View Full Version : what if


king4fore
07-15-2006, 08:58 PM
what if max baer 6'3 220 the guy that put itailan strongman primo carnera down 12 times took on george foreman 6'3 200 the guy that knocked joe frazier down 6 times fought. i never saw this thread before. i thing it would be very interesting. id pick baer by 8th round knockout what do you guys think

Southpaw Stinger
07-15-2006, 10:07 PM
what if max baer 6'3 220 the guy that put itailan strongman primo carnera down 12 times took on george foreman 6'3 200

What do you mean by that? Foreman was 6'4 and around 225 and Baer was 6'2 and 220. Frazier was way better than Carnera and Foreman was way better than Baer so I don't know what your getting at.

Heckler
07-16-2006, 06:58 AM
Baer always has a chance with that right hand, but you just have to favour foreman. He's bigger, stronger, and hits harder.. both are lacking in the skill dept thus it would be a brawl, Foreman with his greater physical attributes knocks Baer out.

king4fore
07-18-2006, 08:54 PM
Baer always has a chance with that right hand, but you just have to favour foreman. He's bigger, stronger, and hits harder.. both are lacking in the skill dept thus it would be a brawl, Foreman with his greater physical attributes knocks Baer out.
i dont know if foreman had greater physical attributes. baer was a undefeated fighter before he killed that guy in the ring

sleazyfellow
07-18-2006, 08:58 PM
What do you mean by that? Foreman was 6'4 and around 225 and Baer was 6'2 and 220. Frazier was way better than Carnera and Foreman was way better than Baer so I don't know what your getting at.

exactly how i feel...foreman knocking down frazier all those times is a better accomplishment than knocking down crappy carnera...and the above poster? u dont know if foreman has better physical attributes then baer? what r u on... :confused:

king4fore
07-19-2006, 02:25 AM
exactly how i feel...foreman knocking down frazier all those times is a better accomplishment than knocking down crappy carnera...and the above poster? u dont know if foreman has better physical attributes then baer? what r u on... :confused:
what are you on. baer was just as big and as strong as foreman. hell not only did he bust carnera up, but he beat a prime max schemling and jack sharkey. his right hand is probably the best in the history of boxing, and he was a better boxer than a young george foreman

sleazyfellow
07-19-2006, 10:43 AM
what are you on. baer was just as big and as strong as foreman. hell not only did he bust carnera up, but he beat a prime max schemling and jack sharkey. his right hand is probably the best in the history of boxing, and he was a better boxer than a young george foreman

best right hand? how about earnie shavers or foreman..baer is overrated to hell, hes a freaking clown in the ring if u saw him fight braddock..

Kid Achilles
07-19-2006, 12:26 PM
Anyone who says they know for a fact that Foreman hit harder than Baer is a fool. Both guys were tops in the punching power department. Taking a punch from either was like getting hit by a mack truck. Both were very similar in size and frame (Baer was about 6' 2 1/2" and Foreman a little over 6'3", Foreman heavier but IMO slightly softer than the chiseled Baer), so to give Foreman any kind of edge is just bias.

I'm not saying that I know if one guy hit harder than the other but anyone who says that he knows without a shred of a doubt that Foreman hit harder than Baer is just talking out of his ass.

A fight between the two would be an exciting slugfest, with Baer's superior stamina and IMO edge in the chin department would be significant factors as well as Foreman's power in both hands and his jab.

I think it's a pick 'em fight. Could go either way.

K-DOGG
07-19-2006, 12:36 PM
Anyone who says they know for a fact that Foreman hit harder than Baer is a fool. Both guys were tops in the punching power department. Taking a punch from either was like getting hit by a mack truck. Both were very similar in size and frame (Baer was about 6' 2 1/2" and Foreman a little over 6'3", Foreman heavier but IMO slightly softer than the chiseled Baer), so to give Foreman any kind of edge is just bias.

I'm not saying that I know if one guy hit harder than the other but anyone who says that he knows without a shred of a doubt that Foreman hit harder than Baer is just talking out of his ass.

A fight between the two would be an exciting slugfest, with Baer's superior stamina and IMO edge in the chin department would be significant factors as well as Foreman's power in both hands and his jab.

I think it's a pick 'em fight. Could go either way.

Completely agree. Think Foreman-Lyle....but wilder. I do believe the first round, or most of the first round would be a feeling out process with both men respecting the other's punching power. But, as soon as somebody get's hit...it's on...and up for grabs. I would give a slight edge to Foreman based on attitude. Baer never took training seriously enough and would regularly play around in the ring....like he did in the Carnera fight where he walked over between rounds and steped in Primo's rosin pan. George was all business; and I think, eventually, that would be the difference, though Maxie would get serious as soon as he got hit. It is a pick 'em fight; but I'd give the edge, the slightest of edges, to George for his pure, unadulterated meanness.

king4fore
07-20-2006, 02:09 AM
Completely agree. Think Foreman-Lyle....but wilder. I do believe the first round, or most of the first round would be a feeling out process with both men respecting the other's punching power. But, as soon as somebody get's hit...it's on...and up for grabs. I would give a slight edge to Foreman based on attitude. Baer never took training seriously enough and would regularly play around in the ring....like he did in the Carnera fight where he walked over between rounds and steped in Primo's rosin pan. George was all business; and I think, eventually, that would be the difference, though Maxie would get serious as soon as he got hit. It is a pick 'em fight; but I'd give the edge, the slightest of edges, to George for his pure, unadulterated meanness.
id pick baer by 10th rd tko. baer had his power for 15 rounds were as foreman got weaker each round,baer was a very underrated fighter

Southpaw Stinger
07-20-2006, 02:17 AM
baer was a very underrated fighter

He's very overated. Foreman in 4.

Baer had 13 losses, only the KO loss against Louis is understandable. Losing to a guy like Braddock and other less the par fighters dissmisses him as an all time great.
Very overated IMO and wouldn't stand a chance against Foreman. Georges chin is too good and a toe to toe brawl would always favour the stronger more focussed Foreman.

Dye
07-20-2006, 04:31 AM
George Foreman, but i have not seen Bear fight

Southpaw Stinger
07-20-2006, 10:27 AM
George Foreman, but i have not seen Bear fight

I've seen 2 of his fights and there really isn't anything overly special about him.

People have only recently took notice of him since Bert Sugar licked his balls for a short moment.

Toddy
07-20-2006, 10:42 AM
I've seen 2 of his fights and there really isn't anything overly special about him.

People have only recently took notice of him since Bert Sugar licked his balls for a short moment.

what about "rumble in the jungle"? Big George punched himself out within a few rounds and if foreman did that would Bear punch himself out in less rounds? im just trying 2 c hu would have the better stamina based on this

Southpaw Stinger
07-20-2006, 10:46 AM
what about "rumble in the jungle"? Big George punched himself out within a few rounds and if foreman did that would Bear punch himself out in less rounds? im just trying 2 c hu would have the better stamina based on this

I'd favour Ali's ability to take punishment over Baers. Anyone else laying on the ropes in Zaire would be KTFO.
Foreman only punched himself out once in 81 fights and was only stopped once inside the distance through exhaustion.

If Baer was fighting in hot Africa and was swinging arm punchers non stop for 8 rounds you can bet him or almost anyone else would be tired as well.

Toddy
07-20-2006, 10:52 AM
I'd favour Ali's ability to take punishment over Baers. Anyone else laying on the ropes in Zaire would be KTFO.
Foreman only punched himself out once in 81 fights and was only stopped once inside the distance through exhaustion.

If Baer was fighting in hot Africa and was swinging arm punchers non stop for 8 rounds you can bet him or almost anyone else would be tired as well.

ok so what are you sayin? baer has less stamina than big george or beter stamina?

Southpaw Stinger
07-20-2006, 10:56 AM
ok so what are you sayin? baer has less stamina than big george or beter stamina?

I'm saying it's hard to judge over 1 particular fight. George showed pretty good stamina in the rest of his fights.

All I know for sure is, George trained a lot harder than Baer and he took boxing much more seriously.
So I say George will be the guy in better shape and probably has better stamina.

Toddy
07-20-2006, 10:59 AM
ok thanks then id have to say big george would win due to his higher level of concentration when trainin

Southpaw Stinger
07-20-2006, 11:02 AM
ok thanks then id have to say big george would win due to his higher level of concentration when trainin

Thats how I reached my conclusion after looking at both fighters.

Foreman also came out on top agianst bigger guys than Baer with just as much punching power. Ron Lyle and Gerry Cooney were big men with huge punchers.

So Foreman wins because he trains harder and he beat the better opposition.

Toddy
07-20-2006, 11:07 AM
i see cheers m8 for the info

Big G Foreman
07-23-2006, 02:54 AM
Here would be a better post topic.Could just one time somebody makes a post and have a clue to what they are talking about?Baer isn't any where near as skilled as Foreman.Look at the 2 fighters too beat a prime Foreman and then look at the first 2 guys to beat Baer.Over 20 men went the distance with Baer while only 8 of Foremans wins wern't by knockout which ment Foreman was alot harder puncher not to mention fighters in Baer's time wore smaller gloves and Foreman fought tougher opponents.
The fight would be similar too Foreman Lyle?Really why would you even think this?Baer was knocked out many times in his career punchers who had less pop than Foreman.Joe Louis who was probably the best fighter Baer fought beat him with ease.Louis himself is overrated fighting bum after bum after bum only fighter 2 black men in his whole career and neither of them would be considered heavweights today.
Foreman also had one of the best chins in boxing history.Don't use the Lyle fight to show he could be down.Lyle could bang no doubt about it but do you really think Lyle punched harder than lets say Shannon Briggs who Foreman fought 20 years later?Briggs landed some bombs but they had no effect so he ran.Foreman was knocked down by Lyle probably because he was rusty and his ego had been destroyed by losing to Ali.
The myth about Foreman being a poor boxer always cracks me up.Nobody in Foreman's prime out boxed him.If Foreman was really that bad of a boxer with horrible stamina wouldn't he of had more than 2 loses in his prime?Wouldn't it have been easy for just anybody to stick and move and tire him out?The only punch Foreman threw wild was the hook but most 6'4 or taller heavyweights throw wild or slow hooks.Lewis,Ali and Holmes didn't really have good hooks either.Infact all of their best punches were the right hand or uppercut just like Foreman.
I can't picture any way Baer could even go 2 rounds would Foreman never mind winning.

king4fore
07-25-2006, 09:12 PM
Here would be a better post topic.Could just one time somebody makes a post and have a clue to what they are talking about?Baer isn't any where near as skilled as Foreman.Look at the 2 fighters too beat a prime Foreman and then look at the first 2 guys to beat Baer.Over 20 men went the distance with Baer while only 8 of Foremans wins wern't by knockout which ment Foreman was alot harder puncher not to mention fighters in Baer's time wore smaller gloves and Foreman fought tougher opponents.
The fight would be similar too Foreman Lyle?Really why would you even think this?Baer was knocked out many times in his career punchers who had less pop than Foreman.Joe Louis who was probably the best fighter Baer fought beat him with ease.Louis himself is overrated fighting bum after bum after bum only fighter 2 black men in his whole career and neither of them would be considered heavweights today.
Foreman also had one of the best chins in boxing history.Don't use the Lyle fight to show he could be down.Lyle could bang no doubt about it but do you really think Lyle punched harder than lets say Shannon Briggs who Foreman fought 20 years later?Briggs landed some bombs but they had no effect so he ran.Foreman was knocked down by Lyle probably because he was rusty and his ego had been destroyed by losing to Ali.
The myth about Foreman being a poor boxer always cracks me up.Nobody in Foreman's prime out boxed him.If Foreman was really that bad of a boxer with horrible stamina wouldn't he of had more than 2 loses in his prime?Wouldn't it have been easy for just anybody to stick and move and tire him out?The only punch Foreman threw wild was the hook but most 6'4 or taller heavyweights throw wild or slow hooks.Lewis,Ali and Holmes didn't really have good hooks either.Infact all of their best punches were the right hand or uppercut just like Foreman.
I can't picture any way Baer could even go 2 rounds would Foreman never mind winning.first let me correct you. joe louis fought three black men. and you talk about baer's losses, i must point out all of his losses happened after he killed a guy in the ring. he holds wins over max schemling jack sharkey and primo carnera all world champions.

Kid Achilles
07-25-2006, 09:42 PM
Don't waste your time with this Foreman clown. He is Tommhearns804 back for more abuse. One of the least knowledgeable posters on this forum.

sleazyfellow
07-26-2006, 01:17 AM
Joe Louis who was probably the best fighter Baer fought beat him with ease.Louis himself is overrated fighting bum after bum after bum only fighter 2 black men in his whole career and neither of them would be considered heavweights today.

you=retard :bryce:

MickyHatton
07-26-2006, 04:52 AM
Anyone who says they know for a fact that Foreman hit harder than Baer is a fool. Both guys were tops in the punching power department. Taking a punch from either was like getting hit by a mack truck. Both were very similar in size and frame (Baer was about 6' 2 1/2" and Foreman a little over 6'3", Foreman heavier but IMO slightly softer than the chiseled Baer), so to give Foreman any kind of edge is just bias.

I'm not saying that I know if one guy hit harder than the other but anyone who says that he knows without a shred of a doubt that Foreman hit harder than Baer is just talking out of his ass.

A fight between the two would be an exciting slugfest, with Baer's superior stamina and IMO edge in the chin department would be significant factors as well as Foreman's power in both hands and his jab.

I think it's a pick 'em fight. Could go either way.

Spot on, both were not blessed with boxing skills but were ferocious punchers and fighters, toss of a coin IMO!

Southpaw Stinger
07-26-2006, 09:35 AM
He is Tommhearns804 back for more abuse. One of the least knowledgeable posters on this forum.

In a way I've missed the guy. I'm waiting for another hilarious Marciano post!

Heckler
07-27-2006, 01:04 AM
When you analyze the two you just have to give the edge to Foreman. From what ive seen i believe foreman was even more skilled, he had a sledge hammer jab he used to great effect, he was no Joe Frazier but he was definately a good body puncher and most importantly he had power in both hands. From what i've seen in film and from the general concensus among boxing historians ive concluded that George Foreman is physically stronger then Baer and thus would be more sucessful in manipulating Baer around the ring than Baer would Foreman. It's definately no blowout and im not CERTAIN Foreman would take out Baer... but it's likely IMO.

Dempsey 1919
07-27-2006, 05:45 PM
Number one Baer wasn't no 220. At the most he was 208-210. Foreman was a lot bigger, stronger, more skilled, a better two fisted puncher, and a better chin. Foreman in about one or two rounds, period.

Kid Achilles
07-27-2006, 08:40 PM
Number one Baer wasn't no 220. At the most he was 208-210. Foreman was a lot bigger, stronger, more skilled, a better two fisted puncher, and a better chin. Foreman in about one or two rounds, period.

No one is gonna knock Baer out in two rounds. If anyone is KO'ed within two rounds, it's Foreman who has the shakier chin. Louis was a much better puncher than Lyle and hit Baer with much more punishment than Foreman received at the hands of Lyle, yet Baer was never knocked out in that fight- he let himself get counted out.

Physically Baer is much bigger and more impressive than you are making him out to be. Baer had a huge head and some of the widest shoulders I've seen on a man 6'3" or under. He had a monstrous frame with a nearly 48" chest (Foreman's was 44 1/2" for comparison). Basically his body was as big or bigger than Foreman's, and his skull was significantly bigger than Big George's.

Baer at 220 was a lean as Foreman was at that weight. His upperbody was huge, with wider shoulders than Foreman, though his arms and legs were slimmer. Basically he was built for endurance and getting tremendous leverage into his shots a la Bob Fitzsimmons. His technique and body mechanics weren't great (though better than Foreman's I'd say) but he was a freak of nature when it came to punching power, just like Foreman. He was very, very strong and heavy handed.

Why does Baer look sort of skinny in those old pictures? Because his noggin was friggin' huge. Watch the fight with Joe Louis who was a large man with a big head and yet he is utterly dwarfed by Baer. When your head is that big, every other part of you seems smaller in comparison.

Baer was a physical marvel, a punching power prodigy, who IMO combined hitting power and durability (chin, stamina, and ability to take it to the body) better than any other fighter I've seen.

I wouldn't bet on Baer to beat anyone (he lost to Braddock after all, whom he held every conceivable advantage over) but I would never bet against Baer. He was that kind of fighter.

Southpaw Stinger
07-28-2006, 07:08 AM
No one is gonna knock Baer out in two rounds. If anyone is KO'ed within two rounds, it's Foreman who has the shakier chin.

How can you say Foreman has the Shakier chin when he was only stopped once in somthing like 81 fights - and that was by exhaustion. It was Baer who was stopped by smaller guys on more than one occasion. So it's not right saying Foreman has the weaker chin.
And back then they used very thin gloves so of course his rights gonna be hard. Put 8 or 10 oz gloves on him and see if he can go toe to toe with Foreman. Better yet put small gloves on Foreman and then we'll see someone get killed in the ring...

Kid Achilles
07-28-2006, 09:44 AM
Put smaller gloves on Ron Lyle's hands and let's see how Foreman surives. The arguement works both ways, and really only against Foreman by your logic since you seem to think the bigger gloves really prevent concussions (which they don't). By your logic Foreman, who was hurt and knocked out by opponents wearing larger gloves, would get slaughtered by a better puncher in Louis wearing the smaller 8z gloves of the time.

Foreman may have only been stopped once, but it was by Ali, a weaker puncher than Louis, the only man to stop a prime Baer (and even then he was a bit removed from his prime and had an injured right hand at the time of the fight). Baer was decisioned often in his youth but had never been floored until he met Louis, an all time great puncher, who hit him almost at will with flush punches. Max took an awful beating in that fight and though he continued to fight and have some success, he was not the same.

Criticising those stoppages to Nova (a damn good puncher in his own right, at least as hard hitting as Ali) late in Baer's career is like saying Tyson had a ****ty chin for getting stopped by McBride. Also one of the Nova stoppages was due to cuts on Baer's face and mouth, and not any fault of his chin.

At his best, Baer was nearly impervious to punishment whereas it was always possible to hurt Foreman if you stood up to him and hit him flush (which few people did).

Southpaw Stinger
07-28-2006, 11:04 AM
Foreman may have only been stopped once, but it was by Ali, a weaker puncher

Foreman was beat by exhaustion not hard punching.

Put smaller gloves on Ron Lyle's hands and let's see how Foreman surives

that also works both ways so again I see Lyle getting KO'd.

it was always possible to hurt Foreman if you stood up to him and hit him flush

Wasn't even once knocked down in his come in his 40's I don't think. And he took a lot of flush shots in the time.

And for the record I never questioned Baers chin, I just think it's wrong for you to downgrade Foremans chin when he clearly fought bigger guys than Baer fought and he went toe to toe with harder punchers.

Yaman
07-28-2006, 11:43 AM
Put smaller gloves on Ron Lyle's hands and let's see how Foreman surives. The arguement works both ways, and really only against Foreman by your logic since you seem to think the bigger gloves really prevent concussions (which they don't). By your logic Foreman, who was hurt and knocked out by opponents wearing larger gloves, would get slaughtered by a better puncher in Louis wearing the smaller 8z gloves of the time.

Foreman may have only been stopped once, but it was by Ali, a weaker puncher than Louis, the only man to stop a prime Baer (and even then he was a bit removed from his prime and had an injured right hand at the time of the fight). Baer was decisioned often in his youth but had never been floored until he met Louis, an all time great puncher, who hit him almost at will with flush punches. Max took an awful beating in that fight and though he continued to fight and have some success, he was not the same.

Criticising those stoppages to Nova (a damn good puncher in his own right, at least as hard hitting as Ali) late in Baer's career is like saying Tyson had a ****ty chin for getting stopped by McBride. Also one of the Nova stoppages was due to cuts on Baer's face and mouth, and not any fault of his chin.

At his best, Baer was nearly impervious to punishment whereas it was always possible to hurt Foreman if you stood up to him and hit him flush (which few people did).

You must be joking..i mean you are comparing Max Baer, a ****ing clown of a heavyweight, to one of the best Hws ever. I'll just wait untill you admit you were joking, untill then i'll play along.

Smaller gloves cause a lot more damage, everyone knows that. As far as the Ron Lyle comment, that may be right, but Max is no Lyle. He's ****. He was ko'd by a 200 pound nobody. A nobody compared to Morrison, Holyfield, Lyle etc who were bigger and hit harder. You can't compare his chin to Foreman. Ali ko'd Foreman because he was tired and had nothing left. I think you even said that in a thread once.

Max Baer was never floored before louis because that was the first good fighter he fought. He fought nobody's compared to Foreman. And the first time someone fights back, he's ko'd in 1. When someone fough Foreman back, Foreman was down and came back to win.

Tyson had a ****ty chin because of Mcbride? he quit because Mcbride was a smelly **** who was leaning with 270 pounds on him. Not because he hit Tyson hard. Like Mike said ''He didn't hit me hard, he hit me like he's French''. You cant compare this.
Foreman ko's Baer in 1.

Southpaw Stinger
07-28-2006, 11:50 AM
Fighters from Baers period are usually overated. I think Louis is one of the only guys from that time who can be considered great.

Kid Achilles
07-28-2006, 12:13 PM
You can go on believing what you want, but the truth is Baer would have a great chance against Foreman and was the more durable (taking into consideration chin AND stamina) of the two.

SABBATH
07-28-2006, 12:30 PM
Baer tends to be overrated as a fighter and a puncher. His three best names on his KO resume are Max Schmeling, Primo Carnera and Tony Galento (a truly awful fighter). Schmeling was worn down late in the fight and took a successive of right hand swipes (including back-handers) to finally bring Max down. Carnera was floored alot and in the absence of a mandatory 8 count kept getting back up and lasted into the 11th and Galento quit in his corner claiming a broken hand.

The rest of Baer's bigger name opponents Ernie Schaff, Tommy Loughran, Johnny Risko, Paolino Uzcudun, King Levinsky, Jim Braddock all went the distance with Baer and with the exception of Levinsky all of them defeated "The Clown Prince". Only Schaff weighed over 200 lbs.

Baer's fighting style was also primitive. He was a wild right hand obsessed puncher with little hand speed, technique, defence or mobility.

Here's a few samples of his most famous fights.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=kKoarFEmRCU&search=max%20baer

For a fighter to qualify as a "Hardest Hitter" he need KO's over proven chins. Foreman had Chuvalo, Frazier, and Lyle. Baer's win or KO resume isn't comparable.

Southpaw Stinger
07-28-2006, 01:07 PM
For a fighter to qualify as a "Hardest Hitter" he need KO's over proven chins. Foreman had Chuvalo, Frazier, and Lyle. Baer's win or KO resume isn't comparable.

very true man.

Kid Achilles
07-28-2006, 03:01 PM
I go by what my eyes see and what opponents of these fighters say about their power, as well as experts and men in boxing who actually watched these guys spar and hit the bags. Foreman beat Chuvalo, Frazier, and Wepner as far as fighters with outstanding chins goes and I'd consider only Chuvalo above Galento in terms of durability.

Galento looked a fat slob but he could really take a punch and give one. I'd rate his chin over Lyle and Frazier (but of course as a complete package he was nowhere near Joe's level) and Baer had him pissing his ****ing trunks with his power.

Sure objectively you could rate Foreman's power higher just by looking at the numbers, but they don't tell the whole story. We'd have to put Baer in with Foreman's opposition, or Foreman in with Baer's opponents, to get an accurate comparison of KO% and quality chins dusted.

I am of the opinion that Baer and Foreman were on the same level as punchers. I'm sure one hit harder than the other, but not significantly so.

SABBATH
07-28-2006, 04:51 PM
Galento looked a fat slob but he could really take a punch and give one. I'd rate his chin over Lyle and Frazier (but of course as a complete package he was nowhere near Joe's level) and Baer had him pissing his ****ing trunks with his power. I suggest you watch my link which includes Baer-Galento and Galento sure as hell wasn't "pissing his ****ing trunks". He took everything Baer hit him with and still kept coming despite a wide open face first style. This is pure unsubstantiated exaggeration on your part.

I also suggest you watch the Lou Nova clip and count how many clean solid right hands Baer hits Nova with who walks right through them.

Kid Achilles
07-29-2006, 11:55 AM
That clip leaves out the fact that Galento quit before the 8th round of the fight claiming that he couldn't breath. There was never a hand injury, as the video claims, Galento was simply unwilling to endure any more of Max's punches.

As for the Nova fight, where a shopworn Baer has trouble taking him out, how about a young Foreman going a total of twenty rounds with light-heavyweight Gregoria Peralta and landing his share of hard blows without producing as much as a knockdown.

Are you going to tell me Foreman wasn't an all time great puncher because of that?

king4fore
07-29-2006, 06:57 PM
Fighters from Baers period are usually overated. I think Louis is one of the only guys from that time who can be considered great.
what about schemling,and jack sharkey

SABBATH
07-29-2006, 07:10 PM
That clip leaves out the fact that Galento quit before the 8th round of the fight claiming that he couldn't breath. There was never a hand injury, as the video claims, Galento was simply unwilling to endure any more of Max's punches.

As for the Nova fight, where a shopworn Baer has trouble taking him out, how about a young Foreman going a total of twenty rounds with light-heavyweight Gregoria Peralta and landing his share of hard blows without producing as much as a knockdown.

Are you going to tell me Foreman wasn't an all time great puncher because of that?
I'm sure Galento couldn't breath with the 244 lbs of sludge he was carrying on his 5'9 frame. What a poor excuse for a proffessional athlete.

If you're going to classify the 197 lb 91 fight veteran Peralta as a light-heavyweight then I suggest you re-evaluate Baer's opposition many who weighed less than Peralta and had lengthy careers at light-heavyweight such as Jim Braddock who spent the majority of his career as a journeyman light-heavyweight who a prime Baer couldn't even dent over 15 rounds. I've already listed more than a few small heavyweights who not only went the distance with Baer but in fact defeated him.

I don't seem to recall Foreman losing to smaller men when he was 40-0 with 37 KO's going into the Ali fight.

Stiv Rex
07-30-2006, 02:55 AM
man, achilles is always on the ball, he really knows his ****. i couldnt agree with him more when it comes to foreman. he was and is still WAY overrated when it comes to boxing ability and punching power. however, he did have a hell of a chin.
seems like foreman fans are almost as deluded as ali fans, you regularly hear **** like "freakish strength" when they talk about him. foreman was no superman, he wasnt even the strongest or hardest hitting heavyweight of his era. plus he knew only one way to fight, straight-forward-clubbing-like-a-caveman. he knew how to use his size very well and not much else.
as for baer, what the **** do i know? havent seen any of his fights. there are plenty of dumb****s who want to say that the old guys would get the **** kicked out of them by the new guys. bull****. tough is tough. and i cant remember who said that thinner gloves make it so you can hit harder but thats bull**** too. you can only hit as hard as you can without breaking a meta/carpal or a knuckle. those thinner gloves they used meant that a strong guy (as baer obviously was) COULDNT ALWAYS HIT AS HARD AS THEY WANTED TO! they would break their ****ing hands! then they are up **** creek because medical science wasnt as good then.
boxing back then wasnt as refined, maybe not as quick at the heavyweight level. like i said, i dont really know about back then. as strange as it seems, i would give foreman the edge in boxing ability (he did win a gold medal, after all). but an overrated boxer like foreman against a big puncher like baer who was tougher than most in his time? no way its a blowout.

Kid Achilles
07-30-2006, 12:16 PM
Spot on Stiv. Foreman has the better skills and sure he has the overall edge in this fight but the clowns who say he blows the durable Baer out in one round need to put down the crack pipe.

Max Baer > Ron Lyle

If Baer is motivated and comes in at a lean 205-210 pounds it would mean a long night for Foreman. The guy, as I keep saying, was huge, a natural 230 lber who worked all the fat off of his torso, arms, and legs until what was left was 200-220 lbs of dense muscle. Foreman was soft at 215-220 in comparison. Foreman had pacing problems and stamina problems. He openly admitted in his book that he never ran more than 2 miles or so a day when he was younger. Baer on the other hand was extremely fit in his prime and had phenomenal stamina for such a large framed guy.

This will be my last post on this thread. I'm sick of arguing with people who don't know anything about boxing pre 1960 and who are extremely biased against the fighters of the time. What's the point, when people are so ignorant and unwilling to change their viewpoint. Stylistic Baer is a formidable challenge for Foreman because he has an awesome right hand (the punch that gave Foreman so much trouble against Lyle), much better stamina than Foreman, and a chin that was at least as good as Big George's. Basically Foreman is fighting a cruder version of himself (their styles do look a little different but the same kind of punching power, punch resistance, attitude etc) with better stamina. It'd be a tough fight, and I don't care what anyone says.

As for the glove matter, Stiv is correct again and Baer routinely had problems with his right hand. He hit so hard that he was plagued with hand injuries, specifically leading up to his fight with Louis, the biggest of his career. What would have happened to Frazier if he had an injured left hand against Ali? What kind of chance would you give him?

Put the bigger gloves that Foreman wore on Baer and he will have a field day, throwing huge punches with less fear of injuring himself.

Anyway I look at this, it's a tough fight to call because of the raw power of both men, and the superior conditioning of Baer. If Baer can give as good as he takes and get Foreman's respect like Lyle did, he will be in much better shape with each passing round. If the fight goes late, I think Baer takes it. Foreman's best hope is an early blitz but I think Baer is too durable so the likely scenario for me has the fight ending in the no man's land of the middle rounds, by brutal stoppage, and by either man.

Yaman
07-30-2006, 04:52 PM
[QUOTE=Kid Achilles]
As for the Nova fight, where a shopworn Baer has trouble taking him out, how about a young Foreman going a total of twenty rounds with light-heavyweight Gregoria Peralta and landing his share of hard blows without producing as much as a knockdown.[QUOTE]

I gotta say though, even though i dont agree with everything you said, very good point about Foreman.

SABBATH
08-02-2006, 05:09 PM
Anyway I look at this, it's a tough fight to call because of the raw power of both men, and the superior conditioning of Baer. If Baer can give as good as he takes and get Foreman's respect like Lyle did, he will be in much better shape with each passing round. If the fight goes late, I think Baer takes it. Foreman's best hope is an early blitz but I think Baer is too durable so the likely scenario for me has the fight ending in the no man's land of the middle rounds, by brutal stoppage, and by either man. The problem with your analogy is your constant reference to the Lyle fight.

Ron Lyle was a prison hardened tough man. Baer in comparison was a womanizing playboy who by his own admission didn't like fighting, was a slacker in training, a clown in and out of the ring and admittedly quit and took the count in his fight against Joe Louis to avoid punishment. This is the guy that was having sex in his dressing room before defending his title against Braddock. What kind of mindset is this to carry into a slugfest with George Foreman?

Baer NEVER displayed the type of resolve to dig deep and come back from a tough drag-em-out get off the deck fight. Foreman could only hope Baer fought him like Lyle did.

Kid Achilles
08-02-2006, 08:18 PM
Lyle was a prison hardened tough man who was completely overwhelmed and intimidated in his biggest fight against Muhammad Ali. I think you are overrating Lyle's mentality and underrating Baer's. Yeah Lyle was tough but on his best night, against Schmeling, Baer walked through some really heavy punishment to land his own shots and did not shrink in the face of a tough counter puncher in Schmeling.

Against Louis, a masterful combination and counter puncher, Baer really had no hope and knew that by the second round or so, but Foreman did not have such skill and would not be connecting with the steady stream of punishment that Louis did.

As for him sleeping with women on the morning of the Braddock fight, he was overconfident and thought, no knew, he could put Jim away at any time. Do you really think he'd put forth such a pisspoor effort for a fighter and puncher of Foreman's caliber? Doubtful.

Again, I'm not saying Baer wins this but it's a close call. Foreman never faced a guy who was in his league in terms of punching power, chin, and tenacity. The closest he came was Lyle, who had none of Baer's chin or stamina, and he came within an inch of losing that one by KO. I'm not saying Baer is exactly Lyle with a better chin and stamina, but he would represent a unique challenge that Foreman had never dealt with.

The same goes for Baer: he never faced a guy with Foreman's characteristics and physical tools.

So again, it's impossible to say what would have happened, but I think it would be a heated brawl fought on even terms and the result would be a stoppage or a knockout.

SABBATH
08-03-2006, 11:40 AM
Lyle was a prison hardened tough man who was completely overwhelmed and intimidated in his biggest fight against Muhammad Ali. I think you are overrating Lyle's mentality and underrating Baer's. Yeah Lyle was tough but on his best night, against Schmeling, Baer walked through some really heavy punishment to land his own shots and did not shrink in the face of a tough counter puncher in Schmeling.

Against Louis, a masterful combination and counter puncher, Baer really had no hope and knew that by the second round or so, but Foreman did not have such skill and would not be connecting with the steady stream of punishment that Louis did.How was Lyle overwhelmed and intimidated in the Ali fight? He fought a very intelligent fight, conserving his energy by fighting in mid-ring and forcing Ali to fight as the aggressor. Lyle's game plan had him leading on the scorecards after ten rounds before a perfectly timed right hand by Ali badly hurt Lyle.

You should watch Lyle-Shavers where Lyle absorbed bombs from Shavers including a 2nd round knockdown that I still don't know how the hell he got up from....and rallied to win by KO all the while standing toe to toe with one of the hardest hitting heavyweights of all time. He also went toe to toe with Foreman absorbed some hellacious punches and got off the deck in that one too.

Believe me, I don't overrate Lyle's mentality. Baer's fight with Schmeling doesn't remotely compare. Schmeling was leading the fight and won his rounds in a measured methodical fashion while Baer according to the NY TIMES "petered out" after an opening round in which Baer "started out like a human tornado."

Baer had sore hands going into the Louis fight did not want to even enter the ring. Baer made a decision in his dressing room that Louis was going to slaughter him and he couldn't go through with the fight. Baer had to be persuaded by a disgusted Jack Dempsey to leave the dressing room and "get in the ring and fight like a champion."

"I could have got up, but it wouldn't have done me any good.....Quit? Sure I quit. But I was just being smart." - Max Baer after being KO'd by Joe Louis

Kid Achilles
08-03-2006, 01:41 PM
You are not telling me anything new in regards to Baer's condition and state of mind in his fight against Louis. The injured right hand was part of the reason he did not fight his best in that fight, took such a beating, and then quit. Why go on injured against such a great champion when you can live to fight another day?

For the purposes of this Foreman fight, Baer's hand is healthy.

My point is, Foreman never dealt with anyone like Baer, let alone beat such a fighter convincingly, so I don't know how people can go around saying he'd blast him out in a round or two.

Southpaw Stinger
08-03-2006, 03:07 PM
My point is, Foreman never dealt with anyone like Baer, let alone beat such a fighter convincingly, so I don't know how people can go around saying he'd blast him out in a round or two.

And did Baer ever fight someone like Foreman?

Kid Achilles
08-03-2006, 06:24 PM
No he didn't, which is why no one knows what the hell would happen and why anyone posting a one or two round knockout for either guy is a nut.