View Full Version : Ali is overated thread


SuzieQ49
04-12-2006, 09:27 AM
now that butterfly is gone we can make "ali sux and ali is overated threads".


ali is overated cause


- he lost to a blown up light-H but got a gift decision

- he was nearly knocked out by a 183lb man with 1 punch but his trainer saved his ass

- he wanted to quit on his stool vs liston, but his trainer once again had to save his ass

- liston took a dive in both bouts, ali would never beat a prime liston


- ali lost all 3 fights to ken norton. the judges however gave ali gifts.


- the only matchup where ali-frazier fought closest to there prime, frazier won handily.

- he recieved several gift decisions in the 1970s young, shavers, norton III, frazier II, etc

- he dogded foreman in a rematch after getting lucky in the first fight because foreman fought the dumbest fight of all time.

- his 60s title reign is a joke it consists of....

*a shot cleveland williams, literally and figuratively

* a far past his prime zora folley

* bad back patterson whose back was so bad he couldnt even hunch over

* a fighter who went down from a punch which didnt land

* a 6'6 uncoordinated freak who is perhaps the most boring fighter of all time

* a canadian human punching bag

* a european fighter who is perhaps the worst challenger to ever get a title shot

* a british champion who cuts more easily than scissors


- he created the worst linear heavyweight champion of all time in leon spinx

The Noose
04-12-2006, 09:40 AM
Its no fun if Butterfly isnt here to piss off.

Plus the 'provoke Butterfly' threads have been done to death.

Southpaw Stinger
04-12-2006, 10:30 AM
Indeed, these thread were only around to annoy butterfly so you can stop now before it becomes your obsession!

Frazier's 15th round
04-12-2006, 11:37 AM
SuzieQ is 100 percent correct. Ali was given too many gift decisions. Even his loss versus Spinks was a SD, even though Ali was battered all over the ring. Basically, half the people Ali fought made him look like a fool. Doug Jones was robbed. Banks and Cooper floored him, and as mentioned, Dundee cheated to save Ali from losing. Liston didn't even bother training for the first fight, and took a dive in the second. Ali then beats such amazing competition as Brian London and literally shot Big Cat Williams. Chuvalo, a human punching bag, made Ali piss blood for a week after the fight. He then sticks his thumb in Terrell's eye three times and taunts a blind fighter. He beats up on injured, way past prime Patterson, and was getting beaten up by 35 year old Zora Folley before he got a lucky shot in.

So, he comes back, gets lucky by cutting Quarry above the eye just as Quarry started to warm up. Bonavena's akward style made Ali look clueless. He then gets his ass handed to him by Frazier, and it looked like Ali barely won a single round the whole night, except maybe the 9th. By the 5th, Frazier was just laughing at this big bum Ali. Also, Frazier was blind in one eye, and just unloaded his left hook the whole time because he couldn't see where he was aiming his right. Ali then gets back on the right track by fighting legends such as Jurgen Blin, tomato can Chuvalo once again (Ali tends to beat up on guys he already wiped out before) and I think Patterson again, as well as a shot Buster Mathis. Ken Norton breaks his jaw and was nearly robbed, earning a split decision. He then gets robbed for real the second time around.

Ali then goes on to fight Frazier, who is more concerned in his music career than boxing by then. Frazier, even though he doesn't give two ****s about boxing anymore, gets robbed of a win. Ali manages to beat up on an overrated George Foreman, who looked like a drunk bum and also had a very padded record. George, with his feet stuck in the mud, struggled with every clever boxer put in front of him. Foreman, a free-swinging amateur, showed his pathetic excuse for stamina by tiring out after about 4 rounds. After winning the title, Ali gets knocked down by Chuck Wepner, who was absolute rubbish. No boxing skills at all. Ali then fights a decent but nothing special Ron Lyle, and was getting beat before the ref prematurely stopped the fight, saving Ali once again. Frazier then beats up on Ali once again in the Thrilla, but Frazier's corner wouldn't let him out. Ali then pads his record with more bums like Richard Dunn and Alfredo Evangelista. He even fights glass jawed Earnie Shavers, who lost to every good fighter he faced, and even some lesser fighters like Walter Santemore and Ron Stander.

On to Spinks. An amateur with 7 fights under his belt, he pounds Ali from pillar to post all night, and only gets a split. Spinks' career record is very pathetic, he even lost to a guy with a career record of 3-53-1. Ali retires, and comes back to get his butt whipped by Holmes and Berbick (another ham and egger).

And Ali gets called the greatest because he can run his mouth. Joe Louis would have dispatched of him in one round.

Easy-E
04-12-2006, 11:43 AM
SuzieQ is 100 percent correct. Ali was given too many gift decisions. Even his loss versus Spinks was a SD, even though Ali was battered all over the ring. Basically, half the people Ali fought made him look like a fool. Doug Jones was robbed. Banks and Cooper floored him, and as mentioned, Dundee cheated to save Ali from losing. Liston didn't even bother training for the first fight, and took a dive in the second. Ali then beats such amazing competition as Brian London and literally shot Big Cat Williams. Chuvalo, a human punching bag, made Ali piss blood for a week after the fight. He then sticks his thumb in Terrell's eye three times and taunts a blind fighter. He beats up on injured, way past prime Patterson, and was getting beaten up by 35 year old Zora Folley before he got a lucky shot in.

So, he comes back, gets lucky by cutting Quarry above the eye just as Quarry started to warm up. Bonavena's akward style made Ali look clueless. He then gets his ass handed to him by Frazier, and it looked like Ali barely won a single round the whole night, except maybe the 9th. By the 5th, Frazier was just laughing at this big bum Ali. Also, Frazier was blind in one eye, and just unloaded his left hook the whole time because he couldn't see where he was aiming his right. Ali then gets back on the right track by fighting legends such as Jurgen Blin, tomato can Chuvalo once again (Ali tends to beat up on guys he already wiped out before) and I think Patterson again, as well as a shot Buster Mathis. Ken Norton breaks his jaw and was nearly robbed, earning a split decision. He then gets robbed for real the second time around.

Ali then goes on to fight Frazier, who is more concerned in his music career than boxing by then. Frazier, even though he doesn't give two ****s about boxing anymore, gets robbed of a win. Ali manages to beat up on an overrated George Foreman, who looked like a drunk bum and also had a very padded record. George, with his feet stuck in the mud, struggled with every clever boxer put in front of him. Foreman, a free-swinging amateur, showed his pathetic excuse for stamina by tiring out after about 4 rounds. After winning the title, Ali gets knocked down by Chuck Wepner, who was absolute rubbish. No boxing skills at all. Ali then fights a decent but nothing special Ron Lyle, and was getting beat before the ref prematurely stopped the fight, saving Ali once again. Frazier then beats up on Ali once again in the Thrilla, but Frazier's corner wouldn't let him out. Ali then pads his record with more bums like Richard Dunn and Alfredo Evangelista. He even fights glass jawed Earnie Shavers, who lost to every good fighter he faced, and even some lesser fighters like Walter Santemore and Ron Stander.

On to Spinks. An amateur with 7 fights under his belt, he pounds Ali from pillar to post all night, and only gets a split. Spinks' career record is very pathetic, he even lost to a guy with a career record of 3-53-1. Ali retires, and comes back to get his butt whipped by Holmes and Berbick (another ham and egger).

And Ali gets called the greatest because he can run his mouth. Joe Louis would have dispatched of him in one round.

thres no way in hell fraizer won that second fight
foreman was a beast, and would have ko'd lewis early.
ali would beat louis, and yes, after 50 something fights filled with punishment, he began to slow down...it happens to all boxers

Easy-E
04-12-2006, 11:48 AM
now that butterfly is gone we can make "ali sux and ali is overated threads".


ali is overated cause


- he lost to a blown up light-H but got a gift decision

- he was nearly knocked out by a 183lb man with 1 punch but his trainer saved his ass

- he wanted to quit on his stool vs liston, but his trainer once again had to save his ass

- liston took a dive in both bouts, ali would never beat a prime liston


- ali lost all 3 fights to ken norton. the judges however gave ali gifts.


- the only matchup where ali-frazier fought closest to there prime, frazier won handily.

- he recieved several gift decisions in the 1970s young, shavers, norton III, frazier II, etc

- he dogded foreman in a rematch after getting lucky in the first fight because foreman fought the dumbest fight of all time.

- his 60s title reign is a joke it consists of....

*a shot cleveland williams, literally and figuratively

* a far past his prime zora folley

* bad back patterson whose back was so bad he couldnt even hunch over

* a fighter who went down from a punch which didnt land

* a 6'6 uncoordinated freak who is perhaps the most boring fighter of all time

* a canadian human punching bag

* a european fighter who is perhaps the worst challenger to ever get a title shot

* a british champion who cuts more easily than scissors


- he created the worst linear heavyweight champion of all time in leon spinx

the fraizer fight was a close one, idk what the hell your talking about, ali beat a prime liston, coming off the two best and biggest wins of his career. liston quit bc he never could have beaten ali and he knew it...oh, and why dont you put icy-hot in your eyes and see if you feel like taking punches for three minutes. then get back to me

RAESAAD
04-12-2006, 11:49 AM
This thread is Merely an opinion. :boxing:

Spinz
04-12-2006, 12:59 PM
the cold truth.

and people laughed when i made a thread about rjj vs. ali.

Kid Achilles
04-12-2006, 01:03 PM
Liston was nowhere near his prime in that fight. He was an OLD man in boxing years. Anyone who saw Liston in person said that he looked much, much, older than he claimed to be.

The_One77
04-12-2006, 01:31 PM
blah blah blah......if the decisions didn't go to him, they would of just said that the other guy had a gift decision too and Ali was robbed. He is the champion, ofcourse he is going to get the benefit of the doubt

sleazyfellow
04-12-2006, 03:00 PM
i dont overrate ali i think hes top 3 material of course, but ur bamboozling him talk about the decisions n stuff...didnt louis get a gift decision when jersey joe beat his ass in their first fight? he went down 2 times..but ah well anyways what happend to butterfly?? he got banned r what?

mokele
04-12-2006, 03:07 PM
I always had mixed feelings about Ali. It was hard not to because he was such a complicated, colorful character. Anyway, I agree that Ali seemed to get a few gift decisions during his career, and the most obvious ones for me were in his fights with Jimmy Young and his 3rd fight with Norton. The 2nd Ali-Norton fight was close, and I didn't feel that Norton was robbed. However, their 1st fight was a clear win for Norton, and should not have been a split decision. the judge who voted for Ali in the 1st Norton-Ali fight was either paid under the table or threatened into scoring the fight that way.

hemichromis
04-12-2006, 03:50 PM
ali may not be the greatest but he certainly was in the top 10 of the modern boxing era and possibly in the top 5

what evidence have you got about liston taking a dive

also all fighters start off fighting easy opponents, the first 20 fights of foreman make for entertaining viewing for about 30 mins!

Frazier's 15th round
04-12-2006, 07:04 PM
Probably more than Foreman's first 20 fights. Foreman fought tomato cans and stumblebums all the time before he got a title shot (in both careers).

Brassangel
04-12-2006, 07:50 PM
You know what? A lot of the most exciting fighters went up against 20+ Joe Nobodies at first. What separates them from any other professional fighter was their ability to crush the opposition mercilessly. I would like to see [you] walk up to any professional fighter, call them a bum, and expect to come out of it with anything less than a black eye. Foreman smashed other fighters who looked like tomato cans, because he was that much more powerful than they were. His level was many above theirs. Same with Liston, Lyle, Shavers, Frazier, etc. It's what separates a good or great professional from just another professional.

blockhead
04-12-2006, 08:21 PM
ali was great but placing him above joe louis on an all time heavyweights list should be considered an act of hubris against the boxing gods.

iwagh911
04-12-2006, 09:21 PM
What happend to butterfly?

Heckler
04-12-2006, 11:16 PM
now that butterfly is gone we can make "ali sux and ali is overated threads".


ali is overated cause


- he lost to a blown up light-H but got a gift decision

- he was nearly knocked out by a 183lb man with 1 punch but his trainer saved his ass

- he wanted to quit on his stool vs liston, but his trainer once again had to save his ass

- liston took a dive in both bouts, ali would never beat a prime liston


- ali lost all 3 fights to ken norton. the judges however gave ali gifts.


- the only matchup where ali-frazier fought closest to there prime, frazier won handily.

- he recieved several gift decisions in the 1970s young, shavers, norton III, frazier II, etc

- he dogded foreman in a rematch after getting lucky in the first fight because foreman fought the dumbest fight of all time.

- his 60s title reign is a joke it consists of....

*a shot cleveland williams, literally and figuratively

* a far past his prime zora folley

* bad back patterson whose back was so bad he couldnt even hunch over

* a fighter who went down from a punch which didnt land


* a 6'6 uncoordinated freak who is perhaps the most boring fighter of all time

* a canadian human punching bag

* a european fighter who is perhaps the worst challenger to ever get a title shot

* a british champion who cuts more easily than scissors


- he created the worst linear heavyweight champion of all time in leon spinx

Ali is overrated, but not for the reasons you mentioned. He is overrated because he is percieved as some kind of god thanks to the media. George Foreman wanted him to fight again when? 1976? When Ali shouldn't have even been in the ring, his management wouldn't let that happen. He beat Foreman fairly, he didn't get lucky he exposed him with a sound plan. He would beat Foreman again in a 1974 rematch, what was foreman going to do next time around? fight in a more measured fashion and Allow Ali to dictate the pace of the fight?

he recieved several gift decisions in the 1970s young, shavers, norton III, frazier II, etc - Decisions against young, shavers, and norton were questionable yes. But Frazier 2? your crazy if you think that was a GIFT decision.. no matter how many times i watch that fight Ali wins. It was CLOSE.

he was nearly knocked out by a 183lb man with 1 punch but his trainer saved his ass - The truth is he wasn't really saved, official timer shows that he only got a few seconds extra rest. That was a young naieve cassius clay whom hadn't reached his physical peak and this is quite obvious.

liston took a dive in both bouts, ali would never beat a prime liston - total bull**** Ali boxed the ears of Liston in the first fight, he was obviously trying... in vain. If he was going to throw the match he would fake a knockout, not mysteriously quit on his stool - a move that created doubt in peoples minds. Anywhere between 66 and 74 Ali would beat any version of Liston.

You can apply this kind of ridiculous arguement to essentially anyone rocky marciano, joe louis, mike tyson all quite easily. I assume its a joke, like Monte's. Im pretty sure this is nothing more then a troll... i dont think your that retarded.

Heckler
04-12-2006, 11:29 PM
SuzieQ is 100 percent correct. Ali was given too many gift decisions. Even his loss versus Spinks was a SD, even though Ali was battered all over the ring. Basically, half the people Ali fought made him look like a fool. Doug Jones was robbed. Banks and Cooper floored him, and as mentioned, Dundee cheated to save Ali from losing. Liston didn't even bother training for the first fight, and took a dive in the second. Ali then beats such amazing competition as Brian London and literally shot Big Cat Williams. Chuvalo, a human punching bag, made Ali piss blood for a week after the fight. He then sticks his thumb in Terrell's eye three times and taunts a blind fighter. He beats up on injured, way past prime Patterson, and was getting beaten up by 35 year old Zora Folley before he got a lucky shot in.

So, he comes back, gets lucky by cutting Quarry above the eye just as Quarry started to warm up. Bonavena's akward style made Ali look clueless. He then gets his ass handed to him by Frazier, and it looked like Ali barely won a single round the whole night, except maybe the 9th. By the 5th, Frazier was just laughing at this big bum Ali. Also, Frazier was blind in one eye, and just unloaded his left hook the whole time because he couldn't see where he was aiming his right. Ali then gets back on the right track by fighting legends such as Jurgen Blin, tomato can Chuvalo once again (Ali tends to beat up on guys he already wiped out before) and I think Patterson again, as well as a shot Buster Mathis. Ken Norton breaks his jaw and was nearly robbed, earning a split decision. He then gets robbed for real the second time around.

Ali then goes on to fight Frazier, who is more concerned in his music career than boxing by then. Frazier, even though he doesn't give two ****s about boxing anymore, gets robbed of a win. Ali manages to beat up on an overrated George Foreman, who looked like a drunk bum and also had a very padded record. George, with his feet stuck in the mud, struggled with every clever boxer put in front of him. Foreman, a free-swinging amateur, showed his pathetic excuse for stamina by tiring out after about 4 rounds. After winning the title, Ali gets knocked down by Chuck Wepner, who was absolute rubbish. No boxing skills at all. Ali then fights a decent but nothing special Ron Lyle, and was getting beat before the ref prematurely stopped the fight, saving Ali once again. Frazier then beats up on Ali once again in the Thrilla, but Frazier's corner wouldn't let him out. Ali then pads his record with more bums like Richard Dunn and Alfredo Evangelista. He even fights glass jawed Earnie Shavers, who lost to every good fighter he faced, and even some lesser fighters like Walter Santemore and Ron Stander.

On to Spinks. An amateur with 7 fights under his belt, he pounds Ali from pillar to post all night, and only gets a split. Spinks' career record is very pathetic, he even lost to a guy with a career record of 3-53-1. Ali retires, and comes back to get his butt whipped by Holmes and Berbick (another ham and egger).

And Ali gets called the greatest because he can run his mouth. Joe Louis would have dispatched of him in one round.

The fact that you always refer to Ali as a bum and constantly focus on negative aspects of his career and go on to say that Joe Louis would dispatch him in one round shows how ****en ridiculous you really are. He beats Ali up in Manila? Did you even watch the ****en fight? Was Ali the one getting beat from corner to corner in round 14 without retaliating? - Frazier lost, and they both inflicted ridiculous punishment on eachother.. get the **** over it. You even go on to use the Larry Holmes fight against him? well ****...

Frazier sucks massive **** because he got a beat down like the little ***** he was against Foreman in the rematch, he only lasted a few rounds in the first match which shows how inferior he is to Ali. He had a **** jaw and was wobbled by Ali throughout his career and had to be saved from the light hitting Ali in round two of his rematch. Before he beat Ali he was a nobody, Ali made him... now look at him, hes nothing more then a blind ass moaning little girl that continually cries about how Ali was so mean! No-one respects him, he was nothing more then an uncle tom

- We can apply this ridiculous slanted attitude to any fighter.

Verstyle
04-12-2006, 11:33 PM
What happend to butterfly?


i told him if he stayed off for a week he would get 50million. buuuuuut the day it was started he lost cause when the bet was on he was still online for another 30min :o

SuzieQ49
04-13-2006, 12:24 AM
btw, just in case anyone didnt get the jist, this whole thread is a joke. i was being sarcastic.

mokele
04-13-2006, 01:00 AM
btw, just in case anyone didnt get the jist, this whole thread is a joke. i was being sarcastic.

What's funny is that some of the things you said were close to the truth, but of course not all of them. The biggest mystery for me about Ali's career is why he nearly always won all the close fights that he was in, even fights that looked like he lost by a clear margin. Was it corruption? Were judges and\or referees paid off under the table? Or was it that Ali had such an unbelievable mystique that neither the referees nor the judges dared to score a round against him that was reasonably close? To this day I don't know, but I followed most of his career and remember well how much he was deified by the media. In my opinion he still is being deified!

Some people want to idolize him, others want to tear him down, but I would just like to know the simple truth.

Brassangel
04-13-2006, 01:43 AM
Ali wasn't a bum.

The fact of the matter is, he wasn't too fast for every other fighter in history. He wasn't unbeatable from 1964-1967; in fact, I think guys with good speed and applicable pressure such as Louis, Marciano, and even Tyson could have given Ali lots of trouble. Without butterfly1964 around at the moment, we are allowed to express the truth about Ali. The truth without having to read comments like, "Ali was the greatest fighter ever!"...even though his prime only consisted of 2-3 fights, according to butterfly. Or, "Ali KO'd Folley, which means he would tear Joe Louis's head off!"...even though Folley and Louis have nothing in common, including talent levels. And my personal favorites are the ones where he claims that because Ali beat some quasi-journeyman, who beat another journeyman at one time, then there's no way that Fighter X, who has a similar style to that journeyman, could have beaten Ali or the journeyman. Finally, there's the comments he throws around about how the top 32 fighters of all-time are all from the 1960's and 1970's; and you'll see it in his lists. Then he will claim that, of his favorite fighters, only 3-4 of them are from that era. Notice that he says "favorite" which was not the original subject being addressed.

Okay, this was quite a tangent, and I really don't have anything against the guy. But why in the heck was he allowed to post so prolifically given that his statements lacked any evidence (or logic, reason, etc.) whatsoever? Even so, I think we can probably stop picking on him.

Maybe he has suffered a recent loss and is taking some time off before trying to climb the ranks again.

juan esparza
04-13-2006, 03:18 AM
boxing is way to watered down now in these times u all ready know whos going to win even before they box and the fights u really want to watch never happen or fighters fight years after their prime so ali fought any body any time money wasnt an issue now its about the money or promoters dont take riskey fights because sometimes its there only champ and if there man losses there out of the game i want to watch antonio margarito -cotto or margarito-mayweter but it wont happen to much to loose nobody want antonio right now but 5 years from now everbody will want him .i dont think mayweter is that good and i really think castillio wooped his ass the first time margarito will knock him out

Heckler
04-13-2006, 07:16 AM
Ali wasn't a bum.

The fact of the matter is, he wasn't too fast for every other fighter in history. He wasn't unbeatable from 1964-1967; in fact, I think guys with good speed and applicable pressure such as Louis, Marciano, and even Tyson could have given Ali lots of trouble. Without butterfly1964 around at the moment, we are allowed to express the truth about Ali. The truth without having to read comments like, "Ali was the greatest fighter ever!"...even though his prime only consisted of 2-3 fights, according to butterfly. Or, "Ali KO'd Folley, which means he would tear Joe Louis's head off!"...even though Folley and Louis have nothing in common, including talent levels. And my personal favorites are the ones where he claims that because Ali beat some quasi-journeyman, who beat another journeyman at one time, then there's no way that Fighter X, who has a similar style to that journeyman, could have beaten Ali or the journeyman. Finally, there's the comments he throws around about how the top 32 fighters of all-time are all from the 1960's and 1970's; and you'll see it in his lists. Then he will claim that, of his favorite fighters, only 3-4 of them are from that era. Notice that he says "favorite" which was not the original subject being addressed.

Okay, this was quite a tangent, and I really don't have anything against the guy. But why in the heck was he allowed to post so prolifically given that his statements lacked any evidence (or logic, reason, etc.) whatsoever? Even so, I think we can probably stop picking on him.

Maybe he has suffered a recent loss and is taking some time off before trying to climb the ranks again.


Your right.... i personally believe ali to be the greatest, but to assume he couldn't be beaten is ****en ridiculous.

Frazier's 15th round
04-13-2006, 11:13 AM
Heckler, quit being a biased nuthugger and watch the Thrilla again. Frazier was winning that fight 8 rounds to 6, everyone who knows how to score a fight has it that way. Put the bias aside for once, will you? It's really irritating. Frazier was beating Ali from corner to corner all night, clearly winning rounds 3, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, and 11.

Brassangel
04-13-2006, 12:22 PM
Originally posted by Frazier's 15th round
Heckler, quit being a biased nuthugger and watch the Thrilla again. Frazier was winning that fight 8 rounds to 6, everyone who knows how to score a fight has it that way. Put the bias aside for once, will you? It's really irritating. Frazier was beating Ali from corner to corner all night, clearly winning rounds 3, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, and 11.

You just posted in the "Frazier wasn't great" thread that Ali clearly won all three of these fights.

Props to Heckler for reading my post.

SonnyG8R
04-13-2006, 02:08 PM
I am an Ali fan and I think that he was the greatest heavyweight of all time because he fought and beat the best competition. He did "win" his share of close fights and his charisma might have had something to do with it. However, there is a difference between a close decision and a gift. That is something that way too many people on this site have a hard time differentiating between. Either that or they don't know how to properly score a fight. Anyway, I think Ali was not as good as his some of his fans and some of the media would have you believe, and not as bad as his haters and detractors would have you believe.

juan esparza
04-14-2006, 12:16 AM
back in those days in order to be champ u had to knok out the champ because their wasnt any chumps everybodywas good and every body had a decent chin boxing was a sport now its about the money and whoever sells seats is going to be champ thell hand a beltto him money money

osamabinwayne
04-14-2006, 01:01 AM
Boxing is too inconclusive. Marciano would defeat Ali once out of 3 times. Foreman may have demolish Marciano but look what Frazier did (the guy was in the hospital for several months) to Ali. Marcino is a upgrade to Frazier and he could very well defeated Ali. Foreman probably would of destroyed Rocky (bad styles mathup)
Ali probably would of KO foreman but Ali probably could of defeated Rocky. Boxing is too inconsited and the best we could do is give in out oponions. Just IMO
.

King Koyle
04-14-2006, 10:05 AM
I wouldn't say Ali is overrated.But he did sometimes struggle
with lesser opposition.But he looked great when it really
counted.Against Foreman,Frazier,Liston,ETC.

Dempsey 1919
04-15-2006, 12:59 AM
now that butterfly is gone we can make "ali sux and ali is overated threads".


ali is overated cause


- he lost to a blown up light-H but got a gift decision

- he was nearly knocked out by a 183lb man with 1 punch but his trainer saved his ass

- he wanted to quit on his stool vs liston, but his trainer once again had to save his ass

- liston took a dive in both bouts, ali would never beat a prime liston


- ali lost all 3 fights to ken norton. the judges however gave ali gifts.


- the only matchup where ali-frazier fought closest to there prime, frazier won handily.

- he recieved several gift decisions in the 1970s young, shavers, norton III, frazier II, etc

- he dogded foreman in a rematch after getting lucky in the first fight because foreman fought the dumbest fight of all time.

- his 60s title reign is a joke it consists of....

*a shot cleveland williams, literally and figuratively

* a far past his prime zora folley

* bad back patterson whose back was so bad he couldnt even hunch over

* a fighter who went down from a punch which didnt land

* a 6'6 uncoordinated freak who is perhaps the most boring fighter of all time

* a canadian human punching bag

* a european fighter who is perhaps the worst challenger to ever get a title shot

* a british champion who cuts more easily than scissors


- he created the worst linear heavyweight champion of all time in leon spinx

very mature suzieq. :rolleyes: anyway, i would say that some people overrate ali, and some people underrate ali, so ali is rated just about where he should be. :p

RockyMarcianofan00
04-15-2006, 01:11 AM
Ali is very overrated
not to say he was an unskilled boxer but his legacy is blown out of proportion more then any other boxer i've seen beside MAYBE Jack Johnson

Dempsey 1919
04-15-2006, 01:15 AM
Ali is very overrated
not to say he was an unskilled boxer but his legacy is blown out of proportion more then any other boxer i've seen beside MAYBE Jack Johnson

if you want to see overrated just look at your avatar. :D

RockyMarcianofan00
04-15-2006, 01:28 AM
if you want to see overrated just look at your avatar. :D
you really are a retart

the only reason people say Marciano fought bums is because you have nothing else to rag on him 4, i mean you can't rag on him losing because he's 49-0, you can't say he was weak so you go right to the he fought bums ploy, get over it Marciano's opponents were better then Jack Johnsons and many other fighters so get off it

Verstyle
04-15-2006, 01:30 AM
very mature suzieq. :rolleyes: anyway, i would say that some people overrate ali, and some people underrate ali, so ali is rated just about where he should be. :p


as a loser :D

RockyMarcianofan00
04-15-2006, 01:33 AM
honestly i'll say Ali was a good fighter with many accomplishments but who here besides you sucks his nuts like you very few. You have him on this invincible pedistal. I mean you say that we all don't put fighters in persepective when we say stuff like Marciano could beat Joe Frazier but then you say stuff like Ali dancing around could beat prime foreman and it just shows how you can't put fighters in perspective

Dempsey 1919
04-15-2006, 01:36 AM
you really are a retart

the only reason people say Marciano fought bums is because you have nothing else to rag on him 4, i mean you can't rag on him losing because he's 49-0, you can't say he was weak so you go right to the he fought bums ploy, get over it Marciano's opponents were better then Jack Johnsons and many other fighters so get off it

well, maybe they were better than johnson's, but marciano did struggle with alot of his opponents and barely beat some of them. and if you don't think rocky competition was to say the least "questionable", then you are blinded by love.

Dempsey 1919
04-15-2006, 01:38 AM
honestly i'll say Ali was a good fighter with many accomplishments but who here besides you sucks his nuts like you very few. You have him on this invincible pedistal. I mean you say that we all don't put fighters in persepective when we say stuff like Marciano could beat Joe Frazier but then you say stuff like Ali dancing around could beat prime foreman and it just shows how you can't put fighters in perspective

i don't overrate ali at all. i never said he was unbeatable. no one is unbeatable.

Brassangel
04-15-2006, 02:46 PM
Originally posted by butterfly1964
i don't overrate ali at all. i never said he was unbeatable. no one is unbeatable.

While you may not come out and say he's invincible, you do overrate him while incinuating his invincibility. Without having to list so many examples, as many of us could do, you often claim that his competition was the greatest of any fighter's in history. In actuality, his competition is, at the very least, just as questionable as any champion's.

On the issue of invincibility, you have repeatedly thwarted anyone's attempt to prove that Ali suffered legitimate losses by stating that Ali was beyond his prime. You have then claimed that had Frazier, Norton, Holmes, Berbick, etc. faced Ali during his prime, he would have beaten them easily and without much trouble. From 1966-1967 you have said, he would have beaten anybody, regardless of style. This seems to be the only time in which Ali was experiencing his prime. Any time before, when someone has pointed out Ali's trouble, you claim that Ali was "green". Any time after, when Ali suffered a difficult battle, you claim that he was no longer in his prime. This shows us, the BoxingScene community, that you basically ignore Ali's flaws and only focus on the short period of time that you have decided was his prime. There are even occassions where someone will post a very convincing argument, based on real research, to show how Ali could have lost during that short time frame where he was in his prime. He did lose rounds and show weaknesses during that time, weaknesses that great fighters would have exploited. A great example of this is against Folley, where he was losing on the cards until he tapped Folley's glass jaw and put him away. When this example comes up, you generally fly in to defend Ali by saying things like, "Ali didn't prepare for that fight!" or, "Folley was a top 40 all-time heavyweight!" and other comments that show no signs of research, or are just plain rediculous. For being the guy who always shows up when the word Ali is mentioned, you present an incredible lack of knowledge (or realistic opinions) on the subject of said champion.

I normally try to avoid offending anyone on this site in any way, so I apologize to butterfly1964 and those who found these remarks offensive. I'm afraid it just had to be said. Let's face it: by dumping excuse after excuse in Ali's defense in sight of his flaws, as well as claiming an invincibility during the shortest prime in championship history (which questions his greatness, all together), you overrate Muhammad Ali, butterfly.

hemichromis
04-15-2006, 02:54 PM
While you may not come out and say he's invincible, you do overrate him while incinuating his invincibility. Without having to list so many examples, as many of us could do, you often claim that his competition was the greatest of any fighter's in history. In actuality, his competition is, at the very least, just as questionable as any champion's.

On the issue of invincibility, you have repeatedly thwarted anyone's attempt to prove that Ali suffered legitimate losses by stating that Ali was beyond his prime. You have then claimed that had Frazier, Norton, Holmes, Berbick, etc. faced Ali during his prime, he would have beaten them easily and without much trouble. From 1966-1967 you have said, he would have beaten anybody, regardless of style. This seems to be the only time in which Ali was experiencing his prime. Any time before, when someone has pointed out Ali's trouble, you claim that Ali was "green". Any time after, when Ali suffered a difficult battle, you claim that he was no longer in his prime. This shows us, the BoxingScene community, that you basically ignore Ali's flaws and only focus on the short period of time that you have decided was his prime. There are even occassions where someone will post a very convincing argument, based on real research, to show how Ali could have lost during that short time frame where he was in his prime. He did lose rounds and show weaknesses during that time, weaknesses that great fighters would have exploited. A great example of this is against Folley, where he was losing on the cards until he tapped Folley's glass jaw and put him away. When this example comes up, you generally fly in to defend Ali by saying things like, "Ali didn't prepare for that fight!" or, "Folley was a top 40 all-time heavyweight!" and other comments that show no signs of research, or are just plain rediculous. For being the guy who always shows up when the word Ali is mentioned, you present an incredible lack of knowledge (or realistic opinions) on the subject of said champion.

I normally try to avoid offending anyone on this site in any way, so I apologize to butterfly1964 and those who found these remarks offensive. I'm afraid it just had to be said. Let's face it: by dumping excuse after excuse in Ali's defense in sight of his flaws, as well as claiming an invincibility during the shortest prime in championship history (which questions his greatness, all together), you overrate Muhammad Ali, butterfly.


if ali i his prime had the wil power heart and chin of the 'past his prime' ali and faster reactions and much better speed he would have to be one of the toughest fighters


although you could say something similar about foreman if foreman had the power and speed of the 20yearold and the heart and will of the 45 yearold you would also have an extremely tough fighter


ahh hell we are never gonna settle the who is greatest thread but that wont stop me arguing!!!! :D

Brockton Lip
04-15-2006, 04:46 PM
1. Muhammad Ali
2. Joe Louis
3. Rocky Marciano
^---(Not in order, but top 3 in my opinion)

Dempsey 1919
04-15-2006, 07:30 PM
While you may not come out and say he's invincible, you do overrate him while incinuating his invincibility. Without having to list so many examples, as many of us could do, you often claim that his competition was the greatest of any fighter's in history. In actuality, his competition is, at the very least, just as questionable as any champion's.

On the issue of invincibility, you have repeatedly thwarted anyone's attempt to prove that Ali suffered legitimate losses by stating that Ali was beyond his prime. You have then claimed that had Frazier, Norton, Holmes, Berbick, etc. faced Ali during his prime, he would have beaten them easily and without much trouble. From 1966-1967 you have said, he would have beaten anybody, regardless of style. This seems to be the only time in which Ali was experiencing his prime. Any time before, when someone has pointed out Ali's trouble, you claim that Ali was "green". Any time after, when Ali suffered a difficult battle, you claim that he was no longer in his prime. This shows us, the BoxingScene community, that you basically ignore Ali's flaws and only focus on the short period of time that you have decided was his prime. There are even occassions where someone will post a very convincing argument, based on real research, to show how Ali could have lost during that short time frame where he was in his prime. He did lose rounds and show weaknesses during that time, weaknesses that great fighters would have exploited. A great example of this is against Folley, where he was losing on the cards until he tapped Folley's glass jaw and put him away. When this example comes up, you generally fly in to defend Ali by saying things like, "Ali didn't prepare for that fight!" or, "Folley was a top 40 all-time heavyweight!" and other comments that show no signs of research, or are just plain rediculous. For being the guy who always shows up when the word Ali is mentioned, you present an incredible lack of knowledge (or realistic opinions) on the subject of said champion.

I normally try to avoid offending anyone on this site in any way, so I apologize to butterfly1964 and those who found these remarks offensive. I'm afraid it just had to be said. Let's face it: by dumping excuse after excuse in Ali's defense in sight of his flaws, as well as claiming an invincibility during the shortest prime in championship history (which questions his greatness, all together), you overrate Muhammad Ali, butterfly.

the reson why ali had a short prime was because he was stripped of his title. if he was allowed to box, then his prime would have been alot longer. it's not ali's fault if the WBA didn't want him to box anymore. so him prime started in '66, and ended in '67 because of ther layoff.

and i have stated in the past that some fighters would give prime ali trouble(frazier, holmes, tyson, norton, liston, etc.) but i still think that more than likely he would still get the W in the end, that's all. they have a chance to beat him, but IMO the probablility is less likely than an ali win.

and ali was not loosing on points in the folley fight, why do i keep hearing that? folley won the first two rounds cause ali did nothing cause he was scared of folley's power, but once ali felt him out he swept the remaining rounds. i had it 4-2 for ali going into the seventh round.

Frazier's 15th round
04-15-2006, 07:46 PM
Suzie, you should do one on Larry Holmes.

Heckler
04-15-2006, 07:59 PM
if ali i his prime had the wil power heart and chin of the 'past his prime' ali and faster reactions and much better speed he would have to be one of the toughest fighters


although you could say something similar about foreman if foreman had the power and speed of the 20yearold and the heart and will of the 45 yearold you would also have an extremely tough fighter


ahh hell we are never gonna settle the who is greatest thread but that wont stop me arguing!!!! :D

On what basis did a prime Ali not have the will power, heart, and chin of a past his prime Ali? Because he got dropped in the early sixties as a young physically immature man? He was Physically mature in his 'prime' and thus his jaw would of been as good as it was after his layoff, your jaw doesn't become better for no apparent reason it was because his body changed. When Ali came back he tried to fight as he had done before, in vain. What you will notice is that as soon as he was tested against (probably against Bonavena)he showed heart. To say he never had heart in the late sixties is a comment without base, his heart was never TESTED.