View Full Version : Joe Frazier was not a great fighter


Frazier's 15th round
04-13-2006, 03:52 AM
Joe Frazier was not a great fighter

A honest and unbiased look at the overrated career of Joe Frazier.

ďJoeís gonna be smokiní aní I ainít even jokin but Iíll be peckiní and a pokiní and Iíll pour water on that smokiníĒ

Letís briefly go over the career of Frazier and the opponents he fought.

Mike Bruce (10-29). Frazierís ďhall of fameĒ career starts off on the right foot, correct? Actually, incorrect. In his second fight, Frazier meets up with this no name punk Bruce, and immediately gets floored in the first round. Against a bum like this! You need not look to the Foreman fights to see that Frazier was chinny. He was exposed right here. Frazier manages to get up off the canvas (where heíll spend a lot of time in his career) to knock out this ham and egger in Round 3. Bruce was starched by Cleveland Williams in one round, and he even lost to legendary tomato can Chuck Wepner. Other stellar losses on his resume include Sonny Andrews (4-12 career record), Charlie Emperor Harris (12-30, he certainly wasnít an emperor of boxing, maybe of getting knocked out), and Stamford Harris, and Tommy Hicks.

So, there you have it. Frazier is already shown to have a glass chin, and this will factor into his manager Yank Durhamís decisions on who Frazier fights in the future. Needless to say, Frazier will side step quite a few heavy hitters, instead choosing to beat up on guys he already took care of, and fighters that hit like girls. Anyways, after padding his record with guys like Charley Polite and Memphis Al Jones, Frazier faces his first real test in:

Oscar Bonavena (58-9). What happens? Frazier gets decked twice, almost losing by TKO. He barely escapes the round and manages to get a gift decision by the judges. People claim that Frazier was green while Oscar was a veteran, but Oscar only had 11 more pro fights than Frazier. Also, Bonavena as a fighter was quite overrated, simply because he fought in the 70ís. He was nothing more than an okay fighter with a stupid and akward style. He
wasnít very big, proving that Frazier canít win the big one against skilled men larger than himself, so he fights easy guys all the time.

Iíll take the time now to discuss Frazierís chin and his defense. Itís pointless to mention every single opponent and the times they rocked Frazier, because Iíd be here all night. EVERY guy he fought landed good hard shots on him, and stunned and staggered him. This includes good fighters like Ali, and even poor ones like Stander and Ramos. Now, you must wonder, how can all these guys land such clean shots all the time? It was because Frazierís pathetic excuse for defense. He had none. Bobbing and weaving never did much for him, except tire him out. He was basically a stationary target, and many opponents took advantage of this. But as mentioned, none of them could really hit, and Yank Durham should win some kind of award for making such a pathetic fighter like Frazier look good. Durham was one of the smartest managers ever. He even managed to weasel his way out of fights, as will be discussed a little later. Anyways, back to Joeís career. He beats up on an extremely old and shot Eddie Machen, and mows through stumble****s like Doug Jones and Jefferson Davis, before moving on to:

George Johnson (19-24). ďScrap IronĒ Johnson was his nickname. Seems fitting. You can find scraps like him in the local dumpster, which is where this fight took place. Some ****hole. Anyways, Georgie was obviously robbed of a decision here. Not many know the story of this fight. Frazier called GJ the toughest fighter he ever fought, and with good reason. The man beat the hell out of him all night. The fans went crazy every time George landed a punch (which, obviously, was quite often). But the judges were most likely bribed and gave the decision to an up and coming fighter rather than a guy with a losing career record. Yank probably paid them money. He certainly had enough, as the guy was a crook. I wouldnít be surprised if Frazier was in on it, as well. He always seemed pretty shady. So anyways, chalk up another loss for Frazier, but it was scored as a win.

How many gifts can a glass chinned fighter recieve in his career? How many big punchers and good fighters can one man duck before people start to raise questions? The proof is right here on paper, Frazier was a con. So, he moves on to beat up on ďThe Human Punching BagĒ George Chuvalo, as well as Tony Doyle and Marion Conner.

This is where things start to get interesting. Ali, at this point, has his title stripped, so an 8 man elimination tournament is held, with fighters such as Ellis, Quarry, Martin, and Spencer, and some other no names. Should be an easy path to the title for Frazier, right? Wrong. Frazier and Durham OPT OUT OF THE TOURNAMENT. See, Frazier is too lazy and too soft to fight more than twice a year, so he decides to take on:

Buster Mathis (30-4). A rematch of the Olympics. A quick little story about that. Frazier won the 1964 gold medal, but that was because Mathis was injured and had to leave the tournament. HE ALREADY BEAT FRAZIER. Frazier undeservingly won the gold medal in his place. But the truth was, Mathis was just a big, fat, lump of **** with no skills at all. Proves that Joe canít run with the big boys. Frazier gets lucky by TKOíing Mathis in Round 11. Most likely Mathis would have caught Joe on his china chin and down he goes. But, Frazier gets lucky, and wins the NYSAC heavyweight title.

He moves on to defend it against Manuel Ramos, who ended up with a losing record. In that fight, Ramos almost knocks Joe out with one punch, and that was all Manuel had. No chin, no speed, nothing else. Frazier then doubles up on Bonavena, which he likes to do, and then beats Ziggy in 36 seconds. Yeah, great title defenses. And I thought this guy was a top 10 heavyweight? People may reconsider after reading this. Things get interesting
when he squares off with:

Jerry Quarry (53-9). Quarry was a great fighter, who would have been champion if, one, he boxed against Frazier, or two, he slugged it out with Ellis. He simply fought stupid both times. He also cut very easily. Now, Frazier was a thug, which is well known. He could brawl anytime, as he normally does on weekends in the bars. Quarry foolishly decides to turn the match into a slugfest, resulting in his downfall. Fight is stopped after 7.

Frazier moves on to beat up an inactive Jimmy Ellis and light heavy Bob Foster. Another example where Cloverlay in general avoided big hitters. Frazier was set to fight Mac Foster, who recently admitted that he would have stopped Frazier faster than Foreman did. But, Yankís dog must have ate the contract, so the fight never came to be. This set the stage for The Fight of the Century, with:

Frazier's 15th round
04-13-2006, 03:54 AM
Muhammad Ali (56-5). The best fighter Frazier ever faced. Alas, he was nowhere near his best as he had just had a long layoff, and had also barely trained for this fight. But, he still
manages to put Frazier in the hospital for 3 weeks, and was robbed of an obvious decision. Just look at Frazierís face to see who won that fight. Ali easily beat him in both rematches,
as well. Frazier barely won a round in either fight. Also, Ali hit like a little girl, proving that Frazier takes fights with sissy punchers all the time to make himself look good. But when put in with a good or even halfway decent fighter, he gets wrecked.

After taking the rest of the year off, and padding his horrid record with more bums, named Terry Daniels (35-31, after beating nobody any good) and Ron Stander, Frazier meets up with:

George Foreman (76-5). Extremely padded record, only fighting about 4 top 10 guys in the 70ís. George and his feet stuck in the mud style didnít even deserve a title shot, but Frazier figured he was another easy big man with no real boxing skills. He was right in that sense, but he forgot that he himself was not a great fighter, either. Foreman goes in and free swings all night, and bounces Frazier all over like a basketball. 6 knockdowns occur before the ref stops it. Glass Joe fails to impress once again (I think thatís how the guy from Punch Out got his name). Foreman would later be exposed in fights with Ali and even Jimmy Young. Those guys were clever enough to see that Foreman had no stamina, wasted all his energy throwing wild punches, and was an easy target. But Frazier was a cement headed bull, too stupid to box and move, so he walked right in to the flailing arms of this big turd George.

Frazier beats up on another big man named Joe Bugner. Frazier was wise in choosing this guy, as Durham had died by this point and Bugner had no skills. Ali then dances rings around Frazier. Frazier then decides to double up on Jerry Quarry and a shot Jimmy Ellis, before getting his ass kicked by Ali again, and finally getting whooped by that amateur Foreman again.

Now, the interesting thing about Joeís career after Ali 1, is that it was pathetic. Frazier side stepped so many big punchers, it was laughable. He was signed on to fight Earnie Shavers, who had a glass jaw, perhaps even worse than Frazierís, but Frazier knew Shavers would land one punch and it would be over. He also avoids Ken Norton and Ron Lyle, both of whom would have dispatched of him rather quickly. Ignore the stories about
how Norton and Frazier fought wars in sparring. Norton knocked him out easily many times. Eddie Futch knew Joe could never beat Ken, so he wouldnít allow the fight to happen. So Frazier doubles up on shot fighters before getting an undeserving title shot. And shocker of all shockers, he loses. He then comes back to fight a skill-less Jumbo Cummings, but gets a gift draw. Anyone who was there knows Floyd won that fight.

In conclusion, Frazier should not be even considered a top 50 heavyweight. He beat a shot Ali, and thatís all his legacy has to stand on. He ducked all the big punchers (even old man
Liston), and the only one he fought utterly destroyed him. Frazier had no chin, no defense, overrated offense, and overrated heart. He quit on his stool in Manila, and doubled up on easy victories. He even admits this in his autobiography, calling many of the guys he fought names like sissies, pansies, and dogmeat. The fact is, every legendary fighter would have made mincemeat out of this chinny thug. And thatís the final word.

Heckler
04-13-2006, 08:24 AM
Oh right, here comes 15thFrazier trying to redeem himself and be clever by discrediting Frazier... you really think someones retarded enough to fall for it? ROFL

Da Iceman
04-13-2006, 09:21 AM
you can say the same thing about tyson, everyone starts there career fighting bums, you think if his first fight was against ali or liston he wouldve won. NO.

Heckler
04-13-2006, 10:08 AM
Dont fall for it, hes full of ****.

THE REAL NINJA
04-13-2006, 10:29 AM
Frazier was great i don't have him top 10 maybe not even 20 but he was a great fighter

Kid Achilles
04-13-2006, 12:11 PM
Name twenty heavyweights who were better than Frazier. Hell, name ten heavyweights who were better.

THE REAL NINJA
04-13-2006, 12:23 PM
Name twenty heavyweights who were better than Frazier. Hell, name ten heavyweights who were better.
ali,louis,holmes,foreman,marciano,holyfield,lewis, dempsey,tyson,langford, not to say all would beat him but i rate them higher Bowe i would rate lower but i think he would KO Frazier

Frazier's 15th round
04-13-2006, 12:31 PM
Eddie Futch said that Frazier would have wrecked Bowe if they ever fought.

Brassangel
04-13-2006, 01:06 PM
Originally posted by Frazier's 15th round
Muhammad Ali (56-5). The best fighter Frazier ever faced. Alas, he was nowhere near his best as he had just had a long layoff, and had also barely trained for this fight. But, he still
manages to put Frazier in the hospital for 3 weeks, and was robbed of an obvious decision. Just look at Frazierís face to see who won that fight. Ali easily beat him in both rematches,
as well. Frazier barely won a round in either fight. Also, Ali hit like a little girl, proving that Frazier takes fights with sissy punchers all the time to make himself look good. But when put in with a good or even halfway decent fighter, he gets wrecked.

I find it interesting that you said Frazier clearly won these matches in the "Ali was overrated" thread, and here you say that Ali easily won them. Well, which is it?

hemichromis
04-13-2006, 04:47 PM
frasier had a great heart and he was a good slugger, not very mobile but he could take a punch and throw them better

all frasier-ali fights were close

its such a shame he lost so easily to foreman i mean foreman had great timing and everything but no champ should lose a title like that

the frasier-foreman fight was the reason tyson didn't want to fight foreman!

ricecrispi
04-13-2006, 07:52 PM
frasier had a great heart and he was a good slugger, not very mobile but he could take a punch and throw them better


You don't know enough about boxing if you say Frazier ain't mobile.

1) he's aggressive and moved enough to trap ali and about dozens of other fighters. In fact in most of his fights he's always moving he's feet unless he's clinching.
2)He's moving upper body or weaving punchs most of the time and you didn't notice he was moving forwards and using he's feet.
3) was always in trading distance for the most of the fight
4) He used an explosive step to deliver that left hook. Frazier is like 5'9" and arms weren't that long so he had to be moving in to get that left hook. If he so immobile he could never set that thing up.
5)Frazier moves more than half the top heavyweight contenders of today. So id on't know who you are comparing to because these are heavyweights and not lightweights.

The_One77
04-13-2006, 08:44 PM
tell me Frazier's 15th round, have you ever boxed in your life?
I bet you're one of those losers on front of the computer all day who looks down on boxers, when you've probably never ever tried it yourself.
Are you always such a prick in real life?

hemichromis
04-14-2006, 05:40 AM
You don't know enough about boxing if you say Frazier ain't mobile.

1) he's aggressive and moved enough to trap ali and about dozens of other fighters. In fact in most of his fights he's always moving he's feet unless he's clinching.
2)He's moving upper body or weaving punchs most of the time and you didn't notice he was moving forwards and using he's feet.
3) was always in trading distance for the most of the fight
4) He used an explosive step to deliver that left hook. Frazier is like 5'9" and arms weren't that long so he had to be moving in to get that left hook. If he so immobile he could never set that thing up.
5)Frazier moves more than half the top heavyweight contenders of today. So id on't know who you are comparing to because these are heavyweights and not lightweights.


i didn;t mean he wasn;t mobile he just wasn;t as mobile as alot of competition he didn;t tend mover around as fast but he sure did present a very difficult target by bobbing and weaving frasier had to crouch rather than dance to get power into that great hook

Mr. Ryan
04-14-2006, 05:41 AM
This thread is ****ing bull****. Joe Frazier is the most underrated heavyweight champion of all time. Here's a guy who beat Muhammad Ali, and only lost to Ali and Foreman. In his aftermath laid Jerry Quarrey, Jimmy Ellis, Oscar Bonavena, and many other tough contenders. His left hook may be the greatest in boxing history.

Southpaw Stinger
04-14-2006, 06:58 AM
Frazier is one of the greatest of all time. I have him in my top 5 and everyone should have him in their top 10 IMO.

Frazier's 15th round
04-14-2006, 08:56 AM
Why would I have a screen name after Joe Frazier if I hated him so much? Of course this thread was a joke. I was thinking about doing something on Larry Holmes or George Foreman, but those would have been too easy. Frazier never ducked anyone, he would have beaten Ali at least once at any point in their careers, and he did have good defense.

Shavers actually made excuses to not step in the ring with Frazier, and Frazier easily handled Norton in sparring. Although I do think Joe should have fought Mac Foster instead of Ziggy, and either Norton or Lyle in 1975 instead of Jimmy Ellis. Having Foster and Norton on your resume looks a lot better.

THE REAL NINJA
04-14-2006, 09:42 AM
ali,louis,holmes,foreman,marciano,holyfield,lewis, dempsey,tyson,langford, not to say all would beat him but i rate them higher Bowe i would rate lower but i think he would KO Frazier
i admit i tke it back he's around top 10 or 15

The_One77
04-14-2006, 09:03 PM
i'd put him in my top 10

Skydog
04-14-2006, 11:58 PM
Why would I have a screen name after Joe Frazier if I hated him so much? Of course this thread was a joke. I was thinking about doing something on Larry Holmes or George Foreman, but those would have been too easy. Frazier never ducked anyone, he would have beaten Ali at least once at any point in their careers, and he did have good defense.

Shavers actually made excuses to not step in the ring with Frazier, and Frazier easily handled Norton in sparring. Although I do think Joe should have fought Mac Foster instead of Ziggy, and either Norton or Lyle in 1975 instead of Jimmy Ellis. Having Foster and Norton on your resume looks a lot better.


Wow. I'm so happy you were kidding. I was about to unleash a giant reply.

Skydog
04-14-2006, 11:59 PM
Also, even though he was kidding, it was not a gift decision by the judges. Frazier straight up dominated rounds 3-9, and Bonavena had some good moments in round 10.

Heckler
04-15-2006, 01:01 AM
Only one fighter won the largest, most important boxing match in history... and that was Joe Frazier.

Dempsey 1919
04-15-2006, 01:36 AM
Joe Frazier was not a great fighter

A honest and unbiased look at the overrated career of Joe Frazier.

ďJoeís gonna be smokiní aní I ainít even jokin but Iíll be peckiní and a pokiní and Iíll pour water on that smokiníĒ

Letís briefly go over the career of Frazier and the opponents he fought.

Mike Bruce (10-29). Frazierís ďhall of fameĒ career starts off on the right foot, correct? Actually, incorrect. In his second fight, Frazier meets up with this no name punk Bruce, and immediately gets floored in the first round. Against a bum like this! You need not look to the Foreman fights to see that Frazier was chinny. He was exposed right here. Frazier manages to get up off the canvas (where heíll spend a lot of time in his career) to knock out this ham and egger in Round 3. Bruce was starched by Cleveland Williams in one round, and he even lost to legendary tomato can Chuck Wepner. Other stellar losses on his resume include Sonny Andrews (4-12 career record), Charlie Emperor Harris (12-30, he certainly wasnít an emperor of boxing, maybe of getting knocked out), and Stamford Harris, and Tommy Hicks.

So, there you have it. Frazier is already shown to have a glass chin, and this will factor into his manager Yank Durhamís decisions on who Frazier fights in the future. Needless to say, Frazier will side step quite a few heavy hitters, instead choosing to beat up on guys he already took care of, and fighters that hit like girls. Anyways, after padding his record with guys like Charley Polite and Memphis Al Jones, Frazier faces his first real test in:

Oscar Bonavena (58-9). What happens? Frazier gets decked twice, almost losing by TKO. He barely escapes the round and manages to get a gift decision by the judges. People claim that Frazier was green while Oscar was a veteran, but Oscar only had 11 more pro fights than Frazier. Also, Bonavena as a fighter was quite overrated, simply because he fought in the 70ís. He was nothing more than an okay fighter with a stupid and akward style. He
wasnít very big, proving that Frazier canít win the big one against skilled men larger than himself, so he fights easy guys all the time.

Iíll take the time now to discuss Frazierís chin and his defense. Itís pointless to mention every single opponent and the times they rocked Frazier, because Iíd be here all night. EVERY guy he fought landed good hard shots on him, and stunned and staggered him. This includes good fighters like Ali, and even poor ones like Stander and Ramos. Now, you must wonder, how can all these guys land such clean shots all the time? It was because Frazierís pathetic excuse for defense. He had none. Bobbing and weaving never did much for him, except tire him out. He was basically a stationary target, and many opponents took advantage of this. But as mentioned, none of them could really hit, and Yank Durham should win some kind of award for making such a pathetic fighter like Frazier look good. Durham was one of the smartest managers ever. He even managed to weasel his way out of fights, as will be discussed a little later. Anyways, back to Joeís career. He beats up on an extremely old and shot Eddie Machen, and mows through stumble****s like Doug Jones and Jefferson Davis, before moving on to:

George Johnson (19-24). ďScrap IronĒ Johnson was his nickname. Seems fitting. You can find scraps like him in the local dumpster, which is where this fight took place. Some ****hole. Anyways, Georgie was obviously robbed of a decision here. Not many know the story of this fight. Frazier called GJ the toughest fighter he ever fought, and with good reason. The man beat the hell out of him all night. The fans went crazy every time George landed a punch (which, obviously, was quite often). But the judges were most likely bribed and gave the decision to an up and coming fighter rather than a guy with a losing career record. Yank probably paid them money. He certainly had enough, as the guy was a crook. I wouldnít be surprised if Frazier was in on it, as well. He always seemed pretty shady. So anyways, chalk up another loss for Frazier, but it was scored as a win.

How many gifts can a glass chinned fighter recieve in his career? How many big punchers and good fighters can one man duck before people start to raise questions? The proof is right here on paper, Frazier was a con. So, he moves on to beat up on ďThe Human Punching BagĒ George Chuvalo, as well as Tony Doyle and Marion Conner.

This is where things start to get interesting. Ali, at this point, has his title stripped, so an 8 man elimination tournament is held, with fighters such as Ellis, Quarry, Martin, and Spencer, and some other no names. Should be an easy path to the title for Frazier, right? Wrong. Frazier and Durham OPT OUT OF THE TOURNAMENT. See, Frazier is too lazy and too soft to fight more than twice a year, so he decides to take on:

Buster Mathis (30-4). A rematch of the Olympics. A quick little story about that. Frazier won the 1964 gold medal, but that was because Mathis was injured and had to leave the tournament. HE ALREADY BEAT FRAZIER. Frazier undeservingly won the gold medal in his place. But the truth was, Mathis was just a big, fat, lump of **** with no skills at all. Proves that Joe canít run with the big boys. Frazier gets lucky by TKOíing Mathis in Round 11. Most likely Mathis would have caught Joe on his china chin and down he goes. But, Frazier gets lucky, and wins the NYSAC heavyweight title.

He moves on to defend it against Manuel Ramos, who ended up with a losing record. In that fight, Ramos almost knocks Joe out with one punch, and that was all Manuel had. No chin, no speed, nothing else. Frazier then doubles up on Bonavena, which he likes to do, and then beats Ziggy in 36 seconds. Yeah, great title defenses. And I thought this guy was a top 10 heavyweight? People may reconsider after reading this. Things get interesting
when he squares off with:

Jerry Quarry (53-9). Quarry was a great fighter, who would have been champion if, one, he boxed against Frazier, or two, he slugged it out with Ellis. He simply fought stupid both times. He also cut very easily. Now, Frazier was a thug, which is well known. He could brawl anytime, as he normally does on weekends in the bars. Quarry foolishly decides to turn the match into a slugfest, resulting in his downfall. Fight is stopped after 7.

Frazier moves on to beat up an inactive Jimmy Ellis and light heavy Bob Foster. Another example where Cloverlay in general avoided big hitters. Frazier was set to fight Mac Foster, who recently admitted that he would have stopped Frazier faster than Foreman did. But, Yankís dog must have ate the contract, so the fight never came to be. This set the stage for The Fight of the Century, with:

just wondering, is this your way of trying to get people to like you? :D

hemichromis
04-15-2006, 04:03 PM
Only one fighter won the largest, most important boxing match in history... and that was Joe Frazier.
which match?

Dempsey 1919
04-15-2006, 08:32 PM
Only one fighter won the largest, most important boxing match in history... and that was Joe Frazier.

well, either him, joe louis, jack johnson, or gene tunney. :D

Frazier's 15th round
04-15-2006, 08:45 PM
just wondering, is this your way of trying to get people to like you?

No, I don't give a **** whether you like me or not. I did it to amuse myself.

Dempsey 1919
04-15-2006, 08:49 PM
Muhammad Ali (56-5). The best fighter Frazier ever faced. Alas, he was nowhere near his best as he had just had a long layoff, and had also barely trained for this fight. But, he still
manages to put Frazier in the hospital for 3 weeks, and was robbed of an obvious decision. Just look at Frazierís face to see who won that fight. Ali easily beat him in both rematches,
as well. Frazier barely won a round in either fight. Also, Ali hit like a little girl, proving that Frazier takes fights with sissy punchers all the time to make himself look good. But when put in with a good or even halfway decent fighter, he gets wrecked.

After taking the rest of the year off, and padding his horrid record with more bums, named Terry Daniels (35-31, after beating nobody any good) and Ron Stander, Frazier meets up with:

George Foreman (76-5). Extremely padded record, only fighting about 4 top 10 guys in the 70ís. George and his feet stuck in the mud style didnít even deserve a title shot, but Frazier figured he was another easy big man with no real boxing skills. He was right in that sense, but he forgot that he himself was not a great fighter, either. Foreman goes in and free swings all night, and bounces Frazier all over like a basketball. 6 knockdowns occur before the ref stops it. Glass Joe fails to impress once again (I think thatís how the guy from Punch Out got his name). Foreman would later be exposed in fights with Ali and even Jimmy Young. Those guys were clever enough to see that Foreman had no stamina, wasted all his energy throwing wild punches, and was an easy target. But Frazier was a cement headed bull, too stupid to box and move, so he walked right in to the flailing arms of this big turd George.

Frazier beats up on another big man named Joe Bugner. Frazier was wise in choosing this guy, as Durham had died by this point and Bugner had no skills. Ali then dances rings around Frazier. Frazier then decides to double up on Jerry Quarry and a shot Jimmy Ellis, before getting his ass kicked by Ali again, and finally getting whooped by that amateur Foreman again.

Now, the interesting thing about Joeís career after Ali 1, is that it was pathetic. Frazier side stepped so many big punchers, it was laughable. He was signed on to fight Earnie Shavers, who had a glass jaw, perhaps even worse than Frazierís, but Frazier knew Shavers would land one punch and it would be over. He also avoids Ken Norton and Ron Lyle, both of whom would have dispatched of him rather quickly. Ignore the stories about
how Norton and Frazier fought wars in sparring. Norton knocked him out easily many times. Eddie Futch knew Joe could never beat Ken, so he wouldnít allow the fight to happen. So Frazier doubles up on shot fighters before getting an undeserving title shot. And shocker of all shockers, he loses. He then comes back to fight a skill-less Jumbo Cummings, but gets a gift draw. Anyone who was there knows Floyd won that fight.

In conclusion, Frazier should not be even considered a top 50 heavyweight. He beat a shot Ali, and thatís all his legacy has to stand on. He ducked all the big punchers (even old man
Liston), and the only one he fought utterly destroyed him. Frazier had no chin, no defense, overrated offense, and overrated heart. He quit on his stool in Manila, and doubled up on easy victories. He even admits this in his autobiography, calling many of the guys he fought names like sissies, pansies, and dogmeat. The fact is, every legendary fighter would have made mincemeat out of this chinny thug. And thatís the final word.

if you don't mind ernie, i'd like to know what site you got these things from. it would be interesting to hear what they had to say about louis, foreman, dempsey, etc. think you could hook me up? :)

Frazier's 15th round
04-15-2006, 09:20 PM
I got the 'Ali was not a great fighter' from East Side Boxing. I made up the Frazier one myself.

Anyway, my thoughts on Louis/Foreman/Dempsey. Louis had a glass jaw and padded his record with the bum of the month. Marciano beat him all over the ring when they fought, proving that Louis was an overrated bum. Foreman's record was even more padded. He only beat a fat, lazy, more concerned with his music career than boxing Joe Frazier. He basically ducked everyone else like Quarry, and when he got a lucky shot in against Moorer (who was kicking his ass for 9 rounds) he avoids more fighters. Dempsey only fought one decent guy as well, and he lost 19 of 20 rounds this man, Gene Tunney. What was Dempsey's greatest win? Against the big, dumb, slow, no talent hack Jess Willard? Give me a break. All 3 are big bums.

Kid Achilles
04-15-2006, 09:25 PM
I hope the point of Frazier's thread is not lost on certain individuals who post on this forum...

Ted Spoon
04-16-2006, 01:30 PM
Without Joe Frazier, Ali's greatness dwindles, considerably.

Without Joe Frazier, Ali cannot boast 2-1 in their trilogy, which was considered great initially because of the fighter Frazier was n' how his style complemented Ali's.

Without Joe Frazier, George Foreman does not have his best win, which in turn lowers the significance of Ali's victory over George.

Joe Frazier's legacy is not only that of a great fighter, but it played a key role in underlining the significance of his rivals finest hours.

Joe Frazier's true greatness can never be over-stated, partly because it is always under-stated.

SuzieQ49
04-16-2006, 01:48 PM
Without Joe Frazier, Ali's greatness dwindles, considerably.

Without Joe Frazier, Ali cannot boast 2-1 in their trilogy, which was considered great initially because of the fighter Frazier was n' how his style complemented Ali's.

Without Joe Frazier, George Foreman does not have his best win, which in turn lowers the significance of Ali's victory over George.

Joe Frazier's legacy is not only that of a great fighter, but it played a key role in underlining the significance of his rivals finest hours.

Joe Frazier's true greatness can never be over-stated, partly because it is always under-stated.



welcome ted spoon! guys, ted is an extremley knowledable and articulate poster, and ted knows a great deal about old timers so listen up. it would be nice to have ted on board!

Imira
04-28-2006, 01:26 PM
:boxing:

Gotta love ol' Smokin' Joe!

brownpimp88
01-02-2007, 11:32 PM
Holyfield accomplished more than frazier, joe is just bitter cuz he's jealous. His claim to fame is beating an ali that took 3 years off. When holyfield beats tyson, thats the excuse they make, when joe does it its ok right, lol. Holyfield has beat a hall of famer like qawi twice, tyson twice, bowe, moorer and many b level fighters. What has frazier done besides beating ali and foster, yeah he beat b level fighters. So i dont know why frazier is held in such a high regard while holyfield is underrated like crazy. Are you guys mad that maybe holy and lennox are truly greats and you guys cant ur dick out of the old asses.

Dempsey 1919
01-03-2007, 01:36 AM
Holyfield accomplished more than frazier, joe is just bitter cuz he's jealous. His claim to fame is beating an ali that took 3 years off. When holyfield beats tyson, thats the excuse they make, when joe does it its ok right, lol. Holyfield has beat a hall of famer like qawi twice, tyson twice, bowe, moorer and many b level fighters. What has frazier done besides beating ali and foster, yeah he beat b level fighters. So i dont know why frazier is held in such a high regard while holyfield is underrated like crazy. Are you guys mad that maybe holy and lennox are truly greats and you guys cant ur dick out of the old asses.

Holyfield couldn't carry Frazier's jockstrap. You think the version of Tyson that Holyfield beat was better than he version of Ali that Frazier beat? Ali was an undefeated fighter coming off a stoppage of Oscar Bonavena who was never stopped before or since. Tyson was coming off of a win over Bruce Seldon. Who? Exactly! Not many people would be able to beat Ali that night. I couyld name more that could beat the aforementioned version of Tyson.

Rockin'
01-03-2007, 01:43 AM
Holyfield couldn't carry Frazier's jockstrap.

It seems in the thread that the thread starter was trying to dishonor Frazier, no need to try and dishonor Holyfield who was an honorable champion.............Rockin'

eazy_mas
01-03-2007, 02:11 AM
Joe Frazier have greatest bob and weaving of the body of all time.

without Frazier part of Tyson style would be there.

Apollo Crete ducked him too so you gotta give creidt for a guy as much talented and maybe the 1 p4p slugger of all time

brownpimp88
01-03-2007, 02:50 AM
Holyfield couldn't carry Frazier's jockstrap. You think the version of Tyson that Holyfield beat was better than he version of Ali that Frazier beat? Ali was an undefeated fighter coming off a stoppage of Oscar Bonavena who was never stopped before or since. Tyson was coming off of a win over Bruce Seldon. Who? Exactly! Not many people would be able to beat Ali that night. I couyld name more that could beat the aforementioned version of Tyson.

Haha, its very easy to say that you can name people that would have beat tyson nowdays. Back then tyson was thought of as invincible, dont try and change history. Bonavena is in the same league as guys like bruno, he aint anything special. Most guys frazier beat aint anything special anyways, are they? Holyfield still has wins over bowe, qawi and moorer on top of that. What does frazier have smart guy? Jimmy Ellis and Buster Mathis, lol.

Ring Magazine did the 80 best fighters of the last 80 years, and they ranked holyfield well ahead of your boy frazier, so i guess joe couldnt handle his jockstraps.

The Surgeon
01-03-2007, 08:14 AM
Cum to think of it I cant think of a fight id rather see than Frazier vs Holyfeild! BOTH GREAT fighters, no question!

Yaman
01-03-2007, 08:44 AM
Haha, its very easy to say that you can name people that would have beat tyson nowdays. Back then tyson was thought of as invincible, dont try and change history. Bonavena is in the same league as guys like bruno, he aint anything special. Most guys frazier beat aint anything special anyways, are they? Holyfield still has wins over bowe, qawi and moorer on top of that. What does frazier have smart guy? Jimmy Ellis and Buster Mathis, lol.

Ring Magazine did the 80 best fighters of the last 80 years, and they ranked holyfield well ahead of your boy frazier, so i guess joe couldnt handle his jockstraps.

Its just another attempt to hype Frazier up, and by that, overrating Ali.

Dempsey 1919
01-03-2007, 12:08 PM
Haha, its very easy to say that you can name people that would have beat tyson nowdays. Back then tyson was thought of as invincible, dont try and change history. Bonavena is in the same league as guys like bruno, he aint anything special. Most guys frazier beat aint anything special anyways, are they? Holyfield still has wins over bowe, qawi and moorer on top of that. What does frazier have smart guy? Jimmy Ellis and Buster Mathis, lol.

Ring Magazine did the 80 best fighters of the last 80 years, and they ranked holyfield well ahead of your boy frazier, so i guess joe couldnt handle his jockstraps.

Again, my point is that the version of Ali that Frazier beat was waaaay better than the version of Tyson that Holyfield beat.

End of discussion.

Dempsey 1919
01-03-2007, 12:09 PM
Its just another attempt to hype Frazier up, and by that, overrating Ali.

Why don't you read the whole post before jumping to the conclusions.

brownpimp88
01-03-2007, 12:22 PM
Again, my point is that the version of Ali that Frazier beat was waaaay better than the version of Tyson that Holyfield beat.

End of discussion.

You cant ****in prove it, end of discussion. It was a legit win for holyfiled, whether you like it or not. Hell ali had trouble against a fighter like norton 3 times, holyfield and lennox are way better than norton.

Brockton Lip
01-03-2007, 01:22 PM
You cant ****in prove it, end of discussion. It was a legit win for holyfiled, whether you like it or not. Hell ali had trouble against a fighter like norton 3 times, holyfield and lennox are way better than norton.

What is it with you and the new fighters? Is it because thats who you looked up to? Holyfield and Lennox are great but to say they are way better than Norton is just not true. Prime Norton was a dangerous fighter and I pick him to beat Holyfield. Possibly Lennox as well but I think his power would be too much.

brownpimp88
01-03-2007, 01:55 PM
What is it with you and the new fighters? Is it because thats who you looked up to? Holyfield and Lennox are great but to say they are way better than Norton is just not true. Prime Norton was a dangerous fighter and I pick him to beat Holyfield. Possibly Lennox as well but I think his power would be too much.

Are you joking, both will go down as better fighters than norton. Look up any Ring magazine rankings and u have both of these guys ahead of norton. Yeah what is wrong with liking the guys u idolized, i dont have to pretend i watched boxing from the old days. You can debate frazier and liston are better, not ken norton, no ****in way!

Dempsey 1919
01-03-2007, 02:13 PM
You cant ****in prove it, end of discussion. It was a legit win for holyfiled, whether you like it or not. Hell ali had trouble against a fighter like norton 3 times, holyfield and lennox are way better than norton.

I admit that Tyson was a very good win for Holyfield. All I'm saying is that Ali was a much bertter win for Frazier.

IMO there are less people who would beat the 1971 version of Ali than people who would beat the 1996 version of Tyson.

In my opinion:

Prime Muhammad Ali UD 15 1971 Ali

Prime Sonny Liston TKO 13 1971 Ali

Prime George Foreman UD 15 1971 Ali

Prime Mike Tyson UD 15 1971 Ali

Prime Joe Louis UD 15 1971 Ali

Prime Joe Frazier UD 15 1971 Ali (this actually happened)


and...


Prime Muhammad Ali TKO 6 1996 Tyson

Prime Sonny Liston KO 2 1996 Tyson

Prime George Foreman TKO 2 1996 Tyson

Prime Mike Tyson KO 8 1996 Tyson

Prime Joe Louis TKO 10 1996 Tyson

Prime Larry Holmes TKO 10 1996 Tyson

Prime Joe Frazier TKO 7 1996 Tyson

Prime Jack Johnson UD 15 1996 Tyson

Prime Lennox Lewis UD 15 1996 Tyson

Prime Evander Holyfield TKO 9 1996 Tyson

Prime Riddick Bowe UD 15 1996 Tyson

Southpaw Stinger
01-03-2007, 02:16 PM
I admit that Tyson was a very good win for Holyfield. All I'm saying is that Ali was a much bertter win for Frazier.

IMO there are less people who would beat the 1971 version of Ali than people who would beat the 1996 version of Tyson.

In my opinion:

Prime Muhammad Ali UD 15 1971 Ali

Prime Sonny Liston TKO 13 1971 Ali

Prime George Foreman UD 15 1971 Ali

Prime Mike Tyson UD 15 1971 Ali

Prime Joe Louis UD 15 1971 Ali

Prime Joe Frazier UD 15 1971 Ali (this actually happened)


and...


Prime Muhammad Ali TKO 6 1996 Tyson

Prime Sonny Liston KO 2 1996 Tyson

Prime George Foreman TKO 2 1996 Tyson

Prime Mike Tyson KO 8 1996 Tyson

Prime Joe Louis TKO 10 1996 Tyson

Prime Larry Holmes TKO 10 1996 Tyson

Prime Joe Frazier TKO 7 1996 Tyson

Prime Jack Johnson UD 15 1996 Tyson

Prime Lennox Lewis UD 15 1996 Tyson

Prime Evander Holyfield TKO 9 1996 Tyson

Prime Riddick Bowe UD 15 1996 Tyson

they would be 12 rounders though.


but I agree with you on most accounts.

brownpimp88
01-03-2007, 02:18 PM
I admit that Tyson was a very good win for Holyfield. All I'm saying is that Ali was a much bertter win for Frazier.

IMO there are less people who would beat the 1971 version of Ali than people who would beat the 1996 version of Tyson.

In my opinion:

Prime Muhammad Ali UD 15 1971 Ali

Prime Sonny Liston TKO 13 1971 Ali

Prime George Foreman UD 15 1971 Ali

Prime Mike Tyson UD 15 1971 Ali

Prime Joe Louis UD 15 1971 Ali

Prime Joe Frazier UD 15 1971 Ali (this actually happened)


and...


Prime Muhammad Ali TKO 6 1996 Tyson

Prime Sonny Liston KO 2 1996 Tyson

Prime George Foreman TKO 2 1996 Tyson

Prime Mike Tyson KO 8 1996 Tyson

Prime Joe Louis TKO 10 1996 Tyson

Prime Larry Holmes TKO 10 1996 Tyson

Prime Joe Frazier TKO 7 1996 Tyson

Prime Jack Johnson UD 15 1996 Tyson

Prime Lennox Lewis UD 15 1996 Tyson

Prime Evander Holyfield TKO 9 1996 Tyson

Prime Riddick Bowe UD 15 1996 Tyson

Holyfield has a better overall resume than frazier does, thats my whole point man. Frazier quit by the age of 32, so he would have had more losses if he kept boxing. His big wins are over ali and foster. The rest of the guys he beat were contenders, they arent big time boxers. Ring Magazine considers holyfield to be the superior boxer and i agree. He's beaten riddick bowe once, and bowe would have crushed all of fraziers opponents except ali and george. He beat qawi twice, who is in the hall of fame. He has beat more than 10 different heavyweight champs in total.

When he fought tyson in 1996, tyson was the favourite to win the fight. Everyone was riding his dick, i'm surprised you didn't know that. I dont think jack johnson would have ever beat tyson, thats my opinion. I have seen footage of him and i consider bowe and tyson superior to him.

Southpaw Stinger
01-03-2007, 02:20 PM
Holyfield has a better overall resume than frazier does, thats my whole point man. Frazier quit by the age of 32, so he would have had more losses if he kept boxing. His big wins are over ali and foster. The rest of the guys he beat were contenders, they arent big time boxers. Ring Magazine considers holyfield to be the superior boxer and i agree. He's beaten riddick bowe once, and bowe would have crushed all of fraziers opponents except ali and george. He beat qawi twice, who is in the hall of fame. He has beat more than 10 different heavyweight champs in total.

When he fought tyson in 1996, tyson was the favourite to win the fight. Everyone was riding his dick, i'm surprised you didn't know that. I dont think jack johnson would have ever beat tyson, thats my opinion. I have seen footage of him and i consider bowe and tyson superior to him.

gotta agree with you there. Tyson, Bowe and Holyfield are superior to Johnson in my oppinion.

Dempsey 1919
01-03-2007, 02:51 PM
[/B]

gotta agree with you there. Tyson, Bowe and Holyfield are superior to Johnson in my oppinion.

A prime Tyson is superior to Johnson, I agree. But this is a 1996 past prime Tyson we are talking about. A prime Johnson would easily outbox this version of Tyson, as he was slower, did not go to the body as much as before, lost the technique to throw six punch combos in uncanny variations, and had way less stamina. Johnson's defense was way better than Lennox Lewis', so if Lewis outboxes him, so does Johnson.

However, I don't think Johnson would lose to any version of Holyfield and Bowe. Johnson was more skilled than either of these men. He was a smarter boxer than Holyfield who carried a bigger punch, plus Holfield had a tendency to brawl, which Johnson didn't. Johnson knew what he was doing in the ring, and he was very tricky. And Bowe would have no more than a puncher's chance against Johnson. His defense was average at best and Johnson would take advantage of every mistake he made.

hemichromis
01-03-2007, 02:59 PM
Without Joe Frazier, Ali's greatness dwindles, considerably.

Without Joe Frazier, Ali cannot boast 2-1 in their trilogy, which was considered great initially because of the fighter Frazier was n' how his style complemented Ali's.

Without Joe Frazier, George Foreman does not have his best win, which in turn lowers the significance of Ali's victory over George.

Joe Frazier's legacy is not only that of a great fighter, but it played a key role in underlining the significance of his rivals finest hours.

Joe Frazier's true greatness can never be over-stated, partly because it is always under-stated.

without Ali coming back fraziers greatness dwindles:

wihtout ali frazier did not show his toughness he would have been considered a paper champion with Ali being the REAL champ.

Frazier would have lost against foreman further proving that he wasn;t a REAL champ.

without that trilogy we probably wouldn't consider frazier in the top 25 of boxers but wiht it he should be in anybodies top ten.

they both owe each other alot and yet they still can't get along!

brownpimp88
01-03-2007, 02:59 PM
Johnson had a weak chin, holyfield's was rock solid.

Dempsey 1919
01-03-2007, 03:01 PM
Johnson had a weak chin, holyfield's was rock solid.

Chin would not be much of a factor here, since Holyfield did not carry a particularly devastating punch.

brownpimp88
01-03-2007, 03:05 PM
Chin would not be much of a factor here, since Holyfield did not carry a particularly devastating punch.

Bowe hunts guys with weak chins. Imagine bowe vs norton, i see a 3rd round ko for sure. Johnson was a guy that was the man in his era, i respect him for that. However, i dont think he's that great in head to head matchups.

Dempsey 1919
01-03-2007, 03:08 PM
Bowe hunts guys with weak chins.

And Johnson hunts guys with poor defense and bad stamina.:boxing:

brownpimp88
01-03-2007, 03:16 PM
And Johnson hunts guys with poor defense and bad stamina.:boxing:

I dont think it would last very long, he has the size and reach to keep johnson off and then he can go for the ko. Back then fighters were smaller and thats what matters.

Dempsey 1919
01-03-2007, 03:18 PM
I dont think it would last very long, he has the size and reach to keep johnson off and then he can go for the ko. Back then fighters were smaller and thats what matters.

Keep Johnson off? On the contrary, it is Bowe who would be coming forward, as Johnson in his flatfooted stance would lure in fighters who think he's slow, and he would be moving back and countering, taking advantage of Bowe's mistakes. Johnson wins a comfortable UD in this one for sure.

Hydro
01-03-2007, 03:19 PM
And Johnson hunts guys with poor defense and bad stamina.:boxing:

Bowe had poor defense, but his stamina was not weak at all.

For instance, he threw lots of punches in the Holyfield fights, and finished strong too, when it went 12. Throwing lots of punches til the end, even in the 2nd fight when his conditioning wasn't too good.

Dempsey 1919
01-03-2007, 04:04 PM
Bowe had poor defense, but his stamina was not weak at all.

For instance, he threw lots of punches in the Holyfield fights, and finished strong too, when it went 12. Throwing lots of punches til the end, even in the 2nd fight when his conditioning wasn't too good.

Bowe's stamina wasn't terrible, but it didn't compare to Johnson's.

brownpimp88
01-04-2007, 01:01 AM
Bowe's stamina wasn't terrible, but it didn't compare to Johnson's.

Yeah johnson is gonna beat a guy thats much bigger than him and hits harder than him, get real.

Kid Achilles
01-04-2007, 01:16 AM
Yeah imagine someone in boxing beating someone who's bigger and hits harder than them. Unprecedented. You're clearly a student of the sport.

brownpimp88
01-04-2007, 01:23 AM
Yeah imagine someone in boxing beating someone who's bigger and hits harder than them. Unprecedented. You're clearly a student of the sport.

You ever hear of the word EVOLUTION? Boxing has evolved greatly since those days and most people would agree bowe would have knocked him out.

hemichromis
01-04-2007, 02:06 AM
You ever hear of the word EVOLUTION? Boxing has evolved greatly since those days and most people would agree bowe would have knocked him out.


birds evolved from the t-rex(and other dinosaurs) would you favour a bird in a fight?
just because things are new doesn't mean they are also superior!

Dempsey 1919
01-04-2007, 02:37 AM
Yeah imagine someone in boxing beating someone who's bigger and hits harder than them. Unprecedented. You're clearly a student of the sport.

Kid Achilles, where were you when I needed you in the fantasy fight section?:nonono:

Dempsey 1919
01-04-2007, 02:38 AM
birds evolved from the t-rex(and other dinosaurs) would you favour a bird in a fight?
just because things are new doesn't mean they are also superior!

brownpimp88, :owned:

Kid Achilles
01-04-2007, 04:57 PM
Damn Butterfly, I can't become involved in every fantasy fight thread ever. What was the discussion over?

Dempsey 1919
01-06-2007, 12:39 AM
Damn Butterfly, I can't become involved in every fantasy fight thread ever. What was the discussion over?

Well, first it was a debate over who would win between Joe Frazier and Lennox Lewis with "brownpimp88", (if you know who he is), and somehow, it got escalated into a debate on who would win between Jack Johnson and Riddick friggin' Bowe! I couldn't believe it. That pinhead actually said that Bowe would crush Johnson just because he was bigger than him, and I read your post displaying sarcam about overrating size in a fantasy matchups, and I thought that if you said that in the fantasy thread I was on, it would have helped my argument.

Kid Achilles
01-06-2007, 03:04 PM
Brownpimp doesn't know anything about boxing history, don't even waste time arguing with him. He probably thinks they actually just slugged it out in the 1900's, and no one had the ability to evade a punch by that point. One of those "Ali was the first defensive boxer", clueless idiots.

brownpimp88
01-06-2007, 04:23 PM
Brownpimp doesn't know anything about boxing history, don't even waste time arguing with him. He probably thinks they actually just slugged it out in the 1900's, and no one had the ability to evade a punch by that point. One of those "Ali was the first defensive boxer", clueless idiots.

No, i dont need to bother wasting time with you, i have found out from your previous posts that you know nothing. You rank a guy that you have never even seen in a fight as your top 3 p4p of all time, lol. You want the white guys of the old era to be ranked high in ur list, i get it.

Kid Achilles
01-06-2007, 05:06 PM
I do my rankings by accomplishments, not who I think would win to head to head matchups. Greb's accomplishments are up there with the very best. Look at the legends he beat, many of whom were physically bigger than Greb himself.

Any objective boxing fan who ranks fighters by accomplishments (the only realistic way to do as no one has a ****ing clue how a fight between fighters from different eras would go) has to have Greb in their top five P4P.

brownpimp88
01-06-2007, 06:58 PM
I do my rankings by accomplishments, not who I think would win to head to head matchups. Greb's accomplishments are up there with the very best. Look at the legends he beat, many of whom were physically bigger than Greb himself.

Any objective boxing fan who ranks fighters by accomplishments (the only realistic way to do as no one has a ****ing clue how a fight between fighters from different eras would go) has to have Greb in their top five P4P.

Ring doesn't put him in top 5 p4p based on acomplishments. Willie pep i respect cuz he's great, marciano was great but not top 3 heavyweights of all time. Greb on the other hand is garbage. The footage of him on websites were realeased in 1991 and eversince then, historians have questioned his legitimacy. Why wouldn't they, he shows ****ty technique in shadowboxing, sparring, he punches the bags at such a slow rate.

Dempsey 1919
01-06-2007, 07:33 PM
Ring doesn't put him in top 5 p4p based on acomplishments. Willie pep i respect cuz he's great, marciano was great but not top 3 heavyweights of all time. Greb on the other hand is garbage. The footage of him on websites were realeased in 1991 and eversince then, historians have questioned his legitimacy. Why wouldn't they, he shows ****ty technique in shadowboxing, sparring, he punches the bags at such a slow rate.

Anyone who could beat Gene Tunney is not garbage.

brownpimp88
01-06-2007, 07:44 PM
Anyone who could beat Gene Tunney is not garbage.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPOj1VEc3MY
what great punching technique!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vE6I-TUBMi0&mode=related&search=
If you saw me spar like this, you would call me a ****in bum.

Dempsey 1919
01-07-2007, 02:46 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPOj1VEc3MY
what great punching technique!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vE6I-TUBMi0&mode=related&search=
If you saw me spar like this, you would call me a ****in bum.

Sparring doesn't mean anything.

brownpimp88
01-07-2007, 02:52 AM
Sparring doesn't mean anything.

Roy and b-hop wouldnt spar like that, they have boxing skill. The footwork, head movement and combos that roy shows in his sparring is identical to his fights. Yet u expect greb to be a god in the ring even though he fights like a goof in training?

If i posted a video sparring like that, you would call me a scrub.