View Full Version : Jeffries vs Foreman


K-DOGG
04-29-2006, 03:09 PM
Looking for Thoughts here. Big George and Big Jeff are two of, if not THEE two strongest heavyweight Champions to have ever lived and both had great chins...Jeff with the better stamina, supposedly.

Who wins in a 15 round clash?


If someone else has already done this....sorry.

Southpaw Stinger
04-29-2006, 03:15 PM
I'd give it to Foreman.

THE REAL NINJA
04-29-2006, 03:27 PM
With only 21 fights and lack of opponents it's hard to judge Jeff . What would he have been if he was fighting Sam Langford, Harry Wills, Joe Jeannette, i know they all came a little after but you know what i'm saying. I will have to go with Foreman

K-DOGG
04-29-2006, 03:29 PM
Well shoot. I'll go ahead and put my synopsis down.

Personally, surprisingly, I'd favour big Jeff. My main reason being the stamina issue and he was a better technical boxer from all accounts. He started off sparring with Jim Corbett, who was a fantastic technician and picked up some tricks. Now, while not master boxer, he seems to have been more polished than Foreman. Also, he had a good chin, and as mentioned before, good stamina as evidencenced by he 20 round war with Tom Sharkey under the searing heat of artificial lighting at Coney Island.

Geroge, in his prime, went the 10 round distance against Gregorio Peralta; but Peralta was primarily a light-heavyeight who had moved up for a pay day. George dominated many of his fights through sheer physical strengh; he would not have this advantage over Jeffries. He wouldn't be able to push Jeff off and might be pushed back himself, which could throw him off his game.

Unlike Foreman, Jim was not a fast starter most the time and would wait for the right moment to lower the boom. Givin George's average defense and wide-open causeways due to his looping and winging punches, all hell might break loose pretty early; but, ultimately I see Jeffries winning by an 11th round stoppage after a steady pouding by both men, George would be more likely to wear out. It could end earlier; but I give George credit for being tough as nails himself...and Jeffries wasn't exactly a barnstormer.

LondonRingRules
04-29-2006, 03:50 PM
Well shoot. I'll go ahead and put my synopsis down.

Personally, surprisingly, I'd favour big Jeff. My main reason being the stamina issue and he was a better technical boxer from all accounts. He started off sparring with Jim Corbett, who was a fantastic technician and picked up some tricks. Now, while not master boxer, he seems to have been more polished than Foreman. Also, he had a good chin, and as mentioned before, good stamina as evidencenced by he 20 round war with Tom Sharkey under the searing heat of artificial lighting at Coney Island.

Geroge, in his prime, went the 10 round distance against Gregorio Peralta; but Peralta was primarily a light-heavyeight who had moved up for a pay day. George dominated many of his fights through sheer physical strengh; he would not have this advantage over Jeffries. He wouldn't be able to push Jeff off and might be pushed back himself, which could throw him off his game.

Unlike Foreman, Jim was not a fast starter most the time and would wait for the right moment to lower the boom. Givin George's average defense and wide-open causeways due to his looping and winging punches, all hell might break loose pretty early; but, ultimately I see Jeffries winning by an 11th round stoppage after a steady pouding by both men, George would be more likely to wear out. It could end earlier; but I give George credit for being tough as nails himself...and Jeffries wasn't exactly a barnstormer.
** Put George in those little 4 oz gloves and you'd have murder on your hands.

Don't kid yourself. Jeff was a major natural talent and took on all the black and white contenders of his day from his first day at pro, but he had a very primative style that don't tranlate into the modern era. He was beat up by Corbett and Fitz in their first fights before scoring a late KO.

Peralta was a very underrated, very crafty fighter. 99-9-9 and was tough on heavy contenders like Lyle even in his last fights. I love Jeff who is a very underrated fighter, but stylistically, he'd be whacked out by Foreman in 4 rounds. It'd be a great brawl while it lasted as Jeff would give it his all, but he just never showed he could handle a really big guy and Foreman always blasted out the big guys.

K-DOGG
04-29-2006, 03:56 PM
4 ROUNDS??

Can't see it. I'm not saying there's no way for George to win; but that I can't see.

THE REAL NINJA
04-29-2006, 04:02 PM
thats true i take back what i said about lack of ** Put George in those little 4 oz gloves and you'd have murder on your hands.

Don't kid yourself. Jeff was a major natural talent and took on all the black and white contenders of his day from his first day at pro, but he had a very primative style that don't tranlate into the modern era. He was beat up by Corbett and Fitz in their first fights before scoring a late KO.

Peralta was a very underrated, very crafty fighter. 99-9-9 and was tough on heavy contenders like Lyle even in his last fights. I love Jeff who is a very underrated fighter, but stylistically, he'd be whacked out by Foreman in 4 rounds. It'd be a great brawl while it lasted as Jeff would give it his all, but he just never showed he could handle a really big guy and Foreman always blasted out the big guys.
thats true i take back what i said about lack of opponents .But how long would Jeff last with Ali, Frazier, Norton and Holyfield, you just can't compare the two with the time difference in a fair un judgemental way

LondonRingRules
04-29-2006, 04:18 PM
thats true i take back what i said about lack of
thats true i take back what i said about lack of opponents .But how long would Jeff last with Ali, Frazier, Norton and Holyfield, you just can't compare the two with the time difference in a fair un judgemental way
** Under Jeff's rules, Ali would have a tough time because of the little gloves. Ali had fragile hands and they wouldn't give Ali a phoney TKO like he got sometimes. I'd favor Jeff.

Frazier is a managable size to handle, but again, in 4 oz gloves and that trip-hammer left hook, I'd favor Frazier, but anything over 20 goes to Jeff.

Norton would outbox him fairly easily and was strong enough to deal with the clinches. Again, anything over 20 goes to Jeff.

Holy at his best could outbox Jeff, but often Holy had stamina problems, probably as a result of poor steroid use, and Jeff would eat him up anything over 12 rds.

As a modern fighter, Jeff would have to be retrained to beat the best, but under his rules, it takes a big strong slugger like Foreman or puncher/boxer like Norton to beat him.

Frazier's 15th round
04-29-2006, 04:21 PM
Foreman would punch himself out by round 6, and Jeffries would toy with him before knocking him out in about Round 13.

K-DOGG
04-29-2006, 04:27 PM
** Under Jeff's rules, Ali would have a tough time because of the little gloves. Ali had fragile hands and they wouldn't give Ali a phoney TKO like he got sometimes. I'd favor Jeff.

Frazier is a managable size to handle, but again, in 4 oz gloves and that trip-hammer left hook, I'd favor Frazier, but anything over 20 goes to Jeff.

Norton would outbox him fairly easily and was strong enough to deal with the clinches. Again, anything over 20 goes to Jeff.

Holy at his best could outbox Jeff, but often Holy had stamina problems, probably as a result of poor steroid use, and Jeff would eat him up anything over 12 rds.

As a modern fighter, Jeff would have to be retrained to beat the best, but under his rules, it takes a big strong slugger like Foreman or puncher/boxer like Norton to beat him.

Ali didn't have fragile hands until after the forced exile. I would definetly favour him to outpoint or TKO Jeff late with little gloves.

Frazier's a toss up. Given both were slow starters and Frazier picked up speed as the fight goest on, I'd almost favour Frazier for a late round stoppage; but, truthfully, this one could go either way because Jeff presents a similar picture to Frazier that Foreman did...the difference being in who starts faster. Got to go with Joe.

With Norton...definetily have to go with Jeff. Norton froze like a deer in headlights anytime he faced a true puncher. Jeff would stop him around the 4th or 5th.

Holyfield would beat Jeff over the 15 round course. Holy was too active and too tough, not to mention faster and a superiour counterpuncher with a great chin. Holy by UD....maybe later round TKO from bustin' Jeff up.

Hous
04-29-2006, 05:17 PM
This may be a biased view but I would have to go with Foreman. I say biased because like everyone else here i have never seen Jefferies fight. He lost to Jack Johnson granted Johnson was in his prime and Jefferies was in anything but his prime. I woul still go with Foreman.

Foreman Vs. Marciano?

Marciano. Marciano does well against power hitters and is one of the most powerful ever himself. Marciano would take Foremans hits and deliever his own, then in later round Marciano would dominate. Marciano stanima is much better.

K-DOGG
04-29-2006, 05:21 PM
This may be a biased view but I would have to go with Foreman. I say biased because like everyone else here i have never seen Jefferies fight. He lost to Jack Johnson granted Johnson was in his prime and Jefferies was in anything but his prime. I woul still go with Foreman.

Foreman Vs. Marciano?

Marciano. Marciano does well against power hitters and is one of the most powerful ever himself. Marciano would take Foremans hits and deliever his own, then in later round Marciano would dominate. Marciano stanima is much better.

Interesting take...I'd have to definetly disagree with the Marciano-Foreman prognosis, though. I see that as alost a replica of Foreman-Frazeir I. Mariano at 5'10" and 185 Lbs against Foreman's 6'3" 220 Lbs with those upercuts...

Well, like I said, it's an interesting take.

Southpaw Stinger
04-29-2006, 07:24 PM
Interesting take...I'd have to definetly disagree with the Marciano-Foreman prognosis, though. I see that as alost a replica of Foreman-Frazeir I. Mariano at 5'10" and 185 Lbs against Foreman's 6'3" 220 Lbs with those upercuts...

Indeed, and Marciano a swarmer fighting Foreman a slugger - suicide for the rock.

sleazyfellow
04-29-2006, 07:28 PM
foreman easily against jeffries...if jack johnson knocked jeffries out so easily imagine what sumone with foremans powa would do? prolly knock him thru the ropes...and against marciano? prolly bounce him up n down off the mat worse than frazier was...

RockyMarcianofan00
04-29-2006, 07:33 PM
Foreman + 4oz gloves + basically any opponent = death in under 5 rounds

all he has to do is hit somebody hard with his fist and death

granted Jefferies is a good fighter IMO

M26
04-30-2006, 06:43 AM
I don't know much about James Jeffries, other than that he is supposed to have been a tough sob. If he really was that strong, powerful and tough, then he would present George Foreman with more than a decent challenge.

I will still favor Foreman though. His modern day fighting style, combined with his massive strenght and punching power, gives him the edge by midround tko.

George Foreman by tko7

tommyhearns804
04-30-2006, 09:03 AM
K-Dogg you don't see Foreman winning because you have no clue to what you are talking about.Jack Johnson manhandled Jeffries so why in the world would you say something as stupid as Foreman couldn't?Foreman was rarely hit in his prime so how is defense poor?And as someone else said the gloves were only 4 ounces back then.If Johnson a 190 pounder who wasn't known for having a good chin or a really big heavyweight punch could blast him out then Foreman would do it even quicker.
People assume fighters from that era had good stamina because they went more rounds right?But they only threw one punch at a time.Bacially punch then hold punch and hold.None of this crap would of worked against fighters from Dempsey to today.
Foreman or any other decent heavyweight would murder Jeffries.
Foreman in one round.

hemichromis
04-30-2006, 10:45 AM
its hard to judge jeffries because of the lack of footage

there is no way marciano would defeat a prime foreman it would be foreman-frazier all over again

Pugnacious_Z
04-30-2006, 11:06 AM
ill have to go with tommyhearns on this one

K-DOGG
04-30-2006, 11:11 AM
K-Dogg you don't see Foreman winning because you have no clue to what you are talking about.Jack Johnson manhandled Jeffries so why in the world would you say something as stupid as Foreman couldn't?Foreman was rarely hit in his prime so how is defense poor?And as someone else said the gloves were only 4 ounces back then.If Johnson a 190 pounder who wasn't known for having a good chin or a really big heavyweight punch could blast him out then Foreman would do it even quicker.
People assume fighters from that era had good stamina because they went more rounds right?But they only threw one punch at a time.Bacially punch then hold punch and hold.None of this crap would of worked against fighters from Dempsey to today.
Foreman or any other decent heavyweight would murder Jeffries.
Foreman in one round.

Are you serious? Have you done no research at all?

First of all, I can't believe you're using the Jeffries that fought Johnson as an example. That Jeffries was 35 years old, had been in retirement for 5 years, and had ballooned up to 300 Lbs in the interim...and lost all that weight in a matter of months before fighting Johnson, who was very close to in his prime. Johnson beat up on an old man, end of story.

Secondly, Johnson did have a decent set of whiskers...don't know where you get that he didn't; and was incredibly strong on the inside...and it still took him 15 rounds to knock out that old man.

Another thing....that whole myth about "those older fighters" throwing one punch at a time all the time is ridiculously inaccurate. Don't believe me? Find some footage of the first Gans-Nelson fight or read some newspaper accounts of Stanly Ketchel's wars..I recommend old Police Gazette coverage; or find the footage of Jeffries-Sharkey II.

I don't mind a difference of opinion; but don't insult my intelligence with the kind of uneducated ramblings you just printed.

Yaman
04-30-2006, 12:20 PM
Yeah, people always use the worst version of Jeffries, wich was the the one who fought Johnson. I guess that shows you how smart people are :rolleyes:

Kid Achilles
04-30-2006, 03:47 PM
It's too bad this fight could never happen because I think Jeffries would surprise you all. UNder 1970's rules Foreman-Jeffries might look like Foreman-Chuvalo if Chuvalo had more power with both hands. However, those tiny gloves are going to favor Jeffries more than Foreman, and all that wrestling is going to favor the better conditioned man with more endurance, Jeffries.

Foreman never fought with such small gloves so we have no idea if his hands could hold up to the abuse they'd take while wearing them. Jeffries fought his whole life wearing them and durability of the hand and fist was a more important characteristic in those days. Boxers actually had methods of toughening their hands up, and those smaller gloves pretty much weeded out the guys with brittle hands.

For all we know, Foreman shatters his hands in a few rounds pounding Jeffrie's concrete filled skull and is brutally stopped or knocked out.

In modern rules I'll go with Foreman in a tough, tough fight, but take this fight back to the early 1900's and I'm with Jim all the way.

RockyMarcianofan00
04-30-2006, 04:05 PM
It's too bad this fight could never happen because I think Jeffries would surprise you all. UNder 1970's rules Foreman-Jeffries might look like Foreman-Chuvalo if Chuvalo had more power with both hands. However, those tiny gloves are going to favor Jeffries more than Foreman, and all that wrestling is going to favor the better conditioned man with more endurance, Jeffries.

Foreman never fought with such small gloves so we have no idea if his hands could hold up to the abuse they'd take while wearing them. Jeffries fought his whole life wearing them and durability of the hand and fist was a more important characteristic in those days. Boxers actually had methods of toughening their hands up, and those smaller gloves pretty much weeded out the guys with brittle hands.

For all we know, Foreman shatters his hands in a few rounds pounding Jeffrie's concrete filled skull and is brutally stopped or knocked out.

In modern rules I'll go with Foreman in a tough, tough fight, but take this fight back to the early 1900's and I'm with Jim all the way.

ya know whats funny people don't think of that

people never think of a punchers power working against him. This is definitely one of the most plausible things that could happen

thanks for thinking outside the box

I don't know who to give it too because Jefferies gives up alittle power to foreman for more boxing skill so it really could go either way....but foreman would still get a nod from me

K-DOGG
04-30-2006, 04:18 PM
I know I'm in the minority; but I just don't feel Foreman had an advantage on Jeffries skill-wise. Foreman, in his prime, was the epitome of a crude but powerful slugger. Jeffries, from the footage I've seen, was no wiz; but he had skill. Now,if you take into account the skill that Foreman showed in his second career then, yes...he would either be on par or even have the advantage; but young George..I just don't see it. He was just so damn powerful that he steamrolled guys.

Now, granted, he did have great skill in cutting off the ring...as Ali himself has attested to; but cutting off the ring would not be necessary against Jeffries.

Foreman had a good jab; but it was sporadic and he much more preferred to get a guy out of there, which could work against him against Jeffries, who was incredibly durable and had a great chin.

Well, anyway, that's how I see it.

Yaman
04-30-2006, 04:56 PM
It's too bad this fight could never happen because I think Jeffries would surprise you all. UNder 1970's rules Foreman-Jeffries might look like Foreman-Chuvalo if Chuvalo had more power with both hands. However, those tiny gloves are going to favor Jeffries more than Foreman, and all that wrestling is going to favor the better conditioned man with more endurance, Jeffries.

Foreman never fought with such small gloves so we have no idea if his hands could hold up to the abuse they'd take while wearing them. Jeffries fought his whole life wearing them and durability of the hand and fist was a more important characteristic in those days. Boxers actually had methods of toughening their hands up, and those smaller gloves pretty much weeded out the guys with brittle hands.

For all we know, Foreman shatters his hands in a few rounds pounding Jeffrie's concrete filled skull and is brutally stopped or knocked out.

In modern rules I'll go with Foreman in a tough, tough fight, but take this fight back to the early 1900's and I'm with Jim all the way.


Jeffries is overrated and you can't compare those fighters to the modern heavyweights. I guess you can since he's white.

Foreman TKO in 5.

Southpaw Stinger
04-30-2006, 06:22 PM
Foreman TKO in 5.

I pretty much a agree with that.

oldgringo
04-30-2006, 06:38 PM
Yep...can't imagine Jeffries beating the killer that was Big George.

RockyMarcianofan00
04-30-2006, 07:05 PM
idk
Jefferies boxing skill would keep george off

but to win a fight you can't run forever so

Foreman would still get my nod

"Big" George Foreman in 6 KO or TKO

(if he doesn't hurt his hand)

Yaman
04-30-2006, 07:07 PM
And what makes ya'll think Foreman would hurt his hands? The guy would be a murderer if he fought with those gloves, so Jim would never be able to take everything from Foreman.

RockyMarcianofan00
04-30-2006, 07:10 PM
And what makes ya'll think Foreman would hurt his hands? The guy would be a murderer if he fought with those gloves, so Jim would never be able to take everything from Foreman.
true he would be a killer because with his strength and less padding it would double his power

but if you have alot of strength behind something like a fist with low padding he could break his hands.

you'll know what i mean if you train with like 14 oz gloves and you switch to like 10oz or lower you'll feel it in your hands, now take George's strength and put it behind that hand, it could break but

George still gets my nod,

Dempsey 1919
04-30-2006, 07:53 PM
ever seen foreman-lyle? enough said. foreman takes out jeffries in about 3 rounds. jeffries strength is overrated cause of the smaller opponents he fought, and his power is overrated because of the small gloves he used. foreman would jump all over him and beat him down like the racist coward he was worse than jack johnson kicked his ***got ass!

LondonRingRules
04-30-2006, 10:36 PM
=====foreman would jump all over him and beat him down like the racist coward he was worse than jack johnson kicked his ***got ass!========

** Kid, that box a day of Count Chockula has warped your noggin something fierce. Jeffries fought all the credible black contenders of his day from the gitgo, something Johnson was not talented enough to accomplish when he started off, in his prime, or when he finished up.

Try some Cheerios without the sugar.

Dempsey 1919
04-30-2006, 11:10 PM
=====foreman would jump all over him and beat him down like the racist coward he was worse than jack johnson kicked his ***got ass!========

** Kid, that box a day of Count Chockula has warped your noggin something fierce. Jeffries fought all the credible black contenders of his day from the gitgo, something Johnson was not talented enough to accomplish when he started off, in his prime, or when he finished up.

Try some Cheerios without the sugar.

be quiet, jeffries wouldn't do jack to foreman. foreman would brutalize that racist piece of ****!

tommyhearns804
04-30-2006, 11:31 PM
This may be a biased view but I would have to go with Foreman. I say biased because like everyone else here i have never seen Jefferies fight. He lost to Jack Johnson granted Johnson was in his prime and Jefferies was in anything but his prime. I woul still go with Foreman.

Foreman Vs. Marciano?

Marciano. Marciano does well against power hitters and is one of the most powerful ever himself. Marciano would take Foremans hits and deliever his own, then in later round Marciano would dominate. Marciano stanima is much better.

Typical racist stupid garbage.What 220 plus pound puncher did Marciano ever face?Maricano taking Foremans punches?Right kind of like he did Archie Moores right?If a natural 160 pound man like Moore who was at least 45 could floor Marciano with one shot then any 220 pound man who could punch from Foreman to Mike Tyson would blow him away in one round.
And Foreman only got tired in 2 out of his 81 fights which means he had pretty damn good stamina period.No fighter who fought Marciano even thought he was strong for a guy his own size.Moore said Durelle punched harder and since he fought them both i will take his word for it.Charles and Walcott were both knocked out alot quicker by other fighters.Maricano hit's as hard as the true heavyweights who came along after him?Only in your dreams boy.

I know I'm in the minority; but I just don't feel Foreman had an advantage on Jeffries skill-wise. Foreman, in his prime, was the epitome of a crude but powerful slugger. Jeffries, from the footage I've seen, was no wiz; but he had skill. Now,if you take into account the skill that Foreman showed in his second career then, yes...he would either be on par or even have the advantage; but young George..I just don't see it. He was just so damn powerful that he steamrolled guys.

You know why you don't see Foreman being more skilled?Because you are mildly retarded that is why.Fighters from that era at heavyweight weren't really that skilled.And you never even seen any of Jeffries fights to began with besides the fight with Johnson.Johnson was about 190 pounds out powered him.You can give me this bull crap about him not being in his prime but neither was Foreman when he came back after a 10 year lay off.He was well over 300 pounds before coming back and name one fighter who showed they were his equal in strength?
Foreman didnt use his jab much?Do you watch boxing or do people just tell you about it?Foreman used his jab all the time just like every other heavyweight who is good and who is around 6'4 or taller.The only fights in didnt use his jab much was in the Ali fight and Young fight and he lost both as you know.Foreman only winged wild punches going for a ko in the Ali fight.Foreman knocked out so many people because he was so damn powerful.
There isn't much footage of any heavyweight of the early 1900's K-Dogg and what is there shows all heavyweights just throwing one punch at a time and holding.Don't bring up smaller fighters because we are talking Jefferies a heavyweight.You really have no clue how durable he is because i believe he only had about 20 or so fights and he never had to face somebody coming to take his head off like lets say a prime Frazier Foreman did.
You boxing knowledge is childish at best.You have made no rational logical points and because of that you get ignored bye bye.Foreman still destroys any heavyweight before Liston with easy and 90 percent of the ones since Liston.

Dempsey 1919
04-30-2006, 11:36 PM
This may be a biased view but I would have to go with Foreman. I say biased because like everyone else here i have never seen Jefferies fight. He lost to Jack Johnson granted Johnson was in his prime and Jefferies was in anything but his prime. I woul still go with Foreman.

Foreman Vs. Marciano?

Marciano. Marciano does well against power hitters and is one of the most powerful ever himself. Marciano would take Foremans hits and deliever his own, then in later round Marciano would dominate. Marciano stanima is much better.

Typical racist stupid garbage.What 220 plus pound puncher did Marciano ever face?Maricano taking Foremans punches?Right kind of like he did Archie Moores right?If a natural 160 pound man like Moore who was at least 45 could floor Marciano with one shot then any 220 pound man who could punch from Foreman to Mike Tyson would blow him away in one round.
And Foreman only got tired in 2 out of his 81 fights which means he had pretty damn good stamina period.No fighter who fought Marciano even thought he was strong for a guy his own size.Moore said Durelle punched harder and since he fought them both i will take his word for it.Charles and Walcott were both knocked out alot quicker by other fighters.Maricano hit's as hard as the true heavyweights who came along after him?Only in your dreams boy.

I know I'm in the minority; but I just don't feel Foreman had an advantage on Jeffries skill-wise. Foreman, in his prime, was the epitome of a crude but powerful slugger. Jeffries, from the footage I've seen, was no wiz; but he had skill. Now,if you take into account the skill that Foreman showed in his second career then, yes...he would either be on par or even have the advantage; but young George..I just don't see it. He was just so damn powerful that he steamrolled guys.

You know why you don't see Foreman being more skilled?Because you are mildly retarded that is why.Fighters from that era at heavyweight weren't really that skilled.And you never even seen any of Jeffries fights to began with besides the fight with Johnson.Johnson was about 190 pounds out powered him.You can give me this bull crap about him not being in his prime but neither was Foreman when he came back after a 10 year lay off.He was well over 300 pounds before coming back and name one fighter who showed they were his equal in strength?
Foreman didnt use his jab much?Do you watch boxing or do people just tell you about it?Foreman used his jab all the time just like every other heavyweight who is good and who is around 6'4 or taller.The only fights in didnt use his jab much was in the Ali fight and Young fight and he lost both as you know.Foreman only winged wild punches going for a ko in the Ali fight.Foreman knocked out so many people because he was so damn powerful.
There isn't much footage of any heavyweight of the early 1900's K-Dogg and what is there shows all heavyweights just throwing one punch at a time and holding.Don't bring up smaller fighters because we are talking Jefferies a heavyweight.You really have no clue how durable he is because i believe he only had about 20 or so fights and he never had to face somebody coming to take his head off like lets say a prime Frazier Foreman did.
You boxing knowledge is childish at best.You have made no rational logical points and because of that you get ignored bye bye.Foreman still destroys any heavyweight before Liston with easy and 90 percent of the ones since Liston.

most of this i agree with.

hemichromis
05-01-2006, 01:41 AM
This may be a biased view but I would have to go with Foreman. I say biased because like everyone else here i have never seen Jefferies fight. He lost to Jack Johnson granted Johnson was in his prime and Jefferies was in anything but his prime. I woul still go with Foreman.

Foreman Vs. Marciano?

Marciano. Marciano does well against power hitters and is one of the most powerful ever himself. Marciano would take Foremans hits and deliever his own, then in later round Marciano would dominate. Marciano stanima is much better.

Typical racist stupid garbage.What 220 plus pound puncher did Marciano ever face?Maricano taking Foremans punches?Right kind of like he did Archie Moores right?If a natural 160 pound man like Moore who was at least 45 could floor Marciano with one shot then any 220 pound man who could punch from Foreman to Mike Tyson would blow him away in one round.
And Foreman only got tired in 2 out of his 81 fights which means he had pretty damn good stamina period.No fighter who fought Marciano even thought he was strong for a guy his own size.Moore said Durelle punched harder and since he fought them both i will take his word for it.Charles and Walcott were both knocked out alot quicker by other fighters.Maricano hit's as hard as the true heavyweights who came along after him?Only in your dreams boy.

I know I'm in the minority; but I just don't feel Foreman had an advantage on Jeffries skill-wise. Foreman, in his prime, was the epitome of a crude but powerful slugger. Jeffries, from the footage I've seen, was no wiz; but he had skill. Now,if you take into account the skill that Foreman showed in his second career then, yes...he would either be on par or even have the advantage; but young George..I just don't see it. He was just so damn powerful that he steamrolled guys.

You know why you don't see Foreman being more skilled?Because you are mildly retarded that is why.Fighters from that era at heavyweight weren't really that skilled.And you never even seen any of Jeffries fights to began with besides the fight with Johnson.Johnson was about 190 pounds out powered him.You can give me this bull crap about him not being in his prime but neither was Foreman when he came back after a 10 year lay off.He was well over 300 pounds before coming back and name one fighter who showed they were his equal in strength?
Foreman didnt use his jab much?Do you watch boxing or do people just tell you about it?Foreman used his jab all the time just like every other heavyweight who is good and who is around 6'4 or taller.The only fights in didnt use his jab much was in the Ali fight and Young fight and he lost both as you know.Foreman only winged wild punches going for a ko in the Ali fight.Foreman knocked out so many people because he was so damn powerful.
There isn't much footage of any heavyweight of the early 1900's K-Dogg and what is there shows all heavyweights just throwing one punch at a time and holding.Don't bring up smaller fighters because we are talking Jefferies a heavyweight.You really have no clue how durable he is because i believe he only had about 20 or so fights and he never had to face somebody coming to take his head off like lets say a prime Frazier Foreman did.
You boxing knowledge is childish at best.You have made no rational logical points and because of that you get ignored bye bye.Foreman still destroys any heavyweight before Liston with easy and 90 percent of the ones since Liston.

foreman didn't use his jab much at all, everything else i agree with

Southpaw Stinger
05-01-2006, 07:40 AM
foreman didn't use his jab much at all,

He used his jab more than you think, and it was very effective against Frazier.

tommyhearns804
05-01-2006, 08:36 AM
hemichromis Thanks your opinion shows you know your boxing just as much as i do.But watch any of Foreman fights that lasted more than a few rounds and you will see he use this jab alot.There was no way he would use his jab as much as a Larry Holmes and there was no reason for him to when Foreman's fights were over so quickly.
Watch how Foreman used his jab against Frazier before he knocked him down(Once Foreman floored Frazier the next time he didn't really have to use his jab the rest of the fight).I am sure you noticed this too.Foreman would push fighters who got close to him away.From smaller guys to guys his size he pushed them all away from him.Why would he do this right?Because like most taller fighters he was better fighting you from the outside.Shorter guys like Tyson are the ones who are good at throwing short powerful punches.
Foreman needed you to be off a little so he could really land his best power punches and he did this by pushing them away first and then jabbing to keep them away.As i said though most of his fights ended so quickly you didn't have much time to see this.I believe at least 40 of Foremans knock outs came with in the first 3 rounds.There is no way in the world a Jefferies type fighter could handle a Foreman type fighter period but then you add in those little gloves?Jefferies would get killed.

K-DOGG
05-01-2006, 11:07 AM
This may be a biased view but I would have to go with Foreman. I say biased because like everyone else here i have never seen Jefferies fight. He lost to Jack Johnson granted Johnson was in his prime and Jefferies was in anything but his prime. I woul still go with Foreman.

Foreman Vs. Marciano?

Marciano. Marciano does well against power hitters and is one of the most powerful ever himself. Marciano would take Foremans hits and deliever his own, then in later round Marciano would dominate. Marciano stanima is much better.

Typical racist stupid garbage.What 220 plus pound puncher did Marciano ever face?Maricano taking Foremans punches?Right kind of like he did Archie Moores right?If a natural 160 pound man like Moore who was at least 45 could floor Marciano with one shot then any 220 pound man who could punch from Foreman to Mike Tyson would blow him away in one round.
And Foreman only got tired in 2 out of his 81 fights which means he had pretty damn good stamina period.No fighter who fought Marciano even thought he was strong for a guy his own size.Moore said Durelle punched harder and since he fought them both i will take his word for it.Charles and Walcott were both knocked out alot quicker by other fighters.Maricano hit's as hard as the true heavyweights who came along after him?Only in your dreams boy.

I know I'm in the minority; but I just don't feel Foreman had an advantage on Jeffries skill-wise. Foreman, in his prime, was the epitome of a crude but powerful slugger. Jeffries, from the footage I've seen, was no wiz; but he had skill. Now,if you take into account the skill that Foreman showed in his second career then, yes...he would either be on par or even have the advantage; but young George..I just don't see it. He was just so damn powerful that he steamrolled guys.

You know why you don't see Foreman being more skilled?Because you are mildly retarded that is why.Fighters from that era at heavyweight weren't really that skilled.And you never even seen any of Jeffries fights to began with besides the fight with Johnson.Johnson was about 190 pounds out powered him.You can give me this bull crap about him not being in his prime but neither was Foreman when he came back after a 10 year lay off.He was well over 300 pounds before coming back and name one fighter who showed they were his equal in strength?
Foreman didnt use his jab much?Do you watch boxing or do people just tell you about it?Foreman used his jab all the time just like every other heavyweight who is good and who is around 6'4 or taller.The only fights in didnt use his jab much was in the Ali fight and Young fight and he lost both as you know.Foreman only winged wild punches going for a ko in the Ali fight.Foreman knocked out so many people because he was so damn powerful.
There isn't much footage of any heavyweight of the early 1900's K-Dogg and what is there shows all heavyweights just throwing one punch at a time and holding.Don't bring up smaller fighters because we are talking Jefferies a heavyweight.You really have no clue how durable he is because i believe he only had about 20 or so fights and he never had to face somebody coming to take his head off like lets say a prime Frazier Foreman did.
You boxing knowledge is childish at best.You have made no rational logical points and because of that you get ignored bye bye.Foreman still destroys any heavyweight before Liston with easy and 90 percent of the ones since Liston.

Is that it? "I know you are but what am I?"

Get an argument or get over it.

I have seen footage of a prime Jeffries against Tom Sharkey...and he's a different animal from the shadow that faced off against Johnson in 1910. Any man that can go 25 rounds in the kind of heat he and Sharkey fought under at Coney island with a dislocated elbow (broke two of Shakey's ribs) deserves respect from any fight fan.

The problem is YOU and so many others are SO enamoured with the MYTH of Big George that you can't see the forrest for the trees. You can't respect any fighter who fought before your daddy was born because it is incomprehensible to YOU that any fighter before Muhammad Ali was worth a ****...especially a White fighter. Heaven forbid.

You have not proven anything to me other than Foreman is your god and that you are entirely too close minded to even consider the possibility that any man who was born and fought in another time, in another century was Man Enough to beat your god.

Here's a newsflash genius; men who lived in the 1800's were tougher than you or your daddy could ever be in your wildest dreams because times were tougher back then. There was no electricity, there were few luxuries, and they had to work harder than you ever had a nightmare about. These horrid conditions by today's standards meant that ONLY THE STRONG succeeded.

Is Foreman tough? Of course he is and only a moron would suggest that he wasn't. The Fifth Ward in Houston when Foreman grew up, to say nothing of now, was as harsh of an environment for a young man to grow up in as is conceivable. But do you honestly think that Jeffries grew up any easier in the late 1800's? Hypocrite.

Jeffries was every bit as tough as Foreman, every bit as strong as Foreman, had as good as a chin as Foreman, and had more stamina than Foreman ever showed. The punching power edge would go to George; but if this fight went beyond 5, Jeffries would be the favorite, given George's track record.

I don't care if you think Foreman would win...he could have. The fact is I don't KNOW, You don't KNOW, and NOBODY KNOWS. You can't tell me who's going to win between two modern level B fighters getting it on at a small club in some po-dunk town some where in BFE. What the hell makes you think you can forecast with anymore than a modest degree of speculation who would win between two fighters who fought more than 80 years apart?

You "certainty" as to Foreman's supremacy doesn't trouble me. It's your lace of openmindedness to the possibility that you don't really know...and that just because someone sees things that you can't seem to fathom, you discount their opionion with needless insults.

The fact of the matter is, neither of us know what would happen in this mythical showdown...we only have our views, and yours is no better than mine, to say nothing of hopelessly flawed due to ignorance. I've forgotten more about boxing history than you will ever know, son. Like it or not.

Kid Achilles
05-01-2006, 11:13 AM
I mean even the smaller gloves theory has a drawback because it places a question mark under Foreman's chin. Jeffries was used to being hit by 4 oz gloves, we know he could take punishment from guys wearing them, and Foreman wasn't. Maybe under those conditions Foreman, who was hurt by several fighters who using bigger gloves, wouldn't have the chin everyone thinks.

You make it sound like the smaller gloves favor Foreman when they really favored Jeffries. Boxing has not gotten "better" since Jeffries time, it has only gotten different. You take the fight back to those times with Foreman fighting the same way he always did, mixed with his unfamiliarity in hitting and getting hit with smaller gloves, and one is hard pressed to find any advantage that Foreman possesses.

K-DOGG
05-01-2006, 11:48 AM
The thing that never ceases to amaze me is the thoughtless disregard by so many boxing fans of fighters from so many years ago; this whole, with today's training methods, etc. Such post-modernism arrogance is no different than those crotchedy old-timers who discount all modern fighters as being too soft to ever measure up to the all time greats they listened to on the radio. Specualtion has no place for absolutism; it's a contradiction of concepts.

If you look at the big picture from the beginning of boxing's modern roots with Jim Corbett to present, more things balance out than most are willing to admit. Today there's more technical dieting and weight training...supposedly. Bigger men are "better athletes". Right.

Today's modern big men only fight for 12 rounds. "but they only threw one punch a round". Says who? How preposterous is the idea that older fighters only threw 1 punch at a time all round? IT'S LUDICROUS!! Just because Dempsey was the first to through multi-punch combinations with murderous intentions that people remember doesn't mean that previous fighters hadn't done it. Where does the arrogance come from that "ancient" fighter didn't know how to throw two or three punches at a time?

The fact is those who wrap themselves in the blanket of modern securtiy can't admit to themselves that there is a strong possibilty that we have grown softer as a society. They don't want to admit for every plus, there's a minus; for every convenience invented, for every luxury brought into the mainstream, there is something lost.

Think about people before the 20th century who lived in un-airconditioned or unheated housing, save for the cool breeze and fireplace in uninsulated walls. Would they not look at today's modern civilization as a bunch of pansies?

"...with the advancement of weight training and physical conditioning, blah, blah, blah...."

Do not put your faith is such trinkets of deceit. There is a price to pay for every luxury. For everything you gain, you lose something. For every modern convenience, something is lost in terms of raw survival skills.

We, in the 21st century, take far too much for granted. And that's gonna come back to bite us in the ass someday.

mike casey
05-01-2006, 12:07 PM
Fellas, I have thoroughly enjoyed this exchange - intelligent comment indeed and such a refreshing change on the Net these days.

A heck of a tough call - George got to believe all that stuff about his lack of stamina, which I personally believed was exaggerated. He made the one mistake against Ali and got it into his head that he couldn't last the course.

He and Jeff were apart as genuine strong guys and I doubt whether either could have knocked the other out - Foreman by bruising decision over 12 or 15, Jeff by same over 20 or 25.

A clever darn way of saying I really don't know!!

All the best, guys,


Mike Casey

K-DOGG
05-01-2006, 12:29 PM
Fellas, I have thoroughly enjoyed this exchange - intelligent comment indeed and such a refreshing change on the Net these days.

A heck of a tough call - George got to believe all that stuff about his lack of stamina, which I personally believed was exaggerated. He made the one mistake against Ali and got it into his head that he couldn't last the course.

He and Jeff were apart as genuine strong guys and I doubt whether either could have knocked the other out - Foreman by bruising decision over 12 or 15, Jeff by same over 20 or 25.

A clever darn way of saying I really don't know!!

All the best, guys,


Mike Casey

If anyone knows...Mike Casey does...and if he doesn't know...

Nuff said...it's officially a kunundrum.

Thank you for your input, Mr. Casey.

Azteca
05-01-2006, 02:11 PM
re jeffries:

every contender & former champ he outweighed by at least 30lbs, in some cases it was as much as 60lbs. the only man he didn't outweigh by that much was Johnson, & that day he was beaten like he stole a rolex watch from the CIA.

now, if feffries fought in an era where the guys weighed as much as him i believe he wouldn't have that nice 22-0 record before he lost to johnson. to me a guy who has such a weight advantage over small fries cannot get my respect the way some on this board seem to give him. beating a 172 lb fitz for the title & beating a very over the hill corbett does'nt give credibility to his reign, IMO.

LondonRingRules
05-01-2006, 02:42 PM
======You make it sound like the smaller gloves favor Foreman when they really favored Jeffries. Boxing has not gotten "better" since Jeffries time, it has only gotten different. You take the fight back to those times with Foreman fighting the same way he always did, mixed with his unfamiliarity in hitting and getting hit with smaller gloves, and one is hard pressed to find any advantage that Foreman==============

** Foreman was more used to bareknuckled brawls than boxing. 4 oz gloves would be like manna from heaven for him. Put it this way, Foreman could walk through all of Jeff's opponents on the same card, just line em up, and boom, boom, boom, boom...Corbett is the only guy who would be problematic because of his footwork, but he never had a guy come at him that fast and the first time Foreman traps him that's all she wrote.

Sorry, but there were great advances made starting around the time Dempsey started. The Dempsey style carried into the modern era, and tremendous ring technicians like Gibbons and Loughran refined the jab, making it a dual use offensive and defensive weapon.

I don't disparage older fighters at all. They were technicians in their own right and tough as nails. Many of the greats would be great today without much retraining. Jeff would need a complete make over today, and his style back then didn't offer enough defense or firepower to get Foreman's respect.

Jeffries fought in a special style developed only for him. It didn't carry over to any other fighter that I'm aware of, and is not conducive to the fast starts needed against the typical modern fighter, especially a slugger monster trying to tear your head off with both hands.