View Full Version : Strongest fighter ever lived


Yaman
04-23-2006, 03:21 PM
From what i've read and watched on docu is that people say Jeffries was the strongest HW ever. George Foreman fought a lot of all time greats from a lot of eras and they said he was the strongest fighter they've ever faced. Holyfield was very strong for his size and background as a fighter.

Who would you say was the strongest?

Southpaw Stinger
04-23-2006, 03:25 PM
Foreman was strong. Marciano was also very strong for his size.

M26
04-23-2006, 03:31 PM
I have heard that James Jeffries was incredibly strong, so he might be the strongest of all time. Its hard to say though. I suppose Jeffries fought mainly smaller foes, and the things that have been written about him, might be exhagerated a bit.

George Foreman and Muhammad Ali definitely belongs up there as well.

6OVER6LORD6
04-23-2006, 03:57 PM
I have heard that James Jeffries was incredibly strong, so he might be the strongest of all time. Its hard to say though. I suppose Jeffries fought mainly smaller foes, and the things that have been written about him, might be exhagerated a bit.

George Foreman and Muhammad Ali definitely belongs up there as well.


did you just say muhammad ali belongs in the who's the strongest fighter list? Do you happen to be sniffing highlighters while eating glue under a powerline?

Yaman
04-23-2006, 04:04 PM
did you just say muhammad ali belongs in the who's the strongest fighter list? Do you happen to be sniffing highlighters while eating glue under a powerline?


Yeah, Ali was strong but nothing special about his strenght.

I think George Foreman was the strongest fighter ever lived.

Southpaw Stinger
04-23-2006, 04:57 PM
I think George Foreman was the strongest fighter ever lived.

I'd agree.

did you just say muhammad ali belongs in the who's the strongest fighter list? Do you happen to be sniffing highlighters while eating glue under a powerline?

You don't have to be a powerpuncher to be strong.

King Koyle
04-23-2006, 05:18 PM
John L. Sullivan ;)

BunniesLoveMe
04-23-2006, 05:21 PM
Mike Tyson.

RockyMarcianofan00
04-23-2006, 05:41 PM
depends what you mean strong

physically storng or hardest punch

if you mean hardest punch that definitely goes to guys like
Foreman
Frazier
Tyson
Marciano
Dempsey
etc

if you mean strongest punch
Foreman

guy with strongest two handed ko power
Tyson or Marciano

best left hook
Frazier
Dempsey is close behind though



but Foreman has had basically the strongest heavyweight punch

Oasis_Lad
04-23-2006, 05:42 PM
i think he means physical strength

id go with foreman

RockyMarcianofan00
04-23-2006, 05:46 PM
i think he means physical strength

id go with foreman
thats very possible
Foreman was big and always commanded a clinch

Dempsey 1919
04-23-2006, 05:51 PM
definetely foreman.

http://www.boxingscene.com/forums/showthread.php?t=70271

Azteca
04-23-2006, 11:35 PM
jeffrie's strength is somewhat of a myth and overated. at the time, he was much, much larger then any of his opponents because at the time (1900's) the average height/weight was much lower then it his today. i have seen pictures of him, and the only thing that stood out from me was his thighs. he had a very primitive body, but his thighs stuck out. they were very huge and very musculer.

overall i'd say foreman's strength was just astounding. prime foreman was 220 which is pretty amazing if you think about it. my best guess would be that he was naturally strong - because even artificially (holyfield) you coudln't get much stronger then big george.

LondonRingRules
04-24-2006, 12:16 AM
I'd go with Valuev. Ruiz couldn't budge him and goes 240 or so and has been big and strong enough to handle Golota and Rahman in clinches.

Foreman and Jeffries are good picks as are Willard and Vitali. Sam Peter is incredibly strong, maybe the strongest today next to Valuev, but Wlad was able to handle him, an indication of Wlad's strength.

Pugnacious_Z
04-24-2006, 01:30 AM
stop mentioning hard hitters, this is about physical strength and theres no real way to know who was stronger. handling someone in a clinch doesnt mean ur stronger physically, it means ur at clinching, you cud look at strength in lifting things or u cud look at it in wrestling strength, there are all different types of strength. some guy might not be good at clinches but be real good at lifting things becoz they have very strong backs. so ye it depends

Azteca
04-24-2006, 01:32 AM
Valuev? your kidding right

Foreman was natrually a hard hitter thats why he could get away with having big arms and not be sluggish because he was natrually big

Foreman is the hardest hitter IMO

no, son, he's not. he does have a point though. i must say, in the past, i have had a problem with glorifying the old timers.

valuev might just be the strongest because he has genetics, evolution, and technology on his sisde.

RockyMarcianofan00
04-24-2006, 01:44 AM
alright i deleted my message because i did infact mention punching power instead of physical strength but i still tend to lean toward foreman as a phsically strongest

Valuev is just big but that doesn't mean he's the strongest, it isd true if your taller you'll probably be able to command in a clinch better but his size doesn't make him the strongest

but thats just my opinion

i think if your talking about lifting stuff up weight wise i'd say tyson because he was big and strong, so was foreman though

Tyson didn't always command a clinch but he could pick "heavy things up"

Ali also had good physical strength in his back and he was good in a clinch

(i'm just using the clinch as example)

so :boxing:

Southpaw16
04-24-2006, 02:13 AM
I think that Foreman is probably a good guess. However, I think that in terms of pure physical strength, some modern guys from the superheavyweight era such as Lennox Lewis and Vitali Klitschko should be thrown into the mix. Rahman and Sam Peter are also very physically strong. But yeah, I would also go with Foreman in the end.

Schifoso
04-24-2006, 02:15 AM
Tyson was squatting 500+ out of prison.

Azteca
04-24-2006, 02:19 AM
tyson's strength out of prison was artificial. he was on steroids.

Schifoso
04-24-2006, 02:20 AM
tyson's strength out of prison was artificial. he was on steroids.
No he wasn't, he just had nothing better to do than to pump while in prison. Everyone who spends 3 years in there pumps like crazy.

oliverlt
04-24-2006, 02:21 AM
Tyson was squatting 500+ out of prison.


He'd have to squat more than that I could do 450 in high school

Schifoso
04-24-2006, 02:22 AM
He'd have to squat more than that I could do 450 in high school
Do you want someone weighing 230 to squat 800 pounds? :rolleyes:

Yogi
04-24-2006, 02:36 AM
No he wasn't, he just had nothing better to do than to pump while in prison. Everyone who spends 3 years in there pumps like crazy.

Apparently Tyson was the exception to your "everyone" rule, because, if you can remember (specifically the interview that a thinner/less muscular Tyson gave while nearing the end of his prison term), Tyson lost quite a bit of weight/muscle mass while inside...

"It was not only Tyson's fortune that shrank. The man who walked free from prison looked a shadow of the 238-pound colossus who was handcuffed and led away to the cells in March 1992. He had kept himself fit in the prison gymnasium with daily workouts, but the awesome physique that used to promote fear in his opponents was much reduced." - 'The Release of Power' by Reg Gutteridge

Azteca
04-24-2006, 02:37 AM
No he wasn't, he just had nothing better to do than to pump while in prison. Everyone who spends 3 years in there pumps like crazy.
after prison, tyson's look was much different than pre prison. when he was in his prime, he was muscular, but he didn't have the body builder look that he had post prison.

Yaman
04-24-2006, 07:07 AM
P4P Holyfield might be the strongest. He was a cruiserweight and he pushed Tyson away and even Lennox Lewis! He couldn't do anything like that to Foreman though.

hemichromis
04-24-2006, 07:29 AM
i hear alot about jeffries i read somewhere he did his roadwork with a deer on his back but i havent seen any proof of this

from what i have seen it must be foreman

6OVER6LORD6
04-24-2006, 07:36 AM
he did it with a calf, not a deer

THE REAL NINJA
04-24-2006, 10:51 AM
ok um Primo Carnera was a circus strong man before boxing. He was 6'5 260-275 prime. He was not the best boxer ever ;) but without a doubt one of the strongest fighters of all time

Pugnacious_Z
04-24-2006, 11:25 AM
this thread should not be called, "strongest fighter who every lived", it shud be called strongest champ who ever lived coz every1 is naming champs. there might be boxers who are physical beasts but were just crap at boxing so they never got their name up there, like Mariusz Pudzianowski who used to be an amateur boxer and if thats the case, hes the strongest. But if you just include the top guys i wud have to say Valuev. No boxer in the history of boxing wud be able to push away or move around valuev in a clinch, NONE. he cud just stay there and no1 cud push him, hes over 300lbs

Schifoso
04-24-2006, 11:33 AM
Apparently Tyson was the exception to your "everyone" rule, because, if you can remember (specifically the interview that a thinner/less muscular Tyson gave while nearing the end of his prison term), Tyson lost quite a bit of weight/muscle mass while inside...

"It was not only Tyson's fortune that shrank. The man who walked free from prison looked a shadow of the 238-pound colossus who was handcuffed and led away to the cells in March 1992. He had kept himself fit in the prison gymnasium with daily workouts, but the awesome physique that used to promote fear in his opponents was much reduced." - 'The Release of Power' by Reg Gutteridge
His last fight was at 216 before prison, when he came out he was 220 and looked a lot bulkier than the lean muscle he naturally had. I'm sure everyone agrees.

THE REAL NINJA
04-24-2006, 12:35 PM
this thread should not be called, "strongest fighter who every lived", it shud be called strongest champ who ever lived coz every1 is naming champs. there might be boxers who are physical beasts but were just crap at boxing so they never got their name up there, like Mariusz Pudzianowski who used to be an amateur boxer and if thats the case, hes the strongest. But if you just include the top guys i wud have to say Valuev. No boxer in the history of boxing wud be able to push away or move around valuev in a clinch, NONE. he cud just stay there and no1 cud push him, hes over 300lbs
yeah so was arnold schwarzenegger but if we start on that then names pop up that only a few of us know ;) ...trust me i've tryed before with the "it's some guy we never heard of" no one seems to get it

Yogi
04-24-2006, 12:55 PM
His last fight was at 216 before prison, when he came out he was 220 and looked a lot bulkier than the lean muscle he naturally had. I'm sure everyone agrees.

Yeah well, you see you're taking his weight from a fight that happened five months after his release from prison (he was released on March 25th of that year, and fought McNeely on Aug 19th...PLENTY of time to increase one's size quite significantly via the use of steroids), so how he looked or what he weighed for that fight has nothing to do with how Tyson looked when he was inside prison (the interview that they did of him in there DOES show a thinner and less muscular Mike Tyson, as does a photo I have of him being lead in handcuffs with a caption underneath it saying "he went to the Appeal Court in 1994") or when he first "came out" of prison (which Tyson's own & very first biographer describes in that quote I gave up above).

Whatever he did to get his weight back up to around the 220 (which, give or take a pound or two, was right around what he always weighed during most of his pro career), it doesn't change how he looked while in prison and on his immediate release...which was that of a thinner & less muscular man than what he looked like during his fights up to that point in time.

Kid Achilles
04-24-2006, 01:21 PM
Really, Valuev might be up there. He has a HUGE frame, kind of like what Andre the Giant would look like if he dropped down to boxing shape. If we're talking about boxing strength, which correlates to pushing, pulling, and shoving in the clinches, Valuev might be one of the strongest.

Jeffries is up there though, certainly stronger than Tyson who was shoved away into the ropes by a soft Peter McNeely. For his era, Jeffries was a physical anomaly. Foreman came along at a time when nutrition was much better and fighters weighed, on average, more than they did in the early 1900's, so his 220 pounds does not impress me nearly as much as Jeffries's rock solid 220 pounds which was also after he had trimmed down, running 10-15 miles every morning which was just the begining of a training program that would put James Toney in the hostpital. To put things in perspective, Foreman claimed he never ran more than 3 miles at a stretch before his second career in the late 80's/early 90's. Jeffries was just a beast and impressed the world's best catch wrestlers of the time, such as Farmer Burns, with his strength and aptitude for grappling. The guy was an exceptional athlete and had the physical gifts to excel in most sports. It's too bad he isn't around now for the UFC and Pride.

M26
04-24-2006, 01:28 PM
did you just say muhammad ali belongs in the who's the strongest fighter list? Do you happen to be sniffing highlighters while eating glue under a powerline?

I firmly consider Muhammad Ali among the strongest fighters of all time. Notice, I am saying STRONGEST, not the hardest hitter. Ali was never pushed around by anyone, and could hold his own even when facing George Foreman.

All in all, I would say Foreman is the strongest, but Ali was right up there with him. :boxing:

Yaman
04-24-2006, 01:35 PM
I firmly consider Muhammad Ali among the strongest fighters of all time. Notice, I am saying STRONGEST, not the hardest hitter. Ali was never pushed around by anyone, and could hold his own even when facing George Foreman.

All in all, I would say Foreman is the strongest, but Ali was right up there with him. :boxing:

Really? I remember something diffirent, Foreman pushing Alis head back all over the ropes and pounding him(And all those other countless times he was pushed in the corner). If he was up there with him he would've been able to hold his own when Foreman wasn't tired.

Kid Achilles
04-24-2006, 01:39 PM
I don't remember Ali pushing Foreman around when he was fresh, just holding his head down when he was fatigued. Ali was very strong but he was not in Foreman's league.

Yogi
04-24-2006, 01:41 PM
Jeffries was just a beast and impressed the world's best catch wrestlers of the time, such as Farmer Burns, with his strength and aptitude for grappling. The guy was an exceptional athlete and had the physical gifts to excel in most sports. It's too bad he isn't around now for the UFC and Pride.

"I'm just glad Jim sticks to boxing as a profession." - so said the great Frank Gotch (quite possibly the greatest catch-as-catch-can wrestler of all-time and is given that position by a number of sportswriters of the early days...including Nat Fleischer, who was also a big wrestling fan) when asked what he thought of Jeffries' grappling abilities after spending some time on the mat with him

Kid Achilles
04-24-2006, 01:45 PM
That's the quote I was looking for, and it says it all. Thanks Yogi. Jeffries was born in the wrong time as I think MMA really would have suited him even better than boxing. Though it's also quite likely Jeffries would still choose boxing today as it's where the big money is.

JDizzle79
04-24-2006, 01:48 PM
I say Frank Bruno

Yogi
04-24-2006, 01:55 PM
That's the quote I was looking for, and it says it all. Thanks Yogi. Jeffries was born in the wrong time as I think MMA really would have suited him even better than boxing. Though it's also quite likely Jeffries would still choose boxing today as it's where the big money is.

I have an excellant & very detailed article on Farmer Burns that was published in the May 2000 issue of 'Grappling', and while browsing it I was hoping to find some info on Jeffries in it. But not much beyond the mention of Burns training with him on occasion, and then the article immediately goes into describing a sreet fight that was said to have taken place between Burns and the former middleweight champion, Billy Papke.

Kid Achilles
04-24-2006, 03:14 PM
But not much beyond the mention of Burns training with him on occasion, and then the article immediately goes into describing a sreet fight that was said to have taken place between Burns and the former middleweight champion, Billy Papke.

How was that one said to have ended?

Yogi
04-24-2006, 03:40 PM
How was that one said to have ended?

From that article;

"While in training camp in Reno, Nevada, Burns got into a heated debate with another trainer, who just happened to be Billy Papke, a former middleweight champion. Burns, in his 50's, was much older than Papke, but the Farmer decided that the two should settle their argument in an all-out street fight. Papke took a few swings, then Burns took him down and submitted him, making him cry 'Uncle'."

I've also spoke to someone else about this in the past and tried to get a different version of what happened (seeing as this was a Burns article and you know...I thought that it may have been bias in his favour), and the final result of what happened seems to have been consistent with what he read from a few other sources (the fight was said to have lasted only about 15 to 20 seconds). The hold that submitted Papke on that occasion has been written as either a ankle lock or some kind of heel hook...some type of foot lock, anyways.

Dempsey 1919
04-24-2006, 03:51 PM
From that article;

"While in training camp in Reno, Nevada, Burns got into a heated debate with another trainer, who just happened to be Billy Papke, a former middleweight champion. Burns, in his 50's, was much older than Papke, but the Farmer decided that the two should settle their argument in an all-out street fight. Papke took a few swings, then Burns took him down and submitted him, making him cry 'Uncle'."

I've also spoke to someone else about this in the past and tried to get a different version of what happened (seeing as this was a Burns article and you know...I thought that it may have been bias in his favour), and the final result of what happened seems to have been consistent with what he read from a few other sources (the fight was said to have lasted only about 15 to 20 seconds). The hold that submitted Papke on that occasion has been written as either a ankle lock or some kind of heel hook...some type of foot lock, anyways.

hmmm, interesting.

http://www.boxingscene.com/forums/showthread.php?t=70271&page=4&pp=10

Yogi
04-24-2006, 03:52 PM
hmmm, interesting.

http://www.boxingscene.com/forums/showthread.php?t=70271&page=4&pp=10

Why are you giving me that link?

Dempsey 1919
04-24-2006, 03:53 PM
Why are you giving me that link?

just click on it. ;)

Yogi
04-24-2006, 03:54 PM
just click on it. ;)

I did already...What?

RockyMarcianofan00
04-24-2006, 05:04 PM
after prison, tyson's look was much different than pre prison. when he was in his prime, he was muscular, but he didn't have the body builder look that he had post prison.
yea

before prison
http://www.instantreplaysportcard.com/items/8x10s/tyson.jpg


after prison (this later though because as you can see he is muscular here)
http://planete.qc.ca/images/showbiz/mike%20tyson.JPG

SquareCircle
04-24-2006, 05:44 PM
Tye Fields is stronger than Foreman

but his boxing technique is ugly because of all those years pumping iron

Dempsey 1919
04-24-2006, 06:39 PM
ali is pretty damn strong. he even managed to outmuscle foreman at times so you know he has strength.

aljon
04-24-2006, 11:36 PM
Foreman is the strongest, he did some crazy excercize like pulling cars and lifting cows that ive seen in a vid.

-Antonio-
04-25-2006, 02:28 AM
Foreman said he got a lot of his strength from chopping wood while he was growing up. I saw videos of him pulling a car too. The man is just blessed when it comes to strength. Just look at the way he punches. The punches look slow and he uses barely any body leverage, yet he knocks people out.

Dempsey 1919
04-25-2006, 02:33 AM
Foreman is the strongest, he did some crazy excercize like pulling cars and lifting cows that ive seen in a vid.

do you think you could upload it for us to see?

HELLRAZAH
04-25-2006, 03:04 AM
tommy morrison was very strong, didnt he used to lie about his age to get into strong man contests against men

hemichromis
04-25-2006, 03:42 PM
ali was strong stronger than alot of fighters but he rarely used his strength

foreman was still alot stronger than him though

Dempsey 1919
04-25-2006, 03:50 PM
if you want a sample of foreman's strength, then just watch foreman-kirkman, lol! :D

aljon
04-25-2006, 06:00 PM
do you think you could upload it for us to see?
sure my man, http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6045286431650106346&q=george+foreman&pl=true this is a short one I dont remember where I saw this long vid of him but you get the idea

K-DOGG
04-25-2006, 06:07 PM
Foreman was strong, no doubt; but I have to go with Jeffries. The man was a mountain.

Yaman
04-25-2006, 06:09 PM
Foreman was strong, no doubt; but I have to go with Jeffries. The man was a mountain.

How much footage is there of this fighter? And i doubt his opponents were that strong either because they were from other weight classes aswell.

K-DOGG
04-25-2006, 06:29 PM
How much footage is there of this fighter? And i doubt his opponents were that strong either because they were from other weight classes aswell.

There's not that much footage of him in his prime that I'm aware of...all I've seen of him in the ring besides the Johnson disaster was his 20 round war against Tom Sharkey. He was a modern sized heavyweight and was incredibly stong and fast (sprint-wise). The most famous story is of him going hunting and haveing to carry a buck on his shoulders for 5 miles without stopping to rest. He build up his huge frame by being a "boiler-maker" before he turned pro. Read up on him sometimes.

Also, I am of the belief that men from that era were naturally stronger due to the hard lifestyle they had to live. People today have hard times; but nothing like what it was like back then. Jeffries definetly gets my vote.

Kid Achilles
04-25-2006, 06:49 PM
The average person is much weaker nowadays and continues to grow weaker with each passing generation as we grow less and less dependant on our bodies to survive and more on technology. Weightlifting does not compensate for a sedentary, soft lifestyle. Take your local ox from the gym who benches 400 pounds and put him on a construction site pouring foundations, or in a mine, and he will be lucky to last the day at a moderate pace.

People want easy fixes and weight lifting seems to provide that. Work hard for an hour or so a few times a week and you're good. You will get strong in certain movement and you will get much bigger. It sounds great, but it's no substitute for hours of hard work a day. That's the way you build an iron constitution.

The old timers were very active, running many miles in the early morning in addition to hitting the bag, sparring, doing calisthenics, and even wrestling. They were physical men who spend the majority of the day in motion. Today's top fighter trains maybe 3-4 hours a day and then plays video games or goes out clubbing. Physical he looks great because of the superior knowledge we have of diet and training to reduce bodyfat and look good but, relatively speaking, he is much lazier than the workhorses of a hundred years ago, and his stamina is worse.

K-DOGG
04-25-2006, 06:57 PM
The average person is much weaker nowadays and continues to grow weaker with each passing generation as we grow less and less dependant on our bodies to survive and more on technology. Weightlifting does not compensate for a sedentary, soft lifestyle. Take your local ox from the gym who benches 400 pounds and put him on a construction site pouring foundations, or in a mine, and he will be lucky to last the day at a moderate pace.

People want easy fixes and weight lifting seems to provide that. Work hard for an hour or so a few times a week and you're good. You will get strong in certain movement and you will get much bigger. It sounds great, but it's no substitute for hours of hard work a day. That's the way you build an iron constitution.

The old timers were very active, running many miles in the early morning in addition to hitting the bag, sparring, doing calisthenics, and even wrestling. They were physical men who spend the majority of the day in motion. Today's top fighter trains maybe 3-4 hours a day and then plays video games or goes out clubbing. Physical he looks great because of the superior knowledge we have of diet and training to reduce bodyfat and look good but, relatively speaking, he is much lazier than the workhorses of a hundred years ago, and his stamina is worse.

Kid....nobody could have said it better than you just did. Props and karma.

Past m' Prime
04-25-2006, 09:59 PM
I have to agree with the KID, pumping video games is not the same as a lifetime of hard work. If you look at the old time greats they all had damn tough jobs prior to fighting. Primo Carnera was huge and a circus strongman before he became a fighter so I assume he was better than average. As for punching power, either Marciano or George Foreman. Personally I don't think Foreman hit more than one guy flush, and its probably a good thing.

Verstyle
04-25-2006, 10:24 PM
His last fight was at 216 before prison, when he came out he was 220 and looked a lot bulkier than the lean muscle he naturally had. I'm sure everyone agrees.


u sure about 220? cause i heard he was hitting close to 300 when he got outta prison cause he couldnt maintain a proper diet

Verstyle
04-25-2006, 10:31 PM
yea

before prison
http://www.instantreplaysportcard.com/items/8x10s/tyson.jpg


after prison (this later though because as you can see he is muscular here)
http://planete.qc.ca/images/showbiz/mike%20tyson.JPG


man oh man. i thought u were smarter then that. obviously ppl know when tyson came back from prison he didnt nearly fight as much as he used to in the 80s,he started reducing his fights to one a year. which means he doesnt have to be in the gym as much as he used to especially when he was with rooney. so what im tryin to say is i guess when the later years progressed he had to stay in the gym alot to have the physical features he had int he 80s. plus when ever he did fight most of the time u saw he was in shape. oh yeah plsu tyson is ****in flexin in that picture while delivering a shot. and the second pic tyson jus has a gut

Kid Achilles
04-26-2006, 01:44 AM
No Tyson definitely got smaller in prison. It was sometime after he got out of prison and in between fights that he began to blow up to almost 300 pounds, but if I recall that was due to some medication he was taking at the time.

Heckler
04-26-2006, 10:01 AM
Foreman, jeffries was up there. Ali was definately strong, people assume that because he couldn't hit particulary hard for a Heavyweight he was weak... he definately was not shown by his ability to tie Liston up at will and his ability to smother and stop Foreman in his tracks on various ocassions in 74' Without a doubt Foreman was the stronger man. There is a difference between functional strength and the strength often developed by those who lift weights. Im sure Tyson could bench more then Holyfield or Ali but i don't consider him the stronger man at all.

Pugnacious_Z
04-26-2006, 11:58 AM
all you guys talk as if bodybuilders are weak or something. have you guys ever wresteled with a guy who lifted alot of weights? i have and let me tell you they are ****ing strong, very strong grip and push you around easily, its very functional strength

Kid Achilles
04-26-2006, 12:22 PM
When I was in highschool I was playing around with this kid outside in gym class, who was about ten pounds heavier than me and bench pressing much more than I was putting up at the time (I think I could bench 190 and he was doing something in the 280 range) and I was pushing him back without much trouble. He could kill me in arm wrestling but in terms of full body strength I had no problem with him.

I wasn't even a bit weight nut, I just benched and did work on our little farm, carrying hay bales upspairs into the loft in the barn, shoveling ****, pushing a heavy overloaded wheelbarrow up hill in snow and mud to dump it etc.

Yaman
04-26-2006, 01:08 PM
Tyson had small calves compared to his huge legs. He was not the strongest fighter.

But bodybuilders are a lot stronger than any strong guy who works a lot. Back in the day i couldn't do that many push ups, but when i started weight lifting i could do a lot of push ups with ease. Fighters who start weight lifting are definitely gonna get stronger.

XionComrade
04-26-2006, 04:16 PM
this thread should not be called, "strongest fighter who every lived", it shud be called strongest champ who ever lived coz every1 is naming champs. there might be boxers who are physical beasts but were just crap at boxing so they never got their name up there, like Mariusz Pudzianowski who used to be an amateur boxer and if thats the case, hes the strongest. But if you just include the top guys i wud have to say Valuev. No boxer in the history of boxing wud be able to push away or move around valuev in a clinch, NONE. he cud just stay there and no1 cud push him, hes over 300lbs

George Foreman is Deffinently stronger than Mariusz Pudjianowski, Mariusz isn't really that strong...His workout is on the MetRx site.

Hous
04-26-2006, 06:08 PM
George Foreman is Deffinently stronger than Mariusz Pudjianowski, Mariusz isn't really that strong...His workout is on the MetRx site.

You are by far the stupidest person on these forums, Mariusz Pudzianowski is one of the strongest men on earth, easily 3 times stronger than George Foreman.

Mariusz Pudzianowski was a proffessional boxer as well as a Worlds Strongest Man, not a body builder but the guys you see lifting record breaking weights...

http://www.arnoldsstrongestman.com/pudzian_TIR_-_mistrzostwa_swiata.jpg

Show me a pic of GF towing a bus or pulling a bus with nothing but his arms...

http://www.strongman.pl/zdjecia/news_132_01.jpg

Maybe you are just confused about who Mariusz Pudzianowski is.

God I hope you are.

RockyMarcianofan00
04-26-2006, 06:16 PM
the guy looks to big to be a boxer IMO

Verstyle
04-26-2006, 06:31 PM
You are by far the stupidest person on these forums, Mariusz Pudzianowski is one of the strongest men on earth, easily 3 times stronger than George Foreman.

Mariusz Pudzianowski was a proffessional boxer as well as a Worlds Strongest Man, not a body builder but the guys you see lifting record breaking weights...

http://www.arnoldsstrongestman.com/pudzian_TIR_-_mistrzostwa_swiata.jpg

Show me a pic of GF towing a bus or pulling a bus with nothing but his arms...

http://www.strongman.pl/zdjecia/news_132_01.jpg

Maybe you are just confused about who Mariusz Pudzianowski is.

God I hope you are.

i think they mean strong in bullying ppl around in the ring

Hous
04-26-2006, 06:44 PM
i think they mean strong in bullying ppl around in the ring

Every post has been about physically strong or hardest punch, it could go both ways.

IDC as I wasn't involved until someone said Foreman was stronger than that guy while the guy who brought him up was talking about physical strength.

Muscles alone dont make the boxer.

Yaman
04-26-2006, 06:58 PM
That guy is no damn boxer.

Dempsey 1919
04-26-2006, 07:04 PM
That guy is no damn boxer.

yeah, that's the truth!!

http://www.boxingscene.com/forums/showthread.php?t=70271&page=6&pp=10

Hous
04-26-2006, 08:32 PM
That guy is no damn boxer.

LOL, Im with you he probley lost alot but he was a boxer.

Aside from being a world-class strength athlete, Mariusz maintains his agility, conditioning, and general physical preparedness through other athletic endeavors. He is an exponent of Kyokushin karate (fourth kyu), which he has been practicing since the age of 11. He was also a competitive boxer for seven years, three of which were spent in the Kosedowski League. Mariusz is a favorite in every Strongman competition he enters, having been defeated only twice in Poland through 2002, and his worst placing being a respectable second.

I guess his gift in lifting things (STEROID USE) overshadowed his boxing career.

RockyMarcianofan00
04-26-2006, 08:33 PM
LOL, Im with you he probley lost alot but he was a boxer.



I guess his gift in lifting things (STEROID USE) overshadowed his boxing career.
boxrec.com

Pugnacious_Z
04-27-2006, 05:45 AM
hey kid achilles, i believe that some guys lift weights and are still weak in full body activites but let me tell u this, right now if you start lifting weights, you will be stronger then you are now, its a fact. some guys are just weak naturally and when they bodybuild there still weak compared to most ppl but they are stronger then what they used to be. but get me any man in the world and let him start doing big compound excercises and gain muscle all around his body and no doubt he will be alot stronger. NO DOUBT

tommyhearns804
04-27-2006, 06:21 AM
Based on logic at heavyweight it would be Foreman.Not only did people like Holyfield who fought the Tyson's,Lewis,Bowe ect ect ect say Foreman was the strongest he faced Foreman was also the only one who push Holyfield around the ring and Foreman fought a prime Holyfield who never lost.
Foreman was the only heavyweight i seen who was never really man handled.He is the only heavyweight who always came forward even against other fighters who were punchers he always made them go backward.
And i seen Foreman pull a jeep up a hill..sure it isnt as big as that bus but i am sure that is Foreman spent his life lifting weights and taking drugs to become stronger he would do the same..

leff
04-27-2006, 07:25 AM
hmmm ive seen Mariusz Pudzianowski do some bagwork and i known he about 80 amatur fights but that was before he got so bulky.

dont think he ever went pro

Hunna
04-27-2006, 08:03 AM
You are by far the stupidest person on these forums, Mariusz Pudzianowski is one of the strongest men on earth, easily 3 times stronger than George Foreman.

Mariusz Pudzianowski was a proffessional boxer as well as a Worlds Strongest Man, not a body builder but the guys you see lifting record breaking weights...

http://www.arnoldsstrongestman.com/pudzian_TIR_-_mistrzostwa_swiata.jpg

Show me a pic of GF towing a bus or pulling a bus with nothing but his arms...

http://www.strongman.pl/zdjecia/news_132_01.jpg

Maybe you are just confused about who Mariusz Pudzianowski is.

God I hope you are.

GF wouldnt eating any of those strong man anyway, atcually he would of grilled them.

Hous
04-27-2006, 02:05 PM
Based on logic at heavyweight it would be Foreman.Not only did people like Holyfield who fought the Tyson's,Lewis,Bowe ect ect ect say Foreman was the strongest he faced Foreman was also the only one who push Holyfield around the ring and Foreman fought a prime Holyfield who never lost.
Foreman was the only heavyweight i seen who was never really man handled.He is the only heavyweight who always came forward even against other fighters who were punchers he always made them go backward.
And i seen Foreman pull a jeep up a hill..sure it isnt as big as that bus but i am sure that is Foreman spent his life lifting weights and taking drugs to become stronger he would do the same..

You dont know if he took steriods or not...

Why are you backing Foreman in every thread, the greatest chin thread, but your name is Tommy Hearns and your caption mentions Tyson?

jabsRstiff
04-27-2006, 02:17 PM
Jeff Fenech, lb4lb, was one of the strongest fighters in history.
From bantammweight up until Jr. Light......he manhandled his foes, pushing & bullying them around the ring like they were children.
He was an animal.

oldgringo
04-27-2006, 02:36 PM
Jeff Fenech, lb4lb, was one of the strongest fighters in history.
From bantammweight up until Jr. Light......he manhandled his foes, pushing & bullying them around the ring like they were children.
He was an animal.


Great call on that. Fenech was so much stronger than everyone he fought it was insane. That guy was a prize fighter from day one.

Until he took on my boy of course...who also deserves a mention (zoom zoom that is). Nelson was one of the strongest smaller fighters I've ever seen. He was an ox at 130.

Ike Quartey was also unbelievably strong at welterweight. Too bad it made him ****y.

Kid Achilles
04-27-2006, 02:47 PM
P4P we should also mention Gene Fullmer and Dick Tiger.

jabsRstiff
04-27-2006, 02:49 PM
Carlos Monzon was extremely strong, especially considering you don't expect guys with his build to be able to strong arm foes.

jabsRstiff
04-27-2006, 02:51 PM
Great call on that. Fenech was so much stronger than everyone he fought it was insane. That guy was a prize fighter from day one.

Until he took on my boy of course...who also deserves a mention (zoom zoom that is). Nelson was one of the strongest smaller fighters I've ever seen. He was an ox at 130.

Ike Quartey was also unbelievably strong at welterweight. Too bad it made him ****y.


Nelson just proved to be superior to Fenech, all around. Like the true great he was, he adapted to Fenech for fight #2- & buried him.

LoftyDog
04-27-2006, 03:19 PM
I'd have to say Hoskins is the strongest, no matter how you look at it. :D

Dempsey 1919
04-27-2006, 03:40 PM
Based on logic at heavyweight it would be Foreman.Not only did people like Holyfield who fought the Tyson's,Lewis,Bowe ect ect ect say Foreman was the strongest he faced Foreman was also the only one who push Holyfield around the ring and Foreman fought a prime Holyfield who never lost.
Foreman was the only heavyweight i seen who was never really man handled.He is the only heavyweight who always came forward even against other fighters who were punchers he always made them go backward.
And i seen Foreman pull a jeep up a hill..sure it isnt as big as that bus but i am sure that is Foreman spent his life lifting weights and taking drugs to become stronger he would do the same..

I've never really seen muhammad ali really manhandled either. even by foreman.

Southpaw Stinger
04-27-2006, 03:43 PM
I've never really seen muhammad ali really manhandled either. even by foreman.

You can't really push a man back who's already on the ropes!

Dempsey 1919
04-27-2006, 03:48 PM
You can't really push a man back who's already on the ropes!

even off the ropes ali held his own in terms of strength.

Yaman
04-27-2006, 04:03 PM
even off the ropes ali held his own in terms of strength.

Nah man, Foreman pushed his body all over the ropes and Ali couldn't do anything. But in the later rounds when Foreman got tired, wich is when you loose strenght, Ali held his own.

Dempsey 1919
04-27-2006, 04:06 PM
Nah man, Foreman pushed his body all over the ropes and Ali couldn't do anything. But in the later rounds when Foreman got tired, wich is when you loose strenght, Ali held his own.

i'm not saying ali is stronger than foreman, but IMO he is top 5 of strongest boxers in history. one of his trainers put him on an insane workout regimen of calisthenics when he was 18, and that's why he went from like 185 to 210 in like 3 years! no weights, no steroids just regular calisthenics, and that's why he became so strong! for his size, he strength was crazy!

XionComrade
04-27-2006, 04:30 PM
Every post has been about physically strong or hardest punch, it could go both ways.

IDC as I wasn't involved until someone said Foreman was stronger than that guy while the guy who brought him up was talking about physical strength.

Muscles alone dont make the boxer.

Well Hasim Rahman can bench over 600lbs, Foreman is quite the bit stronger if not alot stronger than Rahman...Foreman is a bear machine. Mariusz Pudzianowski is not that strong, seriously, look at his workout...Pudzianowski's Workout (http://www.metrx.com/Athletes.aspx?WebID=56823ae4-1dc4-4265-a7b2-33bdcc250644)

Hous
04-27-2006, 04:47 PM
Well Hasim Rahman can bench over 600lbs, Foreman is quite the bit stronger if not alot stronger than Rahman...Foreman is a bear machine. Mariusz Pudzianowski is not that strong, seriously, look at his workout...Pudzianowski's Workout (http://www.metrx.com/Athletes.aspx?WebID=56823ae4-1dc4-4265-a7b2-33bdcc250644)

That doesn't prove anything as it says at the age of 16 he was benching 353 and at 18 452. So yeah he is stronger than Foreman because at that time he wasn't even into boxing.

It also says he did the walk of the lumberman which is carrying 400lbs across a field, it takes more muscle to walk with the weight.

Also its only "rumored" that Hasim Rahman can bench press more than twice of his bodyweight, its said be around 500lbs not 600lbs. He wieghs like 238.

All of that before he was even a worlds strongest man, how can you think for an instant that Foreman was physically stronger?

This Maurice guy, or whatever, had a record of 606lb on bench, I think the world record is like 1050 by some farmer in the midwest.

XionComrade
04-27-2006, 04:50 PM
Foreman is a Machine, I still say he is stronger than Mariusz.

oldgringo
04-27-2006, 06:05 PM
Nelson just proved to be superior to Fenech, all around. Like the true great he was, he adapted to Fenech for fight #2- & buried him.


I wonder if he really was badly affected by malaria in their first bout. He said he was suffering against Whitaker from it too (I believe in the second Fenech post fight interview).

No way can I see him beating Whitaker, but I wonder if he could have fought him a little bit closer.

The_One77
04-27-2006, 07:50 PM
Lennox Lewis was pretty damn strong

Pugnacious_Z
04-28-2006, 05:39 AM
Foreman is a Machine, I still say he is stronger than Mariusz.

get your head out of your ****ing ass, mariusz would literally throw around a Prime Foreman which weighed 220lbs. mariusz is like 290 pounds and 6ft tall while Foreman was 220lbs and 6ft 3. Foreman was just a boxer, which meant he was real good at punching, ofcoarse the STRONGEST MAN IN THE WORLD will be ALOT stronger then a guy who didnt lift weights. And i mean throw him around in a wrestling match, not a boxing match, cause a boxing match isnt about physical strength.

hemichromis
04-28-2006, 06:03 AM
what about the difference between natural strength and strength from weightlifting i can and do easily overpower a guy who can bench almost 600lbs hes more than twice as strong as me in the gym and yet in the ring i am stronger

hemichromis
04-28-2006, 06:04 AM
ali was strong but he was also smart, he didn't try to overpower foreman because it is pointless however when ali needed to he could tie up foreman or liston quite easily

Heckler
04-28-2006, 06:45 AM
Lennox Lewis was pretty damn strong

Lennox Lewis was pretty damn big. For his size i personally think his strength was average, he could not muscle Holyfield around the ring... then again Holyfield is extremely strong for his size.

Pugnacious_Z
04-29-2006, 12:11 AM
what about the difference between natural strength and strength from weightlifting i can and do easily overpower a guy who can bench almost 600lbs hes more than twice as strong as me in the gym and yet in the ring i am stronger

hey mate, what do u think natural strength is? srsly, do u think its some type of magical power or something. the reason why your overpowering this 600lb bencher in the ring is coz he prob sux at boxing and gets tired eeasly therefore you can push him around. go against that guy in a wrestling match and then you'll see how quick hell put u down. and one more thing, benching is only chest and tri muscles, doesnt mean the person is stronger then u coz he benches more. you have to see overall strength like legs, back, shoulders and core

LondonRingRules
04-29-2006, 01:38 AM
I've never really seen muhammad ali really manhandled either. even by foreman.
** Then I suggest you watch his Foreman fight because Foreman punched Ali all around the ring and brutalized him against the ropes.

Dempsey 1919
04-29-2006, 02:13 AM
** Then I suggest you watch his Foreman fight because Foreman punched Ali all around the ring and brutalized him against the ropes.

i'm talking about in terms of outmuscling him in the clinches.

Kid Achilles
04-29-2006, 03:08 AM
George did that too though. Ali proved himself to be reasonably strong, I mean Foreman couldn't shove him away as easily as he did Frazier, but Foreman was definitely the stronger man in that fight.

hemichromis
04-29-2006, 04:05 AM
hey mate, what do u think natural strength is? srsly, do u think its some type of magical power or something. the reason why your overpowering this 600lb bencher in the ring is coz he prob sux at boxing and gets tired eeasly therefore you can push him around. go against that guy in a wrestling match and then you'll see how quick hell put u down. and one more thing, benching is only chest and tri muscles, doesnt mean the person is stronger then u coz he benches more. you have to see overall strength like legs, back, shoulders and core

naa what i mean is he i sstronger in the benchpress position but i can overpower him in other positions because he is only strong in the way he exercises

SABBATH
04-29-2006, 10:48 AM
Then I suggest you watch his Foreman fight because Foreman punched Ali all around the ring and brutalized him against the ropes.Butterfly has a point. Ali was able control Foreman in the clinches by pushing Foreman's neck down with his right hand while placing his his left glove in Foreman's armpit or tricep taking away Foreman's abilty to hit Ali with his free right hand. Foreman didn't manhandle Ali at all in the clinches and this is the topic at point. Functional strength and not punching power. Two different things.

Ali frequently tested his opponents strength early in fights by rough housing his opponents by pulling down on their neck. Chuvalo I and Bonevena fights are examples.

Ali looked in control against Foreman and was hardly brutalized in that fight unless you are talking about body punches. Foreman wasn't driving Ali back to the ropes with mid-ring exchanges. Instead Ali often willingly went to the ropes where he was comfortable fighting as he so often did this in training sessions against sharp shooting sparring partner Larry Holmes and the heavy handed Roy Williams. The truth is, the Foreman fight resembled an Ali sparring session when Ali used to work on fighting off the ropes and coming off throwing shots near the end of each round.

Foreman did hit Ali alot to the body but Ali also deflected and muffled many punches with his forearms, elbows and gloves, and made Foreman miss head shots by timing them and pulling back. Foreman never had great balance and often reached and followed through with his power shots which caused him to fall forward in that fight ending up on top of Ali each time Ali pulled back from a missed punch.

It's interesting that Ali never considered Foreman one of his 10 toughest opponents.

M26
04-29-2006, 11:52 AM
Butterfly has a point. Ali was able control Foreman in the clinches by pushing Foreman's neck down with his right hand while placing his his left glove in Foreman's armpit or tricep taking away Foreman's abilty to hit Ali with his free right hand. Foreman didn't manhandle Ali at all in the clinches and this is the topic at point. Functional strength and not punching power. Two different things.

Ali frequently tested his opponents strength early in fights by rough housing his opponents by pulling down on their neck. Chuvalo I and Bonevena fights are examples.

Ali looked in control against Foreman and was hardly brutalized in that fight unless you are talking about body punches. Foreman wasn't driving Ali back to the ropes with mid-ring exchanges. Instead Ali often willingly went to the ropes where he was comfortable fighting as he so often did this in training sessions against sharp shooting sparring partner Larry Holmes the heavy handed Roy Williams. The truth is, the Foreman fight resembled an Ali sparring session when Ali used to work on fighting off the ropes and coming off throwing shots near the end of each round.

Foreman did hit Ali alot to the body but Ali also deflected and muffled many punches with his forearms, elbows and gloves, and made Foreman miss head shots by timing them and pulling back. Foreman never had great balance and often reached and followed through with his power shots which caused him to fall forward in that fight ending up on top of Ali each time Ali pulled back from a missed punch.

It's interesting that Ali never considered Foreman one of his 10 toughest opponents.

Good post. Some K for you.

tommyhearns804
04-29-2006, 12:39 PM
Originally Posted by SABBATH
Butterfly has a point. Ali was able control Foreman in the clinches by pushing Foreman's neck down with his right hand while placing his his left glove in Foreman's armpit or tricep taking away Foreman's abilty to hit Ali with his free right hand. Foreman didn't manhandle Ali at all in the clinches and this is the topic at point. Functional strength and not punching power. Two different things.

Ali frequently tested his opponents strength early in fights by rough housing his opponents by pulling down on their neck. Chuvalo I and Bonevena fights are examples.

Ali looked in control against Foreman and was hardly brutalized in that fight unless you are talking about body punches. Foreman wasn't driving Ali back to the ropes with mid-ring exchanges. Instead Ali often willingly went to the ropes where he was comfortable fighting as he so often did this in training sessions against sharp shooting sparring partner Larry Holmes the heavy handed Roy Williams. The truth is, the Foreman fight resembled an Ali sparring session when Ali used to work on fighting off the ropes and coming off throwing shots near the end of each round.

Foreman did hit Ali alot to the body but Ali also deflected and muffled many punches with his forearms, elbows and gloves, and made Foreman miss head shots by timing them and pulling back. Foreman never had great balance and often reached and followed through with his power shots which caused him to fall forward in that fight ending up on top of Ali each time Ali pulled back from a missed punch.

It's interesting that Ali never considered Foreman one of his 10 toughest opponents.
Ha good thing i put this kid on ignore so i won't have to see any of this childs post again.But anyway
Number 1 I said this a million times read "The life and Times of Muhammad Ali" And read what Ali said again he fought Foreman not you or anybody here who is posting.Ali said Foreman was so strong that when Foreman had this strength he couldn't even box him and that is one of the reasons he held on
2nd When did Ali just go to the ropes because for no reason?Ali said He went to the ropes because Foreman was much quicker on his feet than he could ever imagine and if he tried to out box Foreman he would get tired and be knocked out.So once he realize that he knew he had to find away to get Foreman tired and laying on the ropes and hoping Foreman would get tired just swinging wild at him and even then Ali said Foreman's blows were hurting him and several had him out on his feet.
3rd Ali said Foreman was the strongest fighter he ever fought and the hardest puncher he ever fought which shows how hard Foreman must punched because Foreman never landed any clean head punches and Shavers did and Foreman still was consider to punch harder by Ali( I know somebody will come along and say you heard Ali say after he fought Shavers he was the hardest puncher but Ali was mellowing later in his career and never really said anything bad about Shavers but years later when asked he said Foreman so i will take it to mean Foreman punched harder)
4th Ali said Foreman was the best figher he ever besides himself and beating Foreman proved that he was the greatest.The only fighter i ever heard Ali say was tough was Frazier even though Norton did Alot better than Frazier did against Ali so who knows who Ali really thougth was tough.
5 Ali never controlled Foreman.Let a 220 pound man pull down on your neck and let's see if you get tired.Ali never tied Foreman up in the whole fight.The only thing Ali did was lay on the ropes hoping and praying Foreman would get tired and when Foreman got close he would either pull down on Foremans neck or try to pull Foreman toward him and then push down on his head which should of gotten Ali DQ but he wasn't even warned.
6 When sparring Ali tried to stick and move which he planned to do against Foreman but Larry Holmes was good a cutting Ali off to that is why he spend so much time on the ropes getting hit on by Holmes(Which is why so many people thought Ali was a shot fighter when in reality he was just fighting better fighters than he fought earlier in this career)
7 None of Foreman body punches were really digging body punches.(Look at the few body punches Foreman threw against Frazier and Norton he got his weight in them and they dropped their hands after a few shots)Foreman loaded up on every punch her threw because he had no respect for Ali.Foreman thought he would just throw some wild bombs and land one and the fight would be over.And is heard this from the people who knew Foreman and trained him.Foreman had a huge ego.He was bound to lose and it just happened to be Ali to be the one who beat him.Nothing special Ali lost to Frazier and Norton Foreman lost to Ali.If you fight good fighters and i mean fighters who are good because they are good and not because the media builds them up you will lose.
But in any case most people will say Foreman is one of the strongest fighters who is known to live.

SABBATH
04-29-2006, 01:31 PM
You could have spared yourself alot of time by actually reading the part where I said TOUGHEST opponents not strongest or hardest hitting.

I will post the following excerpt for the benefit of intelligent readers. tommyhearns804 need not respond.

On sparring for the Foreman fight...Norman Mailer The Fight:

"It was a study to watch Ali take punches. He would lie on the ropes and paw at his sparring partner..."

"Ali was always studying how to deaden such shots or punish the glove that threw the punch forever elaborating his inner comprehension of how to trap, damp, modify, mock, curve, ****, warp, distort, deflect, tip, and turn the bombs that came toward him, and to do this with a minimum of movement back against the ropes languid hands up. He invariably trained by a scenario that cast him as a fighter in deep fatigue."

"Ali lay on the ropes and took punches when he chose to and blocked them when he wished."

"Williams pawed at the air and Ali wrestled him around. He seemed to be working more now on wrestling than boxing as if curious to test his arms against William's strength."

Sounds to me that Ali was preparing his potential strategy for Foreman during these sparring sessions.

Ali-Foreman was a glorified sparring session for Ali.

ALI'S TEN TOUGHEST OPPONENTS-1980 CLAY COMMUNICATIONS GROUP

This list was made by Ali according to the opponents who gave him his toughest fights in order.

1. SONNY LISTON
2. JOE FRAZIER
3. DOUG JONES
4. KEN NORTON
5. LEON SPINKS
6. KARL MILDENBERGER
7. BOB FOSTER
8. OSCAR BONEVENA
9. JIMMY ELLIS
10. HENRY COOPER

Honourable mention:
Jerry Quarry, Joe Bugner, Mac Foster, George Chuvalo, Ernie Terrell, Alvin Lewis, Earnie Shavers.

The article ended with this quote:

"Where is George Foreman? Ron Lyle? Billy Daniels? Floyd Patterson? Jimmy Young? Oh well, they can't all be called his toughest fights can they?"

I will save space. If anyone is interested I will quote what Ali said regarding his reasons for each opponent.

K-DOGG
04-29-2006, 01:59 PM
You could have spared yourself alot of time by actually reading the part where I said TOUGHEST opponents not strongest or hardest hitting.

I will post the following excerpt for the benefit of intelligent readers. tommyhearns804 need not respond.

On sparring for the Foreman fight...Norman Mailer The Fight:

"It was a study to watch Ali take punches. He would lie on the ropes and paw at his sparring partner..."

"Ali was always studying how to deaden such shots or punish the glove that threw the punch forever elaborating his inner comprehension of how to trap, damp, modify, mock, curve, ****, warp, distort, deflect, tip, and turn the bombs that came toward him, and to do this with a minimum of movement back against the ropes languid hands up. He invariably trained by a scenario that cast him as a fighter in deep fatigue."

"Ali lay on the ropes and took punches when he chose to and blocked them when he wished."

"Williams pawed at the air and Ali wrestled him around. He seemed to be working more now on wrestling than boxing as if curious to test his arms against William's strength."

Sounds to me that Ali was preparing his potential strategy for Foreman during these sparring sessions.

Ali-Foreman was a glorified sparring session for Ali.

ALI'S TEN TOUGHEST OPPONENTS-1980 CLAY COMMUNICATIONS GROUP

This list was made by Ali according to the opponents who gave him his toughest fights in order.

1. SONNY LISTON
2. JOE FRAZIER
3. DOUG JONES
4. KEN NORTON
5. LEON SPINKS
6. KARL MILDENBERGER
7. BOB FOSTER
8. OSCAR BONEVENA
9. JIMMY ELLIS
10. HENRY COOPER

Honourable mention:
Jerry Quarry, Joe Bugner, Mac Foster, George Chuvalo, Ernie Terrell, Alvin Lewis, Earnie Shavers.

The article ended with this quote:

"Where is George Foreman? Ron Lyle? Billy Daniels? Floyd Patterson? Jimmy Young? Oh well, they can't all be called his toughest fights can they?"

I will save space. If anyone is interested I will quote what Ali said regarding his reasons for each opponent.

Post the rest, please!

Kid Achilles
04-29-2006, 02:02 PM
Yeah I'd love to hear Ali's reasons. Liston at #1? That seems very strange considering how easily he handled Liston.

LondonRingRules
04-29-2006, 03:39 PM
========Butterfly has a point. Ali was able control Foreman in the clinches by pushing Foreman's neck down with his right hand while placing his his left glove in Foreman's armpit or tricep taking away Foreman's abilty to hit Ali with his free right hand. Foreman didn't manhandle Ali at all in the clinches and this is the topic at point. Functional strength and not punching power. Two different things.======

** You're both pointless.

Sure, Ali was pulling down on Foreman's neck but Foreman was busy punching. Many times when Ali tries to clinch Foreman just shoves him back. Ali could really do very little than lash out with some select flurries at times and he looked pitiful. His corner was screaming at him and thought he was getting killed, yet you claim it was just a glorified sparring session. Ali admits George had him out on his feet a couple of times in that bout.

Ali just managed to drop George at the right time just long enough to get the fight waved off by the ref. Ali collapsed in the middle of the ring seconds later, probably scared thinking that George was gonna beat the count, and has to be helped to his feet. You make it sound like he carried George back to his corner and then ascended into the heavens on a golden cloud.

hemichromis
04-29-2006, 03:45 PM
ali had an easy time with liston are you sure that list was written by ali

Southpaw Stinger
04-29-2006, 07:26 PM
I've heard Ali said somthing like Patterson was the fastest, Liston was the scariest, Foreman was the strongest and the toughest was Frazier. I'm sure thats what Ali said about his opponents.

Southpaw16
04-29-2006, 07:50 PM
I firmly consider Muhammad Ali among the strongest fighters of all time. Notice, I am saying STRONGEST, not the hardest hitter. Ali was never pushed around by anyone, and could hold his own even when facing George Foreman.

All in all, I would say Foreman is the strongest, but Ali was right up there with him. :boxing:

Oh come one!! Did you see the rumble in the jungle fight when Foreman was constantly forcing Ali into the ropes? As great as Ali was physical strength was not what made him great. Ali also had a lot of trouble with being forced into the ropes by Joe Frazier.

SABBATH
04-30-2006, 12:18 AM
LondonRingRules
Ali could really do very little than lash out with some select flurries at times and he looked pitiful. His corner was screaming at him and thought he was getting killed. Ali admits George had him out on his feet a couple of times in that bout.

Ali just managed to drop George at the right time just long enough to get the fight waved off by the ref. Ali collapsed in the middle of the ring seconds later, probably scared thinking that George was gonna beat the count, and has to be helped to his feet. LRR, your infatuation with Ali defeating Foreman on these threads is getting a little stale although it does help break up the monotony of your continuous rants about Ali losing to Leon Spinks.

Ali hardly looked pitiful in defeating Foreman. If anyone looked pitiful it was Foreman who stumbled off balance, reached, pawed and pushed at Ali all the while swinging for the fences with amateurish roundhouse punches that missed Ali's head by a country mile.

Foreman pawed at punches and was a sucker for a feint and Ali exploited this. Many times Ali feinted and as Foreman pawed at Ali's feint and leaned forward off balance Ali was able to land clean straight punches. Ali's closing flurries in rounds 3 and 5 are good examples of Ali exploiting this Foreman flaw.

What Ali's corner was yelling at Ali was "Don't gamble." Dundee can clearly be heard yelling this to Ali in the 5th round as Ali was against the ropes above him.

Ali didn't 'collapse' in the ring after the fight. Ali hated to be mobbed after a fight and wanted breathing room. Ali can clearly be seen telling the well wishers to get away and yelling at brother Rachman to put him down when he tries to pick him up in celebration. Ali then escapes the mob by sitting down and can clearly be seen on the video sitting down on the floor, knees bent forearms resting on his knees before being up again a few moments later. After Norton II when Bundini tried to move in on Ali and crowd him, Ali lashed out and punched Bundini in the head.

How tough for you is it to accept that Ali defeated Foreman? You have no excuses. Everything favoured Foreman. Younger, stronger, heavier hitter and full of confidence. Ali was past his prime at 32 years old conceeded 8 years had been defeated twice in the previous 3 years, once the previous year and had more wear and tear on his body having been in tougher fights. Ali hadn't scored a KO in 2 years when he stopped light-heavyweight Bob Foster. On top of all these advantages Foreman gets a 16 ft square ring (verified by Referee Zack Clayton interviewed on NBC TV Greatest Fights Ever Rumble In The Jungle) and Ali on the ropes and Foreman spends the fight stumbling around like an un-coordinated drunk unable to put together any succession of head shots with his man Ali imobile against the ropes, directly in front of him with his feet planted.

As for Ali being out on his feet a couple of times I'd like to know at which point. Foreman landed very few signifigant head shots at all in the fight. About the best one I recall was a pretty decent right upper-cut in Round 1. Ali's face was unscathed save for a slight discolourization to his right eye likely due to when Ali gets thumbed early in the 7th round.

Ali never staggered nor were his knees buckled and Ali was continually talking alot to Foreman as well. He hardly looked like a man out on his feet. Maybe you can enlighten the readership as to what point in the fight was Ali out on his feet?

Do your homework and actually watch the fight then do your research. Maybe then you can provide evidence to back up your claims.

Until then give it a rest.

SABBATH
04-30-2006, 12:30 AM
Yeah I'd love to hear Ali's reasons. Liston at #1? That seems very strange considering how easily he handled Liston."My toughest fight was probably the night I took the title from Sonny Liston in Miami beach. I was young and a great admirer of Liston's talent. He could do just about everything but dance. He had a tremendous jab, could hit with both hands and was as strong as any heavyweight I've ever seen.

Sonny came out at the opening bell looking to take me apart. I moved and stuck and by the second round I knew I was gaining control. But he was always dangerous. About the 4th round my eyes started burning. When I came back to my corner, I couldn't see at all. I figured Liston had something on his gloves and I asked Dundee to cut my gloves off. Instead he washed out my eyes, checked Liston's corner, talked to the referee, did everything to stall for time. The bell rang and Angelo told me to keep moving till my eyes cleared.

Half blind I got on my bicycle. Luckily I had enough instinct speed and fear to keep from getting tagged till my eyes cleared. Sonny used himself up chasing me and was tired by the end of the 6th. I was very relieved though when Sonny stayed on his stool when the bell rang to start the 7th."

-Muhammad Ali

RockyMarcianofan00
04-30-2006, 12:43 AM
Sonny Liston had a decent punch and did have physical strength but i don't put him in the top 5 for either of those catogories

SABBATH
04-30-2006, 01:25 AM
Post the rest, please!That's alot of typing! Pick the opponent and I'll give you Ali's comments.

SABBATH
04-30-2006, 11:14 AM
LRR, your infatuation with Ali defeating Foreman on these threads is getting a little stale although it does help break up the monotony of your continuous rants about Ali losing to Leon Spinks.

Ali hardly looked pitiful in defeating Foreman. If anyone looked pitiful it was Foreman who stumbled off balance, reached, pawed and pushed at Ali all the while swinging for the fences with amateurish roundhouse punches that missed Ali's head by a country mile.

Foreman pawed at punches and was a sucker for a feint and Ali exploited this. Many times Ali feinted and as Foreman pawed at Ali's feint and leaned forward off balance Ali was able to land clean straight punches. Ali's closing flurries in rounds 3 and 5 are good examples of Ali exploiting this Foreman flaw.

What Ali's corner was yelling at Ali was "Don't gamble." Dundee can clearly be heard yelling this to Ali in the 5th round as Ali was against the ropes above him.

Ali didn't 'collapse' in the ring after the fight. Ali hated to be mobbed after a fight and wanted breathing room. Ali can clearly be seen telling the well wishers to get away and yelling at brother Rachman to put him down when he tries to pick him up in celebration. Ali then escapes the mob by sitting down and can clearly be seen on the video sitting down on the floor, knees bent forearms resting on his knees before being up again a few moments later. After Norton II when Bundini tried to move in on Ali and crowd him, Ali lashed out and punched Bundini in the head.

How tough for you is it to accept that Ali defeated Foreman? You have no excuses. Everything favoured Foreman. Younger, stronger, heavier hitter and full of confidence. Ali was past his prime at 32 years old conceeded 8 years had been defeated twice in the previous 3 years, once the previous year and had more wear and tear on his body having been in tougher fights. Ali hadn't scored a KO in 2 years when he stopped light-heavyweight Bob Foster. On top of all these advantages Foreman gets a 16 ft square ring (verified by Referee Zack Clayton interviewed on NBC TV Greatest Fights Ever Rumble In The Jungle) and Ali on the ropes and Foreman spends the fight stumbling around like an un-coordinated drunk unable to put together any succession of head shots with his man Ali imobile against the ropes, directly in front of him with his feet planted.

As for Ali being out on his feet a couple of times I'd like to know at which point. Foreman landed very few signifigant head shots at all in the fight. About the best one I recall was a pretty decent right upper-cut in Round 1. Ali's face was unscathed save for a slight discolourization to his right eye likely due to when Ali gets thumbed early in the 7th round.

Ali never staggered nor were his knees buckled and Ali was continually talking alot to Foreman as well. He hardly looked like a man out on his feet. Maybe you can enlighten the readership as to what point in the fight was Ali out on his feet?

Do your homework and actually watch the fight then do your research. Maybe then you can provide evidence to back up your claims.

Until then give it a rest.Come on LondonRingRules. Don't be shy. Step up to the plate. I won't wait all day.

K-DOGG
04-30-2006, 12:18 PM
I'm an Ali student, so I can guess his reasons for most of the list; but for the sake of arguement, how about Spinks, Mildenberger, & Cooper.

I do suspect his reasons for those three are along the lines of: age, soutpaw stance, and pressure of Cooper's hook and the fact that the audience was excited and he'd boased about returning to the states for 30 days if he didn't stop him in 5....but please, those three or one of the three would be great, though I don't want to tax you too much.

SABBATH
04-30-2006, 12:42 PM
I'm an Ali student, so I can guess his reasons for most of the list; but for the sake of arguement, how about Spinks, Mildenberger, & Cooper.

I do suspect his reasons for those three are along the lines of: age, soutpaw stance, and pressure of Cooper's hook and the fact that the audience was excited and he'd boased about returning to the states for 30 days if he didn't stop him in 5....but please, those three or one of the three would be great, though I don't want to tax you too much.Oh alright, KK.

1) LEON SPINKS: I was a little older and alot slower than I was when I fought Norton and Frazier but Spinks had as much guts as either of them though he couldn't hit too hard.

Our first fight was so tough for me. I didn't take him as seriously as I should have and Leon came at me all the way, never stopped throwing punches. Even when I rope-a-doped him Spinks kept punching and wouldn't tire. I don't know what happened to Leon after our fights. I really thought he'd be harder to beat than he turned out to be.

2) KARL MILDENBERGER: He was a southpaw and I had a lot of trouble getting untracked against his style. He could box pretty well and he whacked me with some hard punches. I didn't get him until the 12th in what everybody figured would only go 2 or 3 rounds.

3) HENRY COOPER: Cooper was one of the toughest guys I met no question. He dropped me right on the seat of my pants in our first fight. His trouble was his skin. Just touch him and the blood started flowing. I fought him twice and stopped him on cuts both times. That was the only thing when he fought-you knew you'd stop him on cuts sooner or later. The trick was staying away from his left hook in the meantime.

More requests?

K-DOGG
04-30-2006, 12:57 PM
Oh alright, KK.

1) LEON SPINKS: I was a little older and alot slower than I was when I fought Norton and Frazier but Spinks had as much guts as either of them though he couldn't hit too hard.

Our first fight was so tough for me. I didn't take him as seriously as I should have and Leon came at me all the way, never stopped throwing punches. Even when I rope-a-doped him Spinks kept punching and wouldn't tire. I don't know what happened to Leon after our fights. I really thought he'd be harder to beat than he turned out to be.

2) KARL MILDENBERGER: He was a southpaw and I had a lot of trouble getting untracked against his style. He could box pretty well and he whacked me with some hard punches. I didn't get him until the 12th in what everybody figured would only go 2 or 3 rounds.

3) HENRY COOPER: Cooper was one of the toughest guys I met no question. He dropped me right on the seat of my pants in our first fight. His trouble was his skin. Just touch him and the blood started flowing. I fought him twice and stopped him on cuts both times. That was the only thing when he fought-you knew you'd stop him on cuts sooner or later. The trick was staying away from his left hook in the meantime.

More requests?

Muchas Gracias, amigo.

Fascinating stuff. Sorry for the inconvenience of typing all that stuff. :)

SABBATH
04-30-2006, 01:27 PM
Muchas Gracias, amigo.

Fascinating stuff. Sorry for the inconvenience of typing all that stuff. :)
No problem, it's good practice. Most of Ali's reasoning for opponents being difficult is predictable if you have seen the fights.

Many of these fighters he listed brought something unique to the table such as Mildenberger being a southpaw, Spinks being tireless etc..

Not to be disrespectful to Foreman but Ali often sparred with Roy Williams and Blue Lewis two big tall heavyhanded bangers whose styles and physical attributes were along the lines of Foreman. Ali was a terrible gym fighter and spent alot of time on the ropes practicing blocking and muffling big shots as well as working on his strength by wrestling his sparring partners and working on his strength.

The Foreman fight offered Ali nothing he hadn't seen many times already in the gym except for Foreman's power which was unmatched by anyone Ali was previously in the ring against except perhaps Liston..

K-DOGG
04-30-2006, 01:36 PM
No problem, it's good practice. Most of Ali's reasoning for opponents being difficult is predictable if you have seen the fights.

Many of these fighters he listed brought something unique to the table such as Mildenberger being a southpaw, Spinks being tireless etc..

Not to be disrespectful to Foreman but Ali often sparred with Roy Williams and Blue Lewis two big tall heavyhanded bangers whose styles and physical attributes were along the lines of Foreman. Ali was a terrible gym fighter and spent alot of time on the ropes practicing blocking and muffling big shots as well as working on his strength by wrestling his sparring partners and working on his strength.

The Foreman fight offered Ali nothing he hadn't seen many times already in the gym except for Foreman's power which was unmatched by anyone Ali was previously in the ring against except perhaps Liston..

Agreed on Ali being a poor gym fighter. Somebody else, I believe Butterfly, posted on Ali's strength...and I have to agree whole heartedly. Ali won the Foreman fight as much by wrestling with George, holding his head down, etc and enhancing George's natural tiring from missing those huge shots as he did by psychologically getting inside George's head. Angelo Dundee on countless occassions has stated that No One knew the real strength of Muhammad Ali. He was something else. One does not have to be a big puncher to be strong...and Ali was a very strong heavyweight.

Oasis_Lad
04-30-2006, 01:39 PM
great posts sabbath

LondonRingRules
04-30-2006, 02:35 PM
Come on LondonRingRules. Don't be shy. Step up to the plate. I won't wait all day.
** I doubt you ever have to wait to pass gas.

Ali stated he was out on his feet against Foreman. This is such old news that it probably long been recycled in the bottom of your birdcage, but can be found in several of the two dozen or so bios of him.

Ali collapsed, fainted really, plain and simple. This can be seen on film seconds after the fight, and seen on his face which was in considerable distress before the collapse, and Norman Mailer writes about it in The Fight.

Foreman did not have all the advantages, clearly. All he had was youth and power. Ali was only 32, not in his physical prime which turned out to be short, but he was close to his physical prime and had much more big fight experience. He also had time to acclimate to the people, and whip them onto his side against George, and that would include the brutal murderous president who liked Ali so much that he stayed at the presidential palace, letting the people know who the brutal dictator favored.

George arrived weeks later was consigned abandoned army barracks behind barbed wire which he hated. George was immediately severely cut and the fight was postponed a month, during which George could not spar, nor was George allowed to leave the country to tend to his cut. He was held hostage until the fight ended, and didn't like the country he was staying at for good reasons.

I have no problem with the Ali win. It was one of almost a dozen miraculous Ali wins where he benefited from conditions and favorable judging and refereeing. Unprecendent in boxing history really because he never suffered from any bad calls.

What was unusual was his refusal to grant a rematch. Keep in mind that George was publically calling him out, and King held both their contracts. Ali practically lived for rematches, unless the names were Jones, Foreman, and Young.

One chowderhaid on here thinks Ali won all the rounds because of the mythology of the fight which has brainwashed the gullible. Ring did a double edition on the 30th anniversary of the fight, with archival pre thru post fight commentary and interviews.

Foreman clearly wanted a rematch in the interviews and is very philosophical about his loss. Ali is evasive about the rematch, instead indicating some insecurity about his win, brashly asserting his victory and then asking for confirmation of his performance.

And of course, only Foreman could be interviewed for the anniversary of the fight. Ali can no longer give interviews.

hemichromis
04-30-2006, 03:04 PM
i used to believe that if ali and foreman had had a rematch, foreman would use his brain and fought slower and more carefully and ultimately won

but recently i think it would be more of a toss-up

K-DOGG
04-30-2006, 03:12 PM
If Foreman and Ali had rematched after the 3rd Frazier fight, George would have a better chance than before; but still it's a matter of styles and when the fight took place. Ali left most of his "greatness" in the ring in Manilla. He showed flashes after that; but only flashes. The Thrilla effectively finished off both Ali and Frazier.

George, if he had slowed down, would still not have been able to outbox the Muhammad that fought Norton a third time. George just wasn't that good of a boxer and his power, while devastating, wouldn't have kayoed Ali, IMO. George was a pounder, not a one-punch artist, really....and no way Ali would quit and he still had enough left to keep a TKO from happening in 1976.

Now, I will say if Foreman had fought the Ali that fought Shavers, for example, he would have more than likely won a decision...if he paced himself....or a possible TKO with the ref or Ali's corner stopping it.

Ali-Foreman II in 1975....Ali wins. Ali-Foreman II in 1976...toss up with Ali being the slight favorite. Ali-Foreman II in 1977 on....Foreman.

Don't know what all this speculation means; but that's my two cents worth.

RockyMarcianofan00
04-30-2006, 03:27 PM
If Foreman and Ali had rematched after the 3rd Frazier fight, George would have a better chance than before; but still it's a matter of styles and when the fight took place. Ali left most of his "greatness" in the ring in Manilla. He showed flashes after that; but only flashes. The Thrilla effectively finished off both Ali and Frazier.

George, if he had slowed down, would still not have been able to outbox the Muhammad that fought Norton a third time. George just wasn't that good of a boxer and his power, while devastating, wouldn't have kayoed Ali, IMO. George was a pounder, not a one-punch artist, really....and no way Ali would quit and he still had enough left to keep a TKO from happening in 1976.

Now, I will say if Foreman had fought the Ali that fought Shavers, for example, he would have more than likely won a decision...if he paced himself....or a possible TKO with the ref or Ali's corner stopping it.

Ali-Foreman II in 1975....Ali wins. Ali-Foreman II in 1976...toss up with Ali being the slight favorite. Ali-Foreman II in 1977 on....Foreman.

Don't know what all this speculation means; but that's my two cents worth.

Thats incorrect IMO
After the first Rumble in Jungle Foreman wanted a rematch but Ali though at times flashy and much of a showoff was smart enough to realize that since his layoff he wasn't able to dance those 15 rounds (though for me i don't think that would help to much) and also the rope-a-dope wouldn't work, with these things ruled out the only thing ali would have left really is trading with Foreman and even he knew that wasn't a good idea.

Ali didn't want a reamtch cause he knew he'd lose. See one thing Foreman got out of that fight with Ali was smarts. Though a devastating lose, he got the smarts out of that fight which would later help him have one of the most successful comebacks ever. this also helped him conserve energy in every fight after that. Instead of throwing crazily for 4-6 rounds, he could now pick and choose his punches more wisely and go a full 12 rounds. The Rope-a-dope only works once.

Proof:everybody tried to rope-a-dope Foreman after that fight they all got ktfo

K-DOGG
04-30-2006, 03:32 PM
Thats incorrect IMO
After the first Rumble in Jungle Foreman wanted a rematch but Ali though at times flashy and much of a showoff was smart enough to realize that since his layoff he wasn't able to dance those 15 rounds (though for me i don't think that would help to much) and also the rope-a-dope wouldn't work, with these things ruled out the only thing ali would have left really is trading with Foreman and even he knew that wasn't a good idea.

Ali didn't want a reamtch cause he knew he'd lose. See one thing Foreman got out of that fight with Ali was smarts. Though a devastating lose, he got the smarts out of that fight which would later help him have one of the most successful comebacks ever. this also helped him conserve energy in every fight after that. Instead of throwing crazily for 4-6 rounds, he could now pick and choose his punches more wisely and go a full 12 rounds. The Rope-a-dope only works once.

Proof:everybody tried to rope-a-dope Foreman after that fight they all got ktfo

You could be right. Good post.

Southpaw Stinger
04-30-2006, 03:34 PM
The Rope-a-dope only works once.

Proof:everybody tried to rope-a-dope Foreman after that fight they all got ktfo

Very true.

SABBATH
04-30-2006, 04:24 PM
Ali stated he was out on his feet against Foreman. This is such old news that it probably long been recycled in the bottom of your birdcage, but can be found in several of the two dozen or so bios of him.Once again LRR you fail to deliver. I asked you to name when Ali was hurt and predictably you pitch a shut-out. Having watched the fight for the 1000th time this morning, Foreman landed possibly 6 clean power shots to Ali's head in the entire fight. There were so few it was hard to remember which rounds they occurred. Ali held on after catching a big right uppercut in the 1st which was probably the only time if any that Ali may have been stung. Another clean uppercut later in the fight, a right hand to the side of Ali's face and maybe one left hook were the only notable head shots Ali took and he continues to fight and never appeared to be in any danger at any time in the fight. If you were familiar with the fight you would have known this. Ali says he was out on his feet? Do you accept everything Ali says as gospel? If so he may have some land buried beneath a dump in Mexica you might be interested in purchasing country boy.

Ali collapsed, fainted really, plain and simple. This can be seen on film seconds after the fight, and seen on his face which was in considerable distress before the collapse, and Norman Mailer writes about it in The Fight.I prefer to believe my own eyes and not those of Norman Mailer's who saw the events once through a crowd amidst pandemonium before writing about it then rushing off to meet a deadline. Mailer was not in the ring at the time and was not close enough to see exactly what happened. He was a few rows back. The camera angle after the fight is specifically focused on Ali and you can clearly see the the events unfold. Take the time to watch it, you might learn something.

Considerable distress? Ali told the well wishers to get back before he banged Rachman's arms and told him to put him down when his brother hugged him from behind and lifted him a couple of inches up. Ali then sits down, forearms on knees before getting straight back up a few moments later. People that collapse and faint do not miraculously end up sitting in that position. Watch out country boy, the aliens are landing.

He also had time to acclimate to the people, and whip them onto his side against George. Poor George. The people didn't like him. Such insurmountable odds to overcome. Now I see. It was the people of Zaire that won the fight for Ali. Just think if they had of yelled George Bomaye! It would have been Ali that was 10 counted. George was immediately severely cut and the fight was postponed a month, during which George could not spar, nor was George allowed to leave the country to tend to his cut. He was held hostage until the fight ended, and didn't like the country he was staying at for good reasons.That was not a severe cut. He caught an elbow in sparring and suffered a minor cut. Why does he have to leave the country to get a couple of stitches? Were there no doctors in Zaire? Foreman was held hostage because the country which had fronted the money to bring the fight to Kinsasha were concerned that Foreman would back out of the fight and not come back. And George did spar. Read 'The Fight' where Mailer explains Foreman's sparring sessions with Henry Clark and Terry Lee preceeding the fight.

K-DOGG
04-30-2006, 04:34 PM
For what it's worth, Ali did not "collapse" at the end of the fight. He sat down to escape the mob of people that came in to congradulate him on knocking Geoge out. It can clearly be seen and Dr. Pachecho has said as much...and Ali did it on several other occasions after the Foreman win.

Oh, and as far as the Zairians "not likeing" Foreman, they didn't know who he was...they had known Ali from his 1964 trip to Africa and his stand against the U.S. government...several actually thought George was White until they saw him get off the plane (see "When We Were Kings"...great documentary of the fight) and he didn't help matters by bringing a German Sheppard with him....the same type of dog used by the Belgians to harass the locals while Zaire was the "Belgian Congo".

RockyMarcianofan00
04-30-2006, 05:02 PM
actually people in zaire didn't like Foreman because when he came off the plane he had two german sheperds (i believe thats what they were) and German Sheperds (if thats them) were used in the slave camps before Zaire was liberated (or something like that) and they took great offense to this

SABBATH
04-30-2006, 05:04 PM
This also helped him conserve energy in every fight after that. Instead of throwing crazily for 4-6 rounds, he could now pick and choose his punches more wisely and go a full 12 rounds. Foreman sure looked out of gas against Jimmy Young and was dog tired in the Lyle fight.

If Foreman conserves his energy, and picks and chooses his punches do you think this approach would fare better against Ali, who had the most trouble with pressure fighters? Foreman's best chance against an older Ali would be to attack and swarm him and get him early. Foreman's best bet would be to get Ali on the ropes them pound on his upper arms sapping his strength. Foreman should have done this the first fight as well as step to the side and buriy his body shots around Ali's elbows to the kidney area. That is what will wear Ali down late if Foreman doesn't get him early.

Except for Foreman's 10th round KO over Moorer, Foreman notoriously didn't carry his power late into a fight. The longer an older Ali lasts against Foreman the better his chances would become.

Foreman's energy conserving style didn't work well against guys that wouldn't come to him and made Foreman force the action. Foreman specifically avoided these types of fighters late in his career because of the problems they presented.

If Foreman couldn't cut off the ring and defeat a one-dimensional slugger like Tommy Morrison who for the only time in his career chose to be a jab and runner, Big George is bound to be troubled by good boxers.

armani_model
04-30-2006, 05:04 PM
Iron mike tyson!!

RockyMarcianofan00
04-30-2006, 05:17 PM
Foreman sure looked out of gas against Jimmy Young and was dog tired in the Lyle fight.

If Foreman conserves his energy, and picks and chooses his punches do you think this approach would fare better against Ali, who had the most trouble with pressure fighters? Foreman's best chance against an older Ali would be to attack and swarm him and get him early. Foreman's best bet would be to get Ali on the ropes them pound on his upper arms sapping his strength. Foreman should have done this the first fight as well as step to the side and buriy his body shots around Ali's elbows to the kidney area. That is what will wear Ali down late if Foreman doesn't get him early.

Except for Foreman's 10th round KO over Moorer, Foreman notoriously didn't carry his power late into a fight. The longer an older Ali lasts against Foreman the better his chances would become.

Foreman's energy conserving style didn't work well against guys that wouldn't come to him and made Foreman force the action. Foreman specifically avoided these types of fighters late in his career because of the problems they presented.

If Foreman couldn't cut off the ring and defeat a one-dimensional slugger like Tommy Morrison who for the only time in his career chose to be a jab and runner, Big George is bound to be troubled by good boxers.

later in his life he got a few decisions

granted Foreman was never known for his great stamina

SABBATH
04-30-2006, 05:59 PM
later in his life he got a few decisions

granted Foreman was never known for his great staminaTrue. My point is that when Foreman fights at a measured pace against a more cautious opponent Young, Stewart, Morrison, Shulz, Briggs his chance at a KO gets slimmer. Foreman's style was ideal aaginst the swarmer, less ideal against a retreating boxer with some ring smarts. I'd probably still pick Foreman but prime vs prime Larry Holmes would be a tough match-up for Big George.

!! Anorak
06-22-2006, 09:59 AM
Anyone get KO: Boxing 2006 (Ring's sister magazine) this month? They said that Lennox was possibly the strongest heavyweight ever.

Yaman
06-22-2006, 10:09 AM
Anyone get KO: Boxing 2006 (Ring's sister magazine) this month? They said that Lennox was possibly the strongest heavyweight ever.

Thats bull****, he got pushed around by Holyfield, Klitchko and Rahman. Im sure by a few others aswell. Lewis was strong, but not that strong.

The Troll
06-22-2006, 11:02 AM
I pretty much agree with the rest of you. Gerry Cooney and Earnie Shavers deserve a mention.

!! Anorak
06-22-2006, 12:39 PM
Thats bull****, he got pushed around by Holyfield, Klitchko and Rahman. Im sure by a few others aswell. Lewis was strong, but not that strong.

His stamina was certainly suspect at times, and clearly he's going to feel the weight of another large man pressing him from time to time, but there was also a fantasy match-up in The Ring last year sometime that had him as stronger than Foreman.

Don't forget, big Len would be outweighing some of the old school guys by several pounds.

Southpaw Stinger
06-22-2006, 12:50 PM
Don't forget, big Len would be outweighing some of the old school guys by several pounds.

And even then he wasn't to strong.

Lennox was pushed around by Holyfield and yet old Foreman pushed Holyfield around.

hemichromis
06-22-2006, 03:44 PM
lennox was actually very strong but he didn't tend to use his strength most of the time he just didn't wrestle in the cliunchs. that said foreman was deffinately stronger he was freakishly strong!

K-DOGG
06-22-2006, 03:54 PM
Can't remember if I responded to this thread already or not; so, at the risk of being repetitive:


In No Particular Order

James J. Jeffries
George Foreman
Primo Carnera...that big, had to be
Nicolay Valuev...'cmon, he's a freakin' giant
Muhammad Ali....he manhandled everybody on the inside
Sonny Liston
Vitali Klitschko...huge man
Wladimir Klitschko...once again, freakin' huge

Southpaw Stinger
06-22-2006, 04:45 PM
James J. Jeffries
George Foreman
Primo Carnera...that big, had to be
Nicolay Valuev...'cmon, he's a freakin' giant
Muhammad Ali....he manhandled everybody on the inside
Sonny Liston
Vitali Klitschko...huge man
Wladimir Klitschko...once again, freakin' huge

I wouldn't put Jeffries at the top. He was strong but it was an exagerated legend. He wasn't a huge man and he thought very small heavies.

K-DOGG
06-22-2006, 04:53 PM
I wouldn't put Jeffries at the top. He was strong but it was an exagerated legend. He wasn't a huge man and he thought very small heavies.

Ahh, got to disagree with Jeffries strength being exagerated. There are many accounts of his athleticism outside of the ring....the most famous of which is him carrying a buck on his shoulders for about five miles through the woods on a hunting trip.

KO power doesn't necessarily denote strength. He was 6'4" and weight about 220....and that's a hard 220 that he built up making boilers under the harsh working conditions of the late 1800's. I can't turn a blind eye to that.

Dempsey 1919
06-22-2006, 05:06 PM
Ahh, got to disagree with Jeffries strength being exagerated. There are many accounts of his athleticism outside of the ring....the most famous of which is him carrying a buck on his shoulders for about five miles through the woods on a hunting trip.

KO power doesn't necessarily denote strength. He was 6'4" and weight about 220....and that's a hard 220 that he built up making boilers under the harsh working conditions of the late 1800's. I can't turn a blind eye to that.

Jeffries was not 6'-4". He was about 6'-2" and about 215-217. :rolleyes:

K-DOGG
06-22-2006, 05:14 PM
Jeffries was not 6'-4". He was about 6'-2" and about 215-217. :rolleyes:

Split the difference...he was 6' 3". :rolleyes:

But he still averaged 220 Lbs. :D

Dempsey 1919
06-22-2006, 05:15 PM
Split the difference...he was 6' 3". :rolleyes:

But he still averaged 220 Lbs. :D

If you put Jeffries on your list, then you have to put Jack Johnson on that list as well.

K-DOGG
06-22-2006, 05:18 PM
If you put Jeffries on your list, then you have to put Jack Johnson on that list as well.

:nonono: Johnson was great at manhandling guys on the inside; but you know as well as I do that the Jeffries he fought was 35 years old, had lost in excess of 80 Lbs for that fight, and had been out of the ring for 5 years.

Yaman
06-22-2006, 05:21 PM
Dunno about Sonny Liston. He pushed around smaller heavyweights, somtimes he didnt at all.

Jack Johnson was very strong, the way he stood in the ring and shoved some of his opponents in the ring. But same as Liston, he fought smaller fighters.

RockyMarcianofan00
06-22-2006, 05:22 PM
Jefferies- didn't he have huge legs and used to wrestle to train for fights?

I also heard he used to be a circus performer as well, I've heard many accounts of him being VERY VERY strong, definitely in his prime physically stronger then Johnson...

http://coxscorner.tripod.com/Images/jeffries1900.jpg
He looks rather strong to me

check out this site
http://coxscorner.tripod.com/jeffries.html

I agree with it that its very unfair to rate Jefferies because of his loss to Johnson....In his prime he is said to be a great fighter

"Gilbert Odd, a historian and boxing book author wrote, "James J. Jeffries was the strongest of all the heavyweight champions" (1974, 18). According to those in Jeffries training camp, Jeff, "a lover of hunting, once killed a large deer and carried it on his shoulders nine miles to camp without stopping to rest. Friends who accompanied him had difficulty keeping up with him on the jaunt home" (Tracy Callis)."

K-DOGG
06-22-2006, 05:26 PM
Jefferies- didn't he have huge legs and used to wrestle to train for fights?

I also heard he used to be a circus performer as well, I've heard many accounts of him being VERY VERY strong, definitely in his prime physically stronger then Johnson...

Dunno 'bout the circus; but his legs were indeed huge. He was a monster of a man for the times....and would be a big man today. The key to me is the time in which he developed his strength. Any man (or woman for that matter) working for a living in the late 1800's were no slouches. Those were hard times.

RockyMarcianofan00
06-22-2006, 05:29 PM
If you read that site you'll realize just how athletic he was

Jeffries had a lot more than just a modern heavyweights size and great strength going for him; he was also an outstanding natural athlete. Durant wrote, “He was surprisingly fast and agile. He could run 100 yards in 11 seconds, and high jump 5 feet, 10 inches.” (Durant, 45.) That is absolutely remarkable for a man of his size. Consider that Jesse Owens ran the 100-yard dash in 9.4 seconds a worlds record in 1936 (nowadays they run 100 meters). That a heavyweight boxer, not a track and field athlete, can accomplish such feats is the mark of an excellent athletic talent.

Dempsey 1919
06-22-2006, 05:31 PM
Dunno about Sonny Liston. He pushed around smaller heavyweights, somtimes he didnt at all.

Jack Johnson was very strong, the way he stood in the ring and shoved some of his opponents in the ring. But same as Liston, he fought smaller fighters.

Sonny Liston was never manhandled except by ali, that's saying something. And I've never seen johnson manhandled period, small fighters or not. And Johnson fought a few big men.

Yaman
06-22-2006, 05:34 PM
I believe Jeffries did that with a deer.

BUT CHECK OUT GEORGE FOREMAN.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6045286431650106346&q=george+foreman

First you see him carry a swine(something like that) on his back.

Then what he does with the car.

That is basicely why i think he was the strongest HW ever.

Kid Achilles
06-22-2006, 06:34 PM
From what I can gather (photos, tales of the tape, accounts from people who've actually seen an old Jeffries in person etc), Jeffries' frame was just as big as Foreman's despite being a few inches shorter. Put Foreman in Jeffries time, where he's running 10 miles a day (prime Foreman rarely ran at all) and I'd be surprised if he weighed over 210. Put Jeffries in Foreman's time when the sciences of nutrition and athletics have advanced (as evidenced by comparing the average boxer's physique from each era) and Jeffries is even bigger and stronger.

I'll go with Jeffries or maybe Jess Willard as pure freaks of muscle and tendon strength and bone density.

Yet I'm sure there are some kids on here that would put pick Tyson because of his high peaked impressive looking biceps, regardless of how easily he was bulled around by world renowned strongman contestant, Peter McNeely.

Jeffries it is. That's my best guess.

BAREKNUCKLES
06-22-2006, 10:13 PM
GEORGE FOREMAN was the hardest hitting, biggest, strongest heavyweight in history.

I think he was more scary when he came back in the late 80's. He looked like a professional wrestler, he was ugly and I never believed the height and weight they listed him at. The man was huge and powerful.


If George Foreman were a machine, he would be a locomotive-steam roller.

RockyMarcianofan00
06-22-2006, 11:24 PM
From what I can gather (photos, tales of the tape, accounts from people who've actually seen an old Jeffries in person etc), Jeffries' frame was just as big as Foreman's despite being a few inches shorter. Put Foreman in Jeffries time, where he's running 10 miles a day (prime Foreman rarely ran at all) and I'd be surprised if he weighed over 210. Put Jeffries in Foreman's time when the sciences of nutrition and athletics have advanced (as evidenced by comparing the average boxer's physique from each era) and Jeffries is even bigger and stronger.

I'll go with Jeffries or maybe Jess Willard as pure freaks of muscle and tendon strength and bone density.

Yet I'm sure there are some kids on here that would put pick Tyson because of his high peaked impressive looking biceps, regardless of how easily he was bulled around by world renowned strongman contestant, Peter McNeely.

Jeffries it is. That's my best guess.

I agree with you-
but overall George Foreman is physically strongest and Hardest hitter but Jefferies is also extremely strong....I mean Foreman did weight lifting and pulled cars which is great (especially compared to today's heavyweights)but it training wise it doesn't compare to Jefferies training...From what I've heard he was in the circus and such, and also had a variety of other training methods...If you put Foreman in Jefferies time I think natrually he'd be about 210-215 but Jefferies in Foreman's time he'd be much stronger and much better boxer...He'd probably be strength wise at least on par with Foreman, I'm not sure about Jefferies punching power though.....

George Foreman physically strongest...

Southpaw Stinger
06-22-2006, 11:28 PM
If you put Foreman in Jefferies time I think natrually he'd be about 210-215

You know Foreman in his prime wanted to be around 235 lbs where he felt his weight naturally fell.
His trainers wouldn't allow it and forced him to get down to around 220 before a fight hoping it would improve his stamina!
But Foreman liked to eat.... a lot!

Zigga
06-23-2006, 06:03 PM
Am confussed are we talking about how strong they are when it comes to lifting **** or are we talking about core strenght, how strong they are in a fight?
Two very different things.

Yaman
06-23-2006, 06:23 PM
Am confussed are we talking about how strong they are when it comes to lifting **** or are we talking about core strenght, how strong they are in a fight?
Two very different things.

I guess weight lifting means nothing when you're fighting in the clinches. Tyson could lift more weights than nearly anyone he faced, but he was easily pushed back.

Zigga
06-23-2006, 11:23 PM
I would lead toward forman, but was only strong for 7-8 rounds. Over the duration of a longer fight i would have to go with rocky, so i dont know how u judge it.

dino
06-24-2006, 01:46 AM
nicolay valuev..easily

http://www.*********.com/1photos/valuev1.jpg

hellfire508
06-24-2006, 03:50 AM
Someone who was deceivingly strong was Muhammad Ali. He was immobilise his opponent in clinches. He looked a rather lean heavyweight, but he was very, very strong. (Not the strongest though).

dansweeney
06-24-2006, 04:45 AM
He'd have to squat more than that I could do 450 in high school
\

the only time you squat is to take a piss you fairy

sleazyfellow
06-24-2006, 10:29 AM
Someone who was deceivingly strong was Muhammad Ali. He was immobilise his opponent in clinches. He looked a rather lean heavyweight, but he was very, very strong. (Not the strongest though).

yeah ali was able to get that old hand behind the head alot during fights to wear out bigger, stronger opponents and then in the later rounds he could take control and really push them around...good move but illegal

hellfire508
06-25-2006, 07:26 AM
Oh no doubt. If you can get away with it, then do it. I think the majority of great fighters used illegal tactics, and most of the time got away with it.

Yaman
06-27-2006, 09:02 AM
Oh no doubt. If you can get away with it, then do it. I think the majority of great fighters used illegal tactics, and most of the time got away with it.

Majority? Like who else besides Holyfield? Foreman was strong enough to overcome that dirty ****.

SABBATH
06-27-2006, 10:29 AM
Oh no doubt. If you can get away with it, then do it. I think the majority of great fighters used illegal tactics, and most of the time got away with it.I could make an enormous list of illegal tactics great fighters use and get away with. It's part of ring generalship. It's called tricks of the trade. If you understand boxing you can see the subtleties if not the outright fouls.

Larry Holmes used to throw a slightly open glove uppercut, thumbing opponents, or hold a fighters head with his left hand before hitting him with a right (Jack Johnson trick) ...

Foreman used to forceably push guys back at the shoulders, rabbit punch, kidney punch and thumb...

Lennox Lewis would hold and hit or push down a forearm on the back of an opponents neck...

Duran on the inside would often put the top of his head under an opponents chin and push up, would drag his laces on an opponents face when freeing his arms in clinches, would headbutt, hit on the break and also used the thumb when necessary ie: thumbed Davey Moore in the first round blinding him in one eye (on purpose? hhmmmm....)

Hagler would headbutt and punch low...

Leonard would hit after the bell or on the breaks...

And of course Ali could write a book on subtle fouls...and Tyson on the obvious

Brassangel
06-27-2006, 12:41 PM
Orignally Posted by SABBATH
And of course Ali could write a book on subtle fouls...and Tyson on the obvious.

That's funny, because it's so true. One was smooth about it, the other was retarded.

Rane-Ex54
06-29-2006, 08:27 PM
David Tua. Dude has never been knocked down and he fought alot of good dudes.

Heckler
07-02-2006, 03:22 AM
Strongest fighter ever? Foreman and Jeffries? The strongest out of these two.. i have no idea.

Hard Boiled HK
07-08-2006, 01:17 AM
And of course Ali could write a book on subtle fouls...and Tyson on the obvious

I thought the only subtle foul of Ali was the thumb.

Also, Ali said in his autobiography "The Greatest" that Foreman pushed him around like a rag doll...

chris_cov
07-08-2006, 09:27 AM
george foreman he wasnt human. his strength was unbelievable.

Toddy
07-08-2006, 06:53 PM
Rocky Marciano for such a small person but Foreman overall 4 me

Yaman
03-09-2007, 09:12 AM
New addition is Niko Valuev. By his size only he can push nearly anyone around the ring. He knocked some smaller opponents down with pushes even.

Dempsey 1919
03-09-2007, 01:15 PM
New addition is Niko Valuev. By his size only he can push nearly anyone around the ring. He knocked some smaller opponents down with pushes even.

So did Foreman, Ali, and just about every other decently strong fighter.:rolleyes:

Yaman
03-09-2007, 01:28 PM
So did Foreman, Ali, and just about every other decently strong fighter.:rolleyes:

No they didn't dumbass. Valuev had opponents rolling all over the ring with some easy pushes. You haven't even seen Valuev's fights, so don't pretend like you know about this.

Dempsey 1919
03-09-2007, 02:25 PM
No they didn't dumbass. Valuev had opponents rolling all over the ring with some easy pushes. You haven't even seen Valuev's fights, so don't pretend like you know about this.

Foreman pushed down Boone Kirkman(who looked to be as big as Foreman), Miguel Paez about three times, and others. Ali pushed down Oscar Bonavena(another strong fighter) about twice or three times with ease.

Bucktown Beast
03-09-2007, 04:37 PM
Brute strength goes to Foreman. No question.

Pound for pound strength goes to the little guys I'm sure though...Like Mosley or Norris for instance weighed 150 and are said to bench 350 lbs. But thats also weight strength, applied strength is different. Theres a reason The Worlds Strongest Mans competitions aren't simply weight lifting tests.

Criteria is hard to determine...Theres people that can bench twice their weight and have zero knockout power, just different. Sam Peter is definitely up there too.