View Full Version : Ali-Williams (1966)


Dempsey 1919
06-01-2006, 10:21 PM
I was going through my own personal boxing video library, and I came across the Ali-Williams fight, a fight I thought I didn't even have. Well, I popped it in, and I watched it. I haven't seen the fight in it's entirety for about a couple of years, and I noticed that Ali didn't knock him out! He won on a TKO. All this time I thought Ali knocked the Big Cat out cold, and he just kept knocking him down, and the ref stopped it. It just amazing the things one can find out. I learn something new everyday, eh?

http://www.ideageneration.co.uk/press%20office/Ali_exhibition/NEW%20PORTRAIT%20WEB%20JPGS/exclusivies/ALI-Williams-MEM33.jpg

sleazyfellow
06-01-2006, 10:24 PM
u can be koed n still get up, cleveland was wobbly big time after the first knockdown, u wanted ali to kill him in the ring or what?

hellfire508
06-02-2006, 01:06 AM
Despite Williams being shot - literally... it is still in my eyes the single best performance by any fighter in a fight.

Heckler
06-02-2006, 03:11 AM
Cleveland Williams was still a decent opponent, coming off a winning streak i believe. Watch Williams in the fight against Ali and ask yourself Would a prime Williams be able to do much better? Were there any oppurtunities that this version of Williams wasn't able to take advantage of, but in his prime he could've and in doing so produce a significantly better performance? I don't know if he could.

Ali looked sharpest in that fight against Williams. No clowning, he was well prepared and he went out there with the intention of putting Williams on the canvas ASAP to reduce the risk of Williams being seriously hurt. His performances in later matches in his pre-layoff career against Folley, Terell etc although still impressive were probably adversely affected by his legal battles and the political issues that were surrounding him and really starting to heat up at the time.

Dempsey 1919
06-02-2006, 03:40 AM
Cleveland Williams was still a decent opponent, coming off a winning streak i believe. Watch Williams in the fight against Ali and ask yourself Would a prime Williams be able to do much better? Were there any oppurtunities that this version of Williams wasn't able to take advantage of, but in his prime he could've and in doing so produce a significantly better performance? I don't know if he could.

Ali looked sharpest in that fight against Williams. No clowning, he was well prepared and he went out there with the intention of putting Williams on the canvas ASAP to reduce the risk of Williams being seriously hurt. His performances in later matches in his pre-layoff career against Folley, Terell etc although still impressive were probably adversely affected by his legal battles and the political issues that were surrounding him and really starting to heat up at the time.

Ali was still facing legal troubles at the time of the Williams fight, but he could have made his other fights like this. hye could have knocked out patterson and terell if he wanted to, and folley IMO was a very impressive performance as well.

Yaman
06-02-2006, 04:31 AM
So he wanted to knock him out early because he didn't wanna hurt him badly? Thats respectfull in a way.

SABBATH
06-02-2006, 01:30 PM
I was going through my own personal boxing video library, and I came across the Ali-Williams fight, a fight I thought I didn't even have. Well, I popped it in, and I watched it. I haven't seen the fight in it's entirety for about a couple of years, and I noticed that Ali didn't knock him out! He won on a TKO. All this time I thought Ali knocked the Big Cat out cold, and he just kept knocking him down, and the ref stopped it. It just amazing the things one can find out. I learn something new everyday, eh?
Butterfly,

The first right hand that Ali dropped Williams with was almost the same shot he floored Liston with. Ali while moving backwards hits Williams with a right on the chin snapping it downwards. Williams gets pole axed. It was a sharp right on the button thrown with quickness and timing.

Compare it to the Liston knockdown (watch it in slow motion as Liston's head gets snapped downwards) and decide if you still think it's a phantom punch.

Brassangel
06-02-2006, 01:38 PM
When someone is caught off guard by a fast, trained punch, it will hurt. It may even scramble one's eggs. While I am a firm believer that Sonny quit in that fight, Ali did hit him hard before Liston made the decision to give up. The punch against Williams was probably a little bit more dynamic than the previous punch mentioned above.

SABBATH
06-02-2006, 01:59 PM
When someone is caught off guard by a fast, trained punch, it will hurt. It may even scramble one's eggs. While I am a firm believer that Sonny quit in that fight, Ali did hit him hard before Liston made the decision to give up. The punch against Williams was probably a little bit more dynamic than the previous punch mentioned above.If you watch Liston's head snap, you can see it was no phantom punch. The elasticity in Liston's knees also gives. It was a legit knockdown but Liston could have gotten up in time if Ali had went to a corner.

Watch for yourself.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=5T_dHRLn5rM&search=sonny%20liston

Yaman
06-02-2006, 02:19 PM
I've always said that the punch was real and Liston got KO'd. Yeah Butterfly1964.

sleazyfellow
06-02-2006, 03:37 PM
it was real in the sense it could knock u down, not real beleivable for a ko in that fight though, liston could take sum good punches, he showed that before.

SABBATH
06-02-2006, 03:49 PM
If Ali had a conventional style he would never have landed that punch on Liston. Conventional fundamentals would teach parrying Liston's jab with his right glove then countering with his own jab.

The Liston knockdown in slow motion is freakish in how quick Ali's reflexes, timing and punching accuracy were. As Liston begins throwing the jab Ali whose hands are low is already reacting. When Liston's jab fully extends it falls short hitting Ali's shoulder (remember Liston had a longer reach) slightly out of range before Ali moves in range and connects right on the button. A lightning quick counterpunch for any fighter to land much less a heavyweight.

Ali's unconventional "lack of basic boxing fundamentals" was his strength not his weakness. It allowed him to do things other fighters couldn't and give opponents things they had never seen before. If Ali used a standard conventional fighting style he would never have had the success he did.

There's no way to train yourself for what he does. The moves, the speed, the punches and the way he changes style every time you think you got him figured. The right hands Ali hit me with just had no business landing but they did. They came from nowhere. Many times he was in the wrong position but he hit me anyway. I've never seen anyone who could do that. The knockdown punch was so fast that I never saw it. He has lots of snap, and when the punches land they dizzy your head; they fuzz up your mind. He's smart. The trickiest fighter I've seen. He's had twenty-nine fights and acts like he's had a hundred. He could write the book on boxing, and anyone that fights him should be made to read it.<O:p

- Zora Folley<O:p

Heckler
06-02-2006, 06:28 PM
Its quite possible that the right hand dropped Sonny legitimately.... if this was the case im pretty sure Sonny gave up on the canvas, he could of got up before the 10 count was completed.

SABBATH
06-02-2006, 06:54 PM
Its quite possible that the right hand dropped Sonny legitimately.... if this was the case im pretty sure Sonny gave up on the canvas, he could of got up before the 10 count was completed.Take it for what it was. A sharp right hand counter on the chin which took Liston's knees out, enough for him to drop to the canvas. The right hand counter was similar in placement to Archie Moore's right hand on Marciano's chin which dropped the Rock. A knockdown punch doesn't necessarily have to be loaded and tourque a fighters head around sending beads of sweat flying. It wasn't the case with Ali dropping Liston or Moore dropping Marciano. Check out Liston's one punch KO of Albert Westphal. A perfect right hand on the sweet spot of the chin and Westphal goes down like he was shot.

Had Ali went immediately to a corner Liston would have gotten right back up again. The problem was Ali kept standing over him telling him to get up and acting like he was about to hit Liston on the way up. In retrospect it was the right thing for Liston to do and referee Walcott made the wrong decision in awarding Ali a KO victory as the count is not supposed to start until the fighter goes to a neutral corner.

There were alot of factors confusing matters. A proposed in the ring sniper assisination of Ali (retalliation the for Malcolm X murder), Liston's underworld connections, a punch that at regular speed didn't look like it landed, the suspicious quitting on his stool in the first fight, and the fact that Liston who had a good chin was floored so quickly and easily.

Ali was looked at with suspicion early in his career, especially when he was accurately predicting the rounds his opponents would be stopped. The Liston fights and theories compounded these suspicions.

catskills23
06-02-2006, 07:16 PM
If you watch Liston's head snap, you can see it was no phantom punch. The elasticity in Liston's knees also gives. It was a legit knockdown but Liston could have gotten up in time if Ali had went to a corner.

Watch for yourself.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=5T_dHRLn5rM&search=sonny%20liston


sabbath you are the biggest tyson hater and the biggest ali nut licker of all time . Ali knocked out liston with a legit punch buckled his knee what bull**** if that was a legit knockout then how come there is so much speculation about taking a dive because he did . Ali knocked down cleveland willams loads of time so what willams always had a glass chin and was litreally shot and had severed nerves in his leg . Ali could of knocked down floyd patterson if he wanted to yeah right ali said himself that he tried to knock out patterson but he couldnt and patterson had oneof the worst chins . Ye ali nuthuggers are trying to make out that ali had power . Ali didnt have any power according to doug jones he couldnt crack a ****in egg.

Heckler
06-02-2006, 07:36 PM
According to doug jones... according to George Foreman 'Ali was one of the hardest punchers i ever faced, hes deceptive.. catches you with that lead right when you walk in' Ali said both BEFORE and AFTER the patterson fight he's not going to knock him out he's going to punish him, the same applies to the Terell fight. Cleveland Williams was no longer at his physical peak, but that does not compromise the integrity of his jaw.

SABBATH
06-02-2006, 07:37 PM
sabbath you are the biggest tyson hater and the biggest ali nut licker of all time . Ali knocked out liston with a legit punch buckled his knee what bull**** if that was a legit knockout then how come there is so much speculation about taking a dive because he did . You can spare yourself the poorly articulated response by actually comprehending what I wrote. I said KNOCKDOWN not KNOCKOUT dumbass.

"Ali knocked me down with a sharp punch. I was down but not hurt, but I looked up and saw Ali standing over me. Now there is no way to get up from the canvas that you are not exposed to a great shot. Ali is waiting to hit me, the ref can't control him. I have to put one knee and one glove on the canvas to get up. You know Ali is a nut. You can tell what a normal man is going to do, but you can't tell what a nut is going to do, and Ali is a nut"

-Sonny Liston

Heckler
06-02-2006, 08:44 PM
Rofl that quote amuses me. Im intreigued with Sonny Listons persona... any one know of a decent book about him?

SABBATH
06-02-2006, 09:47 PM
Rofl that quote amuses me. Im intreigued with Sonny Listons persona... any one know of a decent book about him?
http://www.ringmemorabilia.com/devilliston.jpg

Heckler,

This one is pretty good.

SABBATH
06-02-2006, 11:24 PM
Ali knocked down cleveland willams loads of time so what willams always had a glass chin
Prior to Ali stopping Williams his only KO losses were to Sonny Liston and Bob Satterfield two of the hardest hitting heavyweights of all time over the span of 15 years and 71 fights. How exactly does this qualify as guy with a glass chin?

Brassangel
06-02-2006, 11:27 PM
Originally Posted by SABBATH
If you watch Liston's head snap, you can see it was no phantom punch. The elasticity in Liston's knees also gives. It was a legit knockdown but Liston could have gotten up in time if Ali had went to a corner.

Watch for yourself.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=5T_dHRLn...=sonny%20liston

You say this as though I was doubting Ali's punch. I wasn't, I was complimenting him. I guess you could read my post again.

hellfire508
06-05-2006, 05:40 AM
it was real in the sense it could knock u down, not real beleivable for a ko in that fight though, liston could take sum good punches, he showed that before.

I agree.

Legit KD, Sonny could have easily gotten up, but wanted no more of Ali. He knew he had no chance. And with the threats from the NOI etc., he quit on the canvas.

Monsi
06-05-2006, 08:13 AM
'Night Train' by Nick Tosches - a biography of Liston, but reads like a thriller.

There's also a brilliant book about the Benn-McLellan fight called 'War, Baby' by Kevin Mitchell

Dempsey 1919
06-28-2006, 06:02 PM
Two rounds and thirty-eight seconds after Cleveland Williams charged from his corner, seeking the heavyweight championship of the world, the speed and grace of Muhammad Ali's feet left Williams befuddled and confused, and the streek lightning and thunderous power of Ali's fists stretched the challenger on the floor. Four times Ali slashed at Williams with the same homicidal fury that had felled Sonny Liston and other fighters. During those thrill-jammed minutes, The Houston Astrodome was bedlamed, the screams from the crowd revurbiated from the steel beams, as the champion moved irresistably to the attack. The fight ended, Ali's hand raised in victory for the man who has now defended his title for the seventh time and is regarded as invincible.
http://bermangraphics.com/images/Ali_Williams-p143.jpg

Dempsey 1919
06-29-2006, 12:29 AM
No one liked the last post? :(