View Full Version : No boxer could have beat Mike Tyson on the 22nd of November, 1986


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:Bobby:
06-25-2006, 09:07 AM
On that night Mike Tyson was the best fighter to ever step into the ring, nobody could have beat him; he had it all: power, speed, determination, heart, aggression, everything.

In my view it is sad to see a lot of so-called boxing fans pretend to know Tyson was just a bully or a bum and they say he never beat a good fighter.

There might have been boxers with a better resume, a better record, but there is no one who could have been able to defeat a prime Tyson.

Southpaw Stinger
06-25-2006, 10:20 AM
On that night Mike Tyson was the best fighter to ever step into the ring, nobody could have beat him

Sorry but that is not true. I can think of quite a few boxers who would have beat any version of Tyson.
Prime Foreman, Ali and Liston would all have schooled him that night.

You can't take Tysons performance over a less than decent champ to make such an argument.

Mike Tyson77
06-25-2006, 11:20 AM
Sorry but that is not true. I can think of quite a few boxers who would have beat any version of Tyson.
Prime Foreman, Ali and Liston would all have schooled him that night.

You can't take Tysons performance over a less than decent champ to make such an argument.


Tyson would have smashed Liston in 1 round. Gave Ali a boxing lesson, and forced the ref to the stop the fight when he's pulling off 8 punch combos on Big George.


No one beats a Pime "Iron" Mike Tyson.

Frazier's 15th round
06-25-2006, 12:05 PM
These threads are so stupid. So and so was unbeatable on this night. No, he wasn't. He may have looked awesome, but someone could have beaten him. This goes for Tyson, Lewis, Holmes, Foreman, Frazier, Ali, Marciano, Dempsey, Louis, Jeffries, etc.

Frazier's 15th round
06-25-2006, 12:06 PM
Oh, and Liston would **** Tyson up.

:Bobby:
06-25-2006, 12:12 PM
These threads are so stupid. So and so was unbeatable on this night. No, he wasn't. He may have looked awesome, but someone could have beaten him. This goes for Tyson, Lewis, Holmes, Foreman, Frazier, Ali, Marciano, Dempsey, Louis, Jeffries, etc.
Got you.

How do you know they could have beaten him? How?
You say the thread was stupid, so is it smart to say my point was incorrect and to name a dozen boxers you could have beaten Tyson on that night?

The Noose
06-25-2006, 12:25 PM
Wat night was that? Im guessing its either the Spinks fight or Berbick.

Anyway, IMO, its kinda ridiculous to say any fighter is unbeatable based on one performance aginst one fighter. Maybe he looked absolutly great, and destroyed a highly rated fighter, but it was only one fight.

If Tyson met anuyone else, it would have been a different fight, with maybe a different outcome.

How do you know they could have beaten him? How?

The question should be "How do u know he would have beaten anyone?"

To say on that ONE night he was the best fighter to ever step in the ring is a very farfetched statement.

Frazier's 15th round
06-25-2006, 12:54 PM
How do you know they could have beaten him? How?
You say the thread was stupid, so is it smart to say my point was incorrect and to name a dozen boxers you could have beaten Tyson on that night?

I didn't list those guys as the ones who would beat Tyson (although all of them COULD), I mentioned them because they all usually have a fight in their career where they look unbeatable. I added Tyson to that list because you just mentioned him in this thread. They all had nights where they looked unbeatable, but they really weren't.

SquareCircle
06-25-2006, 01:04 PM
Tyson would have smashed Liston in 1 round. Gave Ali a boxing lesson, and forced the ref to the stop the fight when he's pulling off 8 punch combos on Big George.


No one beats a Pime "Iron" Mike Tyson.
are you kidding...

mike, once asked which fighter he feared the most, replied with 'sonny liston'

with the mental struggle already in favor of liston, how do you think the fight would fare?

K-DOGG
06-25-2006, 01:06 PM
On that night Mike Tyson was the best fighter to ever step into the ring, nobody could have beat him; he had it all: power, speed, determination, heart, aggression, everything.

In my view it is sad to see a lot of so-called boxing fans pretend to know Tyson was just a bully or a bum and they say he never beat a good fighter.

There might have been boxers with a better resume, a better record, but there is no one who could have been able to defeat a prime Tyson.

Hmm....a bit of an exageration here, bud. Mike was awesome; but it was against Trevor Berbick.

Some fighters to think about:

1.-The Jack Johnson who fought Tommy Burns.
2.-The Joe Louis who fought Schmeling in 1938.
3.-The Rocky Marciano who took the title from Walcott.
4.-The Max Baer who beat Schmeling.
5.-The Jack Johnson who fought Jeffries.
6.-The Muhammad Ali who fought Williams in 1966.
7.-The Joe Frazier who fought Ali in 1971.
8.-The George Foreman who fought Frazier in 1973.
9.-The Muhammad Ali who fougth Foreman in 1974.
10.-The Larry Holmes who fought Ken Norton in 1978.
11.-The Larry Holmes who fought Gerry Cooney in 1982.
12.-The Lennox Lewis who fought Andrew Golota.


These are just some examples of fighters I believe could have beaten the Mike Tyson of the Berbick fight.

K-DOGG
06-25-2006, 01:13 PM
Honorable mentions:

1.-The Sonny Liston who fought Floyd Patterson...either time.
2.-The Buster Douglas who fought Mike Tyson.
3.-The Jack Dempsey who fought Jess Willard.
4.-The James J. Jeffries who fought Bob Fitzsimmons
5.-The George Foreman who fought Gerry Cooney.


There are more; but I'll stop there. Don't misinterpret me in thinking that I think Mike wasn't an all time great, for I do; but any fighter, no matter how awesome he is, can be beaten on any given night....for just as many other great fighters had nights when they looked invincible. Mike does not own the market on "unbeatable nights".

Mike Tyson77
06-25-2006, 01:13 PM
are you kidding...

mike, once asked which fighter he feared the most, replied with 'sonny liston'

with the mental struggle already in favor of liston, how do you think the fight would fare?

He respects Liston. But Liston was overrated. I have looked at his record watched his fights. He's great, but not as good as some make him out to be. Tyson was too devastating a puncher and had a great defense. I dont think a Tyson from 86-88 could have been beat.

The Noose
06-25-2006, 01:26 PM
Honorable mentions:

1.-The Sonny Liston who fought Floyd Patterson...either time.
2.-The Buster Douglas who fought Mike Tyson.
3.-The Jack Dempsey who fought Jess Willard.
4.-The James J. Jeffries who fought Bob Fitzsimmons
5.-The George Foreman who fought Gerry Cooney.




I get wat your saying, but your list is a strange response.
Any of these fighters, wen faced with a different opponent would fight differently.

So the Liston who fought Patterson, for example, would have had a different challenge against Tyson. Therefore Listons performance against Patterson is irrelevant unless ur talking about the similarities between Patterson and Tyson.

K-DOGG
06-25-2006, 01:31 PM
I get wat your saying, but your list is a strange response.
Any of these fighters, wen faced with a different opponent would fight differently.

So the Liston who fought Patterson, for example, would have had a different challenge against Tyson. Therefore Listons performance against Patterson is irrelevant unless ur talking about the similarities between Patterson and Tyson.

True; but I usually follow the addage that boxing is 90% mental. To me, frame of mind is everything. The fights I chose are more examples of the particular fighter's frame of mind and the subsequent result of that mindset.

Southpaw Stinger
06-25-2006, 01:40 PM
2.-The Joe Louis who fought Schmeling in 1938.
3.-The Rocky Marciano who took the title from Walcott.
4.-The Max Baer who beat Schmeling.
5.-The Jack Johnson who fought Jeffries.
6.-The Muhammad Ali who fought Williams in 1966.
7.-The Joe Frazier who fought Ali in 1971.
8.-The George Foreman who fought Frazier in 1973.
9.-The Muhammad Ali who fougth Foreman in 1974.
10.-The Larry Holmes who fought Ken Norton in 1978.
11.-The Larry Holmes who fought Gerry Cooney in 1982.
12.-The Lennox Lewis who fought Andrew Golota.


These are just some examples of fighters I believe could have beaten the Mike Tyson of the Berbick fight.

Completely agree.

People have to remember that Berbick wasn't a great hevyweight - and he was **** scared of Tyson which didn't help. Tyson would be scared and out muscled by the likes of Liston and Foreman, he would be out classed by the likes of Ali and Louis and he would be outworked by Frazier. The list continues...

:Bobby:
06-25-2006, 01:43 PM
Completely agree.

People have to remember that Berbick wasn't a great hevyweight - and he was **** scared of Tyson which didn't help. Tyson would be scared and out muscled by the likes of Liston and Foreman, he would be out classed by the likes of Ali and Louis and he would be outworked by Frazier. The list continues...
Come on now, Brbick wasn't scared AT ALL.

Why do you think Tyson would be scared of Ali and Louis?

Southpaw Stinger
06-25-2006, 01:46 PM
Why do you think Tyson would be scared of Ali and Louis

I didn't say that. I said he would be scared of Foreman and Liston because he admitted he was!

And Berbick was obviously intimidated by Tyson as many of his opponents were. Holyfield wasn't intimidated by Tyson and we saw the result of that.

The Noose
06-25-2006, 01:48 PM
Come on now, Brbick wasn't scared AT ALL.

Why do you think Tyson would be scared of Ali and Louis?

He would be intimidated and his fraglie mindset (as exposed in the Holyfield fights) was perfect for Ali to toy with.

:Bobby:
06-25-2006, 01:51 PM
Stop mentioning the post-prison fights as an indication for what prime Tyson was or would have done, please.

Southpaw Stinger
06-25-2006, 01:54 PM
Stop mentioning the post-prison fights as an indication for what prime Tyson was or would have done, please.

I didn't. Except for Holyfield, but I was talking about Holyfields attitude not Tysons.

Yaman
06-25-2006, 02:28 PM
Im one of Tyson's biggest fans. And well, its very hard to judge something like this, because fighters have bad nights and good nights. And when you're talking 2 great fighters fighting eachother at their best night, and they're from diffirent eras etc etc..it becomes complicated.
Bottom line is..no fighter is invincible, they'll meet someone who can take advantage of their style eventually.

Dont be redicilous.

Southpaw16
06-25-2006, 02:28 PM
Tyson would have smashed Liston in 1 round. Gave Ali a boxing lesson, and forced the ref to the stop the fight when he's pulling off 8 punch combos on Big George.


No one beats a Pime "Iron" Mike Tyson.

Tyson would have given Ali a boxing lesson?? What?? Are you actually serious?? Try to visualize that fight happening, and then try to visualize Tyson giving Ali a boxing lesson. I think Holyfield or Lewis in their prime beat Mike Tyson on any night of his career, but to suggest that he gives Ali a boxing lesson is just ridiculous. Also, there is no way he could beat Foreman, for the simple reason that Foreman was so strong that he would have been able to get Tyson backing up and Tyson doesn't know how to fight backing up. A swarming fighter like Tyson would never be able to beat a prime Foreman, look what happened to Frazier and Norton. But to suggest that Tyson gives Ali a boxing lesson is definately the most absurd thing that you said.

Southpaw Stinger
06-25-2006, 03:58 PM
Tyson would have given Ali a boxing lesson?? What?? Are you actually serious?? Try to visualize that fight happening, and then try to visualize Tyson giving Ali a boxing lesson. I think Holyfield or Lewis in their prime beat Mike Tyson on any night of his career, but to suggest that he gives Ali a boxing lesson is just ridiculous. Also, there is no way he could beat Foreman, for the simple reason that Foreman was so strong that he would have been able to get Tyson backing up and Tyson doesn't know how to fight backing up. A swarming fighter like Tyson would never be able to beat a prime Foreman, look what happened to Frazier and Norton. But to suggest that Tyson gives Ali a boxing lesson is definately the most absurd thing that you said.

I completely agree with you there man.

Verstyle
06-25-2006, 04:02 PM
Sorry but that is not true. I can think of quite a few boxers who would have beat any version of Tyson.
Prime Foreman, Ali and Liston would all have schooled him that night.

You can't take Tysons performance over a less than decent champ to make such an argument.


oh your wrong there. liston??? have u really even seen him fight. dude aint all that great to watch,foreman is to damn slow,and ali woulda got done up like tyson did tyrell biggs

Verstyle
06-25-2006, 04:04 PM
Oh, and Liston would **** Tyson up.


and u think this because???? liston is ****in slow u actually gotta be there to get hit and we all know that tyson's defense was superb. and tyson has been hit by big hitters before and he sill stood up

K-DOGG
06-25-2006, 04:07 PM
and u think this because???? liston is ****in slow u actually gotta be there to get hit and we all know that tyson's defense was superb. and tyson has been hit by big hitters before and he sill stood up

Have you ever seen the Liston before Clay??...the one kicking ass and taking names in the late '50's?

and "Ali would get done up like Biggs"? Are you serious? Who ever...and I mean EVER stopped Ali?

No, don't think so. You've been hyptnotized.

Verstyle
06-25-2006, 04:08 PM
Stop mentioning the post-prison fights as an indication for what prime Tyson was or would have done, please.


dont worry whenever talkin about a PRIME tyson they always refer to his days outta his prime.they only do it with tyson which is weird :confused:

Verstyle
06-25-2006, 04:10 PM
Have you ever seen the Liston before Clay??...the one kicking ass and taking names in the late '50's?

and "Ali would get done up like Biggs"? Are you serious? Who ever...and I mean EVER stopped Ali?

No, don't think so. You've been hyptnotized.


who ever and i mean ever has ali fought that had speed and power and defense like a prime tyson. please give me names :rolleyes:

Southpaw Stinger
06-25-2006, 04:14 PM
oh your wrong there. liston??? have u really even seen him fight. dude aint all that great to watch,foreman is to damn slow,and ali woulda got done up like tyson did tyrell biggs

Yeah I seen Liston in his prime, he is more intimidating than Tyson - he had an amazing jab, long reach, strength, power and size and would beat Tyson IMO.
Foreman wasn't that slow in his prime and besides, Tyson would be trying to get on the inside of Foreman and he would get crushed in the process. Foreman is too big and strong for someone like Tyson.
And if you compare Ali to tyrell biggs you got a problem.
Ali is faster than Tyson with a great reach, a great chin and is incredibly adaptable in the ring and has too much stamina.

K-DOGG
06-25-2006, 04:16 PM
who ever and i mean ever has ali fought that had speed and power and defense like a prime tyson. please give me names :rolleyes:

Power....Liston, Foreman, Lyle, and Shavers
Speed....Patterson was probably the most comparable.


But...Who has Tyson ever faced with the handspeed/footspeed combination of an Ali?

Answer..no one.

If Tyson had trouble with Tucker, and Douglas (Mike was still in his prime against Douglas as evidenced by his dominating performances over Stewart and Ruddock...too bad he wasn't in shape; but that's no excuse). If Douglas could do that to Tyson...Ali would have messed him up.

Also, Mike was proven to be a mentally fragile individual...that didn't just happen in prison. He was an orphaned kid who beat up old ladies and molested young girls...he was insecure and needed to dominte others to feel strong in himself.

Ali's mindgames would have messed him up before the bell rang.

Verstyle
06-25-2006, 04:19 PM
Yeah I seen Liston in his prime, he is more intimidating than Tyson - he had an amazing jab, long reach, strength, power and size and would beat Tyson IMO.
Foreman wasn't that slow in his prime and besides, Tyson would be trying to get on the inside of Foreman and he would get crushed in the process. Foreman is too big and strong for someone like Tyson.
And if you compare Ali to tyrell biggs you got a problem.
Ali is faster than Tyson with a great reach, a great chin and is incredibly adaptable in the ring and has too much stamina.


u tellin me a prime tyson didnt have alot of stamina??? and tyson is a mid-range fighter.frazier was pretty much a inside fighter big difference when facing tyson.and all the things u mentioned about liston 1 thing u didnt mention that he doesnt have is speed.and as i stated before how r u going to hit some1 that u cant touch and counters off of every slow punch u throw :cool:

Southpaw Stinger
06-25-2006, 04:22 PM
and all the things u mentioned about liston 1 thing u didnt mention that he doesnt have is speed.and as i stated before how r u going to hit some1 that u cant touch and counters off of every slow punch u throw

Liston flattened Patterson in one round, and Patterson is faster than Tyson.
Since Tyson moves forwards Liston is going to connect.

Verstyle
06-25-2006, 04:24 PM
Power....Liston, Foreman, Lyle, and Shavers
Speed....Patterson was probably the most comparable.


But...Who has Tyson ever faced with the handspeed/footspeed combination of an Ali?

Answer..no one.

If Tyson had trouble with Tucker, and Douglas (Mike was still in his prime against Douglas as evidenced by his dominating performances over Stewart and Ruddock...too bad he wasn't in shape; but that's no excuse). If Douglas could do that to Tyson...Ali would have messed him up.

Also, Mike was proven to be a mentally fragile individual...that didn't just happen in prison. He was an orphaned kid who beat up old ladies and molested young girls...he was insecure and needed to dominte others to feel strong in himself.

Ali's mindgames would have messed him up before the bell rang.


tyson didnt have a problem with tucker ahahahahaha. he won like every round so how is that having a problem :confused: think about that :cool:

and biggs wasnt as fast as ali but he did have the handspeed and footspeed combination and quick tillis and tony tucker

Verstyle
06-25-2006, 04:25 PM
Liston flattened Patterson in one round, and Patterson is faster than Tyson.
Since Tyson moves forwards Liston is going to connect.


yeah tyson moves foward but we all know patterson wasnt as fast with defense then tyson and had power like tyson. plus tyson was a better counter puncher also and very elusive

K-DOGG
06-25-2006, 04:27 PM
tyson didnt have a problem with tucker ahahahahaha. he won like every round so how is that having a problem :confused: think about that :cool:

and biggs wasnt as fast as ali but he did have the handspeed and footspeed combination and quick tillis and tony tucker

Go back and look at the Tucker fight. The first 5 rounds were split. It was only after Tucker went into survival mode that Mike dominated. And, obviously he had trouble or he would have knocked him out. :D

Verstyle
06-25-2006, 04:29 PM
Go back and look at the Tucker fight. The first 5 rounds were split. It was only after Tucker went into survival mode that Mike dominated. And, obviously he had trouble or he would have knocked him out. :D


the first 5 rounds wasnt split ahaha. thats my favorite fight of all time i watch it constantly.and its hard to ko some1 thats running most of the time. jus ask ali's opponents

K-DOGG
06-25-2006, 04:32 PM
the first 5 rounds wasnt split ahaha. thats my favorite fight of all time i watch it constantly.and its hard to ko some1 thats running most of the time. jus ask ali's opponents

He wasn't running. He was holding and Mike was letting him, showing his ineptitude at infighting. And the first 5 round were split. Tucker won some rounds somewhere....in the first 5 rounds when he was strong. Otherwise the scores would have read a shutout...which they didn't.

Southpaw Stinger
06-25-2006, 04:33 PM
and its hard to ko some1 thats running most of the time.

Which is why Tyson would not stop Ali. Ali could run for 15 rounds and he had a great chin when/if you caught him.

I'm not sayin it would be an easy fight for Ali. Ali would obviously would have trouble with Tyson but he would come out on top in the end. And Tyson has a better chance of beating Ali than he does of beating Foreman. We're talkin styles here man.

Verstyle
06-25-2006, 04:35 PM
He wasn't running. He was holding and Mike was letting him, showing his ineptitude at infighting. And the first 5 round were split. Tucker won some rounds somewhere....in the first 5 rounds when he was strong. Otherwise the scores would have read a shutout...which they didn't.


i give tucker maybe the first and second round. ok he wasnt running he was dancing ;)

Verstyle
06-25-2006, 04:36 PM
Which is why Tyson would not stop Ali. Ali could run for 15 rounds and he had a great chin when/if you caught him.

I'm not sayin it would be an easy fight for Ali. Ali would obviously would have trouble with Tyson but he would come out on top in the end. And Tyson has a better chance of beating Ali than he does of beating Foreman. We're talkin styles here man.


yeah i know were talkin styles. tyson had those great fients and was really good at gettin on the inside. ppl that ali fought that smothered his **** he had problems with

K-DOGG
06-25-2006, 04:40 PM
i give tucker maybe the first and second round. ok he wasnt running he was dancing ;)

Then you just admitted you were wrong. If you give Tucker the 1st and 2nd, that's 2 of the first 5 rounds...aka, they were split.

And...you never answered my question about Liston. Did you ever see any prime footage of Liston? Did you ever see any fight other than the two Ali fights? Liston looked slow against Ali because Ali was so fast...and Liston was 31 going on 35 by then.

Without seeing prime Liston footage, you can't accurately say how fast he was.

Southpaw Stinger
06-25-2006, 04:40 PM
yeah i know were talkin styles. tyson had those great fients and was really good at gettin on the inside. ppl that ali fought that smothered his **** he had problems with

Yeah I know man. Norton and Frazier tried to smother Ali and they both had 1 win over on him.

Norton and Frazier tried to smother Foreman and they got pasted in 2 rounds...

Verstyle
06-25-2006, 04:45 PM
Then you just admitted you were wrong. If you give Tucker the 1st and 2nd, that's 2 of the first 5 rounds...aka, they were split.

And...you never answered my question about Liston. Did you ever see any prime footage of Liston? Did you ever see any fight other than the two Ali fights? Liston looked slow against Ali because Ali was so fast...and Liston was 31 going on 35 by then.

Without seeing prime Liston footage, you can't accurately say how fast he was.


actually i have. his speed still wasnt all that fast. and tyson could still get outta the way of it

marvdave
06-25-2006, 06:04 PM
On that night Mike Tyson was the best fighter to ever step into the ring, nobody could have beat him; he had it all: power, speed, determination, heart, aggression, everything.

In my view it is sad to see a lot of so-called boxing fans pretend to know Tyson was just a bully or a bum and they say he never beat a good fighter.

There might have been boxers with a better resume, a better record, but there is no one who could have been able to defeat a prime Tyson.


"as dave bites his tounge..to avoid going through this argument again with Tyson homers"

blockhead
06-25-2006, 10:37 PM
On that night Mike Tyson was the best fighter to ever step into the ring, nobody could have beat him; he had it all: power, speed, determination, heart, aggression, everything.

In my view it is sad to see a lot of so-called boxing fans pretend to know Tyson was just a bully or a bum and they say he never beat a good fighter.

There might have been boxers with a better resume, a better record, but there is no one who could have been able to defeat a prime Tyson.
what oh wait, ohhh this is another "prime" tyson was invinsible thread. i am going to go back to sleep now, this thread is retarded.

RockyMarcianofan00
06-25-2006, 10:53 PM
Prime Tyson was a wrecking machine-
he had it all speed, Power, defense, footwork, decent stamina

but he was impressive but he wasn't unbeatable.

Infact I do believe there are a few boxers from the past who could beat him....

The fact is no fighter in history was unbeatable...Even on their best night any fighter can be beat..See some fighters will beat other fighters, its styles...Its kind of like, Frazier beat Ali, Foreman beat Frazier, Ali beat Foreman...Even though Frazier beat Ali, Ali still beat Foreman its all Styles and what not (I'm not implying Ali was prime)...

I do however feel Foreman would beat Tyson, I do feel Tyson would rip Liston to pieces but this is just my opinion....

Closing thoughts is that no fighter is unbeatable....

Tyson > Liston

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c49/IrishInsomniac00/other%20boxing%20pictures/tysonberbick.jpg

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c49/IrishInsomniac00/other%20boxing%20pictures/ssg-umt-16f.jpg

Hard Boiled HK
06-25-2006, 11:38 PM
Prime Tyson was a wrecking machine-
he had it all speed, Power, defense, footwork, decent stamina

but he was impressive but he wasn't unbeatable.

Infact I do believe there are a few boxers from the past who could beat him....


Heh, I gotta ask you Rocky, who would win: a prime Tyson vs a prime Marciano? :)

Hard Boiled HK
06-25-2006, 11:48 PM
yeah tyson moves foward but we all know patterson wasnt as fast with defense then tyson and had power like tyson. plus tyson was a better counter puncher also and very elusive

True, Patterson wasn't as fast with defense as Tyson, but Tyson wasn't as fast on offense as Patterson. Patterson couldn't touch Liston, and even though Tyson had better defense, he would still had to block Liston's destructive punches. Besides, as stated before by someone else, Tyson would be scared of Liston and would step into the ring with fear before the bell rings.

Southpaw16
06-25-2006, 11:48 PM
dont worry whenever talkin about a PRIME tyson they always refer to his days outta his prime.they only do it with tyson which is weird :confused:

Don't try to make it sound like Tyson is being picked on, because his fans argue for his place in history, he gets the benefit of assumptions that no other boxer in history gets.

The two main arguments that his fans use for his place in history:

-he was past his prime before age 25.

-none of his losses count against his legacy because before they happened, he chose to fire his coach.

Name me one other boxer in history who is considered to be past his prime at age 25. Name me another boxer in history who people attribute all of their losses to a coaching change.

THOSE statements my friend, are what I call weird.

Hard Boiled HK
06-26-2006, 12:03 AM
Don't try to make it sound like Tyson is being picked on, because his fans argue for his place in history, he gets the benefit of assumptions that no other boxer in history gets.

The two main arguments that his fans use for his place in history:

-he was past his prime before age 25.

-none of his losses count against his legacy because before they happened, he chose to fire his coach.

Name me one other boxer in history who is considered to be past his prime at age 25. Name me another boxer in history who people attribute all of their losses to a coaching change.

THOSE statements my friend, are what I call weird.

Exactly. Who the hell would be past their prime before age 25?? The fact that he fired his coach -- well that's his problem.

dino
06-26-2006, 12:05 AM
prime riddick bowe lennox lewis both klitchkos all would beat mike tyson at any point in his career..height and a jab will always beat guys like tyson frazier tua

Hard Boiled HK
06-26-2006, 12:15 AM
Regarding Tyson being past his prime beyond 25: Holyfield is 4 years older than Tyson, and Lewis is 1 year older than Tyson. We all know what happened in those fights.

RockyMarcianofan00
06-26-2006, 02:37 AM
Heh, I gotta ask you Rocky, who would win: a prime Tyson vs a prime Marciano? :)
lol
This question I ask constantly in my head...This is one of those fights that could actually go either way

Tyson was very fast always like to overwhelm people with punches but Marciano was actually quite the same way minus the speed.. Difference between these two is that Tyson really wasn't "comfortable" going into later rounds where as Marciano could easily go 15 fresh rounds...Prime to Prime a very likely out come would be Tyson by TKO in an early round

But there's another side to this..Marciano had an Iron Chin and Toe-to-Toe with Tyson I believe Marciano could hold his own, Marciano also had a good defense..Many people tried to block Marciano's punches like Roland Lastarza, Lastarza ended up with a Broken arm and several blood clots in his arms which needed to be surgically removed...I can actually see Marciano make Tyson's arms big targets (not to say he'd necessarily break tyson's arms)..Also Marciano IMO was stronger in a clinch I could see this one going into later rounds and Marciano scoring a KO....

Tyson's overrated by some, but because of that overratedness people tend to underrate him, he's actually a much better fighter then alot of people give him credit for.....if that makes any sense to you...

micky_knox
06-26-2006, 09:12 AM
Tyson's overrated by some, but because of that overratedness people tend to underrate him, he's actually a much better fighter then alot of people give him credit for.....if that makes any sense to you...
thats damn true.............
tyson vs rock is a fight i often think about.......if i could make one fantasy fight happen this would be it........

my 2 fav fighters of all time.......one part of my think that tyson would rip rocky apart with his speed.......rocky was like a snail in comparision..........
however if any fighter in history could stand up to a prime mike it was rocky.....he was so damn tough.
if i have to make a pick i pick tyson.......buts its hard for me to say that.....

The Noose
06-26-2006, 10:57 AM
prime riddick bowe lennox lewis both klitchkos all would beat mike tyson at any point in his career..height and a jab will always beat guys like tyson frazier tua

Tyson beat alot of tall rangey fighters. Bowe would have given him alot of trouble, i dont know who would win.
Lewis had a good chance of beating a young Tyson, but his chin would fail him IMO.

And the Klitchkos i think would just be names on Tysons record.

micky_knox
06-26-2006, 11:22 AM
Originally Posted by dino
prime riddick bowe lennox lewis both klitchkos all would beat mike tyson at any point in his career..height and a jab will always beat guys like tyson frazier tua


lol

bowe maybe

but lewis and the klitchos hahahah no chance

K-DOGG
06-26-2006, 11:52 AM
Riddick Bowe had one of the worst defenses I've ever seen. If Pierre Coetzer and Evander Holyfield hit him with everything in the book, Tyson..well...think about it.

Bowe prided himself on inside fighting, which means he'd be in Tyson's range. Add that fact to his tendency to eat punches rather than avoid them and what you've got is a short night for "Big Daddy".

Tyson would KHTFO within 4 rounds.

marvdave
06-26-2006, 12:04 PM
Riddick Bowe had one of the worst defenses I've ever seen. If Pierre Coetzer and Evander Holyfield hit him with everything in the book, Tyson..well...think about it.

Bowe prided himself on inside fighting, which means he'd be in Tyson's range. Add that fact to his tendency to eat punches rather than avoid them and what you've got is a short night for "Big Daddy".

Tyson would KHTFO within 4 rounds.

"Fat Daddy" had the physical tools to beat Tyson. Height,reach, jab and a nice right. What he lacked was dedication and the desire to fight.

Tyson would probably have Bowe running to the buffet line inside of 6 rounds.

Lewis beats Tyson anytime.

micky_knox
06-26-2006, 12:08 PM
"Fat Daddy" had the physical tools to beat Tyson. Height,reach, jab and a nice right. What he lacked was dedication and the desire to fight.

Tyson would probably have Bowe running to the buffet line inside of 6 rounds.

Lewis beats Tyson anytime.
lewis and his glass jaw would have been smashed to bits within 6-7 rounds against prime tyson........
no way could lennox have handled mike.............
look what briggs did to lewis for a couple of rounds........and tyson was much better than briggs.........

K-DOGG
06-26-2006, 12:11 PM
lewis and his glass jaw would have been smashed to bits within 6-7 rounds against prime tyson........
no way could lennox have handled mike.............
look what briggs did to lewis for a couple of rounds........and tyson was much better than briggs.........

Lewis with Pepe Correa loses to Tyson as you describe; but Lewis under Steward beat Mike. From what I understand Lewis and Tyson sparred when Lennox was an amateur and Tyson was either an early pro or amateur himself and Lennox held his own and gave Mike trouble as well.

Lewis and his glass jaw went toe to toe with Ray Mercer for 10 tough rounds where Lennox had to suck it up and did. The fight, IMO, could have been scored either way; but I knew watching that fight that Lennox had that innate toughness inside that it takes to be a champion.

Lewis hit his prime later due to his style; and did so under Steward. That Lewis beats Mike every time, IMO.

micky_knox
06-26-2006, 12:22 PM
Lewis with Pepe Correa loses to Tyson as you describe; but Lewis under Steward beat Mike. From what I understand Lewis and Tyson sparred when Lennox was an amateur and Tyson was either an early pro or amateur himself and Lennox held his own and gave Mike trouble as well.

Lewis and his glass jaw went toe to toe with Ray Mercer for 10 tough rounds where Lennox had to suck it up and did. The fight, IMO, could have been scored either way; but I knew watching that fight that Lennox had that innate toughness inside that it takes to be a champion.

Lewis hit his prime later due to his style; and did so under Steward. That Lewis beats Mike every time, IMO.

you entitled to your opinion and i respect it
but i still disagree.........prime lewis vs prime tyson would be tyson for me.........
i heard when they sparred they were about 17........i think mike gave lewis a bloody nose.......but that means nothing........
i kinda like lennox.........but i dont think he would have been able to cope with the presure........i know he got suckerd by mcall and raham so i wont hold that against him as a boxer but it does proove his chin was suspect........thats a big advantage for tyson

K-DOGG
06-26-2006, 12:25 PM
you entitled to your opinion and i respect it
but i still disagree.........prime lewis vs prime tyson would be tyson for me.........
i heard when they sparred they were about 17........i think mike gave lewis a bloody nose.......but that means nothing........
i kinda like lennox.........but i dont think he would have been able to cope with the presure........i know he got suckerd by mcall and raham so i wont hold that against him as a boxer but it does proove his chin was suspect........thats a big advantage for tyson

fair enough. Too bad we'll never know though. Style-wise, had Mike not gone to prison, I think they would have complimented each other very nicely. Maybe not Ali-Frazier nicely; but comparable, IMO. They would have made for an exciting fight me thinks.

marvdave
06-26-2006, 12:25 PM
lewis and his glass jaw would have been smashed to bits within 6-7 rounds against prime tyson........
no way could lennox have handled mike.............
look what briggs did to lewis for a couple of rounds........and tyson was much better than briggs.........

you using "boxing math" and that doesn't work. You can't say this guy beat that guy, so the other can beat the third guy. It is styles that make the fights...as cliche and tired as that sounds, it's the truth. I get tired of the glass jaw thing for Lewis as well. His chin won't be mistaken for Hagler's thats for sure. But he has taken big shots from big punchers. His downfall has been his training for some fights. Tyson wouldn't be able to find Lewis to land his power shots. Lewis' tremendous size advantage with the reach would be hard for Mike to deal with anytime. Lewis hit his stide later in his career and would have always been able to keep Tyson away and do a number on him..imo

Using Boxing Math, I guess Tony Tucker and Quick Tillis would be crack your top ten :D

micky_knox
06-26-2006, 12:35 PM
you using "boxing math" and that doesn't work. You can't say this guy beat that guy, so the other can beat the third guy. It is styles that make the fights...as cliche and tired as that sounds, it's the truth. I get tired of the glass jaw thing for Lewis as well. His chin won't be mistaken for Hagler's thats for sure. But he has taken big shots from big punchers. His downfall has been his training for some fights. Tyson wouldn't be able to find Lewis to land his power shots. Lewis' tremendous size advantage with the reach would be hard for Mike to deal with anytime. Lewis hit his stide later in his career and would have always been able to keep Tyson away and do a number on him..imo

Using Boxing Math, I guess Tony Tucker and Quick Tillis would be crack your top ten :D
whats all this about math? i was using briggs a a example of how lennox could get into problems when presured .......infact if i remember correctly(ill have to check it out ..) lewis ran from tyson for the first round of thier fight too........i dont blame him......that was a smart move....because he knew that while tyson had some energy he could easily have gotten hurt

i think tyson was better than lewis........if you dont agree thats fine.......its just a matter of opinions :)
oh and 1 last thing
like you said when lewis hit his prime he was getting old........tyson would have run him ragged...lennoxs old legs would have given up long before the final round if it got that far.

micky_knox
06-26-2006, 12:36 PM
fair enough. Too bad we'll never know though. Style-wise, had Mike not gone to prison, I think they would have complimented each other very nicely. Maybe not Ali-Frazier nicely; but comparable, IMO. They would have made for an exciting fight me thinks.
yea

if tyson hadnt gone to jail it would have been brilliant.........shame .......those could have been the best fights he had

Dirt E Gomez
06-26-2006, 12:36 PM
Styles often makes fight. A prime Tyson will have a hard time beating any version of Foreman. Certain fighters would always lose to other fighters barring a lucky shot or an act of god.

Every fighter could be beaten by another fighter, just the way it works.

micky_knox
06-26-2006, 12:41 PM
Styles often makes fight. A prime Tyson will have a hard time beating any version of Foreman. Certain fighters would always lose to other fighters barring a lucky shot or an act of god.

Every fighter could be beaten by another fighter, just the way it works.
true dat.....

marvdave
06-26-2006, 12:44 PM
whats all this about math? i was using briggs a a example of how lennox could get into problems when presured .......infact if i remember correctly(ill have to check it out ..) lewis ran from tyson for the first round of thier fight too........i dont blame him......that was a smart move....because he knew that while tyson had some energy he could easily have gotten hurt

i think tyson was better than lewis........if you dont agree thats fine.......its just a matter of opinions :)
oh and 1 last thing
like you said when lewis hit his prime he was getting old........tyson would have run him ragged...lennoxs old legs would have given up long before the final round if it got that far.

Tyson was never known for his stamina. He was great as long as they didn't fight back. I think you have it backwards on who gets worn down. :D

I understand what your saying but will agree to disagree..It's nice to debate with someone clearheaded in regards to Tyson. Thanks for not threatening to beat me up. ;)

micky_knox
06-26-2006, 12:46 PM
Tyson was never known for his stamina. He was great as long as they didn't fight back. I think you have it backwards on who gets worn down. :D

I understand what your saying but will agree to disagree..It's nice to debate with someone clearheaded in regards to Tyson. Thanks for not threatening to beat me up. ;)
i wouldnt want to beat you or anybody up :)

i just like talking boxing........if we didnt disagree it would be boring
i will also admit to being slighty tyson biased.......but i do try and be fair in what i say........lennox was a fine champion as was mike....

Yaman
06-26-2006, 01:01 PM
Lenox Lewis did have all the tools to beat Mike Tyson(Thats why i dont consider him a real warrior, he was big and blessed cause of that) and i think that he could've beaten him in a UD if he used the same tactic as he did with bald washed up 233 Tyson. But i would definitely favor prime Tyson for a ko. Tyson stumbled Lewis with a lef ****ing jab in the 1st round. His left hook was perfect in his prime and long enough to reach Lewis' head. Lewis could get ko'd, but in a UD i would favor him.

Muhammad Ali from 67 may have beaten him. James Tillis used the same style agianst 19 year old Mike and was very effective. Ali was way more skilled than Tillis in nearly every departement. SO he would've fought the distance for sure with Tyson and i wouldn't be surprised if he outboxed him. I just dont know, i cant tell.

Prime George Foreman would be the biggest challenge for Tyson. The first mistake people make is that Tyson would swarm into Foreman..that he was a typical swarmer like Frazier(Who got his ass handed to him when he was past it) thats not true. Tyson may have tried to box this monster untill he could ko him in the later rounds. But it would most likely be all Foreman on the inside because of his freakish strenght on the inside. He would push Tyson back and keep chopping on him. Ofcource Foreman was a horrible ****ty puncher so i would give Tyson a bigger chance to win in a slugfest. Lyle almost did it.

Evander Holyfield, Sonny Liston and maybe Joe Frazier could have beaten him. Althought they weren't bigger than Tyson and Tyson ate smaller opponents for breakfast...so i dont mention them as the fighters above. I wouldnt know. But i dont think fighters like Rocky Marciano or Joe Louis wouldn't have stood a chance against Iron Mike. Size is a big thing.

Yaman
06-26-2006, 01:56 PM
I forgot to add Larry Holmes. I think he had as big a chance as Muhammad Ali. Although he wasn't really that strong(not as Ali) in fact, Tyson pushed him back in their fight. So the clinches would be Tyson's game, if Larry Holmes kept him at bay with his brilliant left jab, he would definitely outjab Mike. Distance would go to Holmes. Tyson would have to go inside and attack the body. Theres a small chance he would ko him, but he punched hard enough to ko Holmes. So UD for Holmes if so.

The Noose
06-26-2006, 02:00 PM
I forgot to add Larry Holmes. I think he had as big a chance as Muhammad Ali. Although he wasn't really that strong(not as Ali) in fact, Tyson pushed him back in their fight. So the clinches would be Tyson's game, if Larry Holmes kept him at bay with his brilliant left jab, he would definitely outjab Mike. Distance would go to Holmes. Tyson would have to go inside and attack the body. Theres a small chance he would ko him, but he punched hard enough to ko Holmes. So UD for Holmes if so.

I agree. He caught Tyson with his jab in the last round of their fight.
Maybe at Larry's best he would have landed it from round 1, and frustrated the hell outa Tyson.

RockyMarcianofan00
06-26-2006, 05:53 PM
Prime Holmes v Prime Tyson...

Holmes would give Tyson alot of trouble, and Tyson would get frustrated......If Holmes could keep that going for maybe 9 rounds he could KO a tired Tyson (Maybe) or get a UD in 12 but

what are the chances more likely Tyson would cut the ring off get him a corner and there goes his footwork...from there it would just be a matter of time....

Hard Boiled HK
06-26-2006, 05:53 PM
You know Yaman, instead of giving me bad karma along with an insulting comment, why don't you just argue right here in the thread?

According to you, Tyson aged faster than Holyfield. Even IF that's true, Holyfield's 4 year older in age would have offset that. Holyfield was not in his prime when he fought Tyson and you know it.

Piggu
06-26-2006, 05:55 PM
Tyson would have smashed Liston in 1 round. Gave Ali a boxing lesson, and forced the ref to the stop the fight when he's pulling off 8 punch combos on Big George.


No one beats a Pime "Iron" Mike Tyson.
:no: You've lost all credibility.

Southpaw Stinger
06-26-2006, 06:00 PM
You've lost all credibility.

Indeed he has. Sad thing dat.

Brassangel
06-26-2006, 06:42 PM
I wouldn't even say that Tyson was at his absolute best against Berbick. I tend to take Mike Tyson in pieces. For example:

Against Tillis, he spent the majority of the match headhunting. Tillis was able to see Tyson's loaded power shots coming, and he stayed away for the majority of the fight. Mike got frustrated, and while he still won, he seemed immature as a fighter. The following fight against Mitch Green showed us something different, however. While Green had fast hands, and also tried to stay away from Mike by using the jab, it was clear that Mike spent some time training for better ways to beat tall, agile opponents. He threw most of his punches to the body, at least for the first half of the fight, and upped his work rate from previous bouts. This was proof that he could learn and adapt to the adversity. More people assume Mike got frustrated than was actually the case.

Against Ruddock (I and II), Mike was up against an opponent who was 6'3" and 230 pounds, with an 80+" reach. This was supposed to be the textbook fighter for defeating Mike Tyson. Buster Douglas did it, and several fighters of this make gave Tyson trouble. Add to that the fact that Ruddock fights back, which is supposed to be double the frustration for Mike, and Razor was probably better than Douglas. Not to mention, Razor hit hard and knew that Mike Tyson was no longer invincible. We see a different Mike Tyson here, who has matured a little bit and shows signs of being seasoned. He attacks the body early on, taking a lot of zip away from Ruddock, and then gets him in a world of trouble by the 7th round. In the second meeting, it's much of the same only this time, both fighters show tremendous heart with a pinch of stamina and it goes the distance. Here, we saw a Mike Tyson who had heart, stamina, and strategy against an opponent who had nearly every advantage over him.

Against Holyfield, he only had a few fights against mediocre opposition, totalling no more than 10 rounds, after a three year layoff, before stepping into the ring against a seasoned champion. While Holyfield may have been beyond his prime, he was in phenomenal shape mentally, and physically for this bout. (Note that, while this situation is similar to Ali vs. Frazier, everybody will jump to Ali's defense about his layoff, even though he was primered with far better competition to prepare for his bout with Frazier than Tyson was with Holyfield).

Again, we see Tyson spend too much time headhunting, while Holyfield lands sharp, accurate punches, and pushes Tyson backwards for most of the fight. Suddenly, in the 5th round, Tyson actually decides to throw some punches to the body which opens up Holyfield a bit. He then lands an uppercut beautifully off of a combo to the midsection that staggers Evander. Tyson started to build momentum until the incidental headbutt of doom opened a cutt over his eye in the 6th, and things just went downhill from there.

This wasn't the end, however. We saw a glimpse of adaptability once again during their second fight. Tyson started slower this time, clinching Holyfield, and pushing him backwards instead. In the third round, Tyson attacks the body once more and fires off combos, instead of single shots, and actually gets Evander in a little trouble. He of course, throws it away by biting his opponent, thus writing the most rediculous incident in boxing's history. What this shows, however, was he was able to take what worked from the first fight, change what was beating him (pushing forwards instead of falling back), to create an advantageous situation. Many people don't see this, but it's evident.

These scenarios show that Mike Tyson could be patient, could score points without having to expend power, could attack the body to create opportunity, and could learn from mistakes. Most people have presupposed the fallacies that he was easily frustrated, and therefore, the same plan could beat him every time. Had all of the above mentioned pieces come together more often, or had he not made bad choices which sent him to prison, then he very well could have been close to unbeatable. In fact, he likely would have only suffered 1 or 2 losses in his career, and he'd be ranked in the top 3 or 4 all-time.

Yaman
06-26-2006, 06:57 PM
You know Yaman, instead of giving me bad karma along with an insulting comment, why don't you just argue right here in the thread?

According to you, Tyson aged faster than Holyfield. Even IF that's true, Holyfield's 4 year older in age would have offset that. Holyfield was not in his prime when he fought Tyson and you know it.


You're ignorant. Age doesn't have ANYTHING to do with being past prime. Tyson was a swarmer(technically) wich means he tried to smother opponents, wich means he had to take a punch himself. Frazier, Marciano, Dempsey were already past their prime in their early 30s, late 20s. Because of their styles. Do you understand this?

Evander Holyfield was a boxer with a style that could go on for a long time. Ring Savy, adapting ability..etc. Holyfield was barely past his prime when he fought Tyson. In fact, i dont think he was at all. The only thing i can conclude out of that is his reflexes, or hand speed..oh wait, he showed he still had his handspeed when he fought Tyson. His reflexes and quickness were not a problem for Holyfield. Like i said, his experience helped him. Wallcott never looked as good when he got older, same as Lennox Lewis.

Do you understand this? You sound like you're 13 or something. Everybody knows that a fighters age doesnt have anything to do with being peaked, or past prime. Tyson peaked at 20, does that mean a skinny green Cassius Clay could've beaten Liston? Swarmers are past it at an early age. **** like that.

SABBATH
06-26-2006, 07:18 PM
Holyfield was barely past his prime when he fought Tyson. In fact, i dont think he was at all. The NSAC wouldn't even sanction the fight because of how bad Holyfield had looked in his previous fights. Holyfield had to get examined by the Mayo clinic and get a clean bill of health before Nevada would even grant him a boxing licence. He'd lost 2 of his last 4 fights 3 of his last 7 and hadn't scored a KO win in 5 years and that came against last minute substitute Bert "crackhead" Cooper. Holyfield looked so bad in his previous fights that he opened as an 18-1 betting underdog when the fight was announced.

How many heavyweight champions in their prime were refused a boxing licence because of how bad they looked in previous fights?

Yaman
06-26-2006, 07:25 PM
The NSAC wouldn't even sanction the fight because of how bad Holyfield had looked in his previous fights. Holyfield had to get examined by the Mayo clinic and get a clean bill of health before Nevada would even grant him a boxing licence. He'd lost 2 of his last 4 fights 3 of his last 7 and hadn't scored a KO win in 5 years and that came against last minute substitute Bert "crackhead" Cooper. Holyfield looked so bad in his previous fights that he opened as an 18-1 betting underdog when the fight was announced.

How many heavyweight champions in their prime were refused a boxing licence because of how bad they looked in previous fights?

Again with the nice Boxrec research. I suggest you watch him fight Tyson before you open your mouth about how the media was crying about his heartproblems(that Holyfield always denied). I was explaining how his boxing skills and physical health didnt look any diffirent, and you're telling me he was a 18-1 underdog. So what? Did he not look fresh in the 11th round?(and all the rounds before that. Come on, its not like he could rest against Mike Tyson) None of those so called health problems were effecting Holyfield in those fights. Thats why i dont consider him past his prime, because i dont read articles or listen to the media when i say this.

But thats offtopic. Im not gonna discuss that in here.

Hard Boiled HK
06-26-2006, 08:31 PM
You're ignorant. Age doesn't have ANYTHING to do with being past prime. Tyson was a swarmer(technically) wich means he tried to smother opponents, wich means he had to take a punch himself. Frazier, Marciano, Dempsey were already past their prime in their early 30s, late 20s. Because of their styles. Do you understand this?

Evander Holyfield was a boxer with a style that could go on for a long time. Ring Savy, adapting ability..etc. Holyfield was barely past his prime when he fought Tyson. In fact, i dont think he was at all. The only thing i can conclude out of that is his reflexes, or hand speed..oh wait, he showed he still had his handspeed when he fought Tyson. His reflexes and quickness were not a problem for Holyfield. Like i said, his experience helped him. Wallcott never looked as good when he got older, same as Lennox Lewis.

Do you understand this? You sound like you're 13 or something. Everybody knows that a fighters age doesnt have anything to do with being peaked, or past prime. Tyson peaked at 20, does that mean a skinny green Cassius Clay could've beaten Liston? Swarmers are past it at an early age. **** like that.

I understand what you are saying, but can you honestly say Holyfield's handspeed when he fought Tyson was just as fast as he had been a couple of years earlier?

Your statement "age doesn't have ANYTHING to do with being past prime" is wrong. No boxer can say they are at their prime at, say, 35 years old, and no boxer can say they are beyond their prime at 22 years old. I'm not ignorant, and I understand what you are saying about aging faster with the swarmer style, but as I said age DOES limit your prime. Of course, different style of boxing will dictate your RANGE of prime years, with Tyson having a smaller range than Holyfield. Do you agree?

Edit: Tyson still had it in him when he was released, but he just didn't have the heart to win.

SABBATH
06-26-2006, 08:54 PM
I suggest you watch him fight Tyson before you open your mouth
I suggest you watch Holyfield against Czyz (couldn't visibly hurt a blown up middleweight), Mercer (life and death), Bowe (KO'd by) and Moorer (flat and unimpressive) etc... which were the fights leading up to the Tyson fight. Accept that Holyfield was simply an all around better fighter than Tyson and you'll have a much easier time dealing with your hero getting his ass handed to him twice by Holyfield who won 12 of the 14 rounds he fought against Tyson.

The Noose
06-26-2006, 09:36 PM
Edit: Tyson still had it in him when he was released, but he just didn't have the heart to win.

I believe he didnt even have the technical ability which made him such an effective fighter.
Even before he went to prison, he wasnt great, but still showed he had the instincts to set up his attacks (the Ruddock fights for example).
He was undiciplined, but still threw excellent combinations.

After prison, its like he was trying to remember wat to do. Against Holyfield, he just didnt have a clue.
IMO he was terrible that night and every night after.

BAREKNUCKLES
06-26-2006, 11:19 PM
Mike Tyson, who was explosive and fun to watch, had an achilles heal. That would be a tall fighter, with excellent footwork and scientific boxing skills.

Mike had trouble with a whole slew of fighters like this. James Quick Tillis, Mitch Blood Green, Buster Douglas, and Evander Holyfield.


All of these guys had excellent boxing skills and they also had good chins, and they all were fairly tall except for Holyfield, who still was a good deal taller than Mike. If Tillis would have been more inspired, he could have beaten Mike. Mitch Green was a club/street fighter who gave Mike all kinds of trouble, and that was in his "prime."

I'm not trying to take away from Mike's greatness in the ring, because he will go down as one of boxing's most exciting fighters ever.

It's just that Mike fought a bunch of tomato cans in the 80's. I mean, his fight record before Berbick looked worse than Louis's "bum of the month" club.

Even after he took the title, he fought Holmes, who was washed up, a puny Michael Spinx, Carl Williams, on and on. The division was crap at that time.

Mike dodged Holyfield, then was beaten by Douglas, then prison. His camp finally thought Evander was an old man, and to their surprise, he wasn't.

By this time, Mike was no longer the fighter he was in the 80's.

I would have loved to have seen Mike fight Evander before he fought Douglas. I think he would have taken Evander seriously, and it would have been a war for a few rounds. However, he fought Douglas, didn't train, and well, the rest is history.


So, in summary, Mike Tyson could have been beaten on his very best day by the right fighter.

I have always thought that Ali would have ran Mike into circles, and Mike more than likely would have given up just like Liston.

Mike was great at his game, which was intimidation and swarming attacks. However, there were many fighters in history who would not have been frightened of Mike.

Tyson-Marciano would have been a great one to watch.

Hard Boiled HK
06-26-2006, 11:46 PM
In terms of striking fear into an opponent, nothing can match Tyson's ability. Liston doesn't even come close.

micky_knox
06-27-2006, 02:44 AM
I suggest you watch Holyfield against Czyz (couldn't visibly hurt a blown up middleweight), Mercer (life and death), Bowe (KO'd by) and Moorer (flat and unimpressive) etc... which were the fights leading up to the Tyson fight. Accept that Holyfield was simply an all around better fighter than Tyson and you'll have a much easier time dealing with your hero getting his ass handed to him twice by Holyfield who won 12 of the 14 rounds he fought against Tyson.
tyson was washed up when he fought holy

Verstyle
06-27-2006, 03:14 AM
Mike Tyson, who was explosive and fun to watch, had an achilles heal. That would be a tall fighter, with excellent footwork and scientific boxing skills.

Mike had trouble with a whole slew of fighters like this. James Quick Tillis, Mitch Blood Green, Buster Douglas, and Evander Holyfield.


All of these guys had excellent boxing skills and they also had good chins, and they all were fairly tall except for Holyfield, who still was a good deal taller than Mike. If Tillis would have been more inspired, he could have beaten Mike. Mitch Green was a club/street fighter who gave Mike all kinds of trouble, and that was in his "prime."

I'm not trying to take away from Mike's greatness in the ring, because he will go down as one of boxing's most exciting fighters ever.

It's just that Mike fought a bunch of tomato cans in the 80's. I mean, his fight record before Berbick looked worse than Louis's "bum of the month" club.

Even after he took the title, he fought Holmes, who was washed up, a puny Michael Spinx, Carl Williams, on and on. The division was crap at that time.

Mike dodged Holyfield, then was beaten by Douglas, then prison. His camp finally thought Evander was an old man, and to their surprise, he wasn't.

By this time, Mike was no longer the fighter he was in the 80's.

I would have loved to have seen Mike fight Evander before he fought Douglas. I think he would have taken Evander seriously, and it would have been a war for a few rounds. However, he fought Douglas, didn't train, and well, the rest is history.


So, in summary, Mike Tyson could have been beaten on his very best day by the right fighter.

I have always thought that Ali would have ran Mike into circles, and Mike more than likely would have given up just like Liston.

Mike was great at his game, which was intimidation and swarming attacks. However, there were many fighters in history who would not have been frightened of Mike.

Tyson-Marciano would have been a great one to watch.
u sir obviously didnt watch the fight. and ne 1 that seen that fight can back me up on the 1

Verstyle
06-27-2006, 03:20 AM
Mike Tyson, who was explosive and fun to watch, had an achilles heal. That would be a tall fighter, with excellent footwork and scientific boxing skills.

Mike had trouble with a whole slew of fighters like this. James Quick Tillis, Mitch Blood Green, Buster Douglas, and Evander Holyfield.


All of these guys had excellent boxing skills and they also had good chins, and they all were fairly tall except for Holyfield, who still was a good deal taller than Mike. If Tillis would have been more inspired, he could have beaten Mike. Mitch Green was a club/street fighter who gave Mike all kinds of trouble, and that was in his "prime."

I'm not trying to take away from Mike's greatness in the ring, because he will go down as one of boxing's most exciting fighters ever.

It's just that Mike fought a bunch of tomato cans in the 80's. I mean, his fight record before Berbick looked worse than Louis's "bum of the month" club.

Even after he took the title, he fought Holmes, who was washed up, a puny Michael Spinx, Carl Williams, on and on. The division was crap at that time.

Mike dodged Holyfield, then was beaten by Douglas, then prison. His camp finally thought Evander was an old man, and to their surprise, he wasn't.

By this time, Mike was no longer the fighter he was in the 80's.

I would have loved to have seen Mike fight Evander before he fought Douglas. I think he would have taken Evander seriously, and it would have been a war for a few rounds. However, he fought Douglas, didn't train, and well, the rest is history.


So, in summary, Mike Tyson could have been beaten on his very best day by the right fighter.

I have always thought that Ali would have ran Mike into circles, and Mike more than likely would have given up just like Liston.

Mike was great at his game, which was intimidation and swarming attacks. However, there were many fighters in history who would not have been frightened of Mike.

Tyson-Marciano would have been a great one to watch.


he didnt dodge him they were gonna fight after the douglas fight :rolleyes: u sir dont know your facts

hellfire508
06-27-2006, 05:29 AM
Tyson was not unbeatable that night at all. There are plenty of heavyweights who have looked unbeatable against subpar opponents. Ali against Williams looked untouchable. Does that mean he couldn't be beaten? Of course not.

I would pick Ali, Foreman, Liston and Louis to take Tyson on that night.

jabsRstiff
06-27-2006, 08:36 AM
the Buster Douglas who schooled & pummelled Mike Tyson, on Feb 10, 1990......would beat the Mike Tyson who KO'd Trevor Berbick.
He'd have a little more trouble, but no version of Tyson could handle a 6'4", 231lb, un-itimidated man who was boxing like Buster was.

Yaman
06-27-2006, 08:50 AM
I suggest you watch Holyfield against Czyz (couldn't visibly hurt a blown up middleweight), Mercer (life and death), Bowe (KO'd by) and Moorer (flat and unimpressive) etc... which were the fights leading up to the Tyson fight. Accept that Holyfield was simply an all around better fighter than Tyson and you'll have a much easier time dealing with your hero getting his ass handed to him twice by Holyfield who won 12 of the 14 rounds he fought against Tyson.

Again, those fights have nothing to do with Holyfields fights against Tyson. Holyfield beating Tyson is known as the biggest comeback in boxing. Do you understand that? It was a comeback, so he wasn't past his prime. He looked bad in those fights, true(Dont have **** to do with it), but he came back looking great, this making it one of the best comeback in history. That right there destroys your little boxrec research. End of this discussion.

SABBATH
06-27-2006, 09:29 AM
Again, those fights have nothing to do with Holyfields fights against Tyson. Holyfield beating Tyson is known as the biggest comeback in boxing. Do you understand that? It was a comeback, so he wasn't past his prime. He looked bad in those fights, true(Dont have **** to do with it), but he came back looking great, this making it one of the best comeback in history. That right there destroys your little boxrec research. End of this discussion.You obviously never saw Holyfield against Tillis, Thomas, Rodrigues, Dokes, Douglas, Foreman or Bowe I. That Holyfield fought at a quicker pace, had better punching accuracy, threw more combinations, moved more and and still scored KO's.

The Holyfield that fought Tyson was slower, flat-footed didn't put many combinations together (unless Tyson was already hurt) and fought mainly in spurts. He beat Tyson because he was a better all around fighter who had developed his superior ring generalship by relishing the opportunity to fight every top heavyweight of his era, while not having to rely on intimidation combined with a front runner style.

Holyfield looked mediocre in his fights before he fought Tyson and afterwards with the exception of the Moorer rematch. Holyfield went back to mediocrity against Vaughan Bean, while losing a combined 5 straight fights to Lennox Lewis and John Ruiz. Other than Moorer II. Tyson is the ONLY guy that Holyfield KO'd in the last 13 years of his career!

Accept it. I know it hurts. Tyson got schooled by a 34 year old past his prime Holyfield.

As for Tyson dodging a younger Holyfield that's also fact. The fight was signed and set for November 1991 (I have the fight poster) before Tyson pulled out claiming he injured his rib doing sit-ups. It was later confirmed by Tyson's management that the rib injury didn't exist and that Tyson had backed out due to worry about his impending rape trial.

Yaman
06-27-2006, 09:40 AM
You obviously never saw Holyfield against Tillis, Thomas, Rodrigues,Dokes, Douglas, Foreman or Bowe I. That Holyfield fought at a quicker pace, had better punching accuracy, threw more combinations, moved more and and still scored KO's.

The Holyfield that fought Tyson was slower, flat-footed didn't put many combinations together (unless Tyson was already hurt) and fought mainly in spurts. He beat Tyson because he was a better all around fighter who had developed his superior ring generalship by relishing the opportunity to fight every top heavyweight of his era, while not having to rely on intimidation combined with a front runner style.

Holyfield looked mediocre in his fights before he fought Tyson and afterwards with the exception of the Moorer rematch went back to mediocrity against Vaughan Bean, while losing a combined 5 straight fights to Lennox Lewis and John Ruiz. Other than Moorer II, Tyson is the ONLY guy that Holyfield KO'd in the last 13 years of his career.

Accept it. I know it hurts. Tyson got schooled by a 34 year old past his prime Holyfield.

As for Tyson dodging a younger Holyfield that's also fact. The fight was signed and set for November 1991 (I have the fight poster) before Tyson pulled out claiming he injured his rib doing sit-ups. It was later confirmed by Tyson's management that the rib injury didn't exist and that Tyson had backed out due to worry about his impending rape trial.

I saw Holyfield fight Douglass, Bowe, Foreman and a few other times. He did not look flatfooted against Tyson, he was bouncing on his toes as usual, just not AS MUCH. Might i remember you that he gained weight and muscle..Punching accuracy? Again, watch this fight and look at the combos that land, you're seriously a joke if you dont think he still had accuracy and punching power. That last combo that stopped Tyson is all that needs to be said. As far as kos goes, he ko'd lesser fighters. I didn't see him ko Bowe or Foreman? Or ofcource another great fighter like Mercer? What makes you think he would've done that to a prime Lewis? Haha! Since when has Holyfield become a knockout artist? You crack me up. And for your information, he also ko'd Moorer after Tyson who he lost to earlier. Im gonna end this conversation. I hope you understood everything. Holyfield was nowhere near to washed up, he changed his style, wich means he wasn't even past his prime imo. Just face it. Whatever boxrec research you're gonna post, im not responding to it annymore, its offtopic and pointless because i already broke it down.

Yaman
06-27-2006, 09:43 AM
the Buster Douglas who schooled & pummelled Mike Tyson, on Feb 10, 1990......would beat the Mike Tyson who KO'd Trevor Berbick.
He'd have a little more trouble, but no version of Tyson could handle a 6'4", 231lb, un-itimidated man who was boxing like Buster was.


Maybe he would have beaten him. But if they fought 3 times, Tyson would have won atleast twice. Douglass had a porcelain chin. It was really that bad. There's no way he could have taken more than 1 powerfull punch to the chin.

leff
06-27-2006, 10:10 AM
porcelain chin?

and mike couldnt knock him out, now what does that say about mike?

Yaman
06-27-2006, 10:40 AM
Mike only hit him flush once?

The Noose
06-27-2006, 10:56 AM
IMO, the idea that Tyson NEEDED to intimidate fighters isnt true.

The intimidation was there because of Tyson style, fighters were scared of him becuase he was that good.
Maybe he started to rely on this intimidation later in his career, wen he started staring fighters down.

But the young focused and vicious Tyson was actually incredibly scared himself before fights. (We have all seen the footage of him crying with Teddy Atlas before an amatuer fight).

The fear of losing made him fight brilliantly, as he became champion and lost his disipline he started to rely more on his self proclaimed baddest man on the planet bull****.

He believed his own hype and forgot the boxing skills that gave him his reputation.

micky_knox
06-27-2006, 11:40 AM
IMO, the idea that Tyson NEEDED to intimidate fighters isnt true.

The intimidation was there because of Tyson style, fighters were scared of him becuase he was that good.
Maybe he started to rely on this intimidation later in his career, wen he started staring fighters down.

But the young focused and vicious Tyson was actually incredibly scared himself before fights. (We have all seen the footage of him crying with Teddy Atlas before an amatuer fight).

The fear of losing made him fight brilliantly, as he became champion and lost his disipline he started to rely more on his self proclaimed baddest man on the planet bull****.

He believed his own hype and forgot the boxing skills that gave him his reputation.
yes.

people seem to forget that these guys were scared of tyson for a reason.......
:boxing:

K-DOGG
06-27-2006, 11:48 AM
A brief synopsis on Holyfield vs Tyson: both were past their primes. Tyson, as I've said before, would have been on the skids at age 30 even if he hadn't gone to prison; he was that type of fighter with a short shelf life. Dempsey, Marciano, and Frazier...all similar to Mike in style: aggressive fighters who attacked out of a crouch, were all on the downside by their late 20's.

Dempsey lost to Tunney and retired at age 32...he'd also lost the title the year before and was losing to Sharkey before his left to the groin, left to the chin combo knocked out the Gob.

Marciano retired at age 31 after defeating Moore, complaining of severe back pain. True, he was in a feud with Weil; but, ultimately Rocky knew he was at the end of his best and didn't want to shame the family name with a loss.

Frazier was 29 years old when Foreman bounced him out of his belt in Jamaica. True, the first Ali fight took a lot out of Joe; but ultimately, it was his style that did him in. Short aggressors never last long in the heavyweight division and rarely anywhere else. Joe never won another significant bout after losing to George, Quarry II not withstanding.

Mike, in addition to being a short-span fighter, was inactive and incarcerated for nearly four years and, honestly, didn't have the love for the game when he got out as he did when he went in...it was about money in career two. And, of course there was rust; but his mentality was the key in addition to him being past his prime.

However, when Mike went away in 1991, he carried that mystque with him, which grew in the public's mindset while he was incarcerated and was embellished by fantasies of how prison life would make him EVEN MORE OF A BADASS by the time he was released. Myths and legends grow more embellished over time, don't you know.

What about Evander? Holy's heart carried him through on many occasions. He was consisered shot by the time he fought Tyson due to his losses to Moorer and kayo by Bowe and unimpressive win over Czyz...which is why, I believe, Don King signed the match with him. He was a name; but appeared to have no substance left. Boy, were we wrong.

In a nutshell: we grossly overestimated Tyson and horribly underestimated Holyfield.

Brassangel
06-27-2006, 12:25 PM
Originally Posted by K-DOGG
In a nutshell: we grossly overestimated Tyson and horribly underestimated Holyfield.

Yeah, the idea that he (Tyson) would become tougher after a 4-year layoff was rediculous. That would have been like assuming that Ali would have been better after his layoff as well. Holyfield knew that this was a great opportunity against a slightly ring-rusty, and heart-lacking opponent, and he took advantage of it. Tyson underestimated Holyfield as well. What people seem to forget is how he lost 4 pounds for their second fight, and actually had Holyfield in trouble before the bite heard round the world ended the match in a DQ, and basically ended Tyson's second career run.

Also, to the random people who assume that a tall, heavy fighter was always going to pose a problem for Tyson, read my post on page 7 or 8 of this thread. He proved that he had the ability to learn, adapt, and deal with large fighters. Ruddock is a good example, as being better than nearly all of the other "tall" guys Tyson faced (short of Lewis), and he showed heart, adaptability, and body work in those fights.

Even so, he was not unbeatable in the 80's. In a perfect sceneario, had he not gone to prison, he likely would have lost 1-2 fights in the mid 1990's and called it quits. He certainly would have looked better than he does today, however.

RockyMarcianofan00
06-27-2006, 03:57 PM
Mo matter Prime or not Tyson would always have trouble against a tall mover/boxer and/or counterpuncher....

IMO- Holyfeild was perfect to beat Tyson, he was tall, fast, hit pretty hard, and was also a brilliant counter puncher.......

but I do believe Prime Mike Tyson would actually have a decent chance at beating Holyfeild...But that fact remains that Holyfeild is a perfect person to beat "Iron" Mike just because of styles..........

hemichromis
06-27-2006, 04:31 PM
Tyson would have smashed Liston in 1 round. Gave Ali a boxing lesson, and forced the ref to the stop the fight when he's pulling off 8 punch combos on Big George.


No one beats a Pime "Iron" Mike Tyson.

i am betting you have never seen a prime foreman ali or liston. in fact i doubt you have even seen ali the movie

tyson is a very dangerous man but foreman and ali would probably take him out a prime liston might too infact i believe a 45 yearold foreman could beat tyson but this is mainly due to styles

Southpaw Stinger
06-27-2006, 04:33 PM
i am betting you have never seen a prime foreman ali or liston. in fact i doubt you have even seen ali the movie

tyson is a very dangerous man but foreman and ali would probably take him out a prime liston might too infact i believe a 45 yearold foreman could beat tyson but this is mainly due to styles

You know where it's at good man.

I think Tyson 77 is purely an Iron Mike fan and not a boxing fan.

Dempsey 1919
06-28-2006, 06:41 PM
Tyson isn't unbeatable. Ali, Liston, and Foreman would beat him. Joe Louis, Larry Holmes, and Joe Frazier would have a chance as well.

Piggu
06-28-2006, 06:45 PM
Tyson isn't unbeatable. Ali, Liston, and Foreman would beat him. Joe Louis, Larry Holmes, and Joe Frazier would have a chance as well.
No apparently Tyson would outbox Ali. :D
Tyson would have smashed Liston in 1 round. Gave Ali a boxing lesson, and forced the ref to the stop the fight when he's pulling off 8 punch combos on Big George.


No one beats a Pime "Iron" Mike Tyson.

Dempsey 1919
06-28-2006, 06:48 PM
No apparently Tyson would outbox Ali. :D

Haha, lol!

Mike Tyson77
06-29-2006, 11:21 PM
You know where it's at good man.

I think Tyson 77 is purely an Iron Mike fan and not a boxing fan.

I LOVE Boxing. I also love "Iron" Mike. He gave me this sport, I owe him a lot.



No one could beat a prime Jack Johnson either. I dont think Joe Louis could have been beaten either in his prime. Hey, these guys are my heros, they are all Superman to man to me.

micky_knox
06-30-2006, 04:05 AM
I LOVE Boxing. I also love "Iron" Mike. He gave me this sport, I owe him a lot.



No one could beat a prime Jack Johnson either. I dont think Joe Louis could have been beaten either in his prime. Hey, these guys are my heros, they are all Superman to man to me.
:) i like that post

SABBATH
06-30-2006, 06:03 AM
No one could beat a prime Jack Johnson either. I dont think Joe Louis could have been beaten either in his prime. Hey, these guys are my heros, they are all Superman to man to me. Except for the fact that they can't fly or deflect bullets. They're mere mortals who can all be defeated in a boxing ring on any given night...

Southpaw Stinger
06-30-2006, 08:24 AM
I LOVE Boxing. I also love "Iron" Mike. He gave me this sport, I owe him a lot.



No one could beat a prime Jack Johnson either. I dont think Joe Louis could have been beaten either in his prime. Hey, these guys are my heros, they are all Superman to man to me.

Then you obviously don't know very much. Johnson is extremely overated with a padded record. he lost a lot of fights also. boxing evolved a lot from his time and most heavyweight from the 70's onwards would school him. Tyson would KO him early as well.

micky_knox
06-30-2006, 01:31 PM
Then you obviously don't know very much. Johnson is extremely overated with a padded record. he lost a lot of fights also. boxing evolved a lot from his time and most heavyweight from the 70's onwards would school him. Tyson would KO him early as well.
to hard to say how good johnson really was........not enough video of him.....

Verstyle
06-30-2006, 01:41 PM
yeah even given night ne fighter could be beaten soooo yeah i said it :cool:

Southpaw Stinger
06-30-2006, 01:49 PM
to hard to say how good johnson really was........not enough video of him.....

Theres more footage of him than you think. I've seen quite a lot and wasn't impressed at all by it. Didn't beat many good guys and has losses and draws throughout his career so he didn't have an "invincible" stage like most greats.
He beat a tiny Tommy Burns who was like 6/7 inches shorter than him and a lot lighter. He also beat a very past his prime Jim Jeffries. Most of the rest of his career was against nobody's.

Dempsey 1919
06-30-2006, 06:44 PM
Then you obviously don't know very much. Johnson is extremely overated with a padded record. he lost a lot of fights also. boxing evolved a lot from his time and most heavyweight from the 70's onwards would school him. Tyson would KO him early as well.

Well, in that case Jack Dempsey is extremely overrated too, since he has a lot of losses and draws, plus he fought a lot of nobodies. He beat an old Willard and suckerpunched Sharkey.

Southpaw Stinger
06-30-2006, 07:32 PM
Well, in that case Jack Dempsey is extremely overrated too, since he has a lot of losses and draws, plus he fought a lot of nobodies. He beat an old Willard and suckerpunched Sharkey.

Yeah probably dempsey is overated. A lot of fighters are from that era.
But then again no one has ever said Dempsey was invincible or the greatest like some people have here about Johnson.

So Johnson is definatly more overated whichever way you look at it.

Mike Tyson77
06-30-2006, 08:08 PM
Then you obviously don't know very much. Johnson is extremely overated with a padded record. he lost a lot of fights also. boxing evolved a lot from his time and most heavyweight from the 70's onwards would school him. Tyson would KO him early as well.


Man, Jack Johnson became Heavyweight Champion in 1908. African Americans where treated like dirt in 1908. Then Jack Johnson became the baddest man on the planet. He had an 11 year unbeaten streak. He also beat all the top fighters of his time, he can do no more than that.

Dempsey 1919
06-30-2006, 08:10 PM
no one has ever said Dempsey was invincible or the greatest like some people have here about Johnson.

Oh really? You wanna bet? Most people I've heard of or come into contact with rank Dempsey above Johnson, so I would say Dempsey is more built up then Johnson.

Dempsey 1919
06-30-2006, 08:14 PM
Man, Jack Johnson became Heavyweight Champion in 1908. African Americans where treated like dirt in 1908. Then Jack Johnson became the baddest man on the planet. He had an 11 year unbeaten streak. He also beat all the top fighters of his time, he can do no more than that.

Hey, great post! I couldn't agree more. He was a bad man and whupped everybody. Good k for you. Jack Johnson is a legend!

Verstyle
06-30-2006, 08:17 PM
Hey, great post! I couldn't disagree any more. He was a bad man and got whupped by everybody. bad k for you. Jack Johnson is a legend!


shut up butterfly :cool:

Dempsey 1919
06-30-2006, 08:19 PM
shut up butterfly :cool:

Aaaaaand what was the point of this? :confused:

Verstyle
06-30-2006, 08:20 PM
Aaaaaand what was the point of this? :confused:

your stupid ass post that u made alkin bad about jack johnson :mad:

Dempsey 1919
06-30-2006, 08:25 PM
your stupid ass post that u made alkin bad about jack johnson :mad:

You edited my quote, genius. :rolleyes:

Mike Tyson77
06-30-2006, 08:25 PM
Hey, great post! I couldn't agree more. He was a bad man and whupped everybody. Good k for you. Jack Johnson is a legend!


Thanks. I just love Jack Johnson. I guess you know that Ali loved Jack Johnson to. :D

Verstyle
06-30-2006, 08:26 PM
I edited my quote, genius. :rolleyes:

i know u did


:rolleyes:

Dempsey 1919
06-30-2006, 08:27 PM
Thanks. I just love Jack Johnson. I guess you know that Ali loved Jack Johnson to. :D

Yeah, he sure did.

Jack Johnson, he's bad. I know I'm bad, but he was crazy!

Dempsey 1919
06-30-2006, 08:28 PM
i know u did


:rolleyes:

Again, can I ask what is the point of this?

Verstyle
06-30-2006, 08:29 PM
Again, can I ask what kind of points can I get from this?


none u aint gettin no more points :D

SABBATH
06-30-2006, 08:40 PM
Man, Jack Johnson became Heavyweight Champion in 1908. African Americans where treated like dirt in 1908. Then Jack Johnson became the baddest man on the planet. He had an 11 year unbeaten streak. He also beat all the top fighters of his time, he can do no more than that.Once Jack Johnson became champion he didn't fight the best available competition. Sam Langford, Sam McVey, Joe Jeanette etc...would have given Johnson tougher fights than the white hopes he feasted on. Johnson's excuse was that two black men fighting for the title would not make money but he he did defend against one black fighter, Battling Jim Johnson. Johnson was offered big money to fight Langford in Australia and Europe and turned down the offers, by saying he had already beaten him once (when Langford weighed 155 lbs).

Southpaw Stinger
07-01-2006, 05:51 AM
His only real significance in boxing history is that he was the first black champion. I've said it before but if Johnson was white we would never have heard of him today.
Ali, Liston, Foreman, Tyson, Frazier, Louis, Lewis, Holyfield - would all own his ass.

Mike Tyson77
07-01-2006, 01:10 PM
His only real significance in boxing history is that he was the first black champion. I've said it before but if Johnson was white we would never have heard of him today.
Ali, Liston, Foreman, Tyson, Frazier, Louis, Lewis, Holyfield - would all own his ass.


Jack Johnson had a defense second to none. And a counter punch that could knock your teeth out. He's a top three fighter any way you cut it. Even Bert Sugar says so, but Im sure we all know more than him. :rolleyes:

micky_knox
07-01-2006, 01:27 PM
Theres more footage of him than you think. I've seen quite a lot and wasn't impressed at all by it. Didn't beat many good guys and has losses and draws throughout his career so he didn't have an "invincible" stage like most greats.
He beat a tiny Tommy Burns who was like 6/7 inches shorter than him and a lot lighter. He also beat a very past his prime Jim Jeffries. Most of the rest of his career was against nobody's.
i have jack v's burns,ketchel,jeffies and flynn

if there is more do you know where i can get it from?

Southpaw Stinger
07-01-2006, 01:42 PM
You can get plenty of classical footage from different sites and collecters. There is also quite a lot of sparring footage of Johnson as well.

micky_knox
07-01-2006, 01:44 PM
You can get plenty of classical footage from different sites and collecters. There is also quite a lot of sparring footage of Johnson as well.
if you know the sites can you pm them to me please..... :boxing:

Southpaw Stinger
07-01-2006, 01:46 PM
I might have some footage I can send you, hang on a mo.

micky_knox
07-01-2006, 01:50 PM
awesome m8

u need my msn?

Hard Boiled HK
07-01-2006, 07:45 PM
Jack Johnson had a defense second to none. And a counter punch that could knock your teeth out. He's a top three fighter any way you cut it. Even Bert Sugar says so, but Im sure we all know more than him. :rolleyes:


Jack Johnson is a top three fighter? You gotta be kidding. Who are your top three?

Dempsey 1919
07-01-2006, 08:26 PM
His only real significance in boxing history is that he was the first black champion. I've said it before but if Johnson was white we would never have heard of him today.Ali, Liston, Foreman, Tyson, Frazier, Louis, Lewis, Holyfield - would all own his ass.

If Johnson was white he would still be known as a great champion. Being black doesn't take away what he did in the ring. :rolleyes:

And no way lewis and holyfield would beat him. They're too slow.

Verstyle
07-01-2006, 09:32 PM
If Johnson was white he wouldnt still be known as a great champion. Being black does take away what he did in the ring. :rolleyes:

And no way lewis and holyfield wouldn't beat him. They're too fast.


shutup butterfly u dont know what your talking about :cool:

Dempsey 1919
07-01-2006, 09:54 PM
shutup butterfly u dont know what your talking about :cool:

Lol, you're a riot! :D

Mike Tyson77
07-02-2006, 03:28 PM
Jack Johnson is a top three fighter? You gotta be kidding. Who are your top three?


He's #2 for me. Bert Sugar has him #3. The man had between like 79-100 wins, he did know how to box. And I agree with Butterfly, he would school Holyfield and Lewis.

The Noose
07-02-2006, 03:51 PM
He's #2 for me. Bert Sugar has him #3. The man had between like 79-100 wins, he did know how to box. And I agree with Butterfly, he would school Holyfield and Lewis.

based on wat?

Mike Tyson77
07-02-2006, 04:12 PM
based on wat?


Based on Jack Johnson kicking everyones ass. He was the greatest defensive Heavyweight Boxer of all time. If I was a bettin man, Id be bettin he'd whup them both. :boxing:

RockyMarcianofan00
07-02-2006, 06:17 PM
Jack Johnson is very overrated...the only reason you ever hear his name in boxing history more or less is because he was black...Besides being black and breaking the color barrier he didn't do anything....Maybe he threw his punches differently,maybe he was good with defense but many fighters have made inovations like this and have not been mentioned..Jack Johnson has one of the most padded records in history only fighting guys like a way over the hill Jefferies..

Jack Johnson is by no means a top 10 heavyweight, if he was white he would be almost like a Bob Fitzsimmons or something of that nature...Known but nobody considers him a top 10 of all time...

Johnson was a decent fighter who's legacy was so distorted by the color of his skin...He fought a few white guys who were not even that good and everybody thought he was some sort of super fighter...This is because Blacks back then were considered inferior so when a person who was thought to be inferior came up and beat all these "White Hopes" then they thought he was superman....This is shown especially with the Jefferies v Johnson fight....I can't believe that anybody would think an old heavy Jefferies would beat a man otherwise in his prime years it's rediculous...It just shows you how everybody thought Johnson was inferior....

IMO Holyfeild would beat Johnson, and probably Lewis too...

Jack Johnson = Great Historic Icon & Decent boxer but by no means top 10

Hard Boiled HK
07-02-2006, 07:58 PM
He's #2 for me. Bert Sugar has him #3. The man had between like 79-100 wins, he did know how to box. And I agree with Butterfly, he would school Holyfield and Lewis.

Who's your #1?

Southpaw Stinger
07-02-2006, 08:11 PM
Who's your #1?

read his name and look at his avatar, that might give you a small clue!

Mike Tyson77
07-02-2006, 10:02 PM
Jack Johnson is very overrated...the only reason you ever hear his name in boxing history more or less is because he was black...Besides being black and breaking the color barrier he didn't do anything....Maybe he threw his punches differently,maybe he was good with defense but many fighters have made inovations like this and have not been mentioned..Jack Johnson has one of the most padded records in history only fighting guys like a way over the hill Jefferies..

Jack Johnson is by no means a top 10 heavyweight, if he was white he would be almost like a Bob Fitzsimmons or something of that nature...Known but nobody considers him a top 10 of all time...

Johnson was a decent fighter who's legacy was so distorted by the color of his skin...He fought a few white guys who were not even that good and everybody thought he was some sort of super fighter...This is because Blacks back then were considered inferior so when a person who was thought to be inferior came up and beat all these "White Hopes" then they thought he was superman....This is shown especially with the Jefferies v Johnson fight....I can't believe that anybody would think an old heavy Jefferies would beat a man otherwise in his prime years it's rediculous...It just shows you how everybody thought Johnson was inferior....

IMO Holyfeild would beat Johnson, and probably Lewis too...

Jack Johnson = Great Historic Icon & Decent boxer but by no means top 10


And if he had fought the same people Marciano fought, he would have been 49-0. He beat the best that was around. Jack Johnson is one of the best fighters that walked the earth. He had too much heart to have been beat in his prime. He was too motivated. He was still knocking people out in his 50's!

Mike Tyson77
07-02-2006, 10:38 PM
:no: You've lost all credibility.


When I said Tyson would give Ali a boxing lesson, here's what I meant.


Ali just danced, that was his greatest asset. He could move and slip punches. Tyson was a master pin pointer. He could land punches on Ali that Ali had never felt. Tyson was able to direct his punches to KO people. Maby he wont score a KO, but maby do enough work to get a MD or SD.

micky_knox
07-02-2006, 10:59 PM
When I said Tyson would give Ali a boxing lesson, here's what I meant.


Ali just danced, that was his greatest asset. He could move and slip punches. Tyson was a master pin pointer. He could land punches on Ali that Ali had never felt. Tyson was able to direct his punches to KO people. Maby he wont score a KO, but maby do enough work to get a MD or SD.

i think tyson would have given ali a good fight.........might even have beaten him

but noway would he have given him a boxing lesson.........no other heavy in history would have given ali a lesson in boxing.

Mike Tyson77
07-02-2006, 11:01 PM
but noway would he have given him a boxing lesson.........no other heavy in history would have given ali a lesson in boxing.


Maby not. But Jack Johnson and Joe Louis would have been tough.

micky_knox
07-02-2006, 11:15 PM
Maby not. But Jack Johnson and Joe Louis would have been tough.
hell yea

both these guys would have been a great challenge for ali.......

:boxing:

Hard Boiled HK
07-03-2006, 08:02 PM
When I said Tyson would give Ali a boxing lesson, here's what I meant.


Ali just danced, that was his greatest asset. He could move and slip punches. Tyson was a master pin pointer. He could land punches on Ali that Ali had never felt. Tyson was able to direct his punches to KO people. Maby he wont score a KO, but maby do enough work to get a MD or SD.

Ali felt extremely strong punches from Foreman and Frazier.

Dempsey 1919
07-08-2006, 11:15 PM
He's #2 for me. Bert Sugar has him #3. The man had between like 79-100 wins, he did know how to box. And I agree with Butterfly, he would school Holyfield and Lewis.

Actually, Bert Sugar has him number 4. dempsey is number three.

Dempsey 1919
07-08-2006, 11:19 PM
Jack Johnson is very overrated...the only reason you ever hear his name in boxing history more or less is because he was black...Besides being black and breaking the color barrier he didn't do anything....Maybe he threw his punches differently,maybe he was good with defense but many fighters have made inovations like this and have not been mentioned..Jack Johnson has one of the most padded records in history only fighting guys like a way over the hill Jefferies..

Jack Johnson is by no means a top 10 heavyweight, if he was white he would be almost like a Bob Fitzsimmons or something of that nature...Known but nobody considers him a top 10 of all time...

Johnson was a decent fighter who's legacy was so distorted by the color of his skin...He fought a few white guys who were not even that good and everybody thought he was some sort of super fighter...This is because Blacks back then were considered inferior so when a person who was thought to be inferior came up and beat all these "White Hopes" then they thought he was superman....This is shown especially with the Jefferies v Johnson fight....I can't believe that anybody would think an old heavy Jefferies would beat a man otherwise in his prime years it's rediculous...It just shows you how everybody thought Johnson was inferior....

IMO Holyfeild would beat Johnson, and probably Lewis too...

Jack Johnson = Great Historic Icon & Decent boxer but by no means top 10

Really? Look at your avatar and tell me who's overrated now! you say johnson is overrated because he was black, well marciano was overrated 'cause he was white. Marciano had limited boxing skills, overrated power, chin, and physical strength. If marciano was black, then no one would even dream of putting them in their top three. Johnson would cut him up and stop him.

micky_knox
07-09-2006, 07:51 AM
why do some of you guys keep bringing up the white/black thing?

its petty.
rocky is am all time great because of his performances in the ring.......crude he may have been but he was effective too.......
49-0 no self respecting boxing fan should disrespect that.....it speaks for its self.......


as for johnson........he was a exceptional boxer with superb skills.......i dont have many of his fights unfortunatly....but i do know that white america were determind to dethrone him and threw everybody they had at him........
he should not be rememberd not as the first black champ but as a great champ........

Southpaw Stinger
07-09-2006, 08:31 AM
Ali felt extremely strong punches from Foreman and Frazier.


And Shavers, Lyle and some hard shots from Liston.

Ali fought the hardest punchers of all time and none of them could KO him.

micky_knox
07-09-2006, 08:36 AM
And Shavers, Lyle and some hard shots from Liston.

Ali fought the hardest punchers of all time and none of them could KO him.
henry cooper would have done................ :boxing:

Southpaw Stinger
07-09-2006, 08:39 AM
henry cooper would have done................

Clay was up at three.....

micky_knox
07-09-2006, 09:33 AM
Clay was up at three.....
only just.............dont forget the extra recovery time

Southpaw Stinger
07-09-2006, 01:49 PM
only just.............dont forget the extra recovery time

Which was only like 5 seconds to change a glove. He was ok earlier than that after he had the amonia phile waved under his nose.

Mike Tyson77
07-10-2006, 12:09 PM
Ali felt extremely strong punches from Foreman and Frazier.


You really think those two are faster than Tyson? Could those guys bench press 200+ poulds when they where like 12? Tyson wasnt just strong, but very fast. That's why if they fought, and Tyson won.....it wouldnt be an upset for me.

micky_knox
07-10-2006, 12:13 PM
Which was only like 5 seconds to change a glove. He was ok earlier than that after he had the amonia phile waved under his nose.
ali was out.............dont get me wrong...he was much better than cooper obviously
but there was nothing wrong with his glove and you know it :)

dundee split that glove

Southpaw Stinger
07-10-2006, 01:58 PM
but there was nothing wrong with his glove and you know it

dundee split that glove

I never said there was.... the glove had a small split in it but Dundee split it further with a knife to give his boy some time.

micky_knox
07-10-2006, 02:23 PM
I never said there was.... the glove had a small split in it but Dundee split it further with a knife to give his boy some time.
he gave clay time because he knew he was out....and probobly would have been ko'ed
a shame for cooper but still thats boxing.

Hard Boiled HK
07-10-2006, 09:54 PM
I never said there was.... the glove had a small split in it but Dundee split it further with a knife to give his boy some time.

He ripped the small split up with is hands. I don't believe he had a knife.

Hard Boiled HK
07-10-2006, 09:58 PM
You really think those two are faster than Tyson? Could those guys bench press 200+ poulds when they where like 12? Tyson wasnt just strong, but very fast. That's why if they fought, and Tyson won.....it wouldnt be an upset for me.

I didn't say faster, I said they punched just as hard, if not harder. According to you, you're saying Tyson punched harder than George Foreman, which is completely ridiculous.

Dempsey 1919
07-11-2006, 12:25 AM
You really think those two are faster than Tyson? Could those guys bench press 200+ poulds when they where like 12? Tyson wasnt just strong, but very fast. That's why if they fought, and Tyson won.....it wouldnt be an upset for me.

I don't know about Frazier, but I'm pretty sure Foreman at age 12 could bench that much.

Yaman
07-11-2006, 08:18 AM
I didn't say faster, I said they punched just as hard, if not harder. According to you, you're saying Tyson punched harder than George Foreman, which is completely ridiculous.


Maybe Foreman punches harder than Tyson, but Tyson was wayyy more dangerous. Tyson is one of the best punchers ever combined with incredible speed and power. But Foreman just swung around like an amateur, and his punches didnt have speed, just a ****load of power.

So Tyson was a more dangerous puncher than all of them.

micky_knox
07-11-2006, 10:53 AM
foreman hit hard..........no doubt........but for every 1 of foremans shots tyson would have landed 3 or 4 maybe more......

Southpaw Stinger
07-11-2006, 11:06 AM
Maybe so but Foreman had the physical strength to manhandle any of his opponents. he would pull their gaurds down and paste them with a powerful hook and then he would push them back and jab them away. He pretty muched moved guys into punching positions which made up for his wild swings.

micky_knox
07-11-2006, 11:14 AM
Maybe so but Foreman had the physical strength to manhandle any of his opponents. he would pull their gaurds down and paste them with a powerful hook and then he would push them back and jab them away. He pretty muched moved guys into punching positions which made up for his wild swings.
oh yea he did.............he could bully anybody around the ring with his power.............

but he was so slow.................

Southpaw Stinger
07-11-2006, 11:20 AM
but he was so slow.................

And Tyson was small.... who gives a ****? they both destroyed guys.

micky_knox
07-11-2006, 11:22 AM
And Tyson was small.... who gives a ****? they both destroyed guys.
i aint knocking foreman

i think he was great..........i love his fights :)

Southpaw Stinger
07-11-2006, 11:28 AM
i think he was great..........i love his fights

I love his grills!

micky_knox
07-11-2006, 11:35 AM
I love his grills!
hahahahahah

me too.............i got one the other day.

chicken done the foreman way id awesome :boxing:

Hard Boiled HK
07-11-2006, 07:40 PM
Mike Tyson 77 said Ali never felt punches like those of Tyson's, and I said that's bull****. We're not talking about how much faster Tyson's punches are, but the fact that they are not as powerful as Foreman's, regardless of his speed. So the point is Ali has been punched by Foreman before, so he HAS felt punches greater than that of Tyson's. Tyson punches faster than Foreman, but Foreman's punches are more powerful. Even when Tyson lands on Ali, the power is not unfamiliar.

Smokin'
07-11-2006, 07:42 PM
There's a difference between Tyson's power and Foreman's..Foreman had that sledgehammer power that when he hit you he would hurt your bones but when Tyson hit you it would sting a lot for a second and you might get knocked down or out because of the inability to see the punch.

Dempsey 1919
07-11-2006, 09:45 PM
There's a difference between Tyson's power and Foreman's..Foreman had that sledgehammer power that when he hit you he would hurt your bones but when Tyson hit you it would sting a lot for a second and you might get knocked down or out because of the inability to see the punch.

Yeah, like Ali's punches.

Verstyle
07-11-2006, 09:51 PM
There's a difference between Tyson's power and Foreman's..Foreman had that sledgehammer power that when he hit you he would hurt your bones but when Tyson hit you it would sting a lot for a second and you might get knocked down or out because of the inability to see the punch.


sting? trust me ne punch doesnt sting ahahaha truuuuuuust me. im sure you've sparred before

Hard Boiled HK
07-15-2006, 10:08 PM
sting? trust me ne punch doesnt sting ahahaha truuuuuuust me. im sure you've sparred before

You're right, they sure don't sting; they tickle ang make me giggle whahahahaha! ok i'll shut up.

RockyMarcianofan00
07-15-2006, 10:51 PM
There's a difference between Tyson's power and Foreman's..Foreman had that sledgehammer power that when he hit you he would hurt your bones but when Tyson hit you it would sting a lot for a second and you might get knocked down or out because of the inability to see the punch.
No the difference is when Foreman hit you once or twice you'd be KO'd (or at least knocked down) , Tyson he had to hit you with a few good flurries..and then you'd get up MAYBE and the ref would stop it

paul750
07-15-2006, 10:56 PM
Tyson would have smashed Liston in 1 round. Gave Ali a boxing lesson, and forced the ref to the stop the fight when he's pulling off 8 punch combos on Big George.


No one beats a Pime "Iron" Mike Tyson.Ive had a bad night, but i read that and had a good laugh, thanks.

Yaman
07-16-2006, 10:05 AM
No the difference is when Foreman hit you once or twice you'd be KO'd (or at least knocked down) , Tyson he had to hit you with a few good flurries..and then you'd get up MAYBE and the ref would stop it

You are completely wrong man.

Tyson has had nearly 30 1 punch ko's out of his 44 kos...they were out cold most of the time. Foreman had a handfull of 1 punch ko's. In fact..the only one i can call legit is the jab he hit Moorer with. And he didnt have them out cold most of the time.

Tyson had speed, explosiveness AND power. He hit his opponents when they didn't expect it, they would be countered by his hardest punch. And its always true that the punches that hurt the most are the ones you cant see coming. You could see Foreman's punches coming.

George Foreman had the heaviest hands ever, hands down. But because he didnt posses the speed, accuracy and quickness in his hands, his ko's were out of brute strenght. It was sheer power, and he chopped on them till they had enough.

BmoreBrawler
07-16-2006, 10:58 AM
tyson was unstoppable because it is almost impossible to block and counterpunch him when he bum rushes you with those left hooks

Verstyle
07-16-2006, 11:33 AM
tyson was unstoppable because it is almost impossible to block and counterpunch him when he bum rushes you with those left hooks


hahaha. very true. since i do his style i know what your talking about. whenever i come in quick and throw they other person cant do ****. cause there being overwhelmed with me punching

Hard Boiled HK
07-16-2006, 08:40 PM
tyson was unstoppable because it is almost impossible to block and counterpunch him when he bum rushes you with those left hooks

No one is unstoppable, including Tyson.

hellfire508
07-16-2006, 11:10 PM
Wow, this thread is still going?

Tyson looked excellent that night, and would be very, very hard to beat. But it was against Trevor Berbick for crying out loud.

No boxer could have beaten Muhammad Ali on the 14th of November, 1966.

No boxer could have beaten Joe Louis on the 22nd of June, 1938.

The best heavyweights all looked invincible at some stage. But they definately were not.

Mike Tyson77
07-17-2006, 02:05 PM
Ive had a bad night, but i read that and had a good laugh, thanks.


How many people beat an 86' Tyson? That's right......NONE. No one was even close.

micky_knox
07-17-2006, 02:16 PM
How many people beat an 86' Tyson? That's right......NONE. No one was even close.
that dosent mean he was unbeatable though.....
no boxer in history in unbeatable........it just takes the right person to come along and do it...

Southpaw Stinger
07-17-2006, 03:06 PM
How many people beat an 86' Tyson? That's right......NONE. No one was even close.

How many people beat a 66' Ali? how many people beat a 71' Frazier? How many people beat a 73' Foreman? none! But they all lost in the end and to better guys than Tyson lost too.

hellfire508
07-18-2006, 05:06 AM
How many people beat an 86' Tyson? That's right......NONE. No one was even close.

How many people beat a 1960, 61, 62, 63, 64, 65, 66, 67, 70, 72, 74, 75, 76 or 77 Muhammad Ali? NONE! We all know we didn't even see his prime, between 68 and 70! That's right. He MUST be the greatest!

Yaman
07-18-2006, 09:29 AM
How many people beat a 1960, 61, 62, 63, 64, 65, 66, 67, 70, 72, 74, 75, 76 or 77 Muhammad Ali? NONE! We all know we didn't even see his prime, between 68 and 70! That's right. He MUST be the greatest!

Let him have his opinion instead of nuthuggin Ali in every TYSON thread. There are plenty of Ali threads.

RockyMarcianofan00
07-18-2006, 11:00 AM
In regards to this thread, that answer is thats false..No fighter in history on any night is 100% unbeatable.. Some fighters look flashier compared to others, some may look un beatable but this is not fact its thought....

For instance put Foreman on his best night against Joe Louis on his best night together and neither of them will look as flashy as-
Joe Louis against Max Schmelling (II)

and

George Foreman against Joe Frazier

Now you may have your idea of who will win but the fact is both looked "unbeatable" on these nights but put both fighters in the ring on those nights and they won't look unbeatable....I mean wether one wins or the other the fact is they won't look as flashy....

ya know?

Mike Tyson77
07-18-2006, 02:38 PM
Tyson was too hungry to lose that night. He knocked Berbick down three times with one punch. No one could stand up to that. He had rooney, desire, power, speed, and no Don King or Robin Givens. I would pick that version of Tyson to beat any fighter that ever lived.

RockyMarcianofan00
07-18-2006, 02:58 PM
Tyson was too hungry to lose that night. He knocked Berbick down three times with one punch. No one could stand up to that. He had rooney, desire, power, speed, and no Don King or Robin Givens. I would pick that version of Tyson to beat any fighter that ever lived.

change the bold word to contend with and I can agee with you...No fighter is 100% unbeatable...

Floydko1
07-18-2006, 06:54 PM
lol It's funny reading some off these replys for the AMATUERS lol,

Ppl still believing tyson was unbeatable in the late 80s
Just remember who he actually faced in them years
Tony Tucker (prob the best guy he beat in my book Tucker was a class act in his prime)

Tevor Berbick
Toney Tubbs
James smith
Pinklin Thomas
a Old Holmes
a true legend in Spinks but a true Light-heavy weight, Spinks had balls even facing Holmes even at holmes age,

And the talk about Tyson would beat Ali is a huge insult to the great man Ali would ave talkd **** 2 tyson tolded him what round he would be down and would school him all fight

Mike Tyson77
07-18-2006, 10:51 PM
lol It's funny reading some off these replys for the AMATUERS lol,

Ppl still believing tyson was unbeatable in the late 80s
Just remember who he actually faced in them years
Tony Tucker (prob the best guy he beat in my book Tucker was a class act in his prime)

Tevor Berbick
Toney Tubbs
James smith
Pinklin Thomas
a Old Holmes
a true legend in Spinks but a true Light-heavy weight, Spinks had balls even facing Holmes even at holmes age,

And the talk about Tyson would beat Ali is a huge insult to the great man Ali would ave talkd **** 2 tyson tolded him what round he would be down and would school him all fight


None of those guys where even close to beating Tyson. Tyson would take Ali out in 4 rounds or win a close UD.

Hard Boiled HK
07-18-2006, 11:43 PM
How many people beat an 86' Tyson? That's right......NONE. No one was even close.

And exactly how does this statement support your arguement?

RockyMarcianofan00
07-19-2006, 12:43 AM
I'm not really 100% sure who'd win between Ali and Tyson (Prime to Prime) ....
That fights near impossible to gauge, but what I will say is ALi would have a tough time with Tyson like he did with Joe Frazier...

Also Ali would work Tyson's head alot and maybe get to his head with his jab being so fast...So Tyson would also have a hard time with Ali...

Verstyle
07-19-2006, 12:48 AM
lol It's funny reading some off these replys for the AMATUERS lol,

Ppl still believing tyson was unbeatable in the late 80s
Just remember who he actually faced in them years
Tony Tucker (prob the best guy he beat in my book Tucker was a class act in his prime)

Tevor Berbick
Toney Tubbs
James smith
Pinklin Thomas
a Old Holmes
a true legend in Spinks but a true Light-heavy weight, Spinks had balls even facing Holmes even at holmes age,

And the talk about Tyson would beat Ali is a huge insult to the great man Ali would ave talkd **** 2 tyson tolded him what round he would be down and would school him all fight

never know unless u saw it

hellfire508
07-19-2006, 04:26 AM
Let him have his opinion instead of nuthuggin Ali in every TYSON thread. There are plenty of Ali threads.

Nuthugging? I am a very realistic Ali fan.

You on the other hand...

Get ****ed dickhead.

hellfire508
07-19-2006, 04:31 AM
None of those guys where even close to beating Tyson. Tyson would take Ali out in 4 rounds or win a close UD.

Like Liston was going to? Oh no, that was 1 round...

Or like Tyson took Bonecrusher out in 4? Or Jose Ribalta (who?)?

Picking Tyson is FINE.. but by 4th round KO? THAT is an insult to Ali. Someone who was the most elusive heavyweight ever, had a top 5 heavyweight chin, and heart, and the best recuperative powers... plus everything else he had... aint getting taken out in 4 rounds by anything short of a tank.

RockyMarcianofan00
07-19-2006, 05:00 AM
Like Liston was going to? Oh no, that was 1 round...

Or like Tyson took Bonecrusher out in 4? Or Jose Ribalta (who?)?

Picking Tyson is FINE.. but by 4th round KO? THAT is an insult to Ali. Someone who was the most elusive heavyweight ever, had a top 5 heavyweight chin, and heart, and the best recuperative powers... plus everything else he had... aint getting taken out in 4 rounds by anything short of a tank.
I have to agree Tyson wouldn't take Ali out in 4
I'm not saying Ali would win but what I am saying is that Ali's very worst (Holmes,Berbick and even Spinks) all the guys who beat him took over 10 rounds....Even if Tyson was just hitting while Ali was defending and moderately attacking it would take him more then 4 rounds....

Mike Tyson77
07-19-2006, 10:39 AM
Like Liston was going to? Oh no, that was 1 round...

Or like Tyson took Bonecrusher out in 4? Or Jose Ribalta (who?)?

Picking Tyson is FINE.. but by 4th round KO? THAT is an insult to Ali. Someone who was the most elusive heavyweight ever, had a top 5 heavyweight chin, and heart, and the best recuperative powers... plus everything else he had... aint getting taken out in 4 rounds by anything short of a tank.


Tyson either lands a big shot or wins a close UD.

Southpaw Stinger
07-19-2006, 10:50 AM
Tyson either lands a big shot or wins a close UD.

You think Tyson would get a decision over Ali? LMAO

Or you think he would land a big shot and finnish him when harder punchers like Shavers, Foreman, Liston and Lyle couldn't? lol

hellfire508
07-19-2006, 10:57 AM
You think Tyson would get a decision over Ali? LMAO

Or you think he would land a big shot and finnish him when harder punchers like Shavers, Foreman, Liston and Lyle couldn't? lol

In fairness, Tyson fought differently to those guys. Nonetheless, Ali took Shavers' best shots, Foreman's, Frazier's, and Lyle's... and he beat them all. This was a past prime Ali. Ali didn't take Liston's best shots, cos he never got caught. He was far too quick for Sonny. So when you can take tens of bombs from the hardest hitters in history, AND elude the majority of them if you choose to dance, I don't think that "lucky" shot is going to come.

Southpaw Stinger
07-19-2006, 11:01 AM
In fairness, Tyson fought differently to those guys. Nonetheless, Ali took Shavers' best shots, Foreman's, Frazier's, and Lyle's... and he beat them all. This was a past prime Ali. Ali didn't take Liston's best shots, cos he never got caught. He was far too quick for Sonny. So when you can take tens of bombs from the hardest hitters in history, AND elude the majority of them if you choose to dance, I don't think that "lucky" shot is going to come.

Exactly, it depends on which form of Ali fights Tyson. Speedy Ali who could dance and dodge for 15 rounds and throw speedy combos. Or more static Ali who could take more punishment than a tank and still pull out victories with endurance, detirmination and outsmarting his opponents.

I think either Ali would school Tyson.

RockyMarcianofan00
07-19-2006, 11:05 AM
Tyson either lands a big shot or wins a close UD.
2 things the whole thing about a UD is its not close if it were close it would have been an SD or at least an MD

Also the fact that Tyson would Decision Ali is alittle far fetched...Tyson would more likely KO or TKO Ali but I don't think Decision him...Ali was the king of Decisions, I believe he won most of his fights by decision (or at least alot)....Plus Ali had more Stamina then Tyson so I don't think Tyson could Comfortabley go into later rounds with Ali....

Mike Tyson77
07-19-2006, 12:11 PM
2 things the whole thing about a UD is its not close if it were close it would have been an SD or at least an MD

Also the fact that Tyson would Decision Ali is alittle far fetched...Tyson would more likely KO or TKO Ali but I don't think Decision him...Ali was the king of Decisions, I believe he won most of his fights by decision (or at least alot)....Plus Ali had more Stamina then Tyson so I don't think Tyson could Comfortabley go into later rounds with Ali....


No, a close UD, like this......114-113, 114-113, 115-112 All for Tyson. Tyson would try to knock Ali head off and in doing so wouls rack up a lot of punches and get a win. Tyson was much faster than shavers, foreman, and fraizer and just as strong. He could take Ali, I know Ali could maby beat Tyson, but if I was a beating man Id pick Tyson.

RockyMarcianofan00
07-19-2006, 12:26 PM
No, a close UD, like this......114-113, 114-113, 115-112 All for Tyson. Tyson would try to knock Ali head off and in doing so wouls rack up a lot of punches and get a win. Tyson was much faster than shavers, foreman, and fraizer and just as strong. He could take Ali, I know Ali could maby beat Tyson, but if I was a beating man Id pick Tyson.
Bold-
yea and got Tyson tired

Tyson's best chance is to KO or TKO Ali before the 8th round

but Ali's fast and hard to hit but if anybody could do it like Joe Frazier did then it would be Tyson..(unlike Joe Frazier though I don't think it would be a decision win)

Hard Boiled HK
07-19-2006, 03:27 PM
If Tyson wins, it would HAVE TO BE a knockout. He will not beat Ali by decision.

Also, Mike Tyson 77, would you be so kind as to answer my previous post in this thread? It's directed to you. Thank you.

Edit: That's post #197 in this thread I am referring to.

hellfire508
07-19-2006, 07:19 PM
No, a close UD, like this......114-113, 114-113, 115-112 All for Tyson. Tyson would try to knock Ali head off and in doing so wouls rack up a lot of punches and get a win. Tyson was much faster than shavers, foreman, and fraizer and just as strong. He could take Ali, I know Ali could maby beat Tyson, but if I was a beating man Id pick Tyson.

Tyson was faster than Shavers and Foreman, but I don't think he cut off the ring as well as Foreman. Foreman was a master at this. Faster than Frazier? Maybe in terms of handspeed, but Frazier is very underrated in the speed department. In addition, Frazier had seemingly unlimited stamina, and possibly the biggest heart the division has seen. His heart is what gave him his victory over a post prime Ali. Any lesser fighter would've folded, he took immense punishment.

If Tyson tried to knock Ali's head off, he would definately lose by stoppage. He would have to be a little more conserted to win this matchup. Foreman tried it, throwing non-stop leather every round, and he was KTFO. Ali on the other hand, similarly to the likes of Marciano, Frazier etc., could throw a helluva lot of leather for 15 rounds. He would pepper Tyson with his long-range straight shots.

realheavyhands
07-19-2006, 08:41 PM
hahaha. very true. since i do his style i know what your talking about. whenever i come in quick and throw they other person cant do ****. cause there being overwhelmed with me punching
they can hook back

Mike Tyson77
07-20-2006, 02:27 PM
If Tyson wins, it would HAVE TO BE a knockout. He will not beat Ali by decision.

Also, Mike Tyson 77, would you be so kind as to answer my previous post in this thread? It's directed to you. Thank you.

Edit: That's post #197 in this thread I am referring to.


No one ever beat the Tyson Im talking about. In 86' he was motivated, hungry, and very talented. He also had a great guy in his conner in Kevin Rooney. He's my favorite fighter and the one that got me hooked on Boxing, so of course he's like Superman to me.

Southpaw Stinger
07-20-2006, 03:13 PM
No one ever beat the Tyson Im talking about. In 86'

Again - what decent fighters did Tyson beat in 86?

You can say that about any fighter, no one beat Ali between 1960 to 1971

Virtually no one could beat Foreman

Liston and Frazier also seemed invincible.

They all beat better guys than Tyson fought at that time so their records are much more impressive.

Hard Boiled HK
07-20-2006, 04:38 PM
How many people beat an 86' Tyson? That's right......NONE. No one was even close.

The thing is, with this quote you're asking which boxer in 1986 beat Tyson, and since no boxer beat him in 1986, you're saying that version of Tyson was invincible. That is possibly the worst quote you can possibly use in your arguement. And many people have obviously taken advantage of this.

It's like saying:

How many people beat a 70' Frazier? That's right......NONE. No one was even close.

Or

How many people beat a 67' Ali? That's right......NONE. No one was even close.

Or

How many people beat a 73' Foreman? That's right......NONE. No one was even close.

Etc.

mrpickem
07-20-2006, 04:57 PM
Boxer? hell I dont think Mike coulda beat the current Fedor

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/3/33/Fedor.jpg/200px-Fedor.jpg

Mike Tyson77
07-20-2006, 05:18 PM
Fraizer was knocked down and had some close SD. Ali was knocked down when he was clay by some Henry cooper guy. They where mortal. Tyson WASNT. He could not have been beat, he is the greatest of all time.

Yaman
07-20-2006, 05:24 PM
Fraizer was knocked down and had some close SD. Ali was knocked down when he was clay by some Henry cooper guy. They where mortal. Tyson WASNT. He could not have been beat, he is the greatest of all time.

And that is your opinion. I respect that. More people should.

Southpaw Stinger
07-20-2006, 05:26 PM
Fraizer was knocked down and had some close SD. Ali was knocked down when he was clay by some Henry cooper guy. They where mortal. Tyson WASNT. He could not have been beat, he is the greatest of all time.


When Tyson went down, he stayed down - more than any other champ in history.

And you are talking BS if you are saying he could not have been beat, he was knocked out cold when he was 23 for ****s sake!

RockyMarcianofan00
07-20-2006, 09:17 PM
No one ever beat the Tyson Im talking about. In 86' he was motivated, hungry, and very talented. He also had a great guy in his conner in Kevin Rooney. He's my favorite fighter and the one that got me hooked on Boxing, so of course he's like Superman to me.
As far as I know this isn't a Tyson vs Ali thread so I'm not hijacking it by saying that Foreman of the 70's could KO Tyson...Foreman has a good Chin he took hits from Lyle, and took some of Joe Fraziers best...In Foremans prime he only lost too Ali and Young, and Ali beat him because he out smarted Foreman, and Young beat Foreman because he knew that in order to win he'd have to be fast and elusive...

Tyson and Foreman are both guys with less then steallar stamina, both like to hit...Tyson's faster and has punching power in both hand, Foreman is moderatly fast and has a right hand with bulldozing force...It would be a slug fest in the early rounds because they both don't like later roudns....let me just say Toe-to-Toe isn't the greatest place for Tyson to be against a guy like Foreman, I'll say Tyson stands as good a chance as any considering his head movement is superb but with Foreman's overall reach advantage and the fact that he eats swarmers alive I don't see even a Prime Tyson getting to Foreman...

hellfire508
07-20-2006, 10:20 PM
Fraizer was knocked down and had some close SD. Ali was knocked down when he was clay by some Henry cooper guy. They where mortal. Tyson WASNT. He could not have been beat, he is the greatest of all time.

:dunno:

Tyson wasn't mortal? Wow, what the hell was Buster Douglas then?

Ali was knocked down in 1963 (and still came back the next round and dished out the most concentrated amount of punishment I've seen in the space of 40 seconds or whatever it was, to win). His peak was 1965-7 (would have been 68-9, but that didnt happen). In 1965-7, Ali beat Sonny Liston, Floyd Patterson, George Chuvalo, Henry Cooper, Cleveland Williams, Ernie Terrell and Zora Folley. Plus the German champ Karl Mildenberger, and Brian London, who was nothing basically. All of these fights he won by stoppage, except for Chuvalo, who had the hardest chin in history. He won that fight by a landslide. Against Terrell, he could have finished the fight in the 7th round, and anytime thereafter, but he punished him instead. Probably the most 1 sided 15 rounds you will ever see.

Tyson in 1986 beat something like 13 fighters. That is incredible. However, the opponents were utter ****. With the exception of Berbick (who was nothing special either), he beat nobodies.

I'm not trying to compare the fighters, I'm just showing you that every great champ had times when they looked unstoppable. But they weren't, as everyone except Marciano was shown. Perhaps you will agree, Rocky Marciano was invincible, because he never lost at all?

Hard Boiled HK
07-20-2006, 11:17 PM
Fraizer was knocked down and had some close SD. Ali was knocked down when he was clay by some Henry cooper guy. They where mortal. Tyson WASNT. He could not have been beat, he is the greatest of all time.

That is your opinion. And I don't respect that. Less people should, unless you will acknowledge that Buster Douglas is God.

micky_knox
07-21-2006, 02:36 AM
As far as I know this isn't a Tyson vs Ali thread so I'm not hijacking it by saying that Foreman of the 70's could KO Tyson...Foreman has a good Chin he took hits from Lyle, and took some of Joe Fraziers best...In Foremans prime he only lost too Ali and Young, and Ali beat him because he out smarted Foreman, and Young beat Foreman because he knew that in order to win he'd have to be fast and elusive...

Tyson and Foreman are both guys with less then steallar stamina, both like to hit...Tyson's faster and has punching power in both hand, Foreman is moderatly fast and has a right hand with bulldozing force...It would be a slug fest in the early rounds because they both don't like later roudns....let me just say Toe-to-Toe isn't the greatest place for Tyson to be against a guy like Foreman, I'll say Tyson stands as good a chance as any considering his head movement is superb but with Foreman's overall reach advantage and the fact that he eats swarmers alive I don't see even a Prime Tyson getting to Foreman...
prime tyson was way to fast for prime forman.......
i just finished watching some dvds...and ive decided that forman was nothing but power,however tyson had power along with speed.......hell tyson could dodge george in his sleep.......
i wasnt sure before but now i am.............i go tyson.

hellfire508
07-21-2006, 03:23 AM
prime tyson was way to fast for prime forman.......
i just finished watching some dvds...and ive decided that forman was nothing but power,however tyson had power along with speed.......hell tyson could dodge george in his sleep.......
i wasnt sure before but now i am.............i go tyson.

That's what everyone said about Frazier too. "He's too fast for George. That left hook is like lightning, and it will land all night. George's bombs won't land with Joe bobbing and weaving as quick as he does... easy fight for Joe".

Dempsey 1919
07-21-2006, 03:39 AM
That's what everyone said about Frazier too. "He's too fast for George. That left hook is like lightning, and it will land all night. George's bombs won't land with Joe bobbing and weaving as quick as he does... easy fight for Joe".

You took the words right out of my mouth.

micky_knox
07-21-2006, 04:59 AM
That's what everyone said about Frazier too. "He's too fast for George. That left hook is like lightning, and it will land all night. George's bombs won't land with Joe bobbing and weaving as quick as he does... easy fight for Joe".
tyson was a lot faster than joe..........hit harder too
and a better boxer

hellfire508
07-21-2006, 05:33 AM
tyson was a lot faster than joe..........hit harder too

Faster how? With combinations perhaps. But Joe's left hook was lightning, and I doubt Tyson's was any quicker. Footspeed, they were both come forward fighters, so it has no relevance against Foreman (who at come-forward fighters alive). Although, the edge would go to Frazier in my books. Hit harder? His right hand was harder, but I think Frazier's left hook is definately as hard as Mike's. Frazier is so underrated its ridiculous.

micky_knox
07-21-2006, 05:42 AM
Faster how? With combinations perhaps. But Joe's left hook was lightning, and I doubt Tyson's was any quicker. Footspeed, they were both come forward fighters, so it has no relevance against Foreman (who at come-forward fighters alive). Although, the edge would go to Frazier in my books. Hit harder? His right hand was harder, but I think Frazier's left hook is definately as hard as Mike's. Frazier is so underrated its ridiculous.
i dont underate joe.............i just think tyson was faster with his hands and feet........a better boxer too......
maybe i was wrong in hitting harder,but its close.
i love joe.......his 3 fights with ali are classics.

Southpaw Stinger
07-21-2006, 08:19 AM
Tyson was barely faster than Joe at all, and Joe's chin, stamina and detirmination are better than Tyson. Foreman in his prime was not slow at all and any fighter that would try to swarm him would get pasted. No way Tyson comes forward and some how blocks foremans hooks, jabs, uppercuts and pushes to survive and start punching himself.

Foreman to destroy Tyson in 3. foreman destroyed smaller guys.

Liston would destroy Tyson as well in 5 rounds and Ali would school Tyson and finnish him in 9.

catskills23
07-21-2006, 08:21 AM
Faster how? With combinations perhaps. But Joe's left hook was lightning, and I doubt Tyson's was any quicker. Footspeed, they were both come forward fighters, so it has no relevance against Foreman (who at come-forward fighters alive). Although, the edge would go to Frazier in my books. Hit harder? His right hand was harder, but I think Frazier's left hook is definately as hard as Mike's. Frazier is so underrated its ridiculous.

Tyson was much faster on his feet than frazier you moron . I mean frazier was a plodder compared to tyson . Tyson was the second quickest heavy ever.

catskills23
07-21-2006, 08:23 AM
Tyson was barely faster than Joe at all, and Joe's chin, stamina and detirmination are better than Tyson. Foreman in his prime was not slow at all and any fighter that would try to swarm him would get pasted. No way Tyson comes forward and some how blocks foremans hooks, jabs, uppercuts and pushes to survive and start punching himself.

Foreman to destroy Tyson in 3. foreman destroyed smaller guys.

Liston would destroy Tyson as well in 5 rounds and Ali would school Tyson and finnish him in 9.

Here is another delusional clown who thinks frazier was faster than tyson . You know what your right and frazier was also faster than ali . Frazier was superman infact.

Southpaw Stinger
07-21-2006, 08:24 AM
Tyson was the second quickest heavy ever.

All the quicker to run into a hook or uppercut...

tyson comes in, Foreman pushes him out and jabs him to keep him there. Foreman lets the hooks and uppercuts fly and Tyson is left crying somewhere over the Atlantic.

Cus used to watch tapes with Tyson of Frazier vs Foreman and told Tyson that a swarmer like him would never be able to beat a person like Foreman. He told Tyson that the only way Foreman could be beaten would be by a tall, rangy fighter.

catskills23
07-21-2006, 08:27 AM
All the quicker to run into a hook or uppercut...

tyson comes in, Foreman pushes him out and jabs him to keep him there. Foreman lets the hooks and uppercuts fly and Tyson is left crying somewhere over the Atlantic.

fine think what you like but i hope i have enligtened you to the fact that tyson was a much faster fighter than frazier in ever sense of the word . Tyson possessed the speed of a middleweight in his prime.

Southpaw Stinger
07-21-2006, 08:28 AM
Here is another delusional clown who thinks frazier was faster than tyson . You know what your right and frazier was also faster than ali . Frazier was superman infact.

I never said frazier was faster than tyson dick head. I said his hand speed was comparable and his foot speed wasn't far behind when you watch him swarm.

Southpaw Stinger
07-21-2006, 08:29 AM
fine think what you like but i hope i have enligtened you to the fact that tyson was a much faster fighter than frazier in ever sense of the word . Tyson possessed the speed of a middleweight in his prime.

I've seen more than enough of Tyson to make up my own mind thank you.

catskills23
07-21-2006, 08:32 AM
I never said frazier was faster than tyson dick head. I said his hand speed was comparable and his foot speed wasn't far behind when you watch him swarm.

neither were comparabe. Frazier just looks as fast as tyson because he cut the ring off tyson didnt cut the ring off he just chased them across the ring . Frazier didnt do that he shuffled forward and cut the ring off but he wasent quick on his feet.

Southpaw Stinger
07-21-2006, 08:34 AM
neither were comparabe. Frazier just looks as fast as tyson because he cut the ring off tyson didnt cut the ring off he just chased them across the ring . Frazier didnt do that he shuffled forward and cut the ring off but he wasent quick on his feet.

Isn't that all he needs to be? Since they both come forward what does it matter?

catskills23
07-21-2006, 08:37 AM
I've seen more than enough of Tyson to make up my own mind thank you.

Well you obviously havent . If you think frazier was nearly as fast as tyson .Now get this it was acknowleded by boxing experts that tyson was as quick as a middleweight and it was acknowledged that frazier had decent speed for a heavyweight .

catskills23
07-21-2006, 08:39 AM
Isn't that all he needs to be? Since they both come forward what does it matter?

Yeah thats right.What matters is that you are wrong in saying frazier was nearly as quick tyson.

Heckler
07-21-2006, 08:40 AM
tyson was a lot faster than joe..........hit harder too
and a better boxer

Frazier didn't lose just because of Foremans punching power, he lost because he was a swarming fighter whom was totally ineffective on the backfoot... George Foreman with his huge physical strength could push any fighter back including tyson. Tyson would be on the backfoot from the start, Foreman throwing sledgehammer blows from the outside as Tyson is forced to backup... as Tyson attempts to get on the inside he would be on the recieving end of Foremans huge uppercuts. I believe without a doubt Tyson would be intimated, discouraged by Foremans physicality and aggression and inevitably knocked out mainly as a result of a huge stylistic disadvantage.

Yaman
07-21-2006, 08:41 AM
Tyson has a lot more handspeed than Frazier. He's a lot quicker on his feet than Frazier. He bobs and weaves faster than Frazier. He throws COMBOS a million times fast than Frazier, while Frazier just settles with the left hook. He has a better chin than Frazier cause heart is what kept Frazier up when he had spaghetti legs against Ali. Tyson was rocked against 230lb Hard hitting Bruno. And was hit flush and got his head snapped back by Razor's left hook. He didn't have spaghetti legs like Frazier.

catskills23
07-21-2006, 08:43 AM
i will say one thing about tyson concerning this thread . He was not unbeatable in his prime because he lost to james tillis.

Yaman
07-21-2006, 08:49 AM
i will say one thing about tyson concerning this thread . He was not unbeatable in his prime because he lost to james tillis.

Haha. He obviously won on points after the 10th round. And hey, he wasn't even in his prime yet. He came off a 19 wins by stoppage and didn't fight someone as experienced as Tillis before. Not to mention this was a 10 rounds fight.

Heckler
07-21-2006, 08:50 AM
Fraizer was knocked down and had some close SD. Ali was knocked down when he was clay by some Henry cooper guy. They where mortal. Tyson WASNT. He could not have been beat, he is the greatest of all time.

Tyson wasn't a mortal? He could not have been beat? biggest problem with boxing fans today... ****en morons with extremist views. From Ali being able to dodge bullets to Tyson being an unbeatable god to Marciano being an immortal italian beast and so on... just ****en ridiculous. Tyson was a human and thus had human weakness... He was an amazing physical specimen however lacked the intangible qualities previous champions had in bucketloads, even technically he wasn't perfect... standing upright on the inside allowed his taller opponents to dominate him on the inside using leverage, all too willing to coast on the inside he often opted to fight at mid-range allowing taller opponents to accentuate their physical gifts such as height and reach. Tyson was a great, and like all the all-time greats he was capable of taking out anybody at his best... but like all the all-time greats he was far from unbeatable.

catskills23
07-21-2006, 08:51 AM
Tyson was a natural southpaw . Why did he change?.

hellfire508
07-21-2006, 09:09 AM
Tyson was much faster on his feet than frazier you moron . I mean frazier was a plodder compared to tyson . Tyson was the second quickest heavy ever.

Charles, Walcott, Patterson and Ali were all faster than him. And don't call me a moron, I have a thousand times the boxing knowledge you do, so you are only insulting yourself. Frazier a plodder? Hell, what fights of his have you seen?

Watch Frazier against the likes of Chuvalo, Quarry, Ramos, Ellis and Foster. He is a machine. Let alone the Frazier of Ali 1. Frazier moves very quickly on his feet. Watch some footage before you embarass yourself. If you would get Tyson's balls out of your mouth, and watched other fighters too, you would see he isn't God.

hellfire508
07-21-2006, 09:11 AM
fine think what you like but i hope i have enligtened you to the fact that tyson was a much faster fighter than frazier in ever sense of the word . Tyson possessed the speed of a middleweight in his prime.

Who is the delusional clown? I take it you've never seen the likes of Robinson, Monzon etc. in action?

hellfire508
07-21-2006, 09:15 AM
Tyson has a lot more handspeed than Frazier. He's a lot quicker on his feet than Frazier. He bobs and weaves faster than Frazier. He throws COMBOS a million times fast than Frazier, while Frazier just settles with the left hook. He has a better chin than Frazier cause heart is what kept Frazier up when he had spaghetti legs against Ali. Tyson was rocked against 230lb Hard hitting Bruno. And was hit flush and got his head snapped back by Razor's left hook. He didn't have spaghetti legs like Frazier.

Spaghetti legs? What **** are you on about? Frazier's chin was solid, it probably wasn't quite as good as Tyson's though. But he didn't have spaghetti legs. The major difference between the two is heart. Frazier had so much it was ridiculous, Tyson had barely any. But you are right (like I said initially), that Tyson's handspeed is faster in terms of throwing multiple punches (i.e. combinations), but in terms of the single left hook, which was Joe's money punch, I think Frazier was on par with Tyson.

catskills23
07-21-2006, 09:18 AM
Charles, Walcott, Patterson and Ali were all faster than him. And don't call me a moron, I have a thousand times the boxing knowledge you do, so you are only insulting yourself. Frazier a plodder? Hell, what fights of his have you seen?

Watch Frazier against the likes of Chuvalo, Quarry, Ramos, Ellis and Foster. He is a machine. Let alone the Frazier of Ali 1. Frazier moves very quickly on his feet. Watch some footage before you embarass yourself. If you would get Tyson's balls out of your mouth, and watched other fighters too, you would see he isn't God.

Charles no, Walcott no, Patterson hands yes but feet no, ali faster with hands and feet.

catskills23
07-21-2006, 09:23 AM
Spaghetti legs? What **** are you on about? Frazier's chin was solid, it probably wasn't quite as good as Tyson's though. But he didn't have spaghetti legs. The major difference between the two is heart. Frazier had so much it was ridiculous, Tyson had barely any. But you are right (like I said initially), that Tyson's handspeed is faster in terms of throwing multiple punches (i.e. combinations), but in terms of the single left hook, which was Joe's money punch, I think Frazier was on par with Tyson.

your a clown.