View Full Version : Ali-Foreman II...in 1975 before Frazier


K-DOGG
05-29-2006, 12:24 PM
Who wins and why? Discuss. :D

Kid Canada
05-29-2006, 01:10 PM
Honestly, I`ve always thought that if they fought again Big George would win. Simply because physically he was very much in his prime the first time they fought. I always figured he`d be smarter and more patient the second time around. But then again, it was never a good idea to bet against Ali.

Abe Attell
05-29-2006, 01:29 PM
George said he thought that if the fight wasn't postponed the first time, due to his cut, he would of probably won; when George wanted to leave to go back to America, they said "Nobody leaves until the fight is over"...that weighs on your mind, not to mention that lots of things were going wrong with him and it seemed nobody was rooting for him.

I also question if the early morning start time took something out of him.

George had the physical ability to beat Ali, but it would of helped to had a better trainer and corner.

In my opinion, George fought better fighting for the gold medal than he did in some of his other fights leading up to and after winning the title.

In the Gold medal fight, despite having little experience, he actually knew how to use the jab as a weapon...later, he would decline by not using the jab...he also didn't know how to pace himself, another problem I have with those that trained him...and his blocking punches, just terrible.

His trainers wasted his natural talent

Southpaw Stinger
05-29-2006, 01:32 PM
I'd favour Foreman in a rematch at that time. Apparently Ali avoided a rematch with Foreman so that must say somthing.

Abe Attell
05-29-2006, 01:36 PM
Yup, George asked for the remtach, but Ali kept him waiting.

I think George needed that fight right away to prevent his psyche from further decline.

Brockton Lip
05-29-2006, 06:46 PM
Ali would win again I believe. Either by UD or late KO. Foreman would be more careful and will be more hesitant to throw punches (as has been proven in his fights after the Rumble); Ali would outbox the less agressive Foreman.

Brassangel
05-29-2006, 06:48 PM
I just don't see Ali getting into that kind of mental and physical shape again in 1975. Dundee even said that in Zaire, that was the best he ever saw Ali prepare and fight. He would have taken that fighter over the tap-dancer anyday. Had they fought a rematch, with George better prepared, and in a facility that wasn't 1000 degrees, he could probably take Ali out.

Dempsey 1919
05-29-2006, 09:22 PM
Ali UD 15.

dansweeney
05-29-2006, 09:43 PM
Foreman would have conserved better and battered Ali into submission by the 8th round, possibly killing him in the ring

blockhead
05-29-2006, 09:48 PM
if foreman and his corner werent all idiots at the time then ali would have been the one asking for a rematch. i have never seen a fighter fight a more stupid fight than george did in that one.

Heckler
05-30-2006, 01:38 AM
A fully trained and prepared Ali? If he managed to get into the same shape as he was months earlier then i would definately give the nod to Ali. Im not sure if a rematch was possible in 1975? I thought it was 76?

Anyway, if the fight happened at that time i would give it to Ali. Reasons being... George Foreman was never the same after that fight with Ali, he was tentative and didn't really go after his man in the same fashion he did Pre-Ali. This is shown in the fight against Jimmy Young, Foreman was very tentative and was not ontop of his man the same way he was against Ali who even in 74' was just as slick as Jimmy. Foreman was a more conservative, measured fighter and it didn't work for him as he didn't have the skills to facilitate such a style. Ali with superior speed and technical prowess picks him apart as evidenced in the first round of the Rumble in the Jungle. Mentally i don't know how George would handle a rematch, the previous fight would be playing on his mind and i don't think the effect of this would be positive whatsoever.

I Don't think this plays out like the previous match. I think George this time around would apply less pressure, be more conservative and as a result Ali the superior ring general would outpoint him over 15 rounds.

Southpaw Stinger
05-30-2006, 08:19 AM
A fully trained and prepared Ali? If he managed to get into the same shape as he was months earlier then i would definately give the nod to Ali. Im not sure if a rematch was possible in 1975? I thought it was 76?

Anyway, if the fight happened at that time i would give it to Ali. Reasons being... George Foreman was never the same after that fight with Ali, he was tentative and didn't really go after his man in the same fashion he did Pre-Ali. This is shown in the fight against Jimmy Young, Foreman was very tentative and was not ontop of his man the same way he was against Ali who even in 74' was just as slick as Jimmy. Foreman was a more conservative, measured fighter and it didn't work for him as he didn't have the skills to facilitate such a style. Ali with superior speed and technical prowess picks him apart as evidenced in the first round of the Rumble in the Jungle. Mentally i don't know how George would handle a rematch, the previous fight would be playing on his mind and i don't think the effect of this would be positive whatsoever.

I Don't think this plays out like the previous match. I think George this time around would apply less pressure, be more conservative and as a result Ali the superior ring general would outpoint him over 15 rounds.

I disagree. I think that because Foreman was unable to get that rematch with Ali was the reason he became less of a fighter in the latter half of the 70's. He was still beating fighters but was still unable to get another title shot and the first Ali fight was playing on his mind.

If he was given the chance to prove himself against Ali in a rematch I'm sure we would see a different side to Foreman. He would train harder than ever before and be focussed on his goal - only this time Foreman won't fall for the rope a dope and Ali will be forced to traded more with Foreman.

If you look at Ali after the rumble in the jungle he wasn't nearly as impressive either. Guys like Wepner lasting in there with him and Ali spending more times on the ropes.

So I can see that in a rematch Foreman will be the more prepared physically and mentally and more detirmined to win.

Cockyb
05-30-2006, 09:29 AM
im surprised so many ppl think foreman wud win, i think it makes more sense dat ali wud win by a decision, cos foreman wud be hesitant to throw incase he gets tired etc, which wil give ali more confidence to throw more shots and nick rounds! and foreman as he takes more n more shots as rounds go by get even more tentaive and becaose of alis chin he wont b able to knok out ali with a single shot like he did with moorer!

dats just my opinion tho!

im not rulin out a foreman win, as he was younger and cud impose his strenth on ali etc!

but stil ALI UD!!

safe

K-DOGG
05-30-2006, 12:21 PM
I must say there are some very well thought out responses on both sides of the coin. Thank all of you for your input so far. The reason I said "1975-before Frazier" is quite simply because that fight essentially finished Ali and Frazier. Muhammad showed flashes of his former prowess after the Thrilla; but only flashes. Maybe it would have been better for me to propose that Ali and Foreman rematched in the "Thrilla in Manilla" instead of Ali meeting Frazier for the rubber match.

Anyway, I wanted to pose the question because so many posters have such a variety of responses to Ali-Foreman I and it's affects; and I just got to thinking, okay...what if they did rematch in 1975 about a year after the original. Foreman didn't fight at all in 1975....except for that abhortive thing in Toronto, to quote Howard Cosell....and Ali took what was supposed to be an easy fight againt Wepner, which wasn't, legitimate contender who rocked George the next year, Ron Lyle, and perenial contender Joe Bugner before squaring off against Frazier for a third time....a fight, incidentally, that Ali thought would be easy, cause he felt Joe was shot by then.

I'll hold off on sharing my synopsis for now; but wanted to better clarify why 1975 for those who were questioning. Please, keep it up, all of you are offering a little something different than I've thought about....and a few of you are thinking along the same lines as myself.

Thank you very much and continue.....Who Wins?......And Why?

JerryJigsaw
05-30-2006, 12:27 PM
Foreman's power is completely overrated, he could never KO Ali cos' all his KOs were against weak chinned fighters lie Norton and Frazier.

Southpaw Stinger
05-30-2006, 01:15 PM
Foreman's power is completely overrated, he could never KO Ali cos' all his KOs were against weak chinned fighters lie Norton and Frazier.

Since when did Frazier have a weak chin?

Brockton Lip
05-30-2006, 02:17 PM
Frazier has more of a heart than a chin. His chin is possibly overrated. Its his heart thats great.

hemichromis
05-30-2006, 02:20 PM
judging by the jimmy young fight foreman would have lost on points, he was so scared of getting out of breath he would never open up.

but if foreman had got his act together and sorted out his head he could have beaten ali, the problem is he didn't do this till his second career

Abe Attell
05-30-2006, 04:20 PM
Foreman needed a better trainer...a trainer that could not only show him how to be a better boxer, but prepare him mentally...the problem is, even though there are so many trainers, there are only a few that are actually really good.

rocco1252
05-30-2006, 04:35 PM
It doesnt matter that it was 100 + degree's, it doesnt matter that Ali put off the fight and it was postponed due to a foreman cut. Ali was so mentally strong he could have beaten anyone provided he trained for it and wasnt too old hence the Holmes fight. If they both fought again Ali in my eyes would do 10 times better than he did when they fought the first time. Ali was in great shape and knew from the start if he got under Foremans skin he could win and thats just what he did, and you actually think Foreman was mentally prepared after their first fight? No way thats why he had to take 10 years off, Ali injured him inside ever since that loss and if they fought again he would fight out of despiration and end up the same way.

Yaman
05-30-2006, 05:14 PM
Ali was, and would always be too slick for Foreman. His brilliant movement confused Foreman, and most importantly, he could take Foreman's bombs. Foreman was missing Ali because he was a ****ty puncher, and ALi was great at avoiding Foreman. I dont care what trainer he would go to, there was no way he could become a good puncher and all of a sudden nail Ali all night, or even knock him out!! Styles make fights, only they have the physical ability and Muhammad Ali had all the thing to beat George Foreman.

dansweeney
05-30-2006, 05:45 PM
Ali was, and would always be too slick for Foreman. His brilliant movement confused Foreman, and most importantly, he could take Foreman's bombs. Foreman was missing Ali because he was a ****ty puncher, and ALi was great at avoiding Foreman. I dont care what trainer he would go to, there was no way he could become a good puncher and all of a sudden nail Ali all night, or even knock him out!! Styles make fights, only they have the physical ability and Muhammad Ali had all the thing to beat George Foreman.

brilliant movement? in that fight he laid on the ropes and covered up for 8 rounds till foreman tired out. he didn't move at all

Heckler
05-30-2006, 06:56 PM
I disagree. I think that because Foreman was unable to get that rematch with Ali was the reason he became less of a fighter in the latter half of the 70's. He was still beating fighters but was still unable to get another title shot and the first Ali fight was playing on his mind.

If he was given the chance to prove himself against Ali in a rematch I'm sure we would see a different side to Foreman. He would train harder than ever before and be focussed on his goal - only this time Foreman won't fall for the rope a dope and Ali will be forced to traded more with Foreman.

If you look at Ali after the rumble in the jungle he wasn't nearly as impressive either. Guys like Wepner lasting in there with him and Ali spending more times on the ropes.

So I can see that in a rematch Foreman will be the more prepared physically and mentally and more detirmined to win.

I can see how you would believe this. However I don't think Foreman would be mentally prepared to win, i think the Foreman that would step between those ropes insecure and conscious of his lack of stamina which was blown out of proportion . From what ive read and seen the only mental effects the rumble in the jungle had on George were adverse. I can see this playing out very similar to the Jimmy Young fight, George is tentative and fights at a measured pace giving Ali the oppurtunity to control the flow of the fight and outbox George. Look at the segments of rumble where Ali is off the ropes, even when George is storming towards Ali trying to take his headoff he gets picked apart.

People are saying that George Fought a stupid fight? He fought the the fight that suited his styles and abilities best. George Foreman barely had any sembelence of technique, he was wild, inaccurate, had poor timing and was essentially the epitome of a slugger. What was he to do? Fight more measured? He just didn't have the technical prowess to pull this off against Ali. The best option for Foreman was to get ontop of Ali as fast as possible, cut the ring and try to take Ali's head off. He tried this but Ali resorted to the rope a dope and in this situation George did exactly as he should've... he was presented with a prime target lying on the ropes and he tried to kill it.

Foreman didn't loose because he was stupid or ill prepared he lost because he met a man that had the correct combination of strengths to exploit his Weaknesses. How many other fighters would of survived that assault on the ropes?

You are right... Ali never looked as sharp after that fight, but if he did manage to get into the same shape in the rematch which i suspect he would i would definately give the nod to Ali.

Dempsey 1919
05-30-2006, 11:16 PM
Ali was, and would always be too slick for Foreman. His brilliant movement confused Foreman, and most importantly, he could take Foreman's bombs. Foreman was missing Ali because he was a ****ty puncher, and ALi was great at avoiding Foreman. I dont care what trainer he would go to, there was no way he could become a good puncher and all of a sudden nail Ali all night, or even knock him out!! Styles make fights, only they have the physical ability and Muhammad Ali had all the thing to beat George Foreman.

Wow, I'm suprised! I thought you were gonna say that Foreman would beat Ali all over the ring and knock him out in the middle rounds or something.

Yaman
05-31-2006, 04:35 AM
brilliant movement? in that fight he laid on the ropes and covered up for 8 rounds till foreman tired out. he didn't move at all


Yes, but when Foreman backed off a bit, Ali would throw tricky punches and move, he did that in the first rounds aswell. But yes, he was on the ropes most of the times.

Wow, I'm suprised! I thought you were gonna say that Foreman would beat Ali all over the ring and knock him out in the middle rounds or something.

I've always liked Ali(People dont know). And im not gonna lie about this fight, i really believe Ali would always win.

Frazier's 15th round
05-31-2006, 07:47 AM
Aside from all the fouling Ali did in The Rumble, he completely dominated Foreman. Foreman barely gets off a clean shot all night. Pretty much every punch grazes, misses entirely, or hits the gloves of Ali.

K-DOGG
05-31-2006, 03:57 PM
Okay, here we go...my synopsis.

For those of you who picked Ali to win the rematch....I am in agreement. The Rumble in the Jungle did a number on Big George's ego and self-confidence. In my opinion, he WOULD have been more patient and tactical in a rematch; but in there lies the rub. George was no where near the technician Ali was. He knew how to cut off the ring well, it's true. However, that was for the purpose of cornering an opponent and blasting him into oblivion....something he'd tried and failed against Ali in the first fight.

In a rematch, George would still employ the cutting off the ring tactics because Ali would come out aggressive as he did in round 1 of the orignal encounter and capitalize on the primary weakness he found in George's defensive armour....his inability to block Ali's lead right hand, which was one of Ali's best punches.

In a rematch, I can easily see Ali slamming home that right, tying up George when he needed to, screwing with his head in the clinches as before, getting George to abandon his game plan and tire him out down the stretch, puffing him up around the eyes and maybe even cutting him. Anybody who's ever trained George had trouble making him listen to instruction, George always thought he knew what was best....and in his second career you can see evidence of George's frustration in the Shulz fight as he tells one of his cornermen to "Shut UP!" after a particularly bad round. Gil Clancy has said "you can't tell George anything, he's going to do what he wants to do".

Also, Ali had one of the best chins ever in the heavyweight division. George will not land the "one big one" and put him away. The only way for George to stop Ali was to land hard and land consistantly....and, quite frankly, George just wasn't that good. He was a great monster; but he was no leading man....that was Ali's job.

This fight would be won by Muhammad Ali by either wide UD or late round TKO....in my opinion, of course.


Thank all of you again for your participation and insight.

Peace.

hellfire508
06-01-2006, 03:48 AM
Ali by stoppage, in about the 13th. Foreman wouldn't waste punches as much, and Ali would dance. Ali was an excellent counter-puncher, and still had a lot of hand speed in 75. Foreman would still get nailed all night with his open defence. The way I see it - a fairly boring fight, with Ali leading the exchanges some rounds, and counter-punching in others. Foreman tries to cut of the ring but struggles to. Remember: Foreman was mentally destroyed post-Zaire. This would play a mjaor factor. The ref stops the action in round 13, when Foreman is exhausted (after getting pumelled a bit, he would get careless again) and getting nailed.