View Full Version : For those of you who put think Marciano is overrated


rocco1252
05-30-2006, 06:20 PM
Heres some facts to defend my boy Marciano against all of you who underrate him and say he fought only old fighters out of their prime, and smaller heavyweights and so on.


"Rocky fought only old fighters"

All fighters fight older fighters. Unless boxing starts seperating by age as well as weight, such will always be the case.
You fight the old ones on your way up, and if you stay too long, you fight the young ones on your way down. Rocky had three key fights against past-prime fighters which are always brought up by the critics; Joe Louis, Jersey Joe Walcott, and Archie Moore. Why did he fight them?

Well, he had to fight Louis, as both were seeking a title shot. Marciano did not want to fight Joe, whom he admired, and in his dressing room prior to the bout said, "This is the last guy on earth I want to fight."

Walcott was the champion, so that was an unavoidable fight, too. Even the critics will agree you must fight the champion unless he steps down or retires, as Rocky did. Walcott wasn't ready to retire.

Moore demanded and campaigned for the fight. Rocky had not sought a fight with Archie and was ready to retire. Forced into the fight by Moore, Marciano made sure nobody would doubt he won his final fight.

Ezzard Charles was only two years older than Rocky; hardly in another age bracket.

Roland LaStarza fought from 1947-58 and Don ****ell from 1946-55, so they were contemporaries of Marciano.

rocco1252
05-30-2006, 06:21 PM
Ages of some of the famous opponents of other greats.
Taking the title from older men:
You would think Marciano was the only champion who recieved his title shot against an older opponent, to hear some critics howl. Let's take a little look at boxing history and see if anyone else beat up an old man to become the champion. Hmmm....

Marciano was 9 years younger than Walcott
But...
Dempsey was 13 years younger than Willard
James J. Jefferies was 12 years younger than Bob Fitzsimmons
Louis was 12 years younger than Braddock
Ali was 10 years younger than Liston
Holmes was 6 years younger than Norton
Spinks was 11 years younger than Ali
Tyson was 14 years younger than Trevor Berbick (WBC Champion)
Tyson was 12 years younger than James "Bonecrusher" Smith (WBA Champion)
Jim Corbett was 8 years younger than John L. Sullivan

So, the average age difference for these championship fights was 11 years. Rocky therefore had less of an age factor advantage than Dempsey, Jefferies, Louis, Ali, Spinks, Tyson, and Corbett.

Non-title fights:
Marciano was 10 years younger than Archie Moore
But wait....
Ali was 19 years younger than Archie Moore!!!
Patterson was 21 years younger than Archie Moore!!!!
Joe Louis was 9 years younger than Max Schmelling. (Max KO'd Joe and was later KO'd by him)
Louis was 12 years younger than Jack Sharkey
Ali was 8 years younger than Henry Cooper
Ali was 7 years younger than Patterson

So, if Rocky rose to the top by beating up older men, it's apparent that so did Ali, Louis, Tyson, Patterson, and Dempsey, to name only a few.

rocco1252
05-30-2006, 06:21 PM
"Marciano fought against small heavyweights"
Though he only weighed in the mid 180s, Rocky fought many men who were bigger, and always with longer reach.
The heavyweights of that time weren't the big, lumbering wind suckers of today, exhausted after a few rounds. There is little excuse for the big men of today, who would be in shape at 220, plodding into the ring scaling 260.
In fact, only the heavyweight division tolerates such poor athletic competitors. My opinion on it is this; make them reach a weight based on a percentage of body fat. If the man is a natural 240 pound fighter, fine. But if he is a natural 220 pounder, then make him hit the gym till he hits the weight.

Walcott ... 198 and 6 foot tall.
****ell ... 205 and 5'11".
Rex Layne ... 200 and over 6'.
Louis ... 218 and 6'1".
Lee Savold ... 200 and 6'.
Jerry Jackson ... 254.
Pat Connolly ... 213 and 6'5".
Gilley Ferron ... 205.
Johnny Shkor ... 225 and 6'5".
Bill Hardeman ... 207
Artie Donato ... 202
Eldridge Eatman ... 207
Keene Simmons ... 201
Bill Wilson ... 229 and 6'2".

Let's take this a step in the other direction. If Rocky is to be accused of fighting few big heavyweights, he's innocent of fighting men a lot smaller than him. That's not the case with many of the other man often touted as being better than Marciano. Here are a few examples:
Jack Johnson:
Johnson at 185 VS George Gardner 155 5' 11 1/2"
Johnson at 210 VS Sam Langford 5' 7 1/2" 147
Johnson at 220 VS Tommy Burns 5' 7" 170
Johnson at 196 VS Fireman Jim Flynn 5' 9 1/2" 175
Johnson at 205 VS Philadelphia Jack O'Brien 5' 10 1/2" 161
Johnson at 220 Vs Stanley Ketchel 170

Joe Louis:
Louis 203 VS Bob Pastor 187
Louis 199 1/2 VS Billy Conn 174 (Official. Reportedly only 168)
Louis 200 VS John Henry Lewis 180 (In fairness to Joe, he was giving the half blind and poor health Lewis a much needed pay day out of friendship)

Ali:
Ali 207 VS Henry Cooper 185
Ali 221 VS Bob Foster 180

This is not to say these weren't good fights, but it does show that the bigger heavies weren't out there fighting other 220+ men all the time either.

rocco1252
05-30-2006, 06:22 PM
"Marciano never fought a hard puncher"
This often comes up, saying he would have been knocked out by a power puncher; a Foreman or a Dempsey. First, I will admit he never fought a Foreman or a Demsey. Neither of them fought the other, either, nor did they fight a Marciano, though Foreman did fight Frazier, who was very similar to the Rock.

Rocky had an 88% knockout percentage. Did he fight anyone who hit like him? No?

He did fight:

Rex Layne, a powerful puncher, who knocked out 25 of his first 36 opponents. 69%
Harry "Kid" Mathews, with 61 KOs in 87 wins. 70%.
Archie Moore, the man who holds the record for the most knock outs of any fighter who ever lived; 145 KOs in 199 wins. 73%.
Walcott, 30 KOs in 50 wins, for 60%.
Joe Louis, 49 KOs in 63 wins, 78%
Eddie Ross 23 KOs in 26 wins at time they fought. 88%

To compare with some other fighters:
Holmes 71%
Ken Norton 78%
Ali 66%
Liston 78%
Ingemar Johansson 65%
Max Baer 74%
Max Schmeling 68%
Dempsey 79%
Jack Johnson 38%

The truth is, to compare the punchers (among those whose careers are over and ready for a final analysis) there are only a few heavyweight champions to compare to Marciano in punching power. Based on knockout percentage:
Marciano 88%
Foreman 87%
Frazier 84%
James Jefferies 83%

Therefore, in fairness, only those who fought one of these men knows what's it's like to face that kind of power.

rocco1252
05-30-2006, 06:22 PM
"Marciano Was Easy to Hit"
In his time and ever since, it's been claimed that Marciano was a wide open target, easy to hit, and therefore wouldn't have lasted long against the big sluggers. This is not true. There was a deceptiveness to his style, making him look easy to hit to observers, but not easy for opponents.

Charlie Goldman (1955): "He ain't easy to hit as they say. Rocky rolls under punches and he weaves under punches... He protects his belly by blocking punches with his elbows."
Roland LaStarza (fought Marciano twice) asked where Marciano had improved most between the first and second fights: "In defense. It was harder to get at him... Rocky fools you. He doesn't take as much punishment as it seems. He looks easy to hit inside but he isn't."
Keene Simmons (1951 opponent, KO'd in 8th) "He fools you. When you loook at him from outside the ring he seems easy to hit but if you're in the ring with him you find this isn't the case. His head is bobbing and he's crouched low, so low in fact that you can't get a clear shot at him."

Joe Louis, in the dressing room after his fight with Rocky:"Marciano is a good puncher and he's hard to hit. He has a funny style."

Joe Louis, to Wendell Smith of the Pittsburgh Courier:"He's a good fighter. Better than most people realize. He's strong and young and hard to hit."

Angello Dundee (Ali's trainer)"Rocky was a very deceiving guy. He was not that easy to hit."

Jersey Joe Walcott and Archie Moore both said Marciano had proved to be much harder to hit than they had expected. And Ali, during the filming of the "computer fight" told Angello Dundee that he was surprised at how hard it was to land his jab on Marciano.

rocco1252
05-30-2006, 06:23 PM
"His opponents weren't of the quality other champions fought."
Let's look at his opponents. Were they all bums, or just fighters unknown to today's boxing fans, yet respected fighters in their time?
Harry "Kid" Mathews
At the time they met, Mathews had 78 wins 4 losses 1 draw with 57 KOs. Rocky was 41 wins with 38 KOs. Mathews had only been knocked out once, nine years before. Marciano dropped him with two left hooks in round 2! He was 29 years old and Marciano was 28.
Roland LaStarza
Going into their first fight, LaStarza's record was 37-0, with 19 KOs, and Marciano's was 25-0, with 23 KOs. LaStarza was 22 and Rocky was 26.
Rex Layne
When they met, Layne was 34-1-2 with 24 KOs. He was favored 9-5 to beat Marciano, who was 35-0-0 with 30 KOs. Until they met, it was believed among the boxing experts that Layne, who was much bigger than Marciano, would knock Rocky out. Layne was 23 years old, Rocky was 27.
In the October, 1950 issue of Ring, Nat Fleischer had this to say about Layne:
"Layne looms as the outstanding prospect west of the Mississippi. He is a hard hitter...Layne has what it takes to be developed into the next world heavyweight king. He can hit and has an abundance of courage."
As it turned out, his powerful punches had no affect on Marciano, with Rocky knocking him out in the 6th.
Joe Louis
Ok, Joe was past his prime. He was 37 to Rocky's 27. But, he was Joe Louis. He was on a comeback and had racked up 8 victories in a row. His record stood at 56-2 with 50 KOs to Marciano's 37-0 with 32 KOs.
Ezzard Charles
Simply one of the greatest, most underrated fighters of all time.
When he met Marciano the first time, his record was 72-10 with 54 KOs to Rocky's 45-0 with 38 knockouts. Ezzard was 32 years old and Rocky 30.
Boxing and Wrestling, November 1954, said of their first meeting,"It was also generally agreed that no fighter in the world other than Marciano could have lasted 15 rounds against the Ezzard Charles of the night of June 17, let alone with the decision."
Ring magazine rated Charles the best light heavyweight of all time, putting him ahead of such greats as Archie Moore and Gene Tunney.
How good was Charles?...he defeated Joey Maxim five times, Archie Moore three times,Charley Burley twice, Walcott twice, and Joe Louis once. That's 13 victories against future Hall of Fame fighters. For comparison, Ali had 11 and Joe Louis 7 victories over futher HOF fighters.
Archie Moore
One of the greatest fighters of all time, in any weight class! Moore was 150-22 with 121 KOs to Rocky's 48-0 with 42 KOs.
Was he a washed up has been when Rocky fought him?...After his loss to Marciano by KO, Archie fought 49 more times, with 24 KOs and only 4 more loses!!!
His record AFTER his fight with Marciano was something most fighters would be proud to own.
Bobby Quinn
Quinn was 15-1 with 14 KOs when they fought. Rocky was 3-0 with 3 KOs and no trainer or handlers other than friends from Brockton such as Allie Columbo. This was actually viewed as an easy fight for Quinn. New England promoter Sam Silverman thought he was doing his friend Jimmy O'Keefe, Quinn's manager, a favor. "This Marchegiano kid's got nothing. He can punch all right, but I've never seen a fighter as clumsy. The kid doesn't know what he's doing out there. Quinn won't have no trouble with him."
Rocky knocked Quinn out in the third round with a short right that knocked him completely off his feet.
Eddie Ross
Ross was 26-0 with 23 KOs. Rocky was 4-0. Again, Rocky was looked at as an easy win for a more experianced fighter.
Sam Silverman recalled, "Ross was classy. I figured Rocky was bound to get beat, and Ross was the kid to do it. I threw Rocky in to give this kid another win."
Rocky knocked Ross out in 1 minute and 3 seconds of the first round.
Carmine Vingo
Vingo had a 27-3 record. Rocky was 24-0. Vingo was 6'4" and came in at 187 pounds. Rocky weighed only 180 3/4 pounds. Vingo had reach, weight, and a slight edge in experiance. The fight was brutal, with both landing powerful punches, but in the 6th Rocky all but destroyed Vingo, knocking him out. Sadly, Vingo was badly hurt and had to be rushed to the hospital. He survived, but never fully recovered. from the beating.
Bernie Reynold
Reynolds was 52-9. Rocky was 40-0. Marciano knocked him out in the third round.

Sam Silverman, boxing promoter who provided many of Rocky's early opponents, admitted he brought in fighters with the anticipation that they would defeat Marciano.
"I thought Lowery was gonna lick Rocky. Rocky's fights were all legitimate, good, hard fights. A lot of people were talking about how he was being fed setups. Marciano could have lost any number of times in his early fights."

rocco1252
05-30-2006, 06:23 PM
What did some REAL experts think about Marciano as a fighter?
"What's so often forgotten is that Marciano was truely a great fighter. It was his will to win that made him unbeatable." Archie Moore

"I had a bad weakness I kept hid throughout my career. I didn't like to be crowded, and Marciano always crowded his opponents. That's why I say I could never have beaten him." Joe Louis, May, 1990 issue of Boxing Illustrated

"Naturally, the first thought that comes to mind would have to be Muhammad Ali. Ali is more my time. But before my time, it would have to be Joe Louis or Rocky Marciano." Marvin Hagler when asked to name the greatest fighter of all time.

"Just look at Rocky Marciano's record. Nobody beat him. You can't take that from him." George Foreman on why he placed Marciano behind Louis as second greatest heavyweight of all time.

"Joe Louis is the greatest heavyweight champion of all time. Rocky Marciano is second only to Louis." Joe Frazier

"Well, let’s face it. He never got licked. Undefeated heavyweight champion of the world. I mean, how much better can you do than that?"
"Marciano is the most underrated heavyweight of all time. He had so much more than they ever gave him credit for. He was capable of getting those bigger, heavier guys and destroying them." Angelo Dundee.

"This man was one of the greatest champions ever. He refused to accept defeat. And nobody beat him." Sonny Liston.

Yaman
05-30-2006, 06:23 PM
''Doesnt matter, he was still slow, small bla bla''
Is what you're gonna hear like always bro. But they know the truth.

rocco1252
05-30-2006, 06:29 PM
''Doesnt matter, he was still slow, small bla bla''
Is what you're gonna hear like always bro. But they know the truth.
i know it's not going to change their minds about Marciano figured I would post anyway and just show them what they are saying is completly biased based on what they have heard/seen and otherwise come to believe.

dansweeney
05-30-2006, 06:41 PM
the haters and racists will still hate on him. i can feel butterfly1964 getting red in the face right now.

rocco1252
05-30-2006, 06:45 PM
the haters and racists will still hate on him. i can feel butterfly1964 getting red in the face right now.
yeah because I just proved to him every defense he ever had against Marciano is now squashed. And if you want to see some Fantasy Fight results go to the Marciano beats God thread in Fantasy fights section go to the last 2 pages and read, very insightful almost 1 sided but this was written by a boxing expert I will post the site later on.

rocco1252
05-30-2006, 06:53 PM
Rocky's Amazing Stamina
The "experts" disagree on many things about Rocky Marciano, but the one thing upon which all seem to agree is this; he was the best conditioned heavyweight champion of all time.

Boxing is a grueling sport and in order to make it to the late rounds, a fighter must be in shape. A fighter is in his peak condition for the night when the first bell rings. Three minutes later he gets his first rest. Then it’s an alternating cycle of three minutes of exertion followed by that precious sixty seconds to try to recover. With every round more energy is spent and less is recovered until a fighter is pushed to the very limit. Many lack the stamina to make the long fight, especially heavyweights.
Marciano learned early that he had shortcomings to overcome. His short reach, his height, his lack of natural boxing ability put him at a disadvantage. But he had strength and courage. And with enough hard training, he added stamina.

Rocky was disqualified in his first amateur fight, with Henry Lester, when he became totally exhausted and used a knee to keep Lester off him. He was smoking heavily at the time, eating all the wrong foods, and hadn’t trained at all. The crowd booed him and even his younger brother Sonny was disappointed in him. He told Sonny, "I learned something from this fight…..if I ever get into the ring again, you can bet I won’t be out of condition." It was a promise he kept through 49 pro fights.

rocco1252
05-30-2006, 06:54 PM
"You throw a lot of punches, kid. Maybe you’ll have to pace yourself. You could get plenty tired in a ten rounder." Charlie Goldman to Rocky when he was training for his fight with Johnny Pretzie.


"Don’t worry about that," Rocky told him. "I’m in better condition than any of them. I can go as many rounds as I have to."
Rocky spent hours punching the special heavy bag he'd had made for him. It weighed 300 pounds, much heavier than a normal heavy bag, and he had to hit it even harder to move it around. He wanted to be able to move 200+ pound heavyweights around with his body punches.

rocco1252
05-30-2006, 06:56 PM
Marciano liked to run up a hill near his home while training. He’d charge up it at full speed, then run backwards back to the bottom. Then he’d charge up again. Rocky did this over and over to build up his leg muscles and his stamina.
Football great Walter Payton did the same thing on a hill near his home. It allowed Payton to drive with his legs and hit as hard as men who outweighed him by 60 pounds. Marciano derived the power to hurt much bigger men the same way.
Something else Marciano did to build up his stamina and punching power was to get in a swimming pool to shoulder depth and throw hundreds of punches underwater.

"He does it (runs) every morning even if he doesn’t have a fight…five or six miles. Been doing it for six years, every day. Even does six or seven miles on Christmas morning." Charlie Piccento, Rocky's uncle, to a reporter for Fight Magazine 1953, just before Walcott II.
"You throw a lot of punches, kid. Maybe you’ll have to pace yourself. You could get plenty tired in a ten rounder." Charlie Goldman to Rocky when he was training for his fight with Johnny Pretzie.


"Don’t worry about that," Rocky told him. "I’m in better condition than any of them. I can go as many rounds as I have to."
Rocky spent hours punching the special heavy bag he'd had made for him. It weighed 300 pounds, much heavier than a normal heavy bag, and he had to hit it even harder to move it around. He wanted to be able to move 200+ pound heavyweights around with his body punches.
Ben Bentley, Rocky's press agent and friend, told me Rocky would normally run at least 5-6 miles a day year round, but when a fight was signed he'd increase the distance to 9-10 miles, and usually the last week up it to 12-15 miles. On top of this, he liked to walk another 5-10 miles in the late afternoon or evening. And he did all this in the hilly country around Grossinger's, where he trained.
It was Rocky's obsession with conditioning that kept him training 365 days a year and this dedication gave him stamina never seen before or since in a fighter. It allowed him to set a blistering pace that no fighter could match. A good heavyweight throws on average 40-45 punches a round during active rounds, and about half that when tired. Marciano averaged in the 80-85 punch range, and it wasn't unusual for him to throw over 100 punches a round.

It's an axiom in boxing that a slugger tires quicker than a boxer. Marciano is the glaring exception to that rule. He could outlast the best conditioned pure boxers. The big sluggers who might have been able to hurt him lost their power after a few rounds. The better conditioned boxers didn't have the power to hurt him.

Witness his wins over such excellent boxers as Roland LaStarza and Ezzard Charles. Though both stayed with Marciano for the duration their first fights with him, LaStarza 10 rounds and Charles 15, they lost because Rocky's attack never faltered.

You might outbox him...you could never out punch him.
"He could hurt you, sure, but it was the quantity of his punches. He just had more stamina than anyone else in those days. He was like a bull with gloves." Archie Moore
"I would throw a hard punch, then he would throw a hard punch. The difference was that Rocky would throw 10 more. He just never stopped throwing punches." Roland LaStarza
"He was a great puncher, one of the best of all-time. He just threw one punch after another, and all of them were hard." Harry "Kid" Matthews
Back to Home Page
Marciano liked to run up a hill near his home while training. He’d charge up it at full speed, then run backwards back to the bottom. Then he’d charge up again. Rocky did this over and over to build up his leg muscles and his stamina.
Football great Walter Payton did the same thing on a hill near his home. It allowed Payton to drive with his legs and hit as hard as men who outweighed him by 60 pounds. Marciano derived the power to hurt much bigger men the same way.
Something else Marciano did to build up his stamina and punching power was to get in a swimming pool to shoulder depth and throw hundreds of punches underwater.
"Despite the critics who claimed he was too slow, clumsy, a brawler unskilled in the finer points of his craft, Marciano’s sheer stamina and overwhelming desire to win more than compensated for any shortcomings in his boxing style." Everett M. Skehan, author of "Rocky Marciano: Biography of a First Son"
"Marciano’s preoccupation with physical conditioning cannot be overstressed. He was eager to train every day before a fight, and, unlike most heavyweights, he sometimes went to camp months before there was even a fight scheduled for him.
Even Joe Frazier, the former champion who also prided himself on being fit…did not train with anywhere near the same dedication that Marciano devoted to it.
" ‘I’ve been to camp eight weeks,’ Frazier said before the Thriller in Manila, ‘The longest in my life, and I feel I’m ready.’
"It is safe to speculate that eight weeks of training would not have satisfied Marciano had he been scheduled to fight Ali. He had often trained for four or five months to go against far less skilled opponents….and, although one can never be certain, there is reason to doubt whether Ali or any other fighter could have worn Marciano down and destroyed his defenses the way Muhammad did to Foreman and Frazier." Everett Skehan
"Of all boxers it seems to have been Rocky Marciano who trained with the most monastic devotion; his training methods have become legendary. Marciano was willing to seclude himself from the world, including his wife and family, for as long as three months before a fight. Apart from the grueling physical ordeal of this period and the obsessive preoccupation with diet and weight and muscle tone, Marciano concentrated on one thing; the upcoming fight. Every minute of his life was defined in terms of the opening second of the fight. In his training camp the opponent’s name was never mentioned in Marciano’s hearing, nor was boxing as a subject discussed. In the final month Marciano would not write a letter since a letter related to the outside world. During the last ten days before a fight he would see no mail, take no telephone calls, meet no new acquaintances. During the week before the fight he would not shake hands. Or go for a rid in a car, however brief. No new foods! No dreaming of the morning after the fight! For all that was not the fight had to be excluded from consciousness. When Marciano worked out with a punching bag he saw his opponent before him, when he jogged he saw his opponent close beside him, no doubt when he slept he 'saw' his opponent constantly—as the cloistered monk or nun chooses by an act of fanatical will to 'see' only God.
"Madness?-or merely discipline?- this absolute subordination of the self. In any case, for Marciano, it worked." Joyce Carol Oates "On Boxing"

"Marciano’s preoccupation with physical conditioning cannot be overstressed. He was eager to train every day before a fight, and, unlike most heavyweights, he sometimes went to camp months before there was even a fight scheduled for him.
Even Joe Frazier, the former champion who also prided himself on being fit…did not train with anywhere near the same dedication that Marciano devoted to it.
" ‘I’ve been to camp eight weeks,’ Frazier said before the Thriller in Manila, ‘The longest in my life, and I feel I’m ready.’
"It is safe to speculate that eight weeks of training would not have satisfied Marciano had he been scheduled to fight Ali. He had often trained for four or five months to go against far less skilled opponents….and, although one can never be certain, there is reason to doubt whether Ali or any other fighter could have worn Marciano down and destroyed his defenses the way Muhammad did to Foreman and Frazier." Everett Skehan

Heckler
05-30-2006, 08:07 PM
Next time just give us the site lol, im sure most of us have seen it before. It's just other peoples opinions, it doesn't prove other peoples opinions to be incorrect at all. It does raise some interesting points. Marciano reigned in a relatively weak era of boxing, no denying this... but i can't see how anyone can use this against him. He fought all comers, cleaned up the division in convincing fashion and deserves to be acknowledged as an all time great.

Southpaw Stinger
05-30-2006, 10:01 PM
He fought all comers, cleaned up the division in convincing fashion and deserves to be acknowledged as an all time great.

Completely agree.

But that site is total bull **** though!

Dempsey 1919
05-31-2006, 12:06 AM
I like how rocco takes the age difference and tries to make that seem valid. "ali was 22 and liston was 32, and marciano was 28 and louis was 37" So, what does that mean? Let me see:

Lets say an 18yr old fought a 29yr old and compare that to a 28yr old fighting a 35yr old. since one was an 11yr difference and the other was just a 7yr difference, then by your logic the second scenario was a fairer fight. But, at 18, fighters are usually green and inexperienced and at 29 fighters are usually in their prime, so although the difference is 11yrs., the older fighter would have the advantage agewise. Now, lets analyze the second scenario. 28yrs. is usually the peak of a fighters physical abilities, and at 35, a fighter is usually either past their prime or washed up, so even though it is only seven years, one fighter is prime and one is old, so this is unfair to the older fighter.

so even though one is 11 and the other 7, it doesn't mean that 7 is more fair to the older fighter. In other words, which is more fair, a green fighter fighting a prime fighter or a prime fighter fighting an old fighter?

OWNED!!!! :D :D :D

Try again rocco so i can embarrass you again. :p

Dempsey 1919
05-31-2006, 12:07 AM
''Doesnt matter, he was still slow, small bla bla''
Is what you're gonna hear like always bro. But they know the truth.

Oh, snap! They actually let you back on this site? :eek:

dansweeney
05-31-2006, 12:11 AM
I like how rocco takes the age difference and tries to make that seem valid. "ali was 22 and liston was 32, and marciano was 28 and louis was 37" So, what does that mean? Let me see:

Lets say an 18yr old fought a 29yr old and compare that to a 28yr old fighting a 35yr old. since one was an 11yr difference and the other was just a 7yr difference, then by your logic the second scenario was a fairer fight. But, at 18, fighters are usually green and inexperienced and at 29 fighters are usually in their prime, so although the difference is 11yrs., the older fighter would have the advantage agewise. Now, lets analyze the second scenario. 28yrs. is usually the peak of a fighters physical abilities, and at 35, a fighter is usually either past their prime or washed up, so even though it is only seven years, one fighter is prime and one is old, so this is unfair to the older fighter.

so even though one is 11 and the other 7, it doesn't mean that 7 is more fair to the older fighter. In other words, which is more fair, a green fighter fighting a prime fighter or a prime fighter fighting an old fighter?

OWNED!!!! :D :D :D

Try again rocco so i can embarrass you again. :p


well since you said that 28 is a fighters peak, then it must be true. i was waiting for you to jump in with your two cents. marciano kayo 13 over ali, in a computer fight and in a real fight!!! how bout it? lol, i know you'll go crazy over that one!!!

Dempsey 1919
05-31-2006, 12:18 AM
well since you said that 28 is a fighters peak, then it must be true. i was waiting for you to jump in with your two cents. marciano kayo 13 over ali, in a computer fight and in a real fight!!! how bout it? lol, i know you'll go crazy over that one!!!

Joe Frazier vs. Bob Foster, Computer Fight: Foster ko6

Joe Frazier vs. Bob Foster, Real Fight: Frazier ko2

OWNED AGAIN!!! :D

Keep it comin'. I'll embarrass all of you, ahahahahahahahahaha!!! :D :D

dansweeney
05-31-2006, 12:27 AM
Joe Frazier vs. Bob Foster, Computer Fight: Foster ko6

Joe Frazier vs. Bob Foster, Real Fight: Frazier ko2

OWNED AGAIN!!! :D

Keep it comin'. I'll embarrass all of you, ahahahahahahahahaha!!! :D :D

did they really have a comp fight between foster and frazier? we know, ali is the best, we get it already butterfly. he was unstoppable and unbeatable. unless your name is kenny norton

Dempsey 1919
05-31-2006, 12:42 AM
did they really have a comp fight between foster and frazier? we know, ali is the best, we get it already butterfly. he was unstoppable and unbeatable. unless your name is kenny norton

To answer your question, yes, they did. and foster ko'd frazier in six rounds. But we all know what happened when they fought for real.

and ali was past his prime against norton.

Kid Achilles
05-31-2006, 01:32 AM
That was a terrible example Butterfly. The computer predicted a knockout win for Frazier and that's exactly what happened. Whether it was in the 2nd round or the 6th round is irrelevent. Your example only strengthens the claim (that I don't believe personally) that computer predictions are accurate.

Dempsey 1919
05-31-2006, 01:46 AM
That was a terrible example Butterfly. The computer predicted a knockout win for Frazier and that's exactly what happened. Whether it was in the 2nd round or the 6th round is irrelevent. Your example only strengthens the claim (that I don't believe personally) that computer predictions are accurate.

Didn't the computer say that Foster would win? :confused:

Kid Achilles
05-31-2006, 01:58 AM
Oh ****, completely disregard my post! I misread your post and thought that the computer predicted a KO victory for Frazier in the 6th, and that you were making a huge deal about the computer being four rounds off.

Foster was a HUGE puncher at light heavyweight and dangerous even by heavyweight standards, but I just can't believe the computer predicted Foster knocking Frazier out as being the most likely outcome of that matchup.

Sorry about that, yours was a good example of how wrong computer predictions can be.

tommyhearns804
05-31-2006, 02:02 AM
What a funny moron this guy is who made this post up.You clowns will stop at nothing to try to prove Marciano was more than a pile of horse crap.
Even if Marciano would of fought a prime Archie Moore or Ezzard Charles he would still be fighting natural middleweights who both were knocked out several times by guys who were middleweights.And even if you want to pretend there were in their primes the point is Marciano still stuggled with guys who were smaller than here was.
Charles wasn't a banger even at 160 pounds and you would assume since Moore has the most knock outs in boxing history that it ment he was a huge puncher.When in reality the man just fought alot of stiffs in his career.He had too.Fighters didnt make the kind of money they do now days where they can fight 1 time a year.
Wow you read in a book from a racist white writer that since Marciano trained hard that means he couldn't lose right?Ali,Foreman,Frazier,Tyson,Lewis,both Klitchko's,Tua,Ibeabuchi,Peter,Bowe,Holyfield, and the list goes on would of never lost if they avoided fighting good opponents or could of fought the hyped up trash Marciano fought.Marciano had a strong desire to win?Awww so i guess Frazier wan't Foreman to kick his butt right?Because Fraizer has no desire to win...now did Foreman,Ali ect ect ect.They all wanted to lose.Only Marciano had a disire to win right?
What ****ing Marciano threw 100 punches around?Lol give ma ****ing break.Number one retards Marciano only weighed 180 pounds you racist ****s.So even if he threw 100 punches per round what would that prove?Why compare a light heavyweights punch numbers too a true heavyweight.Only a sick minded racist like you people would even try to compare.
Marciano could of trained every second of his miserable life.He was still slow,unskilled and weak.Look at Tye Fields Ko percentage against bums.Based on what you fools think that must mean Tye Fields is the hardest puncher in boxing history.Marciano chin was weak at best.Can you imagine any guy 20 pounds smaller than lets say Foreman or Tyson knocking them down with one shot?Could you imagine a guy in their 40's busting up Tyson or Foreman or Lewis or any one of the true great heavyweights?Well yet Marciano was floored with one shot by the 40 plus year old Moore.
One would think since Marciano was a light heavyweight that he would at least have faster hands than the true heavyweights right?But Maricano had the slowest hands i ever seen on a boxer.Completely unskilled yet i see tons of you little racist white guys come to this forum and talk about how unskilled Foreman was.Foreman had a jab which was quick.His right hand was quick.He was great at cutting the ring off.The only punches Foreman threw that was slow was his hook but every man i seen 6'4 or taller had a slow hook.Look at Lewis and how he threw his hook.Infact it was just as slow as Foremans and is why he didnt use it much.
Marciano could train 1000 years but Ali would still crush him.If Marciano struggles with Charles who was a good boxer but was smaller weaker slower and less powerful than Ali then why would you think he would do better against the master Ali?If Moore and Walcott would knock down Marciano then the Tysons and Foremans of the world would of killed him
Marciano is still the most overrated athelete in sports history.You can come up with your little theories or go on and on about how you read in a book that was written by a racist white author about how great Marciano but he still isn't.Marciano isn't a heavyweight period so he isn't a top heavyweight great infact Marciano isn't even good for a 180 pound fighter.Just a waste of breate..a hyped up white fighter who will never die as long as we have so many racist whites like you people.

Dempsey 1919
05-31-2006, 02:09 AM
What a funny moron this guy is who made this post up.You clowns will stop at nothing to try to prove Marciano was more than a pile of horse crap.
Even if Marciano would of fought a prime Archie Moore or Ezzard Charles he would still be fighting natural middleweights who both were knocked out several times by guys who were middleweights.And even if you want to pretend there were in their primes the point is Marciano still stuggled with guys who were smaller than here was.
Charles wasn't a banger even at 160 pounds and you would assume since Moore has the most knock outs in boxing history that it ment he was a huge puncher.When in reality the man just fought alot of stiffs in his career.He had too.Fighters didnt make the kind of money they do now days where they can fight 1 time a year.
Wow you read in a book from a racist white writer that since Marciano trained hard that means he couldn't lose right?Ali,Foreman,Frazier,Tyson,Lewis,both Klitchko's,Tua,Ibeabuchi,Peter,Bowe,Holyfield, and the list goes on would of never lost if they avoided fighting good opponents or could of fought the hyped up trash Marciano fought.Marciano had a strong desire to win?Awww so i guess Frazier wan't Foreman to kick his butt right?Because Fraizer has no desire to win...now did Foreman,Ali ect ect ect.They all wanted to lose.Only Marciano had a disire to win right?
What ****ing Marciano threw 100 punches around?Lol give ma ****ing break.Number one retards Marciano only weighed 180 pounds you racist ****s.So even if he threw 100 punches per round what would that prove?Why compare a light heavyweights punch numbers too a true heavyweight.Only a sick minded racist like you people would even try to compare.
Marciano could of trained every second of his miserable life.He was still slow,unskilled and weak.Look at Tye Fields Ko percentage against bums.Based on what you fools think that must mean Tye Fields is the hardest puncher in boxing history.Marciano chin was weak at best.Can you imagine any guy 20 pounds smaller than lets say Foreman or Tyson knocking them down with one shot?Could you imagine a guy in their 40's busting up Tyson or Foreman or Lewis or any one of the true great heavyweights?Well yet Marciano was floored with one shot by the 40 plus year old Moore.
One would think since Marciano was a light heavyweight that he would at least have faster hands than the true heavyweights right?But Maricano had the slowest hands i ever seen on a boxer.Completely unskilled yet i see tons of you little racist white guys come to this forum and talk about how unskilled Foreman was.Foreman had a jab which was quick.His right hand was quick.He was great at cutting the ring off.The only punches Foreman threw that was slow was his hook but every man i seen 6'4 or taller had a slow hook.Look at Lewis and how he threw his hook.Infact it was just as slow as Foremans and is why he didnt use it much.
Marciano could train 1000 years but Ali would still crush him.If Marciano struggles with Charles who was a good boxer but was smaller weaker slower and less powerful than Ali then why would you think he would do better against the master Ali?If Moore and Walcott would knock down Marciano then the Tysons and Foremans of the world would of killed him
Marciano is still the most overrated athelete in sports history.You can come up with your little theories or go on and on about how you read in a book that was written by a racist white author about how great Marciano but he still isn't.Marciano isn't a heavyweight period so he isn't a top heavyweight great infact Marciano isn't even good for a 180 pound fighter.Just a waste of breate..a hyped up white fighter who will never die as long as we have so many racist whites like you people.

Actually, Charles was pretty powerful for a middleweight/light heavyweight. He killed a man in the ring in case you didn't know.

sleazyfellow
05-31-2006, 02:19 AM
Actually, Charles was pretty powerful for a middleweight/light heavyweight. He killed a man in the ring in case you didn't know.

ppl underrate charles severely, but in other words mr tommy hearns......OWNED

Yaman
05-31-2006, 05:52 AM
Oh, snap! They actually let you back on this site? :eek:


They actually still let you post on this site? :eek:


I rank Marciano in the top 5 for sure.

Abe Attell
05-31-2006, 07:19 AM
No offense, but there were to many flaws

Hous
05-31-2006, 04:48 PM
Ali was physically taking a beating that fight and didn't want to continue with the exhibition. Ali demanded a addition 2 thousand dollars after being floored by a body shoot. The shoot was 100% legal as the rules were punches to the face were to be pulled and body shoots were to be carried out. These rules helped Ali out more than Marciano...

Said Dundee of the affair: "Muhammad acquired a lot of respect for Rocky. He said Rocky was a lot harder to hit with a jab than he looked."
Stories came out of the sessions. Several claimed Rocky really hurt Ali with body shots, so that Muhammad climbed out of the ring and demanded extra money to continue. He was payed additional money. (Woroner himself said Ali took such a battering that he refused to continue until he was guaranteed an additional two thousand dollars.) I've talked to the son of one observer who says Rocky doubled Ali up with a body shot after Ali kept jabbing the wig off Rocky's head. Dundee admitted to the wig episode, but never told of the hard body shot that it led to. Ferdie Pacheco, however, the ring doctor in the film, claims Ali was dropped by a real body shot. The undeniable fact is, Rocky entered the ring ready to make a real fight of it if need be. Even Dundee said he had to be calmed down after the wig incident.
http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Arena/1047//alirock.html

Unless Ali had tremendous KO power to KO a walking tank, I don't see how he could have won...

rocco1252
05-31-2006, 05:34 PM
What a funny moron this guy is who made this post up.You clowns will stop at nothing to try to prove Marciano was more than a pile of horse crap.
Even if Marciano would of fought a prime Archie Moore or Ezzard Charles he would still be fighting natural middleweights who both were knocked out several times by guys who were middleweights.And even if you want to pretend there were in their primes the point is Marciano still stuggled with guys who were smaller than here was.
Charles wasn't a banger even at 160 pounds and you would assume since Moore has the most knock outs in boxing history that it ment he was a huge puncher.When in reality the man just fought alot of stiffs in his career.He had too.Fighters didnt make the kind of money they do now days where they can fight 1 time a year.
Wow you read in a book from a racist white writer that since Marciano trained hard that means he couldn't lose right?Ali,Foreman,Frazier,Tyson,Lewis,both Klitchko's,Tua,Ibeabuchi,Peter,Bowe,Holyfield, and the list goes on would of never lost if they avoided fighting good opponents or could of fought the hyped up trash Marciano fought.Marciano had a strong desire to win?Awww so i guess Frazier wan't Foreman to kick his butt right?Because Fraizer has no desire to win...now did Foreman,Ali ect ect ect.They all wanted to lose.Only Marciano had a disire to win right?
What ****ing Marciano threw 100 punches around?Lol give ma ****ing break.Number one retards Marciano only weighed 180 pounds you racist ****s.So even if he threw 100 punches per round what would that prove?Why compare a light heavyweights punch numbers too a true heavyweight.Only a sick minded racist like you people would even try to compare.
Marciano could of trained every second of his miserable life.He was still slow,unskilled and weak.Look at Tye Fields Ko percentage against bums.Based on what you fools think that must mean Tye Fields is the hardest puncher in boxing history.Marciano chin was weak at best.Can you imagine any guy 20 pounds smaller than lets say Foreman or Tyson knocking them down with one shot?Could you imagine a guy in their 40's busting up Tyson or Foreman or Lewis or any one of the true great heavyweights?Well yet Marciano was floored with one shot by the 40 plus year old Moore.
One would think since Marciano was a light heavyweight that he would at least have faster hands than the true heavyweights right?But Maricano had the slowest hands i ever seen on a boxer.Completely unskilled yet i see tons of you little racist white guys come to this forum and talk about how unskilled Foreman was.Foreman had a jab which was quick.His right hand was quick.He was great at cutting the ring off.The only punches Foreman threw that was slow was his hook but every man i seen 6'4 or taller had a slow hook.Look at Lewis and how he threw his hook.Infact it was just as slow as Foremans and is why he didnt use it much.
Marciano could train 1000 years but Ali would still crush him.If Marciano struggles with Charles who was a good boxer but was smaller weaker slower and less powerful than Ali then why would you think he would do better against the master Ali?If Moore and Walcott would knock down Marciano then the Tysons and Foremans of the world would of killed him
Marciano is still the most overrated athelete in sports history.You can come up with your little theories or go on and on about how you read in a book that was written by a racist white author about how great Marciano but he still isn't.Marciano isn't a heavyweight period so he isn't a top heavyweight great infact Marciano isn't even good for a 180 pound fighter.Just a waste of breate..a hyped up white fighter who will never die as long as we have so many racist whites like you people.
Weak? Are you out of your mind? Read everything all fighters said about Marciano and how he broke bones in peoples arms, face and stomach, and how there whole body's went numb when they got hit by him. He had no skill your right but who needs skill when your in the guys chest pounding away and winning every time? Thats just what he would have done against Ali as did Frazier accept he was far tougher than Frazier and more devistating in the long run. And watch the Moore fight, Marciano was up at 4 he was off balance after throwing a right hand had one foot on the ground and got hit, thats why he went down chin had nothing to do with that knock down. Watch the Walcott fight he got hit off balance again by a perfect shot that would have knocked most anyone out of any era and he was up at 3, smacking his gloves together only to go back to his relentless attack. Rocky was asked if he was ever hurt by the shots that knocked him down and his response was no. And never once did I specify that Ali, Foreman, and Frazier didnt have the will to win or want to win, your barking up the wrong tree kid. Furthermore, I'm not racist actually far from it. I base my judgement on facts and what I have came to see and hear and read through multiple sources.

rocco1252
05-31-2006, 05:46 PM
Some of you need a little more education about Marciano.

Marciano's strengths were due to the exceedingly rare combination of an incredible chin and great punching power, not to mention his endurance and tenacity were even greater than Frazier's and I love Joe Frazier. They both had the maximum heart of any fighter.
Marciano definitely had a better chin than Frazier, and Marciano could take guys out with the left or the right. Frazier's had a great left, but almost no right at all.

Marciano was a freak of nature, a once in a century kind of fighter that would eventually test your body and your chin.
Okay, the slickest boxers were a challenge to Rocky, well, well, well, uh, they are a challenge for every fighter, just look at Tyson's struggle against journeyman James Quick Tillis. Look at Ali against a powder puff Jimmy Young.

If you think Ali would not have trouble with Marciano, just watch Ali backing up and still get tagged against a slow George Chuvalo (Chuvalo also had a great chin, but Marciano was quicker and punched much harder and much more often than George Chuvalo)
Chuvalo was able to hit Ali with a bunch of solid punches in that fight and so would Rocky, and the Rock could really punch.

Marciano always came to fight and did what he had to do to win in any fight. Rocky took LaStarza out easily in the rematch and LaStarza said Rocky had greatly improved since their first fight decision. Rocky learned on the job, because he had almost no amateur experience, a total of 5 amateur fights before turning pro. He didn't have a boxing coach before he turned pro and even for a while in his pro career. After getting extremely tired in his first amateur fight, he vowed to never fight again unless he was in shape. True to his word he worked out like a maniac the rest of his career. He had incredible conditioning, maybe the best stamina ever.

Early in his pro career, Silverman repeatedly matched him with men who had big punches and much more experience so that Marciano would lose, and he KOed every one of them because even without
experience he could wade through their best punches and nail them with either hand. He punched so hard that his hands were injured many times in his career.

If you fought Marciano, the odds are that everyone would find out if you had a chin, a body, recuperative power and a heart.You would definitely have to earn it, he came to fight.
Could he beat Johnson, Dempsey, Louis, Ali in their primes, who knows? Ali could not have hurt Marciano or even slowed him down, but he may have turned it into a track meet and won, or he may
have gotten hurt, as in Frazier and Henry Cooper, (those weren't just flash knockdowns, Ali was hurt bad).

A note on Sonny Liston. Sonny sure did not like to get hit. The few fights that he got hit, he struggled. He would have quit against Marciano. old Leotis Martin knocked Sonny out cold as a
cucumber with a single left.

I rank Joe Louis as the best Heavy ever, Ray Robinson as the best fighter ever, but the way fighters match up makes for drama. No one fighter would have an easy go, the great ones rise to the occasion, but you better have a great chin, great conditioning and a ton of heart.

Tysonisgod
12-20-2006, 06:05 PM
well done, you deff no your stuff about rocky man

Dempsey 1919
12-20-2006, 06:53 PM
Why is this thread bumped?

Yaman
12-21-2006, 04:07 AM
Can i ask why you bump your threads all the time?

Dempsey 1919
12-22-2006, 02:50 AM
Can i ask why you bump your threads all the time?

I get bored sometimes.

hhascup
12-22-2006, 07:24 PM
Ali fought better opponents then Rocky:

Of Ali's 61 bouts, he fought boxers that were rated in the top 10 in the World when he fought them 38 times (62.295%), winning 33 (54.098%) of them. He also fought a total of 49 bouts that boxers that were rated in the top 10 at one time or another in his 61 bouts. That's a percentage of 80.3279%.

Of Rocky's 49 bouts, he fought boxers that were rated in the top 10 in the World when he fought them only 11 times (22.44898%), winning all 11 (22.44898%) of them. He also fought a total of 16 bouts that boxers were rated in the top 10 at one time or another in his 49 bouts. That's a percentage of only 32.653%.

Ali fought boxers with an average pro record of 32.23 - 5.25 - 1.2 for an average winning percentage of 85.268595%

<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;charset=UTF-8"><title></title>Rocky fought boxers with an average pro record of 29.7 - 10.16 - 1.77 for an average winning percentage of 73.48%

Most boxing historians would agree that Ali fought the best and this proves it.

RockyMarcianofan00
12-22-2006, 10:54 PM
Threads like these should die because the worlds to full of Ali nuthuggers (nobody in particular) that are all caught up with a fighter being fast and are too ignorant to realise that a figher can be strong and slower and still be great...

This world needs to start looking at fighters equally in terms of how they fight rather then holding speed guys on a pedestal...

Dempsey 1919
12-23-2006, 03:09 AM
Threads like these should die because the worlds to full of Ali nuthuggers (nobody in particular) that are all caught up with a fighter being fast and are too ignorant to realise that a figher can be strong and slower and still be great...

This world needs to start looking at fighters equally in terms of how they fight rather then holding speed guys on a pedestal...

Everybody has a need for speed!:banana:

Lubutheimmortal
12-24-2006, 06:03 PM
Everybody has a need for speed!:banana:
Cept Butterbean =) ! Be he is a big ole fattie hehe.

The Surgeon
12-25-2006, 06:27 AM
I like Rocky but just dont think he could cut it with the Ali's, Foremans, Tysons ect. He was the best at his time and thats good enough

hhascup
12-25-2006, 12:27 PM
I like Rocky but just dont think he could cut it with the Ali's, Foremans, Tysons ect. He was the best at his time and thats good enough

Well said!

Rocky was the best of HIS time.

Kid Achilles
12-25-2006, 01:37 PM
He was the best of his time and comparing eras is often a difficult endeavor. Was his era really that bad, or did quality fighters like Rex Layne, Carmine Vingo, ,Roland LaStarza, and other contenders become obscured by time because a rising young Rocky destroyed them and ended their careers?

Who's to say that a slicker like LaStarza doesn't give Ali a good boxing match? These were some of the best heavyweights on the planet at the time, in an era when boxing was more popular in the US and there were more gyms and more Americans competing in the sport than at present.

I would say the 1950's weren't a standout era for boxing but it the division was not as weak as it is today. Marciano beating those guys and never taking a loss is very impressive, considering how even all time greats like Tyson and Lewis overlooked guys and lost when they were young and in their 20's.

I don't think Marciano was the best fighter ever, but a top ten heavyweight unquestionably. You don't go undefeated at 49-0 while facing world class competition, including several HOFers, without possessing many special traits.

The Surgeon
12-25-2006, 04:36 PM
He was the best of his time and comparing eras is often a difficult endeavor. Was his era really that bad, or did quality fighters like Rex Layne, Carmine Vingo, ,Roland LaStarza, and other contenders become obscured by time because a rising young Rocky destroyed them and ended their careers?

Who's to say that a slicker like LaStarza doesn't give Ali a good boxing match? These were some of the best heavyweights on the planet at the time, in an era when boxing was more popular in the US and there were more gyms and more Americans competing in the sport than at present.

I would say the 1950's weren't a standout era for boxing but it the division was not as weak as it is today. Marciano beating those guys and never taking a loss is very impressive, considering how even all time greats like Tyson and Lewis overlooked guys and lost when they were young and in their 20's.

I don't think Marciano was the best fighter ever, but a top ten heavyweight unquestionably. You don't go undefeated at 49-0 while facing world class competition, including several HOFers, without possessing many special traits.

I cant see how Rocky beats a guy like Valuev. Dont get me wrong id be rootin for him, i Hate Ape Lord but its the sheer size discrepency u know. Pound4Pound those old timers were probably way better but u know they were in the same league phisiqually im sad to say. But Yeah Rocky is still a gr8 49-0, dont get that for nothin against the top fighters available.

hhascup
12-25-2006, 09:21 PM
I don't think Marciano was the best fighter ever, but a top ten heavyweight unquestionably. You don't go undefeated at 49-0 while facing world class competition, including several HOFers, without possessing many special traits.

Actually he faced a total of 4 Hall of Famers, Louis, Walcott, Charles and Moore. Each of them were past their prime, BUT I agree that you have to rate him in the top 10 all times just by going with his record..

Back in 1999 they had the unveiling of the Rocky Marciano Stamp at the Rocky Marciano Gym in Jersey City, New Jersey. Lou Marciano was a part owner of the gym with Al Certo, and they asked me to MC the affair. Several days later I also MC'ed the unveiling of the Joe Louis Memorial Park Monument in Pompton Lakes New Jersey.

Lubutheimmortal
12-26-2006, 01:01 AM
Yes,....I am about to repeat what's already been said, but least I've threw in my two cents for today. Rocky M is a true legend, and shall be remebered. A great man outside the ring as he was in. Undefeated,....perfection in the number sense. He fought whatever was there, even if it wasnt much of anything. But in the end of the day no one picks what given to them,...you just do what you got to do with what you have, and it's not your fault what you was given to work with. Just do the best with what you have, and thats exactly what Rock did,...the best with what he had. Could he of beaten Foreman -Ali? I don't know, I only know that 49 - 0 is something to be cherished for years and years to come.

brownpimp88
12-26-2006, 03:19 AM
Marciano is way better than a guy like dempsey but, holmes and foreman would have beaten him.

Kid Achilles
12-26-2006, 03:25 AM
A guy like Dempsey? Dempsey was a great heavyweight. He cleaned out the division before he became champ, had one of the greatest runs of any heavyweight ever prior to winning the title from Willard.

Dempsey 1919
12-26-2006, 03:40 AM
Marciano is way better than a guy like dempsey but, holmes and foreman would have beaten him.

Marciano is overrated. Dempsey was IMO better. He had better hand and foot speed, a better defense, good boxing skills, and a better puncher.

Dempsey 1919
12-26-2006, 03:40 AM
A guy like Dempsey? Dempsey was a great heavyweight. He cleaned out the division before he became champ, had one of the greatest runs of any heavyweight ever prior to winning the title from Willard.

Agreed.:boxing:

micky_knox
12-26-2006, 10:32 AM
you dont go 49-0-0 unless you are somthing special

rocky was very special

hhascup
12-26-2006, 02:27 PM
you dont go 49-0-0 unless you are somthing special

rocky was very special


I agree, BUT you can not just go by the records, it's who you fought that really counts.

micky_knox
12-26-2006, 02:47 PM
I agree, BUT you can not just go by the records, it's who you fought that really counts.

he fought his way to a title shot........won the title and defended it 6 times (i think it was 6)
then retired undefeated

thats pretty awesome for anybody


rocky could only fight who was around in his era.

hhascup
12-26-2006, 03:07 PM
he fought his way to a title shot........won the title and defended it 6 times (i think it was 6)
then retired undefeated

thats pretty awesome for anybody


rocky could only fight who was around in his era.

Yes, he fought just about everyone.

Some of the contenders at that time he didn't box was Nino Valdes, who was rated the #1 contender for two years during Rocky's time as the Champ. Also Bob Baker, who was rated #2 at that time. Clarence Henry was another one.

micky_knox
12-26-2006, 03:13 PM
I agree, BUT you can not just go by the records, it's who you fought that really counts.

Yes, he fought just about everyone.

Some of the contenders at that time he didn't box was Nino Valdes, who was rated the #1 contender for two years during Rocky's time as the Champ. Also Bob Baker, who was rated #2 at that time. Clarence Henry was another one.
actually i always wonderd why he didnt go for 50

i heard he had a back injury but im not sure if its true....

im embarrased to say i dont know why he retired,but i really would be shocked if it was to duck anybody

Brockton Lip
12-26-2006, 05:46 PM
It was due to a back injury that he had as well as losing some of his desire to train as hard as he usually did.
The opponents he faced were very underrated. I won't get into all of them as some were mentioned but Lastarza and Layne as well as Matthews are quite underrated.

micky_knox
12-26-2006, 06:02 PM
It was due to a back injury that he had as well as losing some of his desire to train as hard as he usually did.
The opponents he faced were very underrated. I won't get into all of them as some were mentioned but Lastarza and Layne as well as Matthews are quite underrated.

thanks for that

i love the rock

no matter what anybody says 49-0-0 is awesome.....

if it wasnt why did holmes want so badly to beat it? and sulk when he didnt?

hhascup
12-26-2006, 06:22 PM
It was due to a back injury that he had as well as losing some of his desire to train as hard as he usually did.
The opponents he faced were very underrated. I won't get into all of them as some were mentioned but Lastarza and Layne as well as Matthews are quite underrated.

Rocky stopped because of his back and his manager, who he didn't get along with.

I agree that LaStarza and Layne were two of the best of that time. Matthews was pretty good too, BUT he was a light Heavyweight. He weighed only 179 pounds when he fought Rocky.

Here's what I wrote on another web site when I stated that Rocky fought a lot of guys that were past their primes

Age is not what I am talking about. Some boxers are past there primes when there in there early to mid 20's and others are in there primes when there in there late 30's.

Rocky fought the best that was out there during his time, BUT the best of his times wasn't as good as other times.

Rocky never fought anyone who hit as hard as Shavers, Foreman or Frazier. He never fought anyone that was as fast as Ali or Patterson.

Lets look at the best boxers he fought:

Rocky fought LaStarza twice (1950 & 1953) and he was very good. A lot of people thought LaStarza beat Rocky in their 1st bout. Rocky would stop him in the return bout.

He also fought Walcott (1952 & 1953) and Charles (both in 1954) twice each. Charles had 90 bouts at that time and he had seen better days.

In his 1st bout with Rocky, Charles fought very well, and it was a lot closer then a lot of people thought it would be and people wanted to see a return go. Rocky stopped Charles in the return bout.

In the 1st Walcott bout going into the 13th round, the judges had Jersey Joe ahead 7-4, 7-5 and 8-4. Rocky stopped Jersey Joe in the return bout in 1 round.

He only fought another 10 boxers that were ever in the 10 top by Ring at one time or another.

Phil Muscato (December 1949) was last rated in the top 10 in 1948, he fought Rocky the next year after losing 4 in a row and 5 out of his last 6 before boxing Rocky.

Johnny Shkor (September 1950) was 29-18-2 at the time he fought Rocky in 1950. He was last rated in 1947. He just got stopped by Walcott and lost his last 7 of 11 bouts.

Rex Layne (July 1951) had a pro record of 34-1-2 with 24 knockouts going into the bout with Rocky. He was a very good boxer, in fact he was one of the best at that time.

Freddy Beshore (August 1951) was last rated in October 1950, Rocky fought him in August of 1951. He lost 7 of his last 9 bouts before he fought Rocky.

Joe Louis (October 1951) who was still good, BUT way past his prime.

Lee Savold (February 1952) was last rated in 1951, Rocky stopped him in 1952. Savold was also stopped 9 times before his bout with Rocky, including one by an aging Joe Louis.

Bernie Reynolds (May 1952), who lost 4 out of his last 6 bouts before boxing Rocky in 1952. Reynolds was past his prime as the last time he was rated was 1949.

Harry Kid Matthews (July 1952) was an excellent boxer with an excellent record, but he was really was a Light Heavyweight.

Don ****ell (May 1955) beat Matthews 3 times and LaStarza. He was also stopped 6 times before he fought Rocky, including a bout with Randy Turpin, a Middleweight, in which he out weigh Turpin by 12 pounds. He was dropped 3 times in the bout.

Archie Moore (September 1955), he was one of the Greatest Light Heavyweights ever.

So if you go by this, the only boxers that were rated in the top 10 when he fought them were Walcott, Charles and LaStarza twice each, Louis, Moore, Layne, Matthews and ****ell. So that means he fought only 8 boxers, 11 times that were rated in the top 10 at the time he fought them.

Ali, Holmes, Louis and others, have fought far more top 10 contenders then that.

Again, if you go just by the record, Rocky is the Greatest, BUT you can't just go by that. Its who they fought that counts.

I only wish Marciano was around during the time of Ali, Holmes, Louis in his prime. Maybe he would prove to be the Greatest by beating all of them, BUT we will never know because he wasn't.

Kid Achilles
12-26-2006, 06:47 PM
Good post. Still you can also pick apart many of Ali's opponents. In the 60's, he's credited with beating Cleveland Williams in what many consider his greatest display of skill and raw talent, but in fact Williams was completely shot. In fact, he had actually been shot with a bullet previously, and was never the same after the incident.

Against Norton, all of his victories are debatable. He never beat Norton convincingly.

The two wins over Frazier should have an asterix next to them as Joe was as far as i'm concerned, over the hill for the rematch and as good as shot for the final fight.

Liston, a good victory, is marred with controversy. The 2nd fight Liston clearly dumped but even the first one does not have everyone convinced. Even if Ali did beat Liston (and personallty I think he did) Liston was clearly mentally and physicall not prepared for that fight as well as being past his prime.

The Foreman win was a great one, perhaps the greatest on his record.

I think Ali's best line of work is in how consistently he beat solid contenders like Quarry, Chuvalo, Patterson (ex champ in this case), etc.

Ali has one of the best resume's in heavyweight history by Louis is right there directly behind him. Ali is by no means in a league of his own with his resume.

Still both Ali and Louis had better resumes than Marciano.

hhascup
12-26-2006, 07:20 PM
Good post. Still you can also pick apart many of Ali's opponents. In the 60's, he's credited with beating Cleveland Williams in what many consider his greatest display of skill and raw talent, but in fact Williams was completely shot. In fact, he had actually been shot with a bullet previously, and was never the same after the incident.

Against Norton, all of his victories are debatable. He never beat Norton convincingly.

The two wins over Frazier should have an asterix next to them as Joe was as far as i'm concerned, over the hill for the rematch and as good as shot for the final fight.

Liston, a good victory, is marred with controversy. The 2nd fight Liston clearly dumped but even the first one does not have everyone convinced. Even if Ali did beat Liston (and personallty I think he did) Liston was clearly mentally and physicall not prepared for that fight as well as being past his prime.

The Foreman win was a great one, perhaps the greatest on his record.

I think Ali's best line of work is in how consistently he beat solid contenders like Quarry, Chuvalo, Patterson (ex champ in this case), etc.

Ali has one of the best resume's in heavyweight history by Louis is right there directly behind him. Ali is by no means in a league of his own with his resume.

Still both Ali and Louis had better resumes than Marciano.


You can pick Ali's opponents a part like you said, BUT he fought a lot more top boxers then Marciano ever did. In fact he fought the best of any Heavyweight Champion, with Louis coming in 2nd.

I think I posted their STATS before, BUT here they are again:

Of Ali's 61 bouts, he fought boxers that were rated in the top 10 in the World when he fought them 38 times (62.295%), winning 33 (54.098%) of them. He also fought a total of 49 bouts that boxers that were rated in the top 10 at one time or another in his 61 bouts. That's a percentage of 80.3279%.

Of Louis's 72 bouts, he fought boxers that were rated in the top 10 in the World when he fought them 34 times (47.887%), winning 31 (43.056%) of them. He also fought a total of 54 boxers that were rated in the top 10 at one time or another in his 72 bouts. That's a percentage of 76.056%.

Of Rocky's 49 bouts, he fought boxers that were rated in the top 10 in the World when he fought them only 11 times (22.44898%), winning all 11 (22.44898%) of them. He also fought a total of 16 bouts that boxers were rated in the top 10 at one time or another in his 49 bouts. That's a percentage of only 32.653%.

Ali fought boxers with an average pro record of 32.23 - 5.25 - 1.2 for an average winning percentage of 85.268595%

Louis fought boxers with an average pro record of 38.1 - 10.23 - 2.6 for an average winning percentage of 77.349364%

Rocky fought boxers with an average pro record of 29.7 - 10.16 - 1.77 for an average winning percentage of 73.48%

I am sorry if I am repeating myself. I just like to go with all the facts.

SABBATH
12-26-2006, 07:21 PM
Good post. Still you can also pick apart many of Ali's opponents. In the 60's, he's credited with beating Cleveland Williams in what many consider his greatest display of skill and raw talent, but in fact Williams was completely shot. In fact, he had actually been shot with a bullet previously, and was never the same after the incident.

Against Norton, all of his victories are debatable. He never beat Norton convincingly.

The two wins over Frazier should have an asterix next to them as Joe was as far as i'm concerned, over the hill for the rematch and as good as shot for the final fight.Cleveland Williams was rated #3 in Ring Magazine at the time of the Ali fight, was on a 9 fight undefeated run and had only been stopped by two men in 71 professional fights, those being Sonny Liston and Bob Satterfield, two of the hardest hitting heavyweights of all time. So it doesn't quite compare to the Marciano opponents who were on losing streaks, suffered multiple KO losses or were no longer in the ratings.

As for the 'asterik' on Ali's fights against Frazier, the same could be said about Ali. Both guys declined at the same rate which is why all three fights were so competitive. In fact I rate Frazier's June 1974 KO of Jerry Quarry one of his career best performances.

hhascup
12-26-2006, 07:28 PM
Cleveland Williams was rated #3 in Ring Magazine at the time of the Ali fight, was on a 9 fight undefeated run and had only been stopped by two men in 71 professional fights, those being Sonny Liston and Bob Satterfield, two of the hardest hitting heavyweights of all time. So it doesn't quite compare to the Marciano opponents who were on losing streaks, suffered multiple KO losses or were no longer in the ratings.

As for the 'asterik' on Ali's fights against Frazier, the same could be said about Ali. Both guys declined at the same rate which is why all three fights were so competitive. In fact I rate Frazier's June 1974 KO of Jerry Quarry one of his career best performances.

I think everyone remembers that Williams was out of boxing for almost a year and a half (he didn't box at all in 1965) because he was shot. BUT, he was still one of the most danderous heavyweights of that time.

SABBATH
12-26-2006, 07:37 PM
I think everyone remembers that Williams was out of boxing for almost a year and a half (he didn't box at all in 1965) because he was shot. BUT, he was still one of the most danderous heavyweights of that time.With 51 KO's in 65 wins at the time I would agree.

brownpimp88
12-26-2006, 10:58 PM
Look hhascup, it doesnt matter if louis had top 10 wins. It is a wide known fact those guys just ended up being bums of the month. Quality is greater than quantity.

hhascup
12-26-2006, 11:02 PM
Look hhascup, it doesnt matter if louis had top 10 wins. It is a wide known fact those guys just ended up being bums of the month. Quality is greater than quantity.

Bum of the Month was just a term they used as Louis would defend his title so much. Louis was the Champion longer then anyone and defended his title more anyone, that is a FACT!

brownpimp88
12-26-2006, 11:12 PM
Bum of the Month was just a term they used as Louis would defend his title so much. Louis was the Champion longer then anyone and defended his title more anyone, that is a FACT!

That doesnt matter, he never fought an opponent that had the skills of holmes, lennox, holyfield or the power of foreman.

hhascup
12-26-2006, 11:22 PM
Look hhascup, it doesnt matter if louis had top 10 wins. It is a wide known fact those guys just ended up being bums of the month. Quality is greater than quantity.

That doesnt matter, he never fought an opponent that had the skills of holmes, lennox, holyfield or the power of foreman.

Almost every boxing expert would disagree with that statement. You don't hold a title for nearly 12 years without doing something Great.

Foreman had trouble with Peralta twice. What do you think Louis would have done to him.

As far as Holmes, who I think is very under rated, and Lewis goes, Foreman never fought them either. Foreman would distroy boxers that came at him like Frazier, Norton, etc. He almost got KO'ed by Ron Lyle in one of the Geatest matches I had ever seen.

I would rate Ali #1 and Louis #2 on my all-time list.

brownpimp88
12-26-2006, 11:27 PM
Almost every boxing expert would disagree with that statement. You don't hold a title for nearly 12 years without doing something Great.

Foreman had trouble with Peralta twice. What do you think Louis would have done to him.

As far as Holmes, who I think is very under rated, and Lewis goes, Foreman never fought them either. Foreman would distroy boxers that came at him like Frazier, Norton, etc. He almost got KO'ed by Ron Lyle in one of the Geatest matches I had ever seen.

I would rate Ali #1 and Louis #2 on my all-time list.

yeah by legacy they are the top 2, but head to head comparisions louis isnt close. He would have a major size disadvantage against many of the fighters. Holmes would have jabbed him to death and tko'd him, its the truth.

hhascup
12-26-2006, 11:34 PM
yeah by legacy they are the top 2, but head to head comparisions louis isnt close. He would have a major size disadvantage against many of the fighters. Holmes would have jabbed him to death and tko'd him, its the truth.

I look at it this way, they fought many years a part, don't you think if Louis fought in Holmes or Foreman's time, he would be a little bigger. With the vitamins, training, etc. As time goes on the average person gets a little bigger, so would Louis.

Holmes, like I said before, is very under rated. Bert Sugar, who is a friend of mine, put Holmes at #10.

1. Louis
2. Ali
3. Dempsey
4. Johnson
5. Tunney
6. Marciano
7. Charles
8. Foreman
9. Frazier
10. Holmes

Bert Sugar, 1991

1.Jack Dempsey
2.Joe Louis
3.Muhammad Ali
4.Jack Johnson
5.Gene Tunney
6.Rocky Marciano
7.Joe Frazier
8.Larry Holmes
9.Sonny Liston
10.Mike Tyson
<!--[if !supportLineBreakNewLine]-->
I asked him last week about why did he rate one way in 1991 and another way now. I stated that he listens to people, people that knew what their talking about.<!--[endif]-->

brownpimp88
12-26-2006, 11:36 PM
that list is baed on a myth of a fighter, dempsey is garbage ok. marciano had skills, i'll give him that but dempsey sucks ass. Tunney outboxed him twice, hell dempsey fought middleweights. Same with harry greb, he sucks ass too.

hhascup
12-26-2006, 11:41 PM
that list is baed on a myth of a fighter, dempsey is garbage ok. marciano had skills, i'll give him that but dempsey sucks ass. Tunney outboxed him twice, hell dempsey fought middleweights. Same with harry greb, he sucks ass too.

Yes Tunney did outbox Dempsey twice. In fact Dempsey only won 1 round in the 20 they fought. BUT, Dempsey didn't box for 3 years before the 1st Tunney bout, and he wasn't the same as he was in the late teens and early twenty's.

As far as Harry Greb goes, he was a middleweight who fought anyone. He actually beat Tunney once and boxed with 1 eye. Greb is one of the all-time Greats!

Greb only lost 21 times in his 299 bouts.

brownpimp88
12-27-2006, 12:02 AM
watch greb in action, then watch the other greats, you can see all the holes in greb's game. you cant get all info off sites, you have to watch and see who really is legit. I praise pep, i admit marciano was good, dempsey and greb, not really, they suck.

hhascup
12-27-2006, 12:06 AM
watch greb in action, then watch the other greats, you can see all the holes in greb's game. you cant get all info off sites, you have to watch and see who really is legit. I praise pep, i admit marciano was good, dempsey and greb, not really, they suck.

I have all the tapes of Dempsey, Greb and all the other Greats as well. You can see that the film speed isn't the same as it is today, BUT I still have to give credit to both of them. They were two of the all-time Greats and most of the experts, if not all of them will agree.

brownpimp88
12-27-2006, 12:08 AM
I have all the tapes of Dempsey, Greb and all the other Greats as well. You can see that the film speed isn't the same as it is today, BUT I still have to give credit to both of them. They were two of the all-time Greats and most of the experts, if not all of them will agree.

True fans know that hagler is the real best 160 champ. Dempsey was a brawler, he's not that good. I dont see why its hard to not get. Pep has skill, tyson has skill, pernell is god, rocky had power, these guys u talk about just have old school myths.

hhascup
12-27-2006, 12:14 AM
True fans know that hagler is the real best 160 champ. Dempsey was a brawler, he's not that good. I dont see why its hard to not get. Pep has skill, tyson has skill, pernell is god, rocky had power, these guys u talk about just have old school myths.

Well maybe you know more then all the experts. Here's several lists of the all-time Greats:

All Time Heavyweight Ratings:

The best and the rest (http://www.theslot.com/ali/alltime.html)
1.Ali <o></o>
2.Louis<o></o>
3.Liston<o></o>
4.Foreman<o></o>
5.Tyson<o></o>
6.Tunney<o></o>
7.Dempsey<o></o>
8.Johnson<o></o>
9.Marciano<o></o>
10.Frazier<o></o>
11.Holmes
12.Jeffries<o></o>
13.Walcott<o></o>
14.Corbett<o></o>
15.Patterson<o></o>
16.Charles<o></o>
17.Schmeling<o></o>
18.Holyfield

New Page 2 (http://www.iain.hampson.btinternet.co.uk/new_page_2.htm)
1 - Muhammad Ali. (http://www.iain.hampson.btinternet.co.uk/new_page_3.htm)<o></o>
2 - Larry Holmes. (http://www.iain.hampson.btinternet.co.uk/larry_holmes.htm) <o></o>
3 - Lennox Lewis. (http://www.iain.hampson.btinternet.co.uk/page_5_lennox.htm)<o></o>
4 - Evander Holyfield. (http://www.iain.hampson.btinternet.co.uk/page_4_evander.htm)<o></o>
5 - George Foreman. (http://www.iain.hampson.btinternet.co.uk/george_foreman.htm)
6 - Joe Louis. (http://www.iain.hampson.btinternet.co.uk/joe_louis.htm)
7 - Rocky Marciano. (http://www.iain.hampson.btinternet.co.uk/rocky_marciano.htm)<o></o>
8 - Gene Tunney. (http://www.iain.hampson.btinternet.co.uk/gene_tunney.htm) <o></o>>
9 - Mike Tyson. (http://www.iain.hampson.btinternet.co.uk/mike_tyson.htm)<o></o>
10 - Jack Dempsey. (http://www.iain.hampson.btinternet.co.uk/jack_dempsey.htm)<o></o>


The Top Ten Greatest Heavyweight Champions In History (http://www.********boxing.com/news.php?p=6087&more=1)<o></o>>

1. Muhammad Ali - Simply The Greatest, he fought every deserving contender in an era absolutely crammed with them. Also, earns points as the first man in history to win the title three times.

2. Jack Johnson - Way ahead of his time, he was a defensive master. Neither before or since has a heavyweight champion been so blessed in the ability of avoiding blows. Also had hurtful punching power.

3. Jack Dempsey - Revolutionised the sport with his savage fighting style. Also had an absolutely granite jaw.

4. Joe Louis - The longest reign in heavyweight history - an astonishing, never to be beaten, record 25 title defences. Pure one punch KO power, never wasted a shot.

5. Rocky Marciano - Retired unbeaten! Seemingly impossible to hurt. Also had endless stamina and vicious punching power.

6. George Foreman - The oldest heavyweight champion in history. Had freakish strength and thudding punch power. Also had more stamina in later career. Only ever stopped once, by the guy at the top of this list.

7. Larry Holmes - Vastly underrated, second only to Louis in number of title defences. Possibly possessed the finest jab in heavyweight history.

8. Sonny Liston - Had sheer brute force and power. Also a decent boxer, with a ramrod of a jab. Was at his peak in late 1950’s, an old man against Clay/Ali.

9. Joe Frazier - Owned probably the best left hook in heavyweight boxing. Also had amazing heart and an unlimited ability at taking punishment.

10. Evander Holyfield - Proved all his critics wrong when they said he wasn’t big enough. Used incredible guts and courage to defeat the huge Riddick Bowe. Also shocked the world by smashing Tyson.

<!--[if !supportLineBreakNewLine]-->
Cox's Corner All Time Heavyweight Ratings (http://coxscorner.tripod.com/20heavyweights.html)
THE TOP 20 HEAVYWEIGHTS OF ALL TIME<o></o>
Joe Louis <o></o>
Muhammad Ali <o></o>
Jack Johnson <o></o>
George Foreman <o></o>
Larry Holmes <o></o>
Jack Dempsey <o></o>
Sonny Liston <o></o>
Jim Jeffries <o></o>
Lennox Lewis
Mike Tyson <o></o>
Rocky Marciano <o></o>
Joe Frazier <o></o>
Riddick Bowe <o></o>
Evander Holyfield <o></o>
Sam Langford
Gene Tunney <o></o>
James J. Corbett <o></o>
Ezzard Charles <o></o>
Jersey Joe Walcott <o></o>
Max Schmeling<o></o>
Here's Bert Sugar's list:

1. Louis
2. Ali
3. Johnson
4. Dempsey
5. Tunney
6. Marciano
7. Charles
8. Foreman
9. Frazier
10. Holmes

Historians Rankings


(Please Note The Dates)


Nat Fleischer, Founder of Ring Magazine, 1958, 1971.

1.Jack Johnson
2.Jim Jeffries
3.Bob Fitzsimmons
4.Jack Dempsey
5.Jim Corbett
6.Joe Louis
7.Sam Langford
8.Gene Tunney
9.Max Schemling
10.Rocky Marciano


Charley Rose, 1968
1.Sam Langford
2.Jack Johnson
3.Jack Dempsey
4.Joe Louis
5.Jim Jeffries
6.Gene Tunney
7.Sam McVey
8.Rocky Marciano
9.Jim Corbett
10.Max Baer

World Boxing 1974 Readers Poll
1.Joe Louis
2.Jack Dempsey
3.Rocky Marciano
4.Jack Johnson
5.Muhammad Ali
6.Joe Frazier
7.Gene Tunney
8.Jim Jeffries
9.Sonny Liston
10.Ezzard Charles


Nat Loubet, 1975
1.Joe Louis
2.Jack Dempsey
3.Jim Jeffries
4.Jack Johnson
5.Rocky Marciano
6.Gene Tunney
7.Bob Fitzsimmons
8.James J. Corbett
9.Muhammad Ali
10.Joe Frazier



John Durant -Author of "The Heavyweight Champions" (1976)

1.Joe Louis
2.Jack Johnson
3.Jack Dempsey
4.Muhammad Ali
5.Gene Tunney
6.Joe Frazier
7.Jim Jeffries
8.James J. Corbett
9.Rocky Marciano
10.Max Schemling



Bill Brennan 1978 (Former President of the WBA)

1.Muhammad Ali
2.Joe Louis
3.Jack Dempsey
4.Jack Johnson
5.Gene Tunney
6.Jim Jeffries
7.Max Schemeling
8.Rocky Marciano
9.James J. Corebett
10.Bob Fitzsimmons



Big Book of Boxing Reader Poll, 1978

1.Joe Louis
2.Muhammad Ali
3.Rocky Marciano
4.Jack Dempsey
5.Jack Johnson
6.Gene Tunney
7.Joe Frazier
8.Jim Jeffries
9.Ezzard Charles
10.Sonny Liston



Bert Sugar, 1991

1.Jack Dempsey
2.Joe Louis
3.Muhammad Ali
4.Jack Johnson
5.Gene Tunney
6.Rocky Marciano
7.Joe Frazier
8.Larry Holmes
9.Sonny Liston
10.Mike Tyson



Arthur Harris, 1992 (Nov 1992 Boxing Scene)

1.Muhammad Ali
2.Joe Louis
3.Jack Dempsey
4.Jack Johnson
5.Gene Tunney
6.Rocky Marciano
7.Larry Holmes
8.Jersey Joe Walcott
9.Joe Frazier
10.Sonny Liston



Nigel Collins, 1997

1.Muhammad Ali
2.Joe Louis
3.Evander Holyfield
4.Larry Holmes
5.George Foreman
6.Jack Johnson
7.Rocky Marciano
8.Joe Frazier
9.Jack Dempsey
10.Sonny Liston



Herbert Goldman, 1997

1.Muhammad Ali
2.Joe Louis
3.Sonny Liston
4.Mike Tyson
5.Larry Holmes
6.Jack Johnson
7.Jack Dempsey
8.George Foreman
9.Rocky Marciano
10.Joe Frazier




Steve Farhood, 1997

1.Muhammad Ali
2.Joe Louis
3.Jack Johnson
4.Larry Holmes
5.Rocky Marciano
6.Jack Dempsey
7.Jim Jeffries
8.Evander Holyfield
9.Mike Tyson
10.George Foreman



BBC Sports, 2004

1.Muhammad Ali
2.Joe Louis
3.Jack Johnson
4.Larry Holmes
5.Jack Dempsey
6.Rocky Marciano
7.Lennox Lewis
8.Mike Tyson
9.George Foreman
10.Evander Holyfield



IBRO Member Poll, 2005

1.Joe Louis
2.Muhammad Ali
3.Jack Johnson
4.Jack Dempsey
5.Rocky Marciano
6.Larry Holmes
7.James Jeffries
8.George Foreman
9.Sonny Liston
10.Joe Frazier



Tracy Callis
Heavyweights:

1.Jim Jeffries
2.Jack Johnson
3.Jack Dempsey
4.Joe Louis
5.Muhammad Ali
6.Gene Tunney
7.Jim Corbett
8.Sonny Liston
9.Rocky Marciano
10.Larry Holmes<o></o>
<!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--><o></o>
ALL-TIME POUND-FOR-POUND BOXERS

Max Kellerman:
1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Henry Armstrong
3. Muhammad Ali
4. Harry Greb
5. Sam Langford
6. Pernell Whitaker
7. Roberto Duran
8. Willie Pep
9. Benny Leonard
10. Ezzard Charles
10a. Jimmy Wilde
<!--[if !supportLineBreakNewLine]-->
<!--[endif]--><o></o>
Tony Atlas:<o></o>
1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Henry Armstrong<o></o>
3. Muhammad Ali
4. Benny Leonard
5. Sam Langford
6. Harry Greb
7. Mickey Walker
8. Roberto Duran
9. Gene Tunney
10. Carlos Monzon
10a. Joe Louis
<!--[if !supportLineBreakNewLine]-->
<!--[endif]--> <o></o>
ESPN.com:<o></o>
1. Muhammad Ali<o></o>
2. Alexis Arguello<o></o>
3. Henry Armstrong<o></o>
4. Sugar Ray Robinson<o></o>
5. Joe Louis<o></o>
6. Roy Jones Jr.<o></o>
7. Julio Cesar Chavez<o></o>
8. Abe Attel<o></o>
9. Ray Leonard<o></o>
10. Rocky Marciano<o></o>
10a. Wilfred Benitez

brownpimp88
12-27-2006, 01:35 AM
so thats what you do, go by other people's opinion. When will you realize that by watching actual footage, hagler was better. You sound like an amatuer, hagler had better technique and power. Did greb even fight blacks?

hhascup
12-27-2006, 10:43 AM
so thats what you do, go by other people's opinion. When will you realize that by watching actual footage, hagler was better. You sound like an amatuer, hagler had better technique and power. Did greb even fight blacks?

I was just giving you different opinon's of many other boxing experts. Hagler was a GREAT boxer, I think everyone will agree with that. I also have 1,000's of boxing films and I watch them all the time.

I am not saying that Greb was better, but he is the only one to beat Gene Tunney and he also held Tunney to a draw while being out weighed by over 10 pounds. At one time he fought 125 bouts, from 1918 to 1923, and lost only once. Greb beat Tommy Loughran 4 times, while holding him to a draw in another bout, they fought a total of 6 times. He wanted to box Dempsey, but Dempsey didn't want to box him. AND he did box Blacks.

Once again, I do agree that Hagler was one of the Greatest Middleweights of all times, BUT so was Harry Greb. Who was better, well they fought in different times, and we could go on and on about that.

As far as being an Amateur goes, most boxing experts that know me, consider me as one of the top boxing historians around today. Bert Sugar, Herb Goldman both have stated that many times.

brownpimp88
12-27-2006, 02:57 PM
I was just giving you different opinon's of many other boxing experts. Hagler was a GREAT boxer, I think everyone will agree with that. I also have 1,000's of boxing films and I watch them all the time.

I am not saying that Greb was better, but he is the only one to beat Gene Tunney and he also held Tunney to a draw while being out weighed by over 10 pounds. At one time he fought 125 bouts, from 1918 to 1923, and lost only once. Greb beat Tommy Loughran 4 times, while holding him to a draw in another bout, they fought a total of 6 times. He wanted to box Dempsey, but Dempsey didn't want to box him. AND he did box Blacks.

Once again, I do agree that Hagler was one of the Greatest Middleweights of all times, BUT so was Harry Greb. Who was better, well they fought in different times, and we could go on and on about that.

As far as being an Amateur goes, most boxing experts that know me, consider me as one of the top boxing historians around today. Bert Sugar, Herb Goldman both have stated that many times.

The sport evolved son, it evolved. Would wilt chamberlain average 50 points per game nowadays, no. Would royce gracie dominate ufc nowadays, no. Do goalies in hockey still play without masks, no. Boxing is completely different now.

Kid Achilles
12-27-2006, 03:08 PM
Pimp you're a ****ing moron, no offense meant. I actually think you may be a troll to be honest, just here to rile people up. Footage of Greb? You say you saw him in action? Nope, you're full of ****. Footage of Greb in a pro fight does not exist. There's only short clips of him shadowboxing and sparring, that's it, and you can't tell **** from that.

Dempsey a crude brawler? Looks like someone watched the first round of Dempsey-Willard and is judging a fighter's entire career and fighting by that moment.

You need to do your homework and shut the **** up, because the **** your talking stinks and I'm sick of the smell quite frankly. When guys like you with only a miniscule knowledge of boxing and boxing history start running their mouth and talking **** about legends, they need to be told off. You started with the disrespectful attitude by talking trash about Dempsey and Greb so I have no qualms about telling you to **** off.

For your information, Greb is considered by most historians to be one of the P4P greatest fighters of all time. He had an almost inhuman chin and stamina, and many who later lived to see SRR claimed that Greb was quicker of hand and foot than Sugar Ray. He had plenty of raw talent and a very unorthodox nonstop action style that made him a nightmare for anyone to fight, whether a boxer or a slugger. I don't think I know of a single respected historian who doesn't have Greb in their top ten P4P list, at least. At middleweight, he's without any argument a top five middleweight. Many have him at the #1 or #2 spot.

You can digest these facts while you're busing shuting the **** up and come back to me with an apology. Not to me, but to the great men who you've insulted.

brownpimp88
12-27-2006, 03:31 PM
Pimp you're a ****ing moron, no offense meant. I actually think you may be a troll to be honest, just here to rile people up. Footage of Greb? You say you saw him in action? Nope, you're full of ****. Footage of Greb in a pro fight does not exist. There's only short clips of him shadowboxing and sparring, that's it, and you can't tell **** from that.

Dempsey a crude brawler? Looks like someone watched the first round of Dempsey-Willard and is judging a fighter's entire career and fighting by that moment.

You need to do your homework and shut the **** up, because the **** your talking stinks and I'm sick of the smell quite frankly. When guys like you with only a miniscule knowledge of boxing and boxing history start running their mouth and talking **** about legends, they need to be told off. You started with the disrespectful attitude by talking trash about Dempsey and Greb so I have no qualms about telling you to **** off.

For your information, Greb is considered by most historians to be one of the P4P greatest fighters of all time. He had an almost inhuman chin and stamina, and many who later lived to see SRR claimed that Greb was quicker of hand and foot than Sugar Ray. He had plenty of raw talent and a very unorthodox nonstop action style that made him a nightmare for anyone to fight, whether a boxer or a slugger. I don't think I know of a single respected historian who doesn't have Greb in their top ten P4P list, at least. At middleweight, he's without any argument a top five middleweight. Many have him at the #1 or #2 spot.

You can digest these facts while you're busing shuting the **** up and come back to me with an apology. Not to me, but to the great men who you've insulted.
Shut the **** up, they can have thier legacies and i really dont care. In today's era, they wouldnt last. Hagler is a better fighter than greb, there really isnt much to it. Holyfield would have outclassed dempsey with ease, you know nothing. You are the typical guy that will give old school guys inhuman powers. Does wilt chamberlain average 50 points per game in todays era, dream on. It's called evolution dumb****.

Brockton Lip
12-27-2006, 03:59 PM
Shut the **** up, they can have thier legacies and i really dont care. In today's era, they wouldnt last. Hagler is a better fighter than greb, there really isnt much to it. Holyfield would have outclassed dempsey with ease, you know nothing. You are the typical guy that will give old school guys inhuman powers. Does wilt chamberlain average 50 points per game in todays era, dream on. It's called evolution dumb****.

Its been said many times that boxing is one of the few sports to have gotten worse as time went on. The majority of fighters are just not as good as the ones from the past.

brownpimp88
12-27-2006, 04:04 PM
Its been said many times that boxing is one of the few sports to have gotten worse as time went on. The majority of fighters are just not as good as the ones from the past.

It has gotten worse from the the post 70's era, not from the 20's. That is due to more sanctioning bodees really, we dont need the wbo, its useless. Even joe frazier said in his book that the sport is fine with 2 or 3 bodies, but with extra companies coming in, it will get worse.

Kid Achilles
12-27-2006, 04:25 PM
Boxing has gotten worse from the fifties actually, after that the boxing venues started dying out and gyms closed. Up until then, you could find many gyms in each city.

Fact of the matter is for you to state that Hagler was better than Greb in such a matter of fact way, without ever even seeing footage of Greb fighting, shows you really have no credibility.

hhascup
12-27-2006, 05:14 PM
Boxing has gotten worse from the fifties actually, after that the boxing venues started dying out and gyms closed. Up until then, you could find many gyms in each city.

Fact of the matter is for you to state that Hagler was better than Greb in such a matter of fact way, without ever even seeing footage of Greb fighting, shows you really have no credibility.

Just to let you know, I happen to be a Deacon in my church in Lodi, New Jersey, so I can't use several of these words.

When someone says that Greb and Dempsey were bums, then I know I am talking to someone that knows nothing about boxing and I would be wasting my time talking about.

I agree 100% with Kid Achilles and Ali/Marciano. I honestly believe that a Great fighter would be a Great fighter in any era. Greb and Dempsey would more then hold their own with the best of them.

brownpimp88
12-27-2006, 05:31 PM
Boxing has gotten worse from the fifties actually, after that the boxing venues started dying out and gyms closed. Up until then, you could find many gyms in each city.

Fact of the matter is for you to state that Hagler was better than Greb in such a matter of fact way, without ever even seeing footage of Greb fighting, shows you really have no credibility.

Give me a break the 70's and 80's had much better fighters than the 20s and 30's, i'm done wasting my time arguing with idiots. Hagler beat better oponents as middleweight champ, who did greb beat other than tunney that will actually be remembered? Real fans know hagler was better, thats why monzon and corro both ducked him, which is common knowledge. Hagler was the #1 ranked middleweight for years before he even got a title shot.

Veneus started dying out cuz tv was created smart guy, read frazier's book he talks all about the history of the sport.

hhascup
12-27-2006, 05:50 PM
who did greb beat other than tunney that will actually be remembered?

I guess you never heard of fighters like Joe Borrell, Jack Blackburn, Al McCoy, George Chip, Jack Dillon, Battling Levinsky, Jeff Smith, Mike McTigue, Gunboat Smith, Billy Miske, Bill Brennan, Mike Gibbons, Tommy Gibbons, Tommy Loughran, Johnny Wilson, Tiger Flowers, Jimmy Slattery, Mickey Walker and Maxie Rosenbloom. All the them were Contenders or Champions. Greb was only a middleweight and if you know anything about the sport of boxing you will know that several of these men fought for the Heavyweight Championship of the World and Greb beat all of them.

The more you write, the more people will know how much you DON'T KNOW about the sport of boxing. So if I was you, I would keep my mouth shut from on now.

The Surgeon
12-27-2006, 06:02 PM
Im gonna throw my veiw in the mix here too. I beleive say for arguments sake Riddick Bowe vs Jack Johnson, To me Its all Bowe! Duz that mean Bowe is more of a great than Johnson? Depends how u rate greatness, Do u rate it by pitching fighters off against 1 another in ur mind to see? Or do u judge it on status at the time, accomplishments ect? Also sumthing to be taken in to account is that the old timers may hav been even better with new style trainning and nutrition. Mentally pitching the old time fighters against ones from the modern era, i Normally hav the new guys winning. It must be said tho that while ive read lots about them all ive only actually seen a bunch of the older guys fights, and a ton of clips. Hav a go if u want but thats how i see it!

hhascup
12-27-2006, 06:15 PM
Im gonna throw my veiw in the mix here too. I beleive say for arguments sake Riddick Bowe vs Jack Johnson, To me Its all Bowe! Duz that mean Bowe is more of a great than Johnson? Depends how u rate greatness, Do u rate it by pitching fighters off against 1 another in ur mind to see? Or do u judge it on status at the time, accomplishments ect? Also sumthing to be taken in to account is that the old timers may hav been even better with new style trainning and nutrition. Mentally pitching the old time fighters against ones from the modern era, i Normally hav the new guys winning. It must be said tho that while ive read lots about them all ive only actually seen a bunch of the older guys fights, and a ton of clips. Hav a go if u want but thats how i see it!

Your 100% correct when you say, "old timers may have been even better with new style trainning and nutrition." That is what I have been saying for years. If Johnson was boxing today, he would be that much better and if Bowe boxed back in Johnson's day, he wouldn't be as good. Times change and so would the styles.

If you were boxing back when Greb was, you would have a lot more fights then if you were boxing today. There were a lot more boxers back then. They use to box in every somewhat large city, several times a week back then. Today, your lucky if they box once a month in a State. There was more competition back then, as most of the Great people in sports today, take up either Football or Basketball. Years ago, there was no money in either sport, boxing was where the money was.

The Surgeon
12-27-2006, 06:18 PM
Your 100% correct when you say, "old timers may have been even better with new style trainning and nutrition." That is what I have been saying for years. If Johnson was boxing today, he would be that much better and if Bowe boxed back in Johnson's day, he wouldn't be as good. Times change and so would the styles.

If you were boxing back when Greb was, you would have a lot more fights then if you were boxing today. There were a lot more boxers back then. They use to box in every somewhat large city, several times a week back then. Today, your lucky if they box once a month in a State. There was more competition back then, as most of the Great people in sports today, take up either Football or Basketball. Years ago, there was no money in either sport, boxing was where the money was.

Yeah great points there bud

brownpimp88
12-27-2006, 07:03 PM
I guess you never heard of fighters like Joe Borrell, Jack Blackburn, Al McCoy, George Chip, Jack Dillon, Battling Levinsky, Jeff Smith, Mike McTigue, Gunboat Smith, Billy Miske, Bill Brennan, Mike Gibbons, Tommy Gibbons, Tommy Loughran, Johnny Wilson, Tiger Flowers, Jimmy Slattery, Mickey Walker and Maxie Rosenbloom. All the them were Contenders or Champions. Greb was only a middleweight and if you know anything about the sport of boxing you will know that several of these men fought for the Heavyweight Championship of the World and Greb beat all of them.

The more you write, the more people will know how much you DON'T KNOW about the sport of boxing. So if I was you, I would keep my mouth shut from on now.

Yeah they were contenders for dempsey's heavyweight belt and they lost to greb haha. You are telling me that is a better resume than what hagler has, nice try, try again. Monzon retired cuz he was scared to fight hagler, his little buddy corro dodged hagler too. So basically hagler could have been champ for a ****in decade if it wasnt for politics, he was still champ for a much longer time period than good ole greb. Not to mention the fact that hagler hs never been dominated in a fight, he arguably beat leonard and his draw with vito antuofermo was a screwjob so hagler should have been champ since thier first fight.

Robo #1, i do it by head to head comparisons. That is the best way, some fighters accomplish more due to politics and thats why i dont like to judge it that way.

hhascup
12-27-2006, 07:25 PM
Yeah they were contenders for dempsey's heavyweight belt and they lost to greb haha. You are telling me that is a better resume than what hagler has, nice try, try again. Monzon retired cuz he was scared to fight hagler, his little buddy corro dodged hagler too. So basically hagler could have been champ for a ****in decade if it wasnt for politics, he was still champ for a much longer time period than good ole greb. Not to mention the fact that hagler hs never been dominated in a fight, he arguably beat leonard and his draw with vito antuofermo was a screwjob so hagler should have been champ since thier first fight.

Like I stated before, keep talking, your sounding more and more like a person that knows nothing about the sport or history of boxing. I am not saying that Greb was better then Hagler, what I am saying is that Greb was a Great boxer as well as Hagler.

The Surgeon
12-27-2006, 07:28 PM
Cool Pimp, if u did it the other way i gaurentee u ur list would be well different! For the record i rate Hagler as the best middle of all time too, even tho i dont agree with everything ur saying dude

brownpimp88
12-27-2006, 07:28 PM
Like I stated before, keep talking, your sounding more and more like a person that knows nothing about the sport or history of boxing. I am not saying that Greb was better then Hagler, what I am saying is that Greb was a Great boxer as well as Hagler.

greb is decent but he is only top 10 due to accomplishments, no way is he top 10 head to head skills wise. I can easily name 10 fighters that would have beaten dempsey.

brownpimp88
12-27-2006, 07:30 PM
Cool, if u did it the other way i gaurentee u ur list would be well different! For the record i rate Hagler as the best middle of all time too, even tho i dont agree with everything ur saying dude

That's fair, greb dominated his era, mickey walker, tony zale, monzon, hagler and b-hop all dominated thier own era too. I just think hagler was greater than them all, he quit due to politics of the game and was never dominated during any of his 67 fights.

Kid Achilles
12-27-2006, 09:39 PM
How the **** can you say anything about Greb in head to head matchups when no film of his fights survive? Do you realize that you have no ****ing idea how he'd fare against Hagler? Everything that comes out of your mouth is just a toss into the dark but you say it like it's a fact.

Everything I've researched about the guy tells me that fight would go the distance, little chance of a knockout or stoppage IMO unless it's Hagler getting cut and it'd be close.

Greb abd Hagler were two of the greatest middleweights ever, let's leave it at that. I rank Greb above Hagler because I think accomplishments are much more important than who I think would win in a head to head matchup. Head to head matchups are a completely subjective exercise and honestly we have a hard enough time guessing the outcome between fights between two guys in 2006, let alone in different eras. Going by accomplishments is the less biased, more objective method of ranking fighters.

Kid Achilles
12-27-2006, 09:40 PM
That's fair, greb dominated his era, mickey walker, tony zale, monzon, hagler and b-hop all dominated thier own era too. I just think hagler was greater than them all, he quit due to politics of the game and was never dominated during any of his 67 fights.


How many light heayweights and heavyweights did Hagler fight?

brownpimp88
12-27-2006, 09:50 PM
How many light heayweights and heavyweights did Hagler fight?

Hagler was a small middleweight, michael spinks was a large light heavyweight. If hagler would have moved up, that means he would have been stripped of his middleweight belt and why would u do that when you are the undisputed champion of the division.

The heavyweights of the 80's were all frauds and ended up getting exposed by holmes and tyson. If you suggest that hagler should have fought them, that is insane. They are way bigger than the heavyweights of the 20's.

hhascup
12-27-2006, 10:07 PM
Hagler was a small middleweight, michael spinks was a large light heavyweight. If hagler would have moved up, that means he would have been stripped of his middleweight belt and why would u do that when you are the undisputed champion of the division.

The heavyweights of the 80's were all frauds and ended up getting exposed by holmes and tyson. If you suggest that hagler should have fought them, that is insane. They are way bigger than the heavyweights of the 20's.

Greb was 5'8", Hagler was 5'9"

Greb fought a lot of Light Heavyweights as well as Heavyweights in his day. Mickey Walker (5'7"), who won both the Welterweight and Middleweight Titles fought many Light Heavyweights and even fought Jack Sharkey to a draw and also fought Max Schmeling and they were both Heavyweight Champions.

brownpimp88
12-27-2006, 10:19 PM
Greb was 5'8", Hagler was 5'9"

Greb fought a lot of Light Heavyweights as well as Heavyweights in his day. Mickey Walker (5'7"), who won both the Welterweight and Middleweight Titles fought many Light Heavyweights and even fought Jack Sharkey to a draw and also fought Max Schmeling and they were both Heavyweight Champions.

Yeah but larry holmes is 6'3 and around 235, Tyson is 220. Not to mention that both of them were way too skilled and big in thier primes, you can't blame hagler for having a smart manager. Could he have fought at 168, yes. However that division was brand new back then and didnt have money making fights. Hgaler made money by fighting hearns, duran and the top contenders during his era. He might have moved up if that ***** ray leonard would have given him a re-match.

hhascup
12-27-2006, 10:29 PM
Yeah but larry holmes is 6'3 and around 235, Tyson is 220. Not to mention that both of them were way too skilled and big in thier primes, you can't blame hagler for having a smart manager. Could he have fought at 168, yes. However that division was brand new back then and didnt have money making fights. Hgaler made money by fighting hearns, duran and the top contenders during his era. He might have moved up if that ***** ray leonard would have given him a re-match.

He could of fought some Light Heavyweights, the way Greb and Walker did. They still weighed the same.

The Surgeon
12-28-2006, 08:15 AM
Props to Greb and Walker for havin the balls to fight the big guys! But i dont think that sum one should feel obligated to leave there natural weight division coz history dictates it and espesially not to climb the pound for pound ratings, peeps read way to much into the p4p ****! Do any of u guys no where i could see sum footage of Walker? He sounds like a bad ass

hhascup
12-28-2006, 10:37 AM
Props to Greb and Walker for havin the balls to fight the big guys! But i dont think that sum one should feel obligated to leave there natural weight division coz history dictates it and espesially not to climb the pound for pound ratings, peeps read way to much into the p4p ****! Do any of u guys no where i could see sum footage of Walker? He sounds like a bad ass

http://youtube.com/watch?v=3CxjJIOqnVI

http://youtube.com/watch?v=iLLQiZODFTU

I met Walker several times as he use to come to some of the boxing meetings in New Jersey in the late 1970's and early 1980's. I talked to him many times as well but he was a little out of it, if you know what I mean. Freddie Red Cochrane was the same way, and I also met and talked to him many times as well.

The Surgeon
12-28-2006, 01:08 PM
http://youtube.com/watch?v=3CxjJIOqnVI

http://youtube.com/watch?v=iLLQiZODFTU

I met Walker several times as he use to come to some of the boxing meetings in New Jersey in the late 1970's and early 1980's. I talked to him many times as well but he was a little out of it, if you know what I mean. Freddie Red Cochrane was the same way, and I also met and talked to him many times as well.

Thanx for the link bud. The little guy keeps cumin huh! No shame inlosing to those two even if ur a heavyweight! Mad courage! Think i mite try and order sum of his fights, he looks the value for money type! Now ur just rubbin it in Hhascup lol! cheers again

Kid Achilles
12-28-2006, 01:27 PM
I don't care Haglers reasoning for not fighting light heavyweights and heavyweights, the point is he didn't while Greb, Walker, Langford, etc. DID and on a somewhat regular basis.

The point is Greb proved he was good enough to beat decent heavyweights and great light heavyweights like Tunney, Loughran, Tommy Gibbons, and Rosenbloom. Whether or not you think Hagler could beat the best light heavyweights of his era is a moot point. He never proved it, unlike Greb.

hhascup
12-28-2006, 01:36 PM
Thanx for the link bud. The little guy keeps cumin huh! No shame inlosing to those two even if ur a heavyweight! Mad courage! Think i mite try and order sum of his fights, he looks the value for money type! Now ur just rubbin it in Hhascup lol! cheers again

No, I just have met so many of the Greats in all sports. I was the MC and Historian for the Italian American Sports Hall of Fame for several years and I had to entertain people like, Joe DiMaggio, Bruno Sammartino, Vinny Testaverde, Mark Bavaro, Lou Duva, Tommy Lasorda, Bruce Smith, Lawrence Taylor, Phil Simms, Tommy John and Tony La Russa, among others.

I can tell you stories about them that would shock you.

I also introduced all these guys plus, Ali, Tyson, Lewis, Holyfield, Patterson, Holmes, Hopkins, Frazier, Moorer, Mickey Walker, Griffith, Joey Archer, Jake LaMotta, Hamsho, Czyz, Wepner, Graziano, Vito Antuofermo, Pernell Whitaker, Buddy McGirt, Kid Galivan, Tony DeMarco, Johnny Saxton, my good friend, Tippy Larkin, Carlos Ortiz, Ike Williams, Boom Boom Mancini, both Spinks brothers, both Klitschko brothers, McCline, Ruiz, Matthew Saad Muhammad, Dwight Muhammad Qawi, Jose Torres, Eddie Mustafa Muhammad and Earnie Shavers. I will stop their, BUT there is a lot more.

Come to think about it, I am pretty lucky to know and talk to all of the above.

hhascup
12-28-2006, 01:37 PM
I don't care Haglers reasoning for not fighting light heavyweights and heavyweights, the point is he didn't while Greb, Walker, Langford, etc. DID and on a somewhat regular basis.

The point is Greb proved he was good enough to beat decent heavyweights and great light heavyweights like Tunney, Loughran, Tommy Gibbons, and Rosenbloom. Whether or not you think Hagler could beat the best light heavyweights of his era is a moot point. He never proved it, unlike Greb.

I agree 100%

Kid Achilles
12-28-2006, 02:37 PM
It's ridiculous on this forum how people pretty much blatantly admit that the newer guys did not fight as often against good opposition as the older greats, and then try let it slide by saying it's okay as that's just how it's done. If a newer fighter, let's say Mayweather, does not prove himself to be at least the equal of a Greb, Leonard (Ray or Benny), Duran, etc., how can you consider him superior? Why give a fighter a free pass to greatness just because of the fact that in his era he didn't have to fight so often against the best guys to make money? I say if he didn't fight as often against quality opposition he just plain did not prove himself to be as good as someone who did.

If a contemporary fighter wants to be perceived as being as good as Greb, he'd better be fighting the best, frequently, and winning too. He'd better have a good 100 or so fights with dozens of quality names over champions and top contenders. Otherwise he did not prove himself to be as good as the fighter who did these things. Period.

"Guys just don't fight as often" is not a valid excuse. If you want to be acknowledged as being as a good as a certai great, you have to live up to the standards he set, not the standards of your era.

The Surgeon
12-28-2006, 02:37 PM
No, I just have met so many of the Greats in all sports. I was the MC and Historian for the Italian American Sports Hall of Fame for several years and I had to entertain people like, Joe DiMaggio, Bruno Sammartino, Vinny Testaverde, Mark Bavaro, Lou Duva, Tommy Lasorda, Bruce Smith, Lawrence Taylor, Phil Simms, Tommy John and Tony La Russa, among others.

I can tell you stories about them that would shock you.

I also introduced all these guys plus, Ali, Tyson, Lewis, Holyfield, Patterson, Holmes, Hopkins, Frazier, Moorer, Mickey Walker, Griffith, Joey Archer, Jake LaMotta, Hamsho, Czyz, Wepner, Graziano, Vito Antuofermo, Pernell Whitaker, Buddy McGirt, Kid Galivan, Tony DeMarco, Johnny Saxton, my good friend, Tippy Larkin, Carlos Ortiz, Ike Williams, Boom Boom Mancini, both Spinks brothers, both Klitschko brothers, McCline, Ruiz, Matthew Saad Muhammad, Dwight Muhammad Qawi, Jose Torres, Eddie Mustafa Muhammad and Earnie Shavers. I will stop their, BUT there is a lot more.

Come to think about it, I am pretty lucky to know and talk to all of the above.

Damn right ur lucky! Lets hear sum stories then man ......

hhascup
12-28-2006, 06:18 PM
Damn right ur lucky! Lets hear sum stories then man ......

Well back when DiMaggio came and we had to pay him I believe, $5,000, plus hotel, Limo service, etc. I was asked by Lasorda and Duva to ask DiMaggio if he would give out a "Joe DiMaggio" Trophy, to the best Italian American High School baseball player in the State of New Jersey. So I did, and he said, That will be another $1,000. I said, I think you misunderstood me Joe, he said, No I heard what you said and if you want me to do that, it will cost you another $1,000. I went to Duva and Lasorda and told them what DiMaggio had to say and they weren't very happy. They then went over to him themselves. I know he did it But either Tommy or Lou would tell me if they had to pay him.

Vinny Testaverde just won the Heisman Trophy and we honored him. He wanted 10 FREE tickets to the affair, so we gave them to him, plus Limo and Hotel. A couple of days before the affair, he called me and wanted another 10 Free tickets, plus Limo amd hotel. I told him that he had the wrong number and I told him to call Lou.

hardmanbrit
04-12-2008, 11:48 AM
Is it true that Rocky Marciano is the only unbeaten Heavyweight Champion of the World in the entire history of the sport?

dwidsid3d
04-12-2008, 12:25 PM
HOW is that site total bull****.If JOE LOUIS says he believes he could not have beaten MARCIANO at anytime because of his swarming style or if JOE FRAZIER said "if I could beat ALI then I'M sure MARCIANO could,he couldn't do that rope a dope with MARCIANO cause MARCIANO wouldn't have tired",how is that bull**** ,these are documented quotes,SAID YEARS AGO before old age may have affected them but after their carrear ,when lying no longer mattered beacuse they were no loner boxers.That website has been around for a long time and it would have come out if these quotes were untrue,I'M pretty sureJOE LOUIS WAS QUOTED FROM sports illustrated or the RING magazine.What most impressed me about MARCIANO was the fact that most of his opponents were sigificantly bigger,and people always say how old the elite guys he fought were ,hey EZZARD CHARLES was only 32 compared to MARCIANO's 30,MOORE fought 52 more times after that, losing only when he stepped up to hevyweight against PATTERSON and ALI .Another funny thing is when people say he dodged NINO VALDAZ,but most people don't know that ARCHIE MOORE had beaten NINO VALDEZ both times they fought to get his shot at MARCIANO,MOORE actually did pretty good at heavyweight I BELIEVE he won like 10 in a row before MARCIANO.

The Iron Man
04-12-2008, 02:11 PM
I wouldnt really listen to what other fighters say, its mostly out of respect. Ali said Tyson would Beat him and Tyson said Ali would win. Boxers are generally respectful to the past Legends/Greats.

T-97
04-15-2008, 06:54 PM
I like Marciano, but i think that Ali and Louis could have beaten him tbh.

But still, hes great :)

T-97
04-15-2008, 06:57 PM
I wouldnt really listen to what other fighters say, its mostly out of respect. Ali said Tyson would Beat him and Tyson said Ali would win. Boxers are generally respectful to the past Legends/Greats.

I agree, i think a prime Louis could of beaten him. All fighters are respectful of other greats. Like you pointed out the Ali-Tyson thing where both said they would have lost

randy johnson
04-21-2008, 06:03 AM
You know Rocco how hard it is for you knowing that there hasn't a white heavyweight champion from America in about 40 years.People like you who still live in the past talking about how some 180 pound cruiser weight is the greatest heavyweight of all time.Do you see how funny that is?Rocky Marciano wasn't a heavyweight period.I dont care how you try to justify that he was the fact is the minimum heavyweight weight is 205.
The fighters Marciano fought for the most part weighed either 180 pounds like himself or were smaller like Ezzard Charles and Archie Moore who both started their careers at 160 and stayed at that weight class for 7 or 8 years.Can you name any 220 plus black heavyweights that Marciano fought?I know none of you can since he never fought any but some how Marciano is the greastest heavyweight right?
Marciano was slow,weak and unskilled even for a 180 pounder.Marciano a hard puncher?Because he took 8 rounds to knock out a 40 or so year Archie Moore who as a just typed was a natural middleweight not to mention at middleweight in Moore's prime he was knocked out by other middleweights in one round.It is like somebody saying Tye Fields is the hardest puncher of all time because he pads his record by knocking out bums.
This is 2008 and i thought we would be over stuff like this.Rocky Marciano is the most overrated boxer in boxing history by far.He was lucky to have fought in a era where the italian mafia control boxing and the so called heavyweights were so small.Rocky Marciano isn't even a top 100 cruiserweight of all time so get over it.

duffgun
04-21-2008, 08:36 AM
Rocky Marciano isn't even a top 100 cruiserweight of all time so get over it.

lol thats a good one

The Iron Man
04-21-2008, 03:23 PM
Rocky Marciano wasn't a heavyweight period.I dont care how you try to justify that he was the fact is the minimum heavyweight weight is 205.
The fighters Marciano fought for the most part weighed either 180 pounds like himself or were smaller like Ezzard Charles and Archie Moore who both started their careers at 160 and stayed at that weight class for 7 or 8 years.Can you name any 220 plus black heavyweights that Marciano fought?I know none of you can since he never fought any but some how Marciano is the greastest heavyweight right?

Jerry Humphrey Jackson - 254lbs
Johnny Shkor - 220.5lbs
Bill Wilson - 229.5lbs

Minimum is 200+lbs for heavyweight

AntonTheMeh
04-21-2008, 04:47 PM
the minimum of 200+ was set in the last twenty years.

The Iron Man
04-21-2008, 04:56 PM
what the **** would you know about it? YOU'RE AN IDIOT, all you do is worship that ****ing moron rapist son of a *****, all you tyson fans are MORONS! :haha:

:lol1: :rofl:

**** off u ***, im supporting Marciano. My arse crack knows more about boxing than u do.

AntonTheMeh
04-21-2008, 10:38 PM
funny thing is I've heard some people say that he was 5-9,the 5-10 was being generous.so the fact that that he was a 5-9 180 heavyweight should give him more acclaim.

Jim Jeffries
04-23-2008, 02:26 PM
funny thing is I've heard some people say that he was 5-9,the 5-10 was being generous.so the fact that that he was a 5-9 180 heavyweight should give him more acclaim.

Exactly, and people put him down for fighting LHWs, but a 180-185 lb guy beating arguably the greatest LHW ever in Ezzard Charles twice should count for something.

Ziggy Stardust
04-23-2008, 06:22 PM
**** off u ***, im supporting Marciano. My arse crack knows more about boxing than u do.

No **** dude. I personly think a Tyson - Marciano matchup is a pretty even fight. For this troll to imply you're a Tyson nuthugger is so far off-base it's rediculous. I've had many a convo with you about Tyson and you're NO nuthgger.

Poet

The Iron Man
04-23-2008, 09:03 PM
Cheers man, some people dnt have a clue especialy what i said was backing that marciano had fought some big guys

popkins99
04-23-2008, 10:59 PM
You know Rocco how hard it is for you knowing that there hasn't a white heavyweight champion from America in about 40 years.People like you who still live in the past talking about how some 180 pound cruiser weight is the greatest heavyweight of all time.Do you see how funny that is?Rocky Marciano wasn't a heavyweight period.I dont care how you try to justify that he was the fact is the minimum heavyweight weight is 205.
The fighters Marciano fought for the most part weighed either 180 pounds like himself or were smaller like Ezzard Charles and Archie Moore who both started their careers at 160 and stayed at that weight class for 7 or 8 years.Can you name any 220 plus black heavyweights that Marciano fought?I know none of you can since he never fought any but some how Marciano is the greastest heavyweight right?
Marciano was slow,weak and unskilled even for a 180 pounder.Marciano a hard puncher?Because he took 8 rounds to knock out a 40 or so year Archie Moore who as a just typed was a natural middleweight not to mention at middleweight in Moore's prime he was knocked out by other middleweights in one round.It is like somebody saying Tye Fields is the hardest puncher of all time because he pads his record by knocking out bums.
This is 2008 and i thought we would be over stuff like this.Rocky Marciano is the most overrated boxer in boxing history by far.He was lucky to have fought in a era where the italian mafia control boxing and the so called heavyweights were so small.Rocky Marciano isn't even a top 100 cruiserweight of all time so get over it.

http://www.coneccionlamatanza.com.ar/comercio/bp/imag/black-power-button.jpgMY BROTHER!:rofl:

the italian mafia couldnt care less if rocky was of italian origin you idiot ****! the mob's main goal was to make money, not make sure their paisan ended up being an atg!

and why the **** should we get over this stuff??? this is part of boxing history, idiot!

hate on marciano all you want randy, it aint gon change the fact that rocky is one of the best heavyweight fighters of all time. :la:

btw, great thread rocco. :fing02:

Ziggy Stardust
04-24-2008, 10:31 AM
You know Rocco how hard it is for you knowing that there hasn't a white heavyweight champion from America in about 40 years.People like you who still live in the past talking about how some 180 pound cruiser weight is the greatest heavyweight of all time.Do you see how funny that is?Rocky Marciano wasn't a heavyweight period.I dont care how you try to justify that he was the fact is the minimum heavyweight weight is 205.
The fighters Marciano fought for the most part weighed either 180 pounds like himself or were smaller like Ezzard Charles and Archie Moore who both started their careers at 160 and stayed at that weight class for 7 or 8 years.Can you name any 220 plus black heavyweights that Marciano fought?I know none of you can since he never fought any but some how Marciano is the greastest heavyweight right?
Marciano was slow,weak and unskilled even for a 180 pounder.Marciano a hard puncher?Because he took 8 rounds to knock out a 40 or so year Archie Moore who as a just typed was a natural middleweight not to mention at middleweight in Moore's prime he was knocked out by other middleweights in one round.It is like somebody saying Tye Fields is the hardest puncher of all time because he pads his record by knocking out bums.
This is 2008 and i thought we would be over stuff like this.Rocky Marciano is the most overrated boxer in boxing history by far.He was lucky to have fought in a era where the italian mafia control boxing and the so called heavyweights were so small.Rocky Marciano isn't even a top 100 cruiserweight of all time so get over it.

Dude. 185 may not be a Heavyweight now but it was then. Only a limited mind without the ability to think dynamically would think Sonny Liston was the world's first Heavyweight champion. It's shallow brained morons like you that give boxing fans a bad name.

Poet

AntonTheMeh
04-24-2008, 02:47 PM
as far as a match with mike and rocky,if rocky deals with mike's early onslaught i could see rocky ko'ing him in twelve[would look kinda like his fights vs holy].but that's a big if. tyson was absolutely awesome,and the guys that beat him where taller,i find it hard to say that a slower smaller man could beat him.then again there was only one marciano.

TommyGunn.
04-25-2008, 08:17 AM
Marciano would not have lived with the heavyweights from the early 70's onwards. He wasn't big enough.

Thunder Lips
04-26-2008, 02:24 PM
Again, people shouldn't get to caught up in the 187 lb thing when judging Marciano. He was a natural heavyweight who weighed 210-215 when he was playing baseball, he intentionally dropped weight and muscle mass when training for fights because the popular belief at the time was that too many muscles effected your stamina and we know how workrate minded Rocky was. There was a popular study around the time that revealed the lighter heavy weights had more natural power than the bigger ones, so you didn't see that many heavy big men than..in any sports really. Despite fighting below his natural weight I don't think anyone could argue he lost power, he is still one of the hardest hitters in history; he built a custom 300 lb bag for ****'s sake. Who cares if he only weighed 187 at fight time?

sterling
04-27-2008, 12:15 PM
Again, people shouldn't get to caught up in the 187 lb thing when judging Marciano. He was a natural heavyweight who weighed 210-215 when he was playing baseball, he intentionally dropped weight and muscle mass when training for fights because the popular belief at the time was that too many muscles effected your stamina and we know how workrate minded Rocky was. There was a popular study around the time that revealed the lighter heavy weights had more natural power than the bigger ones, so you didn't see that many heavy big men than..in any sports really. Despite fighting below his natural weight I don't think anyone could argue he lost power, he is still one of the hardest hitters in history; he built a custom 300 lb bag for ****'s sake. Who cares if he only weighed 187 at fight time?

wow i wudnet mind that i wonder if u can stil buy them now hehe.
Rocky marciano didnt have a very long career and didnt have alot of names on his record thats the only bad thing about his career.
But he was a gret fighter none the less.