View Full Version : The REAL Best Chins Ever Poll


Hous
04-26-2006, 02:08 PM
Joe Grimm no doubt, the guy never won a fight but he fought everyone of the greatest during his career. Each of them thought they could take him down, they all won by points.

[img]http://sugarhanrules.tripod.com/JoeGrim3.jpg[img]

Here is his boxrec, http://www.boxrec.com/boxer_display.php?boxer_id=010815

As Nat Fleischer would say of him, "Grim could neither box nor punch but he possessed an abundance of courage, in fact, too much for his own good. He was slow on his feet and even slower in his thought process. Though he had none of the assets that go to make a good fighter, for many years he was a great drawing card only because of his staying powers and his raw courage. His ability to absorb punishment was incomparable."

Robert E. Howard, creator of Conan the Barbarian, and an avid boxing fan born in the era of Grim, said, "If he ever won a fight, it is not on record. He was neither a boxer nor a fighter in the true sense of the word. He was wide open; a blind man could hit him."

Joe Grim began his career in 1903 with a match against Philadelphia Jack O' Brien, future Hall of Famer. It was a six round contest between O'Brien's punching ability and Grim's toughness. O'Brien broke the knuckles of his right hand trying to stop the unknown kid who came in wide open, throwing windmill punches the ring posts could duck. The fight was a No Contest both by official score and by any method of judging a bout, but it ushered in the bizarre, side-show career of Joe Grim.

Grim's notoriety grew with each succeeding fight. He took terrible beatings from the greatest fighters of his era yet always ended his fights by walkingto the ropes and shouting to the crowd, "I am Joe Grim! Nobody can knock me out!"

It wasn't from lack of trying. The best punchers of the first two decades of the 20th century from lightweight to heavyweight took their turns trying to put the Indian Rubber Man down for the count. Philadelphia Jack O'Brien, Joe Walcott, Joe Gans, Jack Johnson, Johnny Kilbane, Sam McVey, Tommy Sullivan, and Battling Levinsky all took their shots, some more than once. They could put him down, they just couldn't make him stay down.

In Grim's 4th fight he was matched with the great Joe Walcott, the famed welterweight champion. He took a shellacking but was still standing after six rounds.

In his next fight he stepped in with Bob Fitzsimmons, former World Heavyweight Champion and current World Light Heavyweight Champion. For six rounds Ruby Robert used every punch known to pugilism to try to finish Grim. He drove in the body blows which had dropped Jim Corbett and won Fitz the title but Grim's rock-hard body accepted them without complaint. In those six furious rounds Bob knocked Grim down sixteen times! And sixteen times, Grim got back up. He even managed to land the last blow of the fight, a kind of "I'm still here" message to his tormentor. As Robert E. Howard described it, he then reeled to the ropes and, grinning through torn lips, shouted his defiance into the crowd, "I am Joe Grim! I fear no man! I challenge that bigga Jeem Jeff' fora da title".

But Jim Jeffries, heavyweight champion already on the verge of retiring undefeated, wasn't interested in fighting an unknown who had just lost his 5th straight fight without a win to the mix. Instead, the promoters set Grim up with Joe Gans, World Lightweight champion and future HOF inductee. Gans weighed in at 138 to Grim's 165 but extra weight was all Grim had in his side of the scales; that and his amazing resilience. The Old Master Gans had no difficulty dealing with the roundhouse swings and the wide open stance of the Italian. He worked inside and battered Joe to a sixth round No Decision which every paper dubbed a totally one-sided victory. Three months later they tried it again, meeting in a 10 round fight, and the only difference was the extra four rounds of pounding Grim absorbed.

Word of Grim spread and people flocked to see who would knock him out first. A succession of fighters tried, some more than once, but come the final bell, Joe Grim would still be standing and able to hurl his challenge to the world, "Nobody can knock me out!"

Twenty or so fights, and losses, into his career Joe Grim laced up to meet future heavyweight champion Jack Johnson in July, 1905. Jack was looking for his shot at the title, but in March he'd lost a 20 rounder to Marvin Hart and he needed something to minimize the loss. A knockout win over the man nobody else could knockout would surely make the boxing crowd take notice. Even though Johnson weighed 210 to only 165 for Grim, there were still doubts he could put the human punching bag away. Confident of his punch, Johnson had wagered heavily that he'd knock the man out.

Some 3000 people, including Nat Fleischer, future founder of The Ring, paid to see the match in Philadelphia and it would be even money on which fighter was the main draw. In the first three rounds Grim was beaten around the ring. He would drop and the crowd would shout, "Get up Joe!" and Joe would get up, a broad grin on his bloodied face. In the fourth Johnson landed a punch that dropped his opponent to the floor with a thud. Grim waited on hands and knees as the referee counted, then jumped up before the count of "ten". Three more times he went down in the round, three more times he got up. The forth round followed suit, and in his corner, an amazed Jack Johnson declared, "He ain't human."

In the fifth Grim was down six times, three times for a count of eight and three times for a count of nine. Each time he rolled to his belly, climbed to his knees, and waited for the referee to "almost" count him out before rising amid the cheers of the crowd. It wasn't boxing, it was a circus act with the lion tamer letting the lions do their worst, then leaving the cage savaged and bloody to take his bows.

The sixth and final round saw a desperate Johnson trying to win his bets. Jack caught Grim with a right to the chin so hard, as Nat Fleischer said, ". it caused Grim to turn a complete somersault." The referee counted as Grim lay there senseless, some thought dead. It appeared he wouldn't beat the count, but on eight the bell rang, ending the fight and saving Grim from his first knockout. He had been knocked down eighteen times by one of the hardest punchers of his time but he hadn't been counted out. In Grim's mind, the defeat was a victory of the only sort he would ever know. More fights followed and the Iron Man didn't disappoint the fans of that cruder era. He didn't win, but he didn't fail to shout out after the final bell, "I'm Joe Grim! Nobody knocks out Joe Grim!"

All of the names are from Boxing Scenes 1991 issue of the ten greatest chins.

Yogi
04-26-2006, 03:28 PM
Bearden's article on Grim isn't all that accurate (****, a large portion of it was taken from Howard's fictional boxing story, "The Iron Man", which was lossely based on Grim)...especially the claim that Grim had never won a fight, which is a claim that is simply not true. The International Boxing Research Organization (specifically, Luckett Davis) did extensive research on Grim's career some time ago ago, and during that research they/he found that his record is atleast the following;

W: 40
L: 116
D: 21
KO: 15
NC: 1
ND:2 (newpaper articles not found for those two fights)

While a great tool in general for boxing records, people have to learn not to accept BoxRec's records as factual and/or complete...especially for the fighters from back in Grim's day and age. In fact, even BoxRec's record researchers admit that they have only been able to compile a very small percentage of data from the actual fights that have taken place throughout history. One of them even stated he believed it was as low as about 5%.

Anyways, if you're looking for a great and more accurate read on Grim, there's an excellant & very extensive article written by Pete Ehrmann that was featured in the Dec 1990 issue of Ring Magazine.

JuicyJuice
04-26-2006, 03:37 PM
Gerald McClellan has the best chin I've seen.

blockhead
04-26-2006, 04:07 PM
Joe Grimm no doubt, the guy never won a fight but he fought everyone of the greatest during his career. Each of them thought they could take him down, they all won by points.

[img]http://sugarhanrules.tripod.com/JoeGrim3.jpg[img]

Here is his boxrec, http://www.boxrec.com/boxer_display.php?boxer_id=010815



All of the names are from Boxing Scenes 1991 issue of the ten greatest chins.
jack johnson knocked him down 12 times.

RockyMarcianofan00
04-26-2006, 04:09 PM
i haven't seen all of those guys fight but definitely Jake Lamatta and Rocky Marciano are in the top 5 (or top 10 at the very least) Lamatta could take a beating like no man i've ever seen

blockhead
04-26-2006, 04:19 PM
jake lamotta wins, chuvalo is his only competition.

RockyMarcianofan00
04-26-2006, 04:24 PM
jake lamotta wins, chuvalo is his only competition.
never seen Chuvalo but I know lamatta could take hits for Many many rounds and then get off the ropes and rape somebody with his fists :boxing:

blockhead
04-26-2006, 04:26 PM
never seen Chuvalo but I know lamatta could take hits for Many many rounds and then get off the ropes and rape somebody with his fists :boxing:
chuvalo was a beast, he would sometimes take more than one fight in a single night.

RockyMarcianofan00
04-26-2006, 04:28 PM
he must have fought in the early days of boxing becasue they dont' do that anymore

blockhead
04-26-2006, 04:29 PM
he must have fought in the early days of boxing becasue they dont' do that anymore
he fought in the sixties and seventies.

RockyMarcianofan00
04-26-2006, 04:33 PM
he fought in the sixties and seventies.
for real i thought they stopped that stuff in like the 30's- fighting two fights in one night

blockhead
04-26-2006, 04:41 PM
for real i thought they stopped that stuff in like the 30's- fighting two fights in one night
nope, he was the canadian hw champ. he lost to ali and others of the era.

Yogi
04-26-2006, 04:41 PM
for real i thought they stopped that stuff in like the 30's- fighting two fights in one night

It's much more rare in the more modern era, but it still happens in such states/countries with a looser or less strict boxing commision in place...For example, back in the early 90's Frans Botha once knocked out a few different fighters on the same night on a card that took place in Oklahoma.

Southpaw Stinger
04-26-2006, 04:45 PM
for real i thought they stopped that stuff in like the 30's- fighting two fights in one night

Foreman fought 5 exhibition fights in one night once, winning them all by KO or 4 by KO - somthing like that!

Hous
04-26-2006, 04:47 PM
I dont think he fought more than once a day after amateurs, but he fought more than once in a month a couple times. I looked at some of the dates. His first 5 pro fights are listed as happening on the same day though.

Anyone else notice half of the top ten are Italian? Like real Italian not Italian-American, but either born in Italy or come from staunchly Italian families.

Born in Italy
Joe Grim
Vito Antuofermo

American born but staunchly Italian
Jake LaMotta
Rocky Marciano
George Chuvalo

They all grew up speaking Italian, english as a second language. I may be wrong about Chuvalo though.

Most of them come from around the same era also, what was happening in Italy prior to 1939?

blockhead
04-26-2006, 04:54 PM
I dont think he fought more than once a day after amateurs, but he fought more than once in a month a couple times. I looked at some of the dates. His first 5 pro fights are listed as happening on the same day though.

Anyone else notice half of the top ten are Italian? Like real Italian not Italian-American, but either born in Italy or come from staunchly Italian families.

Born in Italy
Joe Grim
Vito Antuofermo

American born but staunchly Italian
Jake LaMotta
Rocky Marciano
George Chuvalo

They all grew up speaking Italian, english as a second language. I may be wrong about Chuvalo though.

Most of them come from around the same era also, what was happening in Italy prior to 1939?

chuvalo was from canada not america.

Yogi
04-26-2006, 05:06 PM
chuvalo was from canada not america.

Yeah that, and also the fact that his parents first came over to Canada from the former Yugoslavia (currently Bosnia & Herzegovinia) shortly after the first world war and made their new home in Toronto.

*Edit

oldgringo
04-26-2006, 05:24 PM
marvin hagler hands down.

RockyMarcianofan00
04-26-2006, 07:37 PM
marvin hagler hands down.
i disagree, Lamatta used to let ppl just wail on him until he got tired, sorta like rope-a-dope but he actually threw some offense so he didn't like completely look dead and get tko'd

Yaman
04-26-2006, 08:24 PM
marvin hagler hands down.

Did he ever get knocked down?

Da Iceman
04-26-2006, 08:36 PM
marciano grew up with english as a first language and he probably knew some italian.

joeytrimble
04-26-2006, 09:38 PM
jake lamotta hands down he took sugar ray robinson 7 times and never went down...that'd be like hagler fighting the perfect version of tommy hearns 7 times it didnt happen though

tommyhearns804
04-27-2006, 05:38 AM
The people on the list are hilarious.Why is Ali on the list but not Foreman when Foreman had over 80 fights and only been down 4 times which is the same amount of times Ali been down but Ali had alot less fights.Not to mention Ali was hurt tons of times and Foreman was not.
Marciano was knocked down 2 times by one punch and the people he fought weren't really that skilled.Joe Grim was a bum and was knocked down tons of times he just got up most of the time and by the way he was knocked out a few times earlier in this career i read his story.
And stop watching "Raging Bull" Lamotta wasn't that damn tough.It was a freaking movie.Lamotta was hurt tons of times by weak punchers he just held on alot.Taking alot of punches from Ray Robinson is no big deal.Ray probably fought more bums in his career than any fighter who ever lived.
Chuvalo had a great chin and never been down but he was hust so many freaking times i can't even began to count them.David Tua never been down as a pro period or been hurt.Hagler was never hurt or down either (He went down from a slip but if you watched the fight you know it was just that a slip and not a knock down)
You people really need to learn your boxing and stop watching movies about fighters or going about what you heard.
And to the kid who said most of the fighters with great chins are italian..Then didn't you notice since the italian mafia lost control of boxing no italians have won a world title?Not to bash italians but italians are probably the most unskilled worthless fighters of all the races.I have seen great irish fighters boxing today.Polish,Russian,Black,Mexican,Puerto Rican.Normal american white,British,but where are the italians?There are none kid because they were only good at beating each other.

blockhead
04-27-2006, 06:13 AM
The people on the list are hilarious.Why is Ali on the list but not Foreman when Foreman had over 80 fights and only been down 4 times which is the same amount of times Ali been down but Ali had alot less fights.Not to mention Ali was hurt tons of times and Foreman was not.
Marciano was knocked down 2 times by one punch and the people he fought weren't really that skilled.Joe Grim was a bum and was knocked down tons of times he just got up most of the time and by the way he was knocked out a few times earlier in this career i read his story.
And stop watching "Raging Bull" Lamotta wasn't that damn tough.It was a freaking movie.Lamotta was hurt tons of times by weak punchers he just held on alot.Taking alot of punches from Ray Robinson is no big deal.Ray probably fought more bums in his career than any fighter who ever lived.
Chuvalo had a great chin and never been down but he was hust so many freaking times i can't even began to count them.David Tua never been down as a pro period or been hurt.Hagler was never hurt or down either (He went down from a slip but if you watched the fight you know it was just that a slip and not a knock down)
You people really need to learn your boxing and stop watching movies about fighters or going about what you heard.
And to the kid who said most of the fighters with great chins are italian..Then didn't you notice since the italian mafia lost control of boxing no italians have won a world title?Not to bash italians but italians are probably the most unskilled worthless fighters of all the races.I have seen great irish fighters boxing today.Polish,Russian,Black,Mexican,Puerto Rican.Normal american white,British,but where are the italians?There are none kid because they were only good at beating each other.

you like the ****, dont you?

hemichromis
04-27-2006, 08:35 AM
i think ali he was in an era of some big punchers and after watching him versuus shavers i think it would take a sledgehammer to knock him out

oldgringo
04-27-2006, 10:55 AM
i disagree, Lamatta used to let ppl just wail on him until he got tired, sorta like rope-a-dope but he actually threw some offense so he didn't like completely look dead and get tko'd


I can't see how there's room for "disagreement" on Hagler. LaMotta had a hell of a chin too...I have no doubts about that. Hagler was still never hurt, never legitimately dropped, never stopped in any single one of his fights.

Eugene Hart
Bennie Briscoe
Thomas HEarns
John Mugabi

4 of the top 100 punchers of all-time. Hagler took every single ones best punches and walked through them. I'd say Haglers chin is tied for the best at least.

Also, just because you get hit a lot and take it doesn't mean you should get the nod over another guy. It's not Haglers fault he wasn't a punching bag.

joeytrimble
04-27-2006, 11:41 AM
people that say stop watching raging bull...thats just it! you! need to stop watching it lmao i've actually SEEN the lamotta fights and YES he WAS that TOUGH ...how the hell you think he was able to slap around the mafia and stay number 1 contender for 4 years

and if your wondering why ali was mentioned over foreman get this

liston x2 ... shavers... foreman... fraizer x 3 ... larry holmes at an old age without going down ... patterson....archie moore... norton x3

when foreman puts together a resume like this....then come talk to me about him not being hurt but untill then yeah try to read a book or something bro

Kid Achilles
04-27-2006, 11:45 AM
Whether it's his fault or not is irrelevant, we're trying to find out who had the best chin. Obviously a guy who gets tagged a lot is going to be hurt more, dropped more, and appear to have a worse chin than a guy like James Toney who is rarely hit flush. People knock Gatti's chin because he's often staggered but if Toney took similar punishment in every fight you'd see him appear stunned and staggered more often too.

Foreman was not hit very often by big punchers early in his career and when he met one (Ron Lyle) we all saw what happened. His chin was not as good as Ali's, who took punishment from Lyle, Shavers, Frazier, Foreman etc and in spite of it all was never truly knocked out or even hurt as badly as Foreman was against Lyle.

Hagler truly had a great chin but did he ever have a guy like Robinson or Foreman just tee off on him like LaMotta and Chuvalo did? No, so his chin wasn't tested to the degree that LaMotta's or Chuvalo's was.

LaMotta or Chuvalo, take your pick. Those were the two most tested chins I can think of.

joeytrimble
04-27-2006, 11:45 AM
The people on the list are hilarious.Why is Ali on the list but not Foreman when Foreman had over 80 fights and only been down 4 times which is the same amount of times Ali been down but Ali had alot less fights.Not to mention Ali was hurt tons of times and Foreman was not.
Marciano was knocked down 2 times by one punch and the people he fought weren't really that skilled.Joe Grim was a bum and was knocked down tons of times he just got up most of the time and by the way he was knocked out a few times earlier in this career i read his story.
And stop watching "Raging Bull" Lamotta wasn't that damn tough.It was a freaking movie.Lamotta was hurt tons of times by weak punchers he just held on alot.Taking alot of punches from Ray Robinson is no big deal.Ray probably fought more bums in his career than any fighter who ever lived.
Chuvalo had a great chin and never been down but he was hust so many freaking times i can't even began to count them.David Tua never been down as a pro period or been hurt.Hagler was never hurt or down either (He went down from a slip but if you watched the fight you know it was just that a slip and not a knock down)
You people really need to learn your boxing and stop watching movies about fighters or going about what you heard.
And to the kid who said most of the fighters with great chins are italian..Then didn't you notice since the italian mafia lost control of boxing no italians have won a world title?Not to bash italians but italians are probably the most unskilled worthless fighters of all the races.I have seen great irish fighters boxing today.Polish,Russian,Black,Mexican,Puerto Rican.Normal american white,British,but where are the italians?There are none kid because they were only good at beating each other.
so by your rational ...every race of fighters are good except for itallians... and foreman hagler and tua have the greatest chins of all time.... oh and jake lamotta really isnt that tough

ok gotcha
here you might need this :bottle:

go watch ali foreman agian and maybe foreman might win :)

sleazyfellow
04-27-2006, 12:22 PM
ive seen normal american white b good fighter too!! what an idiot!!

Hous
04-27-2006, 12:58 PM
The people on the list are hilarious.Why is Ali on the list but not Foreman when Foreman had over 80 fights and only been down 4 times which is the same amount of times Ali been down but Ali had alot less fights.Not to mention Ali was hurt tons of times and Foreman was not.
Marciano was knocked down 2 times by one punch and the people he fought weren't really that skilled.Joe Grim was a bum and was knocked down tons of times he just got up most of the time and by the way he was knocked out a few times earlier in this career i read his story.
And stop watching "Raging Bull" Lamotta wasn't that damn tough.It was a freaking movie.Lamotta was hurt tons of times by weak punchers he just held on alot.Taking alot of punches from Ray Robinson is no big deal.Ray probably fought more bums in his career than any fighter who ever lived.
Chuvalo had a great chin and never been down but he was hust so many freaking times i can't even began to count them.David Tua never been down as a pro period or been hurt.Hagler was never hurt or down either (He went down from a slip but if you watched the fight you know it was just that a slip and not a knock down)
You people really need to learn your boxing and stop watching movies about fighters or going about what you heard.
And to the kid who said most of the fighters with great chins are italian..Then didn't you notice since the italian mafia lost control of boxing no italians have won a world title?Not to bash italians but italians are probably the most unskilled worthless fighters of all the races.I have seen great irish fighters boxing today.Polish,Russian,Black,Mexican,Puerto Rican.Normal american white,British,but where are the italians?There are none kid because they were only good at beating each other.

Why is he so offended by this? Does he realize these are the statistics from Ring Magezine?

Major racism about the Italian comment, but you do realize fought more black / Irish fighters than Italian. Just check out Marciano.

How many Mexican / Puerto Ricans have ever been in the heavyweight division? This isnt a P4P best chins list...

Maybe you should look at who these men fought and then compare their stats. Ali could have fought bums and never have been KDed, but he chose to fight the best, multiple times. Thats why he is in the top 10 best chins.

oldgringo
04-27-2006, 01:11 PM
Whether it's his fault or not is irrelevant, we're trying to find out who had the best chin. Obviously a guy who gets tagged a lot is going to be hurt more, dropped more, and appear to have a worse chin than a guy like James Toney who is rarely hit flush. People knock Gatti's chin because he's often staggered but if Toney took similar punishment in every fight you'd see him appear stunned and staggered more often too.

Foreman was not hit very often by big punchers early in his career and when he met one (Ron Lyle) we all saw what happened. His chin was not as good as Ali's, who took punishment from Lyle, Shavers, Frazier, Foreman etc and in spite of it all was never truly knocked out or even hurt as badly as Foreman was against Lyle.

Hagler truly had a great chin but did he ever have a guy like Robinson or Foreman just tee off on him like LaMotta and Chuvalo did? No, so his chin wasn't tested to the degree that LaMotta's or Chuvalo's was.

LaMotta or Chuvalo, take your pick. Those were the two most tested chins I can think of.


Uh...yeah he had Tommy HEarns sit there and tee off on him. Hearns, who I consider to be one of the 10 best punchers ever, hit him with everything he had...and Hagler walked right through him.

Mr. 26-0 (26) Mugabi hit Hagler with savage hooks and uppercuts and Hagler never flinched. These are the best punchers of HAglers day and class just completely nailing him, with 0 result.

As for James Toney...he has taken plenty of very hard punches from all kinds of punchers (Jones, Nunn, McCallum, Sosa, Jirov, Littles) all the way up to heavyweight. Of course we know he has good defense and does many things to take the steam off his opponents shots, but he still possess a steel chin. Not the greatest ever, but one of the best of the last 20 years or so. I've never seen him hurt once. Dropped? Yes...but he was fine and was just caught with a very good shot from a very underrated fighter.

Maybe I'm just not a fan of labeling some guy who knows he's going to get hit a million times as having the best chin.

hemichromis
04-28-2006, 05:22 AM
foreman had a great chin but the ali knockout will always be the way in which it is judged

ali had a better chin, anyone who doesn;t believe this should watch his fight against earnie shavers

Heckler
04-28-2006, 05:40 AM
Chuvalo, Lamotta, Ali.

fitz1888
04-28-2006, 06:56 PM
I'm pretty sure this is asking for the boxer with the hardest chin. I take that to mean not being knock down. Almost ever boxer will be hurt at some points in their career but i take having the hardest chin to mean not beinh knocked out and more improtantly not being knocked down. For this reason I say LaMotta - you can argue that Raging Bull making him look more tough than he was, but **** you try knocking that ****er down, your best bet would be in a car.

RockyMarcianofan00
04-29-2006, 07:00 PM
I'm pretty sure this is asking for the boxer with the hardest chin. I take that to mean not being knock down. Almost ever boxer will be hurt at some points in their career but i take having the hardest chin to mean not beinh knocked out and more improtantly not being knocked down. For this reason I say LaMotta - you can argue that Raging Bull making him look more tough than he was, but **** you try knocking that ****er down, your best bet would be in a car.


ha thats for sure

Stiv Rex
04-30-2006, 08:55 PM
its still not a real poll, wheres ray mercer??? hes in the top five, easy. he should be on the poll

Verstyle
04-30-2006, 08:59 PM
ali took alot of shorts from big time hitters

blockhead
04-30-2006, 09:32 PM
ali took alot of shorts from big time hitters
ali took a lot of shorts?!?!? i didnt know that.

chris_cov
05-01-2006, 06:28 AM
jake lamotta had the best chin iv ever seen. his fight with sugar ray robinson proved that.