I'm trying to get educated about mma. Which org. is considered the best and WHY? What issues are there preventing fighters from different orgs. fighting each other? What are some examples of UFC/Pride/K1 mixed fights and under what org.'s rules were they fought?

Who are some all-time mma legends and what are they known for?

top org in the world is considered to be PRIDE. this is mainly thanks to the number of top stars that they have. Fedor, Nogueira, Cro Cop, Wanderlei Silva, Yoshida, Fujita, Gomi, Henderson, and many others all fight in the PRIDE ring. K-1 has Norifumi KID Yamamoto, Genki Sudo, Sakuraba, Hideo Tokoro, and others. UFC has Chuck Liddell, Ortiz, Arlovski, and many up and comers.

the most immediate difference you'll notice between the different orgs is the ring. it's either the cage or a traditional ring with more ropes. the rules differ for each organization based on the sanctioning commitees. in PRIDE, there are soccer kicks, stomps and knees allowed to the head while on the ground. there are no elbows however. UFC will not allow knees to the head, or soccer kicks while a fighter is on the ground. tho they will allow elbows.

the only time i've ever seen anyone from the UFC go up against a PRIDE fighter was in the PRIDE middleweight GP when Liddell went up against Rampage. since it was fought in a PRIDE ring, it was fought under PRIDE rules. Rampage won that fight.

what keeps the orgs from fighting each other? most likely politics and money. it doesn't mean that a fighter can't jump ship or go to another org after their contract is up, but it would be near impossible to have a contracted fighter go fight in another org. it would damage the name of the other organization and also damage the fighter.

here are some sites you can check out to read more. www.subfighter.com and www.sherdog.com. i suggest avoiding the sherdog forums tho. i think that www.ironlife.com is still up too. but i haven't been there in a long time.

Didn't wanderlei just get his ass handed to him by Slyvia in UFC?

Didn't wanderlei just get his ass handed to him by Slyvia in UFC?

nope. the last person that tim "the maine-iac" sylvia faced was Andrei Arlovski. Arlovski was heralded as the heavyweight saviour of the UFC. but he was knocked out by an uppercut.

Wanderlei Silva is the PRIDE middleweight champ (this is kinda odd, cause Wand is technically a light heavyweight, but that's semantics). the last person that Wanderlei lost to was Ricardo Arona. Wanderlei is known for his stand up muay thai skill. the majority of his wins come from knockout either via punch or knees. but he is a black belt in BJJ. most people would like to see him face Liddell to see who can lay claim to the title of best striker at Light Heavy. that prolly will never happen, unless someone jumps ship.

nope. the last person that tim "the maine-iac" sylvia faced was Andrei Arlovski. Arlovski was heralded as the heavyweight saviour of the UFC. but he was knocked out by an uppercut.

Wanderlei Silva is the PRIDE middleweight champ (this is kinda odd, cause Wand is technically a light heavyweight, but that's semantics). the last person that Wanderlei lost to was Ricardo Arona. Wanderlei is known for his stand up muay thai skill. the majority of his wins come from knockout either via punch or knees. but he is a black belt in BJJ. most people would like to see him face Liddell to see who can lay claim to the title of best striker at Light Heavy. that prolly will never happen, unless someone jumps ship.

I dont know much about MMA though my avatar is crocop. But I tend to think Liddel sucks from the couple of fights ive seen of him. He basicly boxes with a bad stance. I may be wrong but thats how I see it.

i don't like liddell that much either. but he is a proven fighter and dictates the fight in his way. he keeps it standing up by having a great take down defense. the main reason he's been dominant as champ is because he has punching power. his game is based on playing to his strengths. it's hella smart IMO.

the reason youll see stand up fighters do bettin in the UFC is cause the size of the ring.

I think I have some invites to MMA tracker if anyone wants one? :boxing:

the reason youll see stand up fighters do bettin in the UFC is cause the size of the ring.

I think I have some invites to MMA tracker if anyone wants one? :boxing:

i'd like one if possible. thanks.

yea liddell is nice, packs a hell of a punch. I would luv to see him and forrest griffen trade bombs. Mark hunt from k-1 entered pride recently and has done very well beatin some notable names such as cro cop and silva after losing his first fight hes won 5 straight, but other crossovers such as stephan leko havent dont so well in pride 0-3.

I'm trying to get educated about mma. Which org. is considered the best and WHY? What issues are there preventing fighters from different orgs. fighting each other? What are some examples of UFC/Pride/K1 mixed fights and under what org.'s rules were they fought?

Who are some all-time mma legends and what are they known for?
All mma orgs have their pros and cons. ALL of them. Having said that.

Today, in 2006...Pride fc is still the n#1 mma organisation BY FAR.

Reasons.
1) MMA is bigger in japan and other asian countries too such as Korea. and It's growing in europe too. But the point is. Most of Pride's events have an average attendance of 50 000 to 65 000 fans.

2) Pride happens to have the closest rules to Vale Tudo. (old school mma. meaning "everything goes").
Unlike the UFC , Pride allows knees on a downed opponent, stomps, soccer kicks. and fighters are also allowed to wear shoes and the Gi. They do Ban elbows to the face though. However, they're allowed on the body.

3) Judging/fight system
Each fights have a first 10 minutes Round. The 2nd and 3rd round both last 5 minutes. The judges will give more points to the most active fighter. If a fighter presses the action. If He dammages his opponent the most, if he scores sub attempts and so on.. Then He's likely to win the decision.

In the UFC. People can "lay and pray" and still score points. It doesn't matter how many takedowns you've got in Pride, you just need to inflict the maximum dammage and to be as dominant as possible and always press the action.
When fighters are stalling (doing nothing on the ground), They receive yellow cards. (meaning that money is substracted from their Paycheck or maybe Bonus check).

4) Unlike the UFC, Pride showcases "international" talents.
The UFC is mainly an american organisation. showcasing american fighters. They also have canadians ,& VERY few foreigners..
Pride is a japanese organisation. But they have all sorts of fighters. From many different countries.

5) Pride fc owns the best Heavyweight fighters in mma. They actually own 3 elite HWs under the same roof. And one of them happens to be the best mma fighter in history. A living legdend.

6 It's safe to say that Pride also owns the best Light heavyweight division in mma. The Ufc owns Chuck Liddell , Renato Sobral & Tito Ortiz and that's it. no other LHW is a serious contender.

7 Pride organises "grand prix" events. A grand prix works by elimination.
For example, this year, the open weight grand prix had 16 fighters. the winner get to fight in the 2nd round , meaning that 7 fighters will participate in the next grand prix. and the winners of this GP all go to the final.
What's interesting in the "final" is that most fighters have to have 2 fights on the same day. It's a real marathon.
It not only takes skills and stamina. But also , luck to win the entire thing.

8 Pride pays better money. NOT ALL fighters make tons of cash In pride. But generally speaking, most of them even the very mediocre ones, will make better money.

Fighters who are good for the ratings can make BIG money.
An mma fighter such as Yoshida (who's ultra popular) , made $2million for a single fight vs Ogawa last year. (and I'm not even counting the bonus check). Fedor Emelianenko can now make up to $1million per fights. Back when He was unknown, He used to make 140 000 or $300 000 . But He's making way more today.
Of course, Fedor and Yoshida are special cases and like I said, not all fighters are paid like this.

9 Pride owns confirmed Olympic athletes or Real talents of diverse disciplines.
Fedor is a multi world combat sambo champion.
Yoshida is a judo olympic gold medalist.
Werdum and Nogueira are ADCC elites.

When you compare the likes of Arlovski for example.
He's often refered to as a world sambo champion. Which is false.
The UFC ans his official website are claiming this. But in reality. AA was just a mere junior champ. The difference is quite enormous.

MONEY doesn't necessarily create the best fighters though.
The UFC owns amazing fighters such as Penn & George St Pierre for example. They don't make lots of money compared to certain pride fighters in the same weight category but that doesn't mean they're inferior for it. They have the potential to dominate in Pride too.

there's Another Organisation , which is currently getting bigger and bigger. a Japanese Org called "Heros". They don't have huge talents. That's their main weakness.
However, they're paying huge paychecks. Pride fc is sometimes forced to pay their top fighters better money each year cause Heros keeps proposing more cash on the table.

Heros is in direct affiliation with K1. which is why it's called "K1's Heros." Though , this org lacks some major talents.. They still own the absolutely amazing mma fighter Norifumi "kid" Yamamoto. Who's P4P one of the best. (not counting Fedor). There's also Genki Sudo and a few others but anyway. I think you know the essential here.

UFC and K-1 signed a talent swapping agreement - which is why Royce is fighting in UFC against Hughes :) UFC and K-1 decided to "team up" to try to reduce Prides image as the leader in the sport.

I dont know much about MMA though my avatar is crocop. But I tend to think Liddel sucks from the couple of fights ive seen of him. He basicly boxes with a bad stance. I may be wrong but thats how I see it.

Even people who don't know much about mma have at one point heard about Liddell.
Personally, I don't like him cause He sets a bad example on mma.
Here's why.

He's a kempo fighter. And He also has some limited kickboxing technics. I'm saying "limited". Because compared to someone such as Mirko Filipovic, Liddell's kicking abilities are a joke.

I don't hate the guy personaly. He's probably a nice person in real life.
But the reason why I don't like Him in mma is because He's very one dimensional. I watch boxing, kickboxing, mma, sambo and even judo competitions too from time to time.

When you're used to seeing pro boxing. Liddell's striking obviously looks terrible. Obviously, mma fighters aren't specialised with their punching technic like pro boxers since they have to practice too many things. Plus, they have to worry about takedowns, and most mmaers are predominantly, ground fighters (wrestlers, judokas, bjj fighters, sambo fighters etc..)

The thing with Liddell though.. Is that He's got the KO power.
It's undeniable. And He's got a pretty solid chin too. And His sprawl is good enough to avoid the ground.
But that's not what mma is about.

This so called lhw "champ" gives a negative image because this just proves that a striker, with a good sprawl and a good chin can dominate without problem under mma rules.
Know what I mean?
Why not bring Klitschko? Tua? Lyakhovich? Brewster? Calzaghe ,Pacquiao ,Mayweather etc ..

That's what I'm thinking when I'm watching Liddell!
Let's say, the UFC would pay at least as much as Pride, or let's say, they'd be paying the type of money the #1 lhw or HW pro boxers are making.

ALL it would take for them to be champs, would be to train some basics with ground defense, and to naturally, avoid the ground as much as possible. just like Liddell. With a solid sprawl, they'd have little problems. Even under mma rules.

And that **** is Humiliating for this sport. A REAL MMA fighter is forced to be well rounded.
Chuck Liddell was outclassed by a freakin wreslter! both standing and on the ground when He went to Pride.

The truth is that Liddell's **** works in the UFC because, ufc's LHW division is horrible.

Liddell's **** wouldn't work in Pride and He probably knows it.
He'd be exposed in no time.

YOU CAN'T DO that **** in pride. Liddell's technic doesn't work.

EVEN Mirko crocop, was forced at one point in his career to face the truth. and Mirko's striking is way faster, powerful more accurate than Liddell's. Mirko's jab looks just like a pro boxer's jab. Mirko's kicks are ****ing dangerous. But despite all that.
He's training BJJ with Werdum. because He knows that the sprawl can't save him vs the type of competition He's forced to face.
Wrestling, Judo, bjj are part of Mirko's training.
He HAS changed over the years. Because striking can't save your ass vs elite ground fighters. You can get lucky , once or twice, but on the long run. It won't work.

Unfortunately, Chuck Liddell's competition is too weak. So He gets away with it.
Ortiz, Can't handle Liddell's striking. Couture, lost twice before retiring. (way past his prime) and got caught like an amateur. Sobral, is the only decent bjj artist in Liddell's division. But He's not good enough to take liddell were He wants too.
Sobral is Liddell's only threat. But Sobral is no Rogerio.
Who knows what will happen next..
But it would be great to see Sobral winning. But I doubt it.

UFC and K-1 signed a talent swapping agreement - which is why Royce is fighting in UFC against Hughes :) UFC and K-1 decided to "team up" to try to reduce Prides image as the leader in the sport.

You're wrong.
Royce makes an average of $1.5million per fights in Heros.
UFC ain't paying him that type of money, but He's still doing it because He wants to prove that bjj is n1. He's probably gonna get his ass kicked.

Dana White refuses to invite Jerome Le Banner in ufc's HW division. Categorically refused K1's offer. because unlike Royce, Jerome would represent K1.
and it would be terrible to have Sylvia getting murdered in no time by a 270lbs top kickboxer.

Dana white also refused many other offers. Such as Kharitonov vs Sylvia too.

Jerome even proposed 1 match under ufc and one under K1 rules. and Dana still refused. Days later Jerome even told UFC reps that He'd be willing to accept the ufc fight only. But again.. It was a no no situation.

UFC wants jerome to be a ufc fighter. they want him to sign a contract. But that's not possible because Jerome wouldn't make the type of money he's currently making.
They don't want jerome to have a free ticket vs Sylvia, beat his ass and go back to K1 because that would be just as humiliating as what happened to chuck Liddell when he entered Pride fc in 2003.

Jerome needs to represent the ufc in order for it to be an "acceptable" deal.

Royce is representing himself. He's one of the most popular mma fighter in history. He can do whatever he wants. even if he gets owned, Pride or Heros would accept him back.
Because He's good for the ratings.

Liddell is effective, period. That's all that matters.

Liddell was expose when he faught Quintin 'Rampage' Jackson...nuff said. I wouold like to see Fedor or Cro Cop beat the life out of Sylvia though :D

I always thought that the money and popularity created a better overall talent pool in Pride but Gandalf is 100x more eloquent than I am and even schooled me on a few things I was unaware of.

I do know that Sylva fought in UFC atleast twice if I recall correctly against Tito Oritiz and (forgot that brazilian punchers name). Sylva also fought Cro cop in Pride with Pride Gloves but I believe it was K-1 rules (meaning after takedowns they went back to stand up). It was also agreed that if the fight went the distance it would be considered a no decision or a draw (no positive as to which one).

Liddel got murdered by Rampage who slammed him a few times with the last slam actually finishing Chuck who either quit or his corner threw in the towel, not sure which.

If you look at UFC you will notice that most takedowns finish off near the cage even if the started in the middle of the ring, the mommentum 99% of the time takes them to the edge. Chuck is excellent at using the fence to sit up and do a sort of squat back up while keeping his weight on his back against the fence. So ground guys have tougher time keeping Chuck down.

Ground and pound while in someones guard also tends to work better in the UFC due to the fact that after a takedown near your on or near the fence and they just put the bottom man against the fence. The guys head is wedged and the top guy has better leverage than if it was in the middle of the ring.

Wanderlei Silva, had 3 fights in the ufc
The 1rst one was vs Vitor Belfort. (He was totally humiliated)
The 2nd one was vs Petarra. (which He won)
the 3rd one was vs Ortiz. (lost again but via decision).

Before the ufc, Silva used to fight in vale tudo competitions.
After his loss vs Ortiz He had one last, vale tudo fight and then, He became a Pride fc fighter. (He hasn't left Pride since 2000)

In 2002, Silva had a fight vs Crocop. But it wasn't a K1 ruled fight. However, the rules were slightly modified. Whenever the fight ended on the ground. The ref would force the fighters to stand up after 1 minute.
Back In 2002, crocop was just a mere Kickboxing fighter, Nothing else. He had a good sprawl and that was it. The fight ended in a "draw". and like you said, no "decision" was possible in that fight.
Basically, Silva had all the takedowns and the ground domination and Crocop landed the best shots during the stand up parts of the fight.
The Crocop of today would probably annihilate Silva though.

As for the Liddell vs Jackson fight.
That was in 2003. & Dana White was also present in japan, in the saitama super arena, He was sitting next to Bas Rutten.
I think that was the first and last time that a fighter was representing the ufc in Pride fc.
Liddell was doing his usual thing, but unlike Ortiz, Jackson (who's also a wrestler) had no problems blocking any of Liddell's attacks. The fight ended on the ground. Basically, Jackson finished Liddell via TKO.
He was raining elbow strikes to Liddell's body. And chuck was doing nothing. So Liddell's corner had to stop the fight.

In 2005, Belfort came back to Pride but not as a ufc rep. It was a one fight deal though. He lost and then, He came back to the UFC.

Today, the most dominant ex UFC fighter of the moment is Josh Barnett. He's currently participating in pride's OWGP. But He's not representing the UFC. He's a pride fighter.
He lost 2 fights vs Mirko Crocop, then won a fight vs Nakamura and just recently won vs Alexander Emelianenko. (who's pretty ****ing far from being as skilled as Fedor Emelianenko). But He's still a good fighter though. But He lacks the ground technic. His ground defense isn't good enough.

Liddel's lost is not because of pride rules. He is just a bad match up against Jackson. He's still competitive with most LHW including PRIDE. Against Vanderlei in UFC Liddel has a good chance at winning.

THe problem with UFC is the Octagon. You can pin the guy against the fence but the guy getting takedown cant grab it. Submission fighters don't like the UFC for that reason because the bigger fighters especially at LHW will use that tactic.

That makes the UFC less dangerous and more wrestler orientated. Guys like Corture can dominate in UFC but get his arm caught against Arona, Benn, or Inoue every time in 1 round.

Wanderlei Silva, had 3 fights in the ufc
The 1rst one was vs Vitor Belfort. (He was totally humiliated)
The 2nd one was vs Petarra. (which He won)
the 3rd one was vs Ortiz. (lost again but via decision).

Before the ufc, Silva used to fight in vale tudo competitions.
After his loss vs Ortiz He had one last, vale tudo fight and then, He became a Pride fc fighter. (He hasn't left Pride since 2000)

In 2002, Silva had a fight vs Crocop. But it wasn't a K1 ruled fight. However, the rules were slightly modified. Whenever the fight ended on the ground. The ref would force the fighters to stand up after 1 minute.
Back In 2002, crocop was just a mere Kickboxing fighter, Nothing else. He had a good sprawl and that was it. The fight ended in a "draw". and like you said, no "decision" was possible in that fight.
Basically, Silva had all the takedowns and the ground domination and Crocop landed the best shots during the stand up parts of the fight.
The Crocop of today would probably annihilate Silva though.

As for the Liddell vs Jackson fight.
That was in 2003. & Dana White was also present in japan, in the saitama super arena, He was sitting next to Bas Rutten.
I think that was the first and last time that a fighter was representing the ufc in Pride fc.
Liddell was doing his usual thing, but unlike Ortiz, Jackson (who's also a wrestler) had no problems blocking any of Liddell's attacks. The fight ended on the ground. Basically, Jackson finished Liddell via TKO.
He was raining elbow strikes to Liddell's body. And chuck was doing nothing. So Liddell's corner had to stop the fight.

In 2005, Belfort came back to Pride but not as a ufc rep. It was a one fight deal though. He lost and then, He came back to the UFC.

Today, the most dominant ex UFC fighter of the moment is Josh Barnett. He's currently participating in pride's OWGP. But He's not representing the UFC. He's a pride fighter.
He lost 2 fights vs Mirko Crocop, then won a fight vs Nakamura and just recently won vs Alexander Emelianenko. (who's pretty ****ing far from being as skilled as Fedor Emelianenko). But He's still a good fighter though. But He lacks the ground technic. His ground defense isn't good enough.


You're wrong. Chuck fought in in Pride's Total Elimination 2003 tournoment. In his first fight against Alistair Overeem, Chuck KO'ed him in the 1st round. When they came back 6 months later for the fights, Chuck had a torn quad muscle. If you watch the fight against Rampage(instead of just bashing Chuck and the UFC) you will see Chuck has no movement at all.

Watch the Chuck/Overeem fight you'll see Chuck using knees and kicks. With the Pride rules, knees come into effect alot more. Chuck trained using knees but after his quad injury he was left flatfooted. Just watched the fight openminded.

Chuck also fought Guy Mezger in Pride's 'Clash Of the Titans.' He KO'ed him in the 2nd RD. Ricco fought Big Nog in Pride as a UFC Rep. He lost a bogus decision. He completely dominated that fight. Gan McGhee has fought in Pride twice. Vitor fought as a UFC twice. Against Overeem and Saku. He also fought Bobby Southworth in Pride.

If I had more time I would get a list of UFC fighters that have fought in Pride.


You say Josh "lacks the ground technic. His ground defense isn't good enough." Are you smoking crack?????? Josh is 17-3. He has 11 wins by submission. Thats 67% of his wins. He has never been submitted. In his 3 losses he got KO'ed by Pedro Rizzo. He sperated his shoulder against Mirko in the first fight and lost a split decision in his second fight. So please tell me where you came up with that theory.


Please answer my questions. I can't wait for your reply

Even people who don't know much about mma have at one point heard about Liddell.
Personally, I don't like him cause He sets a bad example on mma.
Here's why.

He's a kempo fighter. And He also has some limited kickboxing technics. I'm saying "limited". Because compared to someone such as Mirko Filipovic, Liddell's kicking abilities are a joke.

I don't hate the guy personaly. He's probably a nice person in real life.
But the reason why I don't like Him in mma is because He's very one dimensional. I watch boxing, kickboxing, mma, sambo and even judo competitions too from time to time.

When you're used to seeing pro boxing. Liddell's striking obviously looks terrible. Obviously, mma fighters aren't specialised with their punching technic like pro boxers since they have to practice too many things. Plus, they have to worry about takedowns, and most mmaers are predominantly, ground fighters (wrestlers, judokas, bjj fighters, sambo fighters etc..)

The thing with Liddell though.. Is that He's got the KO power.
It's undeniable. And He's got a pretty solid chin too. And His sprawl is good enough to avoid the ground.
But that's not what mma is about.

This so called lhw "champ" gives a negative image because this just proves that a striker, with a good sprawl and a good chin can dominate without problem under mma rules.
Know what I mean?
Why not bring Klitschko? Tua? Lyakhovich? Brewster? Calzaghe ,Pacquiao ,Mayweather etc ..

That's what I'm thinking when I'm watching Liddell!
Let's say, the UFC would pay at least as much as Pride, or let's say, they'd be paying the type of money the #1 lhw or HW pro boxers are making.

ALL it would take for them to be champs, would be to train some basics with ground defense, and to naturally, avoid the ground as much as possible. just like Liddell. With a solid sprawl, they'd have little problems. Even under mma rules.

And that **** is Humiliating for this sport. A REAL MMA fighter is forced to be well rounded.
Chuck Liddell was outclassed by a freakin wreslter! both standing and on the ground when He went to Pride.

The truth is that Liddell's **** works in the UFC because, ufc's LHW division is horrible.

Liddell's **** wouldn't work in Pride and He probably knows it.
He'd be exposed in no time.

YOU CAN'T DO that **** in pride. Liddell's technic doesn't work.

EVEN Mirko crocop, was forced at one point in his career to face the truth. and Mirko's striking is way faster, powerful more accurate than Liddell's. Mirko's jab looks just like a pro boxer's jab. Mirko's kicks are ****ing dangerous. But despite all that.
He's training BJJ with Werdum. because He knows that the sprawl can't save him vs the type of competition He's forced to face.
Wrestling, Judo, bjj are part of Mirko's training.
He HAS changed over the years. Because striking can't save your ass vs elite ground fighters. You can get lucky , once or twice, but on the long run. It won't work.

Unfortunately, Chuck Liddell's competition is too weak. So He gets away with it.
Ortiz, Can't handle Liddell's striking. Couture, lost twice before retiring. (way past his prime) and got caught like an amateur. Sobral, is the only decent bjj artist in Liddell's division. But He's not good enough to take liddell were He wants too.
Sobral is Liddell's only threat. But Sobral is no Rogerio.
Who knows what will happen next..
But it would be great to see Sobral winning. But I doubt it.


This is to easy. Chuck sets a bad example for MMA but it's ok with Wanderlia Siva's wild ass punching? Other then brawling what does Silva bring to the table? Lets see, Chuck wrestled 4 years in college. His trainer, John Hackleman, will tell you they don't train to have "pretty punches" they train for power. Chuck's sprawl is legendary in MMA. You know MMA stands for MIXED Martial Arts, right? Yes bring the boxers in and have them stop a takedown like Chuck :rolleyes:


Alls it would take them to do is train some basic takedown defense? Have you ever wrestled? Didn't think so. Wrestling takes years to get good. Not months. Chuck lost to Rampage, but he also KO'ed Overeem and Mezger. Guess what, Chuck DID THAT **** in Pride and has 2 KO's for it. Know what **** your talking BEFORE you talk it bro.

And you knew that Chuck KO'ed Sobral. He caught him with a shin, thats right his SHIN in the face. Had him seeing stars. So why does Silva get away with just standup in Pride and don't give me that "But he's a BJJ Black Bett" crap. When he gets taken down, i.e. Henderson, Rampage, Arona, he does nothing from the bottom. So why does it work? Competition not to good?


This is fun. :D