did anyone actually score the fight for Frazier, cause I watched the fight like three times and everytime I watched it, I couldn't help but always having the fight scored 8 rounds to 7 for Ali, anyone else here think that Ali won the fight?

did anyone actually score the fight for Frazier, cause I watched the fight like three times and everytime I watched it, I couldn't help but always having the fight scored 8 rounds to 7 for Ali, anyone else here think that Ali won the fight?

I scored it 7-6-2 for Frazier.

Because it's such a thrill to watch I'll try to squeeze it in again today sometime and I'll post a score. But I will forewarn you that I think Frazier won the fight clearly. I never counted how many rounds Ali took but they were not that many in my opinion.
Really though is there any history of controversy over the scoring of this fight?

No controversy here. Frazier took too many of the middle rounds and pressured Ali until late into the fight.

I'll post a score when I get the chance.

Hi. This is my first post. I'm boxing fan too. One of the reasons that I want to post in this topic first is because I never understood why there's not more talk about this to me controversial decision. I don't see controversy of giving victory to Frazier because he did have those two big rounds, 11 and 15, he did pressure Ali almost the whole fight, but if you try to score the fight round by round, Ali actually won more rounds. I don't know if any of you know the fact that both judges and the referee gave rounds 3 and 4 to Frazier. None of them gave those rounds to Ali. In third round Ali is just beating Frazier and hitting him with all punches in the book and then Frazier scored a hook 10 seconds to go and then hit Ali with few body shots as Ali covered. That's just not enough to even the round, but actually he was given that round. In fourth round Ali is doing the same all over. Frazier hit Ali with hook 40 seconds to go and maybe with two more hooks, but Ali ended that round well with combinations of one-two of his own. Little closer round than third but definitely Ali's. Both of those rounds are Ali's because he controlled very large part of them and he was never really hurt by Frazier's hooks, not yet that early in the fight. This is how I scored the fight. It's 8-6-1 for Ali.
1. Ali
2. Ali
3. Ali
4. Ali
5. Ali
6. Frazier
7. Frazier
8. Frazier
9. Ali
10. Ali
11. Frazier
12. Frazier
13. EVEN
14. Ali
15. Frazier

Ali won first five rounds, and I don't know how Frazier survived that beating. Frazier started to smoke in fourth round but really his first round was sixth, and then seventh, but that round was close fought, and in eight Ali was doing nothing. Ali came back in ninth when he hurt Frazier and won tenth also, that was the round when referee accidently hit Frazier in the eye. Frazier almost knocked down Ali in eleventh and that carried him in 12th, but he started to tire in that round. Ali won first half of 13th round and then the best action of the fight on the ropes as they both fire bombs at eachother. Frazier got better of it, but Ali won first half which makes it even round. Fourtheenth was Ali's for sure and it looked like Frazier was really tired and he was missing a lot with his hooks, also tried to rest his head on Ali's chest which he was doing during the fight but you here comentator only metioning Ali's holding, but Frazier's head pushing forced Ali to hold. And then in 15th round it looked like Ali was going to whoop Frazier all over again when Frazier suddenly scored a knock down which really saved him. He beat Ali pretty bad for the rest of that round but in the end they were both very tired.
As I said it's not controversy that Frazier won, he had Ali down in 15th, badly hurth in 11th, but if you score the fight round by round Ali won more rounds, especially those two, third and fourth. With those two rounds given to Ali the score would be 8-6-1, 8-7, 6-9, split desicion Ali.

Hi. This is my first post. I'm boxing fan too. One of the reasons that I want to post in this topic first is because I never understood why there's not more talk about this to me controversial decision. I don't see controversy of giving victory to Frazier because he did have those two big rounds, 11 and 15, he did pressure Ali almost the whole fight, but if you try to score the fight round by round, Ali actually won more rounds. I don't know if any of you know the fact that both judges and the referee gave rounds 3 and 4 to Frazier. None of them gave those rounds to Ali. In third round Ali is just beating Frazier and hitting him with all punches in the book and then Frazier scored a hook 10 seconds to go and then hit Ali with few body shots as Ali covered. That's just not enough to even the round, but actually he was given that round. In fourth round Ali is doing the same all over. Frazier hit Ali with hook 40 seconds to go and maybe with two more hooks, but Ali ended that round well with combinations of one-two of his own. Little closer round than third but definitely Ali's. Both of those rounds are Ali's because he controlled very large part of them and he was never really hurt by Frazier's hooks, not yet that early in the fight. This is how I scored the fight. It's 8-6-1 for Ali.
1. Ali
2. Ali
3. Ali
4. Ali
5. Ali
6. Frazier
7. Frazier
8. Frazier
9. Ali
10. Ali
11. Frazier
12. Frazier
13. EVEN
14. Ali
15. Frazier

Ali won first five rounds, and I don't know how Frazier survived that beating. Frazier started to smoke in fourth round but really his first round was sixth, and then seventh, but that round was close fought, and in eight Ali was doing nothing. Ali came back in ninth when he hurt Frazier and won tenth also, that was the round when referee accidently hit Frazier in the eye. Frazier almost knocked down Ali in eleventh and that carried him in 12th, but he started to tire in that round. Ali won first half of 13th round and then the best action of the fight on the ropes as they both fire bombs at eachother. Frazier got better of it, but Ali won first half which makes it even round. Fourtheenth was Ali's for sure and it looked like Frazier was really tired and he was missing a lot with his hooks, also tried to rest his head on Ali's chest which he was doing during the fight but you here comentator only metioning Ali's holding, but Frazier's head pushing forced Ali to hold. And then in 15th round it looked like Ali was going to whoop Frazier all over again when Frazier suddenly scored a knock down which really saved him. He beat Ali pretty bad for the rest of that round but in the end they were both very tired.
As I said it's not controversy that Frazier won, he had Ali down in 15th, badly hurth in 11th, but if you score the fight round by round Ali won more rounds, especially those two, third and fourth. With those two rounds given to Ali the score would be 8-6-1, 8-7, 6-9, split desicion Ali.

Ali definetely lost.

1.Ali
2.Ali
3.EVEN
4.Ali
5.Ali
6.Frazier
7.Frazier
8.Frazier
9.Ali
10.EVEN
11.Frazier
12.Frazier
13.Frazier
14.Ali
15.Frazier

I don't think it was enough to even round with just one hook and few body shots in the end of that third round. The third round was the most dominant Ali's round. Frazier couldn't score to the body and Ali hit him with some powerfull upercutts.

I don't think it was enough to even round with just one hook and few body shots in the end of that third round. The third round was the most dominant Ali's round. Frazier couldn't score to the body and Ali hit him with some powerfull upercutts.

Ali's best round was the ninth round, and he still lost. maybe he hit frazier with more punches, but Frazier hit him with the harder punches and hurt Ali more than Ali hurt him, which is what counts.

Wasn't it Frazier who was in and out of hospital for two weeks following this fight. There were rumors of him dying, and he was never the same after this bout. I guess it was because he was hurt more, and his face looked like a mess. Without that 15th, last round whooping, knockdown and beating after that Ali's face wouldn't look bad as it did.

Wasn't it Frazier who was in and out of hospital for two weeks following this fight. There were rumors of him dying, and he was never the same after this bout. I guess it was because he was hurt more, and his face looked like a mess. Without that 15th, last round whooping, knockdown and beating after that Ali's face wouldn't look bad as it did.

Frazier's face was bruised more because Ali landed more punches, but Frazier landed the harder blows to the jaw. That's why it was swollen to mlon size.

Yeah even though in my opinion one of the judges that night scored unfairly against Ali, no matter how you look at it, Fraizer won.

Yeah even though in my opinion one of the judges that night scored unfairly against Ali, no matter how you look at it, Fraizer won.

Yeah, Frazier definetely deserved the victory.

did anyone actually score the fight for Frazier, cause I watched the fight like three times and everytime I watched it, I couldn't help but always having the fight scored 8 rounds to 7 for Ali, anyone else here think that Ali won the fight?

definately. frazier won that fight fair and square.

I always had it for Frazier by a few rounds.

I watched a few Frazier fights recently (Ellis, Bonevena, Quarry1,2, Mathis Ramos) and Frazier was a truely great fighter, it makes u realsie how awsome Foreman was.

btw, i could upload those fights. I just got equiptment to convert all my fights on VHS to my hard drive. I gotta make a very long list of all the fights i have.

Why won't you guys post how you scored this bout, round by round. I allready posted mine.

Why won't you guys post how you scored this bout, round by round. I allready posted mine.

So u want everyone to go and watch the fight and score it??
I scored it the last time i watched it ages ago, but dont remember exactly wat my score was.
Thats probably the same for alot of people here.

I know I scored it 9-6 to Joe. Top of my head, I think I gave first 3 to Ali, 4th to Joe, 5th to Ali, Frazier win 6-8, Ali wins 9, then Frazier wins the rest bar one round (I can’t remember which one though).

1.Ali
2.Ali
3.Ali
4.Ali
5.Ali
6.Frazier
7.Frazier
8.Frazier
9.Ali
10.Fraizer
11.Frazier
12.Frazier
13.Frazier
14.Ali
15.Frazier

8 rounds to 7, with 15 being 10-8 of course

Fraizer- 144
Ali- 141

Rudypoop, you scored the fight almost the same as I did. I scored 10th round for Ali, and 13th round even. In tenth round after referee accidently hit Frazier in the eye Ali gave him a whooping just like he did in 9th, but Frazier came back in the end with a hook or two and some body punches. I gave that round to Ali. The best action of the whole fight was in 13th round. Ali won first half of that round with jabbing and moving, the other half was when they threw bombs at eachother. Frazier hurt Ali more in that exchange, but Ali hurt him too. With Ali winning first half of round, and fighting in other half I scored that round even.

I had it 7-6 and 1 even for Frazier, with the knockdown point in the 15th. I'm not sure how to score on the 5 point scale so I won't try.

I don't know... Joe Frazier is my all-time favorite fighter, and I still score it 8-6-1 for Ali. I've always felt that Ali won on points, though Frazier proved to be a warrior by bringing it to Ali late in the fight; this after he took the punishment he did.

It could have been such that the end of the fight went so well for Frazier, after taking a beating, that the judges felt Frazier would have eventually knocked Ali out. He did have Ali out on his feet in the 11th, but for points, Ali may have won. Joe Frazier showed more heart, and perhaps more stamina than Ali, that's for sure.

I don't know...

** That's right. Even Ali finally admitted he lost the fight.

At least I'm not the only one who thinks that Ali won on points. I don't mind that fight was given to Frazier because of those two big rounds 11 and 15 but if fight was scored like they do now days, who scored more punches and power punches per round to win round Ali would win fight. But if fight was scored with ten points must system then I have it even, because I would score those two rounds 10-8 for Frazier so fight which I scored 8-6-1 for Ali would get score 142-142 with Frazier being champion at that time he could still get close victory. Anyway, fight was much closer than it was scored. I still can't believe that Frazier won both 3rd and 4th rounds on all judges score cards. Watch those rounds again and score it yourself. It means that Frazier had a lead after 4 rounds by all judges and referee but he looked like he was way behind.

I remember thinking Fraizer won clearly.

You thought that Frazier won clearly because usually those last rounds are better remembered than early rounds and Frazier won rounds 11 and 15 big. They were bigger than any rounds Ali won, but round is still just round if fight is scored on round basis. Another thing is that Ali was rarerly hit before this fight. Frazier continuosly hit Ali with his punches and this was enough to win him some rounds. He probably won rounds 3 and 4 just by hitting Ali with some powerfull hooks something nobody did to Ali before, but Ali hit Frazier at will in those two rounds and definitely controlled them but judges were impressed with Frazier's aggressive style and his power punches and gave rounds to him. If fighters were judged fair those rounds were Ali's. Imagine if you put Ali in Frazier's place and Frazier in Ali's. Imagine if Frazier hit Ali at will during whole round but Ali hit Frazier few times with his own power punches you would give round to Frazier, something like that happened in 6th and 8th round, and those were Frazier's rounds.

Frazier actually landed more significant punches in round 3 than Ali did. Plus they were much harder. Frazier showed very good defense in round 3. I agree about round 4 though. That was Ali's best round, even better than the 9th. I don't know what the judges saw.

Rounds 1, 2, 4, 5, 9, 14 to Ali.
Rounds 3, 6-8, 10-14, and 15 to Frazier.

144-139 Frazier.

Boxingfan2, you need to quit whining about the "bad scoring". The 3rd round was Frazier's. As was the 10th.

You thought that Frazier won clearly because usually those last rounds are better remembered than early rounds and Frazier won rounds 11 and 15 big. They were bigger than any rounds Ali won, but round is still just round if fight is scored on round basis. Another thing is that Ali was rarerly hit before this fight. Frazier continuosly hit Ali with his punches and this was enough to win him some rounds. He probably won rounds 3 and 4 just by hitting Ali with some powerfull hooks something nobody did to Ali before, but Ali hit Frazier at will in those two rounds and definitely controlled them but judges were impressed with Frazier's aggressive style and his power punches and gave rounds to him. If fighters were judged fair those rounds were Ali's. Imagine if you put Ali in Frazier's place and Frazier in Ali's. Imagine if Frazier hit Ali at will during whole round but Ali hit Frazier few times with his own power punches you would give round to Frazier, something like that happened in 6th and 8th round, and those were Frazier's rounds.

Fighters are scored on not just the amount of punches landed, but also the quality or power in the punches, and how cleanly they landed. Also points are awarded for aggresion, and defence.

The fact that Ali was being caught very cleanly with huge left hooks throughout the fight and was being pushed back onto the ropes by Fraziers attackes. Plus he had to tie Frazier up alot of the time. All of this adds up to rounds being awarded to Frazier.

I dont believe for a second the judges were in any way unfair or biased, and look at the end of the fight. Ali knew he was beaten. Frazier knew he had won.

It was a close fight, and it is possible to score it for either fighter. But most people had it for Frazier. They scored it after each round fairly.
I had Frazier winning by a clear margin.

Fighters are scored on not just the amount of punches landed, but also the quality or power in the punches, and how cleanly they landed. Also points are awarded for aggresion, and defence.

The fact that Ali was being caught very cleanly with huge left hooks throughout the fight and was being pushed back onto the ropes by Fraziers attackes. Plus he had to tie Frazier up alot of the time. All of this adds up to rounds being awarded to Frazier.

I dont believe for a second the judges were in any way unfair or biased, and look at the end of the fight. Ali knew he was beaten. Frazier knew he had won.

It was a close fight, and it is possible to score it for either fighter. But most people had it for Frazier. They scored it after each round fairly.
I had Frazier winning by a clear margin.

Good post. Frazier showed sensational defense throughout the fight. Tons of Ali punches only grazed him. Just look at the 3rd round, which Boxingfan2 brought up as a "clear Ali round". Ali misses a lot and lands grazing punches. He also ties up Frazier a lot. Frazier pushes the fight, and nearly takes Ali's head off twice with two big hooks. He also lands some good body shots.

There is actually more of a case of the second fight being a robbery. I thought it was a draw. I think these same people who scored the first fight for Ali probably will say Ali took an easy decision the second time. And as far as biased judges, what do they have to say about the Manila judges? 8-4-2, 8-4-2, and 8-3-3 were the scorecards for fight 3.

what was the score for the second fight? i know ali officially won but personally i had frazier slightly ahead

And as far as biased judges, what do they have to say about the Manila judges? 8-4-2, 8-4-2, and 8-3-3 were the scorecards for fight 3.

** Which is ridiculous since Ali was ready to quit a couple of times in the fight and collapsed after the fight. Frazier got the better of Ali in 1 and 3 and never received as much credit as he should because of George Foreman and a short career due to congenital health problems which were exacerbated by his boxing career.

I also thought Frazier won the 3rd round by a close margin on the strength of his harder punching, agressiveness, and the way he finished the last portion of the round strong. Even the 4th round could be argued that Frazier won (landed a couple of really good hooks and he again finished the round the stronger fighter...likely influenced the judges with the way he closed it), although I would personally give Ali the edge in that one.

But overall...

Fight 1: 9-6 for Frazier (or 144-139)

Fight 2: 6-5-1 for Ali (or 115-114...the 2nd wasn't quite a 10-8 round)

You guys are something. It looks like that Frazier had just to be there to win fights. In Manilla Frazier clearly won only two rounds. Rounds 6 and 9. There were a lot of close rounds, but I scored only rounds 3 and 5 for Frazier. So I actually had it even after six rounds. From round 10 till 14 Ali just took it over. His punches landed cleanly and even Norton, another Futch's fighter and Frazier's friend, who was in ringside had to agree that Ali took it over and Frazier was getting hit to much to head. Why don't you guys give credit to Ali for fighting so good inside, especially in third fight. Some of you are saying that Frazier won second. It looks like Ali had to score knock out against anybody to be recognize as a winner, there's a topic for Bonavena fight. No way Frazier won second. Ali danced the whole fight and he was never in any danger. Frazier almost went down in 2nd before referee stopped it.
When I heard rumors about Doug Jones fight with Ali (Clay) being controversial I watched the fight on espn classic and made a copy and watched the fight several times to see if I can give Jones more than three rounds, but I couldn't. Referee in the ring who was closest to the action scored it 8-1-1 for Ali and really that's the way that fight looked like.

You guys are something. It looks like that Frazier had just to be there to win fights. In Manilla Frazier clearly won only two rounds. Rounds 6 and 9. There were a lot of close rounds, but I scored only rounds 3 and 5 for Frazier. So I actually had it even after six rounds. From round 10 till 14 Ali just took it over. His punches landed cleanly and even Norton, another Futch's fighter and Frazier's friend, who was in ringside had to agree that Ali took it over and Frazier was getting hit to much to head. Why don't you guys give credit to Ali for fighting so good inside, especially in third fight.

We do give credit. That's why Ali won the third fight, by fighting so well inside. Why don't YOU give credit to Frazier in the first fight for landing much harder punches, being more aggresive, landing cleaner punches, and executing the fight plan he wanted? Now onto your Manila scorecard. Rounds 6 and 9 were the only two clear Frazier rounds, you said. I actually counted about 5 clear Frazier rounds. 3, 5, 6, 9, and 10. I say 7, 8, 11, and even 12 were all close and could have gone either way. I think your problem is you don't count bodyshots or something. But Frazier rallied big in the 8th after take a lot of punishment early. In the 11th, he was just wailing on Ali in the corner at one point. And Frazier was landing some big headshots too.

Some of you are saying that Frazier won second. It looks like Ali had to score knock out against anybody to be recognize as a winner, there's a topic for Bonavena fight. No way Frazier won second. Ali danced the whole fight and he was never in any danger. Frazier almost went down in 2nd before referee stopped it.

This is exactly the answer I thought you would give. Ali danced the whole fight, but he did nothing spectacular except hold the whole time. Also, as I expected, you brought up the second round where Frazier "almost" went down. Frazier took a hop back, had his feet firmly planted, and was bobbing and weaving to avoid Ali's punches. He would not have gone down.

What was your scorecard for the second fight? 10-2 or something I'm guessing.

You guys are something. It looks like that Frazier had just to be there to win fights. In Manilla Frazier clearly won only two rounds. Rounds 6 and 9. There were a lot of close rounds, but I scored only rounds 3 and 5 for Frazier. So I actually had it even after six rounds. From round 10 till 14 Ali just took it over. His punches landed cleanly and even Norton, another Futch's fighter and Frazier's friend, who was in ringside had to agree that Ali took it over and Frazier was getting hit to much to head. Why don't you guys give credit to Ali for fighting so good inside, especially in third fight. Some of you are saying that Frazier won second. It looks like Ali had to score knock out against anybody to be recognize as a winner, there's a topic for Bonavena fight. No way Frazier won second. Ali danced the whole fight and he was never in any danger. Frazier almost went down in 2nd before referee stopped it.
When I heard rumors about Doug Jones fight with Ali (Clay) being controversial I watched the fight on espn classic and made a copy and watched the fight several times to see if I can give Jones more than three rounds, but I couldn't. Referee in the ring who was closest to the action scored it 8-1-1 for Ali and really that's the way that fight looked like.


you don't get points for dancing around!
frasier was very good at cutting off the ring and he scored the most telling blows ali landed more punches but alot of them were glancing blows this is not an amatuer fight!

in manilla ali did not take over from round 10-14

he lost probably 4 of the fdirst fize rounds then between 6 and 12 he won 5 in round 13 is where he was recieving hard blows and not giving much back this continued into 14 untill it was stopped. if they hadn;t stopped it i believe ali would have KOed frazier

to me the second fight was close but in my mind frazier had the lead for the same reason hge did in the first fight

ali aint lose too bad
he hit em more
n i think the KD is wut convinced judges
but frazier did win in my eyes

I scored second fight 7-4-1 for Ali. I can't remember which exactly rounds I gave to Ali, I do have that fight but I watched it just few times. I know that Ali won first two rounds, and round 9 big. Last 12th round I scored even. I must admit that's the least interesting of all of their three fights. I agree that Ali was holding a lot in second fight, but Frazier's head pressing Ali's chest and sporadic low blows get overlooked for some reason. Ali had to win this fight to fight Foreman, so he fought more safe fight with dancing and stopping Frazier's attacks sometimes by holding in close. I agree with this last post that Frazier's knock down made a difference. I said in my earlier posts that I don't mind that Frazier got victory in FOTC cause his two big rounds 11 and 15 were more impressive than any rounds that Ali won, it's just when I try to score on round basis I give Ali more rounds, and you can see it is not only me, others mentioned that in their posts. Judges were probably impressed by what Frazier was doing like you are, but I said what I saw in that fight. Also, I do think if judges gave first match to Ali it just wouldn't look right. I stay with what I said about Thrilla, and on this one judges agree with me.

people seem to give Ali rounds merely because of his 'dancing' and rope-a-dope. now, the dancing may look impressive, and the rope-a-dope was a great tactic for wearing down opponents, but you shouldnt get no points for it. the bottom line is, Ali is against the ropes taking punches to the body and some to the head, and while its a clever tactic, you shouldnt win a round for eating punches, even if it does benefit you later on in the fight...

I watched the fight again today and still have it 9-6 to Joe, but as I was watching it (especially during the first half of the fight) I couldn't help but think that this was Ali’s prime performance as a fighter. Those combinations were totally awesome. Even though the bobbing and weaving was causing him problems he still stuck in there and still gave Joe problems latter on. Honestly, IMO, if he hadn’t given 100% that fight, he’d be on the canvas sleeping by round nine. Prime performances by both fighters.

I like your response even though we don't agree with score. What I don't like is when somebody don't give Ali enough credit for the way he fought in this one, like it was all Frazier. Frazier was more shot fighter after this match than Ali was. Ali performed extremely well in this fight, but I don't think it was his best performance. Ali's best performances were in 60's. Probably the best one was against Liston, first fight. The way he moved in ring in that fight is nothing short of art, especially in first and third round. Ali performed better against better opposition, but in 60's he was just simly better. Whatch his first fight with Chuvalo, also tough opponent, maybe the toughest guy that ever fought. Patterson almost never hit him during 12 rounds of one sided fight. Patterson was second fastest heavyweight in history, but still couldn't reach Ali. Please no excuses with Patterson's back injury and Liston's age. If you watch Liston against Williams in their two bouts you can see that its the same Liston that fought Ali, but what happened is that Liston couldn't match Ali's speed. He even had Ali blind in fifth and went on him like crazy but still Ali survived, amazing.

i scored it 8-6-1 for frazier

under the 10-point must system i had frazier winning by 3 points

I like your response even though we don't agree with score. What I don't like is when somebody don't give Ali enough credit for the way he fought in this one, like it was all Frazier. Frazier was more shot fighter after this match than Ali was. Ali performed extremely well in this fight, but I don't think it was his best performance. Ali's best performances were in 60's. Probably the best one was against Liston, first fight. The way he moved in ring in that fight is nothing short of art, especially in first and third round. Ali performed better against better opposition, but in 60's he was just simly better. Whatch his first fight with Chuvalo, also tough opponent, maybe the toughest guy that ever fought. Patterson almost never hit him during 12 rounds of one sided fight. Patterson was second fastest heavyweight in history, but still couldn't reach Ali. Please no excuses with Patterson's back injury and Liston's age. If you watch Liston against Williams in their two bouts you can see that its the same Liston that fought Ali, but what happened is that Liston couldn't match Ali's speed. He even had Ali blind in fifth and went on him like crazy but still Ali survived, amazing.

Liston was definetely past his prime. he was slower, and out of shape, and older. he was not the same guy that viciously took out Cleveland Williams in 1960. Plus Ali's best performance was against Cleveland Williams. In the liston fight he missed too many punches. in the Williams fight, his accuracy was the best i've ever seen of any fighter in history. he connects with almost all his punches.

I scored it 7-6-2 for Frazier.

Ali definetely lost.

1.Ali
2.Ali
3.EVEN
4.Ali
5.Ali
6.Frazier
7.Frazier
8.Frazier
9.Ali
10.EVEN
11.Frazier
12.Frazier
13.Frazier
14.Ali
15.Frazier

I just watched it, and i had it almsot exactly the same. 7-6-2 Frazier.
Ialso scored both the 3rd and 10th even.

Last time i watched it i had it slightly wider for Frazier, this time it was very close.
I scored it purley on the punches. U could make a case for Fraziers aggession adding to his score. Or maybe the fact that he made Ali miss so often. Either way, its Fraziers fight.

I believe that it was a much closer fight than the scorecards led people to believe, and the knockdown sealed the deal.
There are rounds that could have gone either way, and I scored the fight differently watching it the second time.

I just watched it, and i had it almsot exactly the same. 7-6-2 Frazier.
Ialso scored both the 3rd and 10th even.

Last time i watched it i had it slightly wider for Frazier, this time it was very close.
I scored it purley on the punches. U could make a case for Fraziers aggession adding to his score. Or maybe the fact that he made Ali miss so often. Either way, its Fraziers fight.

I agree. But 7-6-2 is damn close no matter how you look at it.
11-4 is just bad judging in my opinion.

Liston was definetely past his prime. he was slower, and out of shape, and older. he was not the same guy that viciously took out Cleveland Williams in 1960. Plus Ali's best performance was against Cleveland Williams. In the liston fight he missed too many punches. in the Williams fight, his accuracy was the best i've ever seen of any fighter in history. he connects with almost all his punches.


true but liston got frustrated that was his downfall in my opinion

williams was also well past his prime and his punches were few and far between. its alot easier to hit someone wen you haven't got to worry about anyting coming back!

I just watched it, and i had it almsot exactly the same. 7-6-2 Frazier.
Ialso scored both the 3rd and 10th even.

Last time i watched it i had it slightly wider for Frazier, this time it was very close.
I scored it purley on the punches. U could make a case for Fraziers aggession adding to his score. Or maybe the fact that he made Ali miss so often. Either way, its Fraziers fight.


yeah I had it scored pretty similar.

Now that I can remove any bias I have, 11-2-2 for Frazier is a pretty good score. Ali takes 2 and 9, rounds 1 and 4 even, the rest for Frazier.

It was quite lopsided if one is unbiased. You guys need to quit being Ali nuthuggers.

Joe Frazier won that fight for sure, but Muhammad Ali made him struggle for his win. I have watched that fight many times, and I always crumble in my chair when I see those awesome left hooks landing constantly on Alis unprotected chin. A great fight between a still somewhat ring rusty Ali and a prime Frazier.

By the way, it is amazing how little Ali dances around in this fight. And when he does, Frazier obviously has a difficult time catching him. The younger Ali of the 1960s would beat Frazier by wide decision or late tko, of this I am certain.

I thought ali won all 3 fights/ I woulda loved to see him beat fraizier in his prime. The prime ali seously woulda murdewrd frazier

And when he does, Frazier obviously has a difficult time catching him.

Obviously? Frazier easily caught up to him. Frazier had some of his best moments when Ali was moving around. He had no difficulty landing shots.

Now that I can remove any bias I have, 11-2-2 for Frazier is a pretty good score. Ali takes 2 and 9, rounds 1 and 4 even, the rest for Frazier.

It was quite lopsided if one is unbiased. You guys need to quit being Ali nuthuggers.

Ironic u talking about nuthugging.

Obviously? Frazier easily caught up to him. Frazier had some of his best moments when Ali was moving around. He had no difficulty landing shots.

Hmmm... I remember him suddenly starting to dance around somewhere in the midrounds, and then Frazier could barely lay a glove on him. But Ali only danced in few and shortspanned spurts in this fight. He mostly stood his ground, trying to beat Frazier to the punch. This is why he lost.

I'll check it again sometime, I know at least once Frazier does very well when Ali moves around.

:nonono: I wish my VCR hadn't eaten my copy of this fight.


It was close; but Frazier is easily the winner.

I stay with my score 8-6-1 for Ali on round basis, but I agree with decision going to Frazier. His two big ruonds 11 and 15 gave him victory. Rounds 7,10 and 13 were close. I gave round 7 to Frazier, 10 to Ali, and 13 I scored EVEN. If I give all those three rounds to Frazier, because they were close, and it's not right for those 2 big Frazier's rounds to be scored as other rounds, then I have fight scored 8-7 for Frazier.

I just finished the video...again...
Technical scoring: 8-6-1 Ali
Winner: Frazier
How is this possible?

The more I watch it, the closer the fight looks. A lot of the rounds that people give to Frazier simply because he was working harder while Ali danced and clinched speak volumes about the 180's people take on these forums. People will often speak of the methods for beating a swarmer, and these tactics tend to include firing quick, point-scoring shots, and clinching; or, overpowering the swarmer with long, powerful punches. Since Ali was hardly capable of the latter, he decided to win the early rounds, and clinch Frazier when he brought the attack in the mid-to-late rounds. In this case, however, Ali is being criticized, and his points taken away for clinching a fighter that relies on being free to set up his power punches. I think that this was a tactic for denying Frazier his power, moreso than a lack of conditioning (or ring rust) on Ali's part.

As a side note, I don't know if the dancing Ali would have done so much better as to make it lopsided, as Frazier was very adept at cutting off the ring when he had to, and he rarely tired. The younger Ali probably couldn't take the same punishment as the post-layoff Ali could. Even though he was more agile, his hands were less busy in the early rounds and thus, Joe may have gotten ahead on points simply by working harder while Ali pranced around.

And back we go...

Don't get me wrong: Frazier is my favorite. I love his style, his work ethic, the way he fired in such controlled bursts; but Ali simply won more rounds based on the scoring system. Period. What is being overlooked here, however, by the people who felt as though Ali should have won, is the fact that the rounds Frazier won were, on average, more impressive than the rounds that Ali won. Add to that the fact that Frazier won the rounds at their end, after taking a lot of snapshots from Ali. Also, had the fight gone beyond 15 rounds, Frazier would likely have handed Ali his first knockout loss. Smokin' Joe simply had amazing stamina, perhaps the best in heavyweight history. Because of these reasons, yes, Joe Frazier wins the fight.

If the answers seem to flip-flop, that's because the scoring, the 60's Ali vs. the 70's Ali, and the fight itself could go either way. And even though Ali himself eventually admitted he lost the fight, he sighted on other occassions that he "whooped him" and "...I know it wasn't close.."; also, he said the 1967 version of himself probably would have lost to the Frazier from 1970 for similar reasons listed above. I'm basically stating here that a fighter's own words will flip-flop more often than the observers.

And on and on...

It all depends on your criteria for scoring fights. I score heavier punches much higher than light ones, and so if fighter A clearly hurts fighter B a few times in a round I'll give him that round even if he's getting outboxed or outlanded. Some people just look at who's landing more punches, and for some reason on this website that's just become the norm but in reality there are different ways of scoring a fight, different things to look at. That's part of the reason we have 3 judges today.

PS I had Frazier winning by a clear margin.

I agree with most of that what you wrote, but I do see Ali from 1967 beating Frazier. Ali's punches were much sharper, his reflexes were better. He could dance away from any trouble. Watch him fight Patterson in 1965 and then in 1972, and see the diference, even though Patterson was in his prime in 1965. Also, in 1972 Ali was better than still rusty 1971 Ali that fought Frazier. Watch Ali - Chuvalo I and II and see how much better was young Ali.

Patterson had a back injury in that first fight. That's the only reason he does so horribly compared to the 2nd fight.

Kid Achilles,
Power punches are power punches, and Ali hit Frazier with his own power punches. You can't tell whose punches hurt more, Ali had tendecy to move his head when get hit. You would think when watching it that he was hurt more than he was because of his head movement but actually it helped him. Frazier would just go through punches, so those punches hurt more than they would if he knew to move his head with punch.

Ali hurt Patterson's back with his jabs in middle rounds of that fight. He couldn't fight Ali when his back was good. Patterson played that he was hurt more than he was. That was just his excuse for being beaten so easily, just like Liston when he said his shoulder hurt after stoppage. Everybody finds excuse after losing.

It's more about physically showing your power by moving your opponent's head with the punches. That wins rounds on the scorecards.

And yes you can definitely tell that Frazier threw harder punches in that fight.

I'm not saying that Frazier didn't throw harder punches but when his punches landed Ali's head movement when being hit helped him get hurt less, but for those watching it looks that they hurt more than they actually do. Frazier just went through punches and they had to hurt him, no matter how hard they were thrown.

But it's not about who was hurt more, as that is sometimes impossible to gauge, but who looks like they've been hurt more by punches. The judges will always score against a guy who's head snaps back with every punch, even if it's intentionally, to take the force off of the punch. Still looks bad and hurts you in the scoring.

Kid Achilles,
Power punches are power punches, and Ali hit Frazier with his own power punches. You can't tell whose punches hurt more, Ali had tendecy to move his head when get hit. You would think when watching it that he was hurt more than he was because of his head movement but actually it helped him. Frazier would just go through punches, so those punches hurt more than they would if he knew to move his head with punch.

if you watch alot of alim fights you can tell the difference. sometimes when he was actually hurt he would overact being hurt so people didn't think he was hurt-does that make sense?

ali got dazed quite a few times in that fight i only saw frazier look dazed once

Ali hurt Patterson's back with his jabs in middle rounds of that fight. He couldn't fight Ali when his back was good. Patterson played that he was hurt more than he was. That was just his excuse for being beaten so easily, just like Liston when he said his shoulder hurt after stoppage. Everybody finds excuse after losing.


patterson had a history of a bad back this is why he was doing better against aliin the second fight at 37! i think a prime patterson without the back issues woud have given ali a good fight and possible dropped him wqith the hook but ali would still win in the end

But it's not about who was hurt more, as that is sometimes impossible to gauge, but who looks like they've been hurt more by punches. The judges will always score against a guy who's head snaps back with every punch, even if it's intentionally, to take the force off of the punch. Still looks bad and hurts you in the scoring.

somebody who snaps their head back intentionally is an idiot! a following punch would tear their head clean off thier shoulders

I'm talking about guys who roll with the punche so their head moves with it as opposed to a guy who keeps his neck and head in place when hit.

No offense; but me thinks some of you are watching the fighters and not the fight, if you get my meaning. ;)

Ali moved his head with a punch in all of his fights, he did it to be hit with less force, that's why he was dropped only three times in his career. He wasn't hit many times with combinations, he was too fast and had reflexes to avoid it. Ali said before his fight with Patterson that he was going to hit him with six punches to his every miss, and that's what happened. He didn't expect him to get injured, but injury did happen during I think sixth round. Patterson continuosly got hit with jabs it snapped his head so his back hurt him, but he still continued fighting. He looked better when he fought than when he would go back to his corner, that's why I think he played that he was hurt more than he was.

Ali hurt Patterson's back with his jabs in middle rounds of that fight. He couldn't fight Ali when his back was good. Patterson played that he was hurt more than he was. That was just his excuse for being beaten so easily, just like Liston when he said his shoulder hurt after stoppage. Everybody finds excuse after losing.

This is true. In the early rounds before his back started bothering him, patterson still couldn't lay a glove on him, so I don't see what the difference would have been if not for the bad back.

I just finished the video...again...
Technical scoring: 8-6-1 Ali
Winner: Frazier
How is this possible?

The more I watch it, the closer the fight looks. A lot of the rounds that people give to Frazier simply because he was working harder while Ali danced and clinched speak volumes about the 180's people take on these forums. People will often speak of the methods for beating a swarmer, and these tactics tend to include firing quick, point-scoring shots, and clinching; or, overpowering the swarmer with long, powerful punches. Since Ali was hardly capable of the latter, he decided to win the early rounds, and clinch Frazier when he brought the attack in the mid-to-late rounds. In this case, however, Ali is being criticized, and his points taken away for clinching a fighter that relies on being free to set up his power punches. I think that this was a tactic for denying Frazier his power, moreso than a lack of conditioning (or ring rust) on Ali's part.

Don't get me wrong: Frazier is my favorite. I love his style, his work ethic, the way he fired in such controlled bursts; but Ali simply won more rounds based on the scoring system. Period.

Surley the people that critisize Ali for dancing and clinching are right to do so based on the fact that it is illegal to hold (clinch), plus u score for the fighter that was effectivly agressive, in this case that was mostly Frazier. Therefore it is only right to favour the aggressor rather than the clincher.

I dont think Ali simply won more rounds based on the scoring system if that system includes effective agression, ring generalship, cleaner punches being landed, and the quality or power of those punches also being taken into acount. Its not just the number of punches landing.

IMO Frazier ticked those boxes overall. He was the agressor, he was able to push Ali back and trap him on the ropes, working on the inside, whereas Ali couldnt keep Frazier off for very long. And Frazier also landed the bigger punches throughout the fight.

This is true. In the early rounds before his back started bothering him, patterson still couldn't lay a glove on him, so I don't see what the difference would have been if not for the bad back.


i thought his back was hurting from the start he seemed very tight a gun shy

i do think a prime patterson with a good back would be a challenge for any fighter without a dynamite punch