View Full Version : May Madness - Middleweights


Brassangel
05-09-2006, 01:37 PM
For those who remember my March Madness thread courtesy of the Heavyweight Division, I am planning on doing one for the Middleweights as well. This will be a tournament of the traditional format, no best of 7. The one difference will be viewer participation. I want the decisions to be 100% up to the readers. Based on the votes, I may use my writing abilities to flesh out some fight details, but other than that, it's up to you.

First, let's compile a list of the top 32 (or 64) middleweights of all-time. Junior and Super Middles can be included. I imagine we'll see a couple of Sugar's, and the Marvellous One, but we'll proceed anyway. Post away!

Dempsey 1919
05-09-2006, 01:39 PM
For those who remember my March Madness thread courtesy of the Heavyweight Division, I am planning on doing one for the Middleweights as well. This will be a tournament of the traditional format, no best of 7. The one difference will be viewer participation. I want the decisions to be 100% up to the readers. Based on the votes, I may use my writing abilities to flesh out some fight details, but other than that, it's up to you.

First, let's compile a list of the top 32 (or 64) middleweights of all-time. Junior and Super Middles can be included. I imagine we'll see a couple of Sugar's, and the Marvellous One, but we'll proceed anyway. Post away!

are you trying to compete with my thread? :D

oldgringo
05-09-2006, 01:43 PM
Here's a quick list of 10 guys:

154
Mike McCallum
Terry Norris
Thomas Hearns
Felix Trinidad
Julio Cesar Vazquez

160
Marvin Hagler
Bernard Hopkins
Harry Greb
Mickey Walker
Carlos Monzon

RockyMarcianofan00
05-09-2006, 02:13 PM
Jake Lamatta

JuicyJuice
05-09-2006, 02:48 PM
Dick Tiger, Gene Fullmer, Mercel Ceden, Ray Robinson, Ray Leonard, Ayub Kalule, Herol Graham, Sumbu Kalambay, Michael Nunn, Nigel Benn, Gerald McClellan.

JuicyJuice
05-09-2006, 02:51 PM
James Toney, Roy Jones.

K-DOGG
05-09-2006, 02:56 PM
Suggested Participants:.....off the cuff; followed by a little help from Boxrec. The numbers are merely as soon as they came to mind....and I know I forgot somebody. While I'm not all that familiar with the middlweights as I am the heavyweights, I'll do my best to keep up and look forward to the inputs of the more learned posters.

Anyway...list:


1. Stanley Ketchel
2. Bob Fitzsimmons
3. Harry Greb
4. Mickey Walker
5. Tiger Flowers
6. Tony Zale
7. Rocky Graziano
8. Jake LaMotta
9. Marcel Cerdan
10. Ray Robinson
11. Gene Fulmer
12. Randy Turpin
13. Dick Tiger
14. Nino Benvenuti
15. Carlos Monzon
16. Marvin Hagler
17. Thomas Hearns
18. Roy Jones Jr.
19. Bernard Hopkins
20. Felix Trinidad
21. Chris Eubank
22. Nigel Benn
23. Terry Norris
24. Roberto Duran
25. Ray Leonard
26. Gerald McClellan
27. Julian Jackson
28. James Toney
29. Mike McCallum
30. Bennie Briscoe
31. Archie Moore
32. Emile Griffith
33. Joey Giardello
34. Rubin Carter
35. Freddie Steele
36. Tony Yarosz
37. Solly Krieger
38. Marcel Thil
39. Kid McCoy
40. Jack Dempsey..."The Nonpareil"
41. Fred Apostoli
42. Lou Broulliard
43. Michael Nunn
44. Iran Barkley
45. Vito Antuofermo
46. Vince Dundee
47. Gorilla Jones
48. George Chip
49. Billy Papke
50. Sumbu Kalambay
51. Reggie Johnson
52. Alan Minter
53. John Mugabi
54. Wlfred Benitez
55. George Cole

K-DOGG
05-09-2006, 03:26 PM
9 more to make it an even 64:

56. Benny Paret
57. Rodrigo Valdez
58. Gianfraco Rosi
59. Donald Curry
60. Michael Watson
61. Steve Collins
62. Carman Basilio

and some new(er) blood:

63. Winky Wright
64. Joe Calzaghe

cple
05-09-2006, 03:46 PM
Some additions to K-DOGG's list:

Charley Burley
Lloyd Marshall
Holman Williams
Les Darcy
Sam Langford - might be unfair since he'd probably wipe the floor with any middleweight in history.

Kid Achilles
05-09-2006, 03:47 PM
This is great! I look forward to this one and I'm glad you're not going to go the best of seven route.

Kid Achilles
05-09-2006, 03:48 PM
Is there a way to keep the votes secret? It would be cool not knowing who is going to win before the fight happens.

blockhead
05-09-2006, 03:53 PM
weird ass randy turpin, i am glad he got included, his style was so ****ing weird.

K-DOGG
05-09-2006, 03:58 PM
Some additions to K-DOGG's list:

Charley Burley
Lloyd Marshall
Holman Williams
Les Darcy
Sam Langford - might be unfair since he'd probably wipe the floor with any middleweight in history.

Damn. Can't believe I forgot Burley and Williams. I'll have to look the others up, truthfully. Thanks for the additions!

Oh, and Langford, I think would be a bit much. I almost added him; but didn't for the same reason you listed.

K-DOGG
05-09-2006, 03:59 PM
Is there a way to keep the votes secret? It would be cool not knowing who is going to win before the fight happens.

Ooo. Good suggestion. Have a vote on each fight for a certain period of time and then reveal the winner...with the reason.

Yogi
05-09-2006, 06:17 PM
I hope Langford is included.

Yogi
05-09-2006, 06:27 PM
I'd like to throw the names of Mike Gibbons, Tommy Ryan, Frank Klaus, Panama Joe Gans, and Jeff Smith into the mix if this thing is going 64 deep...I think they would all belong in that large of a field, for sure, and some of those I think belong in a 32 man field.

P.S. Why not stick to a straight middleweight tournament without the supers & juniors added (unless they fought at middleweight), because there's been more than enough talent at 160 to fill the field no matter the amount of inclusions?

oldgringo
05-09-2006, 06:53 PM
Guys...not to rock the boat because this isn't my thread or idea or anything, but...

don't you think we should have more of an equal mix of older and newer fighters? a lot of the names i've seen so far have been guys pre-1980's and it would be better to incorporate some of the newer posters by getting some more recent names in there...no??? i mean, we could include all kinds of good old fighters like billy papke, jack dillon, kid mckoy and ceferino garcia...i just dont think that'd be fair for everyone.

anyway, just a thought.

Brassangel
05-09-2006, 07:08 PM
All right, let's cut it to just the 160's then. That way we can keep it a little cleaner, and incorporate new and old. Soon we'll have a bracket.

Brassangel
05-10-2006, 01:37 PM
If you want to vote without anybody knowing so that the story can be surprising to everybody, you could PM me or something and I'll give you my e-mail address. No idiots who plan on spamming me, however. :rolleyes:

I want to include, regardless of weight:

Robinson
Leonard
Hagler
Duran
Hopkins
Jones, Jr.
Burley
Williams
Langford
LaMotta
Graziano
Trinidad...

...and a million more.

K-DOGG
05-10-2006, 02:02 PM
If you want to vote without anybody knowing so that the story can be surprising to everybody, you could PM me or something and I'll give you my e-mail address. No idiots who plan on spamming me, however. :rolleyes:

I want to include, regardless of weight:

Robinson
Leonard
Hagler
Duran
Hopkins
Jones, Jr.
Burley
Williams
Langford
LaMotta
Graziano
Trinidad...

...and a million more.

*whistles* Having Langford in is going to make this interesting as hell.

cple
05-10-2006, 04:44 PM
There are a LOT more deserving middleweights than Leonard, Duran, and Trinidad.

Brassangel
05-11-2006, 01:03 PM
I only named a few; there's still room for about 40 more.

Dempsey 1919
05-12-2006, 09:02 PM
so brassangel, when is it gonna get started?

Brassangel
05-13-2006, 12:50 PM
Given the low participation from the spectators (since I wanted this to be a viewer driven tournament), I can't say I am certain as to when it will get started. Hopefully soon.

K-DOGG
05-13-2006, 04:05 PM
Maybe some posters aren't as confident in their knowledge of middleweights as they are of the "glamor division". :rolleyes:



Ps.....That's a challenge boys. C'mon, let's do this thing!! Some of the best fighters who ever lived weighed around 160.

:cool:

Brassangel
05-13-2006, 04:38 PM
Let's do it; I'll even cut it to 32. Top 32 at 160 lbs.

Yogi
05-13-2006, 04:47 PM
Brass, are you looking for some ratings or something like that?

Yogi
05-13-2006, 05:07 PM
If so, here's a quick ranking off the top of my head;

1. Harry Greb
2. Sugar Ray Robinson
3. Carlos Monzon
4. Marvin Hagler
5. Stanley Ketchel
6. Bob Fitzsimmons
7. Mickey Walker
8. Charley Burley
9. Jake LaMotta
10. Sam Langford ***
11. Bernard Hopkins
12. Tony Zale
13. Tiger Flowers
14. Marcel Cerdan
15. Gene Fullmer
16. Freddie Steele
17. Dick Tiger
18. Kid McCoy
19. Holman Williams
20. Tommy Ryan
21. Roy Jones
22. Mike Gibbons
23. Non. Jack Dempsey
24. Billy Papke
25. Emile Griffith
26. Frank Klaus
27. Sugar Ray Leonard
28. Lloyd Marshall
29. Joey Giardello
30. Nino Benvenuti
31. Rodrigo Valdez
32. Rocky Graziano

*** tough to rank...down on the list on acomplishments at middleweight, but seeing as this is a tournament of mythical matchups, he's going to be very tough to beat.

K-DOGG
05-13-2006, 05:34 PM
If so, here's a quick ranking off the top of my head;

1. Harry Greb
2. Sugar Ray Robinson
3. Carlos Monzon
4. Marvin Hagler
5. Stanley Ketchel
6. Bob Fitzsimmons
7. Mickey Walker
8. Charley Burley
9. Jake LaMotta
10. Sam Langford ***
11. Bernard Hopkins
12. Tony Zale
13. Tiger Flowers
14. Marcel Cerdan
15. Gene Fullmer
16. Freddie Steele
17. Dick Tiger
18. Kid McCoy
19. Holman Williams
20. Tommy Ryan
21. Roy Jones
22. Mike Gibbons
23. Non. Jack Dempsey
24. Billy Papke
25. Emile Griffith
26. Frank Klaus
27. Sugar Ray Leonard
28. Lloyd Marshall
29. Joey Giardello
30. Nino Benvenuti
31. Rodrigo Valdez
32. Rocky Graziano

*** tough to rank...down on the list on acomplishments at middleweight, but seeing as this is a tournament of mythical matchups, he's going to be very tough to beat.

Damn. I was gonna donate my contributing order/ranking; but that's pretty solid....though, I would put Monzon at 1 and Greb at 4...few other differences of opinion; but nothing worth bickering about on this thread.

I'm pumped for this...hope it doesn't begin 'till Monday,though.

Yogi
05-13-2006, 05:46 PM
Damn. I was gonna donate my contributing order/ranking; but that's pretty solid....though, I would put Monzon at 1 and Greb at 4...few other differences of opinion; but nothing worth bickering about on this thread.

I'm pumped for this...hope it doesn't begin 'till Monday,though.

Yeah, there's probably plenty of room for differences of opinions on that ranking, because I literally came up with it in the time it took me to write out that post...I do sorta wished I could've taken it a little deeper, though, as I would've liked to have seen a couple of my old favourites gain participation in this, Bennie Briscoe & Vito Antuofermo, as well as some other guys like Panama Joe Gans, Ken Overlin, Ceferino Garcia, James Toney, Les Darcy, Carmen Basilio, etc.

I almost didn't remember Rodrigo Valdez, though, and had to edit it to include him (had Gans at 31, but took him out)...Another one of my favourites and I really do think he belongs somewhere on that list (probably a bit higher than the spot I gave him, actually).

P.S. Just for the sake of gaining a consensus, you should also come up with a ranking of who you think should be included.

K-DOGG
05-13-2006, 05:54 PM
Yeah, there's probably plenty of room for differences of opinions on that ranking, because I literally came up with it in the time it took me to write out that post...I do sorta wished I could've taken it a little deeper, though, as I would've liked to have seen a couple of my old favourites gain participation in this, Bennie Briscoe & Vito Antuofermo, as well as some other guys like Panama Joe Gans, Ken Overlin, Ceferino Garcia, James Toney, Les Darcy, Carmen Basilio, etc.

I almost didn't remember Rodrigo Valdez, though, and had to edit it to include him (had Gans at 31, but took him out)...Another one of my favourites and I really do think he belongs somewhere on that list (probably a bit higher than the spot I gave him, actually).


P.S. Just for the sake of gaining a consensus, you should also come up with a ranking of who you think should be included.

Oh, I did on page one; but they weren't ranked in any order other than when I thought of them....'course that was for a 64 list, not 32. Hmm. Give me a minute or two.

Brassangel
05-13-2006, 06:03 PM
These lists are pretty good. I will start compiling a bracket and we get this thing under way.

K-DOGG
05-13-2006, 06:35 PM
I think I have developed a migrane organizing #'s 15 through 32. :rolleyes:

Anyway...list:


1. Carlos Monzon
2. Ray Robinson
3. Marvin Hagler
4. Harry Greb
5. Stanley Ketchel
6. Micky Walker
7. Bob Fitzsimmons
8. Tony Zale
9. Jake LaMotta
10. Bernard Hopkins
11. Dick Tiger
12. Charley Burley
13. Roy Jones Jr.
14. Gene Fulmer
15 Joey Giardello
16. James Toney
17. Tiger Flowers
18. Marcel Cerdan
19. Freddie Steele
20. Nonpareil Jack Dempsey
21. Kid McCoy
22. Tony Yarosz
23. Nino Benvenuti
24. Solly Krieger
25. Archie Moore
26. Fred Apostoli
27. Frank Klaus
28. Rodrigo Valdez
29. Lou Broulliard
30. Bennie Briscoe
31. Vince Dundee
32. Gorilla Jones

Now, I will admit my doubt with a few of my own rankings, seeing as how the middles are not my area of expertise; but I am willing to learn. That's what it's all about, anyway.

K-DOGG
05-26-2006, 02:13 PM
Yo, Brass!!

Where's the playoffs, man?!

Frazier's 15th round
05-26-2006, 02:33 PM
Come on, chump. Get the tourney started.

Dempsey 1919
05-27-2006, 01:52 AM
Come on, chump. Get the tourney started.

He probably gave up on the idea.

Brassangel
05-30-2006, 05:09 PM
I apologize for the delay.

Since K-DOGG had an annurism compiling the list, I figured I'd pay him his credit and just apply it to my tournament bracket. Now, while the regions are labeled according to the cardinal directions, it in no way indicates the residence of each fighter. As I have stated before, this will be almost entirely up to you, the readers, to decide the outcome(s).

In the spirit of reality TV, I thought I would take your votes via PM to determine the winners, that way it wouldn't be spoiled for those who don't want to know right away. Feel free to discuss openly, and PM me your votes. I don't need too many details at this point, as there are too many fights to concern oneself with.

Vote for round 1 now!

WEST
1. Ray Robinson
8. Vince Dundee

4. Gene Fulmer
5. Tiger Flowers

3. Tony Zale
6. Solly Krieger

2. Bob Fitzsimmons
7. Nino Benvenuti

NORTH
1. Carlos Monzon
8. Gorilla Jones

4. Joey Giardello
5. Freddie Steele

3. Bernard Hopkins
6. Kid McCoy

2. Stanley Ketchel
7. Fred Apostoli

EAST
1. Marvin Hagler
8. Bennie Briscoe

4. James Toney
5. Jack Dempsey

3. Charley Burley
6. Tony Yarosz

2. Jake LaMotta
7. Frank Klaus

SOUTH
1. Harry Greb
8. Lou Broulliard

4. Dick Tiger
5. Archie Moore

3. Roy Jones Jr.
6. Marcel Cerdan

2. Micky Walker
7. Rodrigo Valdez

Dempsey 1919
05-31-2006, 01:31 AM
I apologize for the delay.

Since K-DOGG had an annurism compiling the list, I figured I'd pay him his credit and just apply it to my tournament bracket. Now, while the regions are labeled according to the cardinal directions, it in no way indicates the residence of each fighter. As I have stated before, this will be almost entirely up to you, the readers, to decide the outcome(s).

In the spirit of reality TV, I thought I would take your votes via PM to determine the winners, that way it wouldn't be spoiled for those who don't want to know right away. Feel free to discuss openly, and PM me your votes. I don't need too many details at this point, as there are too many fights to concern oneself with.

Vote for round 1 now!

WEST
1. Ray Robinson
8. Vince Dundee

4. Gene Fulmer
5. Tiger Flowers

3. Tony Zale
6. Solly Krieger

2. Bob Fitzsimmons
7. Nino Benvenuti

NORTH
1. Carlos Monzon
8. Gorilla Jones

4. Joey Giardello
5. Freddie Steele

3. Bernard Hopkins
6. Kid McCoy

2. Stanley Ketchel
7. Fred Apostoli

EAST
1. Marvin Hagler
8. Bennie Briscoe

4. James Toney
5. Jack Dempsey

3. Charley Burley
6. Tony Yarosz

2. Jake LaMotta
7. Frank Klaus

SOUTH
1. Harry Greb
8. Lou Broulliard

4. Dick Tiger
5. Archie Moore

3. Roy Jones Jr.
6. Marcel Cerdan

2. Micky Walker
7. Rodrigo Valdez

It's a different Jack Dempsey, right?

Southpaw Stinger
05-31-2006, 08:44 AM
It's a different Jack Dempsey, right?

The heavyweight Jack Dempsey that we all know copied his name from a middleweight boxer.

K-DOGG
05-31-2006, 12:01 PM
I apologize for the delay.

Since K-DOGG had an annurism compiling the list, I figured I'd pay him his credit and just apply it to my tournament bracket. Now, while the regions are labeled according to the cardinal directions, it in no way indicates the residence of each fighter. As I have stated before, this will be almost entirely up to you, the readers, to decide the outcome(s).

In the spirit of reality TV, I thought I would take your votes via PM to determine the winners, that way it wouldn't be spoiled for those who don't want to know right away. Feel free to discuss openly, and PM me your votes. I don't need too many details at this point, as there are too many fights to concern oneself with.

Vote for round 1 now!

WEST
1. Ray Robinson
8. Vince Dundee

4. Gene Fulmer
5. Tiger Flowers

3. Tony Zale
6. Solly Krieger

2. Bob Fitzsimmons
7. Nino Benvenuti

NORTH
1. Carlos Monzon
8. Gorilla Jones

4. Joey Giardello
5. Freddie Steele

3. Bernard Hopkins
6. Kid McCoy

2. Stanley Ketchel
7. Fred Apostoli

EAST
1. Marvin Hagler
8. Bennie Briscoe

4. James Toney
5. Jack Dempsey

3. Charley Burley
6. Tony Yarosz

2. Jake LaMotta
7. Frank Klaus

SOUTH
1. Harry Greb
8. Lou Broulliard

4. Dick Tiger
5. Archie Moore

3. Roy Jones Jr.
6. Marcel Cerdan

2. Micky Walker
7. Rodrigo Valdez


LOL!!!! I almost developed another one on some of these picks.


I'll PM the picks of round one to you. Might come back and post on a couple of them later. Some real interesting style match-ups in this first round.

Brassangel
05-31-2006, 01:10 PM
The matches are going smoothly. Plenty of exciting matchups here. So far, there are some clear cut winners, and there are some that I will have to weigh the balance on. But America will just have to wait to see the outcome. I'm calculating the totals as we speak.

K-DOGG
05-31-2006, 01:14 PM
The matches are going smoothly. Plenty of exciting matchups here. So far, there are some clear cut winners, and there are some that I will have to weigh the balance on. But America will just have to wait to see the outcome. I'm calculating the totals as we speak.

Nuthin' but confidence in you bro.

Of course, if I do hapen to disagree with the results, I feel obligated to explain. ;)

Yogi
05-31-2006, 01:37 PM
I see that Sam Langford has gotten the shaft yet again, as has Holman Williams and a couple of others...

Bah! :mad:

Yogi
05-31-2006, 02:26 PM
If I was a paying customer these are the first round fights that I'd most want to see if I was looking for some really good action fights;

West: Tony Zale vs. Solly Krieger

North: Stanley Ketchel vs. Fred Apostoli

East: Jake LaMotta vs. Frank Klaus

South: Mickey Walker vs. Rodrigo Valdez


The Zale/Krieger fight has the potential to be the very best action fight of the first round, as I could see it being somewhat similiar (but more bloody!) and a little bit longer than the Zale/Graziano brawls...I'd take Zale to bust Krieger up and stop him somewhere around the 7th or 8th round in a wild one.

K-DOGG
05-31-2006, 03:23 PM
If I was a paying customer these are the first round fights that I'd most want to see if I was looking for some really good action fights;

West: Tony Zale vs. Solly Krieger

North: Stanley Ketchel vs. Fred Apostoli

East: Jake LaMotta vs. Frank Klaus

South: Mickey Walker vs. Rodrigo Valdez


The Zale/Krieger fight has the potential to be the very best action fight of the first round, as I could see it being somewhat similiar (but more bloody!) and a little bit longer than the Zale/Graziano brawls...I'd take Zale to bust Krieger up and stop him somewhere around the 7th or 8th round in a wild one.

Completely agree with the sentiment on action fights...and, agree with your synopsis concerning Zale-Kreiger. I'm a big Tony Zale fan and feel he's one of the more underated middleweight champions who ever lived.

For my money, LaMotta-Klaus would be the way to go also. I even though Klaus was accustomed to warring for 20 rounds on occasion, I'd give the edge to LaMotta based on....his freakin' chin. Klaus had a good chin too; but I just see this battle of attrition going to Jake.

Another fight that really intrigues me from a style perspective is Cerdan-Jones Jr. At first, I was leaning towards Jones outpointing Cerdan over the course of the 12 or 15 rounds; but then I got to thinking about it. Cerdan was a better than a pretty solid puncher at 160 and even though Jones was stopped by a big Light-Heavyweight, the fact that he was stopped cold means that it could potentially happen against any fighter with some pop behind his shots. Alos, Cerdan was a pressure fighter who would be on top of Jones. I can see Jones outscoreing and possibly rocking Cerdan on occasion; but over the course of the fight, sooner or later I think Marcel would land the hammer....and Jones would go down and out.

I could be wrong, of coures; but that just feels like what would happen.

Yogi
05-31-2006, 05:02 PM
Another fight that really intrigues me from a style perspective is Cerdan-Jones Jr. At first, I was leaning towards Jones outpointing Cerdan over the course of the 12 or 15 rounds; but then I got to thinking about it. Cerdan was a better than a pretty solid puncher at 160 and even though Jones was stopped by a big Light-Heavyweight, the fact that he was stopped cold means that it could potentially happen against any fighter with some pop behind his shots. Alos, Cerdan was a pressure fighter who would be on top of Jones. I can see Jones outscoreing and possibly rocking Cerdan on occasion; but over the course of the fight, sooner or later I think Marcel would land the hammer....and Jones would go down and out.

I'm a fairly big fan of Marcel Cerdan, K-Dogg, so it's good to see you also have a high opinion of his abilities as a fighter. I really like what I see from the footage that's available of Cerdan, and I also generally rate him pretty highly in these head-to-head matchups at middleweight...

He looks to be slightly more of an inside fighter to me, as well, and while inside that range I'm very much impressed with his great workrate (great stamina), natural strength, chin/toughness, body punching, pretty powerful hooks & crosses, and he also throws with some pretty quick hands. But he's not only a straight forward type of guy from what I've seen, as I have also been quite impressed with his outside abilities too, especially on someone of his physical stature...Excellant at slipping the jab & straight rights from the outside (really good reflexes), shows a decent left jab himself, looks to be very intelligent, and what I especially like about him is his footwork. Great quickness on his feet with possibly the best balance I've ever seen on a fighter (no lie!), and I absolutely LOVE the way he uses his feet as he transitions from defense to offense. He'd be moving around while working the jab all the while slipping punches, and then all of a sudden...Snap! He's right on top of his man throwing those quick & powerful arms of his to both the head and body...

If Jones showed his left jab some more than he did then I'd give him a shot at Cerdan, but without that punch being used much by Roy...Ah, I'll take the much more experienced Cerdan to get inside often enough to rough Roy up in there with his workrate & strength, before stopping him some time in the later rounds.

A case of taking the 'fighter' over the 'flash'...

Marcel Cerdan TKO-12 Roy Jones Jr.

oldgringo
05-31-2006, 06:11 PM
how is bernard hopkins a 3 seed???

where is ken overlin?

what good is a making a bad briscoe/marvin hagler matchup in the first round when we pretty much already know what's going to happen?

Brassangel
06-01-2006, 09:39 AM
Well, after a few days of voting, the results are in. In order to save space and get back to the discussions, I will simply post the second round pairings.

WEST
1. Ray Robinson vs.
4. Gene Fulmer

3. Tony Zale vs.
2. Bob Fitzsimmons

NORTH
1. Carlos Monzon vs.
4. Joey Giardello

3. Bernard Hopkins vs.
2. Stanley Ketchel

EAST
1. Marvin Hagler vs.
5. Jack Dempsey

3. Charley Burley vs.
2. Jake LaMotta

SOUTH
1. Harry Greb vs.
5. Archie Moore

3. Roy Jones Jr. vs.
2. Micky Walker


There you have it folks. There weren't too many expected upsets, as you can see from the remaining rankings. There were some very close disputes, like Roy Jones Jr. vs. Marcel Cerdan; it came down to one or two votes. Also, in the WEST, Nino Benvenuti nearly upset Bob Fitzsimmons. It's time to place your votes for round 2. Remember, PM your decisions to me, and discuss the matches here. Stay tuned for the results of the sweet 16! :boxing:

Yogi
06-01-2006, 02:23 PM
It's a different Jack Dempsey, right?


Far out in the wilds of Oregon,
On a lonely mountainside,
Where Columbia's mighty waters
Roll down to the oceanside;
Where the giant fir and cedar
Are imaged in the wave,
O'ergrown with firs and lichens,
I found Jack Dempsey's grave.

O Fame, why sleeps thy favored son
In wilds, in woods, in weeds,
And shall he ever thus sleep on,
Interred his valiant deeds.
'Tis strange New York should thus forgot
It's "bravest of the brave"
And in the fields of Oregon,
Unmarked leave Dempsey's grave.


-M.J. McMahon

Yogi
06-01-2006, 02:39 PM
A couple/few fights that I probably would have voted the other way (Cerdan/Jones & Steele/Giardello...being two of them), but there's nothing too overly suprising about the results from the first round...

Hey Brass, out of curiousity and seeing as how I never sent you a PM with my picks...would a single other vote had made any difference in the outcome of the Steele/Giardello matchup?

K-DOGG
06-01-2006, 02:49 PM
Well, after a few days of voting, the results are in. In order to save space and get back to the discussions, I will simply post the second round pairings.

WEST
1. Ray Robinson vs.
4. Gene Fulmer

3. Tony Zale vs.
2. Bob Fitzsimmons

NORTH
1. Carlos Monzon vs.
4. Joey Giardello

3. Bernard Hopkins vs.
2. Stanley Ketchel

EAST
1. Marvin Hagler vs.
5. Jack Dempsey

3. Charley Burley vs.
2. Jake LaMotta

SOUTH
1. Harry Greb vs.
5. Archie Moore

3. Roy Jones Jr. vs.
2. Micky Walker


There you have it folks. There weren't too many expected upsets, as you can see from the remaining rankings. There were some very close disputes, like Roy Jones Jr. vs. Marcel Cerdan; it came down to one or two votes. Also, in the WEST, Nino Benvenuti nearly upset Bob Fitzsimmons. It's time to place your votes for round 2. Remember, PM your decisions to me, and discuss the matches here. Stay tuned for the results of the sweet 16! :boxing:


Another intriguings set of matches. Jones-Walker, I feel would probably have a similar tone to Jones-Cerdan; but The Toy Bulldog, I believe, had a little more power and aggressiveness....if that plays into the match in any way.

I smell a slight upset...though I wouldn't call it that with Burley and LaMotta. If Jake only beat Sugar Ray once in six fights...well.

Greb-Moore....windmill activity and elusivness vs a great tactician in his own right. Personally, I gott go with Greb; but it would be thrilling, IMO.

Hagler and the aformentioned Dempsey....I have to feel even though Jack fought and beat many men bigger than himself (he was actually more of a welterweight) that his old-old school style wouldn't help him against Hagler.

Hopkins & Ketchel....talk about offense vs defense with both being well schooled in the "darker" side of the sport. I'd be very surprised if this one didn't end in a DQ. Tempers would flare....and I'd favour Ketchel based on teh activity he'd shown in several of his bouts...when he wanted.

Zale and Fitz....as much as I love Tony Zale, I'd have to give Ruby Robert the edge here. Fitz was knocking out heavyweight with regularity with his freakish strength and Zale had been shown to be capable of being caught. Average chin + above average punch+ aggressive wariors who preferred to come forward= Fitz winning by kayo at some point....IMO.

Monzon-Giardello....Joey was slick; but I can't see him escaping Carlos for too long. Monzon was a huge middleweight with a very good straight right....the rest of his punches weren't bad either.


Robinson-Fulmer.....can't see this one being anything but entertaining; and presuming both are at their physical peaks...except Robinson, who would have to be at his best at middleweight, which would equal the St. Valentine's Day Massacre Robinson, IMHO.....Sugar Ray wins a decision in an action packed affair that would see momentum shift both ways.


Can't wait for the "official results".

Yogi
06-01-2006, 04:35 PM
I smell a slight upset...though I wouldn't call it that with Burley and LaMotta. If Jake only beat Sugar Ray once in six fights...well.

This Burley/LaMotta fight is the one that intrigues me the most out of this second round, K-Dogg, and I'm very much looking forward to how the voting turns out for it.

Personally, I think this fight will undoubtably go the full distance, and I think the odds of a difference of opinion regarding the decision is very likely with the judges split on what they like better...either LaMotta's better workrate & aggressiveness (which, given Burley's style, would be reduced to some extent), or Burley's superior ring generalship & clean/effective counterpunching...

I, myself, would lean towards Burley in this one at the end, as I could see him having great success in landing that straight & very accurate straight right hand of his over top of LaMotta's frequent left hooks, and I think Burley was plenty slick & smart enough to avoid a whole bunch of what LaMotta offers him from the offensive side...with Burley's subtle elusiveness, and very smart clinching/smothering tactics after he lands cleanly with the counters, it's going to be quite tough for LaMotta to land with any consistency or frequency on Burley with those left hooks of his, if you ask me...

Charley Burley W-15 Jake LaMotta


P.S. Have you seen Burley's only known fight that still exists, K-Dogg (versus Oakland Billy Smith)?

If not, let me know and I'll gladly upload it for you.

K-DOGG
06-01-2006, 04:47 PM
This Burley/LaMotta fight is the one that intrigues me the most out of this second round, K-Dogg, and I'm very much looking forward to how the voting turns out for it.

Personally, I think this fight will undoubtably go the full distance, and I think the odds of a difference of opinion regarding the decision is very likely with the judges split on what they like better...either LaMotta's better workrate & aggressiveness (which, given Burley's style, would be reduced to some extent), or Burley's superior ring generalship & clean/effective counterpunching...

I, myself, would lean towards Burley in this one at the end, as I could see him having great success in landing that straight & very accurate straight right hand of his over top of LaMotta's frequent left hooks, and I think Burley was plenty slick & smart enough to avoid a whole bunch of what LaMotta offers him from the offensive side...with Burley's subtle elusiveness, and very smart clinching/smothering tactics after he lands cleanly with the counters, it's going to be quite tough for LaMotta to land with any consistency or frequency on Burley with those left hooks of his, if you ask me...

Charley Burley W-15 Jake LaMotta


P.S. Have you seen Burley's only known fight that still exists, K-Dogg (versus Oakland Billy Smith)?

If not, let me know and I'll gladly upload it for you.


Yogi...I didn't know any footage of Burley existed at all! I'm working off of a work computer with no video access, unfortunately....security clearance isn't high enough or some such bunk. Thank you for the offer, though. I sincerely appreciate it. Hopefully, I'll have a home PC before the end of the year. Once again, thank you for the thought.

I've read much about Burley and completely agree with your synopses.

Yogi
06-01-2006, 05:02 PM
Yogi...I didn't know any footage of Burley existed at all! I'm working off of a work computer with no video access, unfortunately....security clearance isn't high enough or some such bunk. Thank you for the offer, though. I sincerely appreciate it. Hopefully, I'll have a home PC before the end of the year; but at the moment, it's just not possible. Once again, thank you for the thought.

I've read much about Burley and completely agree with your synopses.

Ah, that's too bad about you having no video access because I would've been more than happy to upload that for you.

And yeah, the fight with Smith is the only fight footage that I know of that still exists of Burley, and even though he may have been slipping somewhat by that point in time, it does give one a good glimpse of what his style was all about and how effective he was with it...

Nothing fancy at all, and the fight with Smith is no where near an exciting one. But it does show Burley's intelligent defensive skills (with his stance, footwork, subtle uppperbody/head movement & clinching in tight), counterpunching skills, and tremendous punching accuracy (especially that excellant right hand of his)...He just looks like a very tough guy for anybody to look good against, and may have been the most talented & successful "spoiler" type that I've ever seen.

K-DOGG
06-01-2006, 05:17 PM
Thank you for the thought just the same. I've got descriptions of Burley in action; but no matter how well somebody paints a picture with words, it's never quite the same as seeing for ones' self.

Yogi
06-01-2006, 07:35 PM
but no matter how well somebody paints a picture with words, it's never quite the same as seeing for ones' self.

Yeah, that is definately the truth and it does make predicting some of these matchups difficult to handicap...especially an all-time tournament like this one at middleweight, where there's either no footage available of the fighters involved (there's about 10 out of 32 that I haven't seen...although I've also read quite a bit about what those I haven't seen were said to have brought to the table) or it's footage of the fighters when they're not neccessarily at their very best...

It's unfortunate that the middleweight division is historically lacking in the amount of footage that's still available nowadays, and also a little bit suprising considering it's probably the second most prestigious division in the sport (for comparision sake, there's quite a bit more footage of the great lightweights available than there is of the middleweights).

Yogi
06-01-2006, 07:44 PM
P.S. Just browsing your selections for the second round matchups, K-Dogg, and it all looks good to me...So if Brass could add a "+1" to those picks, that would be cool.

Brassangel
06-02-2006, 09:18 AM
All right then, for every K-DOGG selection, I'll add one for Yogi.

Brassangel
06-02-2006, 09:31 AM
I guess I'm just a little disappointed that I received so many PM's and replies within the thread stating that people did want this tournament to happen. So, I decided to make it happen (with your help, of course), and I'm only getting 5-6 people submitting votes. Hmm...

K-DOGG
06-02-2006, 04:47 PM
I guess I'm just a little disappointed that I received so many PM's and replies within the thread stating that people did want this tournament to happen. So, I decided to make it happen (with your help, of course), and I'm only getting 5-6 people submitting votes. Hmm...

Brass, I would say that's due to one of two factors:

1.) Lack of confidence in their knowledge of middleweight greats....or just real lack of familiarity with many of these fighters. Most people usually specialize in the heavyweights and tend to forget about the other divisions. I readily admit I know more about the big boys than the middleweights; but I'm working on it.

2.) I know some people who just hate the whole mythical match-up concept....they don't like the speculation aspect.

K-DOGG
06-02-2006, 04:48 PM
Yeah, that is definately the truth and it does make predicting some of these matchups difficult to handicap...especially an all-time tournament like this one at middleweight, where there's either no footage available of the fighters involved (there's about 10 out of 32 that I haven't seen...although I've also read quite a bit about what those I haven't seen were said to have brought to the table) or it's footage of the fighters when they're not neccessarily at their very best...

It's unfortunate that the middleweight division is historically lacking in the amount of footage that's still available nowadays, and also a little bit suprising considering it's probably the second most prestigious division in the sport (for comparision sake, there's quite a bit more footage of the great lightweights available than there is of the middleweights).


Hmmm. That is surprising. I would have thought the footage would correspond to popularity of the different classes. More lightweight than middleweight. That is odd.

Brassangel
06-02-2006, 11:34 PM
The votes have been collected and tallied for round 2. Advancing to the Elite 8 are the following:

WEST Finals
1. Ray Robinson vs.
2. Bob Fitzsimmons

NORTH Finals
1. Carlos Monzon vs.
2. Stanley Ketchel

EAST Finals
1. Marvin Hagler vs.
3. Charley Burley

SOUTH Finals
1. Harry Greb vs.
2. Micky Walker

As you can see, all #1 fighters advanced, and three of four #2 seats advanced to the quarterfinals. Micky Walker was able to puff up Roy Jones pretty severely, and Burley KO'd the normally iron-chinned LaMotta. Hagler was Marvellous as usual, while Ketchel and Hopkins went into the late rounds in a chess match. Ray Robinson hasn't lost a round of any fight yet, and Fitzsimmons was able to outlast Tony Zale.

As usual, send your votes for the Elite 8 to my PM, and stay tuned for the Final Four!

K-DOGG
06-03-2006, 04:56 PM
The votes have been collected and tallied for round 2. Advancing to the Elite 8 are the following:

WEST Finals
1. Ray Robinson vs.
2. Bob Fitzsimmons

NORTH Finals
1. Carlos Monzon vs.
2. Stanley Ketchel

EAST Finals
1. Marvin Hagler vs.
3. Charley Burley

SOUTH Finals
1. Harry Greb vs.
2. Micky Walker

As you can see, all #1 fighters advanced, and three of four #2 seats advanced to the quarterfinals. Micky Walker was able to puff up Roy Jones pretty severely, and Burley KO'd the normally iron-chinned LaMotta. Hagler was Marvellous as usual, while Ketchel and Hopkins went into the late rounds in a chess match. Ray Robinson hasn't lost a round of any fight yet, and Fitzsimmons was able to outlast Tony Zale.

As usual, send your votes for the Elite 8 to my PM, and stay tuned for the Final Four!

Damn, this is a hard round for pix.

West

Got to go with Robinson in this one by a late round TKO on cuts. I think Ray's just too fast and too accurate for Fitz.

North

Very hard pick here. Part of me thinks Monzon's just too big and strong for Stanley; but Ketchel was one of the toughest S.O.B.'s ever and could crowd when he wanted, which might give Monzon some trouble; but, in the end, I think Carlos wins a decision....it's gonna be close, either way, IMO.

East

Another tough call; but I'm going to side with Burley based on the styles of this match-up. Charley reportedly had a great right hand and was a fabulous technician...both of which would give the southpaw Hagler fits. Burley by close decsion

South

A classic encounter redone....I'm goin' with Greb this time

Yogi
06-03-2006, 08:20 PM
My picks;

Sugar Ray Robinson W-15 Bob Fitzsimmons

Tough fight to handicap because I've only seen about three or four minutes of Fitz on film, but I think I have to favour Robinson in a mostly tactical battle fought from long range...Robinson's quicker hands & better punchrate probably being the difference and I think he could probably bloody Fitz up some around the mouth and nose area with the jab & right hands from out there. Wouldn't suprise me though if Fitz landed a long range right hand or two on Robinson that resulted in Sugar Ray going down for a spell.

Carlos Monzon W-15 Stanley Ketchel

I have to go with Monzon to win a clear decision on this one just because I think he could nuetralize Ketchel's inside game in the clinch (Monzon would probably be outmuscled and pushed around some in there, but I've never seen him take much punishment while there and was usually quite successful at nuetralizing his opponents' arms inside), as well as his chin & defensive/radar instincts nuetralizing much of Ketchel's power punches when coming inside. Don't see a pretty fight happening, but I think Monzon scores enough often with his ever so accurate jabs & straight right hands at distance to where he wins a pretty clear decision at the end of the night.

Harry Greb TKO-14 Mickey Walker

Walker fought Greb very tough according to the reports, but Greb was said to have cut the deficit Walker built over the first half of the fight, and basically took over the fight in the late goings...Greb was said to have been a couple/few years past his best in that fight with Walker, who was prime, and if Walker was "all but out on his feet" in the 14th round against a past it Harry Greb in their actual meeting, I like an earlier version of Greb to finish his rival late in the fight.


Have to abstain from the Hagler/Burley matchup for now, because that one is a toughie to call. On one hand I can see Burley having the same success that Duran did in landing the counter right hands against Hagler in a pretty tactical battle. But...ah, **** it, I'll say that Burley takes a close one against an opponent who much preferred his opponent come after him.

Charley Burley W-15 Marvin Hagler

Brassangel
06-04-2006, 10:49 PM
The Final Four has arrived in rather lackluster fashion. While I have enjoyed discussing and reading about the variating styles of these great middleweights, as well as witnessing some voting upsets over fighters like Roy Jones Jr., and Marvin Hagler, there have been far fewer participants than I would have hoped. Even so, here are the final four fighters.

Ray Robinson vs. Carlos Monzon

"Sugar" Ray Robinson, considered by many to be the best pound-for-pound fighter in history. Pure boxing form, good defense, speed, power, and endurance in a complete package. Carlos Monzon was an accurate puncher, with a solid jab, a strong counterpunch, and good interior defense.

Harry Greb vs. Charley Burley
I thoroughly expected to see "Marvellous" Marvin in this position, but the voters agreed that Burley's counter-right hand would edge out the decision against one of the sport's greatest. Harry Greb was able to overcome the slight disadvantages he suffered in his first meeting with Mickey Walker, thanks to a fresher set of legs and a couple of years off of the aging block.

The semifinals are loaded with four incredible fighters that I would pay a truck load to see. Who will survive this marathon of skill, wits, and stamina to meet an even greater opponent waiting in the finals? Vote now!

K-DOGG
06-05-2006, 04:29 PM
Carlos Monzon vs. Sugar Ray Robinson

Talk about a difficult tactical match-up. One thing I couldn't help but notice about Monzon in the footage I've seen is not only is he very precise with his punches, he appears to be slower than the average middleweight....this would not help him against the lightning fast Robinson, unless his timing was so accurate that he could actually time the small openings in Ray's defense before they vanished. Personally, I think he would be successful on occasion; but not enough to win the fight. The main problem Carlos would present for Robinson, IMO, would be the height and reach advantage, in addition to his timing and right hand power; but Ray had a great chin as well and was no slouch in the timing department. In the end, I see Robinson winning a tough, tactical UD.


More later.

K-DOGG
06-05-2006, 04:54 PM
Charley Burley vs. Harry Greb

Irony of ironies, there is no footage of Greb and only one surviving film of Burley to my knowledge. How do you pick the winner of this one? Talk about guess work.

Well, from what I've read of both, this would be an extremely intriguing affair with the stylistic Burley against the aggressive ghost Greb. Though I can't say for sure, instinct tells me that Greb would have the faster hands. Greb was ultra aggressive and a master of the darker side of the sport as well as tough as nails. Burley, on the other hand, was the master tactitician with good right hand power. Greb overwhelmed with volume and accuracey, while not possessing a killer wallop. Would Burley be slick enough to outslick the multi-active Greb down the stretch? I don't think so.

True, superb boxer Gene Tunney beat Greb; but Tunney was a light-heavyweight...and more or less used rough-house tactics in the two fights he won against Harry.....and, it should be noted that Greb is the onlly loss on the Former Heavyweight Champion's resume....and that is noteworthy.

Final Prediction: Greb W15 or 12 over Burley.

Brassangel
06-05-2006, 06:06 PM
This is it. The final matchup in a grueling, 32-man Middleweight tournament.

Ray Robinson vs. Harry Greb

Ray Robinson has probably been a favorite since early in the tournament, while Greb pulled off a few surprise wins in impressive fashion. The three people viewing this thread had better stay tuned for the finale. Submit your votes via PM to me, Brassangel, and await the outcome!

SABBATH
06-05-2006, 06:08 PM
Carlos Monzon vs. Sugar Ray Robinson

Talk about a difficult tactical match-up. One thing I couldn't help but notice about Monzon in the footage I've seen is not only is he very precise with his punches, he appears to be slower than the average middleweight....this would not help him against the lightning fast Robinson, unless his timing was so accurate that he could actually time the small openings in Ray's defense before they vanished. Personally, I think he would be successful on occasion; but not enough to win the fight. The main problem Carlos would present for Robinson, IMO, would be the height and reach advantage, in addition to his timing and right hand power; but Ray had a great chin as well and was no slouch in the timing department. In the end, I see Robinson winning a tough, tactical UD.
More later.I read that Sugar's management ideally liked Ray to fight fighters around 5'8 in height, believing that taller fighters would pose a more difficult fight for Robinson's style. Having said that, Robinson looked very good against Joey Maxim but if you are to believe Doc Kearns, Maxim only bided his time and waited for Ray to wilt in the heat.

Ray was at his best as a welterweight and I see Monzon's height, reach, power and durability presenting problems but Ray is P4P the King and would overcome these factors for a close very difficult fight. In a series though I could definitely see Monzon beating Robinson.

K-DOGG
06-05-2006, 09:16 PM
I have been spending the last couple of hours going over Robinson-Greb in my mind....it's killing me; and here' why:

Greb was in his prime at middleweight, Robinson wasn't. Robinson at 160 had trouble with Gene Fulmer and Carmen Basilio, who were both pressure fighters, as was Greb; and Fulmer was awkward...as Greb could be considered. True, Robison was well past his best when he met both men; but he was only one fight (title fight, that is)removed from winning the title the first time when he lost it to Turpin in his very first defense, who is also awkward in his own way, so, at 160, Robinson was beatable.

Greb, on the other hand, at Middleweight, was at his physical peak. I'd earlier said the Greb fought Tunney three times...I was incorrect, it was four. Apologies for my indiscrepancy. However, of the four fights, several have argued that Greb won 2...one was an official win, the other was an official loss, where a few thought Greb got robbed. Either way...this is my point; Greb was at his actual best at middleweight, Robinson wasn't. (that's right, you can feel it coming...I'll tie my own blindfold and light my own last cigarette.)

Robinson at his best at Middlweight vs Greb at his best at Middleweight....


Result: Greb UD over Robinson :eek:


BANG!!! :crucified

Yogi
06-05-2006, 11:20 PM
Whoa...the finalists have been decided already?

Yogi
06-06-2006, 12:46 AM
Just uploaded a Carlos Monzon fight for anybody interested...It's very nearly the full fight from his rematch with Griffith and be aware that it's not exactly his best performance (one of his least impressive actually...fights against Benvenuti, Briscoe II, and Napoles probably being the best of what I've seen from him), but it'll at least give you a look at what Monzon brought to the table if you haven't seen him;

http://www.yousendit.com/transfer.php?action=download&ufid=E9C4F4F0365750FC

Brassangel
06-06-2006, 10:55 AM
Ray Robinson vs. Harry Greb

With the current voting count as it stands, it's a draw. I myself have yet to decide which way I'm swinging, as several people have made great arguments one way or the other. It's easy to go with Robinson, simply because he was the king. It's also easy to see how it could be a difficult contest for him going against Greb at 160. This fight could end in a draw, which would disappoint some, excite others, but be talked about by all. I will need more input before I can finalize my decision here. So Yogi, the champion has not yet been decided.

Yogi
06-06-2006, 12:05 PM
So Yogi, the champion has not yet been decided.

I was meaning the Monzon/Robinson matchup in the semis, Brass, as I was thinking about that one for some time yesterday trying to visualize how it would play out (even watching some middleweight fights from both of them), and never really got the opportunity to weigh in on it.

Brassangel
06-07-2006, 01:15 AM
Well, this is a changeable competition, so feel free to voice your thoughts.

hellfire508
06-07-2006, 08:10 AM
The votes have been collected and tallied for round 2. Advancing to the Elite 8 are the following:

WEST Finals
1. Ray Robinson vs.
2. Bob Fitzsimmons

NORTH Finals
1. Carlos Monzon vs.
2. Stanley Ketchel

EAST Finals
1. Marvin Hagler vs.
3. Charley Burley

SOUTH Finals
1. Harry Greb vs.
2. Micky Walker


I haven't seen this thread. I wish I had read it earlier.

1. Robinson TKO 11 Fitz.
2. Monzon UD Ketchel (Monzon's chin holds up against the monster puncher)
3. Hagler UD Burley
4. Greb UD Walker

Dunno about the last one, obviously no footage of Greb.

Brassangel
06-07-2006, 10:53 AM
Well, Hellfire, PM me your decision. The final is:

Ray Robinson vs. Harry Greb

I'll keep taking votes to make sure on this one. It's been a dead-even split thus far, and I don't want to be the deciding factor. That's like a butterfly thread where I decide the winner.

Brassangel
06-10-2006, 12:21 AM
The votes came in for the final between Robinson and Greb. The majority have agreed that Ray Robinson is the king of the ring, but even his ability, skill, and notorioty for overcoming any challenge wouldn't be enough to emerge victorious against the larger Greb. That's the tale of this tape:

BoxingScene's Middleweight Champion of the World is Harry Greb!

Thanks to all for participating by submitting your votes. It's only a shame that not more of the "gurus" here took part in a wonderful division of the sport. Feel free to discuss, or even write a fantasy fight. I may soon do another heavyweight tournament with the pairings mixed up to make things more difficult for Muhammad Ali, the recent champion of my thread (and soon to be champion of butterfly's thread). Au revoir!

Southpaw Stinger
06-10-2006, 05:51 AM
Congrats to Mr Greb!