View Full Version : Most complete fighter ever lived.


Yaman
04-11-2006, 06:35 PM
Old school, right now..Wich fighter has the most complete package? Speed, power, skill, chin, heart etc etc etc.

I'd pick Sugar Ray Robinson.

6OVER6LORD6
04-11-2006, 06:47 PM
prime ruiz

TheHoff'sGhost
04-11-2006, 06:48 PM
Old school, right now..Wich fighter has the most complete package? Speed, power, skill, chin, heart etc etc etc.

I'd pick Sugar Ray Robinson.

i agree completely

K-DOGG
04-11-2006, 07:36 PM
yup....definetly Robinson. He was THE Best.

mokele
04-11-2006, 09:54 PM
Sugar Ray Robinson was of course 1 of the most complete fighters, but many would say Joe Louis. I would also mention Alexis Arguello. Marvin Hagler deserves consideration.

6OVER6LORD6
04-11-2006, 10:10 PM
Sugar Ray Robinson was of course 1 of the most complete fighters, but many would say Joe Louis. I would also mention Alexis Arguello. Marvin Hagler deserves consideration.

still gonna have to go with ruiz on this one

mokele
04-12-2006, 01:25 AM
still gonna have to go with ruiz on this one

Ruiz deserves mention as the most complete and versatile clincher of all time. Actually though, after watching Stribling-Schmeling in July 1931 I got a funny deja vu feeling. Maybe Young Stribling didn't look so good in that fight, but he clinched worse than Ruiz ever did. It's a good thing that Schmeling knocked him out or else we might have had an awful clincher as world champion. :(

Yep, it wasn't a 1-time thing with Stribling:

http://boxrec.com/show_display.php?show_id=43560

I never heard him called "Willie the clutch" before. I'll have to remember that. ;)

Southpaw Stinger
04-12-2006, 07:18 AM
Hagler was a very complete fighter. He both fought and trained 100% for every fight.

jabsRstiff
04-12-2006, 08:35 AM
Eder Jofre....

Fearless
04-12-2006, 09:02 AM
Robinson indeed, I just watched a highlight, never seen anyone with such speed...

THE REAL NINJA
04-12-2006, 10:32 AM
it's not even a contest, RAY ROBINSON ...2nd i'll go with Aaron "HAWK" Pryor ..don't know after Robinson it's hard to pick he set the bar so high i cant see any one taking the title of P4P or over all best any time soon

juan esparza
04-13-2006, 04:45 AM
probebly the best mexican fighter all tim salvador sanchez just ask the professer azuma nelson to bad he passed at a very young age

Azteca
04-14-2006, 01:22 AM
arguello was perhaps one of the most complete fighter to have ever lived. great punch, great boxing ability, great chin. perhaps one of the greatest inside tall fighters of all time. pure class all the way through.

props to whoever mentioned eder jofre. jofre just doesn't get his due. he had essentially 2 careers, brilliant in both.

Islandboy3
04-14-2006, 01:33 AM
In there youth i would pick young Tyson, Chavez Sr and Jones Jr. All there were unbeatable in there prime and the all had the skill and heart that was unmatchable in there respectable weight class.

Islandboy3
04-14-2006, 01:35 AM
I agree Sanchez was a great fighter at 23 and i dont think he even peaked yet when he passed.

Da Iceman
04-14-2006, 01:41 AM
ray robinson or joe louis both had power, louis had some speed, very very good boxers.

osamabinwayne
04-14-2006, 01:52 AM
Joe Louis was the most compplate HW fighter. At the lower weights definitly SSR and SSR.

mokele
04-14-2006, 03:32 AM
arguello was perhaps one of the most complete fighter to have ever lived. great punch, great boxing ability, great punch. perhaps one of the greatest inside tall fighters of all time. pure class all the way through.

props to whoever mentioned eder jofre. jofre just doesn't get his due. he had essentially 2 careers, brilliant in both.

There haven't been that many tall, slender guys that could fight on the inside really well, but Arguello was maybe the best I've ever seen. (Recently, Diego Corrales has shown comparable skill) His technique on both offence and defence was nearly flawless. I saw his fight with Ray Mancini and later his fights with Pryor, and his quick stoppage of Kevin Rooney. I also saw his loss to Vilomar Fernandez in a non-title fight in which his only limitation was exposed: he was slow on his feet. Arguello was also 1 of the most gracious fighters ever, showing great respect to a fallen opponent. He went into the locker room of Ruben Olivares after he defeated him for the WBA Featherweight Title and promised Olivares that he would defend the title with honor. How many fighters today show so much dignity?

King Koyle
04-14-2006, 10:55 AM
No arguments here.Sugar Ray Robinson it is.

Azteca
04-14-2006, 06:44 PM
There haven't been that many tall, slender guys that could fight on the inside really well, but Arguello was maybe the best I've ever seen. (Recently, Diego Corrales has shown comparable skill) His technique on both offence and defence was nearly flawless. I saw his fight with Ray Mancini and later his fights with Pryor, and his quick stoppage of Kevin Rooney. I also saw his loss to Vilomar Fernandez in a non-title fight in which his only limitation was exposed: he was slow on his feet. Arguello was also 1 of the most gracious fighters ever, showing great respect to a fallen opponent. He went into the locker room of Ruben Olivares after he defeated him for the WBA Featherweight Title and promised Olivares that he would defend the title with honor. How many fighters today show so much dignity?

corrales in the same breath as arguello? i dont think so! i know what you're getting at however, corrales ability to mix it up on both the outside/inside at high levels is what makes him the fighter he is today.

in reply to arguello's 'slow footspeed', i'm in agreement. pryor took the piss out of him mainly because alexis was a stationary target for 14 rounds.

you are also spot on when you call arguello a gracious champ! arguello never *****footed around the top competition. he was also a very honest individual. i read an interview where he said he would never fight duran, even though at the time the fight was in high demand. he knew he wouldn't be able to win, and he didn't want to upset his fans and the public. he would be cheating the public if he accepted such a mismatch.

great ambassador of the sport, and one of my all time favs.

sleazyfellow
04-14-2006, 08:23 PM
1. sugar ray robinson
2. "hurricane hank" henry armstrong im surprised no 1 mentioned him.

those r my first two, u gotta take alot into consideration to rate pound for pound the best, but those two jump into my mind when thinking pound for pound immediatly

SABBATH
04-14-2006, 09:37 PM
you are also spot on when you call arguello a gracious champ! arguello never *****footed around the top competition.

Arguello could have easily been a 4 weight champion if he fought the WBC junior welter belt holder Leroy Haley instead of facing the great Aaron Pryor not once but twice. Pryor's respect for Arguello is unquestionable...

Dempsey 1919
04-15-2006, 01:48 AM
Old school, right now..Wich fighter has the most complete package? Speed, power, skill, chin, heart etc etc etc.

I'd pick Sugar Ray Robinson.

well, it depends on what you mean by complete. if you mean complete in physical gifts, then it's sugar ray robinson, roy jones, jr., or mike tyson. if it's complete in a combination of the physical and mental aspect, then it's sugar ray robinson, or muhammad ali. :boxing:

Yaman
04-15-2006, 02:13 PM
well, it depends on what you mean by complete. if you mean complete in physical gifts, then it's sugar ray robinson, roy jones, jr., or mike tyson. if it's complete in a combination of the physical and mental aspect, then it's sugar ray robinson, or muhammad ali. :boxing:


Complete in physical gifts it is :)

hemichromis
04-15-2006, 04:02 PM
from what i've heard joe louis was very good at everything but i have never seen him fight

i hate to say it but tyson had speed and power and some good skills

Dempsey 1919
04-15-2006, 08:35 PM
from what i've heard joe louis was very good at everything but i have never seen him fight

i hate to say it but tyson had speed and power and some good skills

i would have said louis, but he was slow on his feet. but a guy like tyson had very good footspeed.

Azteca
04-15-2006, 09:47 PM
louis wasn't slow on his feet per say, because it was all in his style. blackburn (louis' trainer) knew that at the time a black champion wouldn't be accepted. in order to become a champion, louis had to produce knockouts.

Dempsey 1919
04-15-2006, 10:03 PM
louis wasn't slow on his feet per say, because it was all in his style. blackburn (louis' trainer) knew that at the time a black champion wouldn't be accepted. in order to become a champion, louis had to produce knockouts.

sure he was. if he wasn't, then people like conn and nova wouldn't give him hell.

dansweeney
04-15-2006, 10:12 PM
if only he had a world class chin, id say Thomas "The HitMan" Hearns. he could knock you out with one punch, or box your ears off. just ask SRL. even when he was well beyond his prime he was still able to outbox a prime undefeated Virgil Hill. he is underestimated. on his best night I think he could have beaten anybody p4p. if he only had the chin....

Dempsey 1919
04-15-2006, 10:16 PM
if only he had a world class chin, id say Thomas "The HitMan" Hearns. he could knock you out with one punch, or box your ears off. just ask SRL. even when he was well beyond his prime he was still able to outbox a prime undefeated Virgil Hill. he is underestimated. on his best night I think he could have beaten anybody p4p. if he only had the chin....

yeah, hearns was pretty good.

XionComrade
04-15-2006, 11:41 PM
Ummm...

Roy Jones
George Foreman
Mike Tyson
Robinson and Leonard and a million others...lol

Those guys are the first to come in mind, and the greatest athletes to ever step into...anything.

tommyhearns804
04-19-2006, 03:16 AM
I know alot of people here said or will say Sugar Ray Robinson or Ali.But let me show you how wrong you are.First of all Robinson had a glass chin.He was knocked down tons of times.He just got back up.But going down in to begin with means he couldnt really take a punch.Robinson also ducked any black fighter he thought would beat him (Robinson ducked guys like Burley completely like a *****)Robinson padded his record probably more than any other known fighter besides maybe Marciano and Joe Louis.If Robinson had to fight the middleweights from the 80's he would of been ripped apart.
Ali was hurt countless amounts of times.He only went down 4 or so times but he was still rocked by 1 punch a bunch of other times.Ali wasn't much of a puncher.His d-fense was pretty lousy which is the reason he suffered the damage that haunts him today.
Ali never worked the body.He got tired alot and for a fighter who didnt have much pop on his punches meant he had to go the distance to often.
The most complete fighters that i have seen would be these fighters.Lennox Lewis (Lewis had a pretty good chin.Sure he got knocked out by one punch 2 times but Ali was almost knocked out by Cooper a man much smaller than he was.At least the guys who knocked Lewis out were 230 pounds or more.Not to mention Lewis fought Bruno,Morrison, and Tyson and never was bothered by their punches)
Foreman(The whole bullcrap about Foreman being slow and wild is just that bull Ali used to get in Foremans head and now it has stucked)If Foreman was so slow then more fighters would of avoided being knocked out by him including fighters like Norton who was a pretty damn good boxer.
Hagler i dont really have to say anything about him you know he was complete.Spinks as a light heavyweight was pretty complete.
If i had to name a person now i would say Joe Calzaghe i think you spell it that way.He showed he could outbox a slugger like Lacy which showed me a little something about how good he is.None of you people thought he would avoid being knocked out never less win.
Well those are some of the most complete fighters if i think of more i will post them

LondonRingRules
04-19-2006, 02:44 PM
Robinson, Tunney, Charles, Jofre, Jimmy Barry...

Robinson was not always well trained, so discipline was his biggest weakness, not that he was ever really poorly trained.

Tunney and Charles could do it all and Jofre was as close to a perfect fighter as there has ever been. Jimmy Barry was a powerhouse with no known weakness. Both Barry and Charles sort of declined a bit after killing men in the ring.

Charles and Robinson also hung on too long because of finances, so maybe that could downgrade them, not being able to retire close to the top.

LondonRingRules
04-19-2006, 02:47 PM
======First of all Robinson had a glass chin.========

** 2nd all, you ain't nutin' but a big ol' glob of stink that needs a good flushin'. Why don't you try to see if you can pass the 8th grade this year.

chris_cov
04-19-2006, 04:16 PM
from what iv seen sugar ray robinson.

Kid Achilles
04-19-2006, 07:43 PM
You'd have to be a completely worthless piece of **** moron to think Ray Robinson had a glass chin. The kind of guy who would, oh I don't know, rank George Foreman over Muhammad Ali?

fitz1888
04-19-2006, 08:05 PM
The kind of guy who would, oh I don't know, rank George Foreman over Muhammad Ali?

Classic, could agree more.

Azteca
04-20-2006, 11:56 AM
Robinson, Tunney, Charles, Jofre, Jimmy Barry...

Robinson was not always well trained, so discipline was his biggest weakness, not that he was ever really poorly trained.

Tunney and Charles could do it all and Jofre was as close to a perfect fighter as there has ever been. Jimmy Barry was a powerhouse with no known weakness. Both Barry and Charles sort of declined a bit after killing men in the ring.

Charles and Robinson also hung on too long because of finances, so maybe that could downgrade them, not being able to retire close to the top.

that's a good point on jofre, mate. it's something i have definetly thought about. he was like the tyson of the lower weights. very class fighter, he could do it all.

oldgringo
04-20-2006, 12:38 PM
Mike McCallum became pretty close to a complete fighter during his prime. He didn't have the most talent out there, but he perfected his particular style and became a force. Great chin, good power in both hands, legendary body attack, could counter or lead, threw punches at all angles, knew the ins and outs of the ring, etc...

Good combination puncher too when he'd work from the body to the head.

hemichromis
04-21-2006, 04:10 PM
You'd have to be a completely worthless piece of **** moron to think Ray Robinson had a glass chin. The kind of guy who would, oh I don't know, rank George Foreman over Muhammad Ali?

if foreman only had heart in his first career he could have beaten ali

Southpaw Stinger
04-21-2006, 04:27 PM
if foreman only had heart in his first career he could have beaten ali

He had heart and courage but just little stamina and brains.

LondonRingRules
04-22-2006, 04:32 PM
if foreman only had heart in his first career he could have beaten ali
** If only you had some brains to spark a match. Someone done filled your noggin with cotton candy.

ricecrispi
04-22-2006, 05:56 PM
Hagler, SRR, Joe Lious, Archie Moore, SRL, Arguello, Ricardo Lopez, Eric Morales, and Holyfield are my choices.

I would also put Leonard up there. Doesn't have any obvious big flaws.

Arguello is a great choice for reasons people already listed. A complete boxer.

The "HawK" Aaron Pyror was NOT a complete fighter. Threw punches from his waist, kept his hands down during flurries, and ate a lot of punches. Still one of my top ten favs fighters but not a complete package. He was the "Human windmill of punches."

Ricardo Lopez. That guy had single KO power, a good chin, a good defense and always had a good game plan. Very dominant fighter in all his matches.

Holyfield isn't too shabby as a Cruiserweight or even as Heavyweight. Holyfield will always offer a competitive fight to any fighter in his prime. Lottve people think I'm crazy but I think Holyfield in his best fight could beat any top10 heavyweight at their best except Foreman.

Thoth
04-22-2006, 06:06 PM
43 replies and not one mention of Roberto Duran. Bah!

SABBATH
04-22-2006, 07:14 PM
The "HawK" Aaron Pyror was NOT a complete fighter. Threw punches from his waist, kept his hands down during flurries, and ate a lot of punches. Still one of my top ten favs fighters but not a complete package. He was the "Human windmill of punches."

Holyfield isn't too shabby as a Cruiserweight or even as Heavyweight. Holyfield will always offer a competitive fight to any fighter in his prime. Lottve people think I'm crazy but I think Holyfield in his best fight could beat any top10 heavyweight at their best except Foreman.

Pryor dominating Arguello is an example of a great technically complete fighter being no match for a great but technically flawed and unpredictable one. Manny Pacman beating Berrera and Morales are other recent examples.

Holyfield is under-rated. He was able to beat top level competition by deploying different styles. I can't think of another heavyweight champion more adaptable style wise than Evander Holyfield.

Azteca
04-26-2006, 11:32 PM
ray robinson. he could fight inside or outside. he could in the trenches and fight the tough guys or he can get center ring and play with the fast technicians. he had 2 things: he hit hard and he had a hard chin. he had an incorrigible will to continue. he never yield/he never quit. he had incredible basics and his decision making skills were extremely quick. these are the traits of great fighters, IMO.

Panamaniac
11-06-2007, 01:48 PM
43 replies and not one mention of Roberto Duran. Bah!He's the 800-lb. gorrilla in the corner of the room that no one notices...

Panamaniac
11-06-2007, 01:54 PM
These are 10 fighters who had all the tools and were not shy about using them:

Sugar Ray Robinson
Henry Armstrong
Joe Louis
Muhammad Ali
Roberto Duran*
Marvin Hagler
Sugar Ray Leonard
Thomas Hearns
Julio Cesar Chavez
Alexis Arguello*To see the quintessence of a complete fighter in action, click on the blue text in my signature below.

-CANE-
11-06-2007, 02:33 PM
Recent fighters as all the obvious old timers have been mentioned and rightly so. Evander Holyfield,Lennox Lewis,Roy Jones Jnr,Joe Calzaghe,Meldrick Taylor,Thomas Hearns,Sugar Ray Leonard,Marvelous Marvin Hagler,Roberto Duran etc etc.

But none of them come close to Sugar Ray Robinson, the greatest fighter ever p4p bar none.

Hawk O'Connor
11-06-2007, 02:36 PM
I think Lennox could have showed alot more of the complete package than he did. I think he was overly cautious alot of times, had he been more outward with his boxing skill and power he would have been more dominant than he was, instead we saw him in the preventive type defensive mode alot.

-CANE-
11-06-2007, 02:47 PM
I think Lennox could have showed alot more of the complete package than he did. I think he was overly cautious alot of times, had he been more outward with his boxing skill and power he would have been more dominant than he was, instead we saw him in the preventive type defensive mode alot.

I do see where your coming from there Hawk. I mean sometimes he was just awesome and destroyed some good fighters early on like Ruddock,Golota,Grant but then sometimes he was really cautious. The Tua fight he could be forgiven as he hit extremely hard and had a granite jaw, but so did Ray Mercer who Lewis had a brutal war with and just stood infront of him and traded. But then in his 2 biggest fights he was cautious. With Tyson it's understandable like with Tua but he broke him down and knocked him out it's the Holyfield fights I think that best demonstrate this in that Holyfield was far smaller and I thought had Lewis gone to work on him he could have stopped him both times. I know Evander is dangerous especially when hurt but he was very conservative. Maybe that's what he thought he needed to do to win the fights and not want to make a mistake and walk onto a big punch. However saying this Lennox Lewis was blessed with being able to do everything in the game and adapting his tactics to suit an opponent which is why given what he accomplished and his all round ability and beating everyone he ever faced I rate him as the 3rd greatest heavyweight who ever lived.

Hawk O'Connor
11-06-2007, 02:55 PM
I wasn't dissin' big Len because he was great to watch. But sometimes I think he could have done more. IMO I think he could have put Holyfield away in the first fight if he had used his jab with authority and pressed more. Holy was on the downside and ripe for the picking.

Anyways, I loved the Ruddock fight..Morrison fight too...plus I loved to watch him beat the snot out of Michael Grant. LOL And watching him knock out Rahman always brings a smile to my face.

-CANE-
11-06-2007, 03:02 PM
I wasn't dissin' big Len because he was great to watch. But sometimes I think he could have done more. IMO I think he could have put Holyfield away in the first fight if he had used his jab with authority and pressed more. Holy was on the downside and ripe for the picking.

Anyways, I loved the Ruddock fight..Morrison fight too...plus I loved to watch him beat the snot out of Michael Grant. LOL And watching him knock out Rahman always brings a smile to my face.

I know you weren't dissin him and I agree with you on the Holyfield fights he should have stopped him in both fights and been more aggressive.

Hawk O'Connor
11-06-2007, 03:09 PM
I know you weren't dissin him and I agree with you on the Holyfield fights he should have stopped him in both fights and been more aggressive.

I guess when you truly think about it, you could possibly see his point. Back in those days it could have been a potential disaster to count Holyfield out. People had written him off how many times before?

-CANE-
11-06-2007, 03:42 PM
I guess when you truly think about it, you could possibly see his point. Back in those days it could have been a potential disaster to count Holyfield out. People had written him off how many times before?

I think that's what was going through his mind, why risk losing the fight he had waited all his career for. Plus Lewis was the one in the ring with him and had a better idea of how strong he was and how hard he hit and just didn't think it was worth taking the risk. I suppose at the end of the day he did what he had to do to win, better that than losing everything he had worked so long and hard for.

Hawk O'Connor
11-06-2007, 03:49 PM
I think that's what was going through his mind, why risk losing the fight he had waited all his career for. Plus Lewis was the one in the ring with him and had a better idea of how strong he was and how hard he hit and just didn't think it was worth taking the risk. I suppose at the end of the day he did what he had to do to win, better that than losing everything he had worked so long and hard for.

Yeah, understandable. Holyfield was a true warrior and you never knew what to expect.

Panamaniac
11-06-2007, 03:51 PM
I think Lennox could have showed alot more of the complete package than he did. I think he was overly cautious alot of times, had he been more outward with his boxing skill and power he would have been more dominant than he was, instead we saw him in the preventive type defensive mode alot.I never considered Lennox a complete fighter, simply because he never showed it. If in fact he was as versatile as many claim him to be, he never showed it while I was watching. To this observer, he always seemed fixated on knocking out his opponent with a single right hand. Consequently, all I ever saw him do is set up his rival with probing left jabs in order to unleash his powerful right cross. He rarely deployed a left hook, uppercut (of either hand), or combinations, for that matter...

-CANE-
11-06-2007, 04:04 PM
I never considered Lennox a complete fighter, simply because he never showed it. If in fact he was as versatile as many claim him to be, he never showed it while I was watching. To this observer, he always seemed fixated on knocking out his opponent with a single right hand. Consequently, all I ever saw him do is set up his rival with probing left jabs in order to unleash his powerful right cross. He rarely deployed a left hook, uppercut (of either hand), or combinations, for that matter...

Hi panamaniac - I'm sorry but gonna have to disagree with you big time on this one. One of the most complete heavyweights in history.

Granted his jab and then the right hand was the coup de grace, but he used combinations in many of his fights and threw them well.

Watch the Ruddock fight for a lethal combination or the Mercer fight he threw plenty in that one also the Mavrovic fight he hit Mavrovic with some beautiful combos.

He had a very underated left hook just watch the Bruno fight and it was the left hook that was the beginning of the end for Bruno.

And uppercuts I think he had the best uppercuts of all the heavyweights in history even better then Tyson's and used them so often and effectively.

His knockout of Justin Fortune not a big namr I know but 3 right uppercuts on the trot that almost took his head off. Bruno laying on the ropes another awesome right uppercut, Mercer fight many combos and great right uppercuts, Tyson fight great finishing combos with brilliant left and right uppercuts that almost dropped Tyson as his legs buckled. Michael Grant brutalized and dropped with a tremendous right uppercut and in his final fight against Klitchko watch some of the uppercuts he unloads on his chin. I could go on if I thought about it but these are the ones that stick in my mind. If your still not convinced fair enough but I can put up some clips for you and maybe change your mind.

Hawk O'Connor
11-06-2007, 04:07 PM
I never considered Lennox a complete fighter, simply because he never showed it. If in fact he was as versatile as many claim him to be, he never showed it while I was watching. To this observer, he always seemed fixated on knocking out his opponent with a single right hand. Consequently, all I ever saw him do is set up his rival with probing left jabs in order to unleash his powerful right cross. He rarely deployed a left hook, uppercut (of either hand), or combinations, for that matter...


I think he was..he showed flashes of it in different fights....never all at once.

them_apples
11-06-2007, 04:20 PM
Robinson, Holmes and young Tyson

Hawk O'Connor
11-06-2007, 04:22 PM
Hi panamaniac - I'm sorry but gonna have to disagree with you big time on this one. One of the most complete heavyweights in history.

Granted his jab and then the right hand was the coup de grace, but he used combinations in many of his fights and threw them well.

Watch the Ruddock fight for a lethal combination or the Mercer fight he threw plenty in that one also the Mavrovic fight he hit Mavrovic with some beautiful combos.

He had a very underated left hook just watch the Bruno fight and it was the left hook that was the beginning of the end for Bruno.

And uppercuts I think he had the best uppercuts of all the heavyweights in history even better then Tyson's and used them so often and effectively.

His knockout of Justin Fortune not a big namr I know but 3 right uppercuts on the trot that almost took his head off. Bruno laying on the ropes another awesome right uppercut, Mercer fight many combos and great right uppercuts, Tyson fight great finishing combos with brilliant left and right uppercuts that almost dropped Tyson as his legs buckled. Michael Grant brutalized and dropped with a tremendous right uppercut and in his final fight against Klitchko watch some of the uppercuts he unloads on his chin. I could go on if I thought about it but these are the ones that stick in my mind. If your still not convinced fair enough but I can put up some clips for you and maybe change your mind.

Well Lennox never had the career defining fight that put all of his tools on display for the world. He never had a fight like Ali/Cleveland Williams where you could point and say look...thats the best you'll ever see of him with every facet of his game on display.

The only real criticism I ever had with Lennox was the fact that he didn't use his jab as effectively as he should have alot. I can understand being overly defensive against certain guys, and I can understand being cautious. I just never understand the fact that in some fights he just pawed with his jab instead of using it with authority like he was capable of.

-CANE-
11-06-2007, 04:40 PM
Well Lennox never had the career defining fight that put all of his tools on display for the world. He never had a fight like Ali/Cleveland Williams where you could point and say look...thats the best you'll ever see of him with every facet of his game on display.

The only real criticism I ever had with Lennox was the fact that he didn't use his jab as effectively as he should have alot. I can understand being overly defensive against certain guys, and I can understand being cautious. I just never understand the fact that in some fights he just pawed with his jab instead of using it with authority like he was capable of.

I think he did have 2 fights that stick in my mind where you saw everything Lewis was capable of great boxing skills, good defense, good chin, fast hands, fast powerful combinations, great offense, high work rate and every punch in the book. But I think these 2 particular fights get forgotten partly because they weren't against Tyson or Holyfield and partly because they both went the distance, but the 2 fighters he fought in these fights both had granite jaws and maybe because he didn't stop them or they weren't the biggest of names these fights get overlooked. The 2 fights are Ray Mercer and Zelkjo Mavrovic. They were 2 great all round performances by Lennox Lewis.

Hawk O'Connor
11-06-2007, 04:42 PM
I think he did have 2 fights that stick in my mind where you saw everything Lewis was capable of great boxing skills, good defense, good chin, fast hands, fast powerful combinations, great offense, high work rate and every punch in the book. But I think these 2 particular fights get forgotten partly because they weren't against Tyson or Holyfield and partly because they both went the distance, but the 2 fighters he fought in these fights both had granite jaws and maybe because he didn't stop them or they weren't the biggest of names these fights get overlooked. The 2 fights are Ray Mercer and Zelkjo Mavrovic. They were 2 great all round performances by Lennox Lewis.

You may be right. I haven't seen those fights since they happened even though I have both. I'll have to rewatch both. From all that I remembered none of his fights stood out in that aspect. But I could very well be mistaken.

I do think he gets alot of undeserved flak tho'. His chin is alot more durable than given credit for. Look at the Tua fight, Tua caught him with a couple of monster hooks to the head. He was hurt but he didn't go down.

Furthermore, I think what made him so much better than most was because he had something most of the great ones do - an extensive amateur background. Thats one thing thats mos def lacking now.

Panamaniac
11-06-2007, 07:14 PM
I never considered Lennox a complete fighter, simply because he never showed it. If in fact he was as versatile as many claim him to be, he never showed it while I was watching. To this observer, he always seemed fixated on knocking out his opponent with a single right hand. Consequently, all I ever saw him do is set up his rival with probing left jabs in order to unleash his powerful right cross. He rarely deployed a left hook, uppercut (of either hand), or combinations, for that matter...

Hi panamaniac - I'm sorry but gonna have to disagree with you big time on this one. One of the most complete heavyweights in history.You can't disagree with my perception of Lennox, as highlighted in red above, based on the fights I saw. I clearly qualified my statement and never claimed my perception was fact. Had I seen more or other Lennox fights, I might have had a more balanced perception of his talent, but given the limited quantity I saw, he didn't amount to much.

I will do further research and see the fights you suggested and see if my opinion changes.

AntonTheMeh
11-06-2007, 07:52 PM
i think had duran been lousy in some facet of his game he'd still be a hall of famer,inch for inch he's the greatest,p4p its ray robinson

Terry A
11-06-2007, 11:04 PM
Ray Robinson is my first pick, followed by Henry Armstrong and Duran.

Julio C. Chavez had a heck of a run also.

bigsmoothh
11-06-2007, 11:18 PM
jc chavez, or aaron pryor also.

MoneyINC
11-07-2007, 12:45 AM
Tyson had he never went to jail woud have Koed Buster in 2 and reclaimed what so galantly Robin took and thats his man-hood

Hawk O'Connor
11-07-2007, 12:54 AM
Tyson had he never went to jail woud have Koed Buster in 2 and reclaimed what so galantly Robin took and thats his man-hood

Wasn't jail that screwed up the Doulgas rematch man. It was Don King's lowball offer on the purse split that caused Douglas to say no thanks.

Nostromo
11-07-2007, 01:57 AM
i think had duran been lousy in some facet of his game he'd still be a hall of famer,inch for inch he's the greatest,p4p its ray robinsonAm I the only one this doesn't make any sense to?

Jim Jeffries
11-07-2007, 02:36 AM
Am I the only one this doesn't make any sense to?

Duran was a lot shorter than Robinson.

newforce
11-07-2007, 03:50 AM
sugar shane mosley

-CANE-
11-07-2007, 04:39 AM
You can't disagree with my perception of Lennox, as highlighted in red above, based on the fights I saw. I clearly qualified my statement and never claimed my perception was fact. Had I seen more or other Lennox fights, I might have had a more balanced perception of his talent, but given the limited quantity I saw, he didn't amount to much.

I will do further research and see the fights you suggested and see if my opinion changes.

No you never claimed it was fact, I wasn't sure what fights you had seen as you never stated which ones you saw. Out of curiousity which fights of his had you seen. I was just stating my opinion and disagreed with your assesment of him, not knowing how much you had seen of him. Not having a go just defending a fighter I rate highly and IMO is underated by many americans who haven't maybe seen all his fights.

I'm sure if I was to say I don't think Duran was a complete fighter from what I've seen of him (which I don't think that) you would give me many reasons as to why he was. Didn't mean to sound like i'm slagging you off just trying to get my point of view accross.

Anyway hope you enjoy watching more of his fights and think a lot more of him.

QuCongee
11-07-2007, 07:02 AM
Gotta say Ali

AntonTheMeh
11-07-2007, 09:14 AM
Am I the only one this doesn't make any sense to?
HE WAS A GREAT DEFENSIVE FIGHTER AS WELL AS A GREAT OFFENSIVE FIGHTER,HAD HE NOT BEEN AS GOOD WITH ONE I THINK HE STILL WOULD BE GREAT.CLEAR ENOUGH FOR YA SWEETHEART?
AS FAR AS THE INCH FOR INCH THING I MEANT HAD HE BEEN RAY RONBINSON'S HEIGHT 5'11[DURAN 5'8] WE WOULD BE ARGUING WHO'S GREATER RAY ROBINSON OR DURAN

Panamaniac
11-07-2007, 11:47 AM
No you never claimed it was fact, I wasn't sure what fights you had seen as you never stated which ones you saw. Out of curiousity which fights of his had you seen. I was just stating my opinion and disagreed with your assesment of him, not knowing how much you had seen of him. Not having a go just defending a fighter I rate highly and IMO is underated by many americans who haven't maybe seen all his fights.

I'm sure if I was to say I don't think Duran was a complete fighter from what I've seen of him (which I don't think that) you would give me many reasons as to why he was. Didn't mean to sound like i'm slagging you off just trying to get my point of view accross.

Anyway hope you enjoy watching more of his fights and think a lot more of him.

I don't recall which fights I saw, although he seemed dominant in most of them. I do maintain, however, that he didn't seem to have much of an arsenal. He seemed to favor the left jab and right cross. I might have recalled those fights had I been more impressed.
Of course I would have "defended" a fighter you slighted, If I thought he was better. That's the purpose of this forum: to talk boxing...
No offense taken... I know where you're coming from.

-CANE-
11-07-2007, 12:09 PM
I don't recall which fights I saw, although he seemed dominant in most of them. I do maintain, however, that he didn't seem to have much of an arsenal. He seemed to favor the left jab and right cross. I might have recalled those fights had I been more impressed.
Of course I would have "defended" a fighter you slighted, If I thought he was better. That's the purpose of this forum: to talk boxing...
No offense taken... I know where you're coming from.

IMO I believe Lennox Lewis to be one of the elite all-time greats only behind Muhammad Ali and the great Joe Louis and just ahead of Larry Holmes.

For me these 4 on accomplishments alone stand out above the rest, as the stats don't lie. Ability wise as well I feel they could all do pretty much everything.

Hawk O'Connor
11-07-2007, 12:17 PM
Well, there are two versions of Lennox, the early version that really didn't box very well..kind of awkward. And the latter version that was a master technician.

Ryn0
11-07-2007, 12:52 PM
Gotta say Ali
i don't think you get the question. I understand where your coming from but because of Ali's style he was never a complete fighter. Robinson, Hagler etc.. they could all punch not just in flurries but had true one punch knockout power, they had stamina, speed, versatility, mental strength and chin amongst other attributes. Ali lacked the one punch knockout power he was very versatile so he could cope with other fighters that did and had the style to stop this advantage and if the one big punch did come through he had the chin take it. understand where i'm coming from? i respect you opinion but i'm trying to point out my views on the question.

AntonTheMeh
11-07-2007, 02:23 PM
i think dempsey was pretty good too,even if tunney made him look like a fool

-CANE-
11-07-2007, 02:24 PM
Well, there are two versions of Lennox, the early version that really didn't box very well..kind of awkward. And the latter version that was a master technician.

Can you imagine how good he would have been if he was the size he was against Ruddock but had been trained by Steward from the start.

He would have been possibly the most complete fighter ever in the division and may have never been beaten.

Hawk O'Connor
11-07-2007, 02:50 PM
Can you imagine how good he would have been if he was the size he was against Ruddock but had been trained by Steward from the start.

He would have been possibly the most complete fighter ever in the division and may have never been beaten.


To be quite honest I never thought that highly of him until later on in his career. Early on, to me at least, he was just another of the big lumbering heavyweights after one of the multitude of belts.

I think he is one guy you can most definetly had a later prime than most.

Jim Jeffries
11-09-2007, 12:53 AM
Can you imagine how good he would have been if he was the size he was against Ruddock but had been trained by Steward from the start.

He would have been possibly the most complete fighter ever in the division and may have never been beaten.

You can definitely tell the difference between a pre-Steward Lewis in McCall/LewisI (Steward helping a club fighter in McCall beat Lewis) and his career with Steward soon after. Except for that slip in Africa, at 5000 feet, against Rahman, he was pretty damn good.

Hawk O'Connor
11-09-2007, 01:13 AM
You can definitely tell the difference between a pre-Steward Lewis in McCall/LewisI (Steward helping a club fighter in McCall beat Lewis) and his career with Steward soon after. Except for that slip in Africa, at 5000 feet, against Rahman, he was pretty damn good.

Agreed. Before Manny came Len was very awkward looking at times. After Manny got ivolved he became a true 'pugilist specialist'.

stefjonno1
11-09-2007, 03:13 AM
Yeah Robinson. He had everything.

The Noose
11-09-2007, 03:33 AM
The question should be 'Not including Robinson'.

I like Ricardo Lopez.

Burning Desire
11-09-2007, 08:23 AM
Prime Mike Tyson
Prime Roy Jones Jr
Sugar Ray Robinson
Prime Meldrick Taylor
Alexis Arguello
Salvador Sanchez
Ricardo Lopez
Charles Burley

Jim Jeffries
11-09-2007, 10:33 AM
Prime Mike Tyson
Prime Roy Jones Jr
Sugar Ray Robinson
Prime Meldrick Taylor
Alexis Arguello
Salvador Sanchez
Ricardo Lopez
Charles Burley

Tyson may have been a lot of things, but most COMPLETE fighter? Take away his power and he would have struggled to have a winning record. He couldn't fight going backwards, granted he never had to. He almost never outboxed anyone from the outside, just waded in and threw bombs, a lot of them from clinch distance. I like the rest of the list though, its worth mentioning that Roy never lost until he was 35, not counting that stupid fight where he hit Montell Griffin when he was on one knee (hell of a way to lose a championship), and his destruction of Griffin in the first round in the next fight made up for that.

wmute
11-09-2007, 02:12 PM
I think Robinson is the best fighter ever,

however he is not the most complete, in that his defense is definitely sub-par when compared to his offensive game.

I would say Ray Leonard is more complete/balanced (obviously I would pick Robinson over Leonard, but I still think Leonard is more complete)