View Full Version : A question to all of the sane members of this forum


tommyhearns804
04-29-2006, 02:05 PM
If Foreman was knocked down 4 times in 81 fights and Ali was knocked down 4 times in 61 fights would you say because Ron Lyle knocked down Foreman yet didn't knock down Ali that Ali had the better chin yet Frazier knocked down Ali and hurt him many times but couldn't hurt Foreman?
Or would you look at who and how each each knocked down?Over their careers i am sure most of you would say Foreman fought the harder punchers and i am including his second career where he fought huge punchers with out being knocked down.And in the Lyle fight when Foreman was knocked down 2 times would most of you agree that If Ali would of went toe to toe with Lyle he would be knocked down as well?(Come on Henry Cooper a complete nobody did so the bigger harder punching Lyle would of if Ali engaged him)
Ali was also hurt tons of times by punchers who weren't in the same league as a Cooney or a Tommy Morrison like Foreman fought and yet Foreman seem to walk thru just about every boxer he fought punches.Ali also boxed more.Ali didn't try to bang out any quick knock outs which ment Foreman opened up himself to be hit more than Ali.In his prime Foreman wasn't but he did open himself up to be hit.
Does that mean Ali has a glass chin?No but it does mean Foreman has a better chin and is less likely to be hurt by a hard punch than Ali was.Anyway i want to see who responded to this.I don't see how this forum could of changed so quickly.I went a few months with out coming here posting anything and now that i am back it seems all of the people who i praised for making this the best boxing forum i ever been apart of are gone.But i know there has to be some new people here who know their boxing and are not here to vent their stupidity or ignorance.

K-DOGG
04-29-2006, 02:34 PM
If Foreman was knocked down 4 times in 81 fights and Ali was knocked down 4 times in 61 fights would you say because Ron Lyle knocked down Foreman yet didn't knock down Ali that Ali had the better chin yet Frazier knocked down Ali and hurt him many times but couldn't hurt Foreman?
Or would you look at who and how each each knocked down?Over their careers i am sure most of you would say Foreman fought the harder punchers and i am including his second career where he fought huge punchers with out being knocked down.And in the Lyle fight when Foreman was knocked down 2 times would most of you agree that If Ali would of went toe to toe with Lyle he would be knocked down as well?(Come on Henry Cooper a complete nobody did so the bigger harder punching Lyle would of if Ali engaged him)
Ali was also hurt tons of times by punchers who weren't in the same league as a Cooney or a Tommy Morrison like Foreman fought and yet Foreman seem to walk thru just about every boxer he fought punches.Ali also boxed more.Ali didn't try to bang out any quick knock outs which ment Foreman opened up himself to be hit more than Ali.In his prime Foreman wasn't but he did open himself up to be hit.
Does that mean Ali has a glass chin?No but it does mean Foreman has a better chin and is less likely to be hurt by a hard punch than Ali was.Anyway i want to see who responded to this.I don't see how this forum could of changed so quickly.I went a few months with out coming here posting anything and now that i am back it seems all of the people who i praised for making this the best boxing forum i ever been apart of are gone.But i know there has to be some new people here who know their boxing and are not here to vent their stupidity or ignorance.

Hmmm, interesting point once I deciphered it.

I think both men had good chins; but would give Ali the edge. And..incidentally, ask anybody who knows and they'll tell you how good Henry Cooper's left hook was.

The main reason I give Ali the edge is because late in his career he took more shots flush and was only close to being knocked out by Frazier in the first fight (in the 11th round of a draining fight after a 3 year layoff...and he jumped up at the count of 2 in the 15th after the only knockdown of that fight) and Earnie Shavers, who is one of the hardest puncher of all time.

Foreman was nearlly knocked out by Ron Lyle, as you pointed out; but he was sporting a years's worth of ring rust at the time. Also he was dropped by the feather fisted Jimmy Young; but that, as the Ali loss was due more to exhaustion thant anything else...and heat stroke, possibly.

Now, while Foreman did take more flush shots in his second career, in his first career most of his opponents were being pushed backwards, which means there power was being diminished, whereas most of Ali's opponents were coming towards him, enhancing their punching power. So, in Foreman's second career, he did take flusher shots than in his first career; but by who? Morrison was on a bicycle for 12 rounds, Alex Steward punished him a lot; but wasn't a devastating puncher. Holyfield had him nearl out; and he's not a power puncher either. Moorer never had him hurt, really, for the 9 1/2 rounds he slammed his shots into him; but Mooorer was a blown up light-heavyweight...as was Holyfield.

Overall, Ali took more flush shots from harder punchers than Foreman did. Foreman was the harder paunchers and one of the ones that Ali survived and defeated. Also remember, part of Foreman's early stragedy was pushing his opponenent off, usually at their shoulders, which meant good punchers like Frazier and Norton were rarely set when they hit him.

Ali's, IMO, was the better chin, though George's was no slouch.

LondonRingRules
04-29-2006, 03:28 PM
=======So, in Foreman's second career, he did take flusher shots than in his first career; but by who? Morrison was on a bicycle for 12 rounds, Alex Steward punished him a lot; but wasn't a devastating puncher. Holyfield had him nearl out; and he's not a power puncher either. Moorer never had him hurt, really, for the 9 1/2 rounds he slammed his shots into him; but Mooorer was a blown up light-heavyweight...as was Holyfield.==============

** Baloney

Holy and Moorer are traditional heavies. Moorer had most of his fights at heavy where he averaged in the 220s and so did Holy who averaged in the 210s. Both would have fought as heavy in every era, but both were carefully managed when younger to keep them out of the heavy division and let them build up experience. Both were starving when they moved up. Holy never fought in the LH as a pro, and Moorer was over the LH mark for several fights before he ever won the WBO LH title.

At any rate, Foreman has the better overall chin. He took more punishment in his first career than did Ali, and more in his 2nd career and did it at a much older age. You say Morrison and Stewert can't punch, but they would've been top contenders in Ali's day and most assuredly would have made quick work of all those 180-200lb journeymen types Ali was fighting then.

Of course I'm not sure if Foreman could take the punishment he dished out on Ali, so it's subjective.

K-DOGG
04-29-2006, 03:48 PM
=======So, in Foreman's second career, he did take flusher shots than in his first career; but by who? Morrison was on a bicycle for 12 rounds, Alex Steward punished him a lot; but wasn't a devastating puncher. Holyfield had him nearl out; and he's not a power puncher either. Moorer never had him hurt, really, for the 9 1/2 rounds he slammed his shots into him; but Mooorer was a blown up light-heavyweight...as was Holyfield.==============

** Baloney

Holy and Moorer are traditional heavies. Moorer had most of his fights at heavy where he averaged in the 220s and so did Holy who averaged in the 210s. Both would have fought as heavy in every era, but both were carefully managed when younger to keep them out of the heavy division and let them build up experience. Both were starving when they moved up. Holy never fought in the LH as a pro, and Moorer was over the LH mark for several fights before he ever won the WBO LH title.

At any rate, Foreman has the better overall chin. He took more punishment in his first career than did Ali, and more in his 2nd career and did it at a much older age. You say Morrison and Stewert can't punch, but they would've been top contenders in Ali's day and most assuredly would have made quick work of all those 180-200lb journeymen types Ali was fighting then.

Of course I'm not sure if Foreman could take the punishment he dished out on Ali, so it's subjective.

Whoa. First of all, Moorer was NOT a natural heavyweight. He was a hard punching cruiserweight at best...maybe that's what you mean by "traditional heavyweight"; but he always looked soft to me as a heavyweight....and who of note did he knock out north of 200? Holyfield had to work out like crazy to put on the weight to be a heavy...once again, that must be what you mean by a "traditional heavyweight"...yet Holy's knock-outs of serious competition begin and end with Buster Douglas who was wayy out of shape...and quit, in my opinion in that fight. (the Dokes stoppage was in the 10th, ergo, due to attrition and the Steward stoppage was due to a cut) And, I never said Morrison couldn't punch...he was one of the hardest punching heavyweights who ever lived...but he didn't go after Foreman, he "boxed" such as it was. I needed help staying awake during that track meet. And saying Foreman had a better chin is subjective, just as my ascertainment that Ali had a better chin.

There is NO evidence that Foreman took harder shots than Ali.

LondonRingRules
04-29-2006, 04:03 PM
==========....and who of note did he knock out north of 200? Holyfield had to work out like crazy to put on the weight to be a heavy...once again, that must be what you mean by a "traditional heavyweight"...======

** Moorer knocked out Botha, Cooper, and Stewert, all multi title contenders. Holy only worked out to add extra weight on his natural heavy frame. He was fighting at 195-200 in his last cruiser bouts. Who cares is Moorer was soft? Ali was soft for most of his 2nd career in the 220 range, but nobody claims he was a blown up LH because he won a gold medal there.

K-DOGG
04-29-2006, 04:11 PM
==========....and who of note did he knock out north of 200? Holyfield had to work out like crazy to put on the weight to be a heavy...once again, that must be what you mean by a "traditional heavyweight"...======

** Moorer knocked out Botha, Cooper, and Stewert, all multi title contenders. Holy only worked out to add extra weight on his natural heavy frame. He was fighting at 195-200 in his last cruiser bouts. Who cares is Moorer was soft? Ali was soft for most of his 2nd career in the 220 range, but nobody claims he was a blown up LH because he won a gold medal there.

Botha, Cooper, and Steward?? Botha was in the 12th round, Cooper..hell, who hasn't stopped Cooper; but that fight was a thing of beauty, though I don't really consider Cooper a natural heavy anyway. If so, a small heavy, like Moorer and Holyfield and he was only ranked based on a tko over Joe Hipp and his losing performance against Evander. Cooper was a journeyman...a good journeyman; but a journeyman, nonetheless. And Steaward never had a chin for anything, which is why George signed to fight him...he looked like easy pickins.

But, to each his own.

K-DOGG
04-29-2006, 04:18 PM
All in all though, I do see your point about "traditional heavyweights"; but I still think Ali's chin was just a tad better.

Frazier's 15th round
04-29-2006, 04:19 PM
Foreman had a padded record. Ali fought more big punchers, and was only knocked down 4 times, so his chin is better.

LondonRingRules
04-29-2006, 04:28 PM
Foreman had a padded record. Ali fought more big punchers, and was only knocked down 4 times, so his chin is better.
** Ali was one of the all time kings of padded records. Why do you think little Leon beat him up? Ali had been propped up so long with phony decisions and TKOs that when a little active amateur style fighter with little experience made him look so bad that the judges were too embarrassed to give him a decision.

Look Ali was a great fighter, but sonny, you got's some splanin' to do if you want to compare records.

Frazier's 15th round
04-29-2006, 04:41 PM
Foreman's opponents and their records in 1972, before he fought Frazier:

Joe Murphy Goodwin, 0-14-1
Clarence Boone, 4-18
Ted Gullick, 15-5-1
Miguel Angel Paez, 48-15-13
Terry Sorrell, 4-14

LondonRingRules
04-29-2006, 06:23 PM
Ali's opponents before he met Liston:

Herb Siler, 1-1-0
Tony Esperti, 9-6-2
Jimmy Robinson, 0-1-0
Duke Sabedong, 15-11-1
Archie Moore...49 freakin' years old!

Frazier's 15th round
04-29-2006, 06:59 PM
Some of those guys you listed were from his first 5 bouts. The opponents I listed for Foreman were before he fought for the WORLD HEAVYWEIGHT TITLE. Foreman fought nothing but longshoremen, roadsweepers, and ham and eggers to pad his record.

Since you use Ali's earliest bouts against him, I'll use Foreman's against him. Of his 37 opponents before Frazier, 17 had losing records. 18 of them had 20 or less pro fights. I believe Chuvalo and Peralta were the only two guys who were even in the top 10.

tommyhearns804
04-29-2006, 09:19 PM
K-Dogg if you are going to say M Moorer wasn't a true heavyweight even though most of his career he fought as a heavyweight them why do people insist that Marciano is a true heavyweight?But anyway K-Dogg Cooper did not punch harder than Ron Lyle period.Besides knocking down Ali who else did he knock down who is worth mentioning?And again if Moorer was just a cruiserweight then the same would be said about Cooper.
Holyfield never had Foreman out.I don't know what fight that kid was watching.Holyfield landed 25 punches in a row at one time and of course Foreman moved just like any other man who was punched by somebody like Holyfield 25 straight punches but was never hurt.Morrison ran like a woman once he realized his punches weren't hurting Foreman(This was right after Mercer knocked out Morrison so i am sure Morrison didn't want the same thing to happen to him again)But Morrison landed some big punches.
This is to the kid who said Alex Stewart couldn't punch..So is that why he has 43 wins 40 by ko?The man was a vicious puncher in his prime.Shannon Briggs is a hard puncher who did nothing to a older weaker slower Foreman.Here is something some of you don' get.The older you get the less fluid you have around your brain which is the reason you see older fighters getting knocked down more than did when they were younger.So if a old 40 plus year old Foreman had the chin to take those punches then a younger Foreman would have a even better chin.
Not only was Ali easier to hurt he was hurt more often.If you had any punch at all you could hurt Ali.He would just grab on say something stupid and clowned around pretending to not be hurt until his head cleared..And don't bring up that young knocked Foreman down.If you watched the fight you knew Foreman slipped and the man was dead tired it is like saying Ali couldnt take it to the body because Chuck Wepner dropped Ali with one body punch.We both know either Ali was off balanced or Wepner stepped on Ali's foot when he was pulling away.
How many of you think that a man like Cooper could knock Foreman down and almost out with one punch?Or other 180 pound fighters like Doug Jones?Moorer punched harder than either and landed punch after punch on a old Foreman but did Foreman appear to be hurt and didnt our buddy K-Dogg just say even though Moorer was a hard puncher he was still basically a hard puncher at the cruiserweight divsion?So how many cruiserweights do you believe could flatten Foreman with one shot?None of you right?So i proved my point Foreman had alot better chin that Ali did.

tommyhearns804
04-29-2006, 09:24 PM
Frazier's 15th round do you have a point of talking about who Foreman fought before he fought Frazier?Was the post call that?Or did it have something to do with Foreman and Ali's chin?No you have no point.So Foreman fought a few bums before he fought Frazier and?Foreman still beat the crap out of Frazier which is what most people remember.I could find people Frazier fought who weren't that good but does that have anything to with him beating Ali?Nope so how about we stick to the post topic.

LondonRingRules
04-29-2006, 11:31 PM
Some of those guys you listed were from his first 5 bouts. The opponents I listed for Foreman were before he fought for the WORLD HEAVYWEIGHT TITLE. Foreman fought nothing but longshoremen, roadsweepers, and ham and eggers to pad his record.

Since you use Ali's earliest bouts against him, I'll use Foreman's against him. Of his 37 opponents before Frazier, 17 had losing records. 18 of them had 20 or less pro fights. I believe Chuvalo and Peralta were the only two guys who were even in the top 10.
** Hey, goofus, in his 4th pro fight, Foreman stopped Wepner in 3 rds. In his 2nd year as a pro he defeated Peralta and title contender Chuvalo he also stopped in 3 brutal rounds, the same guy that Ali had to fight off of him every single round in two matches that went the distance, both for belts.

In Ali's 4th pro fight he KOed a LH, Jimmy Robinson, who had never won a single bout and finished his record losing almost all his bouts by KO. That was also in Ali's 2nd year. Ali gave Chuckles Wepner a title fight and was knocked down, and roughed up in a fight he whined to the ref about all night.

Foreman also has a dominant record against common comp than does Ali.

Try again Junior. Get some tutoring though. You're completely UNSCHOOLED and need to spend some time in the dunce's corner.

Frazier's 15th round
04-29-2006, 11:44 PM
Hey, goofus, in his 4th pro fight, Foreman stopped Wepner in 3 rds. In his 2nd year as a pro he defeated Peralta and title contender Chuvalo he also stopped in 3 brutal rounds, the same guy that Ali had to fight off of him every single round in two matches that went the distance, both for belts.

In Ali's 4th pro fight he KOed a LH, Jimmy Robinson, who had never won a single bout and finished his record losing almost all his bouts by KO. That was also in Ali's 2nd year. Ali gave Chuckles Wepner a title fight and was knocked down, and roughed up in a fight he whined to the ref about all night.

Foreman also has a dominant record against common comp than does Ali.

Try again Junior. Get some tutoring though. You're completely UNSCHOOLED and need to spend some time in the dunce's corner.

Wepner had no boxing skills. He was rubbish. It's pointless to make a case for Foreman being a great fighter because he beat a human shock absorber like Wepner. I did mention that he beat Chuvalo and Peralta, but those were the only two names he had in 37 fights. And Wepner rabbit punched Ali all night. Wepner made Ali (who loved to hold and push down the head and neck) look bad with all of his fouling.

You mentioned in Ali's 4th fight that he took on a guy who lost almost all of his bouts by KO. Well, doofus, in Foreman's 33rd pro bout, he took on Goodwin (more like no-win) who was 0-14-1, and retired after this bout.

Dominant record against common comp? What the **** does that mean? While Ali occasionally had an easy fight, he was also beating good and great fighters. Foreman kept beating up on tomato cans. I guess that's what you meant. Ali took on contenders, while Foreman beat up on guys with losing records.

LondonRingRules
04-30-2006, 12:30 AM
Wepner had no boxing skills. He was rubbish. It's pointless to make a case for Foreman being a great fighter because he beat a human shock absorber like Wepner. I did mention that he beat Chuvalo and Peralta, but those were the only two names he had in 37 fights. And Wepner rabbit punched Ali all night. Wepner made Ali (who loved to hold and push down the head and neck) look bad with all of his fouling.

You mentioned in Ali's 4th fight that he took on a guy who lost almost all of his bouts by KO. Well, doofus, in Foreman's 33rd pro bout, he took on Goodwin (more like no-win) who was 0-14-1, and retired after this bout.

Dominant record against common comp? What the **** does that mean? While Ali occasionally had an easy fight, he was also beating good and great fighters. Foreman kept beating up on tomato cans. I guess that's what you meant. Ali took on contenders, while Foreman beat up on guys with losing records.
** Like I said Junior, git THEE some schoolin'!

Foreman was fighting stiffer comp much earlier than Ali. Also he his 2nd year he KOed Kirkman, and in his 3rd year he KOed Peralta in the rematch. In Ali's 3rd and 4th year he was winning specious bouts against Banks and Cooper and being deposited on his rump. He also had a controversial decision over Jones who he never gave a rematch.

His management just kept Foreman busier trying to get a title shot. That's why in his 5th year he won his title just like Ali in his 5th year, but George was a perfect 37-0 compared to Ali's 19-0. Ali had never beat a top contender before the Liston fight. Both Jones and Cooper were fringe contenders who had never challenged for a title. George beat a recent title contender and a future title contender.

If you Brits can't understand plain English then I suggest you learn Gaelic or French. Foreman has a more dominant record against common comp, plain and simple English. Ali has some advantages in that his retirement was only 3 yrs instead of 10, but even so George done some things no fighter has ever done and he did it without getting busted up by little Leon.

Frazier's 15th round
04-30-2006, 12:34 AM
Nope, he got busted up by little Jimmy, not to mention being completely embarrassed by Ali.

Ali won all 8 rounds in the RITJ, the fight was not even close.

LondonRingRules
04-30-2006, 01:54 AM
Nope, he got busted up by little Jimmy, not to mention being completely embarrassed by Ali.

Ali won all 8 rounds in the RITJ, the fight was not even close.
** Ali jocksniffer alert.

Fumes have caused brain damage. Client doesn't know where he is or how he got there and only has vague memories of a fighter named Ali who struggled mightily in his comeback and now has extremely serious health conditions today mirroring that of the client.

tommyhearns804
04-30-2006, 05:13 AM
LondonRingRules you should ignore the little child he is just upset because Foreman destroyed Frazier a fight he loves.He will say anything he can to try to put Foreman down.Ali won all 8 rounds against Foreman?For making a comment that stupid i have to put on my ignore list.Foreman won most of the rounds by being busy period.Jimmy Young busted up Foreman?What fight were you watching?Wait i know you mean Foreman busted up Frazier 2 times.Kicked the crap out of him so bad in their second fight he had to retire.
Foreman was never dominated in any fight his whole career which is something few fighters can claim.Frazier was beat up by Ali 2 times and Foreman 2 times and had to get a gift win when Bonavena dropped him 2 times in their first fight.
You make a great point LondonRingRules Ali was getting beat around by the likes of Leon Spinks when Ali was only 36 or so.He was done.But yet Foreman could have 30 fights after he was 38 years old and fight some world class fighter during that time and remain perfectly healthy..Do you have any clue to why this is?I do because Foreman was the superior fighter.He had his flaws but he was alot harder to beat than Ali was.Foreman crushed legends.Even when he was in his 40's men feared him.Men like Tyson ducked him.Who ducked Ali?Nobody was afraid to fight him.
He got lucky by beating Foreman and never gave him a rematch.But he had little problems giving just about every other fight he fought a rematch and some he even fought 3 times and yet no rematch for Foreman.Ali knew he was lucky.You don't press your lucky 2 times with a young Foreman.Ali is more popular because he was a clown.He did anything he could to make a fool out of himself so the media would laugh.Foreman did his job and went home.He beat destroyed legends in a few rounds while Ali struggled with the Coopers and Doug Jones of the world.
Ask Frazier if you could make him young and make Ali and Foreman young again and then ask who he would rather fight.I bet you he would shyt his pants if he had to fight Foreman again.He knew he could never win.Ask any person who would they rather be Ali a boxer with limited power who could be hurt by weaker smaller men,who is only known today because he was a suck up and he has brain damage..or Foreman a man who destroyed his opponents,a man who could win the title at 45,to be Foreman a man who is still in great health and could probably box again today if he wanted too.All logical people would want to be Foreman.Nobody would want to be Ali or your boy Frazier.
Get a grip kid or you will end up being as big of a loser as Kid Achillies.

M26
04-30-2006, 06:38 AM
I would say Muhammad Ali had the stronger chin of the two. That's not taking anything away from George Foreman though. He had a great chin also.

Frazier's 15th round
04-30-2006, 09:05 AM
I suggest you go back and watch Ali-Foreman again. Now, can you honestly say that Foreman won a single round? Ali hit him with hard shots, over and over and over and over, while Foreman could barely land a clean shot to Ali. There was one point where Foreman hit him with about 10 body shots in a row, and that might be the only round that Foreman even remotely came close to winning.

Ali exposed Foreman for the caveman that he is. Foreman would paw at Ali, but Ali leaned back, nailed George with some hard jabs and crosses, taunted him, toyed with him a bit, and repeated the process for 7 rounds. Foreman, like the ***** that he is, was too scared to get off the canvas. Ali made him look like an absolute clown that night. And then Young schools him 3 years later. George sees his vision, comes back, fights a bunch of roadsweepers, gets a lucky shot against Moorer to win the title, and then avoids B and C level fighters.

Foreman's power is unmatched, but his pawing technique looks horrible, and his stamina leaves something to be desired. You mention that Ali struggled with Doug Jones and Henry Cooper. Well, Foreman struggled with Levi Forte, Roberto Davila, and Everett Martin.

I won't get into the "gift" win about Frazier vs Bonavena, but Frazier dominated him from Round 3 on. He also easily beat him in the rematch.

tommyhearns804
04-30-2006, 09:09 AM
M26 thanks for replying but could you please explain why you believe he had a better chin?Did you not read what i just typed?How could you have read it and then say Ali had a better chin?Let me do this one more time for you little kids out there.
1 Foreman was never knocked down with one punch while Ali was knocked down 4 times in his career with one punch.
2. Ali was hurt far more times in this career than Foreman was even though Foreman was the one moving forward and Ali was moving away which ment when Foreman was hit he was hi t harder.
3. Foreman is completely healthy today and lets just say Ali isn't.
4 Either you have to say Foreman was far tougher or he had a superior chin.

Frazier's 15th round
04-30-2006, 09:09 AM
The ways to score a fight are effective aggression, defense, ring generalship, and clean hard punching. Foreman's aggression was not effective, as any time he goes to meet Ali, he's greeted by a few CLEAN HARD punches to the face while not returning any. Ali's defense is excellent, as he makes Foreman miss so many shots, while Foreman's defense is laughable. Finally, ring generalship. Ali rope-a-doped Foreman, so yes, he made Foreman fight his (Ali's) fight.

This was the same in Rounds 1-8. Ali won them all.

K-DOGG
04-30-2006, 11:41 AM
K-Dogg if you are going to say M Moorer wasn't a true heavyweight even though most of his career he fought as a heavyweight them why do people insist that Marciano is a true heavyweight?But anyway K-Dogg Cooper did not punch harder than Ron Lyle period.Besides knocking down Ali who else did he knock down who is worth mentioning?And again if Moorer was just a cruiserweight then the same would be said about Cooper.
Holyfield never had Foreman out.I don't know what fight that kid was watching.Holyfield landed 25 punches in a row at one time and of course Foreman moved just like any other man who was punched by somebody like Holyfield 25 straight punches but was never hurt.Morrison ran like a woman once he realized his punches weren't hurting Foreman(This was right after Mercer knocked out Morrison so i am sure Morrison didn't want the same thing to happen to him again)But Morrison landed some big punches.
This is to the kid who said Alex Stewart couldn't punch..So is that why he has 43 wins 40 by ko?The man was a vicious puncher in his prime.Shannon Briggs is a hard puncher who did nothing to a older weaker slower Foreman.Here is something some of you don' get.The older you get the less fluid you have around your brain which is the reason you see older fighters getting knocked down more than did when they were younger.So if a old 40 plus year old Foreman had the chin to take those punches then a younger Foreman would have a even better chin.
Not only was Ali easier to hurt he was hurt more often.If you had any punch at all you could hurt Ali.He would just grab on say something stupid and clowned around pretending to not be hurt until his head cleared..And don't bring up that young knocked Foreman down.If you watched the fight you knew Foreman slipped and the man was dead tired it is like saying Ali couldnt take it to the body because Chuck Wepner dropped Ali with one body punch.We both know either Ali was off balanced or Wepner stepped on Ali's foot when he was pulling away.
How many of you think that a man like Cooper could knock Foreman down and almost out with one punch?Or other 180 pound fighters like Doug Jones?Moorer punched harder than either and landed punch after punch on a old Foreman but did Foreman appear to be hurt and didnt our buddy K-Dogg just say even though Moorer was a hard puncher he was still basically a hard puncher at the cruiserweight divsion?So how many cruiserweights do you believe could flatten Foreman with one shot?None of you right?So i proved my point Foreman had alot better chin that Ali did.

You're a funny guy. Moorer and Cooper were both blown up Cruiserweights by today's standards; and if you'd done your research properly, you'd know that most of Moorer's knock-outs came against light-heavyweights and inept heavyweights.

And though I agree it was exhaustion more than anything else that dropped Foreman against Young...he did "slip" over a straight right hand.

Holyfield-Foreman...go back and look at the closing seconds of the 9th round. If Vander's right had landed one minute before it did, Big George would have had a hard time lasting the round out without going down.

Steward had one of the most padded records I've ever seen as evidenced by his being beaten every time he stepped up in competition....if you say otherwise, you are as much as adimitting you don't know what the hell you're talking about. Not to mention, FYI...most of Stewart's knock-outs were due to accumulation of punishment on those second rate heavyweights...not one-punch power. Look it up.

"Not only was Ali easier to hurt he was hurt more often."...you have no proof of this. Ali fought and beat bigger punchers than Foreman ever faced, George being one of them....and most were in his second career after he had come down off his toes and took more shots. I've already listed them; but for your convenience and education, I'll do it again:

Liston (first career...would have said 2wice; but the second match didn't really last long enough to consider), Quarry (decent punching heavyweight with a good left hook...Ali beat him twice without getting hurt once.),Frazier (3 times), Foster, Foreman, Lyle, Norton (decent puncher...3 times), & Shavers (quite possibly the hardest punching man who ever lived and Ali was 35 when he fought and beat him without going down once) Of those big punchers, only Frazier dropped Ali, and that was in the last..15th...round of a grueling fight. Can see George lasting 15 rounds in a war like that?? I can't.

Foreman: Frazier (twice, thought Joe was shot in their second meeting..and trying to box), Norton (decent punching heavyweight who George moved back constantly as he did Frazier, preventing him to set himself to unleash with the most force), Lyle (Foreman dropped twice and in trouble on multiple occasions), Hernandez (not a big punching journeyman; but rocked Foreman shortly before Geroge closed the show..big right hand, look it up), Cooney (rocked George bad in the first), Ken Lakusta (not a big punching Canadian journeyman who rocked George with an overhand right...right before George finished him off), Holyfield (not a big punching heavyweight; but nearly had George out in the 9th), Morrison (superb punching heavyweight with a glass jaw who proceeded to pull a Carl Williams immation for 12 rounds only offering a pot shot here and there), Moorer (decent punching heavyweight with a glass jaw), Savarese (okay punching heavyweight with a padded record that lost everytime he stepped up), Briggs (decent punching heavyweight who ran like a girl for all of the fight and was given a gift decision while only offering a modest offense.

As you can see, I never said George didn't have a good jaw; but there is more evidence of Ali taking harder flush shots than Foreman...ergo, my decision that Ali had a better jaw.

IMO, if Shavers had landed the right hand on Foreman that he hit Ali with in the 2nd round, Foreman would have gone down and gone down hard and been finished off by the follow up assault.

LondonRingRules
04-30-2006, 02:01 PM
IMO, if Shavers had landed the right hand on Foreman that he hit Ali with in the 2nd round, Foreman would have gone down and gone down hard and been finished off by the follow up assault.
** Shavers wouldn't last 1 min against George. He was a popular, powerful fighter, but slow and limited not to mention being weak jawed. Now, ain't you got a dress to press for the prom? You saw what happened against Tex Cobb, and Cobb is slower than Christmas on Vicodin and had limited power.

K-DOGG
04-30-2006, 02:05 PM
** Shavers wouldn't last 1 min against George. He was a popular, powerful fighter, but slow and limited not to mention being weak jawed. Now, ain't you got a dress to press for the prom? You saw what happened against Tex Cobb, and Cobb is slower than Christmas on Vicodin and had limited power.

Not the point. The point being the right hand that landed. I'm not saying Shavers would have beaten Foreman in a fight...I'm saying THAT right hand would have flattened George...he might have gotten up as he did against Lyle; but if Ron could put him down...THAT Shaver's right hand sure as hell would have.

Please pay attention to the context. :cool:

M26
04-30-2006, 02:18 PM
M26 thanks for replying but could you please explain why you believe he had a better chin?Did you not read what i just typed?How could you have read it and then say Ali had a better chin?Let me do this one more time for you little kids out there.
1 Foreman was never knocked down with one punch while Ali was knocked down 4 times in his career with one punch.
2. Ali was hurt far more times in this career than Foreman was even though Foreman was the one moving forward and Ali was moving away which ment when Foreman was hit he was hi t harder.
3. Foreman is completely healthy today and lets just say Ali isn't.
4 Either you have to say Foreman was far tougher or he had a superior chin.

1. Ali was sometimes knocked down with one punch, mainly because of his style of fighting. He went straight back, making it easier to send him to the canvas while he was off balance. Plus, you have to consider the fact that going down don't mean you have a lesser chin than the one that stays erect. Ali got right back up, so this does not prove Foreman had the stronger chin.

2. I never saw Ali hurt in his prime. He was hurt against Cooper as an underdeveloped 21-year-old, and against Frazier after many rounds of hard fighting. But his great recuperative abilities helped him recover. Foreman was not hurt because he fought tomato cans and/or he overwhelmed his foes so he never got into the deep end of the pool where he was at risk of getting hurt. When not being able to stop his opponents right away, he could be hurt, as we saw in the Lyle fight.

3. Ali is a sorry sight today, that's for sure. But this does not prove his chin to be of lower quality than that of Foreman. If anything, I would say it favors Alis chin. The logic is as follows - because of his great chin, he was never knocked out. Instead he took ALOT of hard punches to the head, especially in the late 70s. It was his ability to take punches that is the reason for his current health.

4. I have to disagree with you on this one, Tommyhearns..

K-DOGG
04-30-2006, 02:23 PM
1. Ali was sometimes knocked down with one punch, mainly because of his style of fighting. He went straight back, making it easier to send him to the canvas while he was off balance. Plus, you have to consider the fact that going down don't mean you have a lesser chin than the one that stays erect. Ali got right back up, so this does not prove Foreman had the stronger chin.

2. I never saw Ali hurt in his prime. He was hurt against Cooper as an underdeveloped 21-year-old, and against Frazier after many rounds of hard fighting. But his great recuperative abilities helped him recover. Foreman was not hurt because he fought tomato cans and/or he overwhelmed his foes so he never got into the deep end of the pool where he was at risk of getting hurt. When not being able to stop his opponents right away, he could be hurt, as we saw in the Lyle fight.

3. Ali is a sorry sight today, that's for sure. But this does not prove his chin to be of lower quality than that of Foreman. If anything, I would say it favors Alis chin. The logic is as follows - because of his great chin, he was never knocked out. Instead he took ALOT of hard punches to the head, especially in the late 70s. It was his ability to take punches that is the reason for his current health.

4. I have to disagree with you on this one, Tommyhearns..

Fantastic Post!