View Full Version : 1974 Ali vs 1963 Ali


fistlegend
08-07-2006, 06:56 PM
Ok, which version of Ali is better? The one that beat Sonny Liston [1963] or the one that beat George Foreman [1974].

Ali once said during his hyping of the Foreman fight that he is better now then he was when he was challenging Sonny liston for the title, but what do you think?

IMO, The 1963 Ali, He had a speed + endurance + better reflexes advantage, but the 1974 ali had more experiece [ring science] + alittle more power

K-DOGG
08-07-2006, 07:11 PM
Well, first off, Ali or Clay fought Liston in '64, not '63; but I know what you mean.

And, I'll say this, Ali after the layoff did not punch as hard as he did beforehand due to hand problems. Dr. Pachecho has said that after the layoff, Ali's hands hurt him constantly and he had to give Ali shots of novacane between each knuckle before every fight in his second career.

That being said, Clay in 1964, was faster, hit harder, and was decidely more mobile than Ali was post 1970. Who would win?

I'd have to favor Clay. Ali had more experience it's true; but he wasn't a great stalker, so to speak, in his second career. In his first career he danced circles around guys; but he also attacked while he danced...something an old Ali didn't really do.

I'd pick Clay to win by a decision.

THE REAL NINJA
08-07-2006, 07:17 PM
For right now i'll go with the upset and say that Ali uses some type of rope a dope on himself.yes he hit harder and was faster but old Ali had so much more knowledge and seemed to me to be calm in the ring where as clay was more hyper and in a rush to make the ko happen in round he called .

K-DOGG
08-07-2006, 07:19 PM
For right now i'll go with the upset and say that Ali uses some type of rope a dope on himself.yes he hit harder and was faster but old Ali had so much more knowledge and seemed to me to be calm in the ring where as clay was more hyper and in a rush to make the ko happen in round he called .

Good point. I didn't even take into consideration that Ali knew everything about Clay; but Clay knows nothing about Ali. Knowledge is a huge advantage....and Ali could conceivably time Clay coming in because he'd know he would come in before Clay would.

Can I change my vote? :confused:

Southpaw Stinger
08-07-2006, 07:43 PM
I think the 74 Ali would win.

Although 66 Ali is the best.

Hard Boiled HK
08-07-2006, 10:14 PM
I like the 1971 Ali. Dr. Pachecho said that if Ali would have rested an additional two months after fighting Bonavena (so fighting Frazier in May instead of March of 1971), he would have won. Pachecho said he needed time to recover after the two "tune-up" fights and then train afterwards, but because the Supreme Court hasn't made a judgement yet, Ali didn't know if he would be in jail by May. He decided to not follow Pachecho's advice and fight first so he can get the money as early as possible. In 1971, he was bigger and stronger than in 1964, a little slower but still a fast heavyweight. And in 1971 his hands weren't hurting yet.

NJFighter91
08-07-2006, 11:13 PM
I think 64' Ali was better. He was faster, stronger, etc. He was physically the better fighter but 74' Ali was mentally stronger.

my vote goes for 64'

Frazier's 15th round
08-07-2006, 11:58 PM
Dr. Pachecho said

"Doctor" Pacheco is full of ****, and came up with excuse after excuse every time Ali either lost or had a tough fight. I bet if you asked Yank Durham and Eddie Futch how the fight would have gone down in May instead of March, they'd say Frazier would win. Imagine that.

Hard Boiled HK
08-08-2006, 12:05 AM
"Doctor" Pacheco is full of ****, and came up with excuse after excuse every time Ali either lost or had a tough fight. I bet if you asked Yank Durham and Eddie Futch how the fight would have gone down in May instead of March, they'd say Frazier would win. Imagine that.


Why would you put the word doctor in quotes? He IS a doctor and he DOES have a PhD.

RockyMarcianofan00
08-08-2006, 01:11 AM
I don't know 64' Ali was still a bit green while 74 ali had a bit more ring expierence and overall was smarter...On the other hand 64 Ali had more stamina and handspeed/footwork, while 74 Ali was a bit slower and tired faster....It's hard to tell honestly because its youth vs smarts...

74 Ali had a better chin (more physically matured), and arguabley more heart while 64 Ali had speed, stamina and all that....

sleazyfellow
08-08-2006, 06:20 AM
cassius would of made the older ali look pretty bad, as he did with most of his opponents, his handspeed and footwork would b too much for the older slower ali..and like i said b4 in an older thread, cassius clay is a slave name and we all know slaves were tough mofos!

Dempsey 1919
08-11-2006, 03:33 AM
I don't know 64' Ali was still a bit green while 74 ali had a bit more ring expierence and overall was smarter...On the other hand 64 Ali had more stamina and handspeed/footwork, while 74 Ali was a bit slower and tired faster....It's hard to tell honestly because its youth vs smarts...

74 Ali had a better chin (more physically matured), and arguabley more heart while 64 Ali had speed, stamina and all that....

64' clay would win a ud. Their chins were the same, because although 22yr old clay's chin wasn't 100% yet, 32yr olsd ali was starting to decline.

Southpaw Stinger
08-11-2006, 09:10 AM
32yr olsd ali was starting to decline.

I don't know it couldn't have declined that much. He still fought a Manila and went 15 rounds with Shavers without being knocked off his feet.

Yaman
08-11-2006, 09:26 AM
I actually think Ali's chin became better. Just like many figters like Foreman etc.

Clays chin wasnt even close to the Prime Alis chin.

Southpaw Stinger
08-11-2006, 12:23 PM
Clays chin wasnt even close to the Prime Alis chin.

And Clay didn't take half as much punishment as he later did as Ali.

K-DOGG
08-11-2006, 12:24 PM
Chins don't become better. A man may get knocked down early in his career due to lack of confidence or lack of determination; but the bones in his chin and the connecting nerves are the same. If anything chins get worse with time. Just as a Rock will disintergrate (sp) the more times you chip away at it with a sledge, so will a fighter's chin gradually decline with age and punishment.

Southpaw Stinger
08-11-2006, 12:32 PM
Chins don't become better. A man may get knocked down early in his career due to lack of confidence or lack of determination; but the bones in his chin and the connecting nerves are the same. If anything chins get worse with time. Just as a Rock will disintergrate (sp) the more times you chip away at it with a sledge, so will a fighter's chin gradually decline with age and punishment.

Maybe it's got somthing to do with fighters being heavier and more flat footed later in their careers?

Yaman
08-11-2006, 12:34 PM
Ok, so maybe its not genetic. but i still believe that somehow(Like you said, confidence etc) a fighters ability to take a punch can become better with time.

K-DOGG
08-11-2006, 12:38 PM
Maybe it's got somthing to do with fighters being heavier and more flat footed later in their careers?

To quote Larry Merchant, George had the same chin at 217 that he had at 257....the chin didn't gain any weight.

K-DOGG
08-11-2006, 12:40 PM
Ok, so maybe its not genetic. but i still believe that somehow(Like you said, confidence etc) a fighters ability to take a punch can become better with time.

Maybe; but I have no doubt that Sonny Liston was just as confident against Leotis Martin as he was against Cleveland Williams or Floyd Patterson.

K-DOGG
08-11-2006, 12:54 PM
Here's a suggestion. When a fighter begins his career, most of the time he doesn't want to get hit or like getting hit; but as his carreer progresses, he gets used to getting hit, accepts it as part of the game and doesn't feel "right" if he doestn' get his dose of pain, so to speak....so, he expects to get hit, whereas a younger man may expect to get hit; but doestn' really accept it as a possibility and does everything he can to keep it from happening. So, when he gets caught with a good one, he goes down because he didn't anticipate it.

It is a common addage that the punch that knocks you out is the one you didn't see. I suggest that a veteran fighte may have the appearance of having a "better" chin; but in reality, he is just more ready for the contact and therefore not as effected by it....until the concrete has been chipped away to the point to where he doesn't have a choice.

Heckler
08-14-2006, 04:08 AM
Ali's chin in the late sixties was just as good as ever... he wasn't knocked down or hurt between 64-67. This topic come up in one of my physiology papers at uni... When we say 'chin' we are referring to the brains ability to keep functioning in moments of impact. After physical maturity (avg age 23-24... decline avg after age 28)its impossible to develop a better 'chin'. In 1966 against Cleveland Williams Ali weighed 213 pounds, a pound heavier then he was in the rematch against Ken Norton in 1973... His upper body musculature was just as as good as it ever would be. Ali was physically mature at this point in his career. Very early in his career when he was dropped he was naieve, very green, and lacking the prowess in the ring he developed later..... against Sonny banks he was a mere 195 pounds, he got tagged with a left and banks scored a flash knockdown... Clay was more shocked then hurt and continued on. Against Cooper he was clowning around, coasting and attempting to carry Cooper into the round he predicted he would win in. He got tagged by a short, sharp, left hook right on the button that he didn't see coming and was in real trouble... This would never happen in the first place later in his career.

Dempsey 1919
08-18-2006, 02:25 AM
Ali's chin in the late sixties was just as good as ever... he wasn't knocked down or hurt between 64-67. This topic come up in one of my physiology papers at uni... When we say 'chin' we are referring to the brains ability to keep functioning in moments of impact. After physical maturity (avg age 23-24... decline avg after age 28)its impossible to develop a better 'chin'. In 1966 against Cleveland Williams Ali weighed 213 pounds, a pound heavier then he was in the rematch against Ken Norton in 1973... His upper body musculature was just as as good as it ever would be. Ali was physically mature at this point in his career. Very early in his career when he was dropped he was naieve, very green, and lacking the prowess in the ring he developed later..... against Sonny banks he was a mere 195 pounds, he got tagged with a left and banks scored a flash knockdown... Clay was more shocked then hurt and continued on. Against Cooper he was clowning around, coasting and attempting to carry Cooper into the round he predicted he would win in. He got tagged by a short, sharp, left hook right on the button that he didn't see coming and was in real trouble... This would never happen in the first place later in his career.

Good post.