View Full Version : What IF...


K-DOGG
06-25-2006, 01:31 PM
One of more fun practices of studying boxing history, to me, are the scenarios that could have occured; but didn't. If there was a different universe created for every choice we make, there would be limitless possible futures and results stemming from one particular incident, had it gone a variety of different routes from the way it is recorded in the history books. So, I thought I would put one such scenario up a week and let the nimble minds and knowledgeable experts on these boards examine the "what if" factor, should you choose to do so.

This week's "what if":

What if.....Jack Johnson met James J. Jeffries in 1905?



Have fun. :D

K-DOGG
06-25-2006, 02:41 PM
What?! No takers? I'm the only one that finds this fun?


Nobody's ever thought about Jeffries in his prime at 29/30 taking on Johnson at age 26?!

Do y'all think the result would be exactly the same as a 30 year old Johnson over a 35 year old, been retired for 5 years, lost over 80 Lbs Jeffries??

K-DOGG
06-25-2006, 02:52 PM
My Top Ten of "What If's"

1.-What if Johnson met Jeffries in 1905..
2.-What if Schmeling won the second Louis match...
3.-What if Ali went to prison in 1971 after Ali-Frazier I...
4.-What if Tyson kept Rooney and ignored Don King..
5.-What if Leonard had met Pryor..
6.-What if Willie Pep was never in a plane crash..
7.-What if Bowe actually fought Lewis in 1993...
8.-What if Holmes had unified the title in the early 80's...
9.-What if if Johnson had defended againt the other big three...
10.-What if Salvador Sanchez hadn't had that wreck...

Southpaw Stinger
06-25-2006, 02:56 PM
Prime Jeffries would have beaten Johnson in my oppinion, and we would have to wait until Joe Louis for the first Black champion.

K-DOGG
06-25-2006, 02:59 PM
Prime Jeffries would have beaten Johnson in my oppinion, and we would have to wait until Joe Louis for the first Black champion.

I think he could have; but part of me wonders if Johnson's style would have beaten even a prime Jeff. I don't think Johnson would have stopped a prime Jeffries, though...which makes me wonder if Johnson could have gotten a decision over an American icon.

Southpaw Stinger
06-25-2006, 03:24 PM
which makes me wonder if Johnson could have gotten a decision over an American icon.

Thats true. Jeffries could take a lot of punishment so the fight would likely go the distance - and I don't think the judges would give Johnson the nod for some reason....

j
06-26-2006, 06:06 AM
jack would beat him. it's not like jeffries had a style that could match jack's crafty D.

it should be remembered that jack's record is a bit deceptive. instead of knocking out fighters as soon as he could, he would toy with them and punish them.

johnson's game was way ahead of his time. he was so far skilled than his opponents that he would frequently give a blow-by-blow commentary to ringside news reporters. he did this even when he fought an aged jeffries.

finally, jim himself had openly stated that he didn't believe that he could've beaten johnson on his best day.

THE REAL NINJA
06-26-2006, 02:38 PM
If Jeff beats Johnson we never hear of fighters such as Sam Langford, Joe Jennette <'spelling' :confused:
some of mine
what if ..Liston beat Clay ?
waht if Foreman beat Ali ?
what if Patterson never fights Liston ?
what if Ruddock beat Tyson ?..... he would be next to fight Holy or Buster if he had won
what if Marciano stuck around to fight Patterson ?
What if Louis lost to Max the 2nd time ? ...this would have a major impact on ww
funny when you think about how just one small event, one person can change the worlds history

SABBATH
06-27-2006, 12:01 AM
My Top Ten of "What If's"

1.-What if Johnson met Jeffries in 1905..
2.-What if Schmeling won the second Louis match...
3.-What if Ali went to prison in 1971 after Ali-Frazier I...
4.-What if Tyson kept Rooney and ignored Don King..
5.-What if Leonard had met Pryor..
6.-What if Willie Pep was never in a plane crash..
7.-What if Bowe actually fought Lewis in 1993...
8.-What if Holmes had unified the title in the early 80's...
9.-What if if Johnson had defended againt the other big three...
10.-What if Salvador Sanchez hadn't had that wreck...I'll choose a few and have a go.

1) Over a scheduled 45 rounds I would still pick Johnson. Jeffries soaked up punishment in his fights against Corbett, Fitzimmons and Sharkey neither who were comparable to a prime Johnson. Jeffries would force the action and score more to the body looking to wear Johnson down, but Johnson was very relaxed and confident and I still see him biding his time and picking Jeffries apart.

2) Schmeling would have returned to Germany and not left his homeland to defend it. Some predictable defences against European challengers with limited opportunities for US contenders (no blacks, no jews and no contenders who had Jewish managers ). With the onset of WW2 there would be no one to challenge Schmeling and the title would be in hiatus. An ugly messy situation with the belt in turmoil for a few years. Thank you Joe Louis!

3) Depends how long Ali went to prison. If it was for 3 years or more forget it. Foreman reigns for awhile, probably into the 80's if he stays in shape and focused.

4) Kevin Rooney was his trainer, not a miracle worker. Many fighters lose good trainers and continue to have success. Tyson didn't have a champion's mindset, that's what hurt him. Don King may have ripped Tyson off financially but he also extended his career in the 90's by providing easy fights (Razor Ruddock the exception) with big money pay-per-view fights against paper noneties like Henry Tillman, Peter McNeeley, Bruce Seldon and Frank Bruno (again!) while openly avoiding the top fighters of the time like Holyfield, Foreman, Bowe, and Lewis.

5) Leonard and Pryor is a great and exciting match-up with Leonard winning. Harder puncher, quicker fists, more accurate combinations, taller, stronger and with the better chin and balance. Leonard leads in most categories but Pryor's underrated boxing ability, deceptive reach (same as Leonard's) use of unpredictable angles, aggression, heart, stamina and workrate give "The Hawk" an early lead before Leonard's adaptibilty solves him and wins by late stoppage (gradually wears Pryor down and opens him up with left hook body shots) UD, or catches Pryor flush coming in and finishes him. Rounds 1-5 provides ultimate fireworks.

7) I would still pick Lewis over Bowe due in part to the psychological advantage of having stopped him in The Olympics. Bowe started to gradually regress after he won the title and his poor defence would allow Lewis to catch him and KO him.

8) Holmes-Weaver II would have been a good match-up with Weaver being more experienced and confident in the rematch and Holmes starting to slide a little. A tough fight with Holmes prevailing once again likely by decision. Michael Dokes and Greg Page were the two most talented heavyweights contenders around during Holmes's reign and both had the height, reach, left jab and boxing ability which were the proven ingredients to trouble Holmes. I think on a given night either guy with his 'A' game could have upset Holmes by decision. A shame neither fight was ever made.

10) Salvador Sanchez. A beautiful and complete fighter who had every tool in his arsenal. Sanchez would have likely fought a unification match with Eusebio Pedroza which would have been an extremely difficult matchup. I'll pick Sanchez by very narrow margin before he rules the feathers until he outgrows the division. Look at the rankings of the early 80's. There was no one on the horizon that matched Sanchez at that time although Azumah Nelson was really close.

Up in weight to junior lightweight I would pick Sanchez over the top guys like Rocky Lockridge, Boza Edwards, Bazooka Limon, Bobby Chacon and Rolando Navarette. A move up to lightweight is where it gets sticky. I would see tough fights with Hector Camacho, Edwin Rosario, Jose Luis Ramirez and later Julio Ceasar Chavez and Pernell Whittaker. I can see him losing fights with at least one of those top guys. In any event Sanchez would still be a top fighter into the late 80's at the very least.

Sanchez was tall for a featherweight (5'7), had a broad shouldered frame, was a solid puncher and was fundamentally solid so he is a very likely candidate to move up and have success in higher weight categories. I don't see him moving up as high as junior welter though.

Quality thread brother K.

RockyMarcianofan00
06-27-2006, 12:40 AM
Prime to Prime
I pick Jefferies- Not because I'm racist but because I believe that Jefferies proved his abilities aganst more Contenders of the time (not that Johnson could- he was black nobody wanted to fight him).. Jefferies fought Fitzsimmons, Corbett, Sharkey...I'm not saying Johnson can't win but I believe prime Jefferies was Physically stronger and hit harder...noted though Johnson was a defensive "wizard" but I think in a really long fight Jefferies could wear Johnson out....

hellfire508
06-27-2006, 04:24 AM
My Top Ten of "What If's"

10.-What if Salvador Sanchez hadn't had that wreck...

THAT should be number 1. He would have been another SRR IMO. He was amazing.

Southpaw Stinger
06-27-2006, 07:43 AM
Prime to Prime
I pick Jefferies- Not because I'm racist but because I believe that Jefferies proved his abilities aganst more Contenders of the time (not that Johnson could- he was black nobody wanted to fight him).. Jefferies fought Fitzsimmons, Corbett, Sharkey...I'm not saying Johnson can't win but I believe prime Jefferies was Physically stronger and hit harder...noted though Johnson was a defensive "wizard" but I think in a really long fight Jefferies could wear Johnson out....

Definatly agree with that.

K-DOGG
06-27-2006, 10:32 AM
I'll choose a few and have a go.

1) Over a scheduled 45 rounds I would still pick Johnson. Jeffries soaked up punishment in his fights against Corbett, Fitzimmons and Sharkey neither who were comparable to a prime Johnson. Jeffries would force the action and score more to the body looking to wear Johnson down, but Johnson was very relaxed and confident and I still see him biding his time and picking Jeffries apart.

2) Schmeling would have returned to Germany and not left his homeland to defend it. Some predictable defences against European challengers with limited opportunities for US contenders (no blacks, no jews and no contenders who had Jewish managers ). With the onset of WW2 there would be no one to challenge Schmeling and the title would be in hiatus. An ugly messy situation with the belt in turmoil for a few years. Thank you Joe Louis!

3) Depends how long Ali went to prison. If it was for 3 years or more forget it. Foreman reigns for awhile, probably into the 80's if he stays in shape and focused.

4) Kevin Rooney was his trainer, not a miracle worker. Many fighters lose good trainers and continue to have success. Tyson didn't have a champion's mindset, that's what hurt him. Don King may have ripped Tyson off financially but he also extended his career in the 90's by providing easy fights (Razor Ruddock the exception) with big money pay-per-view fights against paper noneties like Henry Tillman, Peter McNeeley, Bruce Seldon and Frank Bruno (again!) while openly avoiding the top fighters of the time like Holyfield, Foreman, Bowe, and Lewis.

5) Leonard and Pryor is a great and exciting match-up with Leonard winning. Harder puncher, quicker fists, more accurate combinations, taller, stronger and with the better chin and balance. Leonard leads in most categories but Pryor's underrated boxing ability, deceptive reach (same as Leonard's) use of unpredictable angles, aggression, heart, stamina and workrate give "The Hawk" an early lead before Leonard's adaptibilty solves him and wins by late stoppage (gradually wears Pryor down and opens him up with left hook body shots) UD, or catches Pryor flush coming in and finishes him. Rounds 1-5 provides ultimate fireworks.

7) I would still pick Lewis over Bowe due in part to the psychological advantage of having stopped him in The Olympics. Bowe started to gradually regress after he won the title and his poor defence would allow Lewis to catch him and KO him.

8) Holmes-Weaver II would have been a good match-up with Weaver being more experienced and confident in the rematch and Holmes starting to slide a little. A tough fight with Holmes prevailing once again likely by decision. Michael Dokes and Greg Page were the two most talented heavyweights contenders around during Holmes's reign and both had the height, reach, left jab and boxing ability which were the proven ingredients to trouble Holmes. I think on a given night either guy with his 'A' game could have upset Holmes by decision. A shame neither fight was ever made.

10) Salvador Sanchez. A beautiful and complete fighter who had every tool in his arsenal. Sanchez would have likely fought a unification match with Eusebio Pedroza which would have been an extremely difficult matchup. I'll pick Sanchez by very narrow margin before he rules the feathers until he outgrows the division. Look at the rankings of the early 80's. There was no one on the horizon that matched Sanchez at that time although Azumah Nelson was really close.

Up in weight to junior lightweight I would pick Sanchez over the top guys like Rocky Lockridge, Boza Edwards, Bazooka Limon, Bobby Chacon and Rolando Navarette. A move up to lightweight is where it gets sticky. I would see tough fights with Hector Camacho, Edwin Rosario, Jose Luis Ramirez and later Julio Ceasar Chavez and Pernell Whittaker. I can see him losing fights with at least one of those top guys. In any event Sanchez would still be a top fighter into the late 80's at the very least.

Sanchez was tall for a featherweight (5'7), had a broad shouldered frame, was a solid puncher and was fundamentally solid so he is a very likely candidate to move up and have success in higher weight categories. I don't see him moving up as high as junior welter though.

Quality thread brother K.

Great Post Sabbath.

oldgringo
06-27-2006, 10:50 AM
a couple of points i'll briefly give my opinion on:

i believe ray leonard did just about everything better than aaron pryor and i don't see him losing to pryor at 147. he was bigger, naturally more powerful with his punches, had quicker hands, was very intelligent, had a great chin, etc. i just cannot see him beating or even outworking ray in any format. his best chance is if ray fought him like he fought duran in their first bout, but even then i'd take leonard.

had sanchez not died i believe he would have been beaten by a much more well schooled azumah nelson later on in their respective careers. nelson hadn't fought ANYBODY of any note to prepare him for the machine that was sal, and he still gave sal hell with his strength and determination. once he truely learned how to box he was a master of many aspects of the game and was one of the most well rounded little guys in the sport.

once he refined his skills and knowledge he teamed that with his excellent strength...then he became a monster. he would beat sal in an excellent rematch.

SABBATH
06-27-2006, 11:00 AM
had sanchez not died i believe he would have been beaten by a much more well schooled azumah nelson later on in their respective careers. nelson hadn't fought ANYBODY of any note to prepare him for the machine that was sal, and he still gave sal hell with his strength and determination. once he truely learned how to box he was a master of many aspects of the game and was one of the most well rounded little guys in the sport.

once he refined his skills and knowledge he teamed that with his excellent strength...then he became a monster. he would beat sal in an excellent rematch.
I re-watched their classic fight last night after my post and wrestled with the same thoughts. My final conclusion was that Sanchez would have left the featherweight division after a Pedroza unification match leaving Nelson to rule the feathers and Sanchez would have always been a little bigger and stronger. Azumah was physically smaller in build and Sanchez was able to seriously hurt him several times before KO'ing him in their fight although Nelson did hurt Sanchez and was coming on late before being KO'd. I would never rule out Nelson re-matching with Sanchez and winning. Azumah was a truly great fighter, one of my favourites.

Brassangel
06-27-2006, 11:37 AM
What if Ali never had a layoff? Would he still have had so much trouble with Joe Frazier? How long would he have been champion?

The Patterson-Marciano scenario is one of my favorites. Floyd had quick hands and great boxing skill. He likely would have given Marciano a lesson. Then again, Floyd couldn't take much of a punch, and Rocky could punch all night long.

As for Tyson, I don't think it's the loss of Rooney that doomed him. It was the "invincibility" complex he had built up around himself. Killed any hope of heart, adaptability, and ring generalship he showed at least the slightest ability to learn before becoming champion. Even with King he showed signs of hope against Ruddock, but threw it away by becoming a criminal by trade.

I think that Johnson's win over Jeffries is vastly overrated. I would like to see them duke it out in their respective primes.

Brassangel
06-27-2006, 11:39 AM
Also, how great would Foreman have been considered if he never won the title in his 40's?

Azteca
06-28-2006, 01:15 AM
very well said, oldgringo. just to give my opinion a little bit:

I have watched, i mean REALLY watched a lot of salvador sanchez lately. i am coming to the opinion that he may be the best ALL ROUND fighter I have seen, ever. his lead right was almost impossible to block or avoid, it seemed. his chin was of the utmost sturdiness and his footwork pure poetry. he's like a 126lb Ali without the flash but with a big punch and a whole range of punches beyond the straight 1-2 (i love ali but his punch variety was almost nonexistent)

all round, I think he's better than leonard, robinson etc. as an all round package - power, skills, speed, punch, chin, defence, ring smarts- the only boxer I can think of that may compete is Duran.

Azteca
06-28-2006, 01:23 AM
a couple of points i'll briefly give my opinion on:

i believe ray leonard did just about everything better than aaron pryor and i don't see him losing to pryor at 147. he was bigger, naturally more powerful with his punches, had quicker hands, was very intelligent, had a great chin, etc. i just cannot see him beating or even outworking ray in any format. his best chance is if ray fought him like he fought duran in their first bout, but even then i'd take leonard.



i like the way you think, kid. really i do, but i have a sneaking suspicion you weren't around at the time this fight was mentioned. in order to fully understand what happened, you had to of been there at the time when people wanted pryor - leonard.

what i am talking about is the window of opportunity at 140-147. let's face it, leonard was where the money was and he was the one calling the shots. don't get me wrong, i am a great fan of leonard, however, one of the most manipulative fighters ever to have donned some gloves. in my collection i have loads of interviews as well as 2000+ bouts, one of these interviews is with leonard only a couple of years ago, he was being very candid about his whole career. no topic was out of bounds.

leonard goes on to say that for the montreal olympics, 'i moved out of pryor's weight catagory, to avoid him, the man was too dangerous.' he went on to add 'after i captured the welterweight title, pryor asked me out but i felt he was too dangerous an opponent at that stage of my career.' the interviewer states he feels a lot of people listening might find that surprising, leonard states, i don't think many realise how good aaron was, he was lethal. don't get me wrong, i would have fought him, but at that stage i wasn't ready. ask Tommy, I think he would agree with me.' leonard starts laughing...

for these reasons and these reasons alone i feel you are not giving pryor enough credit.

oldgringo
06-28-2006, 08:04 AM
I don't think Sal was physically stronger than Nelson whatsoever. Nelson may have been shorter, but I thought he had a clear edge in his strength. Sanchez was just so much more well rounded at that time that he was able to do a lot of things to Nelson that he hadn't seen before.

By the time they both got to 130 it would have been an even as all hell match in my opinion. Zoom had a knack for better performances in his rematches. Sanchez was a more agile, fluid guy...Nelson had the sheer strength. I always just felt that if he was able to perform that well against Sal being that inexperienced that he'd do much better his second go around.

I really wish it would have happened. :(

oldgringo
06-28-2006, 08:14 AM
i like the way you think, kid. really i do, but i have a sneaking suspicion you weren't around at the time this fight was mentioned. in order to fully understand what happened, you had to of been there at the time when people wanted pryor - leonard.

what i am talking about is the window of opportunity at 140-147. let's face it, leonard was where the money was and he was the one calling the shots. don't get me wrong, i am a great fan of leonard, however, one of the most manipulative fighters ever to have donned some gloves. in my collection i have loads of interviews as well as 2000+ bouts, one of these interviews is with leonard only a couple of years ago, he was being very candid about his whole career. no topic was out of bounds.

leonard goes on to say that for the montreal olympics, 'i moved out of pryor's weight catagory, to avoid him, the man was too dangerous.' he went on to add 'after i captured the welterweight title, pryor asked me out but i felt he was too dangerous an opponent at that stage of my career.' the interviewer states he feels a lot of people listening might find that surprising, leonard states, i don't think many realise how good aaron was, he was lethal. don't get me wrong, i would have fought him, but at that stage i wasn't ready. ask Tommy, I think he would agree with me.' leonard starts laughing...

for these reasons and these reasons alone i feel you are not giving pryor enough credit.


i wasn't in the midst of leonard/pryor discussions at all. i have read a fair deal about this "never-was" fight and my understanding is that it was a fight that true boxing fans wanted and never received. ray knew pryor was dangerous, but he wasn't a big draw and yielded small rewards. i hate ray leonard with a passion, but i respect his skills. this was supposed to happen before ray retired for the second time correct?

that being said i just cannot see how ray leonard, after beating the most lethal man in the sport at the time (hearns), duran and benitez would lose to pryor. just can't see it.

THE REAL NINJA
06-28-2006, 09:00 AM
i wasn't in the midst of leonard/pryor discussions at all. i have read a fair deal about this "never-was" fight and my understanding is that it was a fight that true boxing fans wanted and never received. ray knew pryor was dangerous, but he wasn't a big draw and yielded small rewards. i hate ray leonard with a passion, but i respect his skills. this was supposed to happen before ray retired for the second time correct?

that being said i just cannot see how ray leonard, after beating the most lethal man in the sport at the time (hearns), duran and benitez would lose to pryor. just can't see it.
i could be wrong but i think they were sparring partners at some point and Pryor got the better of Ray to the point that he never wanted to fight him...but you never know what would happen in a real fight the same was said before terry norris Vs paul vaden and that was a one sided bore fest

Dynamite76
06-28-2006, 10:18 AM
1)What if Gerry Cooney won the WBA heavyweight title?
2)What if James "Quick" Tillis beat Mike Weaver for the WBA heavyweight title?
3)What if Howard Davis Jr fought Gene Hatcher and/or Billy Costello for the jr welterweight belts?
4)What if Harry Wills fought Jack Dempsey?
5)What if Ray Robinson fought Charley Burley?
6)What if Roberto Duran fought Antonio Cervantes?
7)What if Jimmy Bivins fought Joey Maxim for the light heavyweight belt?
8)What if John L Sullivan got cajones and fought Peter Jackson?

SABBATH
06-28-2006, 10:56 AM
i could be wrong but i think they were sparring partners at some point and Pryor got the better of Ray to the point that he never wanted to fight him...but you never know what would happen in a real fight the same was said before terry norris Vs paul vaden and that was a one sided bore fest The two never came close to fighting.

When Leonard won the welterweight title from Benitez in 1979 Pryor was a still just a rising lightweight contender.

In 1980 Leonard was preoccupied with the 2 Duran fights when Pryor moved up in weight and won the junior-welterweight title. When Pryor defended against Gaetan Hart days before Leonard-Duran II, he challenged both fighters in his post fight interview. That was the earliest time I can recall a Leonard-Pryor match being even thought of.

In 1981 Leonard-Hearns was THE fight everyone wanted to see and Pryor did not fit into the scheme.

In 1982 it was assumed Leonard would be targeting a Marvin Hagler fight. Leonard had one fight against Bruce Finch in early 1982 before detaching his retina in the spring and retiring. At this time Pryor was focused on fighting Arguello which had been set for November that year.

With Leonard already retired Pryor also anounced his retirement following Arguello II in 1983.

When Leonard came out of retirement in 1984 and fought Kevin Howard, it was supposed to be the first step towards a Hagler fight who was at ringside watching that night. Pryor ended his short retirement also with hopes of fighting Ray Mancini or Leonard. Pryor had already been stripped of his WBA belt but the IBF still recognized him as chamnpion.

Pryor was in Oakville Ontario training for Nicky Furlano when he went to Buffalo New York to see Mancini lose his title to Livingstone Bramble. I was around Pryor's training camp at the time and was told by his trainers that Pryor was openly crying when Mancini lost.

After Leonard retiring again after Howard, and Mancini losing his title, Hector Camacho the new junior-lightweight champion began being mentioned as a potential Pryor opponent in August 1984. The two fighters were interviewed together on CBS about it. Pryor was already a drug user at this time, and defended once more against Gary Hinton in 1985 before slipping off the rails into full-blown drug addiction.

As you can see the timeline never had an availabilty for a Leonard-Pryor fight. Leonard always sought the next challenge in increments. Benitez-Duran-Hearns-Hagler. Pryor would have been a good money fight, but it was a step back and not a match that public wanted more than Duran, Hearns or Hagler which were massive at the time.

I speak with Pryor now and again and he told me he was at most a natural lightweight and would only have gone as high as welterweight to fight Leonard. Pryor had no interest in the fighting the next wave of welters such as Donald Curry or Milton Mcrrory.

As for Leonard and Pryor sparring, it reputedly happened in the amateurs and I heard Leonard got the better of Pryor. If you guys want, I'll ask Aaron for for his version of events and post it but I can already predict what he'll probably say.

Azteca
06-28-2006, 03:56 PM
re sabbath:
my above post refers to an interview where leonard goes over his career. leonard says these exact words: 'i moved out of pryor's weight catagory, to avoid him, the man was too dangerous.' leonard was one of the smartest fighters ever from a business sense. he was always able to manipulate his way around certain deals because he was the media darling.

again, leonard released pryor from training, FACT, not the other way around. to state pryor was battered in sparring is bull****.

i would also love to hear what pryor has to say. keep us posted.

Azteca
06-28-2006, 04:04 PM
re oldgringo:
you are correct. at the time, i will admit, leonard did have bigger fish to fry. i heard one time on cbs in the 80's pryor called out leonard and leonard apparentely **** his pants. this may just be a rumour, i will try to find out.

what makes pryor so special is the unanswered questions about the man. an enigma. he was the most avoided man of his generation.

the problem with pryor is as a marketable product he fell between two stools: not the eloquent leonard and not the panamanian devil. hearns remembered as an amatuer he hit pryor clean again and again with clean punches for pryor to win. do not get me wrong they would have fought him if the money was right, however, it was more lucrative for them to fight amongst themselves and not invite Pryor to the party. sadly, we will never know how great those fights would have been.

Azteca
06-28-2006, 04:06 PM
what if:
de jesus won the rubber match with duran.

SABBATH
06-28-2006, 04:10 PM
re sabbath:
my above post refers to an interview where leonard goes over his career. leonard says these exact words: 'i moved out of pryor's weight catagory, to avoid him, the man was too dangerous.' leonard was one of the smartest fighters ever from a business sense. he was always able to manipulate his way around certain deals because he was the media darling.

again, leonard released pryor from training, FACT, not the other way around. to state pryor was battered in sparring is bull****.

i would also love to hear what pryor has to say. Keep us posted. The sparring session reputedly happened in the amateurs there was no releasing of anyone as they were both sharing the same camp although I did also read that it was in the pros and Pryor was fired after a couple of weeks.

I don't know where you are getting the term battered from. I never said that. I said Leonard "got the better" of Pryor meaning he had the upper hand during their sessions.

I watched Pryor spar close to a hundred rounds live in his prime and he was very wild and sometimes off balance and sloppy in sparring. I saw him get dropped by an 18 year old amateur, who believe it or not was his best sparring partner. Pryor also used Jerome Artis and Darryl Anthony and neither had the success against Pryor that the 18 year old had. I asked Aaron a coule of years ago who the kid was but he couldn't remember.

I'll speak to him and get back to this forum with his answer.

Azteca
06-28-2006, 04:28 PM
The sparring session reputedly happened in the amateurs there was no releasing of anyone as they were both sharing the same camp although I did also read that it was in the pros and Pryor was fired after a couple of weeks.

I don't know where you are getting the term battered from. I never said that. I said Leonard "got the better" of Pryor meaning he had the upper hand during their sessions.

I watched Pryor spar close to a hundred rounds live in his prime and he was very wild and sometimes off balance and sloppy in sparring. I saw him get dropped by an 18 year old amateur, who believe it or not was his best sparring partner. Pryor also used Jerome Artis and Darryl Anthony and neither had the success against Pryor that the 18 year old had. I asked Aaron a coule of years ago who the kid was but he couldn't remember.

I'll speak to him and get back to this forum with his answer.

re sabbath:
very nice. it would be great if you could get back to the forum with his answers.