View Full Version : Most overrated boxer in history?


FightNight32
05-21-2006, 06:50 PM
Who is the most overrated boxer in history?

RAESAAD
05-21-2006, 06:53 PM
Mike Tyson is one.His bad years out weighed the good by miles.I mean he was always a threat but was not really good for the past15 years.

leff
05-21-2006, 07:50 PM
tyson by far

Dempsey 1919
05-21-2006, 07:56 PM
marciano, then tyson.

RockyMarcianofan00
05-21-2006, 08:07 PM
marciano, then tyson.
I don't understand why he's overrated
Hardly anyone knows anything about him including yourself

Sonny Liston is very overrated
as well as
Lennox Lewis

Dempsey 1919
05-21-2006, 08:40 PM
Sonny Liston is very overrated

that's the dumbest thing i heard you say ever.

Verstyle
05-21-2006, 08:44 PM
lets all remember tyson only lost 6 times in 20years. sooooooo calling him overrated is hard to swallow

Brockton Lip
05-21-2006, 09:20 PM
Tyson. Mayweather Jr. is on his way to becoming most overrated.

aljon
05-21-2006, 09:32 PM
I don't understand why he's overrated
Hardly anyone knows anything about him including yourself

Sonny Liston is very overrated
as well as
Lennox Lewis
IMO Lennox Lewis was underrated,
Overrated: As of recently, Tyson, Mayweather, Ricky Hatton, Miguel Cotto, Valuev etc...

Piggu
05-21-2006, 09:35 PM
Mike Tyson.....

gandhalf
05-21-2006, 09:51 PM
Tyson maybe. His disproportionate amount of media attention was phenomenal. Ali also had incredible media attention but unlike Tyson, He was one of the P4P best in boxing history.

RockyMarcianofan00
05-22-2006, 12:16 AM
that's the dumbest thing i heard you say ever.
I doubht it considering he quit twice against Ali, granted this was basically the only time he quit

also he fought at probably a weaker time then Marciano, because i know thats gunna be ur first defense that he was better then "my boy marciano". Marciano's big names were better then Liston's, the only big names (that were probably better then marciano's competition) that liston really even fought were Muhammad Ali and Clevland Williams and Floyd Patterson. It's also widely believed that many of Liston's fights were fixed. I don't 100% believe them but it makes you wonder. I don't have any real proof but its widely known that Liston had mob ties and at that time the mob was heavy into boxing. Also his Punch is very overrated, now once again you'd attack Marciano but i'd also like to point out that they both used the same ounce glove and Liston never did near the damage that Marciano did.

He also lost to a man who he outweighed by 15lbs, this same man had a less then stelar record.

So yes i'd say liston is overrated because he's only considered good because he gave a very green Ali trouble and thats only basically because Ali had some sort of chemical in his eyes (most likely one of Liston's old tricks).

RAESAAD
05-22-2006, 12:22 AM
Well it is obvious from the # of people that said Tyson......He is a top 5 overrated guy.Lennox Lewis is not by no means whoever said that earlier.If anything he is underrated.Lewis is a top 10 Alltime HW. :boxing:

RockyMarcianofan00
05-22-2006, 12:26 AM
Well it is obvious from the # of people that said Tyson......He is a top 5 overrated guy.Lennox Lewis is not by no means whoever said that earlier.If anything he is underrated.Lewis is a top 10 Alltime HW. :boxing:
Lennox Lewis i said was an overrated one only because he's overrated by many

others underrate him

on my list he is top25(between 14-18) but many people put him as high as 7 on there top10 list.

Dempsey 1919
05-22-2006, 12:36 AM
I doubht it considering he quit twice against Ali, granted this was basically the only time he quit

also he fought at probably a weaker time then Marciano, because i know thats gunna be ur first defense that he was better then "my boy marciano". Marciano's big names were better then Liston's, the only big names (that were probably better then marciano's competition) that liston really even fought were Muhammad Ali and Clevland Williams and Floyd Patterson. It's also widely believed that many of Liston's fights were fixed. I don't 100% believe them but it makes you wonder. I don't have any real proof but its widely known that Liston had mob ties and at that time the mob was heavy into boxing. Also his Punch is very overrated, now once again you'd attack Marciano but i'd also like to point out that they both used the same ounce glove and Liston never did near the damage that Marciano did.

He also lost to a man who he outweighed by 15lbs, this same man had a less then stelar record.

So yes i'd say liston is overrated because he's only considered good because he gave a very green Ali trouble and thats only basically because Ali had some sort of chemical in his eyes (most likely one of Liston's old tricks).

i don't know where you get that liston is overrated. nobody here thinks that liston was ****. he's known for getting beat by ali and that's why people think he sucks. but if you look at how he terrorized the division. again, do you think liston would have lost to any of the people marciano fought, lol! liston did damage, fool. do your research. liston has knocked people out with jabs. has marciano knocked people out with one or two punches in the whole fight? liston wore larger gloves than marciano. he was the first boxer to use 10-12 oz gloves, so his punches were padded. honestly sometimes your cool but othertimes like right now you don't make any sense.

RockyMarcianofan00
05-22-2006, 12:42 AM
i don't know where you get that liston is overrated. nobody here thinks that liston was ****. he's known for getting beat by ali and that's why people think he sucks. but if you look at how he terrorized the division. again, do you think liston would have lost to any of the people marciano fought, lol! liston did damage, fool. do your research. liston has knocked people out with jabs. has marciano knocked people out with one or two punches in the whole fight? liston wore larger gloves than marciano. he was the first boxer to use 10-12 oz gloves, so his punches were padded. honestly sometimes your cool but othertimes like right now you don't make any sense.

I never said Liston was ****, i think he's overrated. For Example I said lennox lewis was overrated, not to say he wasn't good but he doesn't deserve top 10 although he should be top20 (around 15). Liston was good but you putting him at number 2 isn't good. I think him closer to 13.

Marciano used 10oz gloves more so then any other oz gloves. And as far as i know so did liston, i didn't even think that 12 oz gloves are used in pro fights (i still think that). Marciano used mostly 10oz if less maybe 8 oz but even so only for a few fights. the standard glove from the 50's to today (as far as a i'm aware) has always been 10 oz

yea i know sometimes i'm cool other times i'm *****y, my friends say that alot. lol

Dempsey 1919
05-22-2006, 12:56 AM
I never said Liston was ****, i think he's overrated. For Example I said lennox lewis was overrated, not to say he wasn't good but he doesn't deserve top 10 although he should be top20 (around 15). Liston was good but you putting him at number 2 isn't good. I think him closer to 13.

Marciano used 10oz gloves more so then any other oz gloves. And as far as i know so did liston, i didn't even think that 12 oz gloves are used in pro fights (i still think that). Marciano used mostly 10oz if less maybe 8 oz but even so only for a few fights. the standard glove from the 50's to today (as far as a i'm aware) has always been 10 oz

yea i know sometimes i'm cool other times i'm *****y, my friends say that alot. lol

my point is that nobody here thinks liston was that good anyway. so even if you don't either, you still can't say he's overrated cause nobody overrates him. everyone thinks he sucks.

RockyMarcianofan00
05-22-2006, 01:02 AM
well whatever then

SuzieQ49
05-22-2006, 01:06 AM
neither liston nor marciano was underated. both are ATG top 10 heavies of all time.



* can anyone imagine marciano nailing tall ted williams with a left hook and watching him fall like an oak tree like carmine vingo?? sorry sounds dick, but ted williams was one

Dempsey 1919
05-22-2006, 01:07 AM
neither liston nor marciano was underated. both are ATG top 10 heavies of all time.



* can anyone imagine marciano nailing tall ted williams with a left hook and watching him fall like an oak tree like carmine vingo?? sorry sounds dick, but ted williams was one

IMO marciano was top 15 not ten.

Hous
05-22-2006, 01:11 AM
IMO marciano was top 15 not ten.

IMO Marciano is top 5 easy.

Of modern Heavies I would say Rahman is overrated.

RockyMarcianofan00
05-22-2006, 01:12 AM
IMO Marciano is top 5 easy.
yea thats pretty fair

Dempsey 1919
05-22-2006, 01:17 AM
IMO Marciano is top 5 easy.

Of modern Heavies I would say Rahman is overrated.

wow, that's biased. i could name 5 hw's that was better. ali, holmes, louis, foreman, tyson and others. :rolleyes:

RockyMarcianofan00
05-22-2006, 03:13 AM
wow, that's biased. i could name 5 hw's that was better. ali, holmes, louis, foreman, tyson and others. :rolleyes:
IMO
Top 5
Louis
Ali
Foreman
Frazier
Marciano

i guess Marciano could be put at 6 (thats where bert sugar had him)
even though i'll always have Marciano at 1 I figure thats also pretty biased so I "revised it" With other fighters i feel accomplished great things

I feel Marciano would be put at 1 or 2 more easily had he faced better opposition and people saw his talent but what ifs will always be what ifs.

TexDeuce
05-22-2006, 03:51 AM
IMO
Top 5
Louis
Ali
Foreman
Frazier
Marciano

i guess Marciano could be put at 6 (thats where bert sugar had him)
even though i'll always have Marciano at 1 I figure thats also pretty biased so I "revised it" With other fighters i feel accomplished great things

I feel Marciano would be put at 1 or 2 more easily had he faced better opposition and people saw his talent but what ifs will always be what ifs.

Yeah I wish he could of faced some better guys too because I am sure he would of knocked 'em the F out. He was good, top 10 for sure.

Heckler
05-22-2006, 03:57 AM
Marciano, i often see him at in positions 1, 2, 3. I can't see how that can be justified at all. I have no quarms with him at 5, 6 or anywhere later in the top 10. I like him alot and respect his ability but putting him in the top 3 is definately overrating him.

Mike Tyson. Everytime this man stepped up to a fighter willing to fight him, creating an enviroment of adversity he folded. This cannot be exscused especially when considering his 'greatness' relative to the other ATG's. My generation unfortunately tend to have him in the top 5, i have him at 10 and i think thats pretty damn fair.

hellfire508
05-22-2006, 07:44 AM
I think Tyson is overrated by the general public, but underrated by alot of die-hard boxing fans. Of course, he has a lot of nuthuggers who claim to know alot about the sport, who also think he is invincible.

But basically - overrated by public, underrated by boxing historians etc., who give him no chance against some older fighters.

Yaman
05-22-2006, 09:42 AM
Marciano, i often see him at in positions 1, 2, 3. I can't see how that can be justified at all. I have no quarms with him at 5, 6 or anywhere later in the top 10. I like him alot and respect his ability but putting him in the top 3 is definately overrating him.

Mike Tyson. Everytime this man stepped up to a fighter willing to fight him, creating an enviroment of adversity he folded. This cannot be exscused especially when considering his 'greatness' relative to the other ATG's. My generation unfortunately tend to have him in the top 5, i have him at 10 and i think thats pretty damn fair.

Ruddock fought back HARD twice and gave Tyson a beating a couple of times. He came back to stop him and win *****. Frans Botha fought back HARD, Tyson came back to stop him. James Tillis, Mcneely, Ribalta...i can go on. They all fought back and Tyson beat them. When he lost, he lost to the better man, Tyson was better than Ruddock, he beat him even though he fought back. Douglass was better than Tyson that night etc.

Oh ya, most overrated HW's ever are jack Johnson and Sonny Liston.

Da Iceman
05-22-2006, 09:44 AM
Tyson. Mayweather Jr. is on his way to becoming most overrated.
mayweather is far from overrated.

Da Iceman
05-22-2006, 09:45 AM
IMO Marciano is top 5 easy.

Of modern Heavies I would say Rahman is overrated.
rahman isnt the best technical fighter so yea he's overrated. i think his power is too.

Brassangel
05-22-2006, 11:08 AM
Tyson is overrated by the nuthuggers, whereas I put him between 8-10 usually. I think where most people get confused is in the fact that he was "potentially" the greatest waste of talent the sport had ever seen. And it's true what Yaman said; there were lots of guys who fought back and created adversity for Tyson and he still won. The problem, however, is that Tyson was a quitter once he had become champion. He simply didn't care anymore. This is why I place him at the bottom of the top ten list.

I think Jack Johnson is given WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYYYYYY too much credit for his fight with Jeffries, even though Jeffries was gone for three years and had to shed about a thousand pounds to get into a respectable fighting form again. Other than that, Johnson was great.

Marciano is underrated because people think that his era was stains. That's unfair. It's not like he chose to be in prime fighting form during a time when Louis was a ghost, and Patterson and Liston hadn't yet arrived. Marciano took on all comers, often bigger than himself, and he won. The man had a huge heart, worked hard, and had the best P4P punching power of anyone.

Lennox Lewis is underrated. I think, given his size and skill, he could have done well in almost any era.

I think that Foreman's career parallels Tyson's in many ways, but Foreman is given a lot more credit because he avoided a lot of the antics Tyson fell into. Foreman beat up a ton of tomato cans to earn a shot at the title, and then won the belt convincingly, giving him an aura of invincibility. (same as Tyson) When Foreman simply ran out of gas against Ali, people forgot about him, and Foreman became a quitter (eventually leaving the sport all together), same as Tyson after Douglas. Tyson did come back to win the belt after his prison layoff, whereas Foreman waited until he was in his 40's. Suddenly Foreman is a hero, and Tyson's a joke. Even so, I think that both men are slightly overrated.

Brockton Lip
05-22-2006, 12:11 PM
IMO marciano was top 15 not ten.

Thats crazy man. I have him at number three. Below Ali and Louis. I can see him at 4 and 5, but I've got him just below Louis. For all we know he could be number 1 or two but he was not tested enough.

JDizzle79
05-22-2006, 12:17 PM
Tyson is overrated by the nuthuggers, whereas I put him between 8-10 usually. I think where most people get confused is in the fact that he was "potentially" the greatest waste of talent the sport had ever seen. And it's true what Yaman said; there were lots of guys who fought back and created adversity for Tyson and he still won. The problem, however, is that Tyson was a quitter once he had become champion. He simply didn't care anymore. This is why I place him at the bottom of the top ten list.

I think Jack Johnson is given WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYYYYYY too much credit for his fight with Jeffries, even though Jeffries was gone for three years and had to shed about a thousand pounds to get into a respectable fighting form again. Other than that, Johnson was great.

Marciano is underrated because people think that his era was stains. That's unfair. It's not like he chose to be in prime fighting form during a time when Louis was a ghost, and Patterson and Liston hadn't yet arrived. Marciano took on all comers, often bigger than himself, and he won. The man had a huge heart, worked hard, and had the best P4P punching power of anyone.

Lennox Lewis is underrated. I think, given his size and skill, he could have done well in almost any era.

I think that Foreman's career parallels Tyson's in many ways, but Foreman is given a lot more credit because he avoided a lot of the antics Tyson fell into. Foreman beat up a ton of tomato cans to earn a shot at the title, and then won the belt convincingly, giving him an aura of invincibility. (same as Tyson) When Foreman simply ran out of gas against Ali, people forgot about him, and Foreman became a quitter (eventually leaving the sport all together), same as Tyson after Douglas. Tyson did come back to win the belt after his prison layoff, whereas Foreman waited until he was in his 40's. Suddenly Foreman is a hero, and Tyson's a joke. Even so, I think that both men are slightly overrated.



good post....good k coming

Southpaw Stinger
05-22-2006, 12:18 PM
I think Jack Johnson is the most overated in history.

King Koyle
05-22-2006, 12:48 PM
I don't know who is the most overrated ever.But Tyson is definetly up there.Although I still consider him a great.I don't see how Marciano is overated.He never lost a pro fight.And is the only champion in any weight class ever to retire undefeated with no draws at all.He is maybe overrated by people who say that he is with out a doubt the greatest that ever lived.But not many people say that.

Dempsey 1919
05-22-2006, 01:11 PM
Ruddock fought back HARD twice and gave Tyson a beating a couple of times. He came back to stop him and win *****. Frans Botha fought back HARD, Tyson came back to stop him. James Tillis, Mcneely, Ribalta...i can go on. They all fought back and Tyson beat them. When he lost, he lost to the better man, Tyson was better than Ruddock, he beat him even though he fought back. Douglass was better than Tyson that night etc.

Oh ya, most overrated HW's ever are jack Johnson and Sonny Liston.

no comment.

Dempsey 1919
05-22-2006, 01:13 PM
Thats crazy man. I have him at number three. Below Ali and Louis. I can see him at 4 and 5, but I've got him just below Louis. For all we know he could be number 1 or two but he was not tested enough.

i think alot of hw's could have beaten marciano besides ali and louis.

Yaman
05-22-2006, 01:14 PM
no comment.


Not that he's a bum, but he is overrated when people put him in the top 5 or something. First of all, the mob controlled some of his fights. I know you'll disagree, but you have no proof, and by reading everything about him, the mob did help him out. I also dont believe he threw the second fight against Ali. You'll disagree, but it has never been proven so i can believe what i want.

Dempsey 1919
05-22-2006, 01:15 PM
I think Jack Johnson is the most overated in history.

but i would give him more credit than rocky cause he didn't struggle with his competition like marciano did.

armani_model
05-22-2006, 01:16 PM
Tarver...i could beat him up!

JDizzle79
05-22-2006, 01:16 PM
but i would give him more credit than rocky cause he didn't struggle with his competition like marciano did.


Marciano was smaller than all his opponents...he is far from over-rated

Dempsey 1919
05-22-2006, 01:17 PM
Not that he's a bum, but he is overrated when people put him in the top 5 or something. First of all, the mob controlled some of his fights. I know you'll disagree, but you have no proof, and by reading everything about him, the mob did help him out. I also dont believe he threw the second fight against Ali. You'll disagree, but it has never been proven so i can believe what i want.

why do you say he's overrated? it's not like people here think he was good. nobody thinks he was good, except for a handfull. so even if you don't think he was good, you can't say he was overrated.

Dempsey 1919
05-22-2006, 01:18 PM
Marciano was smaller than all his opponents...he is far from over-rated

marciano usually fought cruiserweights like himself who had limited skill like himself.

King Koyle
05-22-2006, 01:20 PM
Marciano was smaller than all his opponents...he is far from over-rated

The only way Butterfly will give Marciano any credit,is if it is discovered that Rocky was actually black somehow.

Brockton Lip
05-22-2006, 01:20 PM
i think alot of hw's could have beaten marciano besides ali and louis.

Possibly but since he never lost, we don't know :confused:. Quite a few could have beaten Louis and hes still in most people's top 2. Ali would, Marciano would, Foreman and Tyson would probably. Maybe Frazier also.

JDizzle79
05-22-2006, 01:22 PM
Possibly but since he never lost, we don't know :confused:. Quite a few could have beaten Louis and hes still in most people's top 2. Ali would, Marciano would, Foreman and Tyson would probably. Maybe Frazier also.


well, I remember an article I read about Ali and Marciano being put into a computer to see who would win a fight and the result was Marciano. I know that holds no mustard to butterfly

Brockton Lip
05-22-2006, 01:26 PM
Yep. Alot of arguments is that the computer was inaccurate but there is also much talk about when Marciano became mad at Ali during the filming. Marciano knocked him down and counted out with a very hard shot to the body.

JDizzle79
05-22-2006, 01:28 PM
Yep. Alot of arguments is that the computer was inaccurate but there is also much talk about when Marciano became mad at Ali during the filming. Marciano knocked him down and counted out with a very hard shot to the body.


I think they are the two best though...who's #1 and #2...who knows, but they are both great

King Koyle
05-22-2006, 01:48 PM
I think they are the two best though...who's #1 and #2...who knows, but they are both great

Very true! :boxing:

leff
05-22-2006, 02:13 PM
tyson and jack johnsen proabably the most overrated, apart from butterfly i dont see anyone overating liston

SuzieQ49
05-22-2006, 02:32 PM
IMO marciano was top 15 not ten.


thats cause u horribly underate marciano. hes an automatic top 10 heavyweight

SuzieQ49
05-22-2006, 02:34 PM
but i would give him more credit than rocky cause he didn't struggle with his competition like marciano did.



but rocky didnt struggle with his competition. outside of walcott I and lastarza I, marciano was clearly ahead in the scorecards on all his fights.

Dempsey 1919
05-22-2006, 02:47 PM
but rocky didnt struggle with his competition. outside of walcott I and lastarza I, marciano was clearly ahead in the scorecards on all his fights.

he struggled with charles both times. he struggled somewhat with louis, and moore knocked him down and was able to slug it out with him till the end.

Dempsey1238
05-22-2006, 03:25 PM
Marciano was well ahead on the score cards in fight 1 with Charles. Nothing close in the fight, sure it was a hard fight.

Fight 2 was more of a masscer imo. Charles was able to win 1 mere round(By on the scorecards, and IN my eyes)

The fight was not close at all, Marciano blow him out in 8 EASY rounds.

Dempsey1238
05-22-2006, 03:30 PM
Also Moore WAS unable to slug it with Rocky until the end. It lasted 9 rounds.

Outside of round 2, I have Moore 2 maybe 3 rounds max.

Outside of the flash knockdown, Marciano had his way with Archie, and pounded him into burger in 9 rounds.

SuzieQ49
05-22-2006, 03:30 PM
he struggled with charles both times. he struggled somewhat with louis, and moore knocked him down and was able to slug it out with him till the end.



im confused????? define struggling for me please...........

marciano was well ahead on the scorecards of the louis fight and then knocked joe louis out cold! louis hadnt been knocked out in 14 years! how did he struggle with joe louis???




how did marciano struggle with charles in the 2nd fight??????/ please butterfly tell me?? after 7 rounds, marciano was up on the scorecards 6 rounds to 1, 6 rounds to 0 1 even and 6 rounds to 1. that means marciano BASICALLY WON EVERY ROUND OF THE CHARLES REMATCH. he also knocked down charles 3 times!

NOW TELL ME HOW IS THAT STRUGGLING??



marciano dominated archie moore knocking him down 4 times. at the time of the stoppage, marciano was well ahead on the scorecards. u say moore was able to slug it out with rocky? thats bull****. every time he tried to slug it out with the rock he ended up on his ass!

so moore was knocked down 4 times in 9 rounds, battered from post to post, was trailing by a good amount on the scorecards going into the 9th yet u are saying marciano struggled vs him?

hemichromis
05-22-2006, 03:48 PM
everyones saying tyson!!

tyson is certainly one of the top ten of all time if you discount the amount of times he quit toward the end of his career

but his heart wasn't in it after he was no longer able to knock everyone out

RockyMarcianofan00
05-22-2006, 05:04 PM
Suzie Q is right-
Marciano struggled with Walcott and Lastarza and justifiabley, for the first lastarza fight he hadn't trained. Once again i will repeat and explain to you all that due to the result of his previous bout (knocking Carmine Vingo into a coma) he was between the hospital and church, he had hardly any training. During the fight he's admitted to holding back due to fear of Hurting someone. Understand Marciano was a kind man and never meant to intentionally hurt anyone.

Walcott, Walcott was prime for that fight, that was the fight of his life, he was great, out boxing, counterin. He gave Marciano a handful but to the best of my knowledge the scorecards were pretty close, Walcott had a slight edge when Marciano got something in his eye from Walcott's glove. Like what happened to Ali vs Liston. Marciano went chraging blind and got tagged giving him the disadvantage in points.

These were the only two fights that Marciano had clear trouble in. Also in defense to Marciano taking many rounds to knock people out please relize that it is widely known that Marciano was a slow starter.

K-DOGG
05-22-2006, 05:07 PM
Most Overrated?

No hate here; but what about Harry Greb? I'll admit I rank him very highly on both my middleweight and p4p lists; but like everybody else, I'm going on others opionions and writings of the time. No one living, to my knowledge, has ever seen Greb fight....yet he's ranked so highly on rep alone. Just a thought.

Another potentially overrated fighter is Salvador Sanchez...cause he died at 23, so he is remembered on potential because we'll never know how his career would have panned out, for better or worse.

Fighters I've seen who I BELIEVE are overrated:

David Reid, William Joppy, Zab Judah, Sharmba Mitchell, Joe Mesi, Shannon Briggs, Naseem Hamed, Hector Camacho (had potential; but after Rosario...well, ya know), Evander Holyfield....(great fighter; but overrated by manyt at heavyweight when you really look at his W-L record in big matches),Hasim Rahman (people finally caught up to me on this one), James Toney (at heavyweight....last fight proved it), Sonny Liston...(he is great; but many place him too high, IMO)...same with Jersey Joe Walcott.

Honestly, it's easier for me to pick the most underated; but that's not the thread. Sooo.....

Most Overrated Contender or Champion in History? Well, I'm thinking it would have to be a more modern champion, given all the alphabelts and the opportunity to avoid the best. Also, it would have to be a fighter who most people feel is nearly legend status and who's legacy was not tainted or exposed because he never gave anyone the chance....or he did and it was and people still ignore their eyes.

For me, that would make the winner.....George Foreman.

Don't get me wrong, I love George and he is an all time great; but for people to place him in the top 5 heavies of all time is rediculous.

He retired at 28 after being outboxed by Jimmy Young, a figher he should have defeated. So, we never saw his career play out. As of 1977, Foreman had beaten Joe Frazier....whose style was hand made for him, Ken Norton....who showed later on that he always froze like a deer in headlights when facing a man with power; his style was more or less aggressive, so he couldn't handle a bigger badder man, & Ron Lyle. Who else of significance? No one.

Then, he comes back at 38, gets laughed at and eventually builds support by knocking off a bunch of never-weres. People love a good story; but who did George beat in his second career?

Gerry Cooney...hadn't fought since Michael Spinks stopped him in 5 two years before; and was inactive before that.

Alex Stewart....who nearly beat him; and did beat him to a pulp. Who hasn't stopped Alex Steaward besides George?

Micael Moorer....ahh, here's the deciding vote: a blown up Cruiserweight with a light-heavyweight chin.


Don't get me wrong. I love big George; but when someone rates him at #5 or above on their all-time great heavyweight list, it's more to do with loving a good story and loving seeing a fairy-tale come true, than actual in-ring accomplishments, IMO.

George fought in the late 80's and early to mid 90's. The decade of Lewis, Holyfield, Bowe, Tyson, Mercer, Morrison, Ruddock, and so many others. He fought Holyfield and Morrison; and lost to both. Moorer was a good heavyweight and got a close decision over Holyfield; but one win's not enough....and Shultz, Savarese, and Briggs (that was a win) don't quite measure up to the afore-metioned 7.

That's my take.

RockyMarcianofan00
05-22-2006, 05:12 PM
Thee most overrated of all time as said before by me and others is no other then Jack Johnson. Jack Johnson was a giant for his times at 6'0. He fought bums, he fought in a much much weaker time then Marciano so don't go there. He used very very light gloves and still didn't do the damage of fighters that came after him.

Johnson fought many light heavyweights, and middleweights. Many of his fights even right up until he won the heavyweight title only had a couple fights. Some of his fights were against guys who only fought him and then retired. His biggest fight was against an obviously past his prime James J. Jefferies.

you think i'm lying about who he fought just look at his record for yourself
http://boxrec.com/boxer_display.php?boxer_id=1187

I'm very confident that if Jack Johnson was white nobody would of heard his name. Not a top10 fighter.

Granted he was a good historical figure, he went where no man had gone before (black man) and he broke the color barrier. Could historical figure, very overrated fighter.

K-DOGG
05-22-2006, 05:14 PM
Thee most overrated of all time as said before by me and others is no other then Jack Johnson. Jack Johnson was a giant for his times at 6'0. He fought bums, he fought in a much much weaker time then Marciano so don't go there. He used very very light gloves and still didn't do the damage of fighters that came after him.

Johnson fought many light heavyweights, and middleweights. Many of his fights even right up until he won the heavyweight title only had a couple fights. Some of his fights were against guys who only fought him and then retired. His biggest fight was against an obviously past his prime James J. Jefferies.

you think i'm lying about who he fought just look at his record for yourself
http://boxrec.com/boxer_display.php?boxer_id=1187

I'm very confident that if Jack Johnson was white nobody would of heard his name. Not a top10 fighter.

Granted he was a good historical figure, he went where no man had gone before (black man) and he broke the color barrier. Could historical figure, very overrated fighter.

Good post with good points. Could be...I'll admit it. Props.

Course, I'm still goin with Foreman. ;)

Verstyle
05-22-2006, 05:31 PM
would u guys shut the **** up about rocky being overrated or not overrated already

Brassangel
05-22-2006, 05:55 PM
To sum up my earlier posts, I'll go with Foreman and Johnson.

Liston, like Foreman and Tyson, was one of those potentially greatest fighters who just didn't have the heart to continue when he finally ran into competition. Even so, Foreman, Liston, Tyson, and Johnson are all in my top ten...I guess potential counts for something.

Furthermore, every fighter's career can look bleak when you really break it down. I basically do it this way:

1-2. Muhammad Ali
1-2. Joe Louis
3. Larry Holmes
4. Rocky Marciano
5. Sonny Liston
6. Jack Dempsey
7. George Foreman
8. Joe Frazier
9. Mike Tyson
10. Jack Johnson

This changes for me on a daily basis, apart from the first four. Several of these fighters are overrated, and there are probably some on here that are underrated. Unless we took a world-wide vote of some kind, however, "over" and "under" are subject to speculation.

hellfire508
05-23-2006, 05:04 AM
Yep. Alot of arguments is that the computer was inaccurate but there is also much talk about when Marciano became mad at Ali during the filming. Marciano knocked him down and counted out with a very hard shot to the body.

Wow, this story continues to grow over time. The story is that Ali was knocked DOWN, not out - whilst out of shape and joking around - after a shot to the body from Marciano who suddenly turned serious. Knocked out? Where do you pull your **** from? Besides, the story is unproven - however I dont say its true or false, but still unproven. (Not that I care if it is true).

Ali UD Marciano

hellfire508
05-23-2006, 05:11 AM
Most Overrated?

No hate here; but what about Harry Greb? I'll admit I rank him very highly on both my middleweight and p4p lists; but like everybody else, I'm going on others opionions and writings of the time. No one living, to my knowledge, has ever seen Greb fight....yet he's ranked so highly on rep alone. Just a thought.

Another potentially overrated fighter is Salvador Sanchez...cause he died at 23, so he is remembered on potential because we'll never know how his career would have panned out, for better or worse.

Fighters I've seen who I BELIEVE are overrated:

David Reid, William Joppy, Zab Judah, Sharmba Mitchell, Joe Mesi, Shannon Briggs, Naseem Hamed, Hector Camacho (had potential; but after Rosario...well, ya know), Evander Holyfield....(great fighter; but overrated by manyt at heavyweight when you really look at his W-L record in big matches),Hasim Rahman (people finally caught up to me on this one), James Toney (at heavyweight....last fight proved it), Sonny Liston...(he is great; but many place him too high, IMO)...same with Jersey Joe Walcott.

Honestly, it's easier for me to pick the most underated; but that's not the thread. Sooo.....

Most Overrated Contender or Champion in History? Well, I'm thinking it would have to be a more modern champion, given all the alphabelts and the opportunity to avoid the best. Also, it would have to be a fighter who most people feel is nearly legend status and who's legacy was not tainted or exposed because he never gave anyone the chance....or he did and it was and people still ignore their eyes.

For me, that would make the winner.....George Foreman.

Don't get me wrong, I love George and he is an all time great; but for people to place him in the top 5 heavies of all time is rediculous.

He retired at 28 after being outboxed by Jimmy Young, a figher he should have defeated. So, we never saw his career play out. As of 1977, Foreman had beaten Joe Frazier....whose style was hand made for him, Ken Norton....who showed later on that he always froze like a deer in headlights when facing a man with power; his style was more or less aggressive, so he couldn't handle a bigger badder man, & Ron Lyle. Who else of significance? No one.

Then, he comes back at 38, gets laughed at and eventually builds support by knocking off a bunch of never-weres. People love a good story; but who did George beat in his second career?

Gerry Cooney...hadn't fought since Michael Spinks stopped him in 5 two years before; and was inactive before that.

Alex Stewart....who nearly beat him; and did beat him to a pulp. Who hasn't stopped Alex Steaward besides George?

Micael Moorer....ahh, here's the deciding vote: a blown up Cruiserweight with a light-heavyweight chin.


Don't get me wrong. I love big George; but when someone rates him at #5 or above on their all-time great heavyweight list, it's more to do with loving a good story and loving seeing a fairy-tale come true, than actual in-ring accomplishments, IMO.

George fought in the late 80's and early to mid 90's. The decade of Lewis, Holyfield, Bowe, Tyson, Mercer, Morrison, Ruddock, and so many others. He fought Holyfield and Morrison; and lost to both. Moorer was a good heavyweight and got a close decision over Holyfield; but one win's not enough....and Shultz, Savarese, and Briggs (that was a win) don't quite measure up to the afore-metioned 7.

That's my take.

Greb is rated based on his accomplishments, and opposition. He is ranked accordingly IMO. But everyone is entitled to an opinion, especially on someone we havent seen fight.

Salvador Sanchez in no way shape or form is overrated in my eyes. He was a brilliant fighter WHEN HE FOUGHT, not for what he COULD have been. He was amazing, and definately a top 25 P4P of all time. I personally have him 19th, and 4th at featherweight - behind Armstrong, Pep and Saddler!

I also disagree with Foreman, and Liston, but alot of the other guys you said I agree with.

Frazier's 15th round
05-23-2006, 07:16 AM
Marciano KO1 Ali. That scamboogah Ali, or Clay, or whatever he wants to call himself, really lost about 15 fights in his career, but was given the win via gifts or controversies, or even fixed fights. 46-15 is the record of a journeymen.

Heckler
05-23-2006, 07:40 AM
Would you like to justify that? 15 fights? Them fights you haven't watched cos your a ****en retard. Look in the other thread, this guy claimed zora folley... who was knocked the **** out was robbed against Ali. Seriously your worse then those that think Ali was an untouchable god, do us all a favour and **** off.

Heckler
05-23-2006, 07:45 AM
Thee most overrated of all time as said before by me and others is no other then Jack Johnson. Jack Johnson was a giant for his times at 6'0. He fought bums, he fought in a much much weaker time then Marciano so don't go there. He used very very light gloves and still didn't do the damage of fighters that came after him.

Johnson fought many light heavyweights, and middleweights. Many of his fights even right up until he won the heavyweight title only had a couple fights. Some of his fights were against guys who only fought him and then retired. His biggest fight was against an obviously past his prime James J. Jefferies.

you think i'm lying about who he fought just look at his record for yourself
http://boxrec.com/boxer_display.php?boxer_id=1187

I'm very confident that if Jack Johnson was white nobody would of heard his name. Not a top10 fighter.

Granted he was a good historical figure, he went where no man had gone before (black man) and he broke the color barrier. Could historical figure, very overrated fighter.

Disagree with most of what you are saying. Discrediting Jack Johnson because he is big is like discrediting Marciano for having tremendous power. Both natural gifts. He didn't do alot of damage, part of that was possibly preference... he raised his hand at the end of his matches and thats what matters. He was a man of tremendous skill and this cannot be denied.

Brockton Lip
05-23-2006, 12:08 PM
Wow, this story continues to grow over time. The story is that Ali was knocked DOWN, not out - whilst out of shape and joking around - after a shot to the body from Marciano who suddenly turned serious. Knocked out? Where do you pull your **** from? Besides, the story is unproven - however I dont say its true or false, but still unproven. (Not that I care if it is true).

Ali UD Marciano

It is unproven, I am only going by what I have been told and read. I read that Ali was knocked down and unable to get up. I believe he would be knocked down and its possible he couldn't get up immediately. I heard he got up after about 5 minutes. I doubt it was that long, maybe 10 seconds.

805ODLH
05-23-2006, 01:05 PM
Most overrated boxer is sorry ass Roy Jones

bigsmoothh
05-23-2006, 01:11 PM
im goin with lennox lewis
then ali
then roy jones
then oscar de la *****

Yaman
05-23-2006, 02:18 PM
im goin with lennox lewis
then ali
then roy jones
then oscar de la *****


Lewis is somewhat underrated
Ali is not overrated
Roy is not overrated
Oscar is still dominating after all these years. Sure he's overrated eh?

rocco1252
05-23-2006, 02:25 PM
Who is the most overrated boxer in history?
ALI BY FAR HAS THIS ONE. I CANT BELIEVE HOW EVERY MAKES HIM IMMORTAL BECAUSE OF WHAT HE DID OUTSIDE THE RING, NOT INSIDE THE RING. SURE HE WAS A GREAT AND A TOP 10 BUT HE IS SO FRIGGAN OVERRATED BY PEOPLE ITS NOT FUNNY.

Dempsey 1919
05-23-2006, 02:54 PM
ALI BY FAR HAS THIS ONE. I CANT BELIEVE HOW EVERY MAKES HIM IMMORTAL BECAUSE OF WHAT HE DID OUTSIDE THE RING, NOT INSIDE THE RING. SURE HE WAS A GREAT AND A TOP 10 BUT HE IS SO FRIGGAN OVERRATED BY PEOPLE ITS NOT FUNNY.

he'd still beat your boy marciano.

JDizzle79
05-23-2006, 02:55 PM
he'd still beat your boy marciano.
Marciano has no blemishes on his record

Dempsey 1919
05-23-2006, 02:58 PM
Marciano has no blemishes on his record

what about roland lastarza?

JDizzle79
05-23-2006, 02:59 PM
49-0<<<<<you see that 0...that means ZERO losses...how many does Clay/Ali have there?

JDizzle79
05-23-2006, 02:59 PM
49-0<you see that 0...that means ZERO losses...how many does Clay/Ali have there?

Dempsey 1919
05-23-2006, 03:02 PM
49-0<you see that 0...that means ZERO losses...how many does Clay/Ali have there?

48-1 (robbed roland lastarza)

JDizzle79
05-23-2006, 03:04 PM
48-1 (robbed roland lastarza)


official record 49-0

Dempsey 1919
05-23-2006, 03:05 PM
official record 49-0

against official bums.

JDizzle79
05-23-2006, 03:09 PM
against official bums.


what was the official bum record of ali then? your own words, not mine!

Dempsey 1919
05-23-2006, 03:14 PM
what was the official bum record of ali then? your own words, not mine!

you mean the overflowing with hall of fameers top ten hw's record? :D

JDizzle79
05-23-2006, 03:15 PM
just answer the question

hemichromis
05-23-2006, 03:17 PM
just answer the question
dont be stupid! ali was boxing in the goldenage of boxing, never have so many great boxers been around at the same time

Dempsey 1919
05-23-2006, 03:18 PM
just answer the question

56-5 against a bunch of 200lb. hall of famers outweighs 49-0 against a bunch of 180lb. bums.

JDizzle79
05-23-2006, 03:19 PM
dont be stupid! ali was boxing in the goldenage of boxing, never have so many great boxers been around at the same time

if you have mroe braincells than words in my last post...you would scroll up and see I never bad-mouthed Ali...I'm just trying to get Butterfly1964 worked up and angry again. Its easy...all I said was that Marciano had a perfect record...due some homework before you post

RockyMarcianofan00
05-23-2006, 06:47 PM
48-1 (robbed roland lastarza)
actually as i have just read marciano didn't win an SD he got a MD one judge had him winning one had him losing won had him tied

the referee said he won
put anybody in Marciano's shoes that night i garuntee they'd have put a ****ty. The hole no training,scared of killing thing, or the fact he was holding back ring a bell

Southpaw Stinger
05-23-2006, 06:54 PM
Although there were doubts about that fight Marciano got a decision. He also beat Lastarza more decisively later on in his career.

Dye
05-23-2006, 06:55 PM
by ko in round 11 i think

Southpaw Stinger
05-23-2006, 07:06 PM
I think it was a TKO but whatever!

Dye
05-23-2006, 07:50 PM
i was close

Rane-Ex54
05-23-2006, 08:28 PM
some of you may get mad.....but Sugar Ray Leonard & ODLH are overrated

RockyMarcianofan00
05-23-2006, 08:35 PM
Marciano TKO11 Lastarza

Lastarza had 2 broken arms and blood clots all in his arms
he also pissed blood for a few months

Tysonisgod
05-23-2006, 08:55 PM
i think Vitali Klitschko was very over rated they all said he was gonna take Lewis' place because no one else was there, i mean Ali,Frazier,Foreman,Norton and Holmes would destroy him in the old era and 2day Tyson Bowe Lewis (who DID beat him)and Rock would hav beaten him..Bowe was over rated, so was Mike Spinks even tho i say he was never a heavy lol,
Ali beat 11 GOOD or higher boxers...Cooper could hav had him..frazier norton and spinks all beat ali before he beat them...

Rock beat about 5 or 6 good or higher fighters, but he beat Joe Louis

roy jones was over, Eubank and liston

Dye
05-23-2006, 08:58 PM
how the hell is Oscar overated he is a 9 time world champion, he was a gold medelist would you people stop with all the overrated bull****

Carolina Bomber
05-23-2006, 08:59 PM
did someone just say sugar ray leonard and oscar de la hoya are overrated? they faught the toughest competition, in there time, and right now IMO de la hoya wants to fight mayweather, its hard to stay undefeated when u fight the best

Dye
05-23-2006, 08:59 PM
they are underated because you dumbasses keep saying they are overrated

Carolina Bomber
05-23-2006, 09:04 PM
idk if anyone has said this one yet, but i think larry holmes was overrated, then im sorry but id have to say marciano was too, only because he never faught a Mohammed Ali, or Floyd Patterson, Sonny Liston, or a prime archie moore, a prime joe louis, or a prime jersey joe walcott, i think the average age of his apponents was like 39 or 40 yrs old. i once heard someone say he was like a rose in a wastefield, or something like that, in other words no one ever got a chance to see how great marciano really was

RockyMarcianofan00
05-23-2006, 09:17 PM
idk if anyone has said this one yet, but i think larry holmes was overrated, then im sorry but id have to say marciano was too, only because he never faught a Mohammed Ali, or Floyd Patterson, Sonny Liston, or a prime archie moore, a prime joe louis, or a prime jersey joe walcott, i think the average age of his apponents was like 39 or 40 yrs old. i once heard someone say he was like a rose in a wastefield, or something like that, in other words no one ever got a chance to see how great marciano really was

Rocky Marciano did get to fight a prime Jersey Joe Walcott, in there bout Walcott fought the fight of his life and was at his absolute best. Unfortunatley he lost.

Floyd Patterson- marciano was supposed to fight Floyd Patterson but when Patterson was offered the chance Patterson said he was going to fight Light Heavy weight for a few years.

Arche Moore wasn't prime against Marciano, in fact i believe his prime was when he was a LHW more so then when he was a HW but i still believe he'd beat Moore. because at that point in Marciano's career Rocky wasn't prime either (more or less)

Marciano wanted to come out of retirement to fight Liston because Rocky hated liston, unfortunatley at this point Rocky had been retired to long to hope to make a comeback (4 years) by this time Rocky was already well over 200lbs, probably close to 300lbs

Heckler
05-23-2006, 10:22 PM
It is unproven, I am only going by what I have been told and read. I read that Ali was knocked down and unable to get up. I believe he would be knocked down and its possible he couldn't get up immediately. I heard he got up after about 5 minutes. I doubt it was that long, maybe 10 seconds.

This story gets more and more unbelieveable every time i hear it. Lets be realistic about this, Ali was hit by tremendous left hooks to the body by Joe Frazier... and Frazier worked the body over better then any HW.. Ali did not waver. George Foreman hit ali with quote 'the hardest body punch i ever hit someone with'.

The story i heard is Ali was being a smartass and jabbing at Marciano's hairpiece which kept falling off, Marciano warned him... Ali did it again... Ali whilst unprepared for it, out of fighting condition was hit with a good bodyshot and Ali was hurt. Following this Ali and Marciano developed mutual respect and a good friendship. I can believe this, but i will not believe that Ali was on the ground in pain for 5 minutes.

RockyMarcianofan00
05-23-2006, 10:34 PM
This story gets more and more unbelieveable every time i hear it. Lets be realistic about this, Ali was hit by tremendous left hooks to the body by Joe Frazier... and Frazier worked the body over better then any HW.. Ali did not waver. George Foreman hit ali with quote 'the hardest body punch i ever hit someone with'.

The story i heard is Ali was being a smartass and jabbing at Marciano's hairpiece which kept falling off, Marciano warned him... Ali did it again... Ali whilst unprepared for it, out of fighting condition was hit with a good bodyshot and Ali was hurt. Following this Ali and Marciano developed mutual respect and a good friendship. I can believe this, but i will not believe that Ali was on the ground in pain for 5 minutes.


hold on

"Ali's people told him that Marciano was wearing a wig to cover his baldness. He decided to have a little fun with Rocky. He danced around and threw a high jab, which just clipped Marciano's wig and knocked it to the canvas. The filming was stopped while the wig was refitted, amid bemused smiles from several observers.

Marciano was embarrassed and angry. "He did that on purpose to make me look stupid. He doesn't have have respect for me at all." Rocky was assured it was an accident and the filming resumed. Ali again jabbed high and sent the wig flying. Rocky was mad this time. "You better not do that again!" They began once more and immediately Ali flicked the wig off Marciano's head. Without hesitation, Marciano dug a vicious body shot into Ali's mid-section, doubling him over. Pacheco said Muhammad actually dropped and was completely helpless.

Quickly, the trainers separated the fighters. Dundee remembers, "The fight was stopped until Rocky's temper cooled off." Marciano offered to turn it into a real fight immediately if Ali was game. Only after Muhammad apologized did Rocky get over his anger. Ali's attitude was different from that point on, as it was obvious to all that Marciano would rather fight than be disrespected."


here's evidence
its under the wig incident at the link shown
http://www.mackinacmedia.com/SuperFight/history2.htm


in regards to the bold i would say Ali didn't get hit cleanly with those body shots, granted they were IMO the hardest but not cleanly, also I would believe that Marciano was inside on Ali when this happened and got a good show on him so

hellfire508
05-23-2006, 11:06 PM
The truth of the matter is: Marciano hit Ali who was overweight, out-of-shape and clowing around in what couldn't even be considered sparring, with a shot to the body that may have put him down briefly.

Against Frazier and Foreman, he was in peak condition, and in a fight, where he WAS prepared to take shots - and ready for them.

Carolina Bomber
05-23-2006, 11:24 PM
Rocky Marciano did get to fight a prime Jersey Joe Walcott, in there bout Walcott fought the fight of his life and was at his absolute best. Unfortunatley he lost.

Floyd Patterson- marciano was supposed to fight Floyd Patterson but when Patterson was offered the chance Patterson said he was going to fight Light Heavy weight for a few years.

Arche Moore wasn't prime against Marciano, in fact i believe his prime was when he was a LHW more so then when he was a HW but i still believe he'd beat Moore. because at that point in Marciano's career Rocky wasn't prime either (more or less)

Marciano wanted to come out of retirement to fight Liston because Rocky hated liston, unfortunatley at this point Rocky had been retired to long to hope to make a comeback (4 years) by this time Rocky was already well over 200lbs, probably close to 300lbs
Joe Walcott was 38 and 39 years old for the 2 fights they had, its hardly possible he was in his prime, i think the only one who might have been in his fighting best at that age was archie moore, bernard hopkins also faught like he was 30 when he was 38 and 39

Carolina Bomber
05-23-2006, 11:27 PM
hold on

"Ali's people told him that Marciano was wearing a wig to cover his baldness. He decided to have a little fun with Rocky. He danced around and threw a high jab, which just clipped Marciano's wig and knocked it to the canvas. The filming was stopped while the wig was refitted, amid bemused smiles from several observers.

Marciano was embarrassed and angry. "He did that on purpose to make me look stupid. He doesn't have have respect for me at all." Rocky was assured it was an accident and the filming resumed. Ali again jabbed high and sent the wig flying. Rocky was mad this time. "You better not do that again!" They began once more and immediately Ali flicked the wig off Marciano's head. Without hesitation, Marciano dug a vicious body shot into Ali's mid-section, doubling him over. Pacheco said Muhammad actually dropped and was completely helpless.

Quickly, the trainers separated the fighters. Dundee remembers, "The fight was stopped until Rocky's temper cooled off." Marciano offered to turn it into a real fight immediately if Ali was game. Only after Muhammad apologized did Rocky get over his anger. Ali's attitude was different from that point on, as it was obvious to all that Marciano would rather fight than be disrespected."


here's evidence
its under the wig incident at the link shown
http://www.mackinacmedia.com/SuperFight/history2.htm


in regards to the bold i would say Ali didn't get hit cleanly with those body shots, granted they were IMO the hardest but not cleanly, also I would believe that Marciano was inside on Ali when this happened and got a good show on him so
i think anyone that gets hits when they are not expecting it would be in great pain, especially in the stomach or side, and that is a good point Ali survived some heave artillary from some of the best body punchers of all time, i think if he braced himself, and was in good shape, he wouldnt have been that hurt

Heckler
05-23-2006, 11:34 PM
Ali was hit cleanly with that body shot, it was an interview with Foreman and Foreman was talking about how most of the shots were hitting Ali's elbows.. Foreman then attacked the head, then focused on Ali's body once again and hit him with a number of clean body shots one of them being quote 'the hardest punch i ever hit someone with, i saw him cringe in pain for a second... then he smiled at me' - Documentary Ali: Through the eyes of the world.

The notion that Ali was hit with no clean punches at all from Foreman is ridiculous. Foreman threw a huge amount of Power punches that night, not just one but often he opened up with combinations of body rips whilst Ali was lying against the ropes in the earlier rounds... and whilst a disproportionate number of those punches missed it becomes apparent when watching the film that Ali was still tagged with a number of power punches.

Marcianofan.. there are various accounts like the one that you have provided that are apparently from reputable sources and they all tend to differ and have varying levels of dramatization. I think its probably that Ali was hurt and even dropped by a body shot from Marciano, but him being essentially KO'd seems a tad far fetched.

SuzieQ49
05-23-2006, 11:48 PM
Marciano wanted to come out of retirement to fight Liston because Rocky hated liston

since when? he hated johannsen, not liston

Kid Achilles
05-23-2006, 11:56 PM
I love that wig story. Rocky was a natural born fighter and if he couldn't obtain your respect through good manners and diplomacy, he would take it by sheer force. He wasn't a guy you'd want to play games with, in or out of the ring. Rocky did he best to behave like a gentleman around family and friends and in interviews, but he had a blazing fire of a temper beneath that nice guy exterior, especially if he thought he was being disrespected.

Kid Achilles
05-24-2006, 12:00 AM
Marciano had little love for Liston, due to a few run ins the two had where Liston displayed contempt for his boxing ability in their conversations, but Rocky respected Liston's ability as a fighter. Johansson was a guy who the Rock had no respect for and he was truly annoyed by Ingo's playboy lifestyle and ****y personality. Marciano really wanted to knock Ingo out and I think he would have, even if he had to train down from the 250-300 pounds he weighed at the time and even in his old age.

Frazier's 15th round
05-24-2006, 12:29 AM
Marciano was about 50 years old and 120 pounds overweight when he knocked out Clay in sparring, imagine what he'd do in his prime. He'd dust off that half-breed pretty quick.

Dempsey 1919
05-24-2006, 02:26 AM
Marciano was about 50 years old and 120 pounds overweight when he knocked out Clay in sparring, imagine what he'd do in his prime. He'd dust off that half-breed pretty quick.

Frazier's 15th round OWNED!! :D
http://www.josportsinc.com/item_images/1086457192.jpg

RockyMarcianofan00
05-24-2006, 05:12 AM
Frazier's 15th round OWNED!! :D
IMG removed so i could fit mine
lol that was funny


I'm an ******* but hey Ali's not the only one that throws punches
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c49/IrishInsomniac00/other%20boxing%20pictures/ssg-ujf-16k.jpg




http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c49/IrishInsomniac00/other%20boxing%20pictures/ali3.jpg
:D

Frazier's 15th round
05-24-2006, 08:55 AM
http://www.nytimes.com/books/98/10/25/specials/ali.9.jpg

Heckler
05-24-2006, 09:02 AM
http://www.nytimes.com/books/98/10/25/specials/ali.8.jpg

Wow isn't this constructive?

hellfire508
05-24-2006, 09:04 AM
Marciano was about 50 years old and 120 pounds overweight when he knocked out Clay in sparring, imagine what he'd do in his prime. He'd dust off that half-breed pretty quick.

Pleeeeasee. Put down your crack pipe.

Yaman
05-24-2006, 09:09 AM
http://www.nytimes.com/books/98/10/25/specials/ali.8.jpg

Wow isn't this constructive?


Very mature responses *****.

Frazier's 15th round
05-24-2006, 09:15 AM
Just ignore Heckler. He's not too bright.

Heckler
05-24-2006, 09:21 AM
Not a mature response? From the guy that has a fit and calls people biased when they disagree with him. Time after time he gets flamed and time after time he continues to run his mouth.

Leave the debating to the big boys.

Yaman
05-24-2006, 09:30 AM
Just ignore Heckler. He's not too bright.

Ali's **** is shoved so deep deep up his mouth, its blocking his brain.

Yaman
05-24-2006, 09:35 AM
lol that was funny


I'm an ******* but hey Ali's not the only one that throws punches
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c49/IrishInsomniac00/other%20boxing%20pictures/ssg-ujf-16k.jpg




http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c49/IrishInsomniac00/other%20boxing%20pictures/ali3.jpg
:D


Damn, Frazier even snapped Clay's head back with his right hand. Look at Clay's head going backwards.

Heckler
05-24-2006, 09:38 AM
Ali's **** is shoved so deep deep up his mouth, its blocking his brain.

Shoved deep up my mouth into my brain? So as well as being the greatest HW boxer ever he has a penis that defies physics and basic human biology? Thanks for that... now i don't have to bother retorting. :)

Dempsey 1919
05-24-2006, 05:51 PM
http://www.nytimes.com/books/98/10/25/specials/ali.9.jpg

http://www.brainevent.com/be/Images/foreman_frazier




















































































































:D

RockyMarcianofan00
05-24-2006, 06:00 PM
http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/images/40466000/jpg/_40466249_ali_foreman_5_300.jpg

where are we going with this

Heckler
05-24-2006, 06:26 PM
**** Marcianofan when was that picture of Marciano playing pingpong? Looks in brilliant condition there. Definately the frame for a 200 pounder.

RockyMarcianofan00
05-24-2006, 07:47 PM
**** Marcianofan when was that picture of Marciano playing pingpong? Looks in brilliant condition there. Definately the frame for a 200 pounder.
I believe that was him training to fight against Walcott for the title because thats the only time he wore the Grossingers and Holland Furnace shirts (to the best of my knowledge) let me double check

I'm pretty sure

Brassangel
05-25-2006, 12:44 PM
While Ali was out of shape when Marciano punched him in the gut, there's no way he was in worse shape than Marciano by that point. Ali had been removed from the ring for a couple of years, where Rocky had been away for more than ten. For those of us who exercise, you know that taking a little time off, while it softens your exterior, it doesn't mean that you can't take (almost) the same level of punishment you could before. This is still a worthless topic...

ricecrispi
05-25-2006, 01:48 PM
Jack johnson is overrated. Tyson is overratted. Lewis is overrated. Klistkho is overrated

Marciano is overrated due the zero he has in his record. If marciano fought longer he would've lost a few times.

Dempsey is underrated.

Brassangel
05-25-2006, 02:07 PM
I think I'm the most overrated boxer in history. I mean, I think I'm pretty skilled, and pretty talented, and I'm in good shape, but I couldn't touch the pros. Only in theory...or just in my head. :boxing:

Heckler
05-25-2006, 05:08 PM
While Ali was out of shape when Marciano punched him in the gut, there's no way he was in worse shape than Marciano by that point. Ali had been removed from the ring for a couple of years, where Rocky had been away for more than ten. For those of us who exercise, you know that taking a little time off, while it softens your exterior, it doesn't mean that you can't take (almost) the same level of punishment you could before. This is still a worthless topic...

Marciano trained for it like it was a fight, took it very serious indeed. I box and have done martial arts most my life, i can't even begin to comprehend the adverse effects of a 3 1/2 year layoff... because i know how a month layoff effects my own conditioning. Its irrelevant at any rate, the computer fight was a ridiculous concept.

RockyMarcianofan00
05-25-2006, 05:14 PM
Marciano trained for it like it was a fight, took it very serious indeed. I box and have done martial arts most my life, i can't even begin to comprehend the adverse effects of a 3 1/2 year layoff... because i know how a month layoff effects my own conditioning. Its irrelevant at any rate, the computer fight was a ridiculous concept.
not really considering it was entertaining to watch, plus it racked enough moeny not to be considered ridiculous. Sometimes things aren't always there to make sense just to make money

and let me tell you if i had a fight of Muhammad Ali vs Joe Schmoe and i knew it would rack in big bucks i'd definitely sell it to a theather :rolleyes:

RockyMarcianofan00
05-25-2006, 05:16 PM
Jack johnson is overrated. Tyson is overratted. Lewis is overrated. Klistkho is overrated

Marciano is overrated due the zero he has in his record. If marciano fought longer he would've lost a few times.

Dempsey is underrated.

duh, if any fighter fights to long he's bound to lose
example
Ali - Ali should have retired after he won the title from Leon Spinks but every fighter thinks they got one good fight left and thats there down fall

Even Marciano thought he had one good fight left and was ready to sign for 2 or 3 more fights but retired due to a back injury and manager problmes.

Brassangel
05-26-2006, 12:03 PM
Marciano may have trained for it like it was a real fight, but I guarantee his layoff was longer prior to that training. Plus, the man was in his 40's. I myself box, as well as practice Eagle Claw kung fu, and I can tell that I've lost stamina before anything else when I take time off. The skill is usually still there, albeit a little less fluid. If you watch videos of Ali when he was touring colleges and stuff during his layoff, there were a lot of times where he was still in fantastic shape. He was still training (although, not during or following his trip to Egypt), just not fighting in the ring. Therefore, it's safe to conclude that he suffered less from his time off than did Marciano. Marciano could keep punching when Ali would have finished dancing if they were both in their primes. I think he could have socked people for 25 rounds. No other power puncher had that kind of stamina.

Anywho, I still think I'm the most overrated fighter.

ROSEWOOD
05-26-2006, 02:37 PM
Who is the most overrated boxer in history?
Lennox Lewis....the dude ran away because them Kilt brothers was after his ass...Tyson was not overrated..his track record was goo greay then bad but he was still a force in his days...that lying ***** ****ed his life up...

RockyMarcianofan00
05-26-2006, 04:11 PM
Marciano may have trained for it like it was a real fight, but I guarantee his layoff was longer prior to that training. Plus, the man was in his 40's. I myself box, as well as practice Eagle Claw kung fu, and I can tell that I've lost stamina before anything else when I take time off. The skill is usually still there, albeit a little less fluid. If you watch videos of Ali when he was touring colleges and stuff during his layoff, there were a lot of times where he was still in fantastic shape. He was still training (although, not during or following his trip to Egypt), just not fighting in the ring. Therefore, it's safe to conclude that he suffered less from his time off than did Marciano. Marciano could keep punching when Ali would have finished dancing if they were both in their primes. I think he could have socked people for 25 rounds. No other power puncher had that kind of stamina.

Anywho, I still think I'm the most overrated fighter.

thats what i said

Ali had three years off, marciano was already off for 14 years. Marciano balooned up to over 300 pounds after he retired. In the making of the SuperFight he lost over 100 but he was still just under 250, no where near his prime 188. So his stamina was probably shot

Dye
05-26-2006, 04:14 PM
Lennox Lewis....the dude ran away because them Kilt brothers was after his ass...Tyson was not overrated..his track record was goo greay then bad but he was still a force in his days...that lying ***** ****ed his life up...
actually Tyson ****ed up his own life

kerrminator
05-26-2006, 06:50 PM
PBF and Ali

Floydko1
05-26-2006, 07:14 PM
Lennox Lewis....the dude ran away because them Kilt brothers was after his ass...Tyson was not overrated..his track record was goo greay then bad but he was still a force in his days...that lying ***** ****ed his life up...


Lewis overrtaed now hey :rolleyes:

If thts the case tht Marvin Hagler,Duran,Ali,Luis & Sugar :D

P.S Tyson was rather overrated in many ppls books most boxers he faced Lost before the the bell was even rang, Hey not saying Tyson was a awesome boxer cause he was but AT one time the meida where saying tyson was "unbeatable) which is OBV going 2 far (88,89) after spinks fight (Spinks was a true Light-heavy he was NO heavyweight) Spinks losts his balls 2 before tht fight,

tommyhearns804
05-26-2006, 07:59 PM
Marciano, i often see him at in positions 1, 2, 3. I can't see how that can be justified at all. I have no quarms with him at 5, 6 or anywhere later in the top 10. I like him alot and respect his ability but putting him in the top 3 is definately overrating him.

Mike Tyson. Everytime this man stepped up to a fighter willing to fight him, creating an enviroment of adversity he folded. This cannot be exscused especially when considering his 'greatness' relative to the other ATG's. My generation unfortunately tend to have him in the top 5, i have him at 10 and i think thats pretty damn fair.


Lol give me a break you racist fuks..Name one top 50 guy Marciano faced who weighed 220 plus pounds.The little italian boy never even faced a top 50 180 pound guy who was still in their prime never mind a real heavyweight but yet you say Tyson is overrated?At least Tyson was willing to fight 200 pound men.Even if they were a complete joke they were actual heavyweights.Guys like Frank Bruno,Bruce Seldom,Alex Stewart,Tony Tucker ect ect ect would of all beat the shyt out of any 180 pound fighter like Marciano but yet again Marciano is a top 5 all time heavyweight great even though he wasn't a heavyweight and never faced any heavyweights.
Lets say if Tyson was 180 pounds he would still be a far superior fighter than Marciano was.Tyson had fast hands...the man put his punches together..Tyson had some skill.Marciano had nothing.I never seen a fighter punch so slow.No matter how big they were i never seen a fighter throw his punches as slow as Marciano did.I never seen a fighter who whole career is a bunch of bull crap with the exception of Dempsey.When Marciano stepped up later in his career and start fighting more black fighters he struggled big time.Even though all of them were past their best or even smaller than he was.At some point in every fight Marciano was down in points or down on his butt.But yet because he has white skin he would just knock out Tyson right?
Tyson wasn't really that great but the man just didnt quit or get knocked down by one punch from guys his own size.So why would a weak little 180 pound man like Marciano be able to do it?Tyson would jump all over Marciano and destroy him.Just like 100's of more real 200 plus pound heavyweights would.
Marciano is the most overrated man in sports period.2006 and racism is still going on.You people crack me up.A bunch of white guys with no life.Angry because for the last 50 years blacks have ruled the sport of boxing.Still living in the past on some 180 pound glass chin cowardly italian fighter.Still trying to prove to yourself that he was some kind of a superhuman fighter who could so things no other black,mexican or puerto rican man could do.A fighter who never in his career faced any 220 pound pound real heavyweights but because of his skin color you still believe he could beat them.
Marciano isn't a top 100 fighter for a guy who weighed 180 pounds never less a top 100 heavyweight.

Dye
05-26-2006, 08:03 PM
with Tyson everytime someone fought back and jabbed him he would lose, tyson could not fight backing up

Violent Demise
05-26-2006, 09:44 PM
Mark Breland
Zab Judah
Antonio Margarito
Michael Grant
Ed Hopson

Abe Attell
05-26-2006, 10:04 PM
I doubht it considering he quit twice against Ali, granted this was basically the only time he quit

also he fought at probably a weaker time then Marciano, because i know thats gunna be ur first defense that he was better then "my boy marciano". Marciano's big names were better then Liston's, the only big names (that were probably better then marciano's competition) that liston really even fought were Muhammad Ali and Clevland Williams and Floyd Patterson. It's also widely believed that many of Liston's fights were fixed. I don't 100% believe them but it makes you wonder. I don't have any real proof but its widely known that Liston had mob ties and at that time the mob was heavy into boxing. Also his Punch is very overrated, now once again you'd attack Marciano but i'd also like to point out that they both used the same ounce glove and Liston never did near the damage that Marciano did.

He also lost to a man who he outweighed by 15lbs, this same man had a less then stelar record.

So yes i'd say liston is overrated because he's only considered good because he gave a very green Ali trouble and thats only basically because Ali had some sort of chemical in his eyes (most likely one of Liston's old tricks).

Who would you say was Marciano's biggest name opponents?

Archie Moore?
Jersey Joe Walcott?
Ezzard Charles?
Joe Louis?
Roland LaStarza?

LaStarza is probably the only guy that Marciano faced that was young and was in his "Prime"

A knock on Marciano is that he fought guys later in their careers; but it wasn't like Marciano had a choice, it was just the time in which he fought.

It is best to measure Marciano as a Cruiserweight, and maybe a lightheavyweight if you go by today's standards of being able to drop 10-15lbs of water weight for the weighin, then gain it back for fight time, making you 185+

RockyMarcianofan00
05-26-2006, 11:04 PM
Who would you say was Marciano's biggest name opponents?

Archie Moore?
Jersey Joe Walcott?
Ezzard Charles?
Joe Louis?
Roland LaStarza?

LaStarza is probably the only guy that Marciano faced that was young and was in his "Prime"

A knock on Marciano is that he fought guys later in their careers; but it wasn't like Marciano had a choice, it was just the time in which he fought.

It is best to measure Marciano as a Cruiserweight, and maybe a lightheavyweight if you go by today's standards of being able to drop 10-15lbs of water weight for the weighin, then gain it back for fight time, making you 185+

Marciano weighed a lean 188 in his prime, he had little fat and no water weight. That was in the 50's when fighters trained hard and kept a within a certain weight range. Marciano never fought below 185 in his prime and never above 189. By todays standards yes he would be a Crusierweight, but with todays training methods and supplements he would be well over 190 pounds of lean muscle. He'd most likely be closer to 200.

I think Walcott was more prime then lastarza,

Abe Attell
05-28-2006, 04:58 AM
Marciano weighed a lean 188 in his prime, he had little fat and no water weight. That was in the 50's when fighters trained hard and kept a within a certain weight range. Marciano never fought below 185 in his prime and never above 189. By todays standards yes he would be a Crusierweight, but with todays training methods and supplements he would be well over 190 pounds of lean muscle. He'd most likely be closer to 200.

I think Walcott was more prime then lastarza,

Everybody carries water weight, if you don't, you die :D

Ever see a fighter named Roy Jones? ;)
Does he look like he can lose any weight for a weighin?
He looks a lot more ripped than Marciano, and he manages to drain 10lbs out of his system for weighin time.

leff
05-28-2006, 03:11 PM
almost all the white boxers, imho.

hmmm let me guess your a black guy who adores tyson

RockyMarcianofan00
05-28-2006, 04:00 PM
Everybody carries water weight, if you don't, you die :D

Ever see a fighter named Roy Jones? ;)
Does he look like he can lose any weight for a weighin?
He looks a lot more ripped than Marciano, and he manages to drain 10lbs out of his system for weighin time.
no but thats exactly what i'm saying- Marciano was a lean 180, basically all muscle and if he took any weight off for a way in it would be unhealthy to do.

Abe Attell
05-29-2006, 02:33 PM
http://espn-att.starwave.com/media/box/2005/0930/photo/a_jonesjr_195.jpg

that is pretty dam lean, wouldn't ya say?

blockhead
05-29-2006, 04:01 PM
ali, liston, tyson.

Built 2 Last
05-29-2006, 07:36 PM
i feel antonio tarver is...cus he beat jones ppl love him

and ali is abit over rated

BAREKNUCKLES
05-29-2006, 11:42 PM
Mike Tyson is the most over-rated fighter. Even in his hey-day, he had troubles with mediocre club fighters who knew how to box. James Quick Tillis gave him trouble, Mitch Blood Green, Donovan Razor Ruddock, alot of these guys were bums, Bonecrusher Smith, it's a long list.

When the baddest man finally fought a truly skilled heavy who had his **** together, he was totally exposed as the circus act that he was.

Mike had devastating power, but he never had the heart of a champion. If you compare the hype to his actual performances in defining fights, it's easy to say he was over rated.

The 2nd most over rated guy I could think of in the last 30 years was Gerry Cooney.

At the time, Cooney was billed as great fighter, but crumbled under pressure, even to the likes of Michael Spinx.

SuzieQ49
05-30-2006, 12:44 PM
abe,


walcott and moore were at/near there primes when they fought marciano

charles was past his prime but was still a great fighter when he fought marciano and was the # 1 contender going into the first marciano fight. charles put on a preformance that would have toppled many champions yet marciano emerged victory.



moore may have been 38 but.........

beat 29 year old 6'3 215lb # 1 ranked nino valdes

beat 27 year old 6'2 215lb # 2 ranked bob baker

beat 25 year old 6'1 190lb # 4 ranked clarence henry


so moore may have been 38, but he was beating all the best YOUNG contenders out there

JerryJigsaw
05-30-2006, 01:16 PM
Chris Eubank.

rocco1252
05-30-2006, 06:01 PM
wow, that's biased. i could name 5 hw's that was better. ali, holmes, louis, foreman, tyson and others. :rolleyes:
YOUR PUTTING TYSON OVER MARCIANO?! HAHAHAHA BYE BYE BUTTERFLY'S CREDITABLITY! IF YOU STILL HAD ANY LEFT.

Dempsey 1919
05-31-2006, 02:12 AM
YOUR PUTTING TYSON OVER MARCIANO?! HAHAHAHA BYE BYE BUTTERFLY'S CREDITABLITY! IF YOU STILL HAD ANY LEFT.

yes, because he's better. :rolleyes: He's bigger, faster, stronger, hit's harder, more skilled, better chin, need I go on?

Abe Attell
05-31-2006, 07:38 AM
Tyson beat one of the greatest Lightheavyweight Champions in history, Michael Spinks, in 1 round...I wonder how long it would of taken Marciano?

Southpaw Stinger
05-31-2006, 09:31 AM
Tyson beat one of the greatest Lightheavyweight Champions in history, Michael Spinks, in 1 round...I wonder how long it would of taken Marciano?

Probably about 1 round. It is a light heavy after all and Marciano is a cruiser... i mean a heavyweight.

Yaman
05-31-2006, 09:35 AM
Probably about 1 round. It is a light heavy after all and Marciano is a cruiser... i mean a heavyweight.


Then lets say Floyd Patterson, Gene Tunney, Marciano, Jack Dempsey, Evander Holyfield etc would be ko'd in 1 round because they were from lower weight classes. Spinks was bigger than all of these guys except for Holyfield. So why do you say he was a LHW and nothing more, when he beat a very good HW at around 200.

Southpaw Stinger
05-31-2006, 09:42 AM
Then lets say Floyd Patterson, Gene Tunney, Marciano, Jack Dempsey, Evander Holyfield etc would be ko'd in 1 round because they were from lower weight classes. Spinks was bigger than all of these guys except for Holyfield. So why do you say he was a LHW and nothing more, when he beat a very good HW at around 200.

I was joking man since Marciano is from a lower weight to.....

Yaman
05-31-2006, 09:48 AM
Lol, right i didnt see the above post.



Anyway, do yall think Morrison was a bit overrated in the 90s?..

Southpaw Stinger
05-31-2006, 11:23 AM
Anyway, do yall think Morrison was a bit overrated in the 90s?..

You can thank Sylvester Stallone for that!

rocco1252
05-31-2006, 03:12 PM
yes, because he's better. :rolleyes: He's bigger, faster, stronger, hit's harder, more skilled, better chin, need I go on?
He's Bigger, more skilled and Faster yes, not more powerful, had no heart, couldnt fight going backwards, got knocked out by danny williams, buster douglas, lewis and holyfield, and quit against mcbride says alot about your so called "Iron" Mike Tyson.

rocco1252
05-31-2006, 03:19 PM
He's Bigger, more skilled and Faster yes, not more powerful, had no heart, couldnt fight going backwards, got knocked out by danny williams, buster douglas, lewis and holyfield, and quit against mcbride says alot about your so called "Iron" Mike Tyson.
and should I also mention that Holyfield was a blown up cruiserweight who beat Tyson wait not once but twice! Need I say more Fly?

Yaman
05-31-2006, 05:06 PM
He's Bigger, more skilled and Faster yes, not more powerful, had no heart, couldnt fight going backwards, got knocked out by danny williams, buster douglas, lewis and holyfield, and quit against mcbride says alot about your so called "Iron" Mike Tyson.

Tyson is more powerfull because he can put up a whole lot more punches than Marciano and their power is about equal. Tyson did have heart, he'd rather die in the ring than quit when he was young, Like against Berbick. Marciano cant fight backwards either. Most of Tyson's losses were when he was washed up. Marciano would also have losses if he went on untill an old age.

I gotta defend my boy.

Azteca
05-31-2006, 05:22 PM
tyson was one of the more overated fighters of the last century! he was marketed extremely well, and it worked. his management team conned 80% of the boxing population.

RockyMarcianofan00
05-31-2006, 06:01 PM
Tyson is more powerfull because he can put up a whole lot more punches than Marciano and their power is about equal. Tyson did have heart, he'd rather die in the ring than quit when he was young, Like against Berbick. Marciano cant fight backwards either. Most of Tyson's losses were when he was washed up. Marciano would also have losses if he went on untill an old age.

I gotta defend my boy.
Marciano knew that, hence the reason he wanted to retire on top as Gene Tunney and others had done before him. He had more prime fights in him but he had his reasons for retiring.

Also the only way Tyson could throw more punches in a round is if he beat Marciano to the punch but after 4 rounds going with marciano tyson would be tired out.

Tyson > Liston

Derranged
05-31-2006, 10:02 PM
TYSON. People still think that he can take over the divsion NOW! I dont like to say ALI, but he is overrated in the sense that people act as if he was this INDESTRUCTIBLE GOD. THe man was beatable. I still think that he was probably the best HW of all time but people exaggerate.

RockyMarcianofan00
05-31-2006, 11:42 PM
TYSON. People still think that he can take over the divsion NOW! I dont like to say ALI, but he is overrated in the sense that people act as if he was this INDESTRUCTIBLE GOD. THe man was beatable. I still think that he was probably the best HW of all time but people exaggerate.
100% true

Dempsey 1919
05-31-2006, 11:54 PM
He's Bigger, more skilled and Faster yes, not more powerful, had no heart, couldnt fight going backwards, got knocked out by danny williams, buster douglas, lewis and holyfield, and quit against mcbride says alot about your so called "Iron" Mike Tyson.

tyson quits when a 250lb. man hits him, not when a 180lb. cruiserweight hits him. :rolleyes: How is Tyson gonna quit against marciano? It's not like marciano could hurt tyson with his punches. marciano would get blasted in one round or less.

Da Iceman
06-01-2006, 12:01 AM
tyson quits when a 250lb. man hits him, not when a 180lb. cruiserweight hits him. :rolleyes: How is Tyson gonna quit against marciano? It's not like marciano could hurt tyson with his punches. marciano would get blasted in one round or less.
marciano couldnt hurt tyson? a ****ing bum douglas ktfo of tyson. marciano would have a 3rd round ko.

Dempsey 1919
06-01-2006, 12:02 AM
marciano couldnt hurt tyson? a ****ing bum douglas ktfo of tyson. marciano would have a 3rd round ko.

douglas had to hit him a million times to ko him. marciano wouldn't have the chance to throw that many punches cause he would be laying flat on his back in a matter of seconds.

Da Iceman
06-01-2006, 12:11 AM
yea ok. marciano can take a punch. all marciano has to do is hit tyson with 1 good shot to the body.

Dempsey 1919
06-01-2006, 12:31 AM
yea ok. marciano can take a punch. all marciano has to do is hit tyson with 1 good shot to the body.

Taking punches from Jersey Joe Walcott and taking punches from Mike Tyson are two different things.

RockyMarcianofan00
06-01-2006, 12:34 AM
Taking punches from Jersey Joe Walcott and taking punches from Mike Tyson are two different things.
Taking punches from Rocky Marciano and taking punches from Kevin McBride are two totally different things

I have to say Kevin McBride did not hit with all of Ireland behind him. :D

Dempsey 1919
06-01-2006, 12:47 AM
Taking punches from Rocky Marciano and taking punches from Kevin McBride are two totally different things

I have to say Kevin McBride did not hit with all of Ireland behind him. :D

but mcbride didn't ko tyson. he quit.

Azteca
06-01-2006, 12:48 AM
rocky marciano was unbelievable. no one is calling him the greatest of all time, but he was great, you better believe that. greatness should never be recorded on who beats who. greatness is measured on who you beat, when you beat them, and the conditions of the fight (was fighter A a house fighter etc). rocky marciano was never shown to be neutralized and in my book, that means he's great.

rocco1252
06-01-2006, 03:21 AM
Taking punches from Jersey Joe Walcott and taking punches from Mike Tyson are two different things.
you are such a moron look at the punch, watch Marciano's feet. Marciano punches and is off balance on one foot, he was hit with a devestating punch and went down got up within 3 seconds. Now if your own one foot, Ali's on one foot, Foremans on one foot and get hit with a nice solid hook off balance and dont fall over you got skills, now if you go down and your not dazed and can get up on 3 your fine and it says off balance in itself.

Dempsey 1919
06-01-2006, 03:44 AM
you are such a moron look at the punch, watch Marciano's feet. Marciano punches and is off balance on one foot, he was hit with a devestating punch and went down got up within 3 seconds. Now if your own one foot, Ali's on one foot, Foremans on one foot and get hit with a nice solid hook off balance and dont fall over you got skills, now if you go down and your not dazed and can get up on 3 your fine and it says off balance in itself.

That was moore, not watcott. :rolleyes:

Yaman
10-12-2006, 01:13 PM
Judging from the forum i really have to say George Foreman. The guy gets phraised for things that other fighters got discredit for. It all comes down to one thing: They're Ali fans.
How can you say someone like Tyson didnt fight the best because his opponents were scared of him, but when Norton had spaghetti legs, or when Frazier was running away from Foreman, you call him a powerfull great. I think its great he won the title at 45. But it was all luck given to him because of his religion imo.
I also dont understand how people claim Foreman wasn't prime when he got schooled by Jimmy Young. The truth is, Foreman could not beat every fighter in history except for Ali. Thats just overhyping so that that the fans make Ali look great. Foreman was beatable, like everybody.

Ofcource Tyson, Marciano etc are overrated a lot. But im gonna stick with Foreman for now.

Dempsey 1919
10-12-2006, 02:20 PM
Judging from the forum i really have to say George Foreman. The guy gets phraised for things that other fighters got discredit for. It all comes down to one thing: They're Ali fans.
How can you say someone like Tyson didnt fight the best because his opponents were scared of him, but when Norton had spaghetti legs, or when Frazier was running away from Foreman, you call him a powerfull great. I think its great he won the title at 45. But it was all luck given to him because of his religion imo.
I also dont understand how people claim Foreman wasn't prime when he got schooled by Jimmy Young. The truth is, Foreman could not beat every fighter in history except for Ali. Thats just overhyping so that that the fans make Ali look great. Foreman was beatable, like everybody.

Ofcource Tyson, Marciano etc are overrated a lot. But im gonna stick with Foreman for now.

Foreman wasn't at his best against Young. He wasn't as aggressive as he was before he fought Ali. Ali ruined Foreman, and he was never the same fighter again.

Southpaw Stinger
10-12-2006, 02:37 PM
Judging from the forum i really have to say George Foreman. The guy gets phraised for things that other fighters got discredit for. It all comes down to one thing: They're Ali fans.
How can you say someone like Tyson didnt fight the best because his opponents were scared of him, but when Norton had spaghetti legs, or when Frazier was running away from Foreman, you call him a powerfull great. I think its great he won the title at 45. But it was all luck given to him because of his religion imo.
I also dont understand how people claim Foreman wasn't prime when he got schooled by Jimmy Young. The truth is, Foreman could not beat every fighter in history except for Ali. Thats just overhyping so that that the fans make Ali look great. Foreman was beatable, like everybody.

Ofcource Tyson, Marciano etc are overrated a lot. But im gonna stick with Foreman for now.

I don't think thats quite fair Yaman. No one here has ever claimed Foreman is the GOAT yet there are many Tyson nuthuggers who do it with their man. And why do you think it's bad when people say Foreman was past his prime in the young fight when Tyson fans are happy to make excuses for him even when he was in his early 20's saying he was past his prime in 1990?
At least Foreman was able to get himself together and win the title in his 40's when Tyson was already deemed "finished" in his late 20's early 30's.

Yaman
10-12-2006, 05:09 PM
I don't think thats quite fair Yaman. No one here has ever claimed Foreman is the GOAT yet there are many Tyson nuthuggers who do it with their man. And why do you think it's bad when people say Foreman was past his prime in the young fight when Tyson fans are happy to make excuses for him even when he was in his early 20's saying he was past his prime in 1990?
At least Foreman was able to get himself together and win the title in his 40's when Tyson was already deemed "finished" in his late 20's early 30's.

Well, they havent claimed him the Goat, but i really feel like he's being overrated even by some of the best posters around here. His story is quite like Tyson, but its the credit he gets for things that fighters like Tyson were discredit for. That doesnt make sence to me. Tyson DUCKED Foreman his whole Career(No real proof such as interviews etc have been shown) But Foreman did not duck Holmes or Quarry(Proof of that is as fake as the 'tyson ducking foreman' claims). Liston and Tyson were bully's that got their asses kicked when someone stood up and fought back. But Foreman wasn't a bully that relied on fear Like a Tyson or Liston when Lyle was the first one to fight back and almost ko Big George. You know what i mean? These Foreman type fans are hypocrites. Thats annoying. I will admit though that Tyson is a lot more overrated than Foreman on this forum. Too obvious:nonono:
I didnt really compare them, just wanted to express myself about George Foreman ha ha

RAESAAD
10-12-2006, 05:18 PM
Judging from the forum i really have to say George Foreman. The guy gets phraised for things that other fighters got discredit for. It all comes down to one thing: They're Ali fans.
How can you say someone like Tyson didnt fight the best because his opponents were scared of him, but when Norton had spaghetti legs, or when Frazier was running away from Foreman, you call him a powerfull great. I think its great he won the title at 45. But it was all luck given to him because of his religion imo.I also dont understand how people claim Foreman wasn't prime when he got schooled by Jimmy Young. The truth is, Foreman could not beat every fighter in history except for Ali. Thats just overhyping so that that the fans make Ali look great. Foreman was beatable, like everybody.

Ofcource Tyson, Marciano etc are overrated a lot. But im gonna stick with Foreman for now.

WTF are you insane?

Yaman
10-12-2006, 05:20 PM
WTF are you insane?

well no, i dont have a naked chick on my avy on a Boxing forum.
I have strong beliefs, i could have said ''Blaahhh Foreman was just lucky!!'' but that would have been too harsh for the Foreman alias Ali nuthuggers!

RAESAAD
10-12-2006, 05:22 PM
well no, i dont have a naked chick on my avy on a Boxing forum.
I have strong beliefs, i could have said ''Blaahhh Foreman was just lucky!!'' but that would have been too harsh for the Foreman alias Ali nuthuggers!

This is an everything Forum..........Anyway Thats cool but saying it was luck because of his beliefs just sounds crazy to me....but then again I am not a religious person so I think everyone is crazy for buying into **** like that.......To each is own I guess...i was just suprised when I read that.

Yaman
10-12-2006, 05:26 PM
This is an everything Forum..........Anyway Thats cool but saying it was luck because of his beliefs just sounds crazy to me....but then again I am not a religious person so I think everyone is crazy for buying into **** like that.......To each is own I guess...i was just suprised when I read that.

Oh man, i feel sorry for you. I should have respected your immense hate for religions and maybe insulted my own beliefs so that i wouldnt shock you. Whatever, hope you understand what i meant now. peace.

RAESAAD
10-12-2006, 05:28 PM
Oh man, i feel sorry for you. I should have respected your immense hate for religions and maybe insulted my own beliefs so that i wouldnt shock you. Whatever, hope you understand what i meant now. peace.

Don't I will be fine...........Also I did not say I hated religion I just don't believe everything I was brainwashed....I mean taught to believe at church as a child.Peace...............

brownpimp88
01-10-2007, 10:00 PM
Marciano had little love for Liston, due to a few run ins the two had where Liston displayed contempt for his boxing ability in their conversations, but Rocky respected Liston's ability as a fighter. Johansson was a guy who the Rock had no respect for and he was truly annoyed by Ingo's playboy lifestyle and ****y personality. Marciano really wanted to knock Ingo out and I think he would have, even if he had to train down from the 250-300 pounds he weighed at the time and even in his old age.

Rocky enjoyed fighting old guys, why didn't he return the favour against ingemar and liston. O wait his manager aka the mob, wouldnt allow his paper legacy to go away could they kid achilles?

Brockton Lip
01-10-2007, 10:34 PM
lol, it's Mike Tyson III. Mike Tyson, crazy Mike Tyson Jr, and above; Mike Tyson III.

Dempsey 1919
01-10-2007, 11:29 PM
Rocky enjoyed fighting old guys, why didn't he return the favour against ingemar and liston. O wait his manager aka the mob, wouldnt allow his paper legacy to go away could they kid achilles?

I think you have Marciano confused with Liston.

Verstyle
01-10-2007, 11:30 PM
ali is ****in overrated. yeah i said it:nonono:

brownpimp88
01-10-2007, 11:34 PM
I think you have Marciano confused with Liston.

add me on msn, my buddy will tell you everything about it. Rocky was a fraud, hes top 10 for sure, but he aint that great myth that everyone makes him out to be.

Dempsey 1919
01-10-2007, 11:35 PM
lol, it's Mike Tyson III. Mike Tyson, crazy Mike Tyson Jr, and above; Mike Tyson III.

Haha, lol! I think I'm gonna call him that from now on.:banana:

Kid Achilles
01-10-2007, 11:45 PM
I'm sure that buddy of yours knows more than all the boxing historians in the world. :rolleyes:

brownpimp88
01-10-2007, 11:55 PM
I'm sure that buddy of yours knows more than all the boxing historians in the world. :rolleyes:

no but i was riding rocky's dick before he basically told me the truth about rocky. He also hooked me up with ****loads of footage during the 20's-30's era. Some of this footage includes greb sparring like a retard and the lack of fundamentle boxing skill that dempsey didnt have.

RockyMarcianofan00
01-11-2007, 12:11 AM
Heh this Thread brings back memories of all the times me and about 4 other people fought with Butterfly because of how much he underrates Marciano...

I still go with my orginal post-
Thee most overrated of all time as said before by me and others is no other then Jack Johnson. Jack Johnson was a giant for his times at 6'0. He fought bums, he fought in a much much weaker time then Marciano so don't go there. He used very very light gloves and still didn't do the damage of fighters that came after him.

Johnson fought many light heavyweights, and middleweights. Many of his fights even right up until he won the heavyweight title only had a couple fights. Some of his fights were against guys who only fought him and then retired. His biggest fight was against an obviously past his prime James J. Jefferies.

you think i'm lying about who he fought just look at his record for yourself
http://boxrec.com/boxer_display.php?boxer_id=1187

I'm very confident that if Jack Johnson was white nobody would of heard his name. Not a top10 fighter.

Granted he was a good historical figure, he went where no man had gone before (black man) and he broke the color barrier. Could historical figure, very overrated fighter.

Dempsey 1919
01-11-2007, 02:18 AM
Thee most overrated of all time as said before by me and others is no other then Jack Johnson. Jack Johnson was a giant for his times at 6'0. He fought bums, he fought in a much much weaker time then Marciano so don't go there. He used very very light gloves and still didn't do the damage of fighters that came after him.

Johnson fought many light heavyweights, and middleweights. Many of his fights even right up until he won the heavyweight title only had a couple fights. Some of his fights were against guys who only fought him and then retired. His biggest fight was against an obviously past his prime James J. Jefferies.

you think i'm lying about who he fought just look at his record for yourself
http://boxrec.com/boxer_display.php?boxer_id=1187

I'm very confident that if Jack Johnson was white nobody would of heard his name. Not a top10 fighter.

Granted he was a good historical figure, he went where no man had gone before (black man) and he broke the color barrier. Could historical figure, very overrated fighter.

Rocky'fan, that was, is, and forever will be a very dumb post. Let me break it down for you.

Thee most overrated of all time as said before by me and others is no other then Jack Johnson. Jack Johnson was a giant for his times at 6'0. He fought bums, he fought in a much much weaker time then Marciano so don't go there. He used very very light gloves and still didn't do the damage of fighters that came after him.

Johnson was closer to 6'-2", and just because you never heard of a fighter that fought a long time ago, doesn't make them bums. If anything, it shows your lack of boxing knowledge.

And for the most part, at least most of Johnson's opponents weren't past their primes like Marciano's were.

And if your gonna attack Johnson's punching power, then why don't you attack Ali's or Larry Holmes'. Many people still consider them great fighters, despite their "inability to devastate". Johnson wasn't huge on power, but huge on skill and intelligence, and that's what made him great.

Johnson fought many light heavyweights, and middleweights. Many of his fights even right up until he won the heavyweight title only had a couple fights. Some of his fights were against guys who only fought him and then retired. His biggest fight was against an obviously past his prime James J. Jefferies.

you think i'm lying about who he fought just look at his record for yourself
http://boxrec.com/boxer_display.php?boxer_id=1187

The records are inconclusive and change all the time. His opponents appeared to have had just a few fights, but that's because it was so long ago that boxrec does not possess every single fight that these people had.

Oh, by the way, Marciano and others fought light heavy's and middle's as well. It's not an oddity.

I'm very confident that if Jack Johnson was white nobody would of heard his name. Not a top10 fighter.

This may be the most idiotic part of this post yet. If Johnson was white he would actually have been ranked higher because he would have had a longer title reign. Jim Jeffries ducked him because he was black, and if he was white, they would have fought as early as 1904, Johnson winning, no doubt. He would have had the title up to 1915, which is just as long as Louis' reign. Not only that, but he probably would have been the first heavyweight to regain the title (over Jess Willard), seeing as how Johnson didn't train for that fight much anyway. Him being white would give him that opportunity to regain the title. He would have reigned until Dempsey won the title. Him being black has nothing to do with his ranking. He still won the title, and defended it eight times, and revolutionalized boxing wth his defensive style, being light years ahead of his time.

Granted he was a good historical figure, he went where no man had gone before (black man) and he broke the color barrier. Could historical figure, very overrated fighter.

Other fighters are built up because of their historical significance besides Johnson. Joe Louis, Muhammad Ali, Jack Dempsey, Mike Tyson, and a lot of others. If you attack Johnson for that, then why not attack them too?

Emon723
01-11-2007, 05:39 AM
Jack johnson has to be the most overrated in history, i do seen old clips of some of his fights and couldnt understand why most boxing historians rate him at top5, even as high as number 2 behind Ali, but looking at his record, he fought a smaller tommy burns, who weight in somewhere at light HW limit, an old jim jeffries, coming off a 5 year layoff, middleweight stanley ketchel was able to dropped him, marvin hart beat him, he reign for 7 years but how long did he defend his title, most of his fights went into no decision. yes he must be great in his era, but comparing him and to say he was better than frazier or foreman is ridiculous, Tyson once commented he didnt think johnson could be competitive in today's HW standards coz he was trained to throw one punch at the time and not a variety of combination of punches.

Southpaw Stinger
01-11-2007, 08:47 AM
Rocky'fan, that was, is, and forever will be a very dumb post. Let me break it down for you.



Johnson was closer to 6'-2", and just because you never heard of a fighter that fought a long time ago, doesn't make them bums. If anything, it shows your lack of boxing knowledge.

And for the most part, at least most of Johnson's opponents weren't past their primes like Marciano's were.

And if your gonna attack Johnson's punching power, then why don't you attack Ali's or Larry Holmes'. Many people still consider them great fighters, despite their "inability to devastate". Johnson wasn't huge on power, but huge on skill and intelligence, and that's what made him great.



The records are inconclusive and change all the time. His opponents appeared to have had just a few fights, but that's because it was so long ago that boxrec does not possess every single fight that these people had.

Oh, by the way, Marciano and others fought light heavy's and middle's as well. It's not an oddity.



This may be the most idiotic part of this post yet. If Johnson was white he would actually have been ranked higher because he would have had a longer title reign. Jim Jeffries ducked him because he was black, and if he was white, they would have fought as early as 1904, Johnson winning, no doubt. He would have had the title up to 1915, which is just as long as Louis' reign. Not only that, but he probably would have been the first heavyweight to regain the title (over Jess Willard), seeing as how Johnson didn't train for that fight much anyway. Him being white would give him that opportunity to regain the title. He would have reigned until Dempsey won the title. Him being black has nothing to do with his ranking. He still won the title, and defended it eight times, and revolutionalized boxing wth his defensive style, being light years ahead of his time.



Other fighters are built up because of their historical significance besides Johnson. Joe Louis, Muhammad Ali, Jack Dempsey, Mike Tyson, and a lot of others. If you attack Johnson for that, then why not attack them too?

what do you mean Johnson beating Jeffries no doubt? how can you be sure of that? Johnson in his prime was an extremely tough durable fight. The version that fought Johnson in 1910 had been inactive for many years and had to drop over 100lbs for the fight. Not to mention his only reason for fighting was that he was pressured out of retirement to be the great "white hope"

I'm not saying Johnson wouldn't have beaten him I'm just saying you can't make such a judgement on a fight they would have in 1904, based on a 1910 match up.

Dempsey 1919
01-12-2007, 12:59 AM
what do you mean Johnson beating Jeffries no doubt? how can you be sure of that? Johnson in his prime was an extremely tough durable fight. The version that fought Johnson in 1910 had been inactive for many years and had to drop over 100lbs for the fight. Not to mention his only reason for fighting was that he was pressured out of retirement to be the great "white hope"

I'm not saying Johnson wouldn't have beaten him I'm just saying you can't make such a judgement on a fight they would have in 1904, based on a 1910 match up.

Jeffries would never have beaten Johnson. Jeffries fought from a low croutch, and Johnson loves to fight people who fight low. Jeffries doesn't have the hand and foot speed Johnson does. Johnson was light years ahead of his time. There's a reason why he wasn't really taken into good fights at that time. It's not because his opponents weren't any good, but because his style was something new and nobody knew how to deal with it, same thing with Dempsey in the '20s, Louis in the '40s, Ali in the '60s, and Tyson in the '80s. Johnson toyed with Jeffries throughout the fight, and could have trounced him as early as the fourth round. I think even if he was in his prime, Jeffries wouldn't have enough tools to beat him.

RockyMarcianofan00
01-12-2007, 01:06 AM
Rocky'fan, that was, is, and forever will be a very dumb post. Let me break it down for you.



Johnson was closer to 6'-2", and just because you never heard of a fighter that fought a long time ago, doesn't make them bums. If anything, it shows your lack of boxing knowledge.

And for the most part, at least most of Johnson's opponents weren't past their primes like Marciano's were.

And if your gonna attack Johnson's punching power, then why don't you attack Ali's or Larry Holmes'. Many people still consider them great fighters, despite their "inability to devastate". Johnson wasn't huge on power, but huge on skill and intelligence, and that's what made him great.



The records are inconclusive and change all the time. His opponents appeared to have had just a few fights, but that's because it was so long ago that boxrec does not possess every single fight that these people had.

Oh, by the way, Marciano and others fought light heavy's and middle's as well. It's not an oddity.



This may be the most idiotic part of this post yet. If Johnson was white he would actually have been ranked higher because he would have had a longer title reign. Jim Jeffries ducked him because he was black, and if he was white, they would have fought as early as 1904, Johnson winning, no doubt. He would have had the title up to 1915, which is just as long as Louis' reign. Not only that, but he probably would have been the first heavyweight to regain the title (over Jess Willard), seeing as how Johnson didn't train for that fight much anyway. Him being white would give him that opportunity to regain the title. He would have reigned until Dempsey won the title. Him being black has nothing to do with his ranking. He still won the title, and defended it eight times, and revolutionalized boxing wth his defensive style, being light years ahead of his time.



Other fighters are built up because of their historical significance besides Johnson. Joe Louis, Muhammad Ali, Jack Dempsey, Mike Tyson, and a lot of others. If you attack Johnson for that, then why not attack them too?

Butterfly...You say I have limited boxing knowledge because of what I say, yet what I say is the truth....I understand that fighters may fought and not been recorded, but Jack Johnson really isn't as special as everyone makes him out to be....Its the fact that he was black and blacks were thought to be "inferior" in those times that distorts his image.....

You attack me but Johnson is one of the most overrated fighters with a legacy that is blown out of proportion, and I wouldn't be surprised to hear that those fighters did in fact only fight once....

You can't even say some of the fighters he fought weren't bums...How does it show my limited knowledge..Many of them were bums, having only one or two fights...

Don't take my response and act like I'm belittling him because he's from an early era in boxing, because I don't belittle people because of there era, I just look at fact...and they're in my original post...your going to defend him because you "idealize" him but once again refer to my post....

Dempsey 1919
01-12-2007, 01:28 AM
Butterfly...You say I have limited boxing knowledge because of what I say, yet what I say is the truth....I understand that fighters may fought and not been recorded, but Jack Johnson really isn't as special as everyone makes him out to be....Its the fact that he was black and blacks were thought to be "inferior" in those times that distorts his image.....

You attack me but Johnson is one of the most overrated fighters with a legacy that is blown out of proportion, and I wouldn't be surprised to hear that those fighters did in fact only fight once....

You can't even say some of the fighters he fought weren't bums...How does it show my limited knowledge..Many of them were bums, having only one or two fights...

Don't take my response and act like I'm belittling him because he's from an early era in boxing, because I don't belittle people because of there era, I just look at fact...and they're in my original post...your going to defend him because you "idealize" him but once again refer to my post....

Again, why not criticize Dempsey's cometition or someone else, not just Johnson? Dempsey's boxrec.com record is similar to Johnson (many fighters seeming to have had their pro debut), but I don't see you trashing him or Jeffries or any guys from around that time, just Johnson.

Some of Johnson's opponents were bums, but so were some of Ali's, Louis', Frazier's, Foreman's, Marciano's, Tyson's, Lewis', etc, etc, etc. Why not go after these guys? Nobody fights great fighters right down the line, you have to run into a few tomato cans eventually.

You keep mentioning this black thing, but you still have explained why being black supposedly boosted his legacy. There were so many fighters, who took a page out of Jack Johnson's style and used it later on to their advantage. Guys like Ali, Louis, Walcott and others used certain things in theri own personal style that Johnson used and were successful, so if Johnson was a poor fighter, then they wouldn't do that.

If you ever hope to win against me, you better find a better argument, buahahahahahaha!!:D

RockyMarcianofan00
01-12-2007, 01:48 AM
Again, why not criticize Dempsey's cometition or someone else, not just Johnson? Dempsey's boxrec.com record is similar to Johnson (many fighters seeming to have had their pro debut), but I don't see you trashing him or Jeffries or any guys from around that time, just Johnson.

Some of Johnson's opponents were bums, but so were some of Ali's, Louis', Frazier's, Foreman's, Marciano's, Tyson's, Lewis', etc, etc, etc. Why not go after these guys? Nobody fights great fighters right down the line, you have to run into a few tomato cans eventually.

You keep mentioning this black thing, but you still have explained why being black supposedly boosted his legacy. There were so many fighters, who took a page out of Jack Johnson's style and used it later on to their advantage. Guys like Ali, Louis, Walcott and others used certain things in theri own personal style that Johnson used and were successful, so if Johnson was a poor fighter, then they wouldn't do that.

If you ever hope to win against me, you better find a better argument, buahahahahahaha!!:D

Ok well I was half asleep with my last post which is why it was so "jostled" around......

Alright lets begin...*yawn*

Alright well Why not criticize Dempsey...
Well for starters he fought guys who were more reputable then most of Jack Johnson's opponents...Thats not because I don't know people that Johnson fought but because Dempsey actually did....
Jack Sharkey
Jess Willard (who actually did fight Johnson however Johnson lost likewise Dempsey won)
Luis Firpo (though I'm not entirely sure of his status at the time)
Gene Tunney (^^^^)

You don't see me trashing Jefferies, likewise you don't really see me promoting his record as godly either. I can see where people do though, He was the linear champion and lost to Johnson well past his prime...However I never really bothered to learn to much about Jefferies and don't promote him....

Trashing guys from Johnson's time like who?




Some of Johnson's opponents were bums, but so were some of Ali's, Louis', Frazier's, Foreman's, Marciano's, Tyson's, Lewis', etc, etc, etc. Why not go after these guys? Nobody fights great fighters right down the line, you have to run into a few tomato cans eventually.

How many times have I said this exact statement to you, only to be replied that "Ali has only fought one guy with a negative record..." I'm quite aware of this and have said this same thing, but Johnson has basically fought bums throughout his career....


Next..I have said why I keep mentioning the black thing....

"In the time of Johnson blacks were thought to be an inferior race of people, which is why they weren't allowed to play sports with whites (who were thought to be superior)...So because blacks were thought to be inferior, and a black fighter came out of no where and beat white guys who were thought to be superior people were in shock...This fighter even beat the "Great White Hope"...Because of these factors historical accounts can be sometimes exaggerated to make Johnson look better then he was because of that fact that he was supposed to be garbage....

There were so many fighters, who took a page out of Jack Johnson's style and used it later on to their advantage. Guys like Ali, Louis, Walcott and others used certain things in theri own personal style that Johnson used and were successful, so if Johnson was a poor fighter, then they wouldn't do that.

Notice how you said took a "page" out of his style...Which in turn means they adapted it to there liking/ making it better....It's the same in the case of Dempsey...Dempsey's style really wasn't perfect and guys like Marciano and Tyson took "pages" out of Dempsey's style and made it better...Marciano kept his hands up and took Dempsey's roll and improved it adapting it into his crouch, etc....

:D how was that, mind you I'm still alittle asleep :kiss:

Dempsey 1919
01-12-2007, 03:12 AM
Ok well I was half asleep with my last post which is why it was so "jostled" around......

Alright lets begin...*yawn*

Alright well Why not criticize Dempsey...
Well for starters he fought guys who were more reputable then most of Jack Johnson's opponents...Thats not because I don't know people that Johnson fought but because Dempsey actually did....
Jack Sharkey
Jess Willard (who actually did fight Johnson however Johnson lost likewise Dempsey won)
Luis Firpo (though I'm not entirely sure of his status at the time)
Gene Tunney (^^^^)

Jack Johnson's resume is better than Dempsey's. He fought and beat pretty much all of the top black fighters of the day. Dempsey did not. Johnson defended the title more often than Demspey as well. here is a list of the top name wins for both Johnson and Dempsey.

Jack Johnson:

Jim Jeffries
Sam Langford (black)
Sam McVea 3x (black)
Joe Jeanette 3x (black)
Bob Fitzsimmons
Tommy Burns
Stanley Ketchel
Philadelphia Jack O'Brien
Young Peter Jackson (black)
Frank Childs (black)
Black Bill (black)

Jack Dempsey:

Jack Sharkey
Jess Willard
Tommy Gibbons
Luis Firpo
Billy Miske
Bill Brennan 2x
Willie Meehan (black)
Fred Fulton
Carl Morris 3x

Dempsey only fought as far as I know one reputable black fighter, and none during his title reign. Johnson defended the title at least once against a black man, and during his stint as the colored champion, fought basically every reputable black fighter of his time. Sure some of them were green, but so was Johnson and he did at least fight them unlike Dempsey.

Trashing guys from Johnson's time like who?

Like Dempsey. He came a little later, but still both were long ago.

How many times have I said this exact statement to you, only to be replied that "Ali has only fought one guy with a negative record..." I'm quite aware of this and have said this same thing, but Johnson has basically fought bums throughout his career....

Just because they have winning records, doesn't mean their not bums.

Again, you don't know enough about the fighters in Johnson's time, so you can't say "he fought bums throughout his career", just because you are not familiar with them. And still, if he did, it's because he fought so often that you have to take the occasional stiff like I mentioned before. Look at Sugar Ray Robinson's record. There are lots of guys on his record that had records like 3-15, when Ray already had 100 fights. Why not go after him? What about Henry Armstrong doing the same thing? Why not go after them? Why just Johnson? (I think I'm on to your Johnson hating tendencies now)

Next..I have said why I keep mentioning the black thing....

"In the time of Johnson blacks were thought to be an inferior race of people, which is why they weren't allowed to play sports with whites (who were thought to be superior)...So because blacks were thought to be inferior, and a black fighter came out of no where and beat white guys who were thought to be superior people were in shock...This fighter even beat the "Great White Hope"...Because of these factors historical accounts can be sometimes exaggerated to make Johnson look better then he was because of that fact that he was supposed to be garbage....

I don't think that necessarily people were in shock, because this happened before with Peter Jackson and others, that's why blacks were ducked because the beltholders knew they would lose. It's just that Burns was the first one that had the balls to risk his title and fight Johnson, but everyone pretty much knew this would happen.

Ok, you said that about Johnson, now let me spin that to make other fighters look bad.

Joe Louis

"Because he beat Max Schmeling who was hyped up by Germany to be part of the master race and many people thought he would beat Louis because he beat him before. Also he fought "Bums of the Month" to make him look good and pad his record"

Muhammad Ali

"He scored an upset of Sonny Liston, who was old at the time and threw the fight, then when on his European tour beating bums like Brian London and Karl Mildenberger, then beat up on a washed up Joe Frazier, and he layed on the ropes against George Foreman and got lucky because he had no stamina and was an overrated crude, amateurish slugger. Also he is built up because of his stance on the Vietnam War, and became a hero and an inspiration to a lot of people non-boxing related."

Jack Dempsey

"Because America needed a hero after World War I, and because he beat a dumb slugger like Willard, who was old anyways. He became popular and was a big gate draw, and he was good-looking, which made women like him as well. He made boxing the most popular sport in America and provded action, which was what the public wanted."

Do you see where I'm going here? Reputable boxing historians studied his style and came to the conclusion that he was something way ahead of his time and would be a nightmare for any fighter. He was fast enough to handle little people, and strong enough to handle the big guys as well. He was nearly impossible to hit because of his cat quick defense, and he was a great counterer. He hit fairly hard, hard enough to hurt you, and he had incredible stamina. These are facts, and not so called "exaggerated accounts". With those attributes, he would have a good chance against any fighter.

Notice how you said took a "page" out of his style...Which in turn means they adapted it to there liking/ making it better....It's the same in the case of Dempsey...Dempsey's style really wasn't perfect and guys like Marciano and Tyson took "pages" out of Dempsey's style and made it better...Marciano kept his hands up and took Dempsey's roll and improved it adapting it into his crouch, etc....

:D how was that, mind you I'm still alittle asleep :kiss:

All I'm saying is that they took certain things he did and used them, they didn't "make them better."

Southpaw Stinger
01-12-2007, 07:49 AM
Again, why not criticize Dempsey's cometition or someone else, not just Johnson? Dempsey's boxrec.com record is similar to Johnson (many fighters seeming to have had their pro debut), but I don't see you trashing him or Jeffries or any guys from around that time, just Johnson.

Some of Johnson's opponents were bums, but so were some of Ali's, Louis', Frazier's, Foreman's, Marciano's, Tyson's, Lewis', etc, etc, etc. Why not go after these guys? Nobody fights great fighters right down the line, you have to run into a few tomato cans eventually.

You keep mentioning this black thing, but you still have explained why being black supposedly boosted his legacy. There were so many fighters, who took a page out of Jack Johnson's style and used it later on to their advantage. Guys like Ali, Louis, Walcott and others used certain things in theri own personal style that Johnson used and were successful, so if Johnson was a poor fighter, then they wouldn't do that.

If you ever hope to win against me, you better find a better argument, buahahahahahaha!!:D

I suppose it boosted his legacy because he was the first black champion. If he was white he would have been seen as a talented champ and defensive wizard... although if he was white he wouldn't have fought all of these white hopes that were continuously placed in the ring with him and maybe his reign might have been longer or briefer depending on what different competition that he would face.

Left2body
01-12-2007, 01:57 PM
To me the most over-rated fighter still active is ODLH. Dont get me wrong he is good and a HOF by its standards but he is often projected as this generations SRL. ODLH never did that great versus top competition. What I mean by that is, he never dominated or showed greatness against a top opponent. Quartey was a great fight but close, DLH struggled and its debatable he lost, the same with the Whitaker fight. Chavez doesn't really count do to the point in Chavez's career which it was fought.

You have Tito, Mosley Vargas and Hopkins left and out of those 4 he lost to 3 of them, although it is debatable he beat Tito). However even if you believe DLH beat Tito he still failed to impress or show greatness, he wanted to do something he never did before and that was be a slick boxer instead of a boxer puncher (he decided to change his stripes for the biggest fight of his career). While I think DLH was an very good fighter I just dont see him being as great as is projected and believe him to be overhyped due to a well placed Golden Boy media image.

Hydro
01-12-2007, 02:11 PM
Well, they havent claimed him the Goat, but i really feel like he's being overrated even by some of the best posters around here. His story is quite like Tyson, but its the credit he gets for things that fighters like Tyson were discredit for. That doesnt make sence to me. Tyson DUCKED Foreman his whole Career(No real proof such as interviews etc have been shown) But Foreman did not duck Holmes or Quarry(Proof of that is as fake as the 'tyson ducking foreman' claims). Liston and Tyson were bully's that got their asses kicked when someone stood up and fought back. But Foreman wasn't a bully that relied on fear Like a Tyson or Liston when Lyle was the first one to fight back and almost ko Big George. You know what i mean? These Foreman type fans are hypocrites. Thats annoying. I will admit though that Tyson is a lot more overrated than Foreman on this forum. Too obvious:nonono:
I didnt really compare them, just wanted to express myself about George Foreman ha ha

It is an exaggeration that people use.

Foreman defeated 40 fighters before he lost to Ali and not all of them were scared or "didn't fight back". Frazier feared no one.

I agree that Foreman is often overrated.

I never bought that whole "you just can't show fear and fight back and you'll beat them" argument. It's false.

Other guys fought back against Liston and Tyson and they still lost. Williams, Machen, Berbick, Bruno the first time, Ruddock, etc....

hemichromis
01-12-2007, 02:49 PM
Tyson. Mayweather Jr. is on his way to becoming most overrated.



i agree mayweather is No where near as goods as people think he's just very showy his fight against bladomir was a snoozefest

tyson is severly overrated by alot of young people who don't really know anything about boxing BUT he is underatted by old timers and is almost certainly a top10-15 of all time heavyweight on anyones list

hemichromis
01-12-2007, 03:00 PM
Both johnson ansd sdwempsey fought 'tomato cans' both (in their prime) were by far the best of their time. they were both way ahead of their time

Tony Jones
03-17-2008, 02:41 PM
I think Tyson is overrated by the general public, but underrated by alot of die-hard boxing fans. Of course, he has a lot of nuthuggers who claim to know alot about the sport, who also think he is invincible.

But basically - overrated by public, underrated by boxing historians etc., who give him no chance against some older fighters.

Exactly the point i was gonna make lol. I've always felt Ali was overated too. Not that he wasnt an all-time great, just that there have been better.

squealpiggy
03-17-2008, 06:50 PM
Exactly the point i was gonna make lol. I've always felt Ali was overated too. Not that he wasnt an all-time great, just that there have been better.

Wait it took you over a year to think up this response?

Tuggers1986
03-17-2008, 06:52 PM
Sugar Ray Robinson















JUST KIDDING

xEDDIEx
03-17-2008, 06:56 PM
muhammad ali

TheGreatA
03-17-2008, 06:58 PM
I've seen pretty much every great fighter there ever was listed in this thread.

I suppose you can make a case for any fighter being overrated.

Bendigo
03-17-2008, 11:39 PM
I would have to say Jack Dempsey, for sure.

Sweet Pete
03-17-2008, 11:47 PM
I've seen pretty much every great fighter there ever was listed in this thread.

I suppose you can make a case for any fighter being overrated.
Basically. It's all up to opinion.

SugarShanep4p
03-18-2008, 08:27 AM
tyson, if he couldnt knock someone out in 4 rounds he couldn't win.....as soon as he fought anyone decenth he got beat, holyfield, which he pulled that ear bull**** with the second time, lewis, and then he got beat by that bum douglass.

iron_boy
03-18-2008, 10:17 AM
tyson is the last fighter that will ever be over rated his proberly got the best k.o rate out of every fighter

Tony Jones
03-18-2008, 12:22 PM
Wait it took you over a year to think up this response?

been a member for only a week.

Dempsey 1919
03-18-2008, 12:50 PM
tyson, if he couldnt knock someone out in 4 rounds he couldn't win

Mike Tyson UD10 Mitch Green
Mike Tyson TKO10 Jose Ribalta
Mike Tyson UD12 Bonecrusher Smith
Mike Tyson KO6 Pinklon Thomas
Mike Tyson UD12 Tony Tucker
Mike Tyson TKO7 Tyrell Biggs
Mike Tyson TKO5 Frank Bruno
Mike Tyson TKO7 Razor Ruddock
Mike Tyson UD12 Razor Ruddock
etc, etc, etc......

The Iron Man
03-25-2008, 06:33 PM
Marciano and Liston have got to be up there for me. Not because they werent good. as heavyweights they were top 15. But too oftern i see them in top 3/5

Dempsey 1919
03-25-2008, 06:54 PM
Marciano and Liston have got to be up there for me. Not because they werent good. as heavyweights they were top 15. But too oftern i see them in top 3/5

Head to head Liston is not overrated, IMO.

fasman
03-25-2008, 07:00 PM
Lennox Lewis

xEDDIEx
03-25-2008, 07:08 PM
muhammad ali

BetterthanSugar
03-27-2008, 11:17 AM
since he's fighting tonight he's on the mind. i didn't think he beat judah the first time[ i scored it even and as the 12th round came to its end if you remember he had just been floored and was out on his feet] and i thought ricardo mayorga got the shaft from the ref in there fight for the undisputed welterweight tittle[ mayorga lost 2 points that would have mad the fight a draw].so to be honest never thought he won a big fight and he did nothing but run in his last fight with taylor. the judge that thought he won that fight was high. so in closing i think he's not just the most overrated fighter right now but maybee of alltime. he lives off his last name(father leon and uncle mike both legit heavyweight champs) because he cant fight.

Jim Jeffries
03-29-2008, 11:49 AM
Floyd Mayweather Jr.

RB23
03-29-2008, 11:52 AM
Oscar De La Hoya

JF91
03-29-2008, 05:03 PM
floyd mayweather

leff
03-29-2008, 05:14 PM
mike tyson, good sure but not the god he is made out to be

SugarShanep4p
04-03-2008, 08:27 AM
tyson = most overrated of all times. He never beat anyone decent before he went to jail, the two most notable names were an old out of shape michael spinks and and old out of shape larry holmes. When he finally met anyone decent (ie holyfield and lewis) he got steam rolled. Hes no doubt one of the best heavyweight to ever live, but hes extreamly overrated.

Elemental Fist
04-03-2008, 09:08 AM
I'm begining to think the use of the word overrated needs to be cut down for a while, whether some of choices were right on the money or just wrong, it only results in some fans trying to act like smartasses and try to make other fans look stupid for not agreeing with them.

Mr. Ryan
04-03-2008, 01:13 PM
I'd have to say Oscar de la Hoya, and I'll tell you why. The amount of attention he has received from the mainstream, you would believe he was Ray Robinson or Ray Leonard. Clearly he is not. For all of his great talents, he is more celebrity than fighter.

wpink1
04-11-2008, 06:36 PM
oscar de la hoya, then if we are considering Mayweather as a top 5 all time, then he is too. Dlh firstly, has never beaten a great great fighter who was at their peak in a convincing manner.

Mayweather is to me the best of today, but to consider him a All-time great, is stupid. His best victories are vs Correles (notice i left if at one)....How can you consider shot dlh a great stand out victory especially in the manner he fought..like lionel richie or something. Then judah who has been beaten by every fighter he ever faced that was tough. Baldomir,,,hmmm, Hatton was a very good jr welter, but what did he ever do at Welter, which is the division their fight was in. That leaves us with Castillo, which many feel he lost the first fight, and the 2nd fight was close as well.

J_CON
04-11-2008, 08:26 PM
I guess you could say that about Oscar. He has an amazing resume, but he did lose to his best opponents...Hopkins,Trinidad,Mayweather,Mosley.

Nemisis
04-11-2008, 08:36 PM
I'd say for that breif amount of time Buster Douglas was the most over rated boxer of all time. I remember that sega (I think) made a game after him right after he ko'd Tyson, Everyone thought he was legite. Then the very next fight "the real deal" ended it for him.