View Full Version : who are the greatest trainers in boxing history


Pri/\/\e
06-07-2006, 06:29 PM
we always talk about the boxers what bout the man that trains the boxers

Verstyle
06-07-2006, 06:33 PM
dundee and cus d'amato r up there.oh and duva

Pri/\/\e
06-07-2006, 06:47 PM
dundee and cus d'amato r up there.oh and duva


agree cus trained two great champions patterson and tyson (both have son in there name never knew that)

K-DOGG
06-07-2006, 07:14 PM
Ray Arcel, Eddie Futch, Emmanuel Steward, Angelo Dundee, George Benton...several others.

Yogi
06-07-2006, 07:34 PM
Cus D'Amato's name seems out of place being mentioned in this thread.

Verstyle
06-07-2006, 07:37 PM
Cus D'Amato's name seems out of place being mentioned in this thread.


and that is? he helped train 2 of the youngest undisputed champions and champions of the world.how many guys do u know that can turn boys into men that quickly :rolleyes:

JuicyJuice
06-07-2006, 07:51 PM
Dundee?? No way. He took on two Olympic Gold medalists in Ali and Leonard, SO WHAT? And if it wasn't for Charlie Goldman, Dundee wouldn't know **** all.

JuicyJuice
06-07-2006, 07:52 PM
Goldman and Jack Blackburn are awesome, for me.

K-DOGG
06-07-2006, 07:58 PM
...ah, Goldman and Blackburn. Good call. I'm honestly ashamed I didn't think of them. Kudos!

Da Iceman
06-07-2006, 07:59 PM
goldman blackburn futch duva roach rooney dundee d'amato

Yogi
06-07-2006, 08:00 PM
and that is? he helped train 2 of the youngest undisputed champions and champions of the world.how many guys do u know that can turn boys into men that quickly :rolleyes:

If you're including all weight classes there's been plenty of fighters who have won world titles when younger than Tyson or Patterson, and I'll be ****ed if I was to call say, Gregorio Benitez one of the great trainers in history just because he trained his son who won a title at age 17...

In over 50 years as a rather one-dimensional trainer, how many fighters actually won titles while training under Cus' watchful eye...three?

Verstyle
06-07-2006, 08:07 PM
If you're including all weight classes there's been plenty of fighters who have won world titles when younger than Tyson or Patterson, and I'll be ****ed if I was to call say, Gregorio Benitez one of the great trainers in history just because he trained his son who won a title at age 17...

In over 50 years as a rather one-dimensional trainer, how many fighters actually won titles while training under Cus' watchful eye...three?


but look at the short time it was done in. very short. thats called disipline training. not alot of trainers can do this right?

Yogi
06-07-2006, 08:27 PM
but look at the short time it was done in. very short. thats called disipline training. not alot of trainers can do this right?

Again, plenty of trainers have trained fighters to win titles at a younger age than what Cus did, and heck, there's even plenty of trainers who trained fighters to win a title much faster than Cus did, like Rakamich or whatever his name was, who trained a fighter who won a world title in his third pro fight...

And it certainly took Jose Torres a long time to win a title, so that tells me that Cus found lightning in a bottle a couple of times in Patterson & Tyson, who had the natural ability to succeed a a young age (as did MANY different fighters)...Heck, you know the story on Cus' first viewing of watching a 14 year-old Tyson spar, I'm sure. After Bobby Stewart first helped out Mike with boxing lessons and after he brought up him to spar in front of the old trainer, Cus' first comment was along the lines of "that kid is going to be heavyweight champion some day".

Cus got lucky with that find, if you ask me, and if he was such a great trainer he most certianly had developed other fighters who had some success in the pro game, or at least had established fighters seek him out as their trainer. But no, from Torres & Patterson's time to Tyson's time, Cus didn't accomplish anything of note as a trainer and instead "toiled in relative obscurity" for those years, which is basically what he did in the years before Patterson came to him.

RockyMarcianofan00
06-07-2006, 08:35 PM
Again, plenty of trainers have trained fighters to win titles at a younger age than what Cus did, and heck, there's even plenty of trainers who trained fighters to win a title much faster than Cus did, like Rakamich or whatever his name was, who trained a fighter who won a world title in his third pro fight...

And it certainly took Jose Torres a long time to win a title, so that tells me that Cus found lightning in a bottle a couple of times in Patterson & Tyson, who had the natural ability to succeed a a young age (as did MANY different fighters)...Heck, you know the story on Cus' first viewing of watching a 14 year-old Tyson spar, I'm sure. After Bobby Stewart first helped out Mike with boxing lessons and after he brought up him to spar in front of the old trainer, Cus' first comment was along the lines of "that kid is going to be heavyweight champion some day".

Cus got lucky with that find, if you ask me, and if he was such a great trainer he most certianly had developed other fighters who had some success in the pro game, or at least had established fighters seek him out as their trainer. But no, from Torres & Patterson's time to Tyson's time, Cus didn't accomplish anything of note as a trainer and instead "toiled in relative obscurity" for those years, which is basically what he did in the years before Patterson came to him.

what made Cus so great for Tyson specifically was the fact that Tyson was a raw talent that was for the most part out of control. Cus was the only one that tyson would listen too, and he also kept Tyson on the right track. For instance if Cus was alive the whole Tyson-Douglas loss wouldn't have happened.

Yogi
06-07-2006, 08:36 PM
P.S. Cus was also a hypocrite when it came to certain things (like the whole IBC situation), and with some minor differences between fighters (Torres was more of a jabber & mover than the other two), basically only trained his fighters to fight a certain way behind the peak-a-boo defense...He's rather one dimensional, whereas the more successful trainers in history usually train their fighters in a style that best suits the fighters' individual attributes.

RockyMarcianofan00
06-07-2006, 08:41 PM
P.S. Cus was also a hypocrite when it came to certain things (like the whole IBC situation), and with some minor differences between fighters (Torres was more of a jabber & mover than the other two), basically only trained his fighters to fight a certain way behind the peak-a-boo defense...He's rather one dimensional, whereas the more successful trainers in history usually train their fighters in a style that best suits the fighters' individual attributes.
Like Charlie Goldman?
Though I'm only aware of him training Marciano he trained Marciano the way Marciano was.

Yogi
06-07-2006, 08:42 PM
what made Cus so great for Tyson specifically was the fact that Tyson was a raw talent that was for the most part out of control. Cus was the only one that tyson would listen too, and he also kept Tyson on the right track. For instance if Cus was alive the whole Tyson-Douglas loss wouldn't have happened.

That's not true, at all, as Cus didn't keep Tyson on the right track as much as ignore the troubles Mike was getting into or, along with Jacobs, helped cover them up (such as the "forced sex" of that young Catskill's girl, which Jacobs admitted happened)...There's plenty of stories by eyewitnesses who basically stated that Cus spoiled Tyson, let him do waht he wanted to do, and gave him special treatment...

If anybody deserves the credit for giving just a little bit of guidance, discipline, and understanding to Tyson, that man would be Bobby Stewart.

Verstyle
06-07-2006, 08:45 PM
That's not true, at all, as Cus didn't keep Tyson on the right track as much as ignore the troubles Mike was getting into or, along with Jacobs, helped cover them up (such as the "forced sex" of that young Catskill's girl, which Jacobs admitted happened)...There's plenty of stories by eyewitnesses who basically stated that Cus spoiled Tyson, let him do waht he wanted to do, and gave him special treatment...

If anybody deserves the credit for giving just a little bit of guidance, discipline, and understanding to Tyson, that man would be Bobby Stewart.


cus' was still a damn good trainer. how many trainers do u see make up there own boxing style? and succeed with it?

RockyMarcianofan00
06-07-2006, 08:46 PM
That's not true, at all, as Cus didn't keep Tyson on the right track as much as ignore the troubles Mike was getting into o(such as the "forced sex" of that young Catskill's girl, which Jacobs admitted happenedr, along with Jacobs, helped cover them up )...There's plenty of stories by eyewitnesses who basically stated that Cus spoiled Tyson, let him do waht he wanted to do, and gave him special treatment...

If anybody deserves the credit for giving just a little bit of guidance, discipline, and understanding to Tyson, that man would be Bobby Stewart.
i was not even aware of this happening, I knew he raped somebody but I thought it was when he was older. I don't know all that much about Tyson outside the ring though anyway

Yogi
06-07-2006, 08:46 PM
Like Charlie Goldman?
Though I'm only aware of him training Marciano he trained Marciano the way Marciano was.

Yeah, like Charlie Goldman, who actually trained a younger fighter to win a title than did Cus (19 year old, Al McCoy) and was very well known for what I spoke of up there.

Dempsey 1919
06-07-2006, 08:48 PM
Eddie futch, angelo dundee, ray arcel, cus d'amato, and others.

joeytrimble
06-07-2006, 08:48 PM
the trainer question is relitivly silly because your just gonna get the same group of know it alls shouting cus d ..angelo d and eddie futch over and over agian you wont hear any of them hollar archie moores trainer out or joe louis trainer ... you for damn sure wont hear them yelling the names of the guys who trained joe gans... maxie rosen or willie pep ...

so just stop acting like you guys know trainers because most of you just throw around the same 3 or 4 names every time just like when someone talks about the biggest hitter the best defense or whatever ...its always the same names lol

Verstyle
06-07-2006, 08:51 PM
the trainer question is relitivly silly because your just gonna get the same group of know it alls shouting cus d ..angelo d and eddie futch over and over agian you wont hear any of them hollar archie moores trainer out or joe louis trainer ... you for damn sure wont hear them yelling the names of the guys who trained joe gans... maxie rosen or willie pep ...

so just stop acting like you guys know trainers because most of you just throw around the same 3 or 4 names every time just like when someone talks about the biggest hitter the best defense or whatever ...its always the same names lol


i personally liked what cus did. and i got to see it in person when i went to the catskill's gym. he has a strong legacy that was felt when i went there. and no 1 will change my mind about him being a great. u gotta be there to understand(catskills gym that is)

Yogi
06-07-2006, 08:54 PM
i was not even aware of this happening, I knew he raped somebody but I thought it was when he was older. I don't know all that much about Tyson outside the ring though anyway

In his younger days, Tyson has/had a lengthy history of getting himself into trouble with young girls & woman (according to his first biographer, who offered quotes from those closest to Tyson).

joeytrimble
06-07-2006, 09:19 PM
i personally liked what cus did. and i got to see it in person when i went to the catskill's gym. he has a strong legacy that was felt when i went there. and no 1 will change my mind about him being a great. u gotta be there to understand(catskills gym that is)
thats cool though likeing him and bringing him up in the greatest coaches of all time every time is different know what i mean?your not running it down like a broken record

SABBATH
06-07-2006, 09:38 PM
In his younger days, Tyson has/had a lengthy history of getting himself into trouble with young girls & woman (according to his first biographer, who offered quotes from those closest to Tyson).Teddy Atlas was going to shoot Tyson when he made sexual advances to Teddy's 11 year old sister....

Heckler
06-07-2006, 11:15 PM
Dundee?? No way. He took on two Olympic Gold medalists in Ali and Leonard, SO WHAT? And if it wasn't for Charlie Goldman, Dundee wouldn't know **** all.

Thats ridiculous. Both Ali and Sugar ray have admitted without Dundee they wouldn't have been as sucessful as they were. He was an incredible motivator, you couldn't hope to have a better person standing in your corner. He was experienced, calm under pressure and a very clever man in general.

'And if it wasn't for Charlie Goldman, Dundee wouldn't know **** all' What the **** does that mean? Are we to discredit Dundee for learning his craft from another man? Where do you suppose blackburn and goldman learned?

I wouldn't place Dundee on the same level as Goldman, Blackburn... i just thought he deserved a mention.

Brassangel
06-07-2006, 11:56 PM
Tyson also apparently used to steal groceries from people after helping carry them across the street.

SABBATH
06-08-2006, 12:11 AM
Thats ridiculous. Both Ali and Sugar ray have admitted without Dundee they wouldn't have been as sucessful as they were. He was an incredible motivator, you couldn't hope to have a better person standing in your corner. He was experienced, calm under pressure and a very clever man in general.

'And if it wasn't for Charlie Goldman, Dundee wouldn't know **** all' What the **** does that mean? Are we to discredit Dundee for learning his craft from another man? Where do you suppose blackburn and goldman learned?

I wouldn't place Dundee on the same level as Goldman, Blackburn... i just thought he deserved a mention.Dundee's strength in developing those fighters had less to do with his technical teachings and more to do with how he built and guided his fighters by matchmaking in increments. Leonard in particular was trained by Janks Morton and Dave Jacobs. Dundee only showed up a week before the fight to oversee final training and map out the pre-fight strategy. It was a bone of contention with Leonard's manager Mike Trainer and almost severed the relationship early in Leonard's career.

If you survey the rise of both Ali and Leonard you will see their in the ring challenges becoming a little more difficult on their rise to the top. They never took a backwards step and fought a tomato can if they were already fighting world class competition. The were purposely given adversity early on to shape their physical and psychological development. How else could the relatively young and inexperienced Ali and Leonard win titles against such established and more experienced fighters like Liston and Benitez?

Dundee knew Sonny Liston had a big left hook so why do you think he matched him with guys like Cooper and Banks? Dundee said he wanted to see Ali get hurt to see how he would respond, it was all part of testing his fighter. He wasn't about to waste his time training a guy that would roll over and die in his first tough fight.

When Dundee matched Leonard with Ayub Kalule an undefeated 5'8 counterpunching southpaw middleweight who do you think Dundee was preparing Leonard to meet down the road? Same as when he matched him with hard hitting 6'1 middleweight Marcos Geraldo when Leonard was on the rise. Who do you think he was preparing Leonard for in that fight? Leonard had some trouble in those two fights both with Kalule's southpaw stance and Geraldo's height, reach, and power,but Leonard learned and gained experience which allowed him to better adapt to Hagler and Hearns when he finally did meet them.

Dempsey 1919
06-08-2006, 04:31 AM
Dundee's strength in developing those fighters had less to do with his technical teachings and more to do with how he built and guided his fighters by matchmaking in increments. Leonard in particular was trained by Janks Morton and Dave Jacobs. Dundee only showed up a week before the fight to oversee final training and map out the pre-fight strategy. It was a bone of contention with Leonard's manager Mike Trainer and almost severed the relationship early in Leonard's career.

If you survey the rise of both Ali and Leonard you will see their in the ring challenges becoming a little more difficult on their rise to the top. They never took a backwards step and fought a tomato can if they were already fighting world class competition. The were purposely given adversity early on to shape their physical and psychological development. How else could the relatively young and inexperienced Ali and Leonard win titles against such established and more experienced fighters like Liston and Benitez?

Dundee knew Sonny Liston had a big left hook so why do you think he matched him with guys like Cooper and Banks? Dundee said he wanted to see Ali get hurt to see how he would respond, it was all part of testing his fighter. He wasn't about to waste his time training a guy that would roll over and die in his first tough fight.

When Dundee matched Leonard with Ayub Kalule an undefeated 5'8 counterpunching southpaw middleweight who do you think Dundee was preparing Leonard to meet down the road? Same as when he matched him with hard hitting 6'1 middleweight Marcos Geraldo when Leonard was on the rise. Who do you think he was preparing Leonard for in that fight? Leonard had some trouble in those two fights both with Kalule's southpaw stance and Geraldo's height, reach, and power,but Leonard learned and gained experience which allowed him to better adapt to Hagler and Hearns when he finally did meet them.

nice post. And if it wasn't for dundee, ali would have lost to cooper and liston.