View Full Version : Once and for all.....Did Sonny Liston take a dive or not?


La_Vibora
07-20-2006, 10:43 PM
For years it has been argued that for whatever reason, whether it being that Liston knew he couldn't beat Ali, or he was influenced by the mob, etc that he had taken a dive in their rematch against one another. Others argue that Ali just hit him with a well timed shot. You guys be the judge:

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What do you guys think?

!! AI-Holmes!!
07-20-2006, 10:52 PM
The invisible punch, I see Ali land a right after that lazy jab by Liston. I don't see a devastating punch but..who knows.

deliveryman
07-20-2006, 10:56 PM
Well-timed right hand that looks like it landed right on the chin.

If they had alternate camera angles then like we do now, it'd show that it was a much harder / cleaner / accurate punch than what we see from that clip.

For example: The right hand that Klitchko landed on Byrd that KO'd him in their rematch, from one angle it looked like it was nothing but a tap, but another it showed how devastating that right hand actually was.

LOLORSKATES
07-20-2006, 10:57 PM
He did. He had an interview a few years after it and when the person interviewing asked him, if he took a dive against Ali it took him a while to get it out and he said he was paid to take the dive..

LOLORSKATES
07-20-2006, 10:58 PM
Also, Ali was even telling him to get up and the punch didn't hurt him..

deliveryman
07-20-2006, 11:00 PM
He did. He had an interview a few years after it and when the person interviewing asked him, if he took a dive against Ali it took him a while to get it out and he said he was paid to take the dive..

If that's the case, Liston should be banished from the Hall of Fame and is an absolute disgrace to the sport.

LOLORSKATES
07-20-2006, 11:01 PM
If that's the case, Liston should be banished from the Hall of Fame and is an absolute disgrace to the sport.
Yeah it is a shame about that happening to him, but it was his choice and I guess he had no regards for himself and the sport..

Dempsey 1919
07-20-2006, 11:34 PM
Yes, he did.

jack_the_rippuh
07-20-2006, 11:36 PM
My grandmother could've took that shot.
Liston took a dive.

RastaSmoker
07-20-2006, 11:37 PM
if he was going to take a one dont you think he would do it on a more convincing punch. If he was trying to take a dive he would know that no one would buy the way that one looked. So if you asked me it just happened to be a wild perfectly lucky timed shot

TexDeuce
07-20-2006, 11:48 PM
He took a dive imo. **** him.

Verstyle
07-20-2006, 11:54 PM
no, he didnt he is thee greatest of all time.


damn butterfly get off the damn nuts :mad:

LOLORSKATES
07-20-2006, 11:58 PM
damn butterfly get off the damn nuts :mad:
Thee is put in the sentence wrong anyway..:thinking:

Verstyle
07-21-2006, 12:04 AM
Thee is put in the sentence wrong anyway..:thinking:

its a over used word. get to the dictionaires kid :cool: :bottle:

Dempsey 1919
07-21-2006, 12:47 AM
Mike Tyson is god!

Damn, versatile get off his damn nuts. :mad:

Verstyle
07-21-2006, 01:09 AM
if ali asked me to suck on his baby toe i would :?!:


hey hey hey. that aint needed in bs if u going to be like that take your act somewhere else :cool:

Rudyo
07-21-2006, 01:13 AM
HAHAHA good one.

Evil_Meat
07-21-2006, 01:38 AM
Well-timed right hand that looks like it landed right on the chin.

If they had alternate camera angles then like we do now, it'd show that it was a much harder / cleaner / accurate punch than what we see from that clip.

For example: The right hand that Klitchko landed on Byrd that KO'd him in their rematch, from one angle it looked like it was nothing but a tap, but another it showed how devastating that right hand actually was.
Byrd got up quickly as it was a flash knockdown but the punch opened up a big cut which was the reason for the stoppage. Had it not been stopped it would not have surprised me if Byrd went to decision like he did the first time.

Dempsey 1919
07-21-2006, 01:48 AM
if tyson asked me to suck on his baby toe i would

hey hey hey. that aint needed in bs if u going to be like that take your act somewhere else :cool:

Dempsey 1919
07-21-2006, 02:04 AM
HAHAHA good one.

No, it wasn't.

Easy-E
07-21-2006, 02:12 AM
I think the shot landed clean and dropped Liston.
However, he made no effort to get up.
Yes and no.

AREALFIGHTER
07-21-2006, 02:16 AM
This is funny nothing we do on this website is going to change what happened in that fight. My opinion if he took a dive it had nothing to do with ali.

Bozo_no no
07-21-2006, 02:21 AM
For years it has been argued that for whatever reason, whether it being that Liston knew he couldn't beat Ali, or he was influenced by the mob, etc that he had taken a dive in their rematch against one another. Others argue that Ali just hit him with a well timed shot. You guys be the judge:

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What do you guys think?


I've always thought that shot legitmatly dropped and stunned him because he didn't see it coming and it was sharp.

But,

he could have got up. I think that with all the racial tension and death threats around the event, or maybe for some reason we don't know about, he decided to stay down.

Either way, Ali legitmatly dropped him and did all that could be asked of him in that fight. Not his fault Liston (for whatever reason) didn't want to fight.

It's always bugged me that the contraversy around this fight casted a suspicious light on Ali. He didn't do anything suspect or wrong.

Easy-E
07-21-2006, 02:26 AM
This is funny nothing we do on this website is going to change what happened in that fight. My opinion if he took a dive it had nothing to do with ali.

I think it had everything to do with Ali.
He knew he couldnt beat him, and didnt want to get beat up.

Dirt E Gomez
07-21-2006, 02:27 AM
I believe the shot landed, and miiiiight've been a flash knockdown, but there was no way Liston was actually hurt bad. He could've easily gotten up and continued fighting on. So whether or not the punch landed cleanly to me is irrelivent, since the result was Liston quit.

AREALFIGHTER
07-21-2006, 02:32 AM
I think it had everything to do with Ali.
He knew he couldnt beat him, and didnt want to get beat up.Liston was able to bear down and fight why ali got under his skin to act stupid is beyond me. If he did take a dive it was for betting reasons. Ali just got him totaly frazeled when I think liston could have broght it. That was a weakness in listons game he I guess could not think through adversity. That punch did not look right as ali had to change the angle halfway through the punch. I just guess liston turned out to be a fairly easy nut to crack which I cannot understand with his street tough guy ways.

AREALFIGHTER
07-21-2006, 02:34 AM
I guess what I was saying is that liston may have been told to stay down.

Bozo_no no
07-21-2006, 02:35 AM
There's way too many reasons to even begin to guess why he stayed down.

The story of the death threats of Ali being shot in the ring is a valid point, but Liston was also involved with the mob.

So you have that, the theory of taking a dive to throw a fix, and reasons like screwing over his handlers.

Liston was a thug, and there's no telling why he stayed down. He took the reason to the grave.

AREALFIGHTER
07-21-2006, 02:43 AM
There's way too many reasons to even begin to guess why he stayed down.

The story of the death threats of Ali being shot in the ring is a valid point, but Liston was also involved with the mob.

So you have that, the theory of taking a dive to throw a fix, and reasons like screwing over his handlers.

Liston was a thug, and there's no telling why he stayed down. He took the reason to the grave.I'll buy that

pjpj
07-21-2006, 03:26 AM
I think he took a dive. Ali himself didn't seem convinced that shot legitimately hurt Liston.

La_Vibora
07-21-2006, 07:14 PM
If that's the case, Liston should be banished from the Hall of Fame and is an absolute disgrace to the sport.


If that's the case, Liston should be banished from the Hall of Fame and is an absolute disgrace to the sport.


Well we don't know why he took the dive(if he did indeed take one as I believe), there was always that speculation that he was a mob controlled fighter, and he was forced to do it. There is also the speculation that he threw the fight so that he could pay off some outstanding gambling debts. There is also the theory about the racial tensions and the Nation of Islam forcing him to take a dive.
If his life was indeed threatened by the mob to take a dive(like many fighters at the time were forced to), then could you really blame the man for doing it? In any case, that punch was certainly not strong enough to KO someone with a chin of the caliber of Sonny Liston's, hell against Marty Marshall he had got hit with a much harder shot he didn't see coming, while his mouth was open casing his jaw to become broken, but yet he still kept coming. So I have a hard time believing that shot had him out for good.

La_Vibora
07-21-2006, 07:19 PM
Liston was able to bear down and fight why ali got under his skin to act stupid is beyond me. If he did take a dive it was for betting reasons. Ali just got him totaly frazeled when I think liston could have broght it. That was a weakness in listons game he I guess could not think through adversity. That punch did not look right as ali had to change the angle halfway through the punch. I just guess liston turned out to be a fairly easy nut to crack which I cannot understand with his street tough guy ways.

Thats why it doesn't make sense. I mean if Liston had done this in say the 9th round, then maybe it would have had some mert, but to just go out there, and not only give up, but also humiliate himself by being knocked out in the 1st round? That just doesn't make sense and doesn't coincide with Liston's character.

I will say this though, that Sonny Liston was certainly an intruiging character. Imean almost everthing about the man is a mystery, from his birth(it is believed that he was born earlier than 1932) to his death(there was some very shady evidence to suggest that he didn't really die from a drug overdose). Hell, it is even said that his real name wasn't even Sonny Liston. The guy is a complete mystery.

Kball15
07-21-2006, 08:00 PM
Legitimate knockdown, but a frustrated liston stayed down because he was an EXTREMELY discouraged fighter. its as simple as that.

BUT, he should have gotten a long count, which was in effect. As the stupid young ALI danced around liston, the count should have STOPPED! But because the KD came so sudden, both the ringside manager AND jersey joe himself didnt start a count. It didnt matter anyway, as jersey joe never even gave liston a full count.

When Liston finally got to his feet, Walcott ACTUALLY LEFT the fighters alone with ZERO instuctions. He went ringside and took the advice of an AUDIENCE MEMBER (ring magazine editor) who told walcott that liston had been on the ground for 17 seconds!! BUt before walcott could get back and stop the fight, ALI and landed some powershots to an already knocked out liston.

thats the story with some of the controversy. He did take a dive, but it was definetly a legitamate KD. The wierd thing is, walcott got the job because he was a former world champion, but he had ZERO formal referee training! idk how he got work refereeing after that botch job!!!

Crazy Dude
07-21-2006, 08:04 PM
Liston didn't get up because Ali didn't go to a neutral corner and the referee didn't start a count.

Kball15
07-21-2006, 08:18 PM
yea thats what i just said. that has to ranked up there among the worst referee performances ever!!! why they would pick walcott, a VERY inexperienced ref, to ref a big fight like that is pretty mind boggeling!

Mishra100
07-21-2006, 09:49 PM
He went down really slow catching himself with every movement... That shows he wasn't really stunned... He just carefully layed on the ground... It was a good punch but if it was a flash knockdown he would have went to the canvas more drastically in my opinion..

charlie31
07-21-2006, 09:55 PM
He took a dive its so obvious..not to say he wouldnt have takin a beating..cuz he wouldve taken another beating. maybe he just didnt want to take that beating...what do you guys think??

RAESAAD
07-21-2006, 09:57 PM
I believe he did......