its inhabitants are like grasshoppers; who stretches out the heavens like a curtain, and spreads them like a tent to dwell in; (Isa. 40:22)

El lives in a tent
She opened El***8217;s tent and entered
the shrine of the King, the Father of Time.

K-DOGG
11-03-2006, 07:41 PM
Baal and Yahweh

We***8217;re going to compare more biblical text with similar Ugarit text. These are the early years of the Israelite religion when Yahweh was a local god. The point is to show how early Judaism imitated Canaanite religion.

Yahweh was thought as a storm god. He brings rain, wind and lightening.

So Samuel called upon the LORD, and the LORD sent thunder and rain that day; and all the people greatly feared the LORD and Samuel. (1 Sam. 12:1)

***8220;Who has cleft a channel for the torents of rain, and a way for the thunderbolt,
to bring rain on a land where no man is, on the desert in which there is no man;
to satisfy the waste and desolate land, and to make the ground put forth grass?(Job 38:25-27)

The voice of the LORD is upon the waters; the God of glory thunders, the LORD, upon many waters.
The voice of the LORD is powerful, the voice of the LORD is full of majesty.
The voice of the LORD breaks the cedars, the LORD breaks the cedars of Lebanon.
He makes Lebanon to skip like a calf, and Sirion like a young wild ox.
The voice of the LORD flashes forth flames of fire.
The voice of the LORD shakes the wilderness, the LORD shakes the wilderness of Kadesh.
The voice of the LORD makes the oaks to whirl, and strips the forests bare; and in his temple all cry, ***8220;Glory!***8221; (Psalm 29:3-9)

When he utters his voice there is a tumult of waters in the heavens, and he makes the mist rise from the ends of the earth. He makes lightnings for the rain, and he brings forth the wind from his storehouses. (Jer. 10:13)

Are there any among the false gods of the nations that can bring rain? Or can the heavens give showers? Art thou not he, O LORD our God? We set our hope on thee, for thou doest all these things. (Jer. 14:22)

***8220;And I also withheld the rain from you when there were yet three months to the harvest; I would send rain upon one city, and send no rain upon another city; one field would be rained upon, and the field on which it did not rain withered; (Amos 4:7)

Baal controls the weather.
Now Baal will begin the rainy season,
the season of the wadis in flood;
and he will sound his voice in the clouds,
flash his lightening to the earth.

Yahweh the divine warrior rides on the clouds.
The LORD is a man of war; the LORD is his name. (Ex. 15:3)

The Mighty One, God the LORD, speaks and summons the earth from the rising of the sun to its setting.
Out of Zion, the perfection of beauty, God shines forth.
Our God comes, he does not keep silence, before him is a devouring fire, round about him a mighty tempest. (Psalms 50:1-3)

The LORD goes forth like a mighty man, like a man of war he stirs up his fury; he cries out, he shouts aloud, he shows himself mighty against his foes. (Isa. 42:13)

Sing to God, sing praises to his name; lift up a song to him who rides upon the clouds; his name is the LORD, exult before him! (Psalm 68:4)

Baal was portrayed as a conqueror who rides on the clouds.
Hail, Baal the Conqueror!
Hail, Rider on the Clouds!
For Prince of the Sea is our Captive,
Judge River is our captive.

Yahweh makes the clouds his chariot.

Thou crownest the year with thy bounty; the tracks of thy chariot drip with fatness (Psalm 65:11)

who hast laid the beams of thy chambers on the waters, who makest the clouds thy chariot, who ridest on the wings of the wind,
who makest the winds thy messengers, fire and flame thy ministers.(Psalm 104:3-4)

Was thy wrath against the rivers, O LORD? Was thy anger against the rivers, or thy indignation against the sea, when thou didst ride upon thy horses, upon thy chariot of victory? (Psalm 104)

Was thy wrath against the rivers, O LORD? Was thy anger against the rivers, or thy indignation against the sea, when thou didst ride upon thy horses, upon thy chariot of victory?(Hab. 3)

If the clouds are Yahweh***8217;s chariot, it is the sun which rides on the clouds. This is similar to pagan imagery where the sun is thought of as riding on a chariot. This verse refers to the chariots of the sun.

And he removed the horses that the kings of Judah had dedicated to the sun, at the entrance to the house of the LORD, by the chamber of Nathan-melech the chamberlain, which was in the precincts; and he burned the chariots of the sun with fire. (2 Kings 23:11)

Ancients thought of the sun as a wheel turning through the heavens. This gives meaning to Elijah***8217;s ascent into heaven.

And as they still went on and talked, behold, a chariot of fire and horses of fire separated the two of them. And Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven. (2 Kings 11)

In another imagery, the sun is thought here of as Yahweh***8217;s shield and face
.
1For the LORD God is a sun and shield; he bestows favor and honor. No good thing does the LORD withhold from those who walk uprightly. (Psalm 84:11)

Behold our shield, O God; look upon the face of thine anointed! (Psalm 84:9)

My soul thirsts for God, for the living God. When shall I come and behold the face of God? (Psalm 42:2)

During later times Ezekiel was critical of the Israelites who continued to worship the sun. The legacy of sun worship can be found in the place names with Shemesh attached, the name of the Babylonian sun god (Josh. 15:7, 10, 18:17, 19:41 & 21:16).

And he brought me into the inner court of the house of the LORD; and behold, at the door of the temple of the LORD, between the porch and the altar, were about twenty-five men, with their backs to the temple of the LORD, and their faces toward the east, worshiping the sun toward the east. (Ez. 8:16)

In Ugarit text, the sun is depicted as the gods***8217; torch.
And the Virgin Anat replied:
***8220;Wherever you go Sun,
wherever you go, may El protect you.
Sun, the gods***8217; torch, burns
the heavens shimmer under the sway of El***8217;s darling,
Death.

Yahweh has a sanctuary in Sinai.
He said, ***8220;The LORD came from Sinai, and dawned from Seir upon us; he shone forth from Mount Paran, he came from the ten thousands of holy ones, with flaming fire at his right hand. (Deut. 33:2)

The mountains quaked before the LORD, yon Sinai before the LORD, the God of Israel. (Jud. 5:5)
With mighty chariotry, twice ten thousand, thousands upon thousands, the Lord came from Sinai into the holy place. (Psalm 68:17)

Baal had a home on Mount Zaphon.
Baal***8217;s mountain, father, we weep for you,
Zaphon, the holy stronghold,
the holy stronghold will lament,
the stronghold wide and strong.

Watch the imagery in Exodus 19 when Moses enters the holy mountain of Sinai, to receive the Ten Commandments.

On the morning of the third day there were thunders and lightnings, and a thick cloud upon the mountain, and a very loud trumpet blast, so that all the people who were in the camp trembled.
Then Moses brought the people out of the camp to meet God; and they took their stand at the foot of the mountain.
And Mount Sinai was wrapped in smoke, because the LORD descended upon it in fire; and the smoke of it went up like the smoke of a kiln, and the whole mountain quaked greatly. (Ex. 19:16-1)

The Baal imagery is similar
Then Baal opened a slit in the clouds,
Baal sounded his holy voice,
Baal thundered from his lips ***8230;
the earth***8217;s high places shook.

K-DOGG
11-03-2006, 07:42 PM
Abraham***8217;s anachronism

Abraham, the Hebrew patriarch, comes to our knowledge as a nomadic Chaldean Semite from Ur (map below). The first documented reference to ***8220;Chaldea***8221; is found in the annals of Ashurnasirpal II, king of Assyria form 884 to 859 BCE. As we shall see, there was no Chaldea at the time Abraham.
Abraham***8217;s (Abram) father had intended to take his family to Canaan but stopped at Haran.

Terah took Abram his son and Lot the son of Haran, his grandson, and Sarai his daughter-in-law, his son Abram***8217;s wife, and they went forth together from Ur of the Chaldeans to go into the land of Canaan; but when they came to Haran, they settled there. (Gen. 11:31)

Yahweh told Abraham to continue the journey to Canaan.
Now the LORD [Yahweh] said to Abram, ***8220;Go from your country and your kindred and your father***8217;s house to the land that I will show you. (Gen. 12:1)

At face value alone, Abraham would have had to have spoken the Babylonian language and initially worshipped the same pagan gods. Joshua makes that point.

And Joshua said to all the people, ***8220;Thus says the LORD [Yahweh], the God [Elohim] of Israel, ***8216;Your fathers lived of old beyond the Euphrates, Terah, the father of Abraham and of Nahor; and they served other gods [elohim]. (Joshua 24:2)

To regress, some background history will give a sense of the influences felt in Israel. ***8220;Mesopotamia***8221; in Greek means ***8220;Between the Rivers.***8221; In the ancient world, northern Upper Mesopotamia referred to Assyria. The southern Lower Mesopotamia included Babylon itself and the cities of the earliest kingdoms of Akkad and Sumer. Ur is located at the junction of the Tigress-Euphrates where they flow into the Persian Gulf.

The people of the city of Sumer, the Sumerians became dominant around 3100 BCE; they were followed about two centuries later by the Amorites who settled to the north of the Sumerians in what is now Baghdad. The first kings were Akkadian, descendents of the Semitic Amorites. The first great king of Mesopotamia was Sargon the Great who ruled from 2334 BCE to 2279 BCE. At the end of his time, Akkad sank into obscurity with the return of the Sumerians into supremacy.

Their supremacy was established by a king named Ur-Nammu around 2111 BCE. Known as the third dynasty of Ur, it lasted about one century until the city of Ur was devastated by a group from the east called the Elamites in 2004 BCE. It is my personal guess that this is where Ur got its name. Kings don***8217;t take their name from cities, they name cities after themselves.

Babylon, the next city-state to rise to dominance, was formally Akkadian. Its first great king, Hammurabi dated from 1792 to 1750 BCE. Hammurabi is best remembered for his law code which was written on a stele topped by a depiction of Hammurabi himself before the sun god, Shamash. But he was not the first to write a law code***8212;that was Ur-Nammu. Contrary to biblical myth, the Ten Commandments were not the first law code. Rather, the Hebrews copied their neighbors.

In the centuries that followed, Mesopotamia was invaded by non-Semitics from the west, Hittites, Hurians and Kassites. From the upper Tigris valley, another Semitic people, the Assyrians came to prominence over Mesopotamia under Tukulti-Ninurta I, who sacked the city of Babylon in 1235 BCE***8212;thereby asserting his sovereignty over the south. The Bible calls him Nimrod (Gen. 10:8-10).

The first reference to Chaldea is found in the annals of Ashurnasirpal II, king of Assyria from 884 to 859 BCE. The last great king of Assyria was Assurbanipal, whose dates are 669 to 627 BCE. The Assyrians were dismantled by the Medians to the northeast and by the Kaldians (Chaldeans) or neo-Babylonians. Their first great king (604-562 BCE) was none other then Nebuchadnezzar of Jewish exile fame. Early Chaldea referred to southern Babylon. In later times, Chaldea became synonymous with the Babylonian Empire. The Chaldean dynasty held sway until the Persian invasion of 539 BCE.
Therefore at that time certain Chaldeans came forward and maliciously accused the Jews.
They said to King Nebuchadnezzar, ***8220;O king, live for ever! (Dan. 3:8-9)

The link between Ur and Chaldea gives away when the story of Abraham was written. While Ur was certainly an ancient city, Chaldea did not come become prominent until the seventh century under Nebuchadnezzar. By biblical accounts, Abraham existed from 2046-2100 BCE and the Chaldeans didn***8217;t exist until the 600s. Why? Ur was renowned as a place of learning during Chaldean times, especially to astrology. It would have enhanced Abraham's prestige to come from such a place.



This is a list of most other anachronisms.
Abraham is said to have contact with Philistines, but they did not enter the Palestine area before 12 BCE. According to Finkelstein, the mention of Gerar had a special significance. It was an insignificant village until the late eighth and seventh century BCE when it became a heavily fortified Assyrian stronghold and an obvious landmark.

Now there was a famine in the land, besides the former famine that was in the days of Abraham. And Isaac went to Gerar, to Abimelech king of the Philistines. (Gen. 26:1)

Arameans are mentioned, but they did not appear as a distinct group before 1100 BCE
.
These are the descendants of Isaac, Abraham***8217;s son: Abraham was the father of Isaac,
and Isaac was forty years old when he took to wife Rebekah, the daughter of Bethuel the Aramean of Paddanaram, the sister of Laban the Aramean. (Gen. 25:19-20)

The story of Jacob and Esau describes the fathers of Israel and Edom, but there was no state of Edom before the eighth century BCE.
And the LORD said to her, ***8220;Two nations are in your womb, and two peoples, born of you, shall be divided; the one shall be stronger than the other, the elder shall serve the younger.***8221;
30And Esau said to Jacob, ***8220;Let me eat some of that red pottage, for I am famished!***8221; (Therefore his name was called Edom. (Gen. 25:23, 30)

There are many mentions of domesticated camels, but as far as anyone can tell, camels were not domesticated much before the first millennium BCE, about the time when the kingdom of Israel was founded.

And he made the camels kneel down outside the city by the well of water at the time of evening, the time when women go out to draw water.
And he said, ***8220;O LORD, God of my master Abraham, grant me success today, I pray thee, and show steadfast love to my master Abraham.(Gen. 24:11-12)

The story of Joseph mentions camel caravan trade with the Ishmaelites (Arabians). Trade on that level flourished during the Assyrian empire in the eighth-seventh centuries BCE.

Then they sat down to eat; and looking up they saw a caravan of Ishmaelites coming from Gilead, with their camels bearing gum, balm, and myrrh, on their way to carry it down to Egypt.(Gen. 37:25)

Hebron was a principal city of Judah, so the writer has Abraham build an altar in Hebron

So Abram moved his tent, and came and dwelt by the oaks of Mamre, which are at Hebron; and there he built an altar to the LORD. (Gen. 13:1)

This passage describes the nation***8217;s boundaries under King David, written with hindsight.

On that day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, ***8220;To your descendants I give this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the river Euphrates, (Gen. 15:1)

Jacob saw God face to face at Peniel, a city built by King Jeroboam in Israel.

So Jacob called the name of the place Peniel, saying, ***8220;For I have seen God face to face, and yet my life is preserved.***8221; (Gen. 32:30)

For these reasons and more, Finkelstein places writing of the patriarch narratives in the eighth and seventh centuries BCE. This is not one man***8217;s opinion. There are probably some religious archeologists who refuse to concede, but the sources I***8217;ve found are in general agreement. Friedman tells us that scholars have given these writers alphabet names: ***8220;J***8221; for Yahweh and ***8220;E for Elohim. There were others, but these two are the ones we are concerned with. Friedman dates them between 1200-722 BCE when there were two kingdoms. Even as generous as Friedman is, that still leaves a thousand year difference between when Abraham supposedly lived and when Genesis was written. I could go through the same exercise with Moses and the Exodus. Instead, I***8217;ll pass on the words of Michael Deever

"After a century of exhaustive investigation, all respectable archaeologists have given up hope of recovering any context that would make Abraham, Isaac, or Jacob credible ***8220;historical figures.***8221; And, as we have seen, archaeological investigation of Moses and the Exodus has similarly been discarded as a fruitless pursuit."

K-DOGG
11-03-2006, 07:43 PM
The development of Israelite monotheism

In the second stage, the condemnation of foreign gods brings with it the implication that Yahweh has power over them. The trend starts with 1 Kings 18, which tells the story of Elijah who challenged the Baal priests to a contest to see which god could make wet wood burn. When Elijah won he had the priests killed.

These next three passages suggest Yahweh has power over other nations.

The LORD of hosts has sworn: ***8220;As I have planned, so shall it be, and as I have purposed, so shall it stand,
that I will break the Assyrian in my land, and upon my mountains trample him under foot; and his yoke shall depart from them, and his burden from their shoulder.***8221;
This is the purpose that is purposed concerning the whole earth; and this is the hand that is stretched out over all the nations. (Isa. 14:24-26)

An oracle concerning Egypt. Behold, the LORD is riding on a swift cloud and comes to Egypt; and the idols of Egypt will tremble at his presence, and the heart of the Egyptians will melt within them. (Isa. 19:1)

The concept of a supernatural heaven was developed sometime after the Bible was written. Ancients perceived the gods living in physical heaven.

Why should the nations say, ***8220;Where is their God?***8221;
Our God is in the heavens; he does whatever he pleases.
Their idols are silver and gold, the work of men***8217;s hands.
They have mouths, but do not speak; eyes, but do not see.
They have ears, but do not hear; noses, but do not smell.
have hands, but do not feel; feet, but do not walk; and they do not make a sound in their throat.
Those who make them are like them; so are all who trust in them. (Psalm 115:2-)

Several verses are critical of the emptiness of idol worship.

Thou hatest those who pay regard to vain idols; but I trust in the LORD.(Psalm 31:6)

To whom then will you liken God, or what likeness compare with him?
The idol! a workman casts it, and a goldsmith overlays it with gold, and casts for it silver chains.
He who is impoverished chooses for an offering wood that will not rot; he seeks out a skilful craftsman to set up an image that will not move. (Isa. 40:18-20)

And the idols shall utterly pass away.
And men shall enter the caves of the rocks and the holes of the ground, from before the terror of the LORD, and from the glory of his majesty, when he rises to terrify the earth. (Isa. 2:1)

All who make idols are nothing, and the things they delight in do not profit; their witnesses neither see nor know, that they may be put to shame.
Who fashions a god or casts an image, that is profitable for nothing?
Behold, all his fellows shall be put to shame, and the craftsmen are but men; let them all assemble, let them stand forth, they shall be terrified, they shall be put to shame together. (Isa. 44:9-11)

When you cry out, let your collection of idols deliver you! The wind will carry them off, a breath will take them away. But he who takes refuge in me shall possess the land, and shall inherit my holy mountains. (Isa. 57:13)

Have we not all one father? Has not one God created us? Why then are we faithless to one another, profaning the covenant of our fathers? (Mal. 2:10)

It wasn***8217;t until the exile or shortly beforehand when Judaism turned monotheistic, i.e. Yahweh was the only deity in the universe. This is dramatically stressed in second Isaiah and Jeremiah.

I am the LORD, and there is no other, besides me there is no God; I gird you, though you do not know me,
that men may know, from the rising of the sun and from the west, that there is none besides me; I am the LORD, and there is no other.
I form light and create darkness, I make weal and create woe, I am the LORD, who do all these things. (Isa. 45:5-7)

***8220;Remember this and consider, recall it to mind, you transgressors,
9remember the former things of old; for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me,
declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, ***8216;My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose,***8217; (Isa. 46:8-10)

But the LORD is the true God; he is the living God and the everlasting King. At his wrath the earth quakes, and the nations cannot endure his indignation.
Thus shall you say to them: ***8220;The gods who did not make the heavens and the earth shall perish from the earth and from under the heavens.***8221;
It is he who made the earth by his power, who established the world by his wisdom, and by his understanding stretched out the heavens. 3When he utters his voice there is a tumult of waters in the heavens, and he makes the mist rise from the ends of the earth. He makes lightnings for the rain, and he brings forth the wind from his storehouses.

Every man is stupid and without knowledge; every goldsmith is put to shame by his idols; for his images are false, and there is no breath in them.
They are worthless, a work of delusion; at the time of their punishment they shall perish. (Jer. 10:10-15)

Conclusion

That***8217;s the general outline of the offshoot of the Biblical god from the Canaanite gods, from a local god to the most powerful god to the only God. This is the foundation of the development of the Christian God and the Islamic God.

K-DOGG
11-03-2006, 07:58 PM
Heavy ****, ain't it?

If you've got any thoughts, post 'em.

I'm out, later. ;)

phallus
11-04-2006, 01:45 AM
could you explain more why God needs to be expressed in three different ways?

i think that's the onyl way to describe something so big we can't really comprehend

eazy_mas
11-04-2006, 02:23 AM
i think that's the onyl way to describe something so big we can't really comprehend


ask someone who has more knowlege maybe he could give you the right answer.

The Noose
11-04-2006, 03:11 PM
ask someone who has more knowlege maybe he could give you the right answer.

Lol.

I dont think it was Dr Filth who wanted to know!
Cheeky sod.

My personal take on the whole '3 parts of God' thing is that He is a complete being. A mother, father and child in one. Whole.
Whereas we are seperate from God and our parents, our children live on after we die, but God has no beginning or end. We only become whole again wen we join him in heaven.

It also would make sense that wen God refers to himself as 'we', he reminds us that we are all connected and come from the same place.

K-DOGG
11-06-2006, 08:21 PM
Lol.

I dont think it was Dr Filth who wanted to know!
Cheeky sod.

My personal take on the whole '3 parts of God' thing is that He is a complete being. A mother, father and child in one. Whole.
Whereas we are seperate from God and our parents, our children live on after we die, but God has no beginning or end. We only become whole again wen we join him in heaven.

It also would make sense that wen God refers to himself as 'we', he reminds us that we are all connected and come from the same place.

Nice take on the Trinity, there Bobby. Very nice.

phallus
11-06-2006, 11:13 PM
ask someone who has more knowlege maybe he could give you the right answer.

that's probably the best answer u're gonna get...besides, i'm not gonna write your term paper for u

phallus
11-06-2006, 11:15 PM
Lol.

I dont think it was Dr Filth who wanted to know!
Cheeky sod.

My personal take on the whole '3 parts of God' thing is that He is a complete being. A mother, father and child in one. Whole.
Whereas we are seperate from God and our parents, our children live on after we die, but God has no beginning or end. We only become whole again wen we join him in heaven.

It also would make sense that wen God refers to himself as 'we', he reminds us that we are all connected and come from the same place.

wow, that's truly beautiful, b0Bby, u give me the horn

The Noose
11-07-2006, 02:54 PM
wow, that's truly beautiful, b0Bby, u give me the horn

Most of my posts are basically aimed at giving somone the horn.
But i dont want to turn this thread into a slippery gay chindig.
Theres a time and a place for those fruity moments, and it aint here.

Recently ive been obsessing over The Fly film with Jeff Goldblum. The whole nature of being fused together with another creature.
In college we had a lecture on Abjection and the writings of Julia Kristeva. She basically states that in many horror films the things that scare us are actually connected to being in the womb, or being born.
How what we fear the most is osing our identity and being part of another being agian. Nameless, without a voice, and in a kind of abyss. Not a individual independent person. Which is what we strive to be wen grow up into adulthood.

The abyss is similar to dying, return to a great void. Unable to communicate. Maybe the coffin or grave. Like the womb. (in a way).
But also if u return to God, from which u came, it also could be seen as being fused together with another being, and losing the freedom which u had wen u were alive.
Just a thought. I guess its all how u see things.

K-DOGG
11-07-2006, 03:38 PM
Most of my posts are basically aimed at giving somone the horn.
But i dont want to turn this thread into a slippery gay chindig.
Theres a time and a place for those fruity moments, and it aint here.

Recently ive been obsessing over The Fly film with Jeff Goldblum. The whole nature of being fused together with another creature.
In college we had a lecture on Abjection and the writings of Julia Kristeva. She basically states that in many horror films the things that scare us are actually connected to being in the womb, or being born.
How what we fear the most is osing our identity and being part of another being agian. Nameless, without a voice, and in a kind of abyss. Not a individual independent person. Which is what we strive to be wen grow up into adulthood.

The abyss is similar to dying, return to a great void. Unable to communicate. Maybe the coffin or grave. Like the womb. (in a way).
But also if u return to God, from which u came, it also could be seen as being fused together with another being, and losing the freedom which u had wen u were alive.
Just a thought. I guess its all how u see things.


Great post.

It never ceases to amaze me how complex we are as creatures. We desire our own independence, our free will; and yet, we are social by nature, we don't want to be alone.

We fear the very thing we crave: to be a part of a whole. We want to be a part of something; but distinguisably independent at the same time. We are, by nature, both, though it sounds like a paradox. We are interdependent individuals in a tossed salad of humanity.

phallus
11-08-2006, 11:43 PM
Most of my posts are basically aimed at giving somone the horn.
But i dont want to turn this thread into a slippery gay chindig.
Theres a time and a place for those fruity moments, and it aint here.

Recently ive been obsessing over The Fly film with Jeff Goldblum. The whole nature of being fused together with another creature.
In college we had a lecture on Abjection and the writings of Julia Kristeva. She basically states that in many horror films the things that scare us are actually connected to being in the womb, or being born.
How what we fear the most is osing our identity and being part of another being agian. Nameless, without a voice, and in a kind of abyss. Not a individual independent person. Which is what we strive to be wen grow up into adulthood.

The abyss is similar to dying, return to a great void. Unable to communicate. Maybe the coffin or grave. Like the womb. (in a way).
But also if u return to God, from which u came, it also could be seen as being fused together with another being, and losing the freedom which u had wen u were alive.
Just a thought. I guess its all how u see things.


kafka's metamorphosis is also about this



Great post.

It never ceases to amaze me how complex we are as creatures. We desire our own independence, our free will; and yet, we are social by nature, we don't want to be alone.

We fear the very thing we crave: to be a part of a whole. We want to be a part of something; but distinguisably independent at the same time. We are, by nature, both, though it sounds like a paradox. We are interdependent individuals in a tossed salad of humanity.

yes, u are right b0Bby, this is becoming a gay thread

K-DOGG
11-09-2006, 12:29 PM
kafka's metamorphosis is also about this





yes, u are right b0Bby, this is becoming a gay thread

:lol1: :haha: Oh ****!!! Freudian Slip!! :lol1:


Oops! :D

The Noose
11-09-2006, 07:00 PM
I also noticed the tossed salad comment. And ive never had the whole 'tossed sald' phrase defined for me clearly.

I still have to read Metamorphosis. Not that he explains wat tossing slad is all about.

K-DOGG
11-09-2006, 07:08 PM
I also noticed the tossed salad comment. And ive never had the whole 'tossed sald' phrase defined for me clearly.

I still have to read Metamorphosis. Not that he explains wat tossing slad is all about.


Well, here's the way I meant it; and it was focused more towards Americans; but can be expanded to include all of us:

This is a post from another thread a while back

One of the great eye opening statements I***8217;ve heard over the last few years came from the publisher of a local Latino publication. People, we, constantly refer to the United States as the ***8220;Great Melting Pot***8221;; and Yuri, the publisher of ***8220;La Noticia***8221;, called me on that during an interview***8230;.and one-upped the sentiment. He suggested rather than looking at the U.S. as a great ***8220;melting pot***8221; to look upon it as a great ***8220;tossed salad***8221;***8230;.and here***8217;s why:

In the ***8220;Melting Pot***8221;, all types of different ingredients are thrown in together to blend into one uniform taste, one uniform entity, losing all of their original flavors.

In a ***8220;Tossed Salad***8221;, one can savor the flavor of each individual component while, at the same time, celebrating the combined effects of those individual tastes.

How much better would it be if TO BE AN AMERICAN meant all of our rich and various cultural heritages were acknowledged and celebrated and respected, while combining to show the rest of the world that ***8220;This is what happens when we all truly come together***8230;..look what WE can do!***8221;

Every culture has meaning; our individual histories are our individual roots. Without roots, no plant can survive. So we, if we forget where we came from, are surely destined to eventually drift aimlessly through life without any real purpose for we have no sense of self; and without sense of self, there is no real pride of self or sense of identity.

Is that not what we see now, by and large? Is not the overall goal of the ***8220;American Dream***8221; to make as much money as possible, while not necessarily working towards a better goal for All of Us? Isn***8217;t it about financial wealth rather than spiritual wealth or a collective purpose for all of the components that make up OUR society?

Is it not more Individual based in some vain attempt to compensate for a lost sense one***8217;s own importance? Or, am I off my rocker? Does it not lend itself more to the temptation of greed and envy and coveting; the same traits of the conquerors ignored in our history books? Just because something is not spelled out does not mean it is not there. Greed was the engine that drove the conquistadors just as greed is the engine that drives the American work force on the wealthiest levels, while survival drives the lower tax bracket. What are we sacrificing as we ***8220;melt***8221;?

There is nothing wrong with acquiring wealth; that***8217;s not my point. There will always be the haves and the have-nots, for this is a constant throughout history. The point is: are we truly a WE or a collection of I***8217;s?

Now, of course, on a broader scale, that can refer to the world, as we are an amalgom of vastly different cultures; but inside, we all really want the same things from life.


The other use of the expression, "tossed salad", has to do with eating someone's ass out, usually with syrup......quite a contrast from what I meant; but funny, none the less.

Ta Khent
11-09-2006, 07:48 PM
Well, here's the way I meant it; and it was focused more towards Americans; but can be expanded to include all of us:

This is a post from another thread a while back

One of the great eye opening statements I***8217;ve heard over the last few years came from the publisher of a local Latino publication. People, we, constantly refer to the United States as the ***8220;Great Melting Pot***8221;; and Yuri, the publisher of ***8220;La Noticia***8221;, called me on that during an interview***8230;.and one-upped the sentiment. He suggested rather than looking at the U.S. as a great ***8220;melting pot***8221; to look upon it as a great ***8220;tossed salad***8221;***8230;.and here***8217;s why:

In the ***8220;Melting Pot***8221;, all types of different ingredients are thrown in together to blend into one uniform taste, one uniform entity, losing all of their original flavors.

In a ***8220;Tossed Salad***8221;, one can savor the flavor of each individual component while, at the same time, celebrating the combined effects of those individual tastes.

How much better would it be if TO BE AN AMERICAN meant all of our rich and various cultural heritages were acknowledged and celebrated and respected, while combining to show the rest of the world that ***8220;This is what happens when we all truly come together***8230;..look what WE can do!***8221;

Every culture has meaning; our individual histories are our individual roots. Without roots, no plant can survive. So we, if we forget where we came from, are surely destined to eventually drift aimlessly through life without any real purpose for we have no sense of self; and without sense of self, there is no real pride of self or sense of identity.

Is that not what we see now, by and large? Is not the overall goal of the ***8220;American Dream***8221; to make as much money as possible, while not necessarily working towards a better goal for All of Us? Isn***8217;t it about financial wealth rather than spiritual wealth or a collective purpose for all of the components that make up OUR society?

Is it not more Individual based in some vain attempt to compensate for a lost sense one***8217;s own importance? Or, am I off my rocker? Does it not lend itself more to the temptation of greed and envy and coveting; the same traits of the conquerors ignored in our history books? Just because something is not spelled out does not mean it is not there. Greed was the engine that drove the conquistadors just as greed is the engine that drives the American work force on the wealthiest levels, while survival drives the lower tax bracket. What are we sacrificing as we ***8220;melt***8221;?

There is nothing wrong with acquiring wealth; that***8217;s not my point. There will always be the haves and the have-nots, for this is a constant throughout history. The point is: are we truly a WE or a collection of I***8217;s?

Now, of course, on a broader scale, that can refer to the world, as we are an amalgom of vastly different cultures; but inside, we all really want the same things from life.


The other use of the expression, "tossed salad", has to do with eating someone's ass out, usually with syrup......quite a contrast from what I meant; but funny, none the less.


Do you ever run out things to say? You're a modern day Wordsworth! You should consider a career in politics. :D

K-DOGG
11-10-2006, 02:03 PM
Do you ever run out things to say? You're a modern day Wordsworth! You should consider a career in politics. :D

LOL!!! Thank you; but I fear I'm too honest to be successful in that field. :D

MANGLER
12-28-2009, 03:14 AM
Thinkin is the ****. If it's about stressful ****, ******s need to chill.

But to just take some time to ponder relevant **** is always fun for me. At work or even at home I find myself just wanderin mentally. It's a good way to clear your head, which helps your performance no matter what you're doin. Stop and just think about ****.

Actin on the fly is often necessary but not always beneficial. I prefer to have everything I do always planned out in advance. And when I got dead time wit nothin to do I'm always thinkin, even at times like now when I'm drunk as ****. If you blessed wit a sound mind you gotta use that ****.