View Full Version : God, No God, Morals, and Evolution


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K-DOGG
10-14-2006, 02:06 PM
This is not meant to be a thread where we discuss whether or not God exists, for such a thing can not be known with any degree of certainty, for one would have to know the nature of "God" in order to know whether or not such a being existed, and we don't know that. This is more of an examination of why we have evolved to such a state as we are in and what role belief in God or not plays in where we go from here and how we behave. Why have we developed common ethics, which do vary from culture to culture; but still have some essential truths?

First off, I completely understand where you atheists and agnostics are coming from....and don't know how to categorize myself, even. I do believe there is a God; but I'll be the first to admit that it's very difficult believing in God sometimes. Quite often I look at people around me and can see the "ape", so to speak...and have seen him in myself as well on occassion; and it's depressing.

I don't like to think that we are nothing more than animals in pants, quite honestly, for, to me....that kind of sucks. Then I see how readily we are willing to attack those who are different from us or even think differently from us, and I see a bunch of chimps attacking an outside invader who doesn't belong to their click.

Like many who believe, I was brought up in the church, attending every Sunday until I was 24 Years old; so, it is not inconceivable to me that much of why I believe has to do with being told over and over again that it is so and any other way is wrong.

Sure enough, too, my time came when God "let me down" or confused me; and things stopped making sense. As a result, I studied this and I studied that and found out things I didn't like to admit, such as the inconsistancies in the Bible.

However, I also found some comforting thoughts, such as the beliefs of the Oglala Lakota, according to Black Elk, some of the teachings of the Dali Llama, etc. How can religions who were never influenced by Christianity or Judaism teach the same essential priciples? How could Budha and the Oglala and other Native American Nations as well as other peoples who never knew the first thing about Jesus or the Hebrew God be keyed in to the same essential principles that Jesus taught without ever having heard of the man? Common sense? Maybe.....but maybe, just maybe it was something else.

One thing I don't believe in, as a general rule, is coincidence.....and this "maybe", this little maybe helped me to broaden my perception just a little. Some of you would say I'm grasping at straws, and, quite honestly, you may be right.

I choose to believe in God simply because I don't like the alternative. Under the alternative, I see no reason to love my neighbor as myself, I see no reason to obey any of the laws of man, even....for what authority has any man over me other than brute force and why can I not challenge him? Who is any man to tell me what to do? Who is any man to rule over me? Who is any man to tell me what my limitations are? Why can I not rule if I am powerful enough? Why deal with such worthless emotions as pity, mercy, and compassion, and such self-defaming behaviors as humbleness, piety, and modesty if there is no God to tell me that I should?

To me, it is against survival of the fittest and any personal ambitions I might have in my deepest, darkest subconsciousness....if I am merely an evolved animal, after all.

Just a glimpse at my Id, fellas....and just a reason why I chose to believe in God, because I don't like the way any of that sounds, personally. And, I suppose, when you get down to it, the reason it doesn't sound good to me, personally, is because of what I was taught at church growing up.

So, the question to the community is this.....why follow the command of others? Why conform to society if there is no moral reason to...and where do these morals come from and why do we listen to them? In the animal kingdom, the weak die, the strong survive, and the strongest breed, thus securing the strength of the community. Why have we evolved down a different path from the other animals and how is it benefitting us when it seems completely contrary to nature? Those of you who have no belief in God, where do your morals come from and why are morals in our best interest if there is no "punishment" when we are dead for behaving immorally?

Just some thoughts on a Saturday morning......and wondering what you guys think on this topic.

platinummatt!
10-14-2006, 02:46 PM
ahhh my friend I have had these thoughts too and they disturb me. Im confused by what youre asking

K-DOGG
10-14-2006, 02:51 PM
ahhh my friend I have had these thoughts too and they disturb me. Im confused by what youre asking

The question is this, I suppose....if there is no God, why be moral? If man does not have a soul nor an eternal essence....why worry about such things as doing unto others as you would have done unto you?

If there's no referee, why fight fair?

Oasis_Lad
10-14-2006, 02:52 PM
The question is this, I suppose....if there is no God, why be moral? If man does not have a soul nor an eternal essence....why worry about such things as doing unto others as you would have done unto you?

If there's no referee, why fight fair?

because of compassion and the love we feel for another person

i try to be good to people because i would like them to treat me the same
not because of the fear of what god will do to me

K-DOGG
10-14-2006, 02:53 PM
because of compassion and the love we feel for another person

i try to be good to people because i would like them to treat me the same
not because of the fear of what god will do to me


Right...but why is it necessary to possess compassion? To what end does it serve?

Oasis_Lad
10-14-2006, 02:54 PM
oh and if anyone is interested there is a programme about the origins of the ten commandments and their worth and importance in todays society on the history channel

Oasis_Lad
10-14-2006, 02:57 PM
Right...but why is it necessary to possess compassion? To what end does it serve?

it doesn't have to serve any purpose

just maybe seeing a smile on an old ladies face as you give up your seat for her on a bus is enough to know that compassion and kindness only creates compassion and kindness in another

K-DOGG
10-14-2006, 03:01 PM
it doesn't have to serve any purpose

just maybe seeing a smile on an old ladies face as you give up your seat for her on a bus is enough to know that compassion and kindness only creates compassion and kindness in another

Agreed.

However, the perspective I'm attempting to come from here is if all we are are animals in pants, why evolve to such a point where we care about smiles on little old ladies faces? To me, our "evolution", such as it is, is contrary to every other case in nature.....and that just doesn't make sense to me if you take the "spiritual connection" out of the equation.

Oasis_Lad
10-14-2006, 03:03 PM
Agreed.

However, the perception I'm attempting to come from here is if all we are are animals in pants, why evolve to such a point where we care about smiles on little old ladies faces? To me, our "evolution", such as it is, is contrary to every other case in nature.....and that just doesn't make sense to me if you take the "spiritual connection" out of the equation.

a bigger more intelligent brain means more evolved emotions

no one can truly understand evolution maybe it's just chance or maybe we evolve for a reason

who can say

K-DOGG
10-14-2006, 03:13 PM
a bigger more intelligent brain means more evolved emotions

no one can truly understand evolution maybe it's just chance or maybe we evolve for a reason

who can say

It's just been something that's been on my mind lately. I've been having a heated debate with a devout atheist; and some of the questions he asked really dug in and made me realize my own questions. I held my own with him, to my way of thinking; but what is a man if he doesn't put not only his own beliefs but the beliefs of others under the microscope?

I can readily see how other animals have evolved and to what end, yet, human evolution really doesn't make sense to me. In our society, our emotions get in the way of cold hard logic and the way things seem like they ought to be if everything were geared soley towards the growth and affluence of the species. We have evolved into self-destructive behavior, which can be seen in our disagreements with religious beliefs and philosophies, of course. We don't put the strongest in charge in all cases; and we don't abandon the weak, or the dumb....where in the animal kingdom, those are the ones who die, thus ensuring the best DNA moves forward. In our society, our worst traits keep gettin bred into future generations, which has to be seen as detrimental for our species in the long-run. It appears we are sowing the seeds of our own destruction by evolutionary standards.

According to general evolutionary theory, the most desired traits are bred again and again until it is incorporated into virtually all of the offspring.

Where are we heading? What desired trait are we trying to spread? You know as well as I do that the geeky kids aren't the ones getting laid in school...it's the jocks, who are all too often dumb as a damn rock. Intelligence is supposedly what we are trying to pass on....

You see what I mean?

Oasis_Lad
10-14-2006, 03:19 PM
It's just been something that's been on my mind lately. I've been having a heated debate with a devout atheist; and some of the questions he asked really dug in and made me realize my own questions. I held my own with him, to my way of thinking; but what is a man if he doesn't put not only his own beliefs but the beliefs of others under the microscope?

I can readily see how other animals have evolved and to what end, yet, human evolution really doesn't make sense to me. In our society, our emotions get in the way of cold hard logic and the way things seem like they ought to be if everything were geared soley towards the growth and affluence of the species. We have evolved into self-destructive behavior, which can be seen in our disagreements with religious beliefs and philosophies, of course. We don't put the strongest in charge in all cases; and we don't abandon the weak, or the dumb....where in the animal kingdom, inthose are the ones who die, thus ensuring the best DNA moves forward. In our society, our worst traits keep gettin bred into future generations, which has to be seen as detrimental for our species in the long-run. It appears we are sowing the seeds of our own destruction by evolutionary standards.

According to general evolutionary theory, the most desired traits are bred again and again until it is incorporated into virtually all of the offspring.

Where are we heading? What desired trait are we trying to spread? You know as well as I do that the geeky kids aren't the ones getting laid in school...it's the jocks, who are all too often dumb as a damn rock. Intelligence is supposedly what we are trying to pass on....

You see what I mean?


in todays society we have all sorts of influences such as music, televison,movies and religion

we aren't just an animal in the wilderness waiting for evolution to takes it's course

i think we have evolved so much that our future and destiny is in our own hands

such as genetic manipulation in the future mankind could play god and create life and speed up evolution

K-DOGG
10-14-2006, 03:27 PM
in todays society we have all sorts of influences such as music, televison,movies and religion

we aren't just an animal in the wilderness waiting for evolution to takes it's course

i think we have evolved so much that our future and destiny is in our own hands

such as genetic manipulation in the future mankind could play god and create life and speed up evolution

True on the influence thought...no argument.

I don't know, seriously. It's just a road block I can't get past.

Those who are desired are those with influence and power, superficial things in the end. Women who have no child bearing ability are mated, and likewise men are to so that genes are NOT passed along. Why? Love??

What is love? It just seems contradictory to me.

I know what I believe; but taking the "god-factor" and the supernatural element out of the equation leaves me with huge gaps. And, by "god-factor", I don't mean fear of the afterlife as much as I believe the divine being in each and every one of us, making us "special" from all the other animals on this planet. Without that drop of eternity, I can find no reason for us behaving and "evolving" the way we are, for it seems we are a species at odds with ourselves.....and maybe that's just our highly evolved brains; but Dolphins are highly evolved, yet seem to have no problem living in harmony with their environment.

Are Dolphins as evolved as humans? Who's to say they're not? We can't even decipher their "language" yet.

Sorry 'bout the rambling....I'm really trying to figure this out.

Oasis_Lad
10-14-2006, 03:34 PM
True on the influence thought...no argument.

I don't know, seriously. It's just a road block I can't get past.

Those who are desired are those with influence and power, superficial things in the end. Women who have no child bearing ability are mated, and likewise men are to so that genes are NOT passed along. Why? Love??

What is love? It just seems contradictory to me.

I know what I believe; but taking the "god-factor" and the supernatural element out of the equation leaves me with huge gaps. And, by "god-factor", I don't mean fear of the afterlife as much as I believe the divine being in each and every one of us, making us "special" from all the other animals on this planet. Without that drop of eternity, I can find no reason for us behaving and "evolving" the way we are, for it seems we are a species at odds with ourselves.....and maybe that's just our highly evolved brains; but Dolphins are highly evolved, yet seem to have no problem living in harmony with their environment.

Are Dolphins as evolved as humans? Who's to say they're not? We can't even decipher their "language" yet.

Sorry 'bout the rambling....I'm really trying to figure this out.

i have always thought that love as a word is overused but never overated

mankind has been trying to figure it out for centuries
so it may take you a while :D

K-DOGG
10-14-2006, 03:45 PM
i have always thought that love as a word is overused but never overated

mankind has been trying to figure it out for centuries
so it may take you a while :D


:lol1: Oh, good grief! I know what love is.....I mean in the context of why have it in the broad sense that we use it. :D

To me, Love comes from God; but I'm trying to approach this topic from a "godless" standpoint.

No offense to any atheists on here. I'm not saying athiests aren't moral. Christians have their own chain of immorality, so practicing religion has nothing to do with morality, believing in God has nothing to do with morality....though it can teach morals, it can also teach intolerance and prejudice. It really depends upon what you focus on.

My question is how is the way our society has developed following natural evolution?

Oasis_Lad
10-14-2006, 03:53 PM
True on the influence thought...no argument.

I don't know, seriously. It's just a road block I can't get past.

Those who are desired are those with influence and power, superficial things in the end. Women who have no child bearing ability are mated, and likewise men are to so that genes are NOT passed along. Why? Love??

What is love? It just seems contradictory to me.

I know what I believe; but taking the "god-factor" and the supernatural element out of the equation leaves me with huge gaps. And, by "god-factor", I don't mean fear of the afterlife as much as I believe the divine being in each and every one of us, making us "special" from all the other animals on this planet. Without that drop of eternity, I can find no reason for us behaving and "evolving" the way we are, for it seems we are a species at odds with ourselves.....and maybe that's just our highly evolved brains; but Dolphins are highly evolved, yet seem to have no problem living in harmony with their environment.

Are Dolphins as evolved as humans? Who's to say they're not? We can't even decipher their "language" yet.

Sorry 'bout the rambling....I'm really trying to figure this out.

:lol1: Oh, good grief! I know what love is.....I mean in the context of why have it in the broad sense that we use it. :D

To me, Love comes from God; but I'm trying to approach this topic from a "godless" standpoint.


yeah i got that i was just saying that love is said too much and not meant

such as couples getting married and saying they are deeply in love only to split 1 month later

K-DOGG
10-14-2006, 03:59 PM
yeah i got that i was just saying that love is said too much and not meant

such as couples getting married and saying they are deeply in love only to split 1 month later


People do throw that word around too much, no doubt.

Anyway, I'm about to head; but thanks for giving your input as alway Oasis.

I'm seriously trying to figure out this paradoxal existance from another perspective than my own and am looking for as many diverse inputs as possible so as to aide in my thinking. :D

platinummatt!
10-14-2006, 04:32 PM
have a look on my thread in the lounge " why do people keep cussing my religion. " Fruit bats will risk there lives to feed other fruit bats who cant feed themselves. great animals.

I once said something like if there was no god, I wouldnt kill anyone or anything. I think I said that because I thought there would be no afterlife, and nothing for them to go onto. And for some reason I thought god would understand if I felt like killing a few people lmao.


So from a godless stance, why have we developed this way? Well I velieve we have a god so maybe without him, we wouldnt have?

phallus
10-14-2006, 08:55 PM
The question is this, I suppose....if there is no God, why be moral? If man does not have a soul nor an eternal essence....why worry about such things as doing unto others as you would have done unto you?

If there's no referee, why fight fair?

because it still makes the world a better place, perhaps somewill will see u're display of character and honesty and do likewise...

besides...

the question u should be asking is:

how can there be morality without God?

The Noose
10-14-2006, 10:23 PM
My question is how is the way our society has developed following natural evolution?

Nice thread Dogg.

Are the most powerful humans (presidents, kings/queens etc), the ones in positions of power, are they the ones that possess the neccesary lack of compassion to get them where they are?
Do they follow the 'natural' evolutionary path?

The world is supposedly run by a very small group of people. The ones who pull the strings.

David Icke believes the british royal family are actually lizards. Makes sense.



Maybe the masses are like drone bees. Our emotions that are at odds with evolution may be the strings that they pull in order to control us.
"The weak ones are there to justify the strong".

K-DOGG
10-15-2006, 07:17 AM
because it still makes the world a better place, perhaps somewill will see u're display of character and honesty and do likewise...

besides...

the question u should be asking is:

how can there be morality without God?

Good Point, Doc. That's simple and right to the point, so to speak.

I have a tendency to be a bit long-winded at times, as you know.

K-DOGG
10-15-2006, 07:17 AM
Nice thread Dogg.

Are the most powerful humans (presidents, kings/queens etc), the ones in positions of power, are they the ones that possess the neccesary lack of compassion to get them where they are?
Do they follow the 'natural' evolutionary path?

The world is supposedly run by a very small group of people. The ones who pull the strings.

David Icke believes the british royal family are actually lizards. Makes sense.



Maybe the masses are like drone bees. Our emotions that are at odds with evolution may be the strings that they pull in order to control us.
"The weak ones are there to justify the strong".

Scary; but plausible.

K-DOGG
10-15-2006, 09:16 AM
Here's my original ending paragraph with the "question" imbedded:


So, the question to the community is this.....why follow the command of others? Why conform to society if there is no moral reason to...and where do these morals come from and why do we listen to them? In the animal kingdom, the weak die, the strong survive, and the strongest breed, thus securing the strength of the community. Why have we evolved down a different path from the other animals and how is it benefitting us when it seems completely contrary to nature? Those of you who have no belief in God, where do your morals come from and why are morals in our best interest if there is no "punishment" when we are dead for behaving immorally?

Now, if that's too "wordy", Doc Filth summed it up as "How can there be morality without God"; and I would change that a little....."Why would we evolve to develope morality, if there is no God.....what purpose does it serve?"

So, you pick or answer both, depending upon your disposistion.


The idea is basically this....we have morals; and we have people who don't believe in God who are moral just as we have people who believe in God and claim to worship Him/Her who are as immoral as people come. So, obviously, belief in God has nothing to do with whether or not you are a moral person.

As a "believer", I would, of course, say that God is in you, whether you believe it or not....and you are listening to that part of yourself, whether you recognize the source or not.

Now, since I believe in God, I cannot speak from the point of view of someone who does not....which is why I'm specifically asking any atheists to help me understand how or why we have morality or care about morality as humans; how does morality serve us as a species?

May sound like a dumb question and if so, I apologize; but I am serious. In my mind, if all we are are animals in pants, if there is nothing spiritual or eternal about us, I can't see where morality or compassion would benefit our evolution as a species.

Thoughts?

Hope that wasn't even more confusing.

cple
10-15-2006, 02:11 PM
Though i am not an atheist, i'll try to play devil's advocate so to speak.

So the essential question presented in this thread is: how can there be morality without God? Why would humans evolve to develope morality, if there is no God.....what purpose does it serve?

I don't have a definitive answer, but i'll try to present some ideas.

Though i believe that morality ultimately stems from God--as does everything good in this world--but i don't think that means atheists are unable to understand the concept of morals. Their logic is just slightly different than believers. People don't kill because they themselve don't want to be killed. "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" isn't an idea restricted to a Christian's understanding. For example, if you hit someone, i would think it to be natural to expect retaliation; and because of this, people refrain from hitting each other. The same goes for murder, rape, etc.

Another point we be that we have morals because we have evolved. The human brain has grown and become more sophistocated, thus increasing our range and capacity to feel more complicated emotions. Why did we evolve? Who knows? I mean, why is there life in the first place? Maybe just because. Perhaps there is no explanation; it's just chance.

...or evolution is all about self-preservation. Compared to all other animals, humans are fairly weak and awkwardly formed, so intellectual development was necessary for our survival. Intellectual development = larger brains = more sophisticated feelings = the ability to concieve of morality, love, etc. So in a way, morality is connected to survival of the fittest...our survival as a species.

platinummatt!
10-15-2006, 02:47 PM
I] I can't see where morality or compassion would benefit our evolution as a species.[/I]
.

But it would. If everyeone had the idea that theyd try and take over, then there would be cahos and no one would get to live as they want. We need this co operation to be successful as a species. Now the whole thing you could just kill the people such as those who cant help themselves... well yes we dont do that? In our society but unforunately it has happened in others. Im confused:S Were bloody lucky! arnt we really

The Noose
10-15-2006, 04:43 PM
Like agent Smith said, humans are a virus.

."Why would we evolve to develope morality, if there is no God.....what purpose does it serve?"
Maybe along with our intellectual development came the awareness of our mortality and also the recognition that we are alike. We could see ourselves in each other and recognise pain and suffering. From that came compassion.
Why did it happen?
Could just be a nasty little side effect of intelligence.

I would have thought that by seeing each other as ourselves we unite as a species and therefore are capable of achieving much greater goals.
We have developed an awareness that our health and happiness could leave us at anytime and therefore by having compassion for those less fortunate we are unsuring that if/wen we are weak or ill or old, we are repaid with the care we gave out.

Karma?
We have the forsight that if we act like a selfish ******* it will come back to bite us in the ass.
The knowledge of consequenses. And our enevitable aging and eventual death.

The Noose
10-15-2006, 04:53 PM
I guess im classed as an atheist, but my belief in the fact that we (people, animals, plants) are all relying on each other to survive is the closest thing to the classic 'GOD' figure as i come.

I think spirituality is an awareness of that.

That we all came from the same place whether its a big bang or the work of God.
Our connection in this existance. That we share the same time and space. A monkey wearing pants can be as magical as the birth of a star if u look it in the eyes.
Alot of people just keep staring at the pants. lol

K-DOGG
10-16-2006, 05:24 PM
Like agent Smith said, humans are a virus.

."Why would we evolve to develope morality, if there is no God.....what purpose does it serve?"
Maybe along with our intellectual development came the awareness of our mortality and also the recognition that we are alike. We could see ourselves in each other and recognise pain and suffering. From that came compassion.
Why did it happen?
Could just be a nasty little side effect of intelligence.

I would have thought that by seeing each other as ourselves we unite as a species and therefore are capable of achieving much greater goals.
We have developed an awareness that our health and happiness could leave us at anytime and therefore by having compassion for those less fortunate we are unsuring that if/wen we are weak or ill or old, we are repaid with the care we gave out.

Karma?
We have the forsight that if we act like a selfish ******* it will come back to bite us in the ass.
The knowledge of consequenses. And our enevitable aging and eventual death.


Good post, Bobby.....though I would point out that there are plenty of people in the world who act badly towards others and nothing ever happens back to them, just as there are plenty of good people who do good unto others who have bad stuff happen to them all the time. The only time, logically and "un-supernaturally" that "karma" comes into play is when those people who you did either bad or good to remember and have a chance to return the favour....which could be considered both primitive, in the case of vengence.....and intellectual, in the case of returning a good favour.

Still, good post.

K-DOGG
10-16-2006, 05:27 PM
But it would. If everyeone had the idea that theyd try and take over, then there would be cahos and no one would get to live as they want. We need this co operation to be successful as a species. Now the whole thing you could just kill the people such as those who cant help themselves... well yes we dont do that? In our society but unforunately it has happened in others. Im confused:S Were bloody lucky! arnt we really

Playing Devil's advocate, to your arguement that "we need cooperation" to survive as a species, remember.......the Serf system was in place for quite some time where the rich and most powerful, those with the largest armies and such, controlled the peasants and the peasants, if they wanted to survive....served the lords and kings, which were really the next step up from "chief".

K-DOGG
10-16-2006, 05:36 PM
Though i am not an atheist, i'll try to play devil's advocate so to speak.

So the essential question presented in this thread is: how can there be morality without God? Why would humans evolve to develope morality, if there is no God.....what purpose does it serve?

I don't have a definitive answer, but i'll try to present some ideas.

Though i believe that morality ultimately stems from God--as does everything good in this world--but i don't think that means atheists are unable to understand the concept of morals. Their logic is just slightly different than believers. People don't kill because they themselve don't want to be killed. "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" isn't an idea restricted to a Christian's understanding. For example, if you hit someone, i would think it to be natural to expect retaliation; and because of this, people refrain from hitting each other. The same goes for murder, rape, etc.

Another point we be that we have morals because we have evolved. The human brain has grown and become more sophistocated, thus increasing our range and capacity to feel more complicated emotions. Why did we evolve? Who knows? I mean, why is there life in the first place? Maybe just because. Perhaps there is no explanation; it's just chance.

...or evolution is all about self-preservation. Compared to all other animals, humans are fairly weak and awkwardly formed, so intellectual development was necessary for our survival. Intellectual development = larger brains = more sophisticated feelings = the ability to concieve of morality, love, etc. So in a way, morality is connected to survival of the fittest...our survival as a species.

Hmmm. Interesting post. I guess my cold hard logic towards pure evolution with no "God" doesn't allow for evolution to include such emotions because they appear, to me, to be detrimental from a certain perspective....but I can see your point.

In general, evolution happens because certain traits exhibited by the males are desireable by the females of the species, who, ultimately are in charge of what traits get passed on to the next generation. So, therefore...... :thinkerg: the question boils down to ...what....women.....want. :pat:

LOL!!!!!!!! Thread Over!! :lol1:

K-DOGG
10-16-2006, 05:46 PM
:lol1: Okay, seriously. In a weird way, that makes sense.

Every guy on here knows that when it all boils down to it, women are the ones in charge of whether or not we get to have sex. True? Yes. I'm not saying we having developed cunning skills over time and such; but, ultimately, they have the "yes/no" power.

So, as the human brain developed, women who were fed up with neanderthal behavior.....no pun intended, neanderthals, afterall, were a completely different species.......didn't result in as many men having sex, so men had to redefine their behavior a little over time. As a result, men who had the best combination of "manly" as well as "sensitve" and "intelligent" behavior patterns procreated more, thus producing more intelligent offspring with more sensitivities.....morals, sympathy, empathy, etc. in addition to their "manly survival skills".


:eek: Holy ****! I've just answered my own question!!

The reason we have morality, compassion for others and such......is because it took our ancestors displaying these traits in order to get laid.


Good grief. :pat: And I thought there was some deep answer involved.

Nope. :puppy_dog It was about sex all along.



Guess we know now why Adam took a bite of that apple.

K-DOGG
10-16-2006, 05:53 PM
:lol1: Okay, seriously. In a weird way, that makes sense.

Every guy on here knows that when it all boils down to it, women are the ones in charge of whether or not we get to have sex. True? Yes. I'm not saying we having developed cunning skills over time and such; but, ultimately, they have the "yes/no" power.

So, as the human brain developed, women who were fed up with neanderthal behavior.....no pun intended, neanderthals, afterall, were a completely different species.......didn't result in as many men having sex, so men had to redefine their behavior a little over time. As a result, men who had the best combination of "manly" as well as "sensitve" and "intelligent" behavior patterns procreated more, thus producing more intelligent offspring with more sensitivities.....morals, sympathy, empathy, etc. in addition to their "manly survival skills".


:eek: Holy ****! I've just answered my own question!!

The reason we have morality, compassion for others and such......is because it took our ancestors displaying these traits in order to get laid.


Good grief. :pat: And I thought there was some deep answer involved.

Nope. :puppy_dog It was about sex all along.



Guess we know now why Adam took a bite of that apple.


Guys! Seriously, does this make perfect sense......or is it just me??

The Noose
10-16-2006, 05:54 PM
Good post, Bobby.....though I would point out that there are plenty of people in the world who act badly towards others and nothing ever happens back to them, just as there are plenty of good people who do good unto others who have bad stuff happen to them all the time. The only time, logically and "un-supernaturally" that "karma" comes into play is when those people who you did either bad or good to remember and have a chance to return the favour....which could be considered both primitive, in the case of vengence.....and intellectual, in the case of returning a good favour.

Still, good post.

I didnt really mean the actual karma thing. I dont believe in that at all.

But my poverall point was that we have evolved an understanding that we will one day grow old and feeble and our health will fail us. Other animals dont realise this.
So our morality and compassion allow us to help others knowing that one day we will need help.
It makes logical sense to me. And compassion is a kind of self preservation.


I asked my friend this same question. He said we didnt evolve morals, we developed them.

K-DOGG
10-16-2006, 05:56 PM
I didnt really mean the actual karma thing. I dont believe in that at all.

But my poverall point was that we have evolved an understanding that we will one day grow old and feeble and our health will fail us. Other animals dont realise this.
So our morality and compassion allow us to help others knowing that one day we will need help.
It makes logical sense to me. And compassion is a kind of self preservation.


I asked my friend this same question. He said we didnt evolve morals, we developed them.

Okay, I gotcha. Developed, not evolved....makes sense.

The Noose
10-16-2006, 05:56 PM
Guys! Seriously, does this make perfect sense......or is it just me??

lol.
Yea, thats the best answer yet.

That'll teach u to ask other people! :owned:

K-DOGG
10-16-2006, 05:58 PM
lol.
Yea, thats the best answer yet.

That'll teach u to ask other people! :owned:



:lol1: I have nothing more to say. :tapedshut

:D

phallus
10-16-2006, 09:14 PM
Though i am not an atheist, i'll try to play devil's advocate so to speak.

So the essential question presented in this thread is: how can there be morality without God? Why would humans evolve to develope morality, if there is no God.....what purpose does it serve?

I don't have a definitive answer, but i'll try to present some ideas.

Though i believe that morality ultimately stems from God--as does everything good in this world--but i don't think that means atheists are unable to understand the concept of morals. Their logic is just slightly different than believers. People don't kill because they themselve don't want to be killed. "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" isn't an idea restricted to a Christian's understanding. For example, if you hit someone, i would think it to be natural to expect retaliation; and because of this, people refrain from hitting each other. The same goes for murder, rape, etc.

Another point we be that we have morals because we have evolved. The human brain has grown and become more sophistocated, thus increasing our range and capacity to feel more complicated emotions. Why did we evolve? Who knows? I mean, why is there life in the first place? Maybe just because. Perhaps there is no explanation; it's just chance.

...or evolution is all about self-preservation. Compared to all other animals, humans are fairly weak and awkwardly formed, so intellectual development was necessary for our survival. Intellectual development = larger brains = more sophisticated feelings = the ability to concieve of morality, love, etc. So in a way, morality is connected to survival of the fittest...our survival as a species.

this is a good explanantion, cple, u're a smart man. i see however, two problems:

1. self preservation - often in today's world self preservation means tragic consequences for at least one, but often in some cases, many groups of people. i don't see this as a kind of morality, why is one person's survival more meaningful or important than another person's, or better yet, an entire group of people.

2. people do not kill others because they themselves are afraid of being killed. there are certain types of people - masochists, for example, who derive pleasure from pain. these people do indeed want to experience pain at the hands of other people and look for it in every situation. while masochists may be a minority, in todays world a minority is hundreds of thousands of people. there may also indeed be people for whom increasing pain and suffering in the world in general is seen as a good thing. terrorists, for example.


bottom line is: i don't believe it is at all possible to have any kind of morality without an absolute standard - God. with humans, everything is relative - we can make bad into good with false justifications
(yes, just in case u're wondering, i have a philosophy degree)

K-DOGG
10-17-2006, 10:07 AM
this is a good explanantion, cple, u're a smart man. i see however, two problems:

1. self preservation - often in today's world self preservation means tragic consequences for at least one, but often in some cases, many groups of people. i don't see this as a kind of morality, why is one person's survival more meaningful or important than another person's, or better yet, an entire group of people.

2. people do not kill others because they themselves are afraid of being killed. there are certain types of people - masochists, for example, who derive pleasure from pain. these people do indeed want to experience pain at the hands of other people and look for it in every situation. while masochists may be a minority, in todays world a minority is hundreds of thousands of people. there may also indeed be people for whom increasing pain and suffering in the world in general is seen as a good thing. terrorists, for example.


bottom line is: i don't believe it is at all possible to have any kind of morality without an absolute standard - God. with humans, everything is relative - we can make bad into good with false justifications
(yes, just in case u're wondering, i have a philosophy degree)

Bro, you and I are on the same page. :fing02: ....cept of course, I never got a philosophy degree. :D

* FeistyWench *
10-17-2006, 02:12 PM
Guys! Seriously, does this make perfect sense......or is it just me??

it's just you. :ugh: :nonono:




























































:D

K-DOGG
10-17-2006, 02:35 PM
it's just you. :ugh: :nonono:
































































:D


Thanks....knew I could count on you for support.

How's the youngin'?

.....and the mom? ;)

* FeistyWench *
10-17-2006, 02:39 PM
Thanks....knew I could count on you for support.

How's the youngin'?

.....and the mom? ;)

mom is tired. having 2 kids (an infant and toddler) is much more challenging.
joshua is good...still trying to get him to realize that day is for awake and night is for sleeping. he is quite the night owl. i will teach him yet! lol!

K-DOGG
10-17-2006, 02:41 PM
mom is tired. having 2 kids (an infant and toddler) is much more challenging.
joshua is good...still trying to get him to realize that day is for awake and night is for sleeping. he is quite the night owl. i will teach him yet! lol!

Slip some bourbon in his bottle; that'll teach him.


:eek: Just kidding!!!! :D

* FeistyWench *
10-17-2006, 02:44 PM
Slip some bourbon in his bottle; that'll teach him.


:eek: Just kidding!!!! :D
i have heard that before. that and benadryl. not necessary though. :)

i just have to keep him up during the day. of course any time a baby is sleeping you feel crazy to wake it up and risk the crying/fussing.

* FeistyWench *
10-17-2006, 02:46 PM
btw i had a great response to this thread but for some reason the lack of sleep is making it difficult for me to express myself and to type my thoughts in a way that actually make sense, so i will not bother.


that's kinda like starting to tell someone something and then saying never mind, isn't it? sorry. :puppy_dog

K-DOGG
10-17-2006, 02:50 PM
btw i had a great response to this thread but for some reason the lack of sleep is making it difficult for me to express myself and to type my thoughts in a way that actually make sense, so i will not bother.


that's kinda like starting to tell someone something and then saying never mind, isn't it? sorry. :puppy_dog


That's okay. Collect your thoughts and when you feel like it, put 'em down. I'd love to hear your take.

The Noose
10-17-2006, 04:34 PM
Yea, this thread have had a feisty shaped hole in it, as has the whole lounge.

rageinme
12-05-2006, 03:52 AM
The question is this, I suppose....if there is no God, why be moral? If man does not have a soul nor an eternal essence....why worry about such things as doing unto others as you would have done unto you?

If there's no referee, why fight fair?

BELIEVE ME OR NOT BUT THERE IS A GOD.HE BELIEVE'S IN YOU

The Noose
12-05-2006, 05:28 AM
BELIEVE ME OR NOT BUT THERE IS A GOD.HE BELIEVE'S IN YOU

Why does that irritate me?

There is a certain amount of arrogance i feel wen people say stuff like that.
Maybe its the way u look at it.
But it seems there is a point at which somones belief clouds out them acknowledging that for other people not believing in god works for them.

U never see an aetheist preaching on the street or going door to door trying to open people up to the idea of happiness without god.

K-DOGG
12-05-2006, 12:22 PM
BELIEVE ME OR NOT BUT THERE IS A GOD.HE BELIEVE'S IN YOU

Oh, I know. He/She and I are like "that". I can't say I understand all the time, for that would be a lie; but I do believe.

rageinme
12-05-2006, 02:24 PM
Why does that irritate me?

There is a certain amount of arrogance i feel wen people say stuff like that.
Maybe its the way u look at it.
But it seems there is a point at which somones belief clouds out them acknowledging that for other people not believing in god works for them.

U never see an aetheist preaching on the street or going door to door trying to open people up to the idea of happiness without god.

just saying the truth man.and trying to irritate anyone

rageinme
12-05-2006, 02:27 PM
just saying the truth man.and trying to irritate anyone

mean't to say not trying to irritate

rageinme
12-05-2006, 02:46 PM
Oh, I know. He/She and I are like "that". I can't say I understand all the time, for that would be a lie; but I do believe.

so what are your believe's?

The Noose
12-05-2006, 02:58 PM
mean't to say not trying to irritate

Yea, i know. No problemo.

I actually came to the conclusion along time ago that if there is a god, he understands my choice not to believe in him.

Sin City
12-05-2006, 03:06 PM
This is not meant to be a thread where we discuss whether or not God exists, for such a thing can not be known with any degree of certainty, for one would have to know the nature of "God" in order to know whether or not such a being existed, and we don't know that. This is more of an examination of why we have evolved to such a state as we are in and what role belief in God or not plays in where we go from here and how we behave. Why have we developed common ethics, which do vary from culture to culture; but still have some essential truths?

First off, I completely understand where you atheists and agnostics are coming from....and don't know how to categorize myself, even. I do believe there is a God; but I'll be the first to admit that it's very difficult believing in God sometimes. Quite often I look at people around me and can see the "ape", so to speak...and have seen him in myself as well on occassion; and it's depressing.

I don't like to think that we are nothing more than animals in pants, quite honestly, for, to me....that kind of sucks. Then I see how readily we are willing to attack those who are different from us or even think differently from us, and I see a bunch of chimps attacking an outside invader who doesn't belong to their click.

Like many who believe, I was brought up in the church, attending every Sunday until I was 24 Years old; so, it is not inconceivable to me that much of why I believe has to do with being told over and over again that it is so and any other way is wrong.

Sure enough, too, my time came when God "let me down" or confused me; and things stopped making sense. As a result, I studied this and I studied that and found out things I didn't like to admit, such as the inconsistancies in the Bible.

However, I also found some comforting thoughts, such as the beliefs of the Oglala Lakota, according to Black Elk, some of the teachings of the Dali Llama, etc. How can religions who were never influenced by Christianity or Judaism teach the same essential priciples? How could Budha and the Oglala and other Native American Nations as well as other peoples who never knew the first thing about Jesus or the Hebrew God be keyed in to the same essential principles that Jesus taught without ever having heard of the man? Common sense? Maybe.....but maybe, just maybe it was something else.

One thing I don't believe in, as a general rule, is coincidence.....and this "maybe", this little maybe helped me to broaden my perception just a little. Some of you would say I'm grasping at straws, and, quite honestly, you may be right.

I choose to believe in God simply because I don't like the alternative. Under the alternative, I see no reason to love my neighbor as myself, I see no reason to obey any of the laws of man, even....for what authority has any man over me other than brute force and why can I not challenge him? Who is any man to tell me what to do? Who is any man to rule over me? Who is any man to tell me what my limitations are? Why can I not rule if I am powerful enough? Why deal with such worthless emotions as pity, mercy, and compassion, and such self-defaming behaviors as humbleness, piety, and modesty if there is no God to tell me that I should?

To me, it is against survival of the fittest and any personal ambitions I might have in my deepest, darkest subconsciousness....if I am merely an evolved animal, after all.

Just a glimpse at my Id, fellas....and just a reason why I chose to believe in God, because I don't like the way any of that sounds, personally. And, I suppose, when you get down to it, the reason it doesn't sound good to me, personally, is because of what I was taught at church growing up.

So, the question to the community is this.....why follow the command of others? Why conform to society if there is no moral reason to...and where do these morals come from and why do we listen to them? In the animal kingdom, the weak die, the strong survive, and the strongest breed, thus securing the strength of the community. Why have we evolved down a different path from the other animals and how is it benefitting us when it seems completely contrary to nature? Those of you who have no belief in God, where do your morals come from and why are morals in our best interest if there is no "punishment" when we are dead for behaving immorally?

Just some thoughts on a Saturday morning......and wondering what you guys think on this topic.



Basically for me, I am an atheist...there is no need for a god to justify good actions or morals, I abide by the rules and help others for one simple reason..As a society we have developed and understand that we need rules if not we will not function correctly, Our brain is highly evolved yet still sometimes primitive but it understands that you cant do something to another if you dont want it done to you. So thats basically how we set out laws and mind set of what is wrong or right...You wouldn't want someone to kill you so its not right to kill...etc. I wish I could explain it better but I'm not a scholar...If you want a educated answer from an atheist read Richard Dawkins book "The God Delusion" or Sam Harris "The End of Faith: Religion, Terror, and the Future of Reason"

Sin City
12-05-2006, 03:11 PM
oh and also humans are not the only ones who feal emotions...take my dog for example...I yell at him for doing something wrong, he knows what he did and you can see he feals guilt, you try to get close to me and he doesn't know you he feals jelousy, you try to touch his food bowl and he feals greed and grawls at you. When none of the kids are in the house and hes by himself...he feals sad....Humans aren't the only ones who have evolved or developed emotions.

Sin City
12-05-2006, 03:13 PM
It's just been something that's been on my mind lately. I've been having a heated debate with a devout atheist; and some of the questions he asked really dug in and made me realize my own questions. I held my own with him, to my way of thinking; but what is a man if he doesn't put not only his own beliefs but the beliefs of others under the microscope?

I can readily see how other animals have evolved and to what end, yet, human evolution really doesn't make sense to me. In our society, our emotions get in the way of cold hard logic and the way things seem like they ought to be if everything were geared soley towards the growth and affluence of the species. We have evolved into self-destructive behavior, which can be seen in our disagreements with religious beliefs and philosophies, of course. We don't put the strongest in charge in all cases; and we don't abandon the weak, or the dumb....where in the animal kingdom, those are the ones who die, thus ensuring the best DNA moves forward. In our society, our worst traits keep gettin bred into future generations, which has to be seen as detrimental for our species in the long-run. It appears we are sowing the seeds of our own destruction by evolutionary standards.

According to general evolutionary theory, the most desired traits are bred again and again until it is incorporated into virtually all of the offspring.

Where are we heading? What desired trait are we trying to spread? You know as well as I do that the geeky kids aren't the ones getting laid in school...it's the jocks, who are all too often dumb as a damn rock. Intelligence is supposedly what we are trying to pass on....

You see what I mean?
If we dont abandone the weak or the dumb, why the majority of the homeless population have some type of mental illness or is mentaly retarded. if we dont abandone the weak why do we pay no attention to the people dying in africa? etc.


oh and if religious people who believe in god or religion so moral then per percentage why out of the whole atheist population is there only about 7-9% in prisons when christians make up 75% of the prison population.

Yogi
12-05-2006, 03:21 PM
Seeing as how he started this thread in October, all I can say is that I'm glad my buddy, K-Dogg, has evolved over the last couple of months from this to his most current state of being "I simply am".

I kid, of course.

P.S. I live in the longer now.

rageinme
12-05-2006, 03:22 PM
Yea, i know. No problemo.

I actually came to the conclusion along time ago that if there is a god, he understands my choice not to believe in him.

God does give you a choice, he dose'nt force anyone 2 believe in him.
But if you believe or not he is still there and always is gonna be there.
ha care's

K-DOGG
12-05-2006, 03:30 PM
If we dont abandone the weak or the dumb, why the majority of the homeless population have some type of mental illness or is mentaly retarded. if we dont abandone the weak why do we pay no attention to the people dying in africa? etc.


oh and if religious people who believe in god or religion so moral then per percentage why out of the whole atheist population is there only about 7-9% in prisons when christians make up 75% of the prison population.


Aye. Touche'. Nice one.

K-DOGG
12-05-2006, 03:31 PM
Seeing as how he started this thread in October, all I can say is that I'm glad my buddy, K-Dogg, has evolved over the last couple of months from this to his most current state of being "I simply am".

I kid, of course.

P.S. I live in the longer now.

lol!!! ....and am forever redefining myself. ;)

K-DOGG
12-05-2006, 03:34 PM
so what are your believe's?

In a nutshell, that God is in each and every one of us. He is neither a he nor a she; but an entity beyond description, beyond time, beyond space, and beyond our ability to comprehend; but he/she is the one constant that binds all of us together like glue....if we choose to listen to him/her.

I believe man is half-n-half....half animal, half spiritual; and the purpose for us being here is to choose to listen to what unites us rather than what separates us.

rageinme
12-05-2006, 04:10 PM
In a nutshell, that God is in each and every one of us. He is neither a he nor a she; but an entity beyond description, beyond time, beyond space, and beyond our ability to comprehend; but he/she is the one constant that binds all of us together like glue....if we choose to listen to him/her.

I believe man is half-n-half....half animal, half spiritual; and the purpose for us being here is to choose to listen to what unites us rather than what separates us.

I once did not believe in jc bro but let me tell you he changed my life in so many different ways,it's amazing.don't mean 2 sound corny but its true.
PSALMS 103:12

K-DOGG
12-05-2006, 04:16 PM
I once did not believe in jc bro but let me tell you he changed my life in so many different ways,it's amazing.don't mean 2 sound corny but its true.
PSALMS 103:12

Nothing "corny" about it if you can "feel it".

The thing about "me" is I know there's a connection between all the peoples of the world, for we are all one....and God speaks through each and every one of us, if we let him/her.

Our collective history is so mired by time that we may never know "where we came from" precisely; but whatever the ultimate truth is of how we came to be and all of the known roads as well as the forgotten ones.....we ARE connected. We are one soul, one spirit, and part of one whole.


...at least that's the way I see it.

Sin City
12-05-2006, 04:26 PM
I once did not believe in jc bro but let me tell you he changed my life in so many different ways,it's amazing.don't mean 2 sound corny but its true.
PSALMS 103:12
there is no evidence of a historical Jesus what so ever in the two points in time he does seem to be intertwined with history the stories are upssurd (did i spell that right, don't think so. lol) Jesus is and was a myth derived from pagan religions and folk tales from near by countrys. Such gods like Krishna, Osiris, Mythras, Dionisis were born of a virgin birth, visited by wise men, descended into hell only to rise back (or tempted by the devil) and sacrificed etc. The Catholic church will even admit to it and the only reply they have against is is that the devil new Jesus was gonna be born so years before his birth he made all these falls gods to take away the credibility of Jesus....pretty dumb if you ask me.

rageinme
12-05-2006, 04:30 PM
Nothing "corny" about it if you can "feel it".

The thing about "me" is I know there's a connection between all the peoples of the world, for we are all one....and God speaks through each and every one of us, if we let him/her.

Our collective history is so mired by time that we may never know "where we came from" precisely; but whatever the ultimate truth is of how we came to be and all of the known roads as well as the forgotten ones.....we ARE connected. We are one soul, one spirit, and part of one whole.


...at least that's the way I see it.

why do you say him/her? do you think god is a women?

rageinme
12-05-2006, 04:35 PM
there is no evidence of a historical Jesus what so ever in the two points in time he does seem to be intertwined with history the stories are upssurd (did i spell that right, don't think so. lol) Jesus is and was a myth derived from pagan religions and folk tales from near by countrys. Such gods like Krishna, Osiris, Mythras, Dionisis were born of a virgin birth, visited by wise men, descended into hell only to rise back (or tempted by the devil) and sacrificed etc. The Catholic church will even admit to it and the only reply they have against is is that the devil new Jesus was gonna be born so years before his birth he made all these falls gods to take away the credibility of Jesus....pretty dumb if you ask me.

so what are you saying do you believe or not

K-DOGG
12-05-2006, 04:35 PM
why do you say him/her? do you think god is a women?


God is both and neither.

Man/woman is a human condition and had nothing to do with the spiritual or supernatural. We are men and women on this plain of existance because it is necessary for reproduction; it is not reflective of our true selves which is neither male nor female.

K-DOGG
12-05-2006, 04:40 PM
there is no evidence of a historical Jesus what so ever in the two points in time he does seem to be intertwined with history the stories are upssurd (did i spell that right, don't think so. lol) Jesus is and was a myth derived from pagan religions and folk tales from near by countrys. Such gods like Krishna, Osiris, Mythras, Dionisis were born of a virgin birth, visited by wise men, descended into hell only to rise back (or tempted by the devil) and sacrificed etc. The Catholic church will even admit to it and the only reply they have against is is that the devil new Jesus was gonna be born so years before his birth he made all these falls gods to take away the credibility of Jesus....pretty dumb if you ask me.

The Hebrew Josehpus made reference to him as have others. Of course they weren't going to make a big deal out of him because he was not considered a prophet of not by the Jews of the time. However, I find it no small coincidence that even 60 years after his death the cult of Jesus was known to Roman Emperor Marcus Arilius.....just as the cult of Isis which was imported from Egypt. An explosion of worshipers to the north, south, and east of Israel shortly after teh death of Jesus is far more than a mere coincidence.....and before Constantine made it the official religion of Rome.

The circumstancial evidence is abundant, whether the physical evidence is or not.

rageinme
12-05-2006, 04:44 PM
God is both and neither.

Man/woman is a human condition and had nothing to do with the spiritual or supernatural. We are men and women on this plain of existance because it is necessary for reproduction; it is not reflective of our true selves which is neither male nor female.

do you believe or read the bible?

K-DOGG
12-05-2006, 04:47 PM
do you believe or read the bible?

I have read it and do read it; but understand that it was written by men in a patriarchal society where women weren't valued much higher than property. I also understand that there were many, many books left out of the kannon of the Bible because they did not fit the agreed upon criteria by the Council of Trent and that the gnostics, among others, were left out in the cold, so to speak.

The book we know as The Bible contains the truth, I believe; but among the truth it also contains periodical propoganda based on where the writers were at the time and whether they were based out of Judah or Israel, etc.

You just have to know what to look for to understand the meat of it.

Sin City
12-05-2006, 04:48 PM
so what are you saying do you believe or not
I'm saying I don't Believe in Jesus....Just like I dont believe in Zues, or any other god.


the god who wasn't there trailer:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=con-a0ValVI

a good watch....if you don't like to read!

some clips:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H91kBBU-CWE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xAPIngDjJVo

Sin City
12-05-2006, 04:52 PM
The Hebrew Josehpus made reference to him as have others. Of course they weren't going to make a big deal out of him because he was not considered a prophet of not by the Jews of the time. However, I find it no small coincidence that even 60 years after his death the cult of Jesus was known to Roman Emperor Marcus Arilius.....just as the cult of Isis which was imported from Egypt. An explosion of worshipers to the north, south, and east of Israel shortly after teh death of Jesus is far more than a mere coincidence.....and before Constantine made it the official religion of Rome.

The circumstancial evidence is abundant, whether the physical evidence is or not.
The Romans who executed jesus documented everything, why didn't they document his execution? Why is there a 40 yr gap between when Jesus was supposedly crusified and when the religion started to take off...its like they new jesus he got crusified....forgot then 40 yrs later they remembered again!

rageinme
12-05-2006, 04:54 PM
The Romans who executed jesus documented everything, why didn't they document his execution? Why is there a 40 yr gap between when Jesus was supposedly crusified and when the religion started to take off...its like they new jesus he got crusified....forgot then 40 yrs later they remembered again!

ok do you read bible?

Sin City
12-05-2006, 04:55 PM
K-Dogg heres the whole movie if you are interested in watching it... Its what im trying to say only in pictures lol...Beats reading the book kinda lol

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7498241687701731240&q=the+god+who+wasn%27t+there

K-DOGG
12-05-2006, 04:55 PM
The Romans who executed jesus documented everything, why didn't they document his execution? Why is there a 40 yr gap between when Jesus was supposedly crusified and when the religion started to take off...its like they new jesus he got crusified....forgot then 40 yrs later they remembered again!

1. I presume you know that "Jesus" wasn't his Aramaic name; but was Yoshua bin yosef....which was a very common name among the Jews.

2. Why would the Romans put an astrict next to just another Jew's death?

Here are some non-Christian "Jesus references":

Among non-Christian writers of antiquity, Tacitus, Suetonius, and Pliny the Younger refer to Jesus, as does Josephus (Joseph ben Matthias) in at least one passage.


...so, the man, Jesus, did exist. Whether or not he was indeed the Son of God, is a matter of Faith; but his teachings apparently do have a physical source.

Sin City
12-05-2006, 04:57 PM
ok do you read bible?
Yeah until I was about 17 I went to church and it was drilled in my head day in and day out...thankfully I'm not a slave to a god who doesn't exist anymore!

rageinme
12-05-2006, 05:01 PM
I have read it and do read it; but understand that it was written by men in a patriarchal society where women weren't valued much higher than property. I also understand that there were many, many books left out of the kannon of the Bible because they did not fit the agreed upon criteria by the Council of Trent and that the gnostics, among others, were left out in the cold, so to speak.

The book we know as The Bible contains the truth, I believe; but among the truth it also contains periodical propoganda based on where the writers were at the time and whether they were based out of Judah or Israel, etc.

You just have to know what to look for to understand the meat of it.

the men that wrote the bible were told my god>

Sin City
12-05-2006, 05:06 PM
the men that wrote the bible were told my god>
dude watch the video:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...wasn%27t+there

then come back and explain to me why theres a reason for me to believe that those men were teliing a truth and didn't have a hidden agenda. people to this day will make propaganda (like the bible) to gain power!

K-DOGG
12-05-2006, 05:07 PM
the men that wrote the bible were told my god>

I am not trying to shake your faith, nor do I claim to have all of the answers. All I know is not everything in the Bible adds up historically and that there are several contradictions. Man is falable and prone to let his own perspective taint a good message. It doesn't mean the heart of the truth is not in there, or even that there's enough of it in there for you to find your way unerringly.

My goal is not to throw you off your path. Just know that there are many more "books" or "gospels" than were included in the Bible...and before the Bible cannon was finalized by the Council of Trent under the orders of Constantine if yiou went to 20 towns, you'd find 20 versions of the gospel, with just as many different books.

God is bigger than The Bible.

rageinme
12-05-2006, 05:17 PM
Yeah until I was about 17 I went to church and it was drilled in my head day in and day out...thankfully I'm not a slave to a god who doesn't exist anymore!

I went throw that to bro.but when I did it on my own is when I FOUND him.
but that your life god won't force it on you

K-DOGG
12-05-2006, 05:18 PM
K-Dogg heres the whole movie if you are interested in watching it... Its what im trying to say only in pictures lol...Beats reading the book kinda lol

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7498241687701731240&q=the+god+who+wasn%27t+there

Unfortunately, I don't have video capability on this computer; but I appreciate the effort.

What's the official title...is this the Hawkins book you spoke of?

rageinme
12-05-2006, 05:23 PM
I am not trying to shake your faith, nor do I claim to have all of the answers. All I know is not everything in the Bible adds up historically and that there are several contradictions. Man is falable and prone to let his own perspective taint a good message. It doesn't mean the heart of the truth is not in there, or even that there's enough of it in there for you to find your way unerringly.

My goal is not to throw you off your path. Just know that there are many more "books" or "gospels" than were included in the Bible...and before the Bible cannon was finalized by the Council of Trent under the orders of Constantine if yiou went to 20 towns, you'd find 20 versions of the gospel, with just as many different books.

it's cool bro, I can't really tell you how I feel in my heart but how the bible spoke to me/jc really change my life thats why I know it's the truth.

Sin City
12-05-2006, 05:24 PM
Unfortunately, I don't have video capability on this computer; but I appreciate the effort.

What's the official title...is this the Hawkins book you spoke of?
No the movie is called "The God Who Wasn't There" the book by Hawkins is "The God Dilusion"....and the Sam Harris book is called "The End of Faith"
[both are really good books and the movie is good too!]


I don't hate Christians I just dislike them so much because I've been discriminated by them, I view all religious people as hypocrites because of my experiences with them and found that you can not debate religion with them with out them turning to name calling or getting ticked off at you and insulting you.

K-DOGG
12-05-2006, 05:28 PM
No the movie is called "The God Who Wasn't There" the book by Hawkins is "The God Dilusion"....and the Sam Harris book is called "The End of Faith"
[both are really good books and the movie is good too!]


I don't hate Christians I just dislike them so much because I've been discriminated by them, I view all religious people as hypocrites because of my experiences with them and found that you can not debate religion with them with out them turning to name calling or getting ticked off at you and insulting you.

That's understandable, for those who believe strongly generaly do take it personal when you disagree with them.

But, for what it's worth, I do believe and am willing to discuss the topic with anyone with unjudgemental eyes, for I do not confess to know the whole truth. I don't know if I can do any of it justice; but anytime you wish to discuss religion or theology...if you do....I give you my world I won't name call or take offense.

K-DOGG
12-05-2006, 05:29 PM
it's cool bro, I can't really tell you how I feel in my heart but how the bible spoke to me/jc really change my life thats why I know it's the truth.

Hey, then it did it's job, no? :)

If God speaks to you and you can feel His/Her presence.....embrace it and use it.

rageinme
12-05-2006, 05:38 PM
No the movie is called "The God Who Wasn't There" the book by Hawkins is "The God Dilusion"....and the Sam Harris book is called "The End of Faith"
[both are really good books and the movie is good too!]


I don't hate Christians I just dislike them so much because I've been discriminated by them, I view all religious people as hypocrites because of my experiences with them and found that you can not debate religion with them with out them turning to name calling or getting ticked off at you and insulting you.

I understand you bro, we as christians should not be hypocrites, nobody is perfect
we do not need that kind of christians,nor god those not expect us to be perfect.

Sin City
12-05-2006, 05:43 PM
That's understandable, for those who believe strongly generaly do take it personal when you disagree with them.

But, for what it's worth, I do believe and am willing to discuss the topic with anyone with unjudgemental eyes, for I do not confess to know the whole truth. I don't know if I can do any of it justice; but anytime you wish to discuss religion or theology...if you do....I give you my world I won't name call or take offense.
yeah no problem bro!

rageinme
12-05-2006, 05:53 PM
Hey, then it did it's job, no? :)

If God speaks to you and you can feel His/Her presence.....embrace it and use it.

thank's to god

The Noose
12-06-2006, 07:49 AM
Yeah until I was about 17 I went to church and it was drilled in my head day in and day out...thankfully I'm not a slave to a god who doesn't exist anymore!

I can relate to that. I also stopped going to church wen i was 17. It pissed me off that i was brought up to believe i must pray and believe in god etc. I was kinda made to feel like a peice of **** if i didnt go to church. It wasnt so much my parents, but what i would call the culture of chatholisim. I went to chatholic schools also.

But since then, and through talking to different people, ive learned that u shouldnt let ur personal experience rule the way u viewall christians.
I try to keep an open mind and know see that jesus, or god, or the bible (real or not) can be very inspiring things if u look at them the right way.

It can be easy to be a slave to ur past, u know?

Ta Khent
12-06-2006, 08:36 AM
The fear of death and eternal damnation puts one in slavery. Slavery is hell which keeps you out of heaven. Freedom of mind...Heaven to a caged animal is outside the cage, hell to a rich man is a night in poverty. Heaven and Hell are the conditions of the mind which guides the physical body into either one of these. We create those conditions by our actions. Religious folk want to make you think that its somewhere you go when you are dead. Just live your life; Don't let religious fear mongers take you away from living your life to the fullest.

Ta Khent
12-06-2006, 09:58 AM
the men that wrote the bible were told my god>

Now that's just plain silly. Think about what you said. Who needs a book to support a truth for that book will only be the thoughts of someone else anyway? That will only tell me that the book would be a shared perception which means the TRUTH will be only to those who share it. If you don't comprehend that concept, I can share many books I have read that share similiar thoughts, but still, how is relevant in determining the truth?

rageinme
12-06-2006, 03:20 PM
Now that's just plain silly. Think about what you said. Who needs a book to support a truth for that book will only be the thoughts of someone else anyway? That will only tell me that the book would be a shared perception which means the TRUTH will be only to those who share it. If you don't comprehend that concept, I can share many books I have read that share similiar thoughts, but still, how is relevant in determining the truth?

if thats what you think thats cool, but he did something in me that nobody ever could do bro, and thats something I can not say is fake

rageinme
12-06-2006, 03:40 PM
Proverbs 12:16-17

Ta Khent
12-06-2006, 04:49 PM
if thats what you think thats cool, but he did something in me that nobody ever could do bro, and thats something I can not say is fake


How do you know that it was It who did it?

KingDosia
12-06-2006, 05:15 PM
It's just been something that's been on my mind lately. I've been having a heated debate with a devout atheist; and some of the questions he asked really dug in and made me realize my own questions. I held my own with him, to my way of thinking; but what is a man if he doesn't put not only his own beliefs but the beliefs of others under the microscope?

I can readily see how other animals have evolved and to what end, yet, human evolution really doesn't make sense to me. In our society, our emotions get in the way of cold hard logic and the way things seem like they ought to be if everything were geared soley towards the growth and affluence of the species. We have evolved into self-destructive behavior, which can be seen in our disagreements with religious beliefs and philosophies, of course. We don't put the strongest in charge in all cases; and we don't abandon the weak, or the dumb....where in the animal kingdom, those are the ones who die, thus ensuring the best DNA moves forward. In our society, our worst traits keep gettin bred into future generations, which has to be seen as detrimental for our species in the long-run. It appears we are sowing the seeds of our own destruction by evolutionary standards.

According to general evolutionary theory, the most desired traits are bred again and again until it is incorporated into virtually all of the offspring.

Where are we heading? What desired trait are we trying to spread? You know as well as I do that the geeky kids aren't the ones getting laid in school...it's the jocks, who are all too often dumb as a damn rock. Intelligence is supposedly what we are trying to pass on....

You see what I mean?

I have argued the same thing with similiar enthusiasm. The question even the most stuborn athiest can not answer is this

Even if it can be proved that we are an desendent of the apes. that the apes came from somthing else. That we can trace living organisms to a cingle cell creature. And can even explain what made that creature. Even if you have an argument that will show everything on a timeline tracing back to the "big bang" theory. You can not explain where that came from. Some power some be it being or entitiy started all of it. If not God what would you chose to call it. And if this phenomenon isn't the King of the heaven you reject existing because you came from am ape. Does that mean you shouldn't appreciate what you have been given and respect others who are trying there best to just survive?

I have stumped more than one with that exact paragraph. Somthing else that will catch is the fact that even though you may chose to believe that you are nothing more than a group of cells doing what it must to survive. And that a God does not exsist. Why is spiritual nurturing such a sucess at creating inner peace and harmony? I argued once that we make ourselves believe that is what happiness is because what we are told from childhood on. But in pschycology it is said to be necessary and perscribed to the mentaly ill. Not necessarily Religon, but some sort of spiritual nurturing. Even meditation. Makes you think about the Spirit. Why would the brain need such function?

K-DOGG
12-06-2006, 05:30 PM
I have argued the same thing with similiar enthusiasm. The question even the most stuborn athiest can not answer is this

Even if it can be proved that we are an desendent of the apes. that the apes came from somthing else. That we can trace living organisms to a cingle cell creature. And can even explain what made that creature. Even if you have an argument that will show everything on a timeline tracing back to the "big bang" theory. You can not explain where that came from. Some power some be it being or entitiy started all of it. If not God what would you chose to call it. And if this phenomenon isn't the King of the heaven you reject existing because you came from am ape. Does that mean you shouldn't appreciate what you have been given and respect others who are trying there best to just survive?

I have stumped more than one with that exact paragraph. Somthing else that will catch is the fact that even though you may chose to believe that you are nothing more than a group of cells doing what it must to survive. And that a God does not exsist. Why is spiritual nurturing such a sucess at creating inner peace and harmony? I argued once that we make ourselves believe that is what happiness is because what we are told from childhood on. But in pschycology it is said to be necessary and perscribed to the mentaly ill. Not necessarily Religon, but some sort of spiritual nurturing. Even meditation. Makes you think about the Spirit. Why would the brain need such function?


Couldn't agree more. Nice post.

Sin City
12-06-2006, 05:59 PM
I have argued the same thing with similiar enthusiasm. The question even the most stuborn athiest can not answer is this

Even if it can be proved that we are an desendent of the apes. that the apes came from somthing else. That we can trace living organisms to a cingle cell creature. And can even explain what made that creature. Even if you have an argument that will show everything on a timeline tracing back to the "big bang" theory. You can not explain where that came from. Some power some be it being or entitiy started all of it. If not God what would you chose to call it. And if this phenomenon isn't the King of the heaven you reject existing because you came from am ape. Does that mean you shouldn't appreciate what you have been given and respect others who are trying there best to just survive?

I have stumped more than one with that exact paragraph. Somthing else that will catch is the fact that even though you may chose to believe that you are nothing more than a group of cells doing what it must to survive. And that a God does not exsist. Why is spiritual nurturing such a sucess at creating inner peace and harmony? I argued once that we make ourselves believe that is what happiness is because what we are told from childhood on. But in pschycology it is said to be necessary and perscribed to the mentaly ill. Not necessarily Religon, but some sort of spiritual nurturing. Even meditation. Makes you think about the Spirit. Why would the brain need such function?

you might stump uneducated atheist with that but go up to someone who knows their **** and they will look at you funny. Because say god created the big bang, then who created god? Many argue that god is outside of time and space but thats just an excuse. If something cant come from nothing were did god come from?...and if you think we came from apes your retarded...We share a common ancestor but we never evolved from them. You say why is religion so successful at creating peace and harmony for the good it does it does twice the damage...why is religion so successful at starting wars and instigating ****? The religious are ****ing up are school system saying that evolution is not fact and that it should be removed from schools. In science a theory is more than facts it what binds facts together, and if there is a flaw or bad data you can always go back and fix that data...its a never ending learning process....Religion on the other hand says what it says even if its wrong and if there is a mistake they don't go back and say we ****ed up and fix it. It took the catholic church a long ****ing time to except that the earth revolved around the sun not the sun around the earth. It even says in genesis (1:3-5, 14-19) "Let there be light" God creates light and separates light from darkness, and day from night, on the first day. Yet he didn't make the light producing objects (the sun and the stars) until the fourth day (1:14-19). And how could there be "the evening and the morning" on the first day if there was no sun to mark them? They have never fixed that...and its completely wrong!!! lol

K-DOGG
12-06-2006, 06:07 PM
you might stump uneducated atheist with that but go up to someone who knows their **** and they will look at you funny. Because say god created the big bang, then who created god? Many argue that god is outside of time and space but thats just an excuse. If something cant come from nothing were did god come from?...and if you think we came from apes your retarded...We share a common ancestor but we never evolved from them. You say why is religion so successful at creating peace and harmony for the good it does it does twice the damage...why is religion so successful at starting wars and instigating ****? The religious are ****ing up are school system saying that evolution is not fact and that it should be removed from schools. In science a theory is more than facts it what binds facts together, and if there is a flaw or bad data you can always go back and fix that data...its a never ending learning process....Religion on the other hand says what it says even if its wrong and if there is a mistake they don't go back and say we ****ed up and fix it. It took the catholic church a long ****ing time to except that the earth revolved around the sun not the sun around the earth. It even says in genesis (1:3-5, 14-19) "Let there be light" God creates light and separates light from darkness, and day from night, on the first day. Yet he didn't make the light producing objects (the sun and the stars) until the fourth day (1:14-19). And how could there be "the evening and the morning" on the first day if there was no sun to mark them? They have never fixed that...and its completely wrong!!! lol


Just two thoughts.

1. You are confusing religous men with God and religion. Men, who are ignorant and intolerant and grasp onto religion to use it as an ultimatum have only been successful in controlling the weak minded and driving away the strong. God is so much more than they can comprehend, yet they use and have used his/her name to justify ungodly acts. These acts, such as the crusades, were not God inspired, they were man inspired, greed inspired, etc. God never told anyone to invade Jerusalem and cast out the Muslims.....but men who were of high religious rank did and because they "represent God", God is blamed for man's evil deeds....and Christianity is blamed by non-Christians. Unfortunately, bad messangers have tainted the message for quite some time.

2. Just because God, as defined as eternal and omnipresent and beyond time and space is incomprehensible, it does not make it an excuse.....it just is as we see it.

Sin City
12-06-2006, 06:12 PM
:ugh: I was just wondering....if we didn't evolve.... .. then why do men have nipples?? I mean we came before the female counter part...we had no need for them! we weren't gonna breast feed!

Another thing you gotta look at is that we are all decedents from Noah right...because god drowned the rest of the world other than him and his family right... .. .So why are we all different colors?? Bible stories don't add up!

(I'm assuming that a old man could build an ark so big that holds two of each of the worlds animals by himself....and gather them by himself)

Sin City
12-06-2006, 06:15 PM
Just two thoughts.

1. You are confusing religous men with God and religion. Men, who are ignorant and intolerant and grasp onto religion to use it as an ultimatum have only been successful in controlling the weak minded and driving away the strong. God is so much more than they can comprehend, yet they use and have used his/her name to justify ungodly acts. These acts, such as the crusades, were not God inspired, they were man inspired, greed inspired, etc. God never told anyone to invade Jerusalem and cast out the Muslims.....but men who were of high religious rank did and because they "represent God", God is blamed for man's evil deeds....and Christianity is blamed by non-Christians. Unfortunately, bad messangers have tainted the message for quite some time.

2. Just because God, as defined as eternal and omnipresent and beyond time and space is incomprehensible, it does not make it an excuse.....it just is as we see it.
If they were representatives of god and god did infact exist then why didn't he say wooowww woooww hold the hell up! you are not doing this in my name and misrepresenting me! your fired!...He didn't. Did nothing to stop it, and they did it in his name! So that means he is cruel because he knew these people were doing dirty deeds in his name and just sat back and watched it.

K-DOGG
12-06-2006, 06:16 PM
:ugh: I was just wondering....if we didn't evolve.... .. then why do men have nipples?? I mean we came before the female counter part...we had no need for them! we weren't gonna breast feed!

Another thing you gotta look at is that we are all decedents from Noah right...because god drowned the rest of the world other than him and his family right... .. .So why are we all different colors?? Bible stories don't add up!

(I'm assuming that a old man could build an ark so big that holds two of each of the worlds animals by himself....and gather them by himself)

Many make the mistake of interpreting the stories of the Old Testament literally without doing research and are afraid to even explore other possible explanations.

Sin City
12-06-2006, 06:16 PM
Anyway your claiming that there is a god.... so the burden of proof is on you. It is up to you to prove that there is one. Can you??

K-DOGG
12-06-2006, 06:18 PM
Anyway your claiming that there is a god.... so the burden of proof is on you. It is up to you to prove that there is one. Can you??


Why should I "prove" anything?

K-DOGG
12-06-2006, 06:25 PM
If they were representatives of god and god did infact exist then why didn't he say wooowww woooww hold the hell up! you are not doing this in my name and misrepresenting me! your fired!...He didn't. Did nothing to stop it, and they did it in his name! So that means he is cruel because he knew these people were doing dirty deeds in his name and just sat back and watched it.

No, that's not how it works.

Man has free will and will do unto one another what he will. Why would God, who is not of this plain of existance, and who knows that life here is temporary, be concerned with stopping every little skirimish and holocaust that takes place when death is merely a doorway unto real existance?

People want to blame God for every horrible thing that happens. Why? Because man does not want to accept responsibility for his own misdeeds, which, incidentally is a blight upon American life today. No one wants to accept responsibility. "I abuse children because I was abused. I robbed the bank because society won't give me break. I killed him because my mind was warped due to excessive violence on TV, etc".

Men are forever finding excuses for their behavior and passing the buck on to someone else. Why not pass blame along to God? He doesn't speak up to defend himself, afterall.

Free will is just that, the freedom to do bad or do good. If God jumped in everytime someone ****ed up or used his name when they shouldn't have, what would be the point of allowing us to live and make choices at all? We might as well be puppets on a string.

KingDosia
12-06-2006, 06:28 PM
you might stump uneducated atheist with that but go up to someone who knows their **** and they will look at you funny. Because say god created the big bang, then who created god? Many argue that god is outside of time and space but thats just an excuse. If something cant come from nothing were did god come from?...and if you think we came from apes your retarded...We share a common ancestor but we never evolved from them. You say why is religion so successful at creating peace and harmony for the good it does it does twice the damage...why is religion so successful at starting wars and instigating ****? The religious are ****ing up are school system saying that evolution is not fact and that it should be removed from schools. In science a theory is more than facts it what binds facts together, and if there is a flaw or bad data you can always go back and fix that data...its a never ending learning process....Religion on the other hand says what it says even if its wrong and if there is a mistake they don't go back and say we ****ed up and fix it. It took the catholic church a long ****ing time to except that the earth revolved around the sun not the sun around the earth. It even says in genesis (1:3-5, 14-19) "Let there be light" God creates light and separates light from darkness, and day from night, on the first day. Yet he didn't make the light producing objects (the sun and the stars) until the fourth day (1:14-19). And how could there be "the evening and the morning" on the first day if there was no sun to mark them? They have never fixed that...and its completely wrong!!! lol

I do appreciate your point of view. I there is a problem with what I posted and your reply. I didn't refer to a God creating everything my sugestion is an entity or phenomenon. I think the origon of that is beyond our comprehension. No I don't believe we evolved from apes I do believe the great apes are closely related to us, but not directly. I agree with what you mention on that subject. My problem starts here. I never said religon is the sucess. I said nurturing of a spiritual nature. Religon is our doing. A man made organization worshiping what ever we believe to be the creator. Most call it god, Almost all refer it as a being. I am not talking about religon. What I mentioned refers to meditaion, reflection inner peace. Not a book or organization dedicated to the worship of anything.
The bible. In modern society there are two translations the more popular being the King James version. Which ever version you try to translate the fact is this The bible as the title sujests when you translate the word bible is a groiup of letters Based on the testimony of different men at different times.
It spaned hundreds of years. Some of it is believed to be coded instructions for Christians to follow for survival "one of my favorits being revelations. ie. the mark of the beast 666 has been explained as a symbol for the Roman Empire". Hebrews using numerical values to relate to words and letters of that time has sugested many of these encodings to warn christians of attacks and to comunicate in various ways. Back to my point. The bible is a man made piece of literature. Also a guide to living peacefully amongst one another. Certain religons have gone a little overboard with what is written given the fact there is no one translation of what that book or collection of letters is saying. No they don't update or correct the errors, to be a part of that religon you must have bling faith. Knowledge is the forbiden fruit.
What I said and sugest has nothing to to with religon or the bible One can pick all day at the bilbe or defend it. Never to accomplish anything. You either live by it's instructions or don't
What I am saying is you, science, and philosophy can not and probably never will be able to explain why we are here and what created the universe. One calling it god and appreciating the fact this life was given to him is the whole point. Realizing that we all have to get by and to be kind and have "morals" will make it easier for the survival of our species. Which as science and religon both agree is our sole purpose.

Sin City
12-06-2006, 06:28 PM
because people can say there is a god just like you can say i have a invisible elf that lives under my bed and brings me cookies, but you cant prove there is a god just like u cant prove i have an invisible elf..unless there some evidence, and there is no evidence of a god. If you have no evidence and bring it to a court of law and say but im telling you that person did this, they cant acuse a person of doing something you have no proof off. just like you cant say well god built the universe and he made us....were is the evidence??

K-DOGG
12-06-2006, 06:34 PM
because people can say there is a god just like you can say i have a invisible elf that lives under my bed and brings me cookies, but you cant prove there is a god just like u cant prove i have an invisible elf..unless there some evidence, and there is no evidence of a god. If you have no evidence and bring it to a court of law and say but im telling you that person did this, they cant acuse a person of doing something you have no proof off. just like you cant say well god built the universe and he made us....were is the evidence??

It is what I believe. I need no "evidence", per say. I have enough in the wonder of life itself for myself....and other "coincidences" which have occured throughout the course of my life.

If you don't want to believe it, that's fine with me. I'm not trying to sell you anything. If you are so intent on selling God's non-existance, then you show proof. But, you can't either.

The science to prove God's existance or non-existance hasn't been developed yet. You know this and I know this. Asking me to prove God exists is the same as asking me to prove that my logic and philosophy are more accurate than your own. Only time can tell on such a thing.

Also, in a court of Law, if I'm not mistaken, one is innocent until proven guilty, no? You are accusing me of spreading lies of some invisible being's existance. So, since I am the accused, I have the presumption of innocence and the burden of proof is in your lap, for I do not accuse you....I merely disagree.

Sin City
12-06-2006, 06:34 PM
I do appreciate your point of view. I there is a problem with what I posted and your reply. I didn't refer to a God creating everything my sugestion is an entity or phenomenon. I think the origon of that is beyond our comprehension. No I don't believe we evolved from apes I do believe the great apes are closely related to us, but not directly. I agree with what you mention on that subject. My problem starts here. I never said religon is the sucess. I said nurturing of a spiritual nature. Religon is our doing. A man made organization worshiping what ever we believe to be the creator. Most call it god, Almost all refer it as a being. I am not talking about religon. What I mentioned refers to meditaion, reflection inner peace. Not a book or organization dedicated to the worship of anything.
The bible. In modern society there are two translations the more popular being the King James version. Which ever version you try to translate the fact is this The bible as the title sujests when you translate the word bible is a groiup of letters Based on the testimony of different men at different times.
It spaned hundreds of years. Some of it is believed to be coded instructions for Christians to follow for survival "one of my favorits being revelations. ie. the mark of the beast 666 has been explained as a symbol for the Roman Empire". Hebrews using numerical values to relate to words and letters of that time has sugested many of these encodings to warn christians of attacks and to comunicate in various ways. Back to my point. The bible is a man made piece of literature. Also a guide to living peacefully amongst one another. Certain religons have gone a little overboard with what is written given the fact there is no one translation of what that book or collection of letters is saying. No they don't update or correct the errors, to be a part of that religon you must have bling faith. Knowledge is the forbiden fruit.
What I said and sugest has nothing to to with religon or the bible One can pick all day at the bilbe or defend it. Never to accomplish anything. You either live by it's instructions or don't
What I am saying is you, science, and philosophy can not and probably never will be able to explain why we are here and what created the universe. One calling it god and appreciating the fact this life was given to him is the whole point. Realizing that we all have to get by and to be kind and have "morals" will make it easier for the survival of our species. Which as science and religon both agree is our sole purpose.
I feel you and where you are coming from!

KingDosia
12-06-2006, 06:37 PM
because people can say there is a god just like you can say i have a invisible elf that lives under my bed and brings me cookies, but you cant prove there is a god just like u cant prove i have an invisible elf..unless there some evidence, and there is no evidence of a god. If you have no evidence and bring it to a court of law and say but im telling you that person did this, they cant acuse a person of doing something you have no proof off. just like you cant say well god built the universe and he made us....were is the evidence??

You are confusing a "God" with Man made laws and values. We are the creator of the word evidence. The whold theory of a God goes beyond the boundaries of your thoughts. Your ego is not letting you think out side of the box. Not letting you see there is a much larger picture than you and what you know. I for one can admit I do not know. But my "evidence" is everything in this life as far as I have seen comes from somthing. What did I come from?

Sin City
12-06-2006, 06:38 PM
It is what I believe. I need no "evidence", per say. I have enough in the wonder of life itself for myself....and other "coincidences" which have occured throughout the course of my life.

If you don't want to believe it, that's fine with me. I'm not trying to sell you anything. If you are so intent on selling God's non-existance, then you show proof. But, you can't either.

The science to prove God's existance or non-existance hasn't been developed yet. You know this and I know this. Asking me to prove God exists is the same as asking me to prove that my logic and philosophy are more accurate than your own. Only time can tell on such a thing.

Also, in a court of Law, if I'm not mistaken, one is innocent until proven guilty, no? You are accusing me of spreading lies of some invisible being's existance. So, since I am the accused, I have the presumption of innocence and the burden of proof is in your lap, for I do not accuse you....I merely disagree.
you have a point.. im not trying to sell my beliefs though im just saying why i don't believe in a christian god or religion and why religion is bad for society. you can believe in an supreme being but im arguing about god when its referred to Christianity, Islam, Hinduism etc.

K-DOGG
12-06-2006, 06:39 PM
I do appreciate your point of view. I there is a problem with what I posted and your reply. I didn't refer to a God creating everything my sugestion is an entity or phenomenon. I think the origon of that is beyond our comprehension. No I don't believe we evolved from apes I do believe the great apes are closely related to us, but not directly. I agree with what you mention on that subject. My problem starts here. I never said religon is the sucess. I said nurturing of a spiritual nature. Religon is our doing. A man made organization worshiping what ever we believe to be the creator. Most call it god, Almost all refer it as a being. I am not talking about religon. What I mentioned refers to meditaion, reflection inner peace. Not a book or organization dedicated to the worship of anything.
The bible. In modern society there are two translations the more popular being the King James version. Which ever version you try to translate the fact is this The bible as the title sujests when you translate the word bible is a groiup of letters Based on the testimony of different men at different times.
It spaned hundreds of years. Some of it is believed to be coded instructions for Christians to follow for survival "one of my favorits being revelations. ie. the mark of the beast 666 has been explained as a symbol for the Roman Empire". Hebrews using numerical values to relate to words and letters of that time has sugested many of these encodings to warn christians of attacks and to comunicate in various ways. Back to my point. The bible is a man made piece of literature. Also a guide to living peacefully amongst one another. Certain religons have gone a little overboard with what is written given the fact there is no one translation of what that book or collection of letters is saying. No they don't update or correct the errors, to be a part of that religon you must have bling faith. Knowledge is the forbiden fruit.
What I said and sugest has nothing to to with religon or the bible One can pick all day at the bilbe or defend it. Never to accomplish anything. You either live by it's instructions or don't
What I am saying is you, science, and philosophy can not and probably never will be able to explain why we are here and what created the universe. One calling it god and appreciating the fact this life was given to him is the whole point. Realizing that we all have to get by and to be kind and have "morals" will make it easier for the survival of our species. Which as science and religon both agree is our sole purpose.

Beautiful...positvely beautiful. lol!!!

Great post my insightful friend...very nice, indeed.

Sin City
12-06-2006, 06:40 PM
You are confusing a "God" with Man made laws and values. We are the creator of the word evidence. The whold theory of a God goes beyond the boundaries of your thoughts. Your ego is not letting you think out side of the box. Not letting you see there is a much larger picture than you and what you know. I for one can admit I do not know. But my "evidence" is everything in this life as far as I have seen comes from somthing. What did I come from?
I said that a couple of posts back I admit that I don't know the answers to life and never will. But im arguing about gods as in gods that are worshipped and religions who claim they do know the answers to life. those are the people in my opinion are ****ing the world up more than anything else.

KingDosia
12-06-2006, 06:41 PM
It's a beautiful conversation isn't it? Great minds have had it out many thousands of times. Many will after we are long gone. I will have it many times in my life for the simple fact it stimulates a different part of my mind than the crap I usually talk about. The problem is there is no wrong or right answere not yet anyway.

KingDosia
12-06-2006, 06:43 PM
I said that a couple of posts back I admit that I don't know the answers to life and never will. But im arguing about gods as in gods that are worshipped and religions who claim they do know the answers to life. those are the people in my opinion are ****ing the world up more than anything else.

You may be right about that every religon seems to do its fare share of problem causing. The argument should steere toward the morality of religon and religous men. and their hypocracies. We could be here for ages on that one alone.

K-DOGG
12-06-2006, 06:45 PM
you have a point.. im not trying to sell my beliefs though im just saying why i don't believe in a christian god or religion and why religion is bad for society. you can believe in an supreme being but im arguing about god when its referred to Christianity, Islam, Hinduism etc.

Aye, man does have a way of screwing up a pretty good idea, doesn't he. The funny thing is, if you look at all of those religions: Chistianity, Buddism, Hinduism, and Islam and focus on the central message of how we are supposed to treat our fellow man....it's not a bad idea at all. The idea is to love one another and respect one another; and if we all were true to this notion, this one overly simple thought...whether or not it comes from our chanta ishta is irrelevant, it is a good thought....if we all followed it, we would have world peace.

Yet man is so akin to focussing on what makes each of us different and capitalizing on those differences and taking advantages of perceived weaknesses....and presuming for one to be right, the other must be wrong....that we miss the whole point.

Sin City
12-06-2006, 06:46 PM
You may be right about that every religon seems to do its fare share of problem causing. The argument should steere toward the morality of religon and religous men. and their hypocracies. We could be here for ages on that one alone.
I actually am enjoying this...its bette than the salad tossers thread. Yeah it does make you think and it is an interesting topic, I'd rather talk about this than eating someones ass out....although some of the posts in that forum are prettyy funny! lol

Sin City
12-06-2006, 06:47 PM
Aye, man does have a way of screwing up a pretty good idea, doesn't he. The funny thing is, if you look at all of those religions: Chistianity, Buddism, Hinduism, and Islam and focus on the central message of how we are supposed to treat our fellow man....it's not a bad idea at all. The idea is to love one another and respect one another; and if we all were true to this notion, this one overly simple thought...whether or not it comes from our chanta ishta is irrelevant, it is a good thought....if we all followed it, we would have world peace.

Yet man is so akin to focussing on what makes each of us different and capitalizing on those differences and taking advantages of perceived weaknesses....and presuming for one to be right, the other must be wrong....that we miss the whole point.
See but you don't need religion to have those thoughts I'm an atheist and I have them...John Lennon was an atheist and he had them and spoke about them wrote poems and songs...You don't need religion for those ideas of peace.

KingDosia
12-06-2006, 06:55 PM
See but you don't need religion to have those thoughts I'm an atheist and I have them...John Lennon was an atheist and he had them and spoke about them wrote poems and songs...You don't need religion for those ideas of peace.

So what do you consider an Athiest to be? One who denounces religon, or One who denounces God?
Most who I have spoken to do as you have in the thread and bounce back and forth from the bible and the "God" theory. Almost sounding as if they don't know what not to believe, they just know not to believe. Kind of like what a religous man is supposed to do he is a member of a group whom is either told to or choses to at all costs believe. That he is right. His reason for being on this earth is correct.

K-DOGG
12-06-2006, 06:58 PM
See but you don't need religion to have those thoughts I'm an atheist and I have them...John Lennon was an atheist and he had them and spoke about them wrote poems and songs...You don't need religion for those ideas of peace.

Here's the funny thing, though. I beleive those thoughts in you and in Lennon, come from God, whether you believe in such an entity or not is irrelevant. To me, God is in all of us. There is no man on a throne with a sceptor in his hand; that's hogwash and aliteration to give an understandable face to an incomprehensible force.

The part of us that longs to love and longs to understand is what connects us, for we are all one. We are all the same underneath this skin suit...God is in and is part of each and every one of us, for that is where our goodness comes from: our eternal selves.

Everything else in our psyche that is physical and environmentally and psychologically based is our burden. In life we have two sides, one mortal, one immortal. The mortal is subject to everything primal....essentially fear. The immortal side has no fear and connnects us all; we are all "cells in this one big organism" and the organism thrives and grows and is healthy when we all do our job, which is radiate the eternal into the mortal: spread the love. When we allow the influences of this world to cultivate our thinking and our actions, we poison the whole.


That's the best way I know how to describe what I think is going on.


As far as the organized religions are concerned, surely you have run across people who are not as intelligent as yourself. Not everyone has the mental capacity to understand these simple truths of how to live life...loving neighbors, etc. Well, they may undestand it; but are usually so caught up in their own universe, their own world of troubles and thoughts and needs, that they miss the big picture. This is why we need organized religion. It's not for everyone and there are those who abuse it and use it improperly; but there are also those souls who need it to help them remember the greater good, our greater purpose in life....it acts as a battery charger and gives them the strength to face another day in this cold cruel world.

That's not so bad, is it?

fraidycat
12-06-2006, 07:08 PM
What I know is, when I act as if there are permanent spiritual consequences for my behavior, my life is better. And the lives of those around me are better.

Whenever I follow Jesus Christ's example, my life gets better. And the lives of those around me gets better.

When I act as if there is a God who will judge me for the way I spend my life, my life is better. And the lives of those around me are better.

Personally, I believe strongly in God and in the love and lessons of Jesus Christ. I am not a born-again; hell, I'm not even conservative by any measurable political standard. I do not believe you will go to hell for using dirty words or smoking pot or jerking off to **** or whatever other "sins" society has deemed evil. I do believe that challenges are placed before us -- chief among them is our unique ability to **** each other over for personal gain. I believe that we will be -- and should be -- judged by our actions. I've lived a life not believing in God, and lived a life believing strongly in God, and I have found that a life believing strongly in the power and love of an omniscient deity who will hold you to account -- pick a God; I don't care -- is a far better life.

Your mileage may vary.

Ta Khent
12-06-2006, 07:10 PM
Aye, man does have a way of screwing up a pretty good idea, doesn't he. The funny thing is, if you look at all of those religions: Chistianity, Buddism, Hinduism, and Islam and focus on the central message of how we are supposed to treat our fellow man....it's not a bad idea at all. The idea is to love one another and respect one another; and if we all were true to this notion, this one overly simple thought...whether or not it comes from our chanta ishta is irrelevant, it is a good thought....if we all followed it, we would have world peace.

Yet man is so akin to focussing on what makes each of us different and capitalizing on those differences and taking advantages of perceived weaknesses....and presuming for one to be right, the other must be wrong....that we miss the whole point.


Excellent post! I couldn't agree more. There are some who read the bible and forget themselves in the process. If you love Jesus so much, then worship his teachings and not his body. How can a man change if he never receives the lesson? Basically, throw away the message and worship the messenger...No Benefit. A book can only assist you to change but, until a man looks within himself and acknowledges the GOD within him he will be forever lost.

The Noose
12-06-2006, 07:11 PM
Juicey posts.

I have much reading to do.

Sin City
12-06-2006, 07:14 PM
So what do you consider an Athiest to be? One who denounces religon, or One who denounces God?
Most who I have spoken to do as you have in the thread and bounce back and forth from the bible and the "God" theory. Almost sounding as if they don't know what not to believe, they just know not to believe. Kind of like what a religous man is supposed to do he is a member of a group whom is either told to or choses to at all costs believe. That he is right. His reason for being on this earth is correct.
I don't believe in religion or its doctrine, I don't believe in a supreme being, I would rather think about life and the existince of life rationaly and try to find answers for the questions of life through nature and not by superstition, I believe in science and finding the answer to a problem by testing it, or by trial and error until you finally come to the right conclusion. I believe in facts and evidence and things that can be proven, You can't test a god or prove that theres is one....because he is invisible, doesn't talk to you, and does not help you...I don't know what his purpose is if there is infact a god but I do know that the universe would not have needed a god to create itself although it could be that infact a god did create it. But until there is evidence of him/her or it I don't believe in whatever god is because you can't credit or discredit god just like u can't discredit the flying spaghetti monster, or the leprachuan or unicorns. I don't know what comes after death there for when I die I have seen others die and believe my body will rott in the ground just like the others. I'm not going to asume there is a heaven or hell because no one has ever made it to the other side and came back to tell about it. Heaven and Hell don't seem possible to me because there is no evidence of a soul or a way to track it. And if there was a soul where would it go after living? Is heaven a vacation spot in another demention?? I dunno therefore I choose to not trouble my mind with such questions...I will simply live my life and do what I want and feal is right...not because a god told me but because I felt it was the right thing to do. basically I'm an athiest...one who thinks at life rationaly and doesn't believe in a god!

K-DOGG
12-06-2006, 07:15 PM
Excellent post! I couldn't agree more. There are some who read the bible and forget themselves in the process. If you love Jesus so much, then worship his teachings and not his body. How can a man change if he never receives the lesson? Basically, throw away the message and worship the messenger...No Benefit. A book can only assist you to change but, until a man looks within himself and acknowledges the GOD within him he will be forever lost.

Amen, Brother Merovingian. lol!!

Amen. ;)

Sin City
12-06-2006, 07:19 PM
Here's the funny thing, though. I beleive those thoughts in you and in Lennon, come from God, whether you believe in such an entity or not is irrelevant. To me, God is in all of us. There is no man on a throne with a sceptor in his hand; that's hogwash and aliteration to give an understandable face to an incomprehensible force.

The part of us that longs to love and longs to understand is what connects us, for we are all one. We are all the same underneath this skin suit...God is in and is part of each and every one of us, for that is where our goodness comes from: our eternal selves.

Everything else in our psyche that is physical and environmentally and psychologically based is our burden. In life we have two sides, one mortal, one immortal. The mortal is subject to everything primal....essentially fear. The immortal side has no fear and connnects us all; we are all "cells in this one big organism" and the organism thrives and grows and is healthy when we all do our job, which is radiate the eternal into the mortal: spread the love. When we allow the influences of this world to cultivate our thinking and our actions, we poison the whole.


That's the best way I know how to describe what I think is going on.


As far as the organized religions are concerned, surely you have run across people who are not as intelligent as yourself. Not everyone has the mental capacity to understand these simple truths of how to live life...loving neighbors, etc. Well, they may undestand it; but are usually so caught up in their own universe, their own world of troubles and thoughts and needs, that they miss the big picture. This is why we need organized religion. It's not for everyone and there are those who abuse it and use it improperly; but there are also those souls who need it to help them remember the greater good, our greater purpose in life....it acts as a battery charger and gives them the strength to face another day in this cold cruel world.

That's not so bad, is it?
Main Entry: 1god
Pronunciation: 'g***228;d also 'god
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Old English; akin to Old High German got god
1 capitalized : the supreme or ultimate reality: as a : the Being perfect in power, wisdom, and goodness who is worshipped as creator and ruler of the universe b Christian Science : the incorporeal divine Principle ruling over all as eternal Spirit : infinite Mind
2 : a being or object believed to have more than natural attributes and powers and to require human worship; specifically : one controlling a particular aspect or part of reality
3 : a person or thing of supreme value
4 : a powerful ruler

Thats the marriam-websters defenition of god. what you described is nothing like what the dictionary has in it. Every person has there own defenition of god, speak to different people and they will give you there own defenition. Not one single person has the same view of god.... So the reality is...No one knows....and I rather just leave it at that, and wait till that day comes and find out. wether you believe or dont.

Sin City
12-06-2006, 07:21 PM
What I know is, when I act as if there are permanent spiritual consequences for my behavior, my life is better. And the lives of those around me are better.

Whenever I follow Jesus Christ's example, my life gets better. And the lives of those around me gets better.

When I act as if there is a God who will judge me for the way I spend my life, my life is better. And the lives of those around me are better.

Personally, I believe strongly in God and in the love and lessons of Jesus Christ. I am not a born-again; hell, I'm not even conservative by any measurable political standard. I do not believe you will go to hell for using dirty words or smoking pot or jerking off to **** or whatever other "sins" society has deemed evil. I do believe that challenges are placed before us -- chief among them is our unique ability to **** each other over for personal gain. I believe that we will be -- and should be -- judged by our actions. I've lived a life not believing in God, and lived a life believing strongly in God, and I have found that a life believing strongly in the power and love of an omniscient deity who will hold you to account -- pick a God; I don't care -- is a far better life.

Your mileage may vary.
Different strokes for different folks. I live my life better when I don't have god looking down on me and judging me. I guess it all depends on the person.

rageinme
12-06-2006, 07:34 PM
Amen, Brother Merovingian. lol!!

Amen. ;)

lord will not force anyone to believe in him.

Romans 14:11 -it is written surely as I live, says the lord every knee will bow before me; every tongue confess to god

KingDosia
12-06-2006, 07:39 PM
To view life as a logical scientificly outlined phenomenon seems in some ways a good way to dismiss your self from being accountable for your actions. Meaning there is no judgement for what I do so lets do what ever I want.
Some may have the capability to understand the importance of living in harmony with his fellow man, But should every super inflated ego believe the same theory, imagine the chaos.

KingDosia
12-06-2006, 07:40 PM
lord will not force anyone to believe in him.

Romans 14:11 -it is written surely as I live, says the lord every knee will bow before me; every tongue confess to god

If one recited Shakespeer would you bow your head and do as that narator has instructed?

rageinme
12-06-2006, 07:43 PM
How do you know that it was It who did it?

the lord change my life, I just gave him a change and he proofed him self to me

Sin City
12-06-2006, 07:45 PM
the lord change my life, I just gave him a change and he proofed him self to me
dude the bible also says you should kill gays....do u believe that too??

KingDosia
12-06-2006, 07:49 PM
the lord change my life, I just gave him a change and he proofed him self to me

Do you truly believe in god follow the teachings of Christ or has that been an effective scapegoat for feeling ****ty about things you have done in the past?

rageinme
12-06-2006, 07:50 PM
If one recited Shakespeer would you bow your head and do as that narator has instructed?

Hebrews4:12 - the word of god is full of living power.It is sharper than the sharpest knife,cutting deep into our innermost thoughts and desires.it exposes us for what we really are.

Ta Khent
12-06-2006, 07:51 PM
the lord change my life, I just gave him a change and he proofed him self to me


So, how did it prove itself to you? Did you see it? What did it look like? What did it say? I would love to know.

rageinme
12-06-2006, 08:01 PM
So, how did it prove itself to you? Did you see it? What did it look like? What did it say? I would love to know.

I was again'st church, one day I went to church just for my sister,it was a church play
after it was done I felt like something was tagging in side of me ,sence then I gave it a try.I have not been the same sence.He took me away from gangbanging,drugs,figthing you name it. trust me I would not be wasting my time if god was fake.

Ta Khent
12-06-2006, 08:07 PM
I was again'st church, one day I went to church just for my sister,it was a church play
after it was done I felt like something was tagging in side of me ,sence then I gave it a try.I have not been the same sence.He took me away from gangbanging,drugs,figthing you name it. trust me I would not be wasting my time if god was fake.

So basically, you perceived it to be God because that was the only explanation you could come up with at that particular time. That's doesn't necessarily make it real.

rageinme
12-06-2006, 08:14 PM
Do you truly believe in god follow the teachings of Christ or has that been an effective scapegoat for feeling ****ty about things you have done in the past?

Proverbs 22:13

Sin City
12-06-2006, 08:15 PM
I was again'st church, one day I went to church just for my sister,it was a church play
after it was done I felt like something was tagging in side of me ,sence then I gave it a try.I have not been the same sence.He took me away from gangbanging,drugs,figthing you name it. trust me I would not be wasting my time if god was fake.
If you were in a gang...you probably felt like you wanted to belong be a part of something...you probably saw that same feeling of belonging to something at church. And people who take drugs usually have a weak will and can be manipulated easily... I bet during that play they brought up hell or something like that witch scared the hell out of you and manipulated you into going...because if you dont go to church you go to hell right?? Thats how they used to get my allowance money into the offering. Religion...its a great business!

rageinme
12-06-2006, 08:23 PM
So basically, you perceived it to be God because that was the only explanation you could come up with at that particular time. That's doesn't necessarily make it real.

I know is real by praying to him,I know what am here for now.
Chronicles 16:9

rageinme
12-06-2006, 08:27 PM
If you were in a gang...you probably felt like you wanted to belong be a part of something...you probably saw that same feeling of belonging to something at church. And people who take drugs usually have a weak will and can be manipulated easily... I bet during that play they brought up hell or something like that witch scared the hell out of you and manipulated you into going...because if you dont go to church you go to hell right?? Thats how they used to get my allowance money into the offering. Religion...its a great business!

the only way your gonna understand if you try it for you.nobody but you.

Sin City
12-06-2006, 08:32 PM
how do you post video on the forum?? is it disabled in here??

rageinme
12-06-2006, 08:39 PM
1 samuel 16:7
Deuteronomy 11:16
Psalm 35:18

Ta Khent
12-06-2006, 08:44 PM
I know is real by praying to him,I know what am here for now.
Chronicles 16:9


I commend you for turning your life around. Most don't realize it until it's too late. However, I must say that there's so much that you don't know about the origins of the bible or religion for that matter.

Sin City
12-06-2006, 08:50 PM
1 samuel 16:7
Deuteronomy 11:16
Psalm 35:18
you should really watch this video:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7498241687701731240&q=the+god+who+wasn%27t+there&hl=en

rageinme
12-07-2006, 12:36 AM
you should really watch this video:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7498241687701731240&q=the+god+who+wasn%27t+there&hl=en

my computer would let me.

rageinme
12-07-2006, 12:40 AM
I commend you for turning your life around. Most don't realize it until it's too late. However, I must say that there's so much that you don't know about the origins of the bible or religion for that matter.

it's not religion it's relationchip.
what do you know about the bible?

rageinme
12-07-2006, 12:42 AM
you should really watch this video:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7498241687701731240&q=the+god+who+wasn%27t+there&hl=en

what was the video about?

Sin City
12-07-2006, 01:08 AM
what was the video about?
the origins of christianity.

rageinme
12-07-2006, 01:17 AM
the origins of christianity.

CAN YOU E-MAIL SOME INFO

Ta Khent
12-07-2006, 06:11 PM
it's not religion it's relationchip.
what do you know about the bible?


I know that the bible is not absolute truth. I know that the writers of the bible used ancient stories (told before) along with their experiences and put together a collection of stories to inspire the reader.

The Noose
12-07-2006, 06:38 PM
CAN YOU E-MAIL SOME INFO

http://www.truthbeknown.com/origins.htm

I started reading this stuff ages ago. Didnt get very far.
But it is quite interesting reading on the origins of Christianity.

Im not sure how subjective it is, but its worth a look.

Sin City
12-07-2006, 07:52 PM
I know that the bible is not absolute truth. I know that the writers of the bible used ancient stories (told before) along with their experiences and put together a collection of stories to inspire the reader.
buddha was my home dawg!

KingDosia
12-08-2006, 02:21 PM
buddha was my home dawg!

I think that if one compiled the teachings of christ and Buddha he would be as much a model citizen as one could be. imo

K-DOGG
12-08-2006, 02:25 PM
I think that if one compiled the teachings of christ and Buddha he would be as much a model citizen as one could be. imo


I'll second that. :)

Sin City
12-08-2006, 04:15 PM
I'll second that. :)
yup supposedly Christ said a lot of great things like things like "do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn man against his father, a daughter against her mother...etc." Mathew 10:34-35 and other great things like that :D

At least Buddha was a real person.... :D

Sin City
12-08-2006, 04:45 PM
I'll second that. :)


Dude I don't get it..First you say that the stories of the old testament are metaphores and stories to help you understand and live a better life but then you second what kingdosia said about following the teachings of Christ because if we did we would all be model citizens??? Jesus taught that you should follow the laws of the old testament.. Some of the laws include stoning your kids to death if they are disobedient! And Jesus fully believes the stories of the old testament as fact...He says so in the bible. The stories about Noah, the story about the guy being stuck in the mouth of a fish..etc. So If we follow the teachings of Christ it means that the stories of the old testament are fact and we should obey the laws of god and what he said in the old testament such as that we should kill any man who lie with man and we should stone children who misbehave and don't listen to their parents....??? Doesn't make too much sence to me!

KingDosia
12-08-2006, 06:49 PM
yup supposedly Christ said a lot of great things like things like "do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn man against his father, a daughter against her mother...etc." Mathew 10:34-35 and other great things like that :D

At least Buddha was a real person.... :D

I think Christ was a real person I believe there may have been a Jewish Carpenter who tried to spread the word of god and was certainly persecuted for it. There are a lot of things in the bible I don't quite believe. I also think many things have been misinterpreted. Or False translated. I refer to the overall love one another attitude that Christ preached. Along With the Wisdom of Buddha. Which may create a very model citizen. Maybe "model" is the wrong word to use. One may have a completely different view of "model" than the next guy. I should say One with very positive morals and standards.

Sin City
12-08-2006, 07:10 PM
Jesus was a myth derived from other pagan gods at the time, he is not the first god to be born of a virgin birth in a manger, be visited by wise men die on a cross or tree and rise from the dead on the third day. Even in the early days of christianity they had problems explaining his to pagans who believed in Osiris, Dyonisis, Mythras etc. because the stories were very similar so the excuse they came up with was that the devil knew Jesus was gonna be born and counter fitted other gods before his birth to take away his credibility. They also had a hard time explaining when he was born and when he died because some said he had died a century before and other said it was a recent event..If it was such a recent event why was there so much controversy even back then.. Also theres no historical documentation or documents or evidence to suggest this man was alive, He never even wrote a gospel. So your taking anthers word for it that he was alive when in fact they had never in fact met a Jesus. Mark himself said if Jesus would have been born on this earth he would not have been a priest. He saw Jesus supposedly in a dream and was writing a gospel to inspire his people he wasn't wrighting history the only things he mentions in his gospels are the Crusifixion and resurrection of Christ and the story of the days before that witch he didn't even think had happened on this earth but in a mythical realm of some sort.

K-DOGG
12-08-2006, 07:25 PM
Jesus was a myth derived from other pagan gods at the time, he is not the first god to be born of a virgin birth in a manger, be visited by wise men die on a cross or tree and rise from the dead on the third day. Even in the early days of christianity they had problems explaining his to pagans who believed in Osiris, Dyonisis, Mythras etc. because the stories were very similar so the excuse they came up with was that the devil knew Jesus was gonna be born and counter fitted other gods before his birth to take away his credibility. They also had a hard time explaining when he was born and when he died because some said he had died a century before and other said it was a recent event..If it was such a recent event why was there so much controversy even back then.. Also theres no historical documentation or documents or evidence to suggest this man was alive, He never even wrote a gospel. So your taking anthers word for it that he was alive when in fact they had never in fact met a Jesus. Mark himself said if Jesus would have been born on this earth he would not have been a priest. He saw Jesus supposedly in a dream and was writing a gospel to inspire his people he wasn't wrighting history the only things he mentions in his gospels are the Crusifixion and resurrection of Christ and the story of the days before that witch he didn't even think had happened on this earth but in a mythical realm of some sort.

1. Jesus was real....I cited antiquated, non-biblical sources earlier if you want to check for yourself.

2. Circumstancial evidence of the spread of his teaching following his death confirm something made an impact. Inspiration must come from somewhere.

3. In the scripture from Matthew that you cited, Jesus was talking about you and me. We disagree with his existance and teachings. And wars have been fought over teh belief in this man's righteousness as you yourself pointed out in an earlier post when you asked me why didn't God tell them they were misinterpreting him. So, I guess you could say, if nothing else, Jesus was indeed a prophet. :D


You're gonna have to do better than that. ;)

All of this I have hear many times before; it is not a new arguement you bring to the table. As far as how I agree with what kingdosia said when I believe in Jesus, it is not so difficult. Both spoke of love and loving your fellow man and doing right by him and yourself.

And...before you start going off about Jesus believing in the Old Testament ast truth, you must remember first and foremost, he was a communicator and he knew to whom he was communicating and what stories they new that he could use as examples. The way you teach is to take something known and show something unknown about it, thus broadening the scope of perception. As far as "stoning people is concerned", I would think his saving of the adultress from the mob would be self-explanatory; but if you've never heard the words, "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone."?, then I'd reread the scriptures.

Maybe if you weren't so busy looking for mistakes in the words, you might learn something from them. ;)

Sin City
12-08-2006, 07:35 PM
1. Jesus was real....I cited antiquated, non-biblical sources earlier if you want to check for yourself.

2. Circumstancial evidence of the spread of his teaching following his death confirm something made an impact. Inspiration must come from somewhere.

3. In the scripture from Matthew that you cited, Jesus was talking about you and me. We disagree with his existance and teachings. And wars have been fought over teh belief in this man's righteousness as you yourself pointed out in an earlier post when you asked me why didn't God tell them they were misinterpreting him. So, I guess you could say, if nothing else, Jesus was indeed a prophet. :D


You're gonna have to do better than that. ;)

All of this I have hear many times before; it is not a new arguement you bring to the table. As far as how I agree with what kingdosia said when I believe in Jesus, it is not so difficult. Both spoke of love and loving your fellow man and doing right by him and yourself.

And...before you start going off about Jesus believing in the Old Testament ast truth, you must remember first and foremost, he was a communicator and he knew to whom he was communicating and what stories they new that he could use as examples. The way you teach is to take something known and show something unknown about it, thus broadening the scope of perception. As far as "stoning people is concerned", I would think his saving of the adultress from the mob would be self-explanatory; but if you've never heard the words, "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone."?, then I'd reread the scriptures.

Maybe if you weren't so busy looking for mistakes in the words, you might learn something from them. ;)
you still havent explaines why theres dozens and dozens of gods that came befor Jesus with the same story.. Muhhamed inspired many too. Does that mean he is right?? Explain pagan and Hindu god suxh as Krishna having almost the same story as Jesus hundreds of years befor him.

K-DOGG
12-08-2006, 07:39 PM
you still havent explaines why theres dozens and dozens of gods that came befor Jesus with the same story.. Muhhamed inspired many too. Does that mean he is right?? Explain pagan and Hindu god suxh as Krishna having almost the same story as Jesus hundreds of years befor him.


Why? I can't explain stonehenge; but I know it's there. I can't explain who built the pyramids; but I can see them. I can't explain what happend in the New Mexican desert in 1951; but something did.

I've got the words attributed to him; and find them full of wisdom and righteousness. If his name with suxh or Isis or Zeus it would all be the same.

The words are the truth; and the truth is in the Word. Everything else is unimportant. I have eyes to see, ears to hear, and a brain to think.

Sin City
12-08-2006, 07:47 PM
Why? I can't explain stonehenge; but I know it's there. I can't explain who built the pyramids; but I can see them. I can't explain what happend in the New Mexican desert in 1951; but something did.

I've got the words attributed to him; and find them full of wisdom and righteousness. If his name with suxh or Isis or Zeus it would all be the same.

The words are the truth; and the truth is in the Word. Everything else is unimportant. I have eyes to see, ears to hear, and a brain to think.
I must admit I'm not on your level of argument yet because I am 18 and don't have as many years as you do. For a fair discussion look up Infidel Guy he hosts a show every Friday I believe and you can go in the chat room and debate with him. I feel I have the lower hand in the argument because I am debating with two middle aged men. I give up lol. you won this battle. I'm still open to the idea of a god, I still don't believe in one. But I have yet to come across a person that would convince me that in fact a supreme being does exist.

K-DOGG
12-08-2006, 07:57 PM
I must admit I'm not on your level of argument yet because I am 18 and don't have as many years as you do. For a fair discussion look up Infidel Guy he hosts a show every Friday I believe and you can go in the chat room and debate with him. I feel I have the lower hand in the argument because I am debating with two middle aged men. I give up lol. you won this battle. I'm still open to the idea of a god, I still don't believe in one. But I have yet to come across a person that would convince me that in fact a supreme being does exist.

Well, first of all, you carry yourself very well for someone with just 18 years under his belt, so I commend you.

I actually am familiar with many of the stories of other dieties that came before Christ; and am mystified by all of the similarities.

I also have several amateur hypothesies on all of it...that would honestly sound like something out of a science-fiction novel; but since I have no proof and telling them might only serve to confuse things, I'll keep them to myself for now. Just suffice it to say, that I don't believe in coincidences and I believe we have been here for a very, very, very long time and have a far more complex history than our books paint for us. We, I feel are, or are the product, or decendants of an ancient race.....and whether or not this is the only dimension we exist in is up for grabs.

As to your "giving up"...never do it. Never stop questioning. I haven't. ;)

rageinme
12-08-2006, 08:10 PM
Romans11:36 -Everything comes from him;
everything exists by his power and is intended for his
glory.

rageinme
12-08-2006, 08:36 PM
Nothing in all creation will ever be able to separate us from the love of god that is revealed in christ jesus our lord.ROMANS 8:39

KingDosia
12-09-2006, 04:37 PM
Jesus was a myth derived from other pagan gods at the time, he is not the first god to be born of a virgin birth in a manger, be visited by wise men die on a cross or tree and rise from the dead on the third day. Even in the early days of christianity they had problems explaining his to pagans who believed in Osiris, Dyonisis, Mythras etc. because the stories were very similar so the excuse they came up with was that the devil knew Jesus was gonna be born and counter fitted other gods before his birth to take away his credibility. They also had a hard time explaining when he was born and when he died because some said he had died a century before and other said it was a recent event..If it was such a recent event why was there so much controversy even back then.. Also theres no historical documentation or documents or evidence to suggest this man was alive, He never even wrote a gospel. So your taking anthers word for it that he was alive when in fact they had never in fact met a Jesus. Mark himself said if Jesus would have been born on this earth he would not have been a priest. He saw Jesus supposedly in a dream and was writing a gospel to inspire his people he wasn't wrighting history the only things he mentions in his gospels are the Crusifixion and resurrection of Christ and the story of the days before that witch he didn't even think had happened on this earth but in a mythical realm of some sort.

You are arguing about a story that is centuries old and has been translated and re translated, more than likely very diluted. Dates got mixed up. There have been theories that at least a few of these Pagan gods born of a virgin mother are one and the same as Christ. Not sure I believe that theory. I do believe that there was a man many years ago who had an amazing insight as to what it takes for this species to continue. And I do believe his teachings are what Christianity has been based on. You have to consider that many of these stories were passed from generation to generation before they were actually written in the bible. Though the book may lose some credibility if you pick at it enough the message should stand that even if there is no evidence to this story this is the right way "or the easiest way" to live if everybody should share these priciples. That I can not argue with. The timelines and realness of the stories I'd imagine you may have a very good argument against. Nobody can prove you wrong, yet you can't really prove yourself 100% right and I believe you know it wether you chose to admit it or not. .
You have a lot of circumstancial evidence which in the courts you have mentioned earlier wouldn't stand.

KingDosia
12-09-2006, 04:42 PM
Nothing in all creation will ever be able to separate us from the love of god that is revealed in christ jesus our lord.ROMANS 8:39

rageinme I appreciate your input, but it really is mute in this convo. You are not helping any cause here by reciting the bible. A true messanger of God would have a better way to communicate to people that message. Like a good serman from a good preacher. just hollering out scriptures is like talking to a wall. They mean very different things to everybody. Not all of them will touch me the way they do you. If you want to do right by spreading that word learn to give meaning to those scriptures that would capture the attention of people listening make them think. I can't stand people that just call out scriptures like it holds the same value to all . WE ARE ALL DIFFERENT

Ta Khent
12-09-2006, 05:29 PM
Son of God=Sun of God.

The sun "dies" for three days on December 22nd, the winter solstice, when it stops in its movement south, to be born again or resurrected on December 25th, when it resumes its movement north.
In some areas, the calendar originally began in the constellation of Virgo, and the sun would therefore be "born of a Virgin."
The sun is the "Light of the World."
The sun "cometh on clouds, and every eye shall see him."
The sun rising in the morning is the "Savior of mankind."
The sun wears a corona, "crown of thorns" or halo.
The sun "walks on water."
The sun's "followers," "helpers" or "disciples" are the 12 months and the 12 signs of the zodiac or constellations, through which the sun must pass.
The sun at 12 noon is in the house or temple of the "Most High"; thus, "he" begins "his Father's work" at "age" 12.
The sun enters into each sign of the zodiac at 30***176;; hence, the "Sun of God" begins his ministry at "age" 30.
The sun is hung on a cross or "crucified," which represents its passing through the equinoxes, the vernal equinox being Easter, at which time it is then resurrected.

Sol Invictus - Cult of the Ever Rising Sun


This is no coincidence people.

rageinme
12-09-2006, 07:35 PM
rageinme I appreciate your input, but it really is mute in this convo. You are not helping any cause here by reciting the bible. A true messanger of God would have a better way to communicate to people that message. Like a good serman from a good preacher. just hollering out scriptures is like talking to a wall. They mean very different things to everybody. Not all of them will touch me the way they do you. If you want to do right by spreading that word learn to give meaning to those scriptures that would capture the attention of people listening make them think. I can't stand people that just call out scriptures like it holds the same value to all . WE ARE ALL DIFFERENT

All the scriptures I type,is because I feel led to.Am not just calling out scripturs the way you say I am.God works in different ways,if I feel led to by god I will do it,even if people hate me.

KingDosia
12-09-2006, 08:37 PM
All the scriptures I type,is because I feel led to.Am not just calling out scripturs the way you say I am.God works in different ways,if I feel led to by god I will do it,even if people hate me.

This is the negative of a beautiful thing. You wanna make a difference. Study life and the bible find a way to make you point to modern society. Want people to listen learn how to speak to them. To most that is all you are doing is calling out scriptures. A waste of time you don't seem to believe in them any more than the people you are talking to therefore just talking. Wasting you breath.

K-DOGG
12-10-2006, 08:28 AM
Son of God=Sun of God.

The sun "dies" for three days on December 22nd, the winter solstice, when it stops in its movement south, to be born again or resurrected on December 25th, when it resumes its movement north.
In some areas, the calendar originally began in the constellation of Virgo, and the sun would therefore be "born of a Virgin."
The sun is the "Light of the World."
The sun "cometh on clouds, and every eye shall see him."
The sun rising in the morning is the "Savior of mankind."
The sun wears a corona, "crown of thorns" or halo.
The sun "walks on water."
The sun's "followers," "helpers" or "disciples" are the 12 months and the 12 signs of the zodiac or constellations, through which the sun must pass.
The sun at 12 noon is in the house or temple of the "Most High"; thus, "he" begins "his Father's work" at "age" 12.
The sun enters into each sign of the zodiac at 30***176;; hence, the "Sun of God" begins his ministry at "age" 30.
The sun is hung on a cross or "crucified," which represents its passing through the equinoxes, the vernal equinox being Easter, at which time it is then resurrected.

Sol Invictus - Cult of the Ever Rising Sun


This is no coincidence people.

As I've often said, I do not believe in coincidences, either my friend; and I don't think any of this that you've painstakingly listed is a coincidence, though, admittedly, for probably different reasons than yourself.

Of course it is common knowledge that the "official birthday" of Jesus was changed to coincide with a pagan ritual near the winter solstace; his actual birthday was probably in September....I believe, though I'd have to check. It is also common knowledge that the early church made many concessions to thier dogma for the explicit purpose of winning over new converts, which has probably done more damage to the credence of the religion as a whole in the long run by sowing seeds of confusion.

I have actually given thought to some of what you listed, specifically the direct numerical coralation between the number of disciples and zodiac signs and other such phenomenon; but confess I never was fully aware of the other striking similarities you drew out. Thank you for an enlightening post. You must share some of your reading material as I am overly intrigued in this sort of thing.

If I were to take a shot in the dark, though, I would think that this is an example of some "facts" of the original gospel being enhanced or even fabricated to win over converts from more ancient religions, known primarily in a general sweeping fashion as paganism today....as I stated earlier.

The list that you provided, I believe, is evidence of the original organized church tampering with the facts for the sole purpose of having the actual life of Jesus coincide with what "would-be" converts already believed, so as to make Jesus "more appealing" to them.

Shame, really, for the words of the man were strong enough on their own before such medalling with his "history".

Thank you again for your contribution my friend. You never disapoint. :)

The Noose
12-10-2006, 12:04 PM
All the scriptures I type,is because I feel led to.Am not just calling out scripturs the way you say I am.God works in different ways,if I feel led to by god I will do it,even if people hate me.

No one hates u. But what Kingdosia said is right. When anyone just starts quoting from the bible, to me it means very little. It is not your words, and those passages can be interpereted by me in a very different way.
I may totally misunderstand what your intent is.

K-DOGG
12-10-2006, 12:11 PM
All the scriptures I type,is because I feel led to.Am not just calling out scripturs the way you say I am.God works in different ways,if I feel led to by god I will do it,even if people hate me.

I don't doubt that, however, if you truly want to get scross the message you feel compelled to share, you might want to try interpreting those scriptures as you are inspired and puttnig down what you think it means in relation to whatever question you are responding to.

rageinme
12-11-2006, 12:35 AM
This is the negative of a beautiful thing. You wanna make a difference. Study life and the bible find a way to make you point to modern society. Want people to listen learn how to speak to them. To most that is all you are doing is calling out scriptures. A waste of time you don't seem to believe in them any more than the people you are talking to therefore just talking. Wasting you breath.

every word I say I believe,I know am not wasting my time bro.
every scripture/verse I say, Is said for a reason,god knows what he is doing.
when jesus was beaten and spit on for us he did'nt want to do it, he was scared
but he did it cause he love's us .people told him he was wasting his time and that he was not the son of god.but he still went around spreading the word

Sin City
12-11-2006, 01:00 AM
Suppose there is a god. What is our purpose? Was god really stoned one day and wanted to play? Say in fact he did make us, He probably made others too. To think that we are soo special to have a being watching us 24/7 is pretty retarded in my book.. Say the billions of people on this earth he has to watch every single one of us, plus billions of billions of other people in other planets... Pretty hard ****ing job. Doesn't seem possible to me.. Have you ever played command and Conquer or Civilization. It must be like that for god...You go over here to check on this fleet the other one is being attacked. For one (thing/person/whatever god is) to be at all places at the same time he must have a lot of monitors hooked up or something but even then you can't still keep track of everybody. And say you do live forever when you die...Heaven and hell must be packed by now. Like China only everywhere. Doesn't make since to have an after life because then what are you gonna do if you run out of space?? I think if there was a god...Dude probably forgot about us already!

The Noose
12-11-2006, 07:26 AM
Suppose there is a god. What is our purpose? Was god really stoned one day and wanted to play? Say in fact he did make us, He probably made others too. To think that we are soo special to have a being watching us 24/7 is pretty retarded in my book.. Say the billions of people on this earth he has to watch every single one of us, plus billions of billions of other people in other planets... Pretty hard ****ing job. Doesn't seem possible to me.. Have you ever played command and Conquer or Civilization. It must be like that for god...You go over here to check on this fleet the other one is being attacked. For one (thing/person/whatever god is) to be at all places at the same time he must have a lot of monitors hooked up or something but even then you can't still keep track of everybody. And say you do live forever when you die...Heaven and hell must be packed by now. Like China only everywhere. Doesn't make since to have an after life because then what are you gonna do if you run out of space?? I think if there was a god...Dude probably forgot about us already!

I dont believe in god really, but i think ur looking at it the wrong way.
Whereas math is our way of understanding space and time because we cant comprehend the enormity of the universe.
Maybe spiritual or religous understanding of god is the closest we can come to comprehending him/her/it.

Trying to rationalize god and the afterlife in a logical way, limiting him to what a human is capable of is like sueing the sun for causing cancer.
I used to ask "why" alot. But in time i realise that u have to see through all the **** and understand that belief in god can make people realize we all come from the same place and share the same space. To see urself in the eyes of others should make people unite and stop acting like ****wits toward each other.

* FeistyWench *
12-11-2006, 09:53 AM
to no one in particular....


please remember to be respeftful of others beliefs and opinions even if you disagree with them.


Thanks :grouphug:

K-DOGG
12-11-2006, 11:48 AM
Suppose there is a god. What is our purpose? Was god really stoned one day and wanted to play? Say in fact he did make us, He probably made others too. To think that we are soo special to have a being watching us 24/7 is pretty retarded in my book.. Say the billions of people on this earth he has to watch every single one of us, plus billions of billions of other people in other planets... Pretty hard ****ing job. Doesn't seem possible to me.. Have you ever played command and Conquer or Civilization. It must be like that for god...You go over here to check on this fleet the other one is being attacked. For one (thing/person/whatever god is) to be at all places at the same time he must have a lot of monitors hooked up or something but even then you can't still keep track of everybody. And say you do live forever when you die...Heaven and hell must be packed by now. Like China only everywhere. Doesn't make since to have an after life because then what are you gonna do if you run out of space?? I think if there was a god...Dude probably forgot about us already!

You're putting a three and even four dimensional construct on something that has no end in any direction.

If it is true that God is in each and every one of us, as I believe it is, then he knows what's going on everywhere the same way your brain is aware of each and every cell in your body, whether you consciously are aware of them or not. When a foreign entity or organism makes it's way into your body, the brain immediately sends out white blood cells and anti-bodies to attack it, even though all you feel is a sniffle and a runny nose. To me, that's kind of how God works. He/She is aware of everything that is going on; but in this case, you have to watn Him/Her to help instead of God just stepping in and doing whaterver He/She feels is necessary.

Why are we here? To love one another and recognize when we do wrong and repent in our souls of it and strive to be better. Least, that's what I think.

Sin City
12-11-2006, 02:35 PM
I was thinking you guys have some good theories about god but then I thought... You can't have a theory without supporting evidence. Like I can say I know Jesus is a mythological character and bring references, facts, books and materials to support my case. So really what I wanted to know is why do you believe what you believe? and how did you come to those conclusions? And I also think that its better to know something then to believe it. I mean someone can say I believe 1+1=3...and its not right, But its that persons belief. Now you can say I know 1+1 does not equal 3 because if you put 1 and 1 together then its two and here is why and here is the evidence [just an example]. When you say you think the gods that people worship are all inspired by one supreme being and thats why they all have similarities...okay..But why are the customs and beliefs so different?? If they all were coming from one being then the stories would have to be pretty much the same and the laws and beliefs would be too. Why would a being inspire Buddha to believe there is no god just good and evil and how you live your life effects how you are reincarnated. But then turn around and inspire the Jews that you must repent and do as god tells you or you will burn in hell in eternity. If all these gods were inspired by the same being then why did the native americans or mayans aztecs etc not know anything about the same beleifs and worshiped the earth and and the sun etc. Why would a being inspire or tell one group this is wrong and tell the other no it is right! If in fact we all have god in us. There is no evidence to suggest this happened or that is how it happened...so to me it really has or is no case.
"Why are we here? To love one another and recognize when we do wrong and repent in our souls of it and strive to be better. Least, that's what I think."~K-Dogg
I don't believe a being would make us so we can repent, say we are not even made yet...we don't have nothing to repent about and there is no wrong because no one has done anything wrong yet. That sounds like someone fixing something that isn't broken or someone making something so they can brake it and fix it...makes no sense to me.

K-DOGG
12-11-2006, 03:10 PM
I was thinking you guys have some good theories about god but then I thought... You can't have a theory without supporting evidence. Like I can say I know Jesus is a mythological character and bring references, facts, books and materials to support my case. So really what I wanted to know is why do you believe what you believe? and how did you come to those conclusions? And I also think that its better to know something then to believe it. I mean someone can say I believe 1+1=3...and its not right, But its that persons belief. Now you can say I know 1+1 does not equal 3 because if you put 1 and 1 together then its two and here is why and here is the evidence [just an example]. When you say you think the gods that people worship are all inspired by one supreme being and thats why they all have similarities...okay..But why are the customs and beliefs so different?? If they all were coming from one being then the stories would have to be pretty much the same and the laws and beliefs would be too. Why would a being inspire Buddha to believe there is no god just good and evil and how you live your life effects how you are reincarnated. But then turn around and inspire the Jews that you must repent and do as god tells you or you will burn in hell in eternity. If all these gods were inspired by the same being then why did the native americans or mayans aztecs etc not know anything about the same beleifs and worshiped the earth and and the sun etc. Why would a being inspire or tell one group this is wrong and tell the other no it is right! If in fact we all have god in us. There is no evidence to suggest this happened or that is how it happened...so to me it really has or is no case.
"Why are we here? To love one another and recognize when we do wrong and repent in our souls of it and strive to be better. Least, that's what I think."~K-Dogg
I don't believe a being would make us so we can repent, say we are not even made yet...we don't have nothing to repent about and there is no wrong because no one has done anything wrong yet. That sounds like someone fixing something that isn't broken or someone making something so they can brake it and fix it...makes no sense to me.

1. Years of studying books and human nature.

2. Because the people are different. What you have in most cases are the essential truths surrounded by cultural preferences. You know as well as I do that one of the reasons societies go to war is because of lack of understanding or even caring to understand cultural differences. There is usually no effort to look at anything from someone elses perspective and often the presumption that "we are right and they are wrong"....which is how "they" look at it too. When an individual, such as a Budha, or a Jesus tap into "God" they spread the message they feel inspired to spread among their fellow man; and part of that is going to be based on what they share with their fellow man. Jesus was a Jew and Buddha, originally I think, was a Hindu, so their messages are going to be influenced by the cultures with which they were familiar and from which they sprang. This is only natural and to be expected. Consider the different cultural aspects surrounding the essential truths from these different religions as familiar spices that you would put on your food. Mexican pork tasts different from Chinese pork; but it's still pork and substinance by which to nourish your body. The essential truths from these spiritual men is nourishment for the soul and is the same in essence, even though it "tastes" different.......IMO, of course.

3. I am only slightly familiar with Buddhism and some of Buddha's teachings, so kingdosia or Merovingian might be more qualified to answer this question; but I will give you my thoughts. I looke at Buddhism, from what I know of it, Christianty, Hinduism, Judaeism, and even Islam as different pieces to a big puzzle, which is far too complex for we mere mortals to grasp in it's entirity. However, each has enough truth in it for us to live a good and moral life. In Christianity, for example, Jesus himself said, "Judge not lest ye be judged, for with what judgement ye meet, it shall be measured unto you again." That seems obvious enough, to me. If you don't understand something, don't judge them....live your life as "I" have commanded, so to speak, and all the other dominoes fall into place. Humans are the ones who like to focus on the "we are right" aspect of spiritual belief.

3b. As far as Native American religious beliefs are concerned, you must remember that there is not just one because there is not just one nation. I am a little familiar with some of the spiritual beliefs of the Lakota as told by Black Elk. Wakan Tanka is their name for "God", just as some use "Jehova", some use "Yaweh", and others use "Allah," and he has roughly the same role. Wanka Tanka is the Great Spirit, Ska is the sky father, and there is also Mother Earth and seveal other minor "deity-like entities" such as the Thunderbeast or thunderbird, and various tricksters such as the coyote. My interpretation of these "minor-deity-like" entities is just the Lakota recognizing the spirituality of everything in and of the Earth, sky, and universe.

4. As a human, you are granted free will; and through that free will you can and do do wrong, as we all do. When you make a mistake, do you not want to correct it? Does it not pang your conscious when you do something "bad"? If you have no need to "repent", why then do you feel guilty?

Sin City
12-11-2006, 03:29 PM
1. Years of studying books and human nature.

2. Because the people are different. What you have in most cases are the essential truths surrounded by cultural preferences. You know as well as I do that one of the reasons societies go to war is because of lack of understanding or even caring to understand cultural differences. There is usually no effort to look at anything from someone elses perspective and often the presumption that "we are right and they are wrong"....which is how "they" look at it too. When an individual, such as a Budha, or a Jesus tap into "God" they spread the message they feel inspired to spread among their fellow man; and part of that is going to be based on what they share with their fellow man. Jesus was a Jew and Buddha, originally I think, was a Hindu, so their messages are going to be influenced by the cultures with which they were familiar and from which they sprang. This is only natural and to be expected. Consider the different cultural aspects surrounding the essential truths from these different religions as familiar spices that you would put on your food. Mexican pork tasts different from Chinese pork; but it's still pork and substinance by which to nourish your body. The essential truths from these spiritual men is nourishment for the soul and is the same in essence, even though it "tastes" different.......IMO, of course.

3. I am only slightly familiar with Buddhism and some of Buddha's teachings, so kingdosia or Merovingian might be more qualified to answer this question; but I will give you my thoughts. I looke at Buddhism, from what I know of it, Christianty, Hinduism, Judaeism, and even Islam as different pieces to a big puzzle, which is far too complex for we mere mortals to grasp in it's entirity. However, each has enough truth in it for us to live a good and moral life. In Christianity, for example, Jesus himself said, "Judge not lest ye be judged, for with what judgement ye meet, it shall be measured unto you again." That seems obvious enough, to me. If you don't understand something, don't judge them....live your life as "I" have commanded, so to speak, and all the other dominoes fall into place. Humans are the ones who like to focus on the "we are right" aspect of spiritual belief.

3b. As far as Native American religious beliefs are concerned, you must remember that there is not just one because there is not just one nation. I am a little familiar with some of the spiritual beliefs of the Lakota as told by Black Elk. Wakan Tanka is their name for "God", just as some use "Jehova", some use "Yaweh", and others use "Allah," and he has roughly the same role. Wanka Tanka is the Great Spirit, Ska is the sky father, and there is also Mother Earth and seveal other minor "deity-like entities" such as the Thunderbeast or thunderbird, and various tricksters such as the coyote. My interpretation of these "minor-deity-like" entities is just the Lakota recognizing the spirituality of everything in and of the Earth, sky, and universe.

4. As a human, you are granted free will; and through that free will you can and do do wrong, as we all do. When you make a mistake, do you not want to correct it? Does it not pang your conscious when you do something "bad"? If you have no need to "repent", why then do you feel guilty?
my question was why would he make us so we can repent though? If we were not around yet we had nothing to repent about because we were not in existence and we had done nothing wrong. So basically god created us to do bad, feel bad about it, do whats right and repent? Thats the meanng of life, that is why we are here??

K-DOGG
12-11-2006, 03:37 PM
my question was why would he make us so we can repent though? If we were not around yet we had nothing to repent about because we were not in existence and we had done nothing wrong. So basically god created us to do bad, feel bad about it, do whats right and repent? Thats the meanng of life, that is why we are here??

Well, if he knows everything and can transcend space and time, wouldn't he know we were going to screw up?

Here's a thought. I think God created us maybe because he was lonley and wanted to have "children". That may sound stupid, I don't know; but suppose it's possible. And he wanted his children to love him as we want our children to love us as we love them....and for his children's love to be legitimate, they had to have free will, they had to "choose" to love him and not be "made to love him", for that would make us slaves. And just like if your child screws up you still love them; but you know you have to punish them in some way to teach them that that kind of behavior is wrong. Punishing your child doesn't mean you don't love them....it means you do.

Repenting is the act of admitting you did wrong, acknowledging you did something you shouldn't have done and expressing the deisre to never make the same mistake again. It's essentially confessing to a wrong that you know in your heart you did and expressing that you never want to do that again....that you want to be a better person.

What parent doesn't want their kids to be good people? If we weren't required to repent, or accept responsibility for our actions, how will we ever grow as individuals and become better people?

Just my opinion.

rageinme
12-11-2006, 10:09 PM
Well, if he knows everything and can transcend space and time, wouldn't he know we were going to screw up?

Here's a thought. I think God created us maybe because he was lonley and wanted to have "children". That may sound stupid, I don't know; but suppose it's possible. And he wanted his children to love him as we want our children to love us as we love them....and for his children's love to be legitimate, they had to have free will, they had to "choose" to love him and not be "made to love him", for that would make us slaves. And just like if your child screws up you still love them; but you know you have to punish them in some way to teach them that that kind of behavior is wrong. Punishing your child doesn't mean you don't love them....it means you do.

Repenting is the act of admitting you did wrong, acknowledging you did something you shouldn't have done and expressing the deisre to never make the same mistake again. It's essentially confessing to a wrong that you know in your heart you did and expressing that you never want to do that again....that you want to be a better person.

What parent doesn't want their kids to be good people? If we weren't required to repent, or accept responsibility for our actions, how will we ever grow as individuals and become better people?

Just my opinion.

that grace is sufficient

rageinme
12-11-2006, 10:13 PM
Jesus Is Good

Sin City
12-11-2006, 11:05 PM
Jesus Is Good
Jesus was a fraud!

rageinme
12-11-2006, 11:43 PM
Jesus was a fraud!

ok,explain how he is fraud

rageinme
12-12-2006, 12:02 AM
Jesus was a fraud!

if you don't believe in jesus,then how do you say he "was" a fraud

Oasis_Lad
12-12-2006, 12:13 AM
if you don't believe in jesus,then how do you say he "was" a fraud

did you just come onto a boxing board to quote bible verses and say how much you love jesus ?

Sin City
12-12-2006, 12:24 AM
if you don't believe in jesus,then how do you say he "was" a fraud
Exactly he was a fraud. I've already said why he was a fraud in alot of the other posts.

rageinme
12-12-2006, 12:52 AM
Exactly he was a fraud. I've already said why he was a fraud in alot of the other posts.

PROVERBS 12:16-17
1 PETER 4:14

Sin City
12-12-2006, 01:03 AM
PROVERBS 12:16-17
1 PETER 4:14
Those bible passages mean nothing to me guy.. For I do not believe in the bible, It would be like a Muslim reading passages from the Koran to you. I can read a passage to you from the Book of the Flying Spaghetti Monster and it will not make a case or difference. Every one has there own beliefs about Jesus and religion...its what we have been discusing here, But at the end of the day the facts prove it and the facts lead to no Jesus. Ask any scholar on the subject or a mythologist or any historian who knows anything about the matter and they will tell you so. Ferther more Science disproves your religion, and your book because the bible says Gods law is perfect and his scripture is perfect...and its filled with imperfections.. and it is not. So why should you take anything in that book sirously, If the majority of the book is a bunch of B/S what makes people think the other stuff is different...that I don't know!

rageinme
12-12-2006, 01:27 AM
Those bible passages mean nothing to me guy.. For I do not believe in the bible, It would be like a Muslim reading passages from the Koran to you. I can read a passage to you from the Book of the Flying Spaghetti Monster and it will not make a case or difference. Every one has there own beliefs about Jesus and religion...its what we have been discusing here, But at the end of the day the facts prove it and the facts lead to no Jesus. Ask any scholar on the subject or a mythologist or any historian who knows anything about the matter and they will tell you so. Ferther more Science disproves your religion, and your book because the bible says Gods law is perfect and his scripture is perfect...and its filled with imperfections.. and it is not. So why should you take anything in that book sirously, If the majority of the book is a bunch of B/S what makes people think the other stuff is different...that I don't know!

YES GOD'S LAW AND HIS WORD IS PERFECT.GODS KNOWS WERE NOT PERFECT.THATS WHY THERE IS GRACE AND FORGIVENESS ,MERCY,THAT'S WHY HE DIED ON THE CROSS FOR US.SCIENCE GOTS NO PROVE THAT GOD IS NOT REAL.

Sin City
12-12-2006, 01:46 AM
YES GOD'S LAW AND HIS WORD IS PERFECT.GODS KNOWS WERE NOT PERFECT.THATS WHY THERE IS GRACE AND FORGIVENESS ,MERCY,THAT'S WHY HE DIED ON THE CROSS FOR US.SCIENCE GOTS NO PROVE THAT GOD IS NOT REAL.
Just like you have no proof he is real. Like you have no proof to say any other god like Allah is not real. Thats a dumb thing to say in my book because I can say I have an invisible elf that lives under my bed.. You can't disprove it! How do you know he is not real?? what about Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, the Leprechuan etc. And your god (the christian one) is not perfect because his book is filled with flaws, and it was devinly inspired by him and he wrote it through some men correct, is that what you believe? Then how come there is so manny errors in it.

rageinme
12-12-2006, 02:55 AM
Just like you have no proof he is real. Like you have no proof to say any other god like Allah is not real. Thats a dumb thing to say in my book because I can say I have an invisible elf that lives under my bed.. You can't disprove it! How do you know he is not real?? what about Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, the Leprechuan etc. And your god (the christian one) is not perfect because his book is filled with flaws, and it was devinly inspired by him and he wrote it through some men correct, is that what you believe? Then how come there is so manny errors in it.

ok,what parts of the bible are filled with flaws?Do you mean all the demon filled man that jesus healed,or the sick people he took care of.the bible was not mean't to be perfect it the way it is for many reasons.But gods word is perfect, I know you don't believe in god,but just for one week I bet if you prayed to god and really mean't it I know he would speak to you in some way,it may sound corny but its true.

* FeistyWench *
12-12-2006, 08:21 AM
i hate these threads because no one can prove they are right. you can only share you belief and find comfort in your own beliefs. arguing about it is pointless.

The Noose
12-12-2006, 10:29 AM
i hate these threads because no one can prove they are right. you can only share you belief and find comfort in your own beliefs. arguing about it is pointless.

The thread had its moments between people who wanted to learn from each other. Sadly now its just a totally pointless case of who is right and who is wrong.

I believe u learn the most from people who are the opposite of yourself. Fundamentally, we are all after the same things in life. Love, happiness, peace of mind, the will to overcome all those ****ty obstacles.
It SHOULD be facsinating to understand how different people with different beliefs achieve these things.

* FeistyWench *
12-12-2006, 10:31 AM
The thread had its moments between people who wanted to learn from each other. Sadly now its just a totally pointless case of who is right and who is wrong.

I believe u learn the most from people who are the opposite of yourself. Fundamentally, we are all after the same things in life. Love, happiness, peace of mind, the will to overcome all those ****ty obstacles.
It SHOULD be facsinating to understand how different people with different beliefs achieve these things.

true................
nicely said

The Noose
12-12-2006, 10:34 AM
true................
nicely said

Cheers luv.

:grouphug: > :argue:

chosen1
12-12-2006, 11:52 AM
why do we have seasons(winter,summer,fall)?why aren't apes still evolving into humans?why can't a human get an ape pregnant?how did we get stars,moon,and the sun? where did love come from?who created the ape and where did he come from?take a long look at history and the human body inside and out and ask yourself that question again( GOD,NO GOD,AND MORALS) GOD created the heaven and the earth and everything,every person,every animal,every plant,the sun,moon,stars...since this is true then you must serve the GOD who made you not an animal or man that GOD created, you must follow the commandments GOD made for us humans to follow:see the holy bible.the man was created first and the woman out of the womb of a man(his ribs) second from the dirt of the earth(the reason why dirt comes off you when you take a bath/shower).They both sinned against GOD and brought sin into the world which is the reason why will have murder,sex outside of marriage,drugs,lust and all the other sinful acts we have in the world today(the reason we are having this conversation).GOD hates sin and is going to destroy the world because of it and will judge all humans according to the way they lived their life on earth.there is only one way out of this destruction to be rejoined with the one we search for and our hearts long for( which is the reason we are having this conversation) that way is GODs son JESUS CHRIST the one true KING the only way to the father who bore our sins and gave us life evermore, for GOD so loved the world that he gave his only beggoten son that whosoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. We must repent for our sins and turn from our life of sin and start a new personal relationship with JESUS CHRIST....its the only way you will truly be satisfied and have all of the answers to the questions you have then will you fill that empty space in your heart that you try to fill with money,power,sex,fame,drugs,etc. GOD bless:boxing:

K-DOGG
12-12-2006, 12:51 PM
The thread had its moments between people who wanted to learn from each other. Sadly now its just a totally pointless case of who is right and who is wrong.

I believe u learn the most from people who are the opposite of yourself. Fundamentally, we are all after the same things in life. Love, happiness, peace of mind, the will to overcome all those ****ty obstacles.
It SHOULD be facsinating to understand how different people with different beliefs achieve these things.


Agreed.

For All Christians....and Jews, and Muslims, actually: The Bible and Torah are fillled with historical inaccuracies, such as the creation story and the flood story which are more than likely Hebrew re-tellings of Egyptian and Babylonian creation and flood stories....yes, it's true. Don't believe me, look it up.

The Hebrews were enslaved by both cultures during different time periods, so had ample opportunity to pick up certain tales from their culture. The Hebrews were supposedly in Egypt for some 600 years and you expect them to know as much about who they are upon their departure with "Moses" as they did when "Joseph" was an assistant to the Pharoh and let his brothers settle in Egypt to avoid the famine? This is roughly 600 years....I did the math myself.

Let me give you a modern example, so you'll be able to put it in perspective:

How many African-Americans do you know who can tell you the name of their ancestors who got off the slave ships here in Amercia some 450 years ago, provided they are decended from slaves, of course, or the part of Africa their ancestors came from, or how they worshiped?

I'm not posting this particular post to cause any true believers any grief, just trying to illustrate why there are those who don't believe and why it is difficult for them. If you truly consider your faith strong, though, go ahead....do some research as to the origins of the Bible and some of the tales within.....or study how Christianity progressed from the days when Jesus walked the earth (SinCityKid...he did actually walk the earth...look it up and quit going on the word of some radio shock-jock; do your own homwork.) to the formation of the first "organized church, which became the Catholic Chuch...and the Orthodox Church later, under the Emperor Constantine and the Council of Trent. Do some homework, educate yourselves, learn the nature of how today's denominations came to be and how some facts were rearranged from a dogmatic standpoint.....if you dare.

If you don't feel your faith is strong enough to deal with the truth....then just ignore what I've said and keep believing the Earth was literally created in a day and that it's only a little over 4,000 years old. Quit being so closed minded....peek outside of the box, reality won't bite you.

I consider myself a Christian...I'm a bit unorthodox, admittedly; but I do believe Jesus Christ was the Son of God and take his word as law. Knowing the picture is not entirely accurate does not sway me from belief in this man nor what he had to say.


Now that I've given the believers a hard time....

For Atheists: Lighten up and allow people to believe what they will; and don't be so quick to discount everything you can't see or touch....peek outside of the box.


For everyone: play nice and quit trying to "prove" a belief. You can't prove a belief, you can only share it. :)


I'm out....hugz. And an early "Merry Christmas", even though it was originally a pagan holiday for worshipping trees, which the early Church changed to Jesus's birthday so as to encorporate a pagan ritual into their own story....making the newly reformed former pagans more comfortable with this strange new doctrine. ;)

NUTHIN' BUT LUV, Y'ALL!! :grouphug:

:angel:

rageinme
12-12-2006, 01:51 PM
why do we have seasons(winter,summer,fall)?why aren't apes still evolving into humans?why can't a human get an ape pregnant?how did we get stars,moon,and the sun? where did love come from?who created the ape and where did he come from?take a long look at history and the human body inside and out and ask yourself that question again( GOD,NO GOD,AND MORALS) GOD created the heaven and the earth and everything,every person,every animal,every plant,the sun,moon,stars...since this is true then you must serve the GOD who made you not an animal or man that GOD created, you must follow the commandments GOD made for us humans to follow:see the holy bible.the man was created first and the woman out of the womb of a man(his ribs) second from the dirt of the earth(the reason why dirt comes off you when you take a bath/shower).They both sinned against GOD and brought sin into the world which is the reason why will have murder,sex outside of marriage,drugs,lust and all the other sinful acts we have in the world today(the reason we are having this conversation).GOD hates sin and is going to destroy the world because of it and will judge all humans according to the way they lived their life on earth.there is only one way out of this destruction to be rejoined with the one we search for and our hearts long for( which is the reason we are having this conversation) that way is GODs son JESUS CHRIST the one true KING the only way to the father who bore our sins and gave us life evermore, for GOD so loved the world that he gave his only beggoten son that whosoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. We must repent for our sins and turn from our life of sin and start a new personal relationship with JESUS CHRIST....its the only way you will truly be satisfied and have all of the answers to the questions you have then will you fill that empty space in your heart that you try to fill with money,power,sex,fame,drugs,etc. GOD bless:boxing:

thank you JESUS

Ta Khent
12-12-2006, 02:50 PM
Agreed.

For All Christians....and Jews, and Muslims, actually: The Bible and Torah are fillled with historical inaccuracies, such as the creation story and the flood story which are more than likely Hebrew re-tellings of Egyptian and Babylonian creation and flood stories....yes, it's true. Don't believe me, look it up.

The Hebrews were enslaved by both cultures during different time periods, so had ample opportunity to pick up certain tales from their culture. The Hebrews were supposedly in Egypt for some 600 years and you expect them to know as much about who they are upon their departure with "Moses" as they did when "Joseph" was an assistant to the Pharoh and let his brothers settle in Egypt to avoid the famine? This is roughly 600 years....I did the math myself.

Let me give you a modern example, so you'll be able to put it in perspective:

How many African-Americans do you know who can tell you the name of their ancestors who got off the slave ships here in Amercia some 450 years ago, provided they are decended from slaves, of course, or the part of Africa their ancestors came from, or how they worshiped?

I'm not posting this particular post to cause any true believers any grief, just trying to illustrate why there are those who don't believe and why it is difficult for them. If you truly consider your faith strong, though, go ahead....do some research as to the origins of the Bible and some of the tales within.....or study how Christianity progressed from the days when Jesus walked the earth (SinCityKid...he did actually walk the earth...look it up and quit going on the word of some radio shock-jock; do your own homwork.) to the formation of the first "organized church, which became the Catholic Chuch...and the Orthodox Church later, under the Emperor Constantine and the Council of Trent. Do some homework, educate yourselves, learn the nature of how today's denominations came to be and how some facts were rearranged from a dogmatic standpoint.....if you dare.

If you don't feel your faith is strong enough to deal with the truth....then just ignore what I've said and keep believing the Earth was literally created in a day and that it's only a little over 4,000 years old. Quit being so closed minded....peek outside of the box, reality won't bite you.

I consider myself a Christian...I'm a bit unorthodox, admittedly; but I do believe Jesus Christ was the Son of God and take his word as law. Knowing the picture is not entirely accurate does not sway me from belief in this man nor what he had to say.


Now that I've given the believers a hard time....

For Atheists: Lighten up and allow people to believe what they will; and don't be so quick to discount everything you can't see or touch....peek outside of the box.


For everyone: play nice and quit trying to "prove" a belief. You can't prove a belief, you can only share it. :)


I'm out....hugz. And an early "Merry Christmas", even though it was originally a pagan holiday for worshipping trees, which the early Church changed to Jesus's birthday so as to encorporate a pagan ritual into their own story....making the newly reformed former pagans more comfortable with this strange new doctrine. ;)

NUTHIN' BUT LUV, Y'ALL!! :grouphug:

:angel:


Excellent post as always K-DOGG.

All cultures both past and present believe in a God source in one form or another. Despite the differences in that God source, only one thing remains consistent; It is responsible for the creation of all life. Therefore, we are all connected to this source and each other. So, we should focus on what we have in common and live in peace and harmony with one another.

Sin City
12-12-2006, 04:50 PM
I have done some homework, maybe not as much as you and have looked at articles, books and other stuff...such as Of Pandas and People witch is a science book ment to discredit evolution. What I found is that most religious documents or books trying to justify god often switch history around in a way to benefit god and religion. Fact is about 2 to 300 hundred years before the supposed birth of Christ, He wasn't even thought of yet Krishna was born of a virgin birth in a manger, visited by wise men, had followers and disciples, descended into hell only to rise again after 3 days.. K-Dogg you say you believe that somehow all these stories came from a being inspiring different people at different times in history and somehow all the gods are interconnected because in reality they are just one.... :/ right? Where is the evidence of that? Manny pagans had not heard of a jew named Jesus or whatever it is they supposedly called him back in the day when they made their gods. The gospels were written 40 years after the supposed death of Christ. And at the two points Jesus does seem to be intertwined with history through the story of Cesar Agustus letting go a known serial killer and insurrectionist Barabus (or whatever his name was) and the supreme Jewish council meeting on pass over eve to deal with a guy named Jesus is just retarded. You say a lot of the bible stories in the old and new testament are bull****...ok so what makes you believe that the rest isn't? If I hand you a book full of lies and say oh well pages 6-12 are actual and fact...are you really gonna believe me?? Adolf Hitler made Mein Cumf to try and get power and his movement going, don't you think a bunch of power hungry priest could have done the same to foul the masses into believing that if they don't believe what they do they are going to hell?? It has happened plenty of times before. I never said I wasn't open to a deity or god..I used to be..I have looked "out the box" I have pried with all my heart and have gone to church I have learned about many other religions and I know that there is nothing there. Who ever wrote the bible bit of of other religions of the area and put bits and peaces together to make their own. Ya'll keep praying for good to help you fix your problems, I'm gonna fix my own. Jesus hasn't helped me do jack **** yet....But I have a nice car, a easy job that pays decent, I am doing great in school [thankfully the semester is over tommarow lol] and am doing fine and I'm happy no thanks to god or Jesus. The bible says no good can come from a atheist. tell that to Bruce Lee, Ian McKellen, Jack Nicholson, Director Steven Soderbergh, Lance Armstrong, Marlon Brando, Seth Green , Angelina Jolie, Susan B. Anthony, Ernest Hemingway, Mark Twain, Noam Chomsky, Francis Crick and James Watson [they discovered the structure of DNA], Richard Dawkins, Thomas Edison, Carl Sagan, Warran Buffet [donated 37 billion dollars to charity], Bill Gates....The creator of the computer you are using and a man who also donated 30 billion dollars to charity. And many others who helped create medicines, vaccines and made great medical advancements through chemistry biology and science!

Psalms 14:1 The fool has said in his heart,"there is no god." They are corrupt, their deeds are veil, and there is no one who does good!"

K-DOGG
12-12-2006, 05:16 PM
I have done some homework, maybe not as much as you and have looked at articles, books and other stuff...such as Of Pandas and People witch is a science book ment to discredit evolution. What I found is that most religious documents or books trying to justify god often switch history around in a way to benefit god and religion. Fact is about 2 to 300 hundred years before the supposed birth of Christ, He wasn't even thought of yet Krishna was born of a virgin birth in a manger, visited by wise men, had followers and disciples, descended into hell only to rise again after 3 days.. K-Dogg you say you believe that somehow all these stories came from a being inspiring different people at different times in history and somehow all the gods are interconnected because in reality they are just one.... :/ right? Where is the evidence of that? Manny pagans had not heard of a jew named Jesus or whatever it is they supposedly called him back in the day when they made their gods. The gospels were written 40 years after the supposed death of Christ. And at the two points Jesus does seem to be intertwined with history through the story of Cesar Agustus letting go a known serial killer and insurrectionist Barabus (or whatever his name was) and the supreme Jewish council meeting on pass over eve to deal with a guy named Jesus is just retarded. You say a lot of the bible stories in the old and new testament are bull****...ok so what makes you believe that the rest isn't? If I hand you a book full of lies and say oh well pages 6-12 are actual and fact...are you really gonna believe me?? Adolf Hitler made Mein Cumf to try and get power and his movement going, don't you think a bunch of power hungry priest could have done the same to foul the masses into believing that if they don't believe what they do they are going to hell?? It has happened plenty of times before. I never said I wasn't open to a deity or god..I used to be..I have looked "out the box" I have pried with all my heart and have gone to church I have learned about many other religions and I know that there is nothing there. Who ever wrote the bible bit of of other religions of the area and put bits and peaces together to make their own. Ya'll keep praying for good to help you fix your problems, I'm gonna fix my own. Jesus hasn't helped me do jack **** yet....But I have a nice car, a easy job that pays decent, I am doing great in school [thankfully the semester is over tommarow lol] and am doing fine and I'm happy no thanks to god or Jesus. The bible says no good can come from a atheist. tell that to Bruce Lee, Ian McKellen, Jack Nicholson, Director Steven Soderbergh, Lance Armstrong, Marlon Brando, Seth Green , Angelina Jolie, Susan B. Anthony, Ernest Hemingway, Mark Twain, Noam Chomsky, Francis Crick and James Watson [they discovered the structure of DNA], Richard Dawkins, Thomas Edison, Carl Sagan, Warran Buffet [donated 37 billion dollars to charity], Bill Gates....The creator of the computer you are using and a man who also donated 30 billion dollars to charity. And many others who helped create medicines, vaccines and made great medical advancements through chemistry biology and science!

Psalms 14:1 The fool has said in his heart,"there is no god." They are corrupt, their deeds are veil, and there is no one who does good!"

I'm going to answer as succinctly as I can....and do so with a question, if you will. How can all of those coincidences not be connected? How can people who never had any contact and separated by oceans of time share the same stories if there wasn't some connection? This is my "proof", so to speak. I do not believe in coincidences.

As far as how I can admit to certain discrepancies in the Bible and still believe in Jesus...well, what can I say. The quotes atttibuted to this man Jesus are full of wisdom to me, personally. If you think his words are false or foolish, that's you; but I find truth in his words and wisdom...and the way to live one's life. It matters not if some of the facts about his life have become scured with time, the words remain the same and carry the weight of the truth, which is all I need. I find no fault in them; but love and peace and forgiveness and understanding and compassion and patience. How are these attributes detrimental to mankind?

You, I think, as so many others are so busy being caught up in semantics that you miss the point, which is the message itself.

As far as the successes you listed and the references you made to "success" and such, isn't "success" relative to the individual? You are placing your definition of what success is onto someone else. It's all relative my young friend....everything is relative.

As Merovingian said: "All cultures both past and present believe in a God source in one form or another. Despite the differences in that God source, only one thing remains consistent; It is responsible for the creation of all life. Therefore, we are all connected to this source and each other. So, we should focus on what we have in common and live in peace and harmony with one another."

K-DOGG
12-12-2006, 05:18 PM
Excellent post as always K-DOGG.

All cultures both past and present believe in a God source in one form or another. Despite the differences in that God source, only one thing remains consistent; It is responsible for the creation of all life. Therefore, we are all connected to this source and each other. So, we should focus on what we have in common and live in peace and harmony with one another.


Love that post, btw. :fing02:

Sin City
12-12-2006, 05:56 PM
Love that post, btw. :fing02:
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c57/N9ntyFoGTO/middle_east.jpg
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c57/N9ntyFoGTO/750x750_india_m.gif
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c57/N9ntyFoGTO/T041459A.gif

India, the Middle East, Egypt, Isreal and Rome was just across the Mediterranean Sea... All these countries did trade with each other, With trading comes human interaction, during stays in other countries while trading spices, animals, furs and other goods you have alot of free time during voyages to talk to people, tell stories and talk about different topics.
Person A talks about one Diety and Person B tells him of another Person C is listening.... Person C goes home and combines both stories to make a new storie.....Sooner or later, They have similar characteristics (just an example)lol


Hinduism, Buddhism, Chirstianity, Islam all came from the same region.

K-DOGG
12-12-2006, 05:59 PM
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c57/N9ntyFoGTO/middle_east.jpg
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c57/N9ntyFoGTO/750x750_india_m.gif
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c57/N9ntyFoGTO/T041459A.gif

India, the Middle East, Egypt, Isreal and Rome was just across the Mediterranean Sea... All these countries did trade with each other, With trading comes human interaction, during stays in other countries while trading spices, animals, furs and other goods you have alot of free time during voyages to talk to people, tell stories and talk about different topics.
Person A talks about one Diety and Person B tells him of another Person C is listening.... Person C goes home and combines both stories to make a new storie.....Sooner or later, They have similar characteristics (just an example)lol

Aye, good point; but that doesn't explain the similarities with some aspects of Native American religions. ;)

Sin City
12-12-2006, 06:03 PM
I just wanted to point out that I have done some research and am not just talking out of my ass like most the people in this discussion think I am. As of Native American beliefs I haven't put to much work into them...I will look into it. but I do know that Aztec, Inca, and Mayan beliefs are nothing like the ones you stated.

K-DOGG
12-12-2006, 06:14 PM
I just wanted to point out that I have done some research and am not just talking out of my ass like most the people in this discussion think I am. As of Native American beliefs I haven't put to much work into them...I will look into it. but I do know that Aztec, Inca, and Mayan beliefs are nothing like the ones you stated.

Check out some of the Lakota beliefs...I would recommend "God is Red" as a good book for an encompassing view. Though the author stresses on the differences, it became apparent to me while reading, the similarities.

Don't get caught up in the semantics....focus on the big picture and try to keep it all in perspective.

K-DOGG
12-12-2006, 06:48 PM
I understand how difficult it is to believe in an entitiy that you can neither see, nor touch, nor hear, for this falls into the realm of the super-natural and the metaphysical and does require a certain amount of faith...and some would say foolishness.

However, what I would like to impress upon you is how difficult it is for me to conceive of an existance without such an entity. The Big Bang I can buy, the physical formation of the stars and the planets I understand. But, the odds against life coming from lifelessness without intelligent help are astronaumical. I cannot conceive of life "just happening". To me, it takes far more faith to believe in such a thing than it takes to believe in an all-knowing, omnipresent, interdimensional connection between us all.

KingDosia
12-12-2006, 06:56 PM
This conversation always seems to have the same ending, regardless the minds duking it out. That ending is we agree to disagree, Ther isn't a right or wrong answer. The mind of man can be an awsome generator of both logical, and imagery perception. Hence two sides of this story. It's not meant to figure out. And even if you had would you benefit at all from having that knowledge?
Mathmatics is a human creation. We use it to explain many things in the universe. Just because it makes sense to that part of our brain. It's got to be absolute right?
uh uh
The fantastic part of it is also a creation by our mind. This has no standard and varies from person to person. = the reason it is so easily discredited. That doesn't mean it is wrong.
Over turn every rock. And you will still be in the same spot. Clueless.
Where we came from is not meant for us to know.
The forbidon fruit?

rageinme
12-13-2006, 02:29 AM
Believe Or Not, Jesus Love's Us

eazy_mas
12-13-2006, 05:27 AM
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c57/N9ntyFoGTO/middle_east.jpg
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c57/N9ntyFoGTO/750x750_india_m.gif
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c57/N9ntyFoGTO/T041459A.gif

India, the Middle East, Egypt, Isreal and Rome was just across the Mediterranean Sea... All these countries did trade with each other, With trading comes human interaction, during stays in other countries while trading spices, animals, furs and other goods you have alot of free time during voyages to talk to people, tell stories and talk about different topics.
Person A talks about one Diety and Person B tells him of another Person C is listening.... Person C goes home and combines both stories to make a new storie.....Sooner or later, They have similar characteristics (just an example)lol


Hinduism, Buddhism, Chirstianity, Islam all came from the same region.

All those religion are not the same.

Islam, Christianity and Judsim are similar because we have the same God. but the perpective and presentation of each on is different as well as the ideology

CoLd_WaVE
12-13-2006, 10:35 AM
Don't get me wrong, but i do believe in God... but i still have some questions...

If God is omnipotent, then why do the problem of Evil still exist???

If God is omniscient, then why was He unable to prevent the rebellion of his angels???

i'm just too lazy to go through 22 pages... so if these questions have already been answered then ignore..... Peace....

K-DOGG
12-13-2006, 02:49 PM
Don't get me wrong, but i do believe in God... but i still have some questions...

If God is omnipotent, then why do the problem of Evil still exist???

If God is omniscient, then why was He unable to prevent the rebellion of his angels???

i'm just too lazy to go through 22 pages... so if these questions have already been answered then ignore..... Peace....

Ah, the heart of the whole topic. :)

Well, all I can offer you is my opinion, so here goes...

Evil exists because man won't listen to God and be good. Evil comes from within us. It is not God's job to stomp out evil, it is ours. He/She has given us the tools and the info on how to get rid of it; but it is up to all of us to work together through our individual choices to make is so. If God took it upon himself/herself to stomp out evil, what would our purpose be? Why would we even be here?

In Genesis the birth of this struggle is symbolized in the eating of the forbidden fruit by Adam and Eve. Once they ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, they became aware, or conscious, unlike all of the other animals on the planet, who don't have a "right and wrong" compass. By becoming aware of "right and wrong", we in effect gave birth to "evil" by having mere knowledge of it.....if that makes any sense.

Of course, I believe this story to be purely symbollic; but it's a good definition of where evil comes from....from within. So, given that we have the power to do good as well as the power to do evil, then it is up to us and us alone to choose which path to follow. If we all chose the good path, evil would become non-existant except in our minds and our knowledge of it.

This, is my interpretation of it anyway.


On the "rebellion" issue, that's a good question, provided such a rebellion took place. My guess is God did know about it....and knew his side would win; and wanted to allow Lucifer the opportunity to change his mind and not rebel, only to be disappointed by his favorite.

Once again, this is just what I think.

CoLd_WaVE
12-13-2006, 09:52 PM
Ah, the heart of the whole topic. :)

Well, all I can offer you is my opinion, so here goes...

Evil exists because man won't listen to God and be good. Evil comes from within us. It is not God's job to stomp out evil, it is ours. He/She has given us the tools and the info on how to get rid of it; but it is up to all of us to work together through our individual choices to make is so. If God took it upon himself/herself to stomp out evil, what would our purpose be? Why would we even be here?

In Genesis the birth of this struggle is symbolized in the eating of the forbidden fruit by Adam and Eve. Once they ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, they became aware, or conscious, unlike all of the other animals on the planet, who don't have a "right and wrong" compass. By becoming aware of "right and wrong", we in effect gave birth to "evil" by having mere knowledge of it.....if that makes any sense.

Of course, I believe this story to be purely symbollic; but it's a good definition of where evil comes from....from within. So, given that we have the power to do good as well as the power to do evil, then it is up to us and us alone to choose which path to follow. If we all chose the good path, evil would become non-existant except in our minds and our knowledge of it.

This, is my interpretation of it anyway.


On the "rebellion" issue, that's a good question, provided such a rebellion took place. My guess is God did know about it....and knew his side would win; and wanted to allow Lucifer the opportunity to change his mind and not rebel, only to be disappointed by his favorite.

Once again, this is just what I think.

very nice points.... thanks for the reply....

i would like to add this question: if God is omniscient, then he knew all along that Lucifer will rebel and at the expense of the suffering of all men.... it would equal the statement that God himself is responsible for the imperfection and suffering of men??? Because if he had known beforehand he should have prevented it (suffering).... After all, God is love, right???

but what the hell.... we are JUST men.... i personally think that God's purpose/goals are beyond our comprehension... well, that's me....

what say you?

Sin City
12-13-2006, 10:27 PM
Ah, the heart of the whole topic. :)

Well, all I can offer you is my opinion, so here goes...

Evil exists because man won't listen to God and be good. Evil comes from within us. It is not God's job to stomp out evil, it is ours. He/She has given us the tools and the info on how to get rid of it; but it is up to all of us to work together through our individual choices to make is so. If God took it upon himself/herself to stomp out evil, what would our purpose be? Why would we even be here?

In Genesis the birth of this struggle is symbolized in the eating of the forbidden fruit by Adam and Eve. Once they ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, they became aware, or conscious, unlike all of the other animals on the planet, who don't have a "right and wrong" compass. By becoming aware of "right and wrong", we in effect gave birth to "evil" by having mere knowledge of it.....if that makes any sense.

Of course, I believe this story to be purely symbollic; but it's a good definition of where evil comes from....from within. So, given that we have the power to do good as well as the power to do evil, then it is up to us and us alone to choose which path to follow. If we all chose the good path, evil would become non-existant except in our minds and our knowledge of it.

This, is my interpretation of it anyway.


On the "rebellion" issue, that's a good question, provided such a rebellion took place. My guess is God did know about it....and knew his side would win; and wanted to allow Lucifer the opportunity to change his mind and not rebel, only to be disappointed by his favorite.

Once again, this is just what I think.
How can god love us if thats a human emotion?

If adam and eve didn't know right from wrong...beause they had never seen evil and did not know that disobeying was a bad thing (they were innocents), then if the storie did happend why would god punish them?

If god new that Lucifer was gonna rebel and could see the future then that means that there is fate and the future is already determined so why should I be doomed to hell for being an atheist if he knew I was gonna question and not beleive in him...(if god was real)

And if god sees the future then he would have known that adam and eve would be tempted by the serpent and prevent it from happening so every thing could be fine and dandy...And if god is all knowing then he knew that there was evil in the garden of eden...so therefore he must have let that evil in so he could tempt the innocents. And why place a pretty tree of such sort with fruit where two teenagers live that don't know right from wrong that are gonna be curious about it in the first place.... this god... he is a sick dude!

Oasis_Lad
12-13-2006, 10:38 PM
Don't get me wrong, but i do believe in God... but i still have some questions...

If God is omnipotent, then why do the problem of Evil still exist???

If God is omniscient, then why was He unable to prevent the rebellion of his angels???

i'm just too lazy to go through 22 pages... so if these questions have already been answered then ignore..... Peace....

i was reading "holy blood holy grail" and they speak about this

it was basically saying that there were two gods both with equal power. one was good and one was evil and therfore good could never overcome evil and vice versa as they are equal in power which is why it exists.

ill find the book and post up the exact paragraph

Ta Khent
12-13-2006, 10:40 PM
very nice points.... thanks for the reply....

i would like to add this question: if God is omniscient, then he knew all along that Lucifer will rebel and at the expense of the suffering of all men.... it would equal the statement that God himself is responsible for the imperfection and suffering of men??? Because if he had known beforehand he should have prevented it (suffering).... After all, God is love, right???

but what the hell.... we are JUST men.... i personally think that God's purpose/goals are beyond our comprehension... well, that's me....

what say you?

If that's the case, then why bother to write or read them. You are implying that the all knowing chose words that are mysterious and then put them in a book so the reader could do what...be confused? I don't get it, you put this spirit on the highest pedestal just to belittle it to an ignorant spirit or is God so intelligent that it can't communicate to people in simple forms but, it can be emotional in simple terms.

Sin City
12-13-2006, 10:41 PM
Ah, the heart of the whole topic. :)

Well, all I can offer you is my opinion, so here goes...

Evil exists because man won't listen to God and be good. Evil comes from within us. It is not God's job to stomp out evil, it is ours. He/She has given us the tools and the info on how to get rid of it; but it is up to all of us to work together through our individual choices to make is so. If God took it upon himself/herself to stomp out evil, what would our purpose be? Why would we even be here?

In Genesis the birth of this struggle is symbolized in the eating of the forbidden fruit by Adam and Eve. Once they ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, they became aware, or conscious, unlike all of the other animals on the planet, who don't have a "right and wrong" compass. By becoming aware of "right and wrong", we in effect gave birth to "evil" by having mere knowledge of it.....if that makes any sense.

Of course, I believe this story to be purely symbollic; but it's a good definition of where evil comes from....from within. So, given that we have the power to do good as well as the power to do evil, then it is up to us and us alone to choose which path to follow. If we all chose the good path, evil would become non-existant except in our minds and our knowledge of it.

This, is my interpretation of it anyway.


On the "rebellion" issue, that's a good question, provided such a rebellion took place. My guess is God did know about it....and knew his side would win; and wanted to allow Lucifer the opportunity to change his mind and not rebel, only to be disappointed by his favorite.

Once again, this is just what I think.
Free Will and an Omniscient God (god who knows everything) are logically impossible dude your contradicting yourself lol :)

Ta Khent
12-13-2006, 10:47 PM
i was reading "holy blood holy grail" and they speak about this

it was basically saying that there were two gods both with equal power. one was good and one was evil and therfore good could never overcome evil and vice versa as they are equal in power which is why it exists.

ill find the book and post up the exact paragraph


If everything came from one source, then evil had to come from that source. Of course some will say that the devil created evil but, the devil did not manifest himself into existence now did he. The story is God created the devil and if the devil became evil, then whatever created him had to put evil into him or else he could not have manifested it into energy. Every energy in the world has an OPPOSITE, same in nature, different in degree.

eazy_mas
12-14-2006, 02:05 AM
How can god love us if thats a human emotion?

If adam and eve didn't know right from wrong...beause they had never seen evil and did not know that disobeying was a bad thing (they were innocents), then if the storie did happend why would god punish them?

If god new that Lucifer was gonna rebel and could see the future then that means that there is fate and the future is already determined so why should I be doomed to hell for being an atheist if he knew I was gonna question and not beleive in him...(if god was real)

And if god sees the future then he would have known that adam and eve would be tempted by the serpent and prevent it from happening so every thing could be fine and dandy...And if god is all knowing then he knew that there was evil in the garden of eden...so therefore he must have let that evil in so he could tempt the innocents. And why place a pretty tree of such sort with fruit where two teenagers live that don't know right from wrong that are gonna be curious about it in the first place.... this god... he is a sick dude!

So you could be tested in this life.

How do you if someone is good or bad by testing them.

because without testing you faith there is really not telling if you good or bad.

CoLd_WaVE
12-14-2006, 10:27 AM
If everything came from one source, then evil had to come from that source. Of course some will say that the devil created evil but, the devil did not manifest himself into existence now did he. The story is God created the devil and if the devil became evil, then whatever created him had to put evil into him or else he could not have manifested it into energy. Every energy in the world has an OPPOSITE, same in nature, different in degree.

i was just stating my humble opinion bro... and it's nice that you have made clear points in your argument...

if i may ask you... Do you believe that God is Omniscient and Omnipotent? Do you believe in freewill?

your answers will be appreciated....

K-DOGG
12-14-2006, 11:52 AM
How can god love us if thats a human emotion?

If adam and eve didn't know right from wrong...beause they had never seen evil and did not know that disobeying was a bad thing (they were innocents), then if the storie did happend why would god punish them?

If god new that Lucifer was gonna rebel and could see the future then that means that there is fate and the future is already determined so why should I be doomed to hell for being an atheist if he knew I was gonna question and not beleive in him...(if god was real)

And if god sees the future then he would have known that adam and eve would be tempted by the serpent and prevent it from happening so every thing could be fine and dandy...And if god is all knowing then he knew that there was evil in the garden of eden...so therefore he must have let that evil in so he could tempt the innocents. And why place a pretty tree of such sort with fruit where two teenagers live that don't know right from wrong that are gonna be curious about it in the first place.... this god... he is a sick dude!

Love comes from God, God is Love...this is my belief.

If you want to take the story literally, he told them that was the only tree they couldn't eat from. They were innocents, not idiots. A child is an innocent; but understands when you tell them "no".

The Future is not set. There are tangents dependent upon your choices.


....and the story of Adam and Eve more than likely didn't happen. As I'd said, it was symbollic and a story borrowed by the ancient Hebrews. It is not that unlike so many other creation stories from various other cultures. Quit being difficult and making me explain the obvious.

K-DOGG
12-14-2006, 11:55 AM
Free Will and an Omniscient God (god who knows everything) are logically impossible dude your contradicting yourself lol :)


No. Just because you can't comprehend a God that can see all possible tangents in the future, it doesn't mean it's a contradiction. I can conceive of it, why can't you?

K-DOGG
12-14-2006, 12:17 PM
very nice points.... thanks for the reply....

i would like to add this question: if God is omniscient, then he knew all along that Lucifer will rebel and at the expense of the suffering of all men.... it would equal the statement that God himself is responsible for the imperfection and suffering of men??? Because if he had known beforehand he should have prevented it (suffering).... After all, God is love, right???

but what the hell.... we are JUST men.... i personally think that God's purpose/goals are beyond our comprehension... well, that's me....

what say you?

Good question....and I have thought about it myself quite a bit. One of the more disturbing stories in the Old Testament for me, personally, is the story of Job. God allowed Satan to do all of those horrible things to Job, just to prove that He knew who Job was and that Job would not renounce Him, regardless of what Satan did to him. That story always has bothered me; but I suppose that's because I'm human. And you very well could be right about God's purpose and goals being too far beyond our ability to understand. I can agree with that; but me being me, I had to come up with a theory...which is off the wall. I'll go ahead and share it; but remember, this is probably a bunch of junk from my creative inner-self.

Ready? Here we go: God knows this life we're in is nothing in the great scheme of things...nothing more than a proving ground of sorts and that true life is everlasting, while this is ultimately just a blip.

The definition I've given myself, and this is just a theory, is that Life on Earth is a filtering process to weed out the bad eggs. I think it's entirely possible that we, like God, have always been, or are just slightly younger. Think of all of mankind as a "Collective Soul", or a giant metaphysical organism with God as the nucleus and evil being an inpurity that is poisoning the whole body. Yeah, I know, it's a weird thought; but stay with me.

God, being the nucleus of this eternal collective, in order to save the whole, had to find a way to perge evil from it and therefore devised a way for us to exist in mortal life/another dimension of physical qualities and limited lifespans, where we would face choices in reference to good and evil and eventually, we'd die from this life and return to the other with the spiritual scarring of our choices in this life etched upon our "souls", so to speak.

I think we may even go through many lifetimes and are born to different "fates" dependent upon the type of life we lived previously, so as to give us the perspective of other individuals, perhaps even individuals similar to ones we had wronged in our previous incarnation. For example, let's say in one life you do good works on one area and help out the poor or who knows what; but you live a relatively good life and treat others well.....but, you are a womanizer and think of women as property and don't think about the emotional harm you do on a personal level. In your next life, you might be born as a woman who has the possibility of her life's path to lead her to a relationship with an unfaitful womanizer who will break your heart and then, you react to that one way or the other after the experience...but, you now know what it feels like. And afterwards, the experience is etched upon your soul along with every positve and negative experience you've ever lived through. In the end, "Judgement Day", would be the time of separating those who learned from their experiences most and still found the righteous way to live from those who always, or eventually always chose the wrong path and did more harm than good.


DISCLAIMER: The opinion above is K-DOGG's and K-DOGG's alone and has no basis in any spiritual doctrine; but is from K-DOGG's brain based on readings from various spiritual doctine. It is not intended to be taken "factually"; but is merely a hypothetical suggestion. ;)

rageinme
12-14-2006, 01:51 PM
It's All About Jesus

Sin City
12-14-2006, 02:16 PM
An all knowing god knows whats going to happen therefor if he knows whats going to happen then there is no free will because the choices you make are predetermined, If there was free will you could do some thing that would surprise god but you cant surprise god with something you do because he already knows you are going to do it. You are saying that god knows whats going to happen if you make this choice or if you choose to make that choice.. Well then your getting into alternate realities and every choice would be an alternate of you in a different dimension or something like that. You seem to know a lot about what god can and can't do..have you met the guy/gal? So god is all knowing then he created us knowing that we were going to cause wars, he knew that Hitler was gonna start a mass genocide and that Stalin was gonna kill millions of his generals and people. Knowing all this he still chose to create us and supposed that life is like one of those choose how you end the story books he would know that many weren't gonna follow in his "love" and commit atrocities like that. But god gets "mad" when people do such evils even though he knew it was going to happen.

Sin City
12-14-2006, 02:21 PM
It's All About Jesus
dude every post you make in here has nothing to do with what we are talking about. Its like your not even reading the discussion or paying attention and blurting out bible quotes and Jesus this and that.. Stop being a cheerleader and get in the conversation. lol

eazy_mas
12-14-2006, 02:44 PM
An all knowing god knows whats going to happen therefor if he knows whats going to happen then there is no free will because the choices you make are predetermined, If there was free will you could do some thing that would surprise god but you cant surprise god with something you do because he already knows you are going to do it. You are saying that god knows whats going to happen if you make this choice or if you choose to make that choice.. Well then your getting into alternate realities and every choice would be an alternate of you in a different dimension or something like that. You seem to know a lot about what god can and can't do..have you met the guy/gal? So god is all knowing then he created us knowing that we were going to cause wars, he knew that Hitler was gonna start a mass genocide and that Stalin was gonna kill millions of his generals and people. Knowing all this he still chose to create us and supposed that life is like one of those choose how you end the story books he would know that many weren't gonna follow in his "love" and commit atrocities like that. But god gets "mad" when people do such evils even though he knew it was going to happen.

God know you destiney but istead of sending people straight to hell or heaven in the day of judgment he would say the didnt i told you the choice you have?

K-DOGG
12-14-2006, 02:51 PM
An all knowing god knows whats going to happen therefor if he knows whats going to happen then there is no free will because the choices you make are predetermined, If there was free will you could do some thing that would surprise god but you cant surprise god with something you do because he already knows you are going to do it. You are saying that god knows whats going to happen if you make this choice or if you choose to make that choice.. 1. Well then your getting into alternate realities and every choice would be an alternate of you in a different dimension or something like that. You seem to know a lot about what god can and can't do..2. have you met the guy/gal? So god is all knowing then he created us knowing that we were going to cause wars, 3. he knew that Hitler was gonna start a mass genocide and that Stalin was gonna kill millions of his generals and people. Knowing all this he still chose to create us and supposed that life is like one of those choose how you end the story books he would know that many weren't gonna follow in his "love" and commit atrocities like that. But god gets "mad" when people do such evils even though he knew it was going to happen.


lol!! Very nice. :)


Okay, here's my response to the highlighted areas:


1. Maybe; but that's beyond my comprehension. I do think that each little choice you make can change the world, or at least the immendiate future within your realm of influnce....mulitplied by 6 Billion people, of course. Whether or not there actually are other universes for every choice is moot because you and I are only living in this one....still, very perceptive on your part. ;)

2. Unnecessary question and rhetorical; but allow me to shock you...yes I have, we have tea every other Sunday and he says you need to wash behind your ears more.

3. If your mom or dad were omniscient and knew every mistake you were going to make and knew every time you were going to disobey, would they choose not to have you in the first place and give you a chance?

rageinme
12-14-2006, 02:54 PM
An all knowing god knows whats going to happen therefor if he knows whats going to happen then there is no free will because the choices you make are predetermined, If there was free will you could do some thing that would surprise god but you cant surprise god with something you do because he already knows you are going to do it. You are saying that god knows whats going to happen if you make this choice or if you choose to make that choice.. Well then your getting into alternate realities and every choice would be an alternate of you in a different dimension or something like that. You seem to know a lot about what god can and can't do..have you met the guy/gal? So god is all knowing then he created us knowing that we were going to cause wars, he knew that Hitler was gonna start a mass genocide and that Stalin was gonna kill millions of his generals and people. Knowing all this he still chose to create us and supposed that life is like one of those choose how you end the story books he would know that many weren't gonna follow in his "love" and commit atrocities like that. But god gets "mad" when people do such evils even though he knew it was going to happen.

GOD knew what was gonna happen,but god give's us choices. But by his mercy and grace he gave his son jesus to die on the cross for are wrong doing.Know matter what we do jesus will love us, even when we let him down he will always forgive us, if we ask. And yes I am a cheerleader for jesus.I was born to work for the lord.

Sin City
12-14-2006, 04:12 PM
GOD knew what was gonna happen,but god give's us choices. But by his mercy and grace he gave his son jesus to die on the cross for are wrong doing.Know matter what we do jesus will love us, even when we let him down he will always forgive us, if we ask. And yes I am a cheerleader for jesus.I was born to work for the lord.
let me get this right...you believe that Adam and Eve sinned right? Because they sinned we have to pay for it? If you commit a crime...should your child have to pay for it? Imagine if it was like that in a court of law. Anyway god punishes all their descendants and them for about 4000 years
(how is this a forgiving benevolent being??)
For about 4000 years humanity carried gods punishment or so called "original sin" then after several thousand years god finally decides to forgive us..
(4000 years is a long time to hold a grudge! don't you think??)
So supposedly gods plan to forgive us..is to have his specially born son purposefully torchered and killed.... . .and only then will he forgive us... uuhhh??? So gods plan to forgive us after punishing us for over 4000 years is to send his son down to the earth and have us purposefully torcher and kill him. What kind of loving benevolent being would want his innocent son torchered and killed to forgive someone else??? doesn't sound like a loving father to me! Why would a kind loving god even require that? why not just forgive us....after 4000 years?? God if real real then is insane!! But here is the thing ask yourself if the bible is true...then was Jesus really the son of god???

Ezekial 37:26-28 Says the Messiah was supposed to build the 3rd temple in Jerusalem.
Did jesus build the 3rd temple?...No!
The Islamic Temple is there instead.
Isaiah 2:4 The Messiah will usher in an era of world peace, and end all hatred, oppression and suffering and disease. There would also be no more wars.....Did he do that..... I believe not!
Isaiah 43:5-6 The Messiah will gather all the Jews back to the land of Israel...Did Jesus do this???...No!
The messiah must be descended on his father's side from King David (Gen. 49:10, Isaiah 11:1, Jeremiah 23:5, Ezekiel 34:23-24)
was he.....NO!
Joseph was not the father of Jesus therefor he was not descended from King David (luke 1:31)
Zachariah 14:9 The messiah will spread universal knowledge of the God of Israel witch will unite humanity as one........I don't think he did that either.

Deutronomy 13:1 (this is a big one) The Messiah will lead the Jewish people to full Torah observance. The Torah says the law will remain binding forever, and anyone coming to change the Torah is immediately identified as a FALSE PROPHET.

Manny Christians know these short comings of their "Messiah" and try to claim that their man "Jesus" will do all of this next time he shows up.. The only problem is that in the Old Testament (where the prophecies of the Messiah reside) There is no one mention or even the the thought or concept of a second coming.
If Jesus had existed according to the bible, he would have been a FRAUD!!

Sin City
12-14-2006, 05:26 PM
lol!! Very nice. :)


Okay, here's my response to the highlighted areas:


1. Maybe; but that's beyond my comprehension. I do think that each little choice you make can change the world, or at least the immendiate future within your realm of influnce....mulitplied by 6 Billion people, of course. Whether or not there actually are other universes for every choice is moot because you and I are only living in this one....still, very perceptive on your part. ;)

2. Unnecessary question and rhetorical; but allow me to shock you...yes I have, we have tea every other Sunday and he says you need to wash behind your ears more.

3. If your mom or dad were omniscient and knew every mistake you were going to make and knew every time you were going to disobey, would they choose not to have you in the first place and give you a chance?
1.yah true, but if theres multiple universes then I have mutiple souls and alot of them or destended for hell because their destinies are already decided....however if I have on soul but theres multi universes then I can't choose what the other me's do so some of me is going to hell and the other is not?
2. well tell that mutha****er he owes me a dollar!
3. If my son was Hitler and knew what he was going to do....No I would not have him
Do your parents have to help you out..No. But they do.
God doesn't "Have" to help us out.... its not his place but he can, and he doesn't! He is a negligent parent if real!

K-DOGG
12-14-2006, 05:36 PM
1.yah true
2. well tell that mutha****er he owes me a dollar!
3. If my son was Hitler and knew what he was going to do....No I would not have him
Do your parents have to help you out..No. But they do.
God doesn't "Have" to help us out.... its not his place but he can, and he doesn't! He is a negligent parent if real!


On Hitler, AYE. I'd a ripped him from the womb with a clotheshanger. ...sorry if that offended anyone; but he was pure evil if such a thing could exist in human form.

:rolleyes: Well, technically, he was psychotic; but still, I'm in agreement is my point on that.

As far as whether he helps us out or not, I say he does, it's just not always apparent as to how he does. Just because a cloud of smoke doesn't appear over the White House and throw Bush out of office, don't think God's not around. :D Once again, apologies for any offense.

Usually, I find, he/she helps through us. Anytime a stranger does something they didn't have to for someone, that's God.....or more specifically, that's the God in him, or God acting through him, or whatever. Of course you could say it's not...like I said, this is what I believe. Other times his "miracles" go unnoticed as a freak coincidence or chance occurence. But, this is all personal interpretation.

Suffice it to say I believe he is still here, he does care, and he will help us if we take steps to help ourselves.

Sin City
12-14-2006, 05:40 PM
On Hitler, AYE. I'd a ripped him from the womb with a clotheshanger. ...sorry if that offended anyone; but he was pure evil if such a thing could exist in human form.

:rolleyes: Well, technically, he was psychotic; but still, I'm in agreement is my point on that.

As far as whether he helps us out or not, I say he does, it's just not always apparent as to how he does. Just because a cloud of smoke doesn't appear over the White House and throw Bush out of office, don't think God's not around. :D Once again, apologies for any offense.

Usually, I find, he/she helps through us. Anytime a stranger does something they didn't have to for someone, that's God.....or more specifically, that's the God in him, or God acting through him, or whatever. Of course you could say it's not...like I said, this is what I believe. Other times his "miracles" go unnoticed as a freak coincidence or chance occurence. But, this is all personal interpretation.

Suffice it to say I believe he is still here, he does care, and he will help us if we take steps to help ourselves.
but I thought u said god cant intervien no matter what?? Its not his place. So he can sometimes but can't others?? and I'm still waiting on the multi universe question... If there is and I have on soul then I can't do anything about the other me's and if they do evil or not...does that mean only some of me goes to hell?? or what if all the me's have different souls...I thought a human only had one? And If so then it still is pre-determined because this me was supposed to make this choice and the other was supposed to make that choice so in reality there is no free will.

Sin City
12-14-2006, 05:49 PM
On Hitler, AYE. I'd a ripped him from the womb with a clotheshanger. ...sorry if that offended anyone; but he was pure evil if such a thing could exist in human form.

:rolleyes: Well, technically, he was psychotic; but still, I'm in agreement is my point on that.

As far as whether he helps us out or not, I say he does, it's just not always apparent as to how he does. Just because a cloud of smoke doesn't appear over the White House and throw Bush out of office, don't think God's not around. :D Once again, apologies for any offense.

Usually, I find, he/she helps through us. Anytime a stranger does something they didn't have to for someone, that's God.....or more specifically, that's the God in him, or God acting through him, or whatever. Of course you could say it's not...like I said, this is what I believe. Other times his "miracles" go unnoticed as a freak coincidence or chance occurence. But, this is all personal interpretation.

Suffice it to say I believe he is still here, he does care, and he will help us if we take steps to help ourselves.

I know you don't believe the stories in the old testament but do you believe Jesus if real was the "Messiah" read what I posted for Rageinme... He didn't fulfill any of the prophecy..And was not a descendant of David. So if real how can you be so sure this guy was the son of god....I would re-write it but I don't feel like typing that much.

K-DOGG
12-14-2006, 05:50 PM
but I thought u said god cant intervien no matter what?? Its not his place. So he can sometimes but can't others?? and I'm still waiting on the multi universe question... If there is and I have on soul then I can't do anything about the other me's and if they do evil or not...does that mean only some of me goes to hell?? or what if all the me's have different souls...I thought a human only had one? And If so then it still is pre-determined because this me was supposed to make this choice and the other was supposed to make that choice so in reality there is no free will.

No, God can do whatever he wants. I said he probably chooses not to because he wants us to work out our own messes. We got ourselves into these messes, God didn't do it....so, we can work our way out. That's what I said.

In answer the the multi-universe question, I'd say there would have to be, logically, mutliple heavens and hells under than scenario.....meaning, wherever you are spiritually in this life, or this dimension, will determine where you end up when you die here.

Also, I don't think your grasping something. You were not destined to make the choices you make; that would be contradictory to free will. You have the power to choose what you do and do not and just because God can see all of those choices, it does not mean that your future and/or fate isn't still in flux. Your fate has not been determined yet. God can just see all of them at once, and the perspectve changes each time you make a decision which is relative to the final outcome.

The Human does have one soul and only one; but if you want to talk about parallell universes, then you have to allow each of the other "yous" to have their own souls so that you are not responsible for their individual fates or they yours.

K-DOGG
12-14-2006, 05:53 PM
I know you don't believe the stories in the old testament but do you believe Jesus if real was the "Messiah" read what I posted for Rageinme... He didn't fulfill any of the prophecy..And was not a descendant of David. So if real how can you be so sure this guy was the son of god....I would re-write it but I don't feel like typing that much.

No need. I did read it and was very impressed with your thoroughness. In all honesty, I'm going to have to think on that and get back to you, for such a thorough question, or post, requires a thorough response; and I will give you one, just not at the moment because I honestly haven't thought about that aspect in quite some time. I will get back to you though, promise.

Sin City
12-14-2006, 05:58 PM
No need. I did read it and was very impressed with your thoroughness. In all honesty, I'm going to have to think on that and get back to you, for such a thorough question, or post, requires a thorough response; and I will give you one, just not at the moment because I honestly haven't thought about that aspect in quite some time. I will get back to you though, promise.
Its all I ask for... thank you! lol :) I look forward to the reply!

rageinme
12-14-2006, 06:06 PM
let me get this right...you believe that Adam and Eve sinned right? Because they sinned we have to pay for it? If you commit a crime...should your child have to pay for it? Imagine if it was like that in a court of law. Anyway god punishes all their descendants and them for about 4000 years
(how is this a forgiving benevolent being??)
For about 4000 years humanity carried gods punishment or so called "original sin" then after several thousand years god finally decides to forgive us..
(4000 years is a long time to hold a grudge! don't you think??)
So supposedly gods plan to forgive us..is to have his specially born son purposefully torchered and killed.... . .and only then will he forgive us... uuhhh??? So gods plan to forgive us after punishing us for over 4000 years is to send his son down to the earth and have us purposefully torcher and kill him. What kind of loving benevolent being would want his innocent son torchered and killed to forgive someone else??? doesn't sound like a loving father to me! Why would a kind loving god even require that? why not just forgive us....after 4000 years?? God if real real then is insane!! But here is the thing ask yourself if the bible is true...then was Jesus really the son of god???

Ezekial 37:26-28 Says the Messiah was supposed to build the 3rd temple in Jerusalem.
Did jesus build the 3rd temple?...No!
The Islamic Temple is there instead.
Isaiah 2:4 The Messiah will usher in an era of world peace, and end all hatred, oppression and suffering and disease. There would also be no more wars.....Did he do that..... I believe not!
Isaiah 43:5-6 The Messiah will gather all the Jews back to the land of Israel...Did Jesus do this???...No!
The messiah must be descended on his father's side from King David (Gen. 49:10, Isaiah 11:1, Jeremiah 23:5, Ezekiel 34:23-24)
was he.....NO!
Joseph was not the father of Jesus therefor he was not descended from King David (luke 1:31)
Zachariah 14:9 The messiah will spread universal knowledge of the God of Israel witch will unite humanity as one........I don't think he did that either.

Deutronomy 13:1 (this is a big one) The Messiah will lead the Jewish people to full Torah observance. The Torah says the law will remain binding forever, and anyone coming to change the Torah is immediately identified as a FALSE PROPHET.

Manny Christians know these short comings of their "Messiah" and try to claim that their man "Jesus" will do all of this next time he shows up.. The only problem is that in the Old Testament (where the prophecies of the Messiah reside) There is no one mention or even the the thought or concept of a second coming.
If Jesus had existed according to the bible, he would have been a FRAUD!!

As surely as I live,says the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of wicked people.I only want them to turn from their wicked ways so they can live. Turn! Turn from wickedness...Why should you die ..EZEKIEL 33:11

K-DOGG
12-14-2006, 06:11 PM
As surely as I live,says the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of wicked people.I only want them to turn from their wicked ways so they can live. Turn! Turn from wickedness...Why should you die ..EZEKIEL 33:11

With all due respect, "Kid's" not being wicked, he's inquiring. He's citing legitimate Bible verses which supposedly point to the coming of the Messiah and is seeking a counter-point. There is no wickedness in questioning why one believes something.

K-DOGG
12-14-2006, 06:14 PM
Its all I ask for... thank you! lol :) I look forward to the reply!


lol!! It honestly might be tomorrow or a little later; but I will get back to that post. Props, by the way. ;)

Sin City
12-14-2006, 06:29 PM
As surely as I live,says the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of wicked people.I only want them to turn from their wicked ways so they can live. Turn! Turn from wickedness...Why should you die ..EZEKIEL 33:11
Uummm... what does that have to do with what I asked you?? lol

Sin City
12-14-2006, 06:32 PM
lol!! It honestly might be tomorrow or a little later; but I will get back to that post. Props, by the way. ;)
Yah thanks, I had some help from my Jewish friend...Some of those are the same reasons the Jews don't believe he was the son of god. you have put a lot of questions in my head and have stimulated me to think so I thank you. No matter how young or old you can always learn something new! ;)

Ta Khent
12-14-2006, 07:29 PM
The Bible as we know today is derived from the ancient Khemetic belief system (school of spiritual development and the oldest religion in the world), but was corrupted by the Greeks and Romans who formed the Doctrine of Christianity.

Sin City
12-14-2006, 08:00 PM
The Bible as we know today is derived from the ancient Khemetic belief system (school of spiritual development and the oldest religion in the world), but was corrupted by the Greeks and Romans who formed the Doctrine of Christianity.
the bible no...maybe the new testament, But the Torah has been the same since the beginning of the Jewish religion.

Larry Merchant
12-14-2006, 08:04 PM
The question is this, I suppose....if there is no God, why be moral? If man does not have a soul nor an eternal essence....why worry about such things as doing unto others as you would have done unto you?

If there's no referee, why fight fair?

I really hate the way you think. But I love as a poster on BS.

Ta Khent
12-14-2006, 08:07 PM
the bible no...maybe the new testament, But the Torah has been the same since the beginning of the Jewish religion.


Before there was a Jewish religion, there was the Khemetic religion, the original religion.

7001
12-14-2006, 08:50 PM
It's not just the whole God or no God thing. There are consequences for everything you do. Where there is an action, there is a reaction. Kill some one and you go to jail.

I think the idea behind the bible when it was first written was to guide people down the right path. I truly don't think it was ever meant to be taken literally. I think it was meant to be taken as a story or multiple stories if you will.

Through most religions it's basically the same story told over and over. Why does the Knight In Shining Armor all ways die at an early age, and in a brave and courageous way. It makes them immortal. Who wants to have an 102 year old, decrepit and arthritic God? Same stories different books.

rageinme
12-15-2006, 12:57 AM
Uummm... what does that have to do with what I asked you?? lol

DEUTERONOMY 1:43
2 KINGS 17:14
1 SAMUEL 8:19
PSALM 18:11-12
EXODUS 33:5