View Full Version : Charles "Sonny" Liston vs. Rocky Marciano


Brassangel
06-07-2006, 01:12 AM
Many of us saw how this match (allegedly) turned out in the "NBA Playoffs + boxing" thread posted by resident Ali fanatic, butterfly1964. I am interested in the opinions of others, however, as to how this match may go.

Did Liston really ever face anyone with the heart and determination of Marciano? A man who could punch for 25 rounds without getting tired, Rocky Marciano might just be able to slip beneath those long, extended arms of the Bear and lay into him. This maneuver could cause Liston to buckle just enough to even consider quitting. Or would this go as butterfly has suggested with Liston stopping Marciano as he comes in, overwhelming the Rock with well-time counterbombs?

Place your votes and voice your opinions.

RockyMarcianofan00
06-07-2006, 01:18 AM
In all honesty if anything this is a bad style matchup for Liston.
I said this early and I repeat it

I'd give Marciano the edge over Liston, Style wise its not as bad a matchup as people say it. Marciano had a mix of Swarmer and Slugger but people only give Marciano credit for his Swarmer style when in fact he put 100% of his power behind each punch, sounds a bit like a slugger. Thing about a Swarmer is there often in more of a crouch and is trying to wear his opponent down and then KO the other guy.

I couldn't really put slugger into terms into my mind so i turned to good old Wikipedia-
Brawler

If the out-fighter represents everything classy about boxing, the brawler (also known as the 'slugger', 'hard hitter' or 'one puncher') often stands for everything that's wrong with the sport. Sluggers tend to lack finesse in the ring, but make up for it in raw power, often able to knock almost any opponent out with a single punch. This ability makes them exciting to watch, and their fights unpredictable. Many brawlers tend to lack mobility in the ring and have difficulty pursuing fighters who are fast on their feet. They prefer the harder, slower punches (such as hooks and uppercuts) and tend to ignore combination punching. Their slowness and predictable punching patterns (single punches with obvious leads) often leaves them open for counterpunching.

Hmm the bold sounds like Marciano - but yet Sluggers oftne don't have the Stamina to go beyond at most 7 rounds without beginning to lose some edge- examples-George Foreman,Sonny Liston,and I believe Earnie Shavers as well.

So Marciano is hybrid between Slugger and Swarmer because he shows Many Slugger Attributes, and yet has the stance (somewhat) and Stamina of a Swarmer.

Any way getting back to what we were talking about, what they're doing is taking fighters from different periods in their careers and comparing them to Prime marciano, to be honest Prime to Prime I give Marciano a chance with anybody that ever fought, does that mean I think he could win against any fighter no. The reason I give Marciano the edge is because he had unmatched Heart, His stamina gave him the ability to go many many rounds throwing his best punches and taking punishment and still be fresh, and finally his punching power was great and in both hands. He had KO power in either hand.

I feel I've strayed from waht i was going to say- so I may end up posting again, I agree with many outcomes on that link (not all) but I don't agree with many of the things that lead up to the outcome.

My source for Slugger info
its under styles or something like that
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boxing

That should basically sum it up.
Marciano has the advantage in strength, stamina, style, heart.

Rocky Marciano > Sonny Liston

Rocky Ko's Sonny 9

rocco1252
06-07-2006, 01:46 AM
The biggest problem is going to be the weight difference, everyone's gripe is always about how he was a cruiserweight fighting Light Heavies old and out of prime. I can already see it coming, Marciano had a weak chin he went down against Walcott and Moore who were Light Heavies yada yada. He wasnt going to be able to get inside on the bigger man, too much power from Liston, Marciano had no defense, wouldnt be able to get inside of the Liston jab. Ahh what else? Marciano Cut to easy he would be busted up. Man the list goes on.

Point of the matter is I believe Marciano could win regardless of all the factors previously presented because Marciano would have had the heart and no fear of the intimidating Liston in which relied so much on. Once you got those you've already done half the battle. Marciano would have kept coming no matter what swarming someone who never was because he was so big and powerful. Liston had long arms but he wasnt a great inside fighter in my opinion, Marcino would get inside and rip him apart little by little. Marciano KO 10 over Liston

Heckler
06-07-2006, 02:39 AM
Marciano had a tendancy to get wild and leave himself open.. this could be disastrous against a huge puncher like Sonny that could make Marciano darely for such mistakes. Marciano will be walking straight towards a man who is bigger, stronger, taller and thus having a leverage advantage on the inside. Liston had huge reach and a sledgehammer jab that could make things most difficult for Marciano when trying to work his way inside.

Rocky had huge stamina and a heart to match. He wouldn't be easy to hit, although i think the notion that he would wade straight under Listons straight punches without incurring any damage is ridiculous. This would be a slugfest, who would win? Im so unsure im not going to vote.

Heckler
06-07-2006, 02:43 AM
In all honesty if anything this is a bad style matchup for Liston.
I said this early and I repeat it



That should basically sum it up.
Marciano has the advantage in strength, stamina, style, heart.

Rocky Marciano > Sonny Liston


Rocky Ko's Sonny 9

If only things were that simplistic. Im not sure if Marciano has the advantage in strength, infact i'd give the nod to Sonny on this one. Punching power? not sure.

sleazyfellow
06-07-2006, 02:49 AM
neither faced an opponent like the other in their respective times, but i beleive liston would win, an up and coming liston (b4 the title) had the skills and power to put rocky on his ass for sure b4 5 rounds was over

Dempsey 1919
06-07-2006, 03:29 AM
neither faced an opponent like the other in their respective times, but i beleive liston would win, an up and coming liston (b4 the title) had the skills and power to put rocky on his ass for sure b4 5 rounds was over

Goooooood! It's refreshing to see that some people still know their boxing. Good Karma for you, plus 10mil!

RockyMarcianofan00
06-07-2006, 04:39 AM
Goooooood! It's refreshing to see that some people still know their boxing. Good Karma for you, plus 10mil!
butterfly many of us know our boxing, we also all know that Sonny Liston is overrated. I understand its not as simple as Rocky Marciano just winning. Now I will admit one thing Sonny Liston did have skill coming up, he was powerful,strong,precise,and able to get those good shots in.

But the way I see it things Liston has working against him are:
Marciano has more stamina then Liston, and Marciano will be able to take it into later rounds without being nervous.

Marciano's defense was deceptive.

Marciano gets the nod for punching power IMO but I suppose its decently close.

Marciano not only fought as a slugger he fought as a swarmer.

Although- Things Marciano has working against him:
Liston was good at picking and getting the good shots in.

Liston was a IMO very precise puncher.

Liston had better handspeed, and footwork.

Liston had a huge reach.

The way I see it, Liston will during the fight Liston will get good hard shots on Marciano, trying to keep him at bay. Liston will most likely succeed in the beginning because Marciano tended to be a slow starter feeling out his opponents. Later Marciano will start getting inside and landing huge body shots, and probably a few headshots. Later Liston will begin to get tired and marciano will still be fresh, and thats when Marciano will make his move and KO Liston. Marciano KO's Liston in 8

I'd like to say one thing though I doubht severely that Liston will quit on his stool.

Dempsey 1919
06-07-2006, 04:45 AM
butterfly many of us know our boxing, we also all know that Sonny Liston is overrated. I understand its not as simple as Rocky Marciano just winning. Now I will admit one thing Sonny Liston did have skill coming up, he was powerful,strong,precise,and able to get those good shots in.

But the way I see it things Liston has working against him are:
Marciano has more stamina then Liston, and Marciano will be able to take it into later rounds without being nervous.

Marciano's defense was deceptive.

Marciano gets the nod for punching power IMO but I suppose its decently close.

Marciano not only fought as a slugger he fought as a swarmer.

Although- Things Marciano has working against him:
Liston was good at picking and getting the good shots in.

Liston was a IMO very precise puncher.

Liston had better handspeed, and footwork.

Liston had a huge reach.

The way I see it, Liston will during the fight Liston will get good hard shots on Marciano, trying to keep him at bay. Liston will most likely succeed in the beginning because Marciano tended to be a slow starter feeling out his opponents. Later Marciano will start getting inside and landing huge body shots, and probably a few headshots. Later Liston will begin to get tired and marciano will still be fresh, and thats when Marciano will make his move and KO Liston. Marciano KO's Liston in 8

I'd like to say one thing though I doubht severely that Liston will quit on his stool.

If Marciano got past three rounds with Liston then that could happen, but I doubt that Marciano would go into the later rounds anyway.

RockyMarcianofan00
06-07-2006, 04:48 AM
If Marciano got past three rounds with Liston then that could happen, but I doubt that Marciano would go into the later rounds anyway.
You under estimate Marciano, if it was Foreman then yes I would say getting past 3 would be a great accomplishment, but It's Liston and even though he's tough I can see him getting past 3.

Only thing Marciano would really have a problem with more so then Liston's power is his Precise Punching, but then again (not to compare these two fighters) Jersey Joe was a pretty precise puncher too. I'm not comparing them just pointing out that Marciano face precise punchers.

Southpaw Stinger
06-07-2006, 07:21 AM
I don't really like to say. I would would prefer to see 3 fights between them to see if they adapted their styles. Marciano usually did better the second time he face an opponent, like with Walcott, Charles, Lastarza etc.
But Liston was such an imressive fighter in his prime both at a distance and toe to toe so I might give the nod to Liston. Hard one to call when you weigh everything up.

Yaman
06-07-2006, 07:25 AM
Same here. I dont know who i should pick to win. I voted for 3 fights. Too bad thats never gonna happen!!

hellfire508
06-07-2006, 08:04 AM
No doubt in my mind that Liston takes this. Marciano would put up a great fight, but Sonny's reach, monster jab and power unfelt by Marciano would eventually force the ref to step in after 9 rounds.

Brassangel
06-07-2006, 10:42 AM
Wow, I have been very impressed with (most of) the posts here. It's a tough call for me. If Liston would win, I think it would come simply because the ref stopped it. His accurate, hard punches might bump and cut Marciano enough to warrant stoppage. Even so, Rocky would likely still be fighting. If Rocky won, it would be in true Brockton fashion: punch and roll until Liston couldn't fight back anymore.

K-DOGG
06-07-2006, 10:52 AM
Many of us saw how this match (allegedly) turned out in the "NBA Playoffs + boxing" thread posted by resident Ali fanatic, butterfly1964. I am interested in the opinions of others, however, as to how this match may go.

Did Liston really ever face anyone with the heart and determination of Marciano? A man who could punch for 25 rounds without getting tired, Rocky Marciano might just be able to slip beneath those long, extended arms of the Bear and lay into him. This maneuver could cause Liston to buckle just enough to even consider quitting. Or would this go as butterfly has suggested with Liston stopping Marciano as he comes in, overwhelming the Rock with well-time counterbombs?

Place your votes and voice your opinions.

IMHO Rocky would stop Liston; and here's why...

Rocky throughout his career showed heart, will, and determination to win despite whatever obsticle was in front of him. Liston, though past his best, showed the classic bully mentality when challenged...by Cassius Clay. Once it was evident that Clay was on his way to victory, beating Liston regularly to the punch and really beating him up, Liston quit on his stool, surrendering his World Heavyweight Championship....the same prize he had fought so hard to achieve before Patterson finally went against Cus' advice and gave Sonny a shot....rather than be knocked out. He quit.

Boxing is 90% mental and Rocky's will was stronger than Liston's....plus, Rocky was the type of fighter who was a truth machine, as I like to call them; he'd test your very resolve and keep coming and keep coming until you beat him dead.

Going by the psychological make-up Liston displayed against Clay in fight no 1....and don't give me that "fix" ****.....there is no way he would ever beat Marciano.

Southpaw Stinger
06-07-2006, 11:06 AM
Once it was evident that Clay was on his way to victory, beating Liston regularly to the punch and really beating him up, Liston quit on his stool, surrendering his World Heavyweight Championship....the same prize he had fought so hard to achieve before Patterson finally went against Cus' advice and gave Sonny a shot....rather than be knocked out. He quit.

You have to remember though that Listons shoulder popped out in that fight and the doctor told Liston to quit. His shoulder came out ofhis socket because he couldn't connect his jabs properly with Clay who was very fast and elusive.
He wouldn't have this problem against Marciano since Marciano is smaller and slower than Ali and fights on the front foot instead of the back foot.

K-DOGG
06-07-2006, 11:12 AM
You have to remember though that Listons shoulder popped out in that fight and the doctor told Liston to quit. His shoulder came out ofhis socket because he couldn't connect his jabs properly with Clay who was very fast and elusive.
He wouldn't have this problem against Marciano since Marciano is smaller and slower than Ali and fights on the front foot instead of the back foot.

The shoulder story was a story. There's no evidence, to my knowledge, that anything was wrong with his shoulder at all.

Brockton Lip
06-07-2006, 11:21 AM
Marciano's defense was deceptive.

Definitely. Watch his fight with Archie Moore and you'll see that he can be very defensive if he wanted to. He would bob and weave a little, stayed low and back slightly to protect from jabs, kept his hands up; he was always moving.

I think this fight would be a great one. I see Marciano eventually working his way in and stopping the Bear with his incredible determination, stamina, chin, and power.

Southpaw Stinger
06-07-2006, 11:25 AM
The shoulder story was a story. There's no evidence, to my knowledge, that anything was wrong with his shoulder at all.

Not true, the shoulder incident was confirmed by a doctor at a hopital after the fight.

Southpaw Stinger
06-07-2006, 11:25 AM
Marciano's defense was deceptive.

Marciano was very hard to hit on the inside.

K-DOGG
06-07-2006, 11:35 AM
Not true, the shoulder incident was confirmed by a doctor at a hopital after the fight.

Honestly, that's news to me. Every special I've seen on the fight or article I've read about the fight more or less denied anything was wrong with Sonny's shoulder.

Yogi
06-07-2006, 11:46 AM
Not true, the shoulder incident was confirmed by a doctor at a hopital after the fight.

And it was only one doctor who confirmed the injury, as there were about six (maybe more) who examined Liston after the fight and all confirmed the injury was legit.

K-DOGG
06-07-2006, 11:49 AM
Well, there you have it. I'm outvoted.

Out of curiosity...not that I don't believe you guys; but is there anywhere I can read these accounts?

Southpaw Stinger
06-07-2006, 11:49 AM
Honestly, that's news to me. Every special I've seen on the fight or article I've read about the fight more or less denied anything was wrong with Sonny's shoulder.

I always thought Sonny faked the shoulder thing as well but I've read articles and seen parts on documentries that all show that exrays were taken and showed he had detatched his shoulder. I'll try and find a few bits of evidence if you want.

K-DOGG
06-07-2006, 11:50 AM
I always thought Sonny faked the shoulder thing as well but I've read articles and seen parts on documentries that all show that exrays were taken and showed he had detatched his shoulder. I'll try and find a few bits of evidence if you want.

That'd be great. Not that I don't believe you; but..well, you know.

Southpaw Stinger
06-07-2006, 11:53 AM
That'd be great. Not that I don't believe you; but..well, you know.

It's alright, I wouldn't believe me either!


http://www.answers.com/topic/sonny-liston

- just go down to the bit about Liston vs Clay 1

I'll try to find some more.

Yogi
06-07-2006, 11:57 AM
Well, there you have it. I'm outvoted.

Out of curiosity...not that I don't believe you guys; but is there anywhere I can read these accounts?

Well for one quick source, there is this little bit from an AP report dated Feb 26th, 1964;

"Doctor's Findings; DOCTORS CONFIRM INJURY TO LISTON

Feb. 26 -- A team of eight physicians said in a statement issued early this morning that the defeated heavyweight champion, Sonny Liston, had suffered an arm injury that would have prevented him from defending himself in his title fight against Cassius Clay."

K-DOGG
06-07-2006, 11:59 AM
It's alright, I wouldn't believe me either!


http://www.answers.com/topic/sonny-liston

- just go down to the bit about Liston vs Clay 1

I'll try to find some more.

Huh, well I'll be damned. You learn something new every day.

Thanks for the link. It's truthfully going to take a while to adjust my mind to this bit of information; but facts are facts. I just can't believe I thought it was B.S. all this time. That'll teach me....falty reporting, you gotta love it.

Thank you again.

Southpaw Stinger
06-07-2006, 12:01 PM
It's a pleasure to educate man.

K-DOGG
06-07-2006, 12:02 PM
Well for one quick source, there is this little bit from an AP report dated Feb 26th, 1964;

"Doctor's Findings; DOCTORS CONFIRM INJURY TO LISTON

Feb. 26 -- A team of eight physicians said in a statement issued early this morning that the defeated heavyweight champion, Sonny Liston, had suffered an arm injury that would have prevented him from defending himself in his title fight against Cassius Clay."

Thank you too, Yogi. Gees, I feel like a complete boob. Do you have any idea how long I've believed there was no injury?! :mad:

I now must go lash myself or something. :o

King Koyle
06-07-2006, 12:03 PM
Goooooood! It's refreshing to see that some people still know their boxing. Good Karma for you, plus 10mil!

Just because someone doesn't agree with your opinion,doesn't mean that they don't know their boxing.If we all had the same views,then this forum would suck!

Southpaw Stinger
06-07-2006, 12:04 PM
Do you have any idea how long I've believed there was no injury?!

Since 1964? lol

rocco1252
06-07-2006, 12:06 PM
I dont see Liston stopping Marciano in anyway , he would give Marciano a tough time the first few rounds but after Liston realized what he was doing wasnt slowing down the swarming Marciano he would fold up and loss his cofindence and Marciano would then prevail. Liston would tire out after a few rounds of pressure and body shots by the rock and would later take some head shots putting down Liston later on in the fight. Marciano KO Liston in 10

K-DOGG
06-07-2006, 12:07 PM
Since 1964? lol

LOL!!! Damn near.

SABBATH
06-07-2006, 12:12 PM
LOL!!! Damn near.
I have a picture of Liston leaving the hospital wearing sunglasses and his arm in a sling....more contradictory evidence to the myths perpetuated about Liston to substantiate him as a quitter I suppose. Liston loaded his jab and you can see alot in that fight he is drilling it into thin air. Try that for the better part of 6 rounds and see how your shoulder feels.

K-DOGG
06-07-2006, 12:14 PM
I have a picture of Liston leaving the hospital wearing sunglasses and his arm in a sling....more contradictory evidence to the myths perpetuated about Liston to substantiate him as a quitter I suppose. Liston loaded his jab and you can see alot in that fight he is drilling it into thin air. Try that for the better part of 6 rounds and see how your shoulder feels.

Makes sense.

rocco1252
06-07-2006, 12:22 PM
I have a picture of Liston leaving the hospital wearing sunglasses and his arm in a sling....more contradictory evidence to the myths perpetuated about Liston to substantiate him as a quitter I suppose. Liston loaded his jab and you can see alot in that fight he is drilling it into thin air. Try that for the better part of 6 rounds and see how your shoulder feels.
LISTON WAS A *****!

SABBATH
06-07-2006, 12:23 PM
Makes sense.
Here's your morning smile and a good Liston quote he said to Ali:

"I'll use you like an elevator. I'll push the button and down you'll go..."

K-DOGG
06-07-2006, 12:28 PM
Here's your morning smile and a good Liston quote he said to Ali:

"I'll use you like an elevator. I'll push the button and down you'll go..."

lol!!! Liston did have better wit than most people give him credit for. Ah well. The retooling of my attitude towards Sonny Liston is underway. I do confess I always felt kind of sorry for him; and knowing the injury was legit does help. Poor guy just couldn't win; but his lifestyle choices didn't help to endear him to the public.....still, he never could seem to catch a break.

SABBATH
06-07-2006, 12:43 PM
lol!!! Liston did have better wit than most people give him credit for. Ah well. The retooling of my attitude towards Sonny Liston is underway. I do confess I always felt kind of sorry for him; and knowing the injury was legit does help. Poor guy just couldn't win; but his lifestyle choices didn't help to endear him to the public.....still, he never could seem to catch a break.Liston could match wits for sure. Here's another:

Clay: You must fall in six!

Liston: By the sixth I expect to be back in my hotel watching the rerun of the fight.

K-DOGG
06-07-2006, 12:47 PM
Liston could match wits for sure. Here's another:

Clay: You must fall in six!

Liston: By the sixth I expect to be back in my hotel watching the rerun of the fight.

LOL!!!! :lol1:

RockyMarcianofan00
06-07-2006, 03:17 PM
I see Marciano KO'ing Liston
I don't see the ref stopping it on cuts, Marciano had some pretty brutal cuts in other fights ref never stopped it. 3 fights would be awesome..

Brassangel
06-07-2006, 03:29 PM
Sonny Liston not only missed loaded up jabs, but he also threw a lot of hooks that almost wrapped around himself because Clay moved away from the punches. He clearly wanted to end the fight early, and it cost him his shoulder. There was a little psychology involved; Liston did tell his corner after the 6th, "I'm not going back out there...you can chase him around if you want to." This might be a sign of heart as opposed to a quitter's mentality I guess. He kept trying to hit Clay even after his shoulder became separated. Now I just don't know what to think about him. :confused:

Liston was witty, he was just completely overshadowed by the much louder and far more flambouyant Clay. I almost enjoyed Liston's comments better.

realheavyhands
06-07-2006, 03:32 PM
marciano wouldnt even fight floyd patterson at 33 and look what liston did to him

RockyMarcianofan00
06-07-2006, 03:39 PM
marciano wouldnt even fight floyd patterson at 33 and look what liston did to him
Oh come on

Marciano's not the one who avoided Patterson, Patterson said he wanted to fight LHW for a few more years. As soon as Marciano retired Patterson fought for the title.

Also Marciano didn't retire to avoid fights, he had a back injury, manager problem, and there weren't any contenders left.

Rocky had a professional record of 49-0 with forty-three knockouts. Some say that he was 50-0 (with forty-four knockouts), but that bout can not be proven as a professional, yet. He was originally scheduled to fight Nino Valdez in his last fight on January 2, 1956 (or at a later date in Cuba, June 1956), but that fight, originally planned for Orlando, Florida, never took place. Other possible contenders near the end of Marciano's career were Tommy Hurricane Jackson, Bob Baker and Floyd Patterson; however, Patterson was not yet ready to take on Marciano and wanted to fight for light-heavyweight championship first for about one to two more years.


Read up on it
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rocky_Marciano

Rocky Marciano avoided no fight.

Parody
06-07-2006, 04:09 PM
Tale of the tape:


Marciano:

Reach: 67
Stance: Orthodox
Height: 5' 11
Weight: 185 lbs

Liston:

Reach: 84
Stance: Orthodox
Height: 6'1
Weight: 217


My thoughts:

Styles make fights and Liston is a bad opponent for Marciano, I personally cant see this fight going past the 6th or 7th, you guys have to remember Rocky Marciano was always matched with opponents similar to his size, there was no cruiserweight division at that time so he could have fought at Heavyweight just weighing 180 pounds, Liston on the other hand was much heavy, bulky, stronger..did you guys know that Sonny Liston had the biggest hands in Heavyweight history...I mean the guy had 15 inch fists and an 84 inch reach and he was known for the best reach in history of Heavyweights,...He had a reach that measured between 82-84 inches. On top of that he was thought to have the strongest jab in heavyweight history...I mean Sonny punched so hard in the ring that he frequently knocked opponents through the ropes.

This would be a nightmare for Marciano, who faced guys evenly his size, In my opinion it would be a mis-match

Dempsey 1919
06-07-2006, 04:11 PM
I don't think Liston was that much of a quitter. He once fought a fight with a broken jaw against Marty Marshall and didn't quit. He was floored once early in his career and he got back up off the canvas to knock the guy out. So I think Liston's heart is blown out of proportion.

Dempsey 1919
06-07-2006, 04:15 PM
Tale of the tape:


Marciano:

Reach: 67
Stance: Orthodox
Height: 5' 11
Weight: 185 lbs

Liston:

Reach: 84
Stance: Orthodox
Height: 6'1
Weight: 217


My thoughts:

Styles make fights and Liston is a bad opponent for Marciano, I personally cant see this fight going past the 6th or 7th, you guys have to remember Rocky Marciano was always matched with opponents similar to his size, there was no cruiserweight division at that time so he could have fought at Heavyweight just weighing 180 pounds, Liston on the other hand was much heavy, bulky, stronger..did you guys know that Sonny Liston had the biggest hands in Heavyweight history...I mean the guy had 15 inch fists and an 84 inch reach and he was known for the best reach in history of Heavyweights,...He had a reach that measured between 82-84 inches. On top of that he was thought to have the strongest jab in heavyweight history...I mean Sonny punched so hard in the ring that he frequently knocked opponents through the ropes.

This would be a nightmare for Marciano, who faced guys evenly his size, In my opinion it would be a mis-match

THANK YOU!

They don't seem to get it. Marciano has a 67" reach and is slow as molasses. He couldn't frequently get under Liston's 84" reach, and Liston's handspeed IMO is pretty damn good, watch the Cleveland Williams fight. Very good post. I thought I was alone in this one, at least now I got someone to agree to the exact same thing I have been saying for the past six months. good k for you.

Dempsey 1919
06-07-2006, 04:16 PM
THANK YOU!

They don't seem to get it. Marciano has a 67" reach and is slow as molasses. He couldn't frequently get under Liston's 84" reach, and Liston's handspeed IMO is pretty damn good, watch the Cleveland Williams fight. Very good post. I thought I was alone in this one, at least now I got someone to agree to the exact same thing I have been saying for the past six months. good k for you.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Parody again.

Sorry. :(

Parody
06-07-2006, 04:22 PM
You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Parody again.

Sorry. :(

Np man. I'm just going with the facts man, Liston was a wrecking machine.

Parody
06-07-2006, 04:38 PM
The first fight was legit, but the second one many believe that Liston took a dive, the punch that was known as "The Phantom Punch", majority of the people believe liston did that on purpose and liston claimed after the fight that he was threatened by the people of Nation of islam that he and his wife would be killed if he did'nt lose, Many people believed it was'nt a real punch and that Liston take taken a dive on account of his association with organized crime, but eyewitnesses and video review both point to the same thing: that Ali nailed Liston with an unbelievably fast right cross to the jaw.

RockyMarcianofan00
06-07-2006, 05:31 PM
THANK YOU!

They don't seem to get it. Marciano has a 67" reach and is slow as molasses. He couldn't frequently get under Liston's 84" reach, and Liston's handspeed IMO is pretty damn good, watch the Cleveland Williams fight. Very good post. I thought I was alone in this one, at least now I got someone to agree to the exact same thing I have been saying for the past six months. good k for you.
butterfly stop you sound like that guy from the other thread talking about how great Nikolay Valuev is because he's big come on :rolleyes:

RockyMarcianofan00
06-07-2006, 05:39 PM
Tale of the tape:


Marciano:

Reach: 67
Stance: Orthodox
Height: 5' 11
Weight: 185 lbs

Liston:

Reach: 84
Stance: Orthodox
Height: 6'1
Weight: 217


My thoughts:

Styles make fights and Liston is a bad opponent for Marciano, I personally cant see this fight going past the 6th or 7th, you guys have to remember Rocky Marciano was always matched with opponents similar to his size, there was no cruiserweight division at that time so he could have fought at Heavyweight just weighing 180 pounds, Liston on the other hand was much heavy, bulky, stronger..did you guys know that Sonny Liston had the biggest hands in Heavyweight history...I mean the guy had 15 inch fists and an 84 inch reach and he was known for the best reach in history of Heavyweights,...He had a reach that measured between 82-84 inches. On top of that he was thought to have the strongest jab in heavyweight history...I mean Sonny punched so hard in the ring that he frequently knocked opponents through the ropes.

This would be a nightmare for Marciano, who faced guys evenly his size, In my opinion it would be a mis-match[/B]

Rocky Marciano = 5'10

Carmine Vingo - 6'4
Rex Layne- I don't remember his height but it was over 6'3 i think 6'4 or 6'5.
Joe Louis 6'2
Roland Lastarza - 6'0

He wasn't that much worse against taller guys and reach doesn't make a fighter.

and for the last time Marciano had a mix style so how is it a bad style matchup?!

Dempsey 1919
06-07-2006, 07:53 PM
butterfly stop you sound like that guy from the other thread talking about how great Nikolay Valuev is because he's big come on :rolleyes:

Sonny Liston is 100x better than Valuev. :rolleyes:

Dempsey 1919
06-07-2006, 07:54 PM
Rocky Marciano = 5'10

Carmine Vingo - 6'4
Rex Layne- I don't remember his height but it was over 6'3 i think 6'4 or 6'5.
Joe Louis 6'2
Roland Lastarza - 6'0

He wasn't that much worse against taller guys and reach doesn't make a fighter.

and for the last time Marciano had a mix style so how is it a bad style matchup?!

None of those guys had Sonny Liston's punching power. Marciano would be shocked at the force of Liston's punches, for he has never fought someone with that kind of power ever.

Parody
06-07-2006, 08:18 PM
Rocky Marciano = 5'10

Carmine Vingo - 6'4
Rex Layne- I don't remember his height but it was over 6'3 i think 6'4 or 6'5.
Joe Louis 6'2
Roland Lastarza - 6'0

He wasn't that much worse against taller guys and reach doesn't make a fighter.

and for the last time Marciano had a mix style so how is it a bad style matchup?!

Comparing those fighters to Liston is a shame, I understand by your username your a fan but one thing is an opinion, another is a fact, and fact is Liston has more power than any of the guys you mentioned, Louis was very skilled and I rate him at #2 all time Heavyweight, but Joe was way out of his prime, he was out of his prime after the fight with Ezzard Charles, and he fought Marciano a year after that and the fight was still competitive until Marciano dropped him with a left hook and again through the ropes. Sizewise I did'nt just say height, read my post again, Marciano never defended his title against a guy more than 210 lbs....nor probably fought any guy above that weight, It is a bad match-up because Liston would break him down, it would just last longer than the Patterson fight.

Reach does'nt make a fighter? Are you serious man?...REACH IS THE FRIGGIN MAIN THING IN A FIGHTER, Why is Valuev still a champion? :rolleyes:

Brockton Lip
06-07-2006, 11:01 PM
I didn't know Louis was that tall.
1) Reach would not be much of a factor in the fight; it would be fought on the inside.
2) Louis was past his prime but still a top ranked contender and a very formidable fighter for any heavyweight.
3) Marciano had little trouble with Louis. Not to mention he was going easy on Joe because he did not want to injure him.

RockyMarcianofan00
06-07-2006, 11:17 PM
I didn't know Louis was that tall.
1) Reach would not be much of a factor in the fight; it would be fought on the inside.
2) Louis was past his prime but still a top ranked contender and a very formidable fighter for any heavyweight.
3) Marciano had little trouble with Louis. Not to mention he was going easy on Joe because he did not want to injure him.
yea Joe Louis was Marciano's idle and Rocky didn't even want to fight Louis.

Heckler
06-08-2006, 06:59 AM
The shoulder story was a story. There's no evidence, to my knowledge, that anything was wrong with his shoulder at all.

Yeah there is evidence. X-rays and Sonny leaving the hospital.

Yaman
06-08-2006, 08:56 AM
Sonny Liston quit on his stool in the first fight. Not a corner retirement, HE himself wanted to get out of there and not get beat up more.

Southpaw Stinger
06-08-2006, 10:55 AM
Sonny Liston quit on his stool in the first fight. Not a corner retirement, HE himself wanted to get out of there and not get beat up more.

That maybe so but the injury was legit.

Heckler
06-08-2006, 11:23 AM
Sonny Liston quit on his stool in the first fight. Not a corner retirement, HE himself wanted to get out of there and not get beat up more.

Although we don't truely know Sonny's motives i agree. Sonny had a legitimate injury but he was as tough as nails and i doubt he quit as a result of the pain.

hemichromis
06-08-2006, 12:09 PM
Although we don't truely know Sonny's motives i agree. Sonny had a legitimate injury but he was as tough as nails and i doubt he quit as a result of the pain.

he quit because he couldn't get to ali, he could hardly touch him!

Yaman
06-08-2006, 12:39 PM
If he went out there and got ktfo i would've had respect for him. He didn't go out like a warrior, and lacking that warrior instinct would be a problem when you go up against an animal like Marciano.

RockyMarcianofan00
06-08-2006, 03:55 PM
None of those guys had Sonny Liston's punching power. Marciano would be shocked at the force of Liston's punches, for he has never fought someone with that kind of power ever.
I thought I put in that post i wasn't comparing fighters I was just showing the fact Marciano didn't have trouble against taller fighters. Liston would be shocked at Marciano's power because a small fighter rarely out punches a fighter Liston's sized


Sonny Liston is 100x better than Valuev. :rolleyes:
Without a doubt, Who was trying to say Liston wasn't, I was saying you sound like the guy defending Valuev just because he's big because your doing it with Liston's size and reach.




REACH MEANS NOTHING ON THE INSIDE WHICH IS WHERE ROCKY MARCIANO WOULD BE DURING THE FIGHT.

Dempsey 1919
06-08-2006, 11:26 PM
I thought I put in that post i wasn't comparing fighters I was just showing the fact Marciano didn't have trouble against taller fighters. Liston would be shocked at Marciano's power because a small fighter rarely out punches a fighter Liston's sized



Without a doubt, Who was trying to say Liston wasn't, I was saying you sound like the guy defending Valuev just because he's big because your doing it with Liston's size and reach.




REACH MEANS NOTHING ON THE INSIDE WHICH IS WHERE ROCKY MARCIANO WOULD BE DURING THE FIGHT.

No, marciano would be trying to get on the inside, but Liston would keep him away just like Foreman did with Frazier.

RockyMarcianofan00
06-09-2006, 12:49 AM
No, marciano would be trying to get on the inside, but Liston would keep him away just like Foreman did with Frazier.
Liston's not Foreman and Marciano's not Frazier. I could see Liston getting head strong and try to go up to Marciano leading with the jab. Thats when Marciano would slip inside and :boxing:

Yaman
06-09-2006, 05:12 AM
No, marciano would be trying to get on the inside, but Liston would keep him away just like Foreman did with Frazier.


Although, what did help Foreman a lot was his freakish strenght. The way he pushed Frazier back allowed him to set up..wel anything. I dont think Liston would have been able to push marciano back like that. Now way. Liston didn't even do that to some other strong fighters who were under 200.

Brassangel
06-09-2006, 09:43 AM
Liston wasn't exactly notorious for using his jab to keep an opponent away from himself. Usually it was used as a blinder to get inside and pound. Inside is Rocky's game in almost any contest. Liston would score points, move in, and Rocky would fire back. I guarantee Rocky would earn Sonny's respect. The tale of the tape doesn't always determine the outcome. The bigger the challenge for Marciano, the more he stepped up his game.

Heckler
06-09-2006, 09:58 AM
Liston's not Foreman and Marciano's not Frazier. I could see Liston getting head strong and try to go up to Marciano leading with the jab. Thats when Marciano would slip inside and :boxing:

Marciano didn't exactly have great defensive skills, he wadded in from a low crouch with relatively little headmovement and i believe Sonny Liston could take advantage of this. Rocky didn't have the same handspeed, accuracy, and explosivenesss of Joe Frazier that could nullify Sonnys offense. The odds are stacked against Marciano here, but i don't like voting against him... Rocky has true Ko power and a big pair of balls to match.

Brassangel
06-09-2006, 12:50 PM
Hehe...balls.

RockyMarcianofan00
06-09-2006, 08:22 PM
Marciano didn't exactly have great defensive skills, he wadded in from a low crouch with relatively little headmovement and i believe Sonny Liston could take advantage of this. Rocky didn't have the same handspeed, accuracy, and explosivenesss of Joe Frazier that could nullify Sonnys offense. The odds are stacked against Marciano here, but i don't like voting against him... Rocky has true Ko power and a big pair of balls to match.
Marciano had a great inside defense the only place that his defense was flawed was outside fighting but even then he could dodge big shots, The punch that got to him most would be a quick jab but he was usaually able to dodge big shots. The two punches that knocked him down (or atleast Walcott's knockdown) was a a quick tight hook that was thrown towards the inside. Joe Frazier was probably better handspeed and with handspeed came explosiveness, but Rocky was more or less pretty accurate throwing punches. If by explosiveness you mean quick to throw punches then yes Joe has the leg up but if you mean explosivness as in power then Rocky Marciano has the leg up.

Rocky was always moving in his crotch, maybe not as much as Joe Frazier but had a dempsey role type defense in his crotch.

Abe Attell
06-12-2006, 07:08 PM
IMHO Rocky would stop Liston; and here's why...

Rocky throughout his career showed heart, will, and determination to win despite whatever obsticle was in front of him. Liston, though past his best, showed the classic bully mentality when challenged...by Cassius Clay. Once it was evident that Clay was on his way to victory, beating Liston regularly to the punch and really beating him up, Liston quit on his stool, surrendering his World Heavyweight Championship....the same prize he had fought so hard to achieve before Patterson finally went against Cus' advice and gave Sonny a shot....rather than be knocked out. He quit.

Boxing is 90% mental and Rocky's will was stronger than Liston's....plus, Rocky was the type of fighter who was a truth machine, as I like to call them; he'd test your very resolve and keep coming and keep coming until you beat him dead.

Going by the psychological make-up Liston displayed against Clay in fight no 1....and don't give me that "fix" ****.....there is no way he would ever beat Marciano.


Sonny Liston didn't quit when he had his jaw broken and fought till the rest of the fight in such a condition...{can't remember which fight it was}.

that said, I think he was seriously fustrated at under-estimating Ali... how good Ali truly was...with his incredible foot speed, good chin, and speed of hand...for Liston not being able to make up the room to get his shots in, it was probably a mental break-down like Duran vs Leonard II; I am not sure about the shoulder injury, but I could see it being true since a big guy like Liston, who throws hard, would be throwing hard punches at air, not landing on something solid like Ali's body, could cause you to throw out your shoulder.

Dempsey 1919
06-12-2006, 08:53 PM
Sonny Liston didn't quit when he had his jaw broken and fought till the rest of the fight in such a condition...{can't remember which fight it was}.

that said, I think he was seriously fustrated at under-estimating Ali... how good Ali truly was...with his incredible foot speed, good chin, and speed of hand...for Liston not being able to make up the room to get his shots in, it was probably a mental break-down like Duran vs Leonard II; I am not sure about the shoulder injury, but I could see it being true since a big guy like Liston, who throws hard, would be throwing hard punches at air, not landing on something solid like Ali's body, could cause you to throw out your shoulder.

Nice post.

RockyMarcianofan00
06-12-2006, 10:24 PM
Sonny Liston didn't quit when he had his jaw broken and fought till the rest of the fight in such a condition...{can't remember which fight it was}.

that said, I think he was seriously fustrated at under-estimating Ali... how good Ali truly was...with his incredible foot speed, good chin, and speed of hand...for Liston not being able to make up the room to get his shots in, it was probably a mental break-down like Duran vs Leonard II; I am not sure about the shoulder injury, but I could see it being true since a big guy like Liston, who throws hard, would be throwing hard punches at air, not landing on something solid like Ali's body, could cause you to throw out your shoulder.
Same thing I keep saying in a sense, Liston didn't quit on his stool. I think that was the first time in his career he did that. Liston, as most of the American people, expected a young, niave, trash talking boxer named Cassius Clay to go into the ring that night and get schooled. People (for the most part) never saw Cassius Clay fight, so when he started showing up just trash talking, calling Liston a big bear people thought the guy was nuts. They didn't think he could fight they thought he could just talk. http://www.africanamericans.com/images2/MuhammadAli_SonnyListon_Weighin.jpg

They fully expected him to go in there that night and just go straight at Liston. He surprised everyone. Went in on his toes, danced, and won. Thats why he said stuff like "I told you I'm the Greatest and you didn't believe me".
http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/1760000/images/_1760196_v_liston_300_as.jpg

Fact I'm trying to make is Liston never quit on his stool he only quit against Ali who was probably the best fighter he faced during his career. Of course the only big names he really fought Floyd Patterson and Cleavland Williams
and if you consider
Zora Folley and Chuck Wepner big names then he fought these 4.

Abe Attell
06-12-2006, 10:51 PM
Butterfly1964: your gif is a perfect example how fustrating it could be for a fighter; can you just imagine the embarrassment a fighter feels

http://www.recruitaarontorrez.com/images/alivsterrel.gif

I could imagine the fighters that fought Ali before his exile, seeing how he wasn't the same fighter after the layoff, probably thought to themselves, "I wish I could fight the S.O.B. now."



Going back to the Liston talk...The end probably came after the supposed blinding of Ali, when Ali couldn't see and wasn't moving around like he was early, causing Ali to be a "sitting duck" for Liston's power shots, but Sonny couldn't knock him down, even though he landed some terrible shots...what Liston didn't know, what most people didn't know, was that Ali could take incredible amounts of punishment, both to the head, and to the body.

People who were afraid for Ali to go in against Foreman seemed to over-look this fight, but I do think this is one of the reasons that Ali had confidence going into the fight with Foreman: if he could take Liston's power, being blind, why couldn't he take George's power, seeing it 10 miles coming?

Dempsey 1919
06-12-2006, 11:13 PM
Same thing I keep saying in a sense, Liston didn't quit on his stool. I think that was the first time in his career he did that. Liston, as most of the American people, expected a young, niave, trash talking boxer named Cassius Clay to go into the ring that night and get schooled. People (for the most part) never saw Cassius Clay fight, so when he started showing up just trash talking, calling Liston a big bear people thought the guy was nuts. They didn't think he could fight they thought he could just talk. http://www.africanamericans.com/images2/MuhammadAli_SonnyListon_Weighin.jpg

They fully expected him to go in there that night and just go straight at Liston. He surprised everyone. Went in on his toes, danced, and won. Thats why he said stuff like "I told you I'm the Greatest and you didn't believe me".
http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/1760000/images/_1760196_v_liston_300_as.jpg

Fact I'm trying to make is Liston never quit on his stool he only quit against Ali who was probably the best fighter he faced during his career. Of course the only big names he really fought Floyd Patterson and Cleavland Williams
and if you consider
Zora Folley and Chuck Wepner big names then he fought these 4.

Also in 1963, the close decision aginst Doug Jones and the almost upset by Henry Cooper really made people think he was a joke, so that had a lot to do with Liston-Clay I being one of the greatest upsets.

Heckler
06-13-2006, 09:03 AM
Also in 1963, the close decision aginst Doug Jones and the almost upset by Henry Cooper really made people think he was a joke, so that had a lot to do with Liston-Clay I being one of the greatest upsets.

Ali always performed best when pushed to the edge of a cliff.

SABBATH
06-14-2006, 08:46 AM
Liston wasn't exactly notorious for using his jab to keep an opponent away from himself. Usually it was used as a blinder to get inside and pound. Inside is Rocky's game in almost any contest. Liston would score points, move in, and Rocky would fire back. I guarantee Rocky would earn Sonny's respect. The tale of the tape doesn't always determine the outcome. The bigger the challenge for Marciano, the more he stepped up his game.Liston had a freakishly long 84' inch reach and kept guys at bay with it. It was a jackhammer and he would often double it and follow through with a long right hand. It was not a blinder, it was possibly his best weapon, he threw it with great regularity and he is generally recognized today as having the hardest jab of any of the heavyweight champions. Liston was not known particularly as an infighter although when he had a guy hurt he got closer and shortened his hooks up.

Liston's style is often gauged by the first Ali fight where he chased Ali around the ring. That wasn't exactly Liston's style. Liston was usually much more patient than that fight would indicate.

Liston was more Joe Louis (boxer/puncher) than he was Frazier or Tyson (aggressive swarmer). Even the Patterson fights show this despite them being first round KO's.

Liston didn't tear after his opponents looking for the early stoppage. He fought as a boxer but his power ultimately would hurt his opponent which is when he would go for the kill. Again not unlike Joe Louis who was Liston's idol.

A word about Liston-Marciano. Marciano was quoted when Liston was champion as saying he would not have wanted to fight Liston.

Milt Bailey who was a longtime cornerman for both Liston and Frazier said Liston would have beaten Frazier had they fought in their primes.

Southpaw Stinger
06-14-2006, 11:04 AM
A word about Liston-Marciano. Marciano was quoted when Liston was champion as saying he would not have wanted to fight Liston.

Milt Bailey who was a longtime cornerman for both Liston and Frazier said Liston would have beaten Frazier had they fought in their primes.

Interesting stuff.

Brassangel
06-14-2006, 01:21 PM
Liston was fairly patient before he fought Clay, unfortunately patience doesn't pose much of a virtue against Rocky Marciano. Rocky will be able to punch better in the later rounds than someone like Liston who, again, wasn't notorious for his longevity. Liston had freakishly long arms, but he didn't do it to keep people away, he simply had a pounding jab. I also remember a fight from 1958 (can't remember who it was against) where it seemed like a jab was the only punch Liston threw for 6 rounds or so. Following a jab with a right hand is pretty elementary, by the way. So yes, he did use the jab. Just because it was long, doesn't mean that he was trying to keep people away with it. Also, he really didn't have to put it to use against a guy who crowded like Marciano. This would really be a far more interesting style matchup than most of the people are giving it credit for. It would be difficult for him to "jackhammer" his jab home against a guy who hugged in close like Marciano did; especially a guy as tough as he was to keep away from. Then again, Liston was a great champion as well, so he may be able to pull it off.

By the way, "So and so said..." doesn't really mean anything. I'm basically walking the line between both sides of the coin here on who to go with. When it comes to Liston and Ali, I swear SABBATH, you are butterfly with better grammar.

SABBATH
06-14-2006, 04:20 PM
Liston was fairly patient before he fought Clay, unfortunately patience doesn't pose much of a virtue against Rocky Marciano. Rocky will be able to punch better in the later rounds than someone like Liston who, again, wasn't notorious for his longevity. Liston had freakishly long arms, but he didn't do it to keep people away, he simply had a pounding jab. I also remember a fight from 1958 (can't remember who it was against) where it seemed like a jab was the only punch Liston threw for 6 rounds or so. Following a jab with a right hand is pretty elementary, by the way. So yes, he did use the jab. Just because it was long, doesn't mean that he was trying to keep people away with it. Also, he really didn't have to put it to use against a guy who crowded like Marciano. This would really be a far more interesting style matchup than most of the people are giving it credit for. It would be difficult for him to "jackhammer" his jab home against a guy who hugged in close like Marciano did; especially a guy as tough as he was to keep away from. Then again, Liston was a great champion as well, so he may be able to pull it off.

By the way, "So and so said..." doesn't really mean anything. I'm basically walking the line between both sides of the coin here on who to go with. When it comes to Liston and Ali, I swear SABBATH, you are butterfly with better grammar.Your analogies and breakdowns of fighting styles are humorous as are your attempts to take immature swipes any time I post a difference of opinion. It does nothing more than demonstrate your own insecurity and lack of confidence. Go back to ESB and your Tyson is God woulda, coulda, shoulda, mighta postings and stop polluting these threads with antagonistic babble everytime you run across anyone that sees through your transparent lack of knowledge. If you're not willing to do your homework and research then put a lid on it.

As for "so and so said doesn't really mean anything" that's why you will never learn anything pertaining to boxing. The words of Milt Bailey who assisted in the training and was a cornerman for both Liston and Frazier would certainly carry more insightful knowledge that anything a dream living fairy tale writer like yourself could ever hope to.

RockyMarcianofan00
06-14-2006, 05:01 PM
Liston had a freakishly long 84' inch reach and kept guys at bay with it. It was a jackhammer and he would often double it and follow through with a long right hand. It was not a blinder, it was possibly his best weapon, he threw it with great regularity and he is generally recognized today as having the hardest jab of any of the heavyweight champions. Liston was not known particularly as an infighter although when he had a guy hurt he got closer and shortened his hooks up.

Liston's style is often gauged by the first Ali fight where he chased Ali around the ring. That wasn't exactly Liston's style. Liston was usually much more patient than that fight would indicate.

Liston was more Joe Louis (boxer/puncher) than he was Frazier or Tyson (aggressive swarmer). Even the Patterson fights show this despite them being first round KO's.

Liston didn't tear after his opponents looking for the early stoppage. He fought as a boxer but his power ultimately would hurt his opponent which is when he would go for the kill. Again not unlike Joe Louis who was Liston's idol.

A word about Liston-Marciano. Marciano was quoted when Liston was champion as saying he would not have wanted to fight Liston.

Milt Bailey who was a longtime cornerman for both Liston and Frazier said Liston would have beaten Frazier had they fought in their primes.
I've never read this- not to say its wrong but quite the contrary Marciano was preparing to come out of retirement to fight Liston but decided not to because he didn't want Liston to have the privildge of having his (Marciano's) name on Liston's record.- Like Louis had done with Marciano.

SABBATH
06-14-2006, 06:43 PM
I've never read this- not to say its wrong but quite the contrary Marciano was preparing to come out of retirement to fight Liston but decided not to because he didn't want Liston to have the privildge of having his (Marciano's) name on Liston's record.- Like Louis had done with Marciano.Actually, Marciano was going to come out of retirement and fight Ingemar Johannson who Rock held in low regard. Marciano actually began training then scrapped the idea when he realized how much work he would need to do to get in fighting shape. I don't believe he made a formal announcement but he did start training according to his biography. I've researched quite a bit of Marciano and I've never heard that he wanted to come out of retirememnt to fight Liston. If it was to fight Liston for the title then Marciano would have been retired for 8 years and would have been 40, an unlikely scenario.

Brassangel
06-14-2006, 08:59 PM
I do plenty of research, it's the only reason I enjoy watching your cut-and-paste, rub oil on the 70's comments. I'll admit, you dig pretty deep into a lot of your findings, SABBATH. While you like to claim that I take immature swipes at you, it's rather contradictory given that you immediately follow such a claim with rediculous accusations about my stand(s) on Tyson, and fighting styles. Seeing as how styles are subject to observational analysis, I'm probably not the only one who views things differently than you on multiple subjects. I don't intend to grapple with you about it, but you seem to take aim at my posts (at least when they're short), grab one line, and chew on it like you're the resident authority on boxing knowledge. That's in poor taste and radiates immaturity; especially given your arrogance in stating (on more than one occassion) that you are above the other members of this site.

Since I'm sure the other readers would like this to be about Liston vs. Marciano, I'll take a bow and return to the subject proper. Let's see if you actually read this whole post instead of quoting it and attacking it. I suppose copy-and-paste is more your style.

My claims are made evident by the fact that you rarely state something of your own observation, and instead post what somebody else said at one time. If we aren't allowed our own opinions, educated, informed, or simply personal, what's the point of being permitted to post when you're just going to jump in with some guy's quote that differs from a viewer's take? I'll see you in future posts.

Hopefully, this will stop; then again, you'll probably assume you need to have the last word...which will likely be a quote from someone else.

SABBATH
06-14-2006, 09:44 PM
I do plenty of research, it's the only reason I enjoy watching your cut-and-paste, rub oil on the 70's comments. I'll admit, you dig pretty deep into a lot of your findings, SABBATH. While you like to claim that I take immature swipes at you, it's rather contradictory given that you immediately follow such a claim with rediculous accusations about my stand(s) on Tyson, and fighting styles. Seeing as how styles are subject to observational analysis, I'm probably not the only one who views things differently than you on multiple subjects. I don't intend to grapple with you about it, but you seem to take aim at my posts (at least when they're short), grab one line, and chew on it like you're the resident authority on boxing knowledge. That's in poor taste and radiates immaturity; especially given your arrogance in stating (on more than one occassion) that you are above the other members of this site.

Since I'm sure the other readers would like this to be about Liston vs. Marciano, I'll take a bow and return to the subject proper. Let's see if you actually read this whole post instead of quoting it and attacking it. I suppose copy-and-paste is more your style.

My claims are made evident by the fact that you rarely state something of your own observation, and instead post what somebody else said at one time. If we aren't allowed our own opinions, educated, informed, or simply personal, what's the point of being permitted to post when you're just going to jump in with some guy's quote that differs from a viewer's take? I'll see you in future posts.

Hopefully, this will stop; then again, you'll probably assume you need to have the last word...which will likely be a quote from someone else.You could save yourself alot of typing time by realizing I don't read your poorly written uneducated drivel. I save my conversations for those who actually know and understand boxing.

Dempsey 1919
06-14-2006, 10:01 PM
Liston had a freakishly long 84' inch reach and kept guys at bay with it. It was a jackhammer and he would often double it and follow through with a long right hand. It was not a blinder, it was possibly his best weapon, he threw it with great regularity and he is generally recognized today as having the hardest jab of any of the heavyweight champions. Liston was not known particularly as an infighter although when he had a guy hurt he got closer and shortened his hooks up.

Liston's style is often gauged by the first Ali fight where he chased Ali around the ring. That wasn't exactly Liston's style. Liston was usually much more patient than that fight would indicate.

Liston was more Joe Louis (boxer/puncher) than he was Frazier or Tyson (aggressive swarmer). Even the Patterson fights show this despite them being first round KO's.

Liston didn't tear after his opponents looking for the early stoppage. He fought as a boxer but his power ultimately would hurt his opponent which is when he would go for the kill. Again not unlike Joe Louis who was Liston's idol.

A word about Liston-Marciano. Marciano was quoted when Liston was champion as saying he would not have wanted to fight Liston.

Milt Bailey who was a longtime cornerman for both Liston and Frazier said Liston would have beaten Frazier had they fought in their primes.

Thank you, Sabbath. Mostly everything you said about Liston are things I have said in the past, but they didn't believe me. They watch one fight (the clay fight) and they think that Liston's a joke. Then why don't ya'll think Foreman's a joke, huh? Liston deserves just as much credit as he gets. Watch Liston's rematch against Bert Whitehurst and his fight against Eddie Machen and you will see that Liston could box very well. He was like Joe Louis, only bigger and stronger (although a might slower).

Now do ya'll believe me? :rolleyes:

RockyMarcianofan00
06-14-2006, 11:01 PM
Thank you, Sabbath. Mostly everything you said about Liston are things I have said in the past, but they didn't believe me. They watch one fight (the clay fight) and they think that Liston's a joke. Then why don't ya'll think Foreman's a joke, huh? Liston deserves just as much credit as he gets. Watch Liston's rematch against Bert Whitehurst and his fight against Eddie Machen and you will see that Liston could box very well. He was like Joe Louis, only bigger and stronger (although a might slower).

Now do ya'll believe me? :rolleyes:
I've seen more then just the clay fight, I've seen Liston against Patterson, and a few other guys that Yogi put up for download in his thread... I rate him as I always have good, but very overrated by many.

Brassangel
06-14-2006, 11:23 PM
Originally Posted by SABBATH
You could save yourself alot of typing time by realizing I don't read your poorly written uneducated drivel. I save my conversations for those who actually know and understand boxing.

Obviously, since you reply to my posts nearly every time. Perhaps it's a matter of a short attention span, similar to that of a junior high schooler. I suppose that explains why you won't speak for yourself; but from another point of view instead. Why should you have to read everything to learn when you can just quote what's written down? You've found a nice shortcut in the system...good for you!

@butterfly:

I think that Liston's great. His career, at least in my book, isn't based upon his matches with Clay, as he was clearly under-prepared, and beyond his best years in terms of heart. That, and Clay was extremely slippery in those days.

I believe that we have two fairly slow moving targets, with decent hand speed when it was necessary. Liston was a more skilled boxer, and a fine physical specimen, while Marciano had enormous heart, determination, and stamina. Ironically, many of the "intelligent" ones in here would say that Liston's physical gifts and boxing skills would overcome Marciano, but they wouldn't say so in other head-to-head scenarios.

I think it would be a brawl as Liston wouldn't be able to put Rocky away early, but Rocky would have some trouble getting to Sonny at first. Marciano could take a hefty beating, but he probably never put up with a puncher like Sonny. Equally, Liston probably never had to deal with someone who could take it like the Rock, or who would crowd him all night long.

It's a good one...one I'd pay to see.

Brassangel
06-14-2006, 11:28 PM
One thing I will totally concede for Liston, however, is that he'd probably shock Marciano, or even knock him down a few times. Rocky would probably rethink his approach after a few paws from the Bear.

SABBATH
06-15-2006, 01:16 AM
I've seen more then just the clay fight, I've seen Liston against Patterson, and a few other guys that Yogi put up for download in his thread... I rate him as I always have good, but very overrated by many.I don't think Liston is overrated by many at all unless he's #1, #2 or #3. If anything, he's too often dismissed based on losing twice to Ali.

Ali is generally regarded as a top 2 ATG heavyweight so Liston's ATG ranking should not suffer as a result of these losses especially when Ali fought one of his career defining best ever fights against Sonny.

Now look at Liston's career. He lost a decision early in his career (8th fight)against Marty Marshall fighting with a broken jaw, a loss he avenged twice by KO and 10 round shut-out.

Liston won 28 fights in a row with 23 KO's after the Marshall fight with many of those fights coming against the top fighters of the time like Eddie Machen, Roy Harris, Nino Valdes, Cleveland Williams (twice), Mike Dejohn, Zora Folley and Floyd Patterson (twice). Only Machen went the distance while the rest were KO'd in 6 rounds or less. Liston defeated all of the top heavyweights of that era with the exception of Harold Johnson who was scheduled to fight Liston in 1956 but backed out of the fight due to injury.

Also, keep in mind that Floyd Patterson ducked Liston who was the #1 condender and considered the best heavyweight in the world from from 1959-62. Liston entered the top 10 rankings at #5 in 1958 then jumped to #1 the following year. Had Patterson fought Sonny in the late 50's it's likely Floyd would have been destroyed as he eventually was in 1962. The ratings up until 1964 are littered with Liston victims, so it's likely that Sonny would have reigned at least 5 years had he gotten his shot as he should have in 1959.

After losing to Ali, Liston went 15-1 with 14 KO's, his only loss coming to ranked contender Leotis Martin when he was at the very least 37 years of age.

Ali was the only fighter to beat Liston in 15 years! (1954-69)

Liston was a physical freak. A shade over 6 feet tall but an 84 inch reach attached to fists that had the biggest circumference of any previous heavyweight champion. Liston also posessed brute strength and was never outmuscled.

Now watch him on film. Two fisted KO power at long or short range, excellent killer instinct, respectable body puncher and a chin that saw him only get floored 3 times in 17 years and 54 fights. Liston fought in a classic fighting stance and was a patient boxer/puncher with good technical defensive ability particularly slipping jabs and ducking power shots. Liston's jab is generally regarded as the hardest amongst heavyweight champs.

Liston's credentials stand on their own and he is more than worthy of a top 10 rating and unless he's rated in the top 3 which I've never seen him at I wouldn't consider him overrated at any spot from #4 down.

Brassangel
06-15-2006, 12:16 PM
Originally Posted by SABBATH
I don't think Liston is overrated by many at all unless he's #1, #2 or #3. If anything, he's too often dismissed based on losing twice to Ali.

Ali is generally regarded as a top 2 ATG heavyweight so Liston's ATG ranking should not suffer as a result of these losses especially when Ali fought one of his career defining best ever fights against Sonny.

Now look at Liston's career. He lost a decision early in his career (8th fight)against Marty Marshall fighting with a broken jaw, a loss he avenged twice by KO and 10 round shut-out.

Liston won 28 fights in a row with 23 KO's after the Marshall fight with many of those fights coming against the top fighters of the time like Eddie Machen, Roy Harris, Nino Valdes, Cleveland Williams (twice), Mike Dejohn, Zora Folley and Floyd Patterson (twice). Only Machen went the distance while the rest were KO'd in 6 rounds or less. Liston defeated all of the top heavyweights of that era with the exception of Harold Johnson who was scheduled to fight Liston in 1956 but backed out of the fight due to injury.

Also, keep in mind that Floyd Patterson ducked Liston who was the #1 condender and considered the best heavyweight in the world from from 1959-62. Liston entered the top 10 rankings at #5 in 1958 then jumped to #1 the following year. Had Patterson fought Sonny in the late 50's it's likely Floyd would have been destroyed as he eventually was in 1962. The ratings up until 1964 are littered with Liston victims, so it's likely that Sonny would have reigned at least 5 years had he gotten his shot as he should have in 1959.

After losing to Ali, Liston went 15-1 with 14 KO's, his only loss coming to ranked contender Leotis Martin when he was at the very least 37 years of age.

Ali was the only fighter to beat Liston in 15 years! (1954-69)

Liston was a physical freak. A shade over 6 feet tall but an 84 inch reach attached to fists that had the biggest circumference of any previous heavyweight champion. Liston also posessed brute strength and was never outmuscled.

Now watch him on film. Two fisted KO power at long or short range, excellent killer instinct, respectable body puncher and a chin that saw him only get floored 3 times in 17 years and 54 fights. Liston fought in a classic fighting stance and was a patient boxer/puncher with good technical defensive ability particularly slipping jabs and ducking power shots. Liston's jab is generally regarded as the hardest amongst heavyweight champs.

Liston's credentials stand on their own and he is more than worthy of a top 10 rating and unless he's rated in the top 3 which I've never seen him at I wouldn't consider him overrated at any spot from #4 down.

Good post.

Yaman
06-15-2006, 12:38 PM
Good post.

Good post, Lots of points and good k for you!!

RockyMarcianofan00
06-15-2006, 02:00 PM
I don't think Liston is overrated by many at all unless he's #1, #2 or #3. If anything, he's too often dismissed based on losing twice to Ali.

Thats what I'm talking about

SABBATH
06-15-2006, 03:07 PM
Thats what I'm talking aboutHere are the most recent IBRO rating which ranks Liston at #9. The highest I have seen a credible boxing historian rate Liston is at #3 by Herbert Goldman in 1997 and #4 by Frank Lotierzo a few years ago. Other than those two guys most historians rate Liston around 9th or 10th. Personally I rate Liston somewhere between 4th-7th.

IBRO Member Poll


Joe Louis
Muhammad Ali
Jack Johnson
Jack Dempsey
Rocky Marciano
Larry Holmes
James Jeffries
George Foreman
Sonny Liston
Joe Frazier
Herbert Goldman

Muhammad Ali
Joe Louis
Sonny Liston
Mike Tyson
Larry Holmes
Jack Johnson
Jack Dempsey
George Foreman
Rocky Marciano
Joe Frazier
Frank Lotierzo ( from the Joe Louis era onwards)


Muhammad Ali
Joe Louis
George Foreman
Sonny Liston
Joe Frazier
Rocky Marciano
Larry Holmes
Evander Holyfield
Lennox Lewis
Mike Tyson

RockyMarcianofan00
06-15-2006, 03:14 PM
Sonny Liston at 6 or below is good and I definitely think Sonny Liston should be ahead of Jack Johnson..Marciano at 6 or better is decent, and Dempsey at 7 or better is good...Joe Louis should always be in the number 1 or 2 position...this is my opinion..

number6
06-15-2006, 04:51 PM
I don't think Liston is overrated by many at all unless he's #1, #2 or #3. If anything, he's too often dismissed based on losing twice to Ali.

Ali is generally regarded as a top 2 ATG heavyweight so Liston's ATG ranking should not suffer as a result of these losses especially when Ali fought one of his career defining best ever fights against Sonny.

Now look at Liston's career. He lost a decision early in his career (8th fight)against Marty Marshall fighting with a broken jaw, a loss he avenged twice by KO and 10 round shut-out.

Liston won 28 fights in a row with 23 KO's after the Marshall fight with many of those fights coming against the top fighters of the time like Eddie Machen, Roy Harris, Nino Valdes, Cleveland Williams (twice), Mike Dejohn, Zora Folley and Floyd Patterson (twice). Only Machen went the distance while the rest were KO'd in 6 rounds or less. Liston defeated all of the top heavyweights of that era with the exception of Harold Johnson who was scheduled to fight Liston in 1956 but backed out of the fight due to injury.

Also, keep in mind that Floyd Patterson ducked Liston who was the #1 condender and considered the best heavyweight in the world from from 1959-62. Liston entered the top 10 rankings at #5 in 1958 then jumped to #1 the following year. Had Patterson fought Sonny in the late 50's it's likely Floyd would have been destroyed as he eventually was in 1962. The ratings up until 1964 are littered with Liston victims, so it's likely that Sonny would have reigned at least 5 years had he gotten his shot as he should have in 1959.

After losing to Ali, Liston went 15-1 with 14 KO's, his only loss coming to ranked contender Leotis Martin when he was at the very least 37 years of age.

Ali was the only fighter to beat Liston in 15 years! (1954-69)

Liston was a physical freak. A shade over 6 feet tall but an 84 inch reach attached to fists that had the biggest circumference of any previous heavyweight champion. Liston also posessed brute strength and was never outmuscled.

Now watch him on film. Two fisted KO power at long or short range, excellent killer instinct, respectable body puncher and a chin that saw him only get floored 3 times in 17 years and 54 fights. Liston fought in a classic fighting stance and was a patient boxer/puncher with good technical defensive ability particularly slipping jabs and ducking power shots. Liston's jab is generally regarded as the hardest amongst heavyweight champs.

Liston's credentials stand on their own and he is more than worthy of a top 10 rating and unless he's rated in the top 3 which I've never seen him at I wouldn't consider him overrated at any spot from #4 down.
This is a top post

Southpaw Stinger
06-15-2006, 05:05 PM
Sonny Liston at 6 or below is good and I definitely think Sonny Liston should be ahead of Jack Johnson..Marciano at 6 or better is decent, and Dempsey at 7 or better is good...Joe Louis should always be in the number 1 or 2 position...this is my opinion..

I don't see why anyone would put Johnson in the top 10..

SABBATH
06-15-2006, 05:16 PM
I don't see why anyone would put Johnson in the top 10..Johnson is still regarded in high esteem by many historians but he did mysteriously move up in the IBRO ratings after the "Unforgiveable Blackness" Ken Burns documentary.

Personally Jack Johnson has always fascinated me and I have collected and studied his fights as well as read many books (including his autobiography) periodical newspaper accounts etc...for close to 30 years. I am a fan but objectively speaking I do not rate him in my top 10.

RockyMarcianofan00
06-15-2006, 06:00 PM
He's more a historic figure then a top notch fighter. I don't consider him top10, I can see at least 5 fighters that are more deserving..

Brassangel
06-15-2006, 11:54 PM
I don't know if I'd place Johnson in the top 10 anymore either. Then again, those lists are subject to change.

Originally Posted by SABBATH
Frank Lotierzo ( from the Joe Louis era onwards)

Muhammad Ali
Joe Louis
George Foreman
Sonny Liston
Joe Frazier
Rocky Marciano
Larry Holmes
Evander Holyfield
Lennox Lewis
Mike Tyson

This is an interesting way to view the list: "...from Joe Louis era onwards...". Joe Louis really did change the face of the sport; and following him, there came a slew of very style-intensive fighters. The boxers started getting heavier (on average), and the field became deeper and deeper. Maybe there should be a barrier in there somewhere. Although I think Larry Holmes would be good in any era, I find it strange that on the Louis-forward list he's lower than he was anywhere else. :confused: