Walking around with all this baggage in yourself is just not good.

Coming up on "The Top 5 Reasons You Can't Blame"...

Frazier should have bried the hatchet years ago, instead of keeping the grudge like he actually wanted to keep it.














That ball was on the line!



It gets by Buckner!



Michigan can't take a timeout!



Tunney is down!



No good, wide right!



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The Top 5 Reasons You Can't Blame Joe Frazier for Hating Muhammad Ali

Hello, I'm butterfly1964, and Welcome to The Top Five Reasons You Can't Blame. A show that takes a look at boxing personalities and establishments who have made questionable decisions, controversial comments, or unpopular stances, and take a deeper look into these matters. My job is not to further villify these individuals, but to challenge conventional wisdom, and reexamine what has been accepted as fact. In this episode I'm counting down the top 5 reasons why you can't blame Joe Frazier for hating Muhammad Ali, even to this day. Their rivalry the spanned 3 fights, 41 rounds, and four years, had captivated the public's imagination and trancended boxing. But the rage that fueld Frazier's tank to give his all in the trilogy is still burning, to the point that no one can explain. Before I count down the reasons why you can't blame Joe Frazier, Here's a look at the start of their feud.



























After Ali was banned from boxing, Joe Frazier came on the scene and tore throught the division with a vengence. A fight with Ali once he came back was prevalent.

Both men gave their best in all three fights. Frazier though it was a personal duty to beat Ali.

After the Thrilla in Manila, Ali called frazier's son marvis and told him that all those things he said about his father, he didn't mean them. Well, when Marvis told his father, Joe ignored it.

Even the people that worked for Joe after he retired, couldnt evn mention Ali's name for fear of being fired!

Frazier took everything Ali said seriously, even though Ali didn't think it was a big deal. He really despidsed Ali in a way that makes you question Frazier's integrity.

In 1996, when Ali carried the Olympic torch, and lit the fire to start the games, Joe Frazier watched it, and replied that he wished Ali had fallen in.

Why would he say that in 1996, more than 20 years after their last fight? Frazier should have bried the hatchet years ago, instead of keeping the grudge like he actually wanted to keep it.

Ali issued apology after apology to Frazier, which Joe Rejected them all.

The tension between the two probably climaxed in January of 1974 at ABC's Wide World of Sports shortly before their rematch, when their infamous brawl occured.

What, you in this too?

Get down Joe!

Your in this too?

Quick! Get down Joe!
Pushes Frazier down

What a scene we hane here! Frazier is apparently angry! Muhammad called him ignorant and he's really angry!

Walking around with all this baggage in yourself is just not good.


























Before I count down the top 5 reasons why you can't blame Joe Frazier for hating Muhammad Ali, here's a reason that didn't make the top five. I call it, "The Best of the Rest".














Best of the Rest

Frazier is Underrated - The things that Joe Frazier accomplished in the boxing ring give almost instant top ten heavyweight status. However, he is overlooked by many boxing and sports fans in general, partly due to his losses to Ali and George Foreman. Ali gets more prase as a fighter than Frazier does, this may be part of the animosity that Frazier feels towards Ali.

























Coming up next on The Top Five Reasons You Can't Blame, we'll discuss Joe Frazier's roots.

http://archives.imaginginfo.com/article/photos/1131483551555_ali_frazier_12.jpg
Welcome back to "The Top 5 Reasons You Can't Blame Joe Frazier for hating Muhammad Ali".

Now we are ready for the countdown, starting with Reason #5.

















5: Upbringing - Frazier was born in rural South Carolina, where his father was a sharecropper. Frazier grew up poor and that made him tough. Because of this, he wouldn't take any smack from anybody, and Ali was no different.

Frazier never really had the ability to brush soething off from nothing, because his father instilled him an attitude of hard-work, and seriousness.





Reason #5 might have had something to do with Reason #4. Here it is.




















4: Philadelphia - Frazier at the age of 15 moved to New York and then to the "City of Brotherly Love". He learned boxing in probably the toughest city in America.

In those Philadelphia gyms they have wars! In sparring sessions, that just go all out and fight to the end. You have teenagers coming out with broken noses and cauliflower ears, and Frazier was part of that, and he was just a tough individual, and very serious about everything, and those gyms taught him toughness.

Frazier just wasn't accumtomed to hearing the things that Ali said, and he took it too seriously.

















Stay tuned for more of our countdown of the top 5 reasons you can't blame Joe Frazier for hating Muhammad Ali.

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You're watching The Top 5 Reasons You Can't Blame Joe Frazier for hating Muhammad Ali

Let's continue the countdown. Reason #3.



















3: The Vietnam War - Frazier and Ali's bitter rivalry started because many people in society branded them in to two different categories. Ali represented the younger generatin, the rebels, the one's opposed to the conflict in Vietnam, while Frazier represented the hard hats, the war veterans, the old guard that was patriotic to their country no matter what the reason was. Frazier and Ali got aught into the crossfire of the political times, and that's how the rivalry fueled.

Ali got most of the young people on his side, and Frazier was misunderstood and ridiculed by those people, and that had an effect on the way Frazier thought of Ali, because he felt that Ali was responsible for it.

You can't really blame Frazier because if it wasn't for the Vietnam War, the rivalry wouldn't be as bitter as it was.

























How did that grab you? If you are still unsure, then try this one on for size, Reason #2.
























2: Muhammad Ali - Ali brought all the hate on himself by being mean to Frazier.

Before the banishment, Ali was at his peak, not just physically, but financially, and in popularity. During his exile, Frazier would help him out financially. Ali needed the money, but he still had a sort of dislike for Frazier, cause he was being frazier's charity case all of a sudden. And so Ali turned on him.

In the first two fights, Ali branded frazier as the white man's champion, and in the third fight, he was the gorilla, and Ali named a lot of his fighters, but he took it too far with Frazier.

Frazier's kids were tormented at school, because the school kids would call their father ugly, all becaus of Ali's tactics.

To refer to Frazier as an Uncle Tom... sucking kind of guy is the worst insult you could give a guy that was nothing but raging black!

I don't blame Frazier because Ali brought all the hate on himself.










Coming up, our Number 1 reason why you can't blame Joe Frazier for hating Muhammad Ali. Here's a hint.

All I know is that the world was treated to 41 of the best rounds in the history of boxing!

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We're counting down The Top 5 Reasons You Can't Blame Joe Frazier for Hating Muhammad Ali. Before we get to the top reason, here's a recap.






Number 5: Upbringing



Number 4: Philadelphia



Number 3: The Vietnam War



and...



Number 2: Muhammad Ali



















We all ask ourselves why certain things happen. It may alter our lives for the worse and may "cramp" our style. It may even make us uneasy about certain things. But sometimes, just sometimes the bad things that occur turn out to be a blessing in disguise. Reason #1.
















1: That's What Made Their Rivalry So Great - Although Joe Frazier is recognized as a great fighter, he stood only 5'-11", had a short reach, and at times has shown himself to have a vulnerable chin. The bottom line is that Ali brought out the best in Frazier, and let's face it, vise versa.

If Ali hadn't tormented Frazier like he did, I'm not sure if Frazier would have beaten Ali at all. Ali by doing that actually pushed Frazier to the point that Frazier was dead set on shutting him up.

For that time, the hate was a good thing, because it made both fighters work hard to gain a victory, and their fights turned out to be classic fights in part because of the bitterness between the two. I mean in every great rivalry, their is bitternes. If you don't have bitterness, you don't have a rivalry!

In their third fight, Frazier was written off as washed up and Ali was a clear favorite. But because of Ali's pre-fight mind games, Frazier got himself in the best shape he's been in for years, and gave Ali by far his toughest fight. This made Ali work hard to get the victory, and we all were treated to great boxing by both Ali and Frazier.

I understand about how Frazier hates Ali to this day, and Ali wasn't nice and all that, but hey, all I know is that the world was treated to 41 of the best rounds in the history of boxing!

This will go down in Sports folklore as the best rivalry in boxing history, probably the best rivalry in sports history!





















That will do it for this edition of "The Top 5 Reasons You Can't Blame". Maybe I've changed your mind. Maybe not. But hopefully, you'll look at this issue in a different light. I'm butterfly1964, thanks for watching.














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In 2002, Frazier and Ali met in public at the annual NBA All-Star Game and publicly made up and buried the hatchet, ending the almost 35 year rivalry between the two, supposedly.


















Butterfly Productions Inc.
© 2006

Well, guys, how did I do?:boxing:

Good, but a few things were left behind. Ali really stabbed Frazier in the back, if you know what i mean.

Good, but a few things were left behind. Ali really stabbed Frazier in the back, if you know what i mean.

That was reason #2.

You're right.

Ali, one of the biggest pieces of **** ever in pro boxing.

selfish primadonna mediawhore.

Ali, one of the biggest pieces of **** ever in pro boxing.

selfish primadonna mediawhore.

Shut the **** up. He rejuvenated the sport when it was at a deep low because of the mob and made people interested in it again.

He was a showman and played to his strengths. Isn't he allowed to do that?

Shut the **** up. He rejuvenated the sport when it was at a deep low because of the mob and made people interested in it again.

He was a showman and played to his strengths. Isn't he allowed to do that?


Rejuvenated the sport from what? Floyd Patterson was a more popular champion than Ali.

Or are you saying something against Liston?

Or are you saying something against Liston?

Against Liston. Liston was the champion, who was alledgedly run through the mob. No-one could get close to him and the feared him like crazy. If it wasn't for Ali, boxing woul of gotten in a real bad state.

Ali, one of the biggest pieces of **** ever in pro boxing.

selfish primadonna mediawhore.

And you are one of the biggest pieces of **** ever on this forum.

Against Liston. Liston was the champion, who was alledgedly run through the mob. No-one could get close to him and the feared him like crazy. If it wasn't for Ali, boxing woul of gotten in a real bad state.


Ali was the corrupt one with the powers that be on his side. Liston was forced to take a dive against Ali or they said they'd to kill his family. The jews wanted a little ***got mediawhore like ali to be champions in the 60's and 70's to spout their racist communist propaganda for them.

Ali was the corrupt one with the powers that be on his side. Liston was forced to take a dive against Ali or they said they'd to kill his family. The jews wanted a little ***got mediawhore like ali to be champions in the 60's and 70's to spout their racist communist propaganda for them.

The jews? Well Ali was a member of the nation of islam who have an extreme disliking for the jews.

And Liston wasn't forced to take a dive. Read his book. He just didn't want to take a beating because he knew he wasn't up to it.

The jews? Well Ali was a member of the nation of islam who have an extreme disliking for the jews.

And Liston wasn't forced to take a dive. Read his book. He just didn't want to take a beating because he knew he wasn't up to it.


Your a jew.

What surprise your here proliferating lies and Ali's nonsense.

Your a jew.

What surprise your here proliferating lies and Ali's nonsense.

Ok wanker. Don't start giving me **** behind your computer monitor.

You have to start flaming me because you know you are wrong. :ugh:

Ok wanker. Don't start giving me **** behind your computer monitor.

You have to start flaming me because you know you are wrong. :ugh:


I'm not flaming you. I am just exposing your motives and character. If they were good that ought be something to be happy about and not something that could possibly be constrewed as flaming.

Oh well, atleast he has Tyson on his signature lol.

I'm not flaming you. I am just exposing your motives and character. If they were good that ought be something to be happy about and not something that could possibly be constrewed as flaming.

Ok, but in the society I live in, it is used as a derogatory remark.

I have nothing against jews.

Ok, but in the society I live in, it is used as a derogatory remark.

I have nothing against jews.


shutup. Nobody is interested in the bull**** declarations you make. Your motives and character have been exposed.

shutup. Nobody is interested in the bull**** declaration you make. You have been exposed.

You shut up. You don't know **** about boxing and shouldn't post on this website.

You shut up. You don't know **** about boxing and shouldn't post on this website.


Another one of your billiant and pure in motive declarations.

You shut up. You don't know **** about boxing and shouldn't post on this website.

Just read his other remarks. He'll be banned soon, so we should let this crybaby dig his own grave.

Just read his other remarks. He'll be banned soon, so we should let this crybaby dig his own grave.

Hopefully. He's just a clown.

Hopefully. He's just a clown.


Spooky...........

Spooky...........

Ye your scared cos your probably about 10

Ye your scared cos your probably about 10

Astute obversaton. I'm 10 years old.

It scares bastards like you when you encounter people that have something more than the self awareness level of a horshoe crab.

Astute obversaton. I'm 10 years old.

You certainly act like it.

Ok I'll try to be more mature.

It scares bastards like you when you encounter people that have something more than the self awareness level of a horshoe crab.

You had to resort to name calling because you knew you were wrong. Small minded cunt.

Ali was the greatest fighter of all time and rejuvenated boxing even though that the champions before him were of much higher popularity compared to him in the 60's. Champions such as Floyd Patterson, Sonny Liston, Rocky Marciano, Joe Louis, Jack Dempsey. All those guys are **** compared to Ali because they have no personality. To be considered as having personality you have to say the same kind of stuff as Ali, be promoted by Don King, and win fights by way of other Champions lying down with under the threat of having their family killed.

Yes, Muhammad Ali, Greatest All time, symbol of humanity.

You know Ali has to be the greatest because Bert Sugar said so. And Jack Johnson is the 3rd greatest professional fighter of all time because Bert Sugar said so.

Ali was the greatest fighter of all time and rejuvenated boxing even though that the champions before him were of much higher popularity compared to him in the 60's. Champions such as Floyd Patterson, Sonny Liston, Rocky Marciano, Joe Louis, Jack Dempsey. All those guys are **** compared to Ali because they have no personality. To be considered as having personality you have to say the same kind of stuff as Ali, be promoted by Don King, and win fights by way of other Champions lying down with under the threat of having their family killed.

I didn't say any of that. You said Ali was the biggest **** in boxing, ever. And no he isn't. He did rejuventae boxing. ****ing read a book about boxing in the 60's and it will tell you how low the sport got. It was Ali's media presence that grabbed people's attention and made them interested in boxing again.

You know Ali has to be the greatest because Bert Sugar said so. And Jack Johnson is the 3rd greatest professional fighter of all time because Bert Sugar said so.

Ali isn't the greatest fighter ever in my opinion. Sugar Ray Robinson is.

I didn't say any of that. You said Ali was the biggest **** in boxing, ever. And no he isn't. He did rejuventae boxing. ****ing read a book about boxing in the 60's and it will tell you how low the sport got. It was Ali's media presence that grabbed people's attention and made them interested in boxing again.


That's a good idea I should read a book written by an "expert." If something is in a book written by an "expert" it must be true.

That's a good idea I should read a book written by an "expert." If something is in a book written by an "expert" it must be true.

Not necessarily. Just research the facts then. No need to read opinions. You'll still find I am right.

Not necessarily. Just research the facts then. No need to read opinions. You'll still find I am right.


If something is said to be a fact it has to be a fact because the book said it was a "fact." The "Facts," all that matter.

If something is said to be a fact it has to be a fact because the book said it was a "fact." The "Facts," all that matter.

No, look at statistics on how many people went to the fights compared to earlier and later years. etc.

No, look at statistics on how many people went to the fights compared to earlier and later years. etc.

Ali didn't sell more tickets than Jack Dempsey or alot of other fighters. Boxers in the 50's used to pack baseball stadium and places like Chicago Stadium, Ali never did that, and if he came close it was near the end of his career when he was indeed popular.

whats funny is that foreman is good friends with both of them!

Good job butterfly! You really can't blame Frazier.

By the way didn't Frazier present some kind of lifetime achievement award to Ali on a television show about ten years ago and a shaking Ali turned and put his fists up before they embraced? That was definitely before 2004.

You know Ali has to be the greatest because Bert Sugar said so. And Jack Johnson is the 3rd greatest professional fighter of all time because Bert Sugar said so.

This shows how much you know about boxing. Bert Sugar never said that Muhammad Ali was the greatest fighter, or that Jack Johnson was the third greatest. He always said Sugar Ray Robinson was number one, and that Willie Pep was number three. He has Ali at number seven, and Johnson at number 10.

Owned!:owned:

Anyway, this is good, discussion. This is what I wanted when I started doing these things. This shows that people are interested. This is great!:boxing:

joe frazier moved to philly from south carolina

joe frazier moved to philly from south carolina

No, he moved to New York for a while to live with his brother, then moved to Philadelphia.

So... The Fan Man has

1) conspiracy theories about jews

2) Golota in his signature

Is he the racist pole guy who used to get banned day in day out?

fanman is obviously a ali hater, and hes 10 years old, psh, bs...mayb its tommyhearns from b4 lol, that guy was a riot
ps. good thread butterfly

This shows how much you know about boxing. Bert Sugar never said that Muhammad Ali was the greatest fighter, or that Jack Johnson was the third greatest. He always said Sugar Ray Robinson was number one, and that Willie Pep was number three. He has Ali at number seven, and Johnson at number 10.

Owned!:owned:

He rates Ali as the best heavyweight and Johnson as 3rd or 4th on Ringside.

He rates Ali as the best heavyweight and Johnson as 3rd or 4th on Ringside.

He rated Ali as the second best heavyweight under Joe Louis. Again I'm showing you that you know nothing.:owned:

He rated Ali as the second best heavyweight under Joe Louis. Again I'm showing you that you know nothing.:owned:

how high does he rank the following fighters?
lennox
holyfield
bowe
tyson
holmes

Also, who does he think is better, roy jones jr or mike spinks.

how high does he rank the following fighters?
lennox
holyfield
bowe
tyson
holmes

Also, who does he think is better, roy jones jr or mike spinks.

On the Heavyweights, he rates Holmes at #10, all the others are outside the top 10.

I asked him about his rating from 1991 to today, when he rated Dempsey #1. He said, he listens to people.

Here's his rating from 1991 and then today:

Bert Sugar, 1991

1.Jack Dempsey
2.Joe Louis
3.Muhammad Ali
4.Jack Johnson
5.Gene Tunney
6.Rocky Marciano
7.Joe Frazier
8.Larry Holmes
9.Sonny Liston
10.Mike Tyson

Here's Bert Sugar's list Today:

BERT SUGAR'S TOP 10 FIGHTERS

1. Sugar Ray Robinson, welterweight-middleweight, 1940-65
2. Henry Armstrong, featherweight-lightweight-welterweight, 1940-59
3. Willie Pep, featherweight, 1940-59
4. Joe Louis, heavyweight, 1934-51
5. Harry Greb, middleweight, light heavyweight, 1913-26
6. Benny Leonard, lightweight, 1911-32
7. Muhammad Ali, heavyweight, 1960-81
8. Roberto Duran, lightweight, welterweight, junior middleweight, 1967-2001
9. Jack Dempsey, heavyweight, 1914-27
10. Jack Johnson, heavyweight, 1897-1928
Source: "Boxing's Greatest Fighters," 2006


Sugar's top 10 heavyweights

1. Joe Louis
2. Muhammad Ali
3. Jack Dempsey
4. Jack Johnson
5. Gene Tunney
6. Rocky Marciano
7. Ezzard Charles
8. George Foreman
9. Joe Frazier
10. Larry Holmes

Source: "Ringside: The Ten Greatest Heavyweights," ESPN Classic

Also, who does he think is better, roy jones jr or mike spinks.

He ranked Jones at #88 in his latest edition of his top 100 fighters of all-time, and unless I'm simply missing Spinks' name (I've gone over it twice though), I don't see him anywhere to be found...

So, Sugar ranks Jones higher as of his latest ranking.

He ranked Jones at #88 in his latest edition of his top 100 fighters of all-time, and unless I'm simply missing Spinks' name (I've gone over it twice though), I don't see him anywhere to be found...

So, Sugar ranks Jones higher as of his latest ranking.

Ok bert definetly has an old school bias for sure. His rankings are clearly biased towards certain eras. Spinks was the undisputed light heavyweight champ when the division was stacked, he became linear heavyweight champ and yet he's not in his top 100, lol. RING magazine has spinks in the top 50.

He decides to rank old guys that wouldn't last in todays era. Should i remind u that ezzard's record at heavyweight is horrible.

Here's Bert Sugar's list Today:

1. Louis
2. Ali
3. Johnson
4. Dempsey
5. Tunney
6. Marciano
7. Charles
8. Foreman
9. Frazier
10. Holmes

Johnson is number 4, and Dempsey is number three.

Ali, one of the biggest pieces of **** ever in pro boxing.

selfish primadonna mediawhore.

no!! but your a prick and a racist who dont know **** !!!!

Johnson is number 4, and Dempsey is number three.

Yes, I made the change, I was trying to do it from memory:

Here's his all-time pound for pound list followed by his all-time Heavyweights:

BERT SUGAR'S TOP 10 FIGHTERS<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
1. Sugar Ray Robinson, welterweight-middleweight, 1940-65
2. Henry Armstrong, featherweight-lightweight-welterweight, 1940-59
3. Willie Pep, featherweight, 1940-59
4. Joe Louis, heavyweight, 1934-51
5. Harry Greb, middleweight, light heavyweight, 1913-26
6. Benny Leonard, lightweight, 1911-32
7. Muhammad Ali, heavyweight, 1960-81
8. Roberto Duran, lightweight, welterweight, junior middleweight, 1967-2001
9. Jack Dempsey, heavyweight, 1914-27
10. Jack Johnson, heavyweight, 1897-1928
Source: "Boxing's Greatest Fighters," 2006


Sugar's top 10 heavyweights

1. Joe Louis
2. Muhammad Ali
3. Jack Dempsey
4. Jack Johnson
5. Gene Tunney
6. Rocky Marciano
7. Ezzard Charles
8. George Foreman
9. Joe Frazier
10. Larry Holmes

Source: "Ringside: The Ten Greatest Heavyweights," ESPN Classic

Yes, I made the change, I was trying to do it from memory:

Here's his all-time pound for pound list followed by his all-time Heavyweights:

BERT SUGAR'S TOP 10 FIGHTERS<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
1. Sugar Ray Robinson, welterweight-middleweight, 1940-65
2. Henry Armstrong, featherweight-lightweight-welterweight, 1940-59
3. Willie Pep, featherweight, 1940-59
4. Joe Louis, heavyweight, 1934-51
5. Harry Greb, middleweight, light heavyweight, 1913-26
6. Benny Leonard, lightweight, 1911-32
7. Muhammad Ali, heavyweight, 1960-81
8. Roberto Duran, lightweight, welterweight, junior middleweight, 1967-2001
9. Jack Dempsey, heavyweight, 1914-27
10. Jack Johnson, heavyweight, 1897-1928
Source: "Boxing's Greatest Fighters," 2006

Sugar's top 10 heavyweights

1. Joe Louis
2. Muhammad Ali
3. Jack Dempsey
4. Jack Johnson
5. Gene Tunney
6. Rocky Marciano
7. Ezzard Charles
8. George Foreman
9. Joe Frazier
10. Larry Holmes

Source: "Ringside: The Ten Greatest Heavyweights," ESPN Classic

Nice to see Ezzard Charles on a top 10 heavyweight list.

Nice to see Ezzard Charles on a top 10 heavyweight list.

his 175 record is much better than his heavyweight record, he shouldnt be top 10 on a heavyweight list. Top 25 pound for pound for sure.