View Full Version : Top Ten Journeymen.....know what a Journeyman is?


K-DOGG
07-31-2006, 02:13 PM
Here's the criteria and category of fighters....


1. Champion
2. Contender
3. Fringe Contender
4. Journeyman
5. Trial Horse
6. Ham-n-Egger


A Journeyman is a fighter that can beat a champion on any given night due to his skill and heart; but generally isn't in the best of shape because of fighting too frequently or not being able to focus solely on boxing because of his regular job and need to pay the bills. Most are "Journeymen" due to bad breaks and bad management; but not due to lack of ability. These are the guys that are the preverbial "jack of all trades but masters of none"....they are just a notch below; but on any given night, can win it all. They fight the best and most of the time they lose....they are the fighters that will prove if your young prospect is the real thing or not because they will either make him or break him. Here's to the Journeymen....the backbone of boxing.

(Don't confuse a one-time contender who has slipped into journeyman status with a true journeyman.)....example: Ross Purity was a journeyman as was Oliver McCall before he won the title and Bert Cooper.

So....


Who are the Top Ten best p4p Journeymen ever?
Who are the Top Ten best heavyweight Journeymen ever?

RAESAAD
07-31-2006, 02:16 PM
Emanual Augustus (Burton) is a P4P best journeyman.......**** I don't think there is another fighter ever to have 25+ losses and be as good as this guy...... :boxing:

K-DOGG
07-31-2006, 03:42 PM
For starters, if I were going to pick the Top 10 Heavyweight Journeymen of the last 20 years, my list would probably look like this:

1.-Oliver McCall..so good he actually won a championship

2.-Bert Cooper....hot and cold; but when he was hot, look out

3.-Mike Hunter....so good he was avoided by most

4.-Ross Purity...beat Joe Hipp, Wladimir Klisthko, and drew with Tommy Morrison

5.-James Tillis...slick when he was on, many a contender met the "Punching Cowboy" in the ring to earn his rep

6.-Tyrell Biggs...this former Olympian was always oh-so close to the top and gave nearly everyone a tough go; but lacked the stamina and mentality to close the big shows

7.-Art Tucker....a bit chinny; but he could take you out with one shot

8.-Jesse Ferguson...A staple in the heavyweight division for nearly 10 years; there are very few who made it to the top without getting by "The Boogeyman".

9.-Jose Ribalta...took Tyson into the tenth; and everybody wanted a piece of Jose for the rest of his career....a must stop for any contender in the late-80's and early 90's

10.-Wimpy Halstead...this tough S.O.B. was no wimp



I'm going to have to think a bit more for All-Time Heavy and surely p4p; but knowing there are so many knowledgeable posters here...I was hoping some of you guys could kick-start my list.


BTW....Raesaad....Great post. I don't know if I quite agree; but an argument could be made.

platinummatt
07-31-2006, 04:09 PM
Here's the criteria and category of fighters....


1. Champion
2. Contender
3. Fringe Contender
4. Journeyman
5. Trial Horse
6. Ham-n-Egger


A Journeyman is a fighter that can beat a champion on any given night due to his skill and heart; but generally isn't in the best of shape because of fighting too frequently or not being able to focus solely on boxing because of his regular job and need to pay the bills. Most are "Journeymen" due to bad breaks and bad management; but not due to lack of ability. These are the guys that are the preverbial "jack of all trades but masters of none"....they are just a notch below; but on any given night, can win it all. They fight the best and most of the time they lose....they are the fighters that will prove if your young prospect is the real thing or not because they will either make him or break him. Here's to the Journeymen....the backbone of boxing.

(Don't confuse a one-time contender who has slipped into journeyman status with a true journeyman.)....example: Ross Purity was a journeyman as was Oliver McCall before he won the title and Bert Cooper.

So....


Who are the Top Ten best p4p Journeymen ever?
Who are the Top Ten best heavyweight Journeymen ever?]#
Thats confused me buddy, if a journeyman is a fighter who can beat a champion on any given night, surely he would be champion?

K-DOGG
07-31-2006, 04:11 PM
]#
Thats confused me buddy, if a journeyman is a fighter who can beat a champion on any given night, surely he would be champion?

...nope. for it to happen, the champion has to take him lightly and the journeyman has to actually put it all together for once in his life.

Playground
08-01-2006, 01:48 AM
Sanderline Williams was never a push-over, always forced his opponents to think, some smart moves and decent countering.

Dye
08-01-2006, 01:51 AM
Ross Purity was good when he wanted to be, he had no Amatuer expirence

THE REAL NINJA
08-06-2006, 07:09 PM
don't know if they count but ...Livingstone Bramble,Darryl Tyson,Charles Murray,

Scottie2Hottie
08-06-2006, 07:32 PM
i'll rep mickey ward to the grave. that guy made a pretty big splash considering he was a ****ing steamroller driver.

Talking Turkey
08-06-2006, 07:52 PM
Yeah Sanderline Williams is a good pick.

eazy_mas
08-07-2006, 11:47 AM
There is Holyfield and Forman.

King Koyle
08-07-2006, 12:07 PM
i'll rep mickey ward to the grave. that guy made a pretty big splash considering he was a ****ing steamroller driver.

Well said!!!

King Koyle
08-07-2006, 12:09 PM
How about Ingemar Johansson(Sp)?

K-DOGG
08-07-2006, 01:50 PM
How about Ingemar Johansson(Sp)?

Johanson was a champ and only lost in title bouts to one man, Floyd Patterson. I think that puts him above "Journeyman".

RockyMarcianofan00
08-08-2006, 01:06 AM
Earnie Shavers...If his chin was better he would be able to go with Foreman better IMO...

Archie Moore, I'm not gunna say he could beat any champion even if he put all his tools together but the guy was a hell of a fighter...

Smashing
08-08-2006, 04:09 AM
thats a one helluva great picture..

Southpaw Stinger
08-08-2006, 08:57 AM
thats a one helluva great picture..

Indeed.

I wish Holmes would get his hands off Ali.

THE REAL NINJA
08-08-2006, 09:17 AM
I think most of the people named were more on the level of contenders not journeymen :confused: it's kinda hard Rocky Gannon was a "journey" he was never champ and was only a "contender" for a short time . Shavers was a "contender" most of his era and had [more then one title shot <right ? Finge contender I think of as someone like Kirk Johnson who has been in and out as a contender...

THE REAL NINJA
08-08-2006, 09:19 AM
I think most of the people named were more on the level of contenders not journeymen :confused: it's kinda hard Rocky Gannon was a "journey" he was never champ and was only a "contender" for a short time . Shavers was a "contender" most of his era and had [more then one title shot <right ? Finge contender I think of as someone like Kirk Johnson who has been in and out as a contender...
Finge contender I think of as someone like Kirk Johnson who has been in and out as a contender...dont know why it didnt show up ???....and that was not a dis Kirk all respect to you :)

Southpaw Stinger
08-08-2006, 12:26 PM
Earnie Shavers definatly wasn't a journeyman.

Dye
08-08-2006, 01:00 PM
Earnie Shavers definatly wasn't a journeyman.
shavers was a contender, he beat i think ken Norton by KO in the first that sure is not a journymen

THE REAL NINJA
10-06-2006, 10:18 AM
Marion Wilson the names on his rec :hail: http://www.boxrec.com/boxer_display.php?boxer_id=004537

Phantasm
10-06-2006, 11:24 AM
Here's the criteria and category of fighters....


1. Champion
2. Contender
3. Fringe Contender
4. Journeyman
5. Trial Horse
6. Ham-n-Egger


A Journeyman is a fighter that can beat a champion on any given night due to his skill and heart; but generally isn't in the best of shape because of fighting too frequently or not being able to focus solely on boxing because of his regular job and need to pay the bills. Most are "Journeymen" due to bad breaks and bad management; but not due to lack of ability. These are the guys that are the preverbial "jack of all trades but masters of none"....they are just a notch below; but on any given night, can win it all. They fight the best and most of the time they lose....they are the fighters that will prove if your young prospect is the real thing or not because they will either make him or break him. Here's to the Journeymen....the backbone of boxing.

(Don't confuse a one-time contender who has slipped into journeyman status with a true journeyman.)....example: Ross Purity was a journeyman as was Oliver McCall before he won the title and Bert Cooper.

So....


Who are the Top Ten best p4p Journeymen ever?
Who are the Top Ten best heavyweight Journeymen ever?

What about Gatekeeper...the guy who prospects fight because he has challenged for a few titles but always comes up short and beating them puts their name in the mix for title shots.

K-DOGG
10-24-2006, 06:07 PM
What about Gatekeeper...the guy who prospects fight because he has challenged for a few titles but always comes up short and beating them puts their name in the mix for title shots.


I'd say a gate-keeper is somewhere between a really good journeyman and a fringe contender.

SuzieQ49
10-28-2006, 09:42 PM
the greatest journeyman of all time is tiger ted lowry

Yogi
10-29-2006, 12:50 PM
Tiger Ted Lowry W-10 Rocky Marciano

Dye
10-29-2006, 01:51 PM
ross puritty

SuzieQ49
10-29-2006, 04:08 PM
Tiger Ted Lowry W-10 Rocky Marciano


actually rocky marciano W 10 tiger ted lowry 2x!!! 2nd time marciano won 9 out of 10 rounds



the first fight being a robbery is a complete myth. rocky was the effective aggresor, he beat up tiger ted to the body the whole night. rocky won the last 6 rounds of the fight. lowrys great defensive skills and experience allowed him to outbox a very raw marciano for some rounds, but rocky clearly won the fight. rocky fought too win, lowry didnt.


i spoke to rockys brother personally and he told me "the lowry fight is one of the biggest myths. lowry hardly threw any punches, he only fought to survive."- peter marciano


peter did tell me the lastarza fight was extremely close and could have gone either way, but he made sure he clarified rocky clearly won the lowry fight.

AJ53
10-29-2006, 04:24 PM
without doubt britains top journeyman is peter buckley,
http://boxrec.com/boxer_display.php?boxer_id=3372
the saying have shorts will travel is probably this guys middle name.

the jouneyman is the unsung hero of the sport,
he's the guy that every promoter has his number in their phone.
i mean there is alot of fighters out there who can put on a pair of gloves and accept a purse but guys like peter buckley altough he has over 200 losses on his record come into the ring in fighting shape,
even if he just got the call to fight 20 minutes before.
he will fight anybody anywhere no questions asked, he is without doubt a promoters dream.
if you look at his record and think this guy is a tomato can you would be wrong i've seen him fight many times and i honestly dont think ive ever seen this guy in trouble.

a few other names that spring to mind are paul bonson and wayne shepard.
i know nobody will have heard of them because they are british and never mentioned outside of the boxing community.
but for me thats what a journeyman is!!!
he's the guy that everybody has seen fight but they dont know his name.

there is probably thousands of journeymen all over america that nobody has heard of outside of that state.
but to rate a top ten would be almost impossible imo,
there has been alot of journey's turned champ like johnny nelson carlos baldomir glen johnson and to some extent even winky had to travel to get fights and he is now rated as a ***163;4***163; fighter.

Rockin'
10-29-2006, 04:37 PM
Emanual Augustus (Burton) is a P4P best journeyman.......**** I don't think there is another fighter ever to have 25+ losses and be as good as this guy...... :boxing:

Freddy Pendelton ended up winning a world title with a similar amount of loses.

Rockin':boxing:

Yogi
10-29-2006, 06:26 PM
actually rocky marciano W 10 tiger ted lowry 2x!!! 2nd time marciano won 9 out of 10 rounds



the first fight being a robbery is a complete myth. rocky was the effective aggresor, he beat up tiger ted to the body the whole night. rocky won the last 6 rounds of the fight. lowrys great defensive skills and experience allowed him to outbox a very raw marciano for some rounds, but rocky clearly won the fight. rocky fought too win, lowry didnt.


i spoke to rockys brother personally and he told me "the lowry fight is one of the biggest myths. lowry hardly threw any punches, he only fought to survive."- peter marciano


peter did tell me the lastarza fight was extremely close and could have gone either way, but he made sure he clarified rocky clearly won the lowry fight.

LOL.

I knew I'd get a reaction out of you, my friend, which is all I was doing with that previous post...

Although, I still don't see how you can be so confident that Marciano got the better of things when the fight is unavailable for viewing nowadays, and instead we have to rely on reports from those eyewitnesses who actually saw the fight.

Oh, and Peter Marciano is certainly not an objective opinion on that fight, as you very well know, especially when he was only a little kid when that fight happened...His biased opinion means next to nothing in regards to what happened in that fight. And seeing as you're likely to come back with some quote from Sam Silverman (from page 125 of Marciano's bio) stating that "The kid gave Lowry a bad body beating", I'll have you know that even the fight reports that state Lowry should've won (6 rounds to 4) indicate that Marciano was constantly attacking Lowry's body ("unending body attack", "concentrate wholly on the body", etc., etc.). No where in that book does it actually give Silverman's definate opinion as to who actually won the fight, and as I told you on a different forum, you can find similiar quotes to Silverman's in reference to Chuvalo's body attack on Ali in their first fight...Doesn't mean Chuvalo won the fight or was even close to winning it, though, does it?

Yogi
10-29-2006, 06:29 PM
P.S. Have you had trouble getting onto ESB over the last week or so, Brockton?

I'm just curious if it's happening to anybody else, as I haven't been able to access that site in quite some time.

wmute
10-29-2006, 06:48 PM
does charley burley meet the journeyman qualification standards?

!!! Beowulf !!!
10-29-2006, 08:39 PM
Johnny Nelson was definately a journeyman, 12 losses, boxed around the world. Whatever you think of his style and tactics the guy did really well with his career in the end.


As for British level journeyman, I'd like to mention John "Buster" Keeton who is now British Cruiserweight Champion at the 4th time of asking after beating fellow journeyman Lee Swaby (who holds a win over Enzo Maccarinelli) by TKO. Keeton is a rugged brawler who fairly recently lost to Mark Hobson but managed to floor him in the first round. His losses are into double figures, but now holds the famous Lonsdale belt. Bit of a fairytale for him.

RockyMarcianofan00
10-30-2006, 03:37 AM
Journeyman thats rarely mentioned is the Ol' Mongoose Archie Moore....I wouldn't say he could beat any champion but he had the smarts and heart of a true champion....

now I got to go back a page to see what Yogi's talking about with marciano :D

RockyMarcianofan00
10-30-2006, 03:39 AM
obviously Lowry was one of Marciano's Amateur fights if he lost....anyway if it wer a pro fight then I'd give it to Marciano. This is because if he almost beat guy that was one of his first 12 fights then he could definitely beat him when he got more fights under his belt...

sry if that didn't make sense or something I'm half asleep...

K-DOGG
10-30-2006, 01:28 PM
does charley burley meet the journeyman qualification standards?


No, 'fraid Burley was a bonafied contender who got ducked.

KingDosia
10-30-2006, 07:35 PM
Glenn Johnson comes to mind

K-DOGG
10-30-2006, 07:37 PM
Glenn Johnson comes to mind

Johnson could pass for a journeyman... yeah, I'll agree with that. Good call. :fing02:

BigMKO
10-31-2006, 08:19 AM
Carlos Baldomir was a journeyman at one stage.

K-DOGG
10-31-2006, 12:48 PM
Carlos Baldomir was a journeyman at one stage.

Yup, correct-a-mundo.

AJ53
11-01-2006, 07:25 AM
http://boxrec.com/boxer_display.php?boxer_id=004741
this guy should make the list just for his number of fights.

eazy_mas
11-01-2006, 09:39 AM
Emanual Augustus (Burton) is a P4P best journeyman.......**** I don't think there is another fighter ever to have 25+ losses and be as good as this guy...... :boxing:

I will go with you.

you dont see much guy with 25 losses in the TV or giving them a chance.

I guess his fooling around makes him entertaining.

Sharmba Mitchell, Evander Holyfield, Aruto Gatti

Dempsey 1919
11-01-2006, 06:45 PM
http://boxrec.com/boxer_display.php?boxer_id=004741
this guy should make the list just for his number of fights.

That guy sucks.

Animal Squabbs
11-09-2006, 02:01 AM
Wicky Ward, Emanuel Augustus, Peter Jackson, and Glenn Johnson count

Mr. Ryan
11-09-2006, 02:47 PM
Boxing is a sport preeminently populated by bums and stiffs. A stiff is a guy who is barely getting by with their ****. A stiff works at Wendy's and barely scrapes by on his salary. A bum is someone who has fallen out of the job market, someone who is sitting at home cuz he ain't got nowheres else to be.

Journeymen fall in the place of stiffs, they're scraping by going from city to city looking for a paycheck, come giving their best accounts but many disheartened by their disposition as an opponent.

Carlos Baldomir, Glen Johnson, and Emmanuel Augustus are the best journeymen today because they have the mentality of winners. Lovemore N'Dou also falls into that place. They will go all over the world to any city on short notice and make their money, giving their best efforts only to find that their lack of a strong promotional backing and punching power to be their greatest detriment.

Saoul Mamby is my favorite journeyman of all time, Freddie Pendleton also.

El Pollo LoCo
11-09-2006, 09:39 PM
look to the left of ur screen and look to the bottom, i think u know who i pick

the giant one
11-10-2006, 02:14 PM
harold brazier was a damn good journeyman

Southpaw Stinger
11-10-2006, 02:55 PM
harold brazier was a damn good journeyman


indeed he was. :boxing:

K-DOGG
11-11-2006, 11:56 AM
harold brazier was a damn good journeyman

One of my favorites....and his contemporaries: Kevin Pompey, Buck Smith, Ray Olivera....several very good journeymen in that lightweight/jr welterweight/welterweight class.

Chups
11-11-2006, 01:28 PM
My vote goes to Bazooka Limon.

JAB5239
12-05-2008, 08:41 AM
I read Larry Holmes autobiography and he talks about a fighter from the 70's named Roy Williams. Both he and Williams were sparring partners for ali at the same time. Holmes sys in his book that if it wasn't for bad management Roy would have been one of the most talked about fighters of that era.

There were two really funny stories he tells in his book, about Williams. One of them was, after describing how mean Williams was, about being on the same card as Roy and coming out to cheer him on since they were both in the same camp. Holmes tells about yelling for Roy, trying to show his support, when Williams turns to him in the middle of the round and says "shut the **** up!!".

The other one was Williams feeling Ali shortchanged him on some money owed. Him and Ali had words that ended with Roy calling "*****", "******", and other derogatory remarks. Ali didn't take kindly to thios so he set up a 10 round sparring session the next day. For 10 round Williams gave as good as he took and just kept on with the name calling every round.
Well, Ali still wasn't satisfied and wanted to teach Williams a lesson and set up another 10 rounds for the next day. Same thing as the first time. Williams kept up the verbal abuse and gave as good as he got again. When it was over Ali had had enough. He gave Williams the money owed and told him to hit the road.

Now I'd be lying if I said I knew more about Williams then what I read in the Holmes book. But going by that and looking at his record.....this guy must have been one helluva scary "journeyman".

Anybody know anything more about him?

TheGreatA
12-05-2008, 09:26 AM
I don't think Roy Williams was really a journeyman, he had a pretty good record.

He almost got a win over Earnie Shavers that would've surely made him a top ranked heavyweight contender but Earnie made one of the most amazing comebacks of all time in the 10th and last round to stop Williams.

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TheGreatA
12-05-2008, 09:39 AM
Archie Moore, I'm not gunna say he could beat any champion even if he put all his tools together but the guy was a hell of a fighter...

Journeyman thats rarely mentioned is the Ol' Mongoose Archie Moore....I wouldn't say he could beat any champion but he had the smarts and heart of a true champion....

now I got to go back a page to see what Yogi's talking about with marciano :D

:thinking::thinking::thinking:

marciano1952
12-05-2008, 06:12 PM
:thinking::thinking::thinking:


yeah I Guess that guy donset know much about history of this Sport

jreckoning
12-05-2008, 07:39 PM
Sammy Sparkman
Emmanuel Augustus
Marcus Rhode
Garing Lane
Reggie Strickland
and now Carl Daniels
are the dictionary definition of journeyman, ready to battle anyone, anytime.

mcentepede
12-05-2008, 09:42 PM
Bramble was a very good fighter, he was relatively unknown when he beat Boom Boom Mancini twice and then was a top lightweight for at least 5 years after that. He had rasta dreads and was a tough cookie, but he wasn't invincible or anything, but he was fun to watch. Emanuel Augustus is the best guy rite now for the criteria you're talking about, he gets robbed alot, and always gives a good fight, don't let his resume deceive you fellas.

AztecWanker
12-05-2008, 11:27 PM
last time ill say this.....omar sheika is the best ever!

sheika>johnson>jones>ruiz>holyfield>tyson>holmes>ali

KostyaTszyu44
12-06-2008, 05:34 AM
Earnie Shavers...If his chin was better he would be able to go with Foreman better IMO...

Archie Moore, I'm not gunna say he could beat any champion even if he put all his tools together but the guy was a hell of a fighter...

moore wasnt no journeyman you jackass ,isnt he ranked in the top 20-30 all time p4p?? :rofl:

EDIT: ring mag raked him #14 out of best 80 fighters of the last 80 years

1SILVA
12-06-2008, 09:42 AM
Here are some of the best journeymen I have seen:
Mickey Ward
Emanuel Augustus
Randy Cobb
Scott Ledoux
Ross Purrity
Willy Wise
Harold Brazier
Willie Rodriguez
James Tillis
Andrew Council
Freddie Roach
Caveman Lee

Terry A
12-06-2008, 05:28 PM
For me, journeymen FAVORITES, not in order of how good they were, just guys I really enjoyed following (in no particular order)....

Bernardo Mercado
Eddie "Animal" Lopez
Oscar Bonavena
Randy Cobb
Jerry Quarry
Earnie Shavers
Ron Lyle
Wilford Scypion
Murray Southerland
Curtis Parker

JulioCesaChavez
12-06-2008, 06:48 PM
Peter Buckley deserves a mention. He is atypical limey who had 300 fights and lost most of them! I don't like the idea of a jounryeman losing on purpose to make more money though. Boxing would be better with guys that have W's, D's and L's because they might go out and try something! Buckley could have probably beat alot of them bums but decided to get his mortgage sorted instead.