View Full Version : March Madness + Boxing =


Brassangel
04-06-2006, 01:46 AM
I've been absent for some time now; my wife and I just had a beautiful baby girl. Her name is Genesis (Genna for short). I decided to return in lieu of the crazy upset-fest that was the men's division of March Madness. Since this is a boxing forum, however, I will keep my eye on the prize.

The following is a 32-fighter tournament in the heavyweight division. 64 seemed extremely daunting, or else I would have completed this in it's entirety. Feel free to grumble about some of the standings, or just have fun with it! The fighters were chosen based on some personal research, and from that of the other good boxing scholars on this very website and their historical points of view. Keep in mind that the fighters were given their seatings within each bracket, and does not represent my personal opinions of their actual ranking. Fill in the brackets, and post your results if you wish. One may get really ambitious and indicate the round in which the fight ends. Enjoy!

A few things to be aware of: All fighters are allegedly in their "primes" for this tournament. No partying the night before, all of the proper training is there, no layoffs (or excuses); and above all, STYLE COUNTS! Even the magnificent #1 fighters can run into a difficult style matchup, no matter how fast or powerful he may have been. They are all human, so please, do a little research and fill in the blanks accordingly.

On a side note: We are all very aware that butterfly1964 will pick Ali vs. Liston in the final, so it's okay if he doesn't even bother to post.


****EDIT**** I had a nice spreadsheet with all of the brackets lined up, but I just realized that I can't post attachments on here. Yarr... Well, here's the watered down version.

1. Muhammad Ali vs. 8. Archie Moore
4. Jersey Joe Walcott vs. 5. Max Schmeling
3. Jack Johnson vs. 6. Joe Jeanette
2. Jack Dempsey vs. 7. James Corbett

1. Rocky Marciano vs. 8. Cleveland Williams
4. Evander Holyfield vs. 5. Ken Norton
3. Joe Frazier vs. 6. Max Baer
2. Mike Tyson vs. 7. George Godfrey

1. Joe Louis vs. 8. Jimmy Young
4. Floyd Patterson vs. 5. Riddick Bowe
3. Lennox Lewis vs. 6. Jerry Quarry
2. George Foreman vs. 7. Elmer Ray

1. Larry Holmes vs. 8. Harry Wills
4. Ezzard Charles vs. 5. Gene Tunney
3. Jim Jeffries vs. 6. Jack Sharkey
2. Sonny Liston vs. 7. Peter Jackson

Again...yarr.. :boxing:

Yogi
04-06-2006, 02:06 AM
BIG congratulations on the little rug rat, Brassangel, and it's good to see you back again.

Dempsey 1919
04-06-2006, 03:22 PM
1. Muhammad Ali vs. 8. Archie Moore(ali ko2)
4. Jersey Joe Walcott vs. 5. Max Schmeling(watcott ko9)
3. Jack Johnson vs. 6. Joe Jeanette(johnson ud15)
2. Jack Dempsey vs. 7. James Corbett(dempsey ko4)

1. Rocky Marciano vs. 8. Cleveland Williams(marciano ko7)
4. Evander Holyfield vs. 5. Ken Norton(holyfield md15)
3. Joe Frazier vs. 6. Max Baer(frazier tko6)
2. Mike Tyson vs. 7. George Godfrey(tyson tko5)

1. Joe Louis vs. 8. Jimmy Young(louis tko5)
4. Floyd Patterson vs. 5. Riddick Bowe(bowe ko7)
3. Lennox Lewis vs. 6. Jerry Quarry(lewis tko5)
2. George Foreman vs. 7. Elmer Ray(foreman ko2)

1. Larry Holmes vs. 8. Harry Wills(holmes ud15)
4. Ezzard Charles vs. 5. Gene Tunney(charles md15)
3. Jim Jeffries vs. 6. Jack Sharkey(sharkey ud15)
2. Sonny Liston vs. 7. Peter Jackson(liston ko3)

Again...yarr.. :boxing:

this is my secection:

1. Muhammad Ali vs. 4. Jersey Joe Watcott
3. Jack Johnson vs. 2. Jack Dempsey

1. Rocky Marciano vs. 4. Evander Holyfield
3. Joe Frazier vs. 2. Mike Tyson

1. Joe Louis vs. 5. Riddick Bowe
3. Lennox Lewis vs. 2. George Foreman

1. Larry Holmes vs. 4. Ezzard Charles
6. Jack Sharkey vs. 2. Sonny Liston

:D

Yogi
04-06-2006, 03:35 PM
Tyson TKO-2 Godfrey?

Get the **** out of here!

Dempsey 1919
04-06-2006, 03:53 PM
Tyson TKO-2 Godfrey?

Get the **** out of here!

oops! didn't know how big godfrey was. there, i changed it. you happy now? :D

Yogi
04-06-2006, 04:10 PM
oops! didn't know how big godfrey was. there, i changed it. you happy now? :D

No, I'm not happy, because it seems that you not only didn't know how big Godfrey was...but it also looks like you don't have even a clue as how good he was, what he'd bring to the table in this matchup against Tyson, and how this fight would more than likely play out.

I won't disagree with you favouring Tyson to win, but to me that fight has "decision" written ALL over it.

Brassangel
04-06-2006, 04:13 PM
Tyson would likely win via decision or stoppage through sheer volume of punches. Many people forget that he was capable of taking decisions in fights with larger men when he had trouble landing the knockout combinations. It's the only way he could stand up to some of the larger hall-of-famers like Godfrey, Holmes, and Ali.

I'll post my decisions once I get a few more on here. Feel free to extend your own predictions past the first round if you wish.

Dempsey 1919
04-06-2006, 04:42 PM
this is my secection:

1. Muhammad Ali vs. 4. Jersey Joe Watcott(ali ko10)
3. Jack Johnson vs. 2. Jack Dempsey(dempsey ko7)

1. Rocky Marciano vs. 4. Evander Holyfield(holyfield md15)
3. Joe Frazier vs. 2. Mike Tyson(frazier tko8)

1. Joe Louis vs. 5. Riddick Bowe(louis ko14)
3. Lennox Lewis vs. 2. George Foreman(foreman ko3)

1. Larry Holmes vs. 4. Ezzard Charles(holmes tko13)
6. Jack Sharkey vs. 2. Sonny Liston(liston ko 3)

:D

after the second round...

1. Muhammad Ali vs. 2. Jack Dempsey

4. Evander Holyfield vs. 3. Joe Frazier

1. Joe Louis vs. 2. George Foreman

1. Larry Holmes vs. 2. Sonny Liston

:boxing:

Yogi
04-06-2006, 04:51 PM
On a side note: We are all very aware that butterfly1964 will pick Ali vs. Liston in the final, so it's okay if he doesn't even bother to post.

Quoted for a particular someone's benefit.

Dempsey 1919
04-06-2006, 04:54 PM
Quoted for a particular someone's benefit.

and if i do, then that's my opinion. :rolleyes:

Yogi
04-06-2006, 04:56 PM
and if i do, then that's my opinion. :rolleyes:

:rolleyes:

K-DOGG
04-06-2006, 05:00 PM
I've been absent for some time now; my wife and I just had a beautiful baby girl. Her name is Genesis (Genna for short). I decided to return in lieu of the crazy upset-fest that was the men's division of March Madness. Since this is a boxing forum, however, I will keep my eye on the prize.

The following is a 32-fighter tournament in the heavyweight division. 64 seemed extremely daunting, or else I would have completed this in it's entirety. Feel free to grumble about some of the standings, or just have fun with it! The fighters were chosen based on some personal research, and from that of the other good boxing scholars on this very website and their historical points of view. Keep in mind that the fighters were given their seatings within each bracket, and does not represent my personal opinions of their actual ranking. Fill in the brackets, and post your results if you wish. One may get really ambitious and indicate the round in which the fight ends. Enjoy!

A few things to be aware of: All fighters are allegedly in their "primes" for this tournament. No partying the night before, all of the proper training is there, no layoffs (or excuses); and above all, STYLE COUNTS! Even the magnificent #1 fighters can run into a difficult style matchup, no matter how fast or powerful he may have been. They are all human, so please, do a little research and fill in the blanks accordingly.

On a side note: We are all very aware that butterfly1964 will pick Ali vs. Liston in the final, so it's okay if he doesn't even bother to post.


****EDIT**** I had a nice spreadsheet with all of the brackets lined up, but I just realized that I can't post attachments on here. Yarr... Well, here's the watered down version.

1. Muhammad Ali vs. 8. Archie Moore
4. Jersey Joe Walcott vs. 5. Max Schmeling
3. Jack Johnson vs. 6. Joe Jeanette
2. Jack Dempsey vs. 7. James Corbett

1. Rocky Marciano vs. 8. Cleveland Williams
4. Evander Holyfield vs. 5. Ken Norton
3. Joe Frazier vs. 6. Max Baer
2. Mike Tyson vs. 7. George Godfrey

1. Joe Louis vs. 8. Jimmy Young
4. Floyd Patterson vs. 5. Riddick Bowe
3. Lennox Lewis vs. 6. Jerry Quarry
2. George Foreman vs. 7. Elmer Ray

1. Larry Holmes vs. 8. Harry Wills
4. Ezzard Charles vs. 5. Gene Tunney
3. Jim Jeffries vs. 6. Jack Sharkey
2. Sonny Liston vs. 7. Peter Jackson

Again...yarr.. :boxing:

Congratulatons on the new addition!

Now...the picks:

Ali vs Moore............Archie was slick as hell and not easily stopped; but Muhammad's speed, I think, would be the difference.....Ali by TKO in 12

Walcott vs Schmeling....damn this one's tough; but I'd have to give the edge to Schmeling, who was a helluva boxer in his own right and would beat Walcott in his physical prime, when he wasn't that impressive as well as in his "prime" when he was in his late 30's; but JJ would still offer up enough to make it an intriguing chess match. Schmeling by SD

Johnson vs Jeanette....Damn, 'nother tough un; but I'd have to go with Johnson. True Joe wasn't in his prime when he and Johnson squred off like 5 or 6 times and only twice for official decisions, of which one was a draw and the other a W 15 by Johnson. However, I just think Johnson was a better boxer and would have beaten Jeanette in his prime in a very close decision....Johnson by close UD.

Dempsey vs Corbett...great style match-up; but Jack was a better boxer than given credit for...better than Sullivan and Jeffries, so this fight's close...also, Corbett is very underated; but I still have to go with Dempsey....more than likely by late round stoppage, I'm guessing 13 or 14......Dempsey by KO in 13.

Marciano vs Williams.....well, Cleveland's chin wasn't the best against the harder punchers he faced while Marciano's made of pure granite. Cleveland would start off looking to pound the smaller Marciano into the canvas; but a few shots later would want take a more cautious approach...to no avail.......Marciano by KO in 5.

Holyfield vs Norton.....DAMN! What a fight this would have been. Norton had trouble with punchers more than anything, of which Evander was not one, so this would look similar to Dokes-Holyfield or Holmes-Norton in terms of action. However, Holy did drop Bowe, Tyson, and got Dokes on his way, which indicates he could hurt you and his chin was far better than Norton's so...Got to go with Commander Vander.....Holyfield by KO in 8.

Frazier vs Baer.....Not a good match up for Joe. This resembles another fight Joe had with a big, tall, ko artist; but I see it going a little longer than the Foreman fight given Max's tendency to clown where George had no sense of humor.......Baer by KO in 5.

Tyson vs Godfrey.....REALLY NOT a Good Match for Mike. Godfrey was a big, strong, rough heavyweight with a good chin...not good for Mike; and trained by Jack Blackburn...REALLY NOT GOOD. The first rounds might look like Forman-Lyle; but I doubt it, George knew how to tie up and rough house when he needed. I've got to go with Godfrey.......Godfrey by KO in 9.

Louis vs Young.....Young's style might have been effective against Ali and Foreman...and even gave Norton fits; but not Louis. Joe was in a whole 'nother class of fighter. Jimmy might give him trouble early on; but as Joe said, "....you can't hide.".........Louis by KO in 11.

Patterson vs Bowe.....Interesting style match-up; but, ultimately, I think Floyd's size disadvantage would do him in in this one. Both men would be trading licks and neither had a great chin; but Bowe hit harder........Bowe by KO in 6.

Lewis vs Quarry.....once again, the tell tale sign in this fight is size...that and Quarry busted up relatively easy and Lewis's punches could cut as well as hurt you. It would be interesting for a few rounds; but, ultimately, I've got to go with Lewis....Lewis by TKO in 7.

Foreman vs Ray.....Not good for Ray. Not only is he at a tremendous size disadvantage; but Elmer didn't take a punch as good as he might........Foreman by KO in 3.

Holmes vs Willis.....from all I've read about Wills, he was not a superb boxer, just a strong slugger with modest ability. Anybody who can't box is in trouble with Holmes. Larry's jab would eat him alive. Now, that's not to say Holmes would run all over him; but I do believe The Easton Assassin" would outbox the "Black Panther"........Holmes by UD.

Charles vs Tunney.....Now THIS is an interesting match. Both were smaller heavyweights, both were excellent boxers, both also fought good competition; but I'd give the edge to Charles in the competition department...as well as the power and speed department. Skillwise, it's a toss-up.........Charles by very close UD.

Jeffries vs Sharkey.....Sharkey and Jeffries are both underrated; but I feel Jeff has more in the mental toughness department. The Boston Gobb was a very moody sort whereas The Boiler Maker was sturdy as a tree by the river. It's easy to see Sharkey outboxing the big bear; but it's not so easy when one considers the kind of pressure and hard shots Jeff would be putting on him continuously. If Jack folded to distraction and a low blow and to Carnera, I can't see him out-toughing Big Jeff........Jeffries by KO in 10.

Liston vs Jackson....Hmmm. Well, these two are about the same size; but Jackson fought in a vastly different era. Supposedly a slick boxer/puncher; and had to be tough to go 61 rounds with a prime Corbett; but there's the rubb. Corbett didn't punch nearly as hard as Liston, I'll wager. So hard to say on this one for fear of prejudice against another time; but ultimately that's what it comes down to. Slick Boxeer in Corbett and Sullivan's time doesn't necessarily equal slick boxer in Liston and Ali's time. Have to go with the powerful jab of Liston, which would have been a force in any era.......Liston by TKO in 7. (I do admit I am less sure of this pick than ANY of the others, being not that familiar with Jackson)

Dempsey 1919
04-06-2006, 05:01 PM
:rolleyes:

what's wrong with that? it's not like liston's a bum or something.

Yogi
04-06-2006, 05:17 PM
what's wrong with that? it's not like liston's a bum or something.

:rolleyes:

Dempsey 1919
04-06-2006, 05:18 PM
:rolleyes:

stop doing this :rolleyes: !

Yogi
04-06-2006, 05:22 PM
stop doing this :rolleyes: !

:rolleyes:

Dempsey 1919
04-06-2006, 05:24 PM
:rolleyes:

you think you're funny, don't you?

Yogi
04-06-2006, 05:45 PM
Tyson vs Godfrey.....REALLY NOT a Good Match for Mike. Godfrey was a big, strong, rough heavyweight with a good chin...not good for Mike; and trained by Jack Blackburn...REALLY NOT GOOD. The first rounds might look like Forman-Lyle; but I doubt it, George knew how to tie up and rough house when he needed. I've got to go with Godfrey.......Godfrey by KO in 9.

See Butterfly...now K-DOGG here has a clue as to who George Godfrey was & what problems he'd present to Tyson, and even though I don't quite see the fight playing out like he does, to me his outcome is MUCH more likely than the ones you put forth (to me this is a "short exchange then clinch", "short exchange then clinch", "short exchange then clinch"...rinse & repeat type of fight that goes the full distance).

Godfrey is a big, tough, tremendously strong (especially in the clinches), and intimidating heavyweight (a gentle giant outside the ring, though), who can also "rough" it up whenever the mood suited him...But he wasn't only that, as he also possessed good footwork, pretty quick hands for a big guy, very good defense coming inside on the attack (looks to clinch quickly after throwing a couple of bombs), pretty good upperbody reflexes, decent outside skills behind the jab, and had exceptional power in his punches (best punch probably being a pretty quick & powerful lead left hook...right uppercut may be his second best punch).

To me, George Godfrey is almost a cross between Liston & Foreman in style/attributes, only a little bit bigger and slightly more defensive minded.

Brassangel
04-07-2006, 01:02 AM
1. Muhammad Ali vs. 8. Archie Moore
4. Jersey Joe Walcott vs. 5. Max Schmeling
3. Jack Johnson vs. 6. Joe Jeanette
2. Jack Dempsey vs. 7. James Corbett

1. Rocky Marciano vs. 8. Cleveland Williams
4. Evander Holyfield vs. 5. Ken Norton
3. Joe Frazier vs. 6. Max Baer
2. Mike Tyson vs. 7. George Godfrey

1. Joe Louis vs. 8. Jimmy Young
4. Floyd Patterson vs. 5. Riddick Bowe
3. Lennox Lewis vs. 6. Jerry Quarry
2. George Foreman vs. 7. Elmer Ray

1. Larry Holmes vs. 8. Harry Wills
4. Ezzard Charles vs. 5. Gene Tunney
3. Jim Jeffries vs. 6. Jack Sharkey
2. Sonny Liston vs. 7. Peter Jackson

WINNERS

1. Ali vs. 5. Schmeling
3. Johnson vs. 2. Dempsey

1. Marciano vs. 4. Holyfield
6. Baer vs. 2. Tyson

1. Louis vs. 5. Bowe
3. Lewis vs. 2. Foreman

1. Holmes vs. 4. Charles
3. Jeffries vs. 2. Liston

KEY NOTES
I had to make a similar upset prediction to K-DOGG's and go with Baer over Frazier. Smokin' Joe was a warrior, but if there was one weakness, it was a long reach, and bone crunching power. I picked Tyson over Godfrey, as I imagined this fight going similar to the Tyson vs. Biggs matchup. Godfrey was big, defensive, and had quick hand speed, but a prime Mike could score enough to impress the judges and steal a decision. I think that Holyfield could be a sleeper, as he is incredibly tough, has great counter-punching ability, as well as patience and heart.

Coming soon...more analysis and round 2 predictions.

Oh yeah, and :rolleyes:

Brassangel
04-07-2006, 03:01 PM
1. Ali vs. 5. Schmeling
3. Johnson vs. 2. Dempsey

1. Marciano vs. 4. Holyfield
6. Baer vs. 2. Tyson

1. Louis vs. 5. Bowe
3. Lewis vs. 2. Foreman

1. Holmes vs. 4. Charles
3. Jeffries vs. 2. Liston


WINNERS

1. Ali vs. 2. Dempsey
4. Holyfield vs. 2. Tyson
1. Louis vs. 2. Foreman
1. Holmes vs. 2. Liston

KEY NOTES

A lot of 1's vs. 2's. While that's the ideal way we would all like the tournament(s) to turn out, upsets are bound to happen. I actually think that Baer may have been favored over Tyson, simply given his size. Then again, Tyson had minimal respect for people, especially opponents who clowned around. Holyfield was able to fend off Marciano's attack and steal the points war. Most people will probably disagree with this decision, but to each his/her own. Louis vs. Bowe would be an interesting contest, but I believe that Joe's superior boxing skills and tactical mindset would give him the edge. Lewis vs. Foreman is a match I'm still not sold on yet. On various polls, 80% of the people on this website selected Foreman to KO Lewis, but Lewis was a larger man...much larger. He also posessed more boxing skills and decent defensive abilities. Even so, G. Foe was pretty frieking destructive. Holmes can outbox almost anyone, hence my decision over Charles. It would be a solid competition, but Larry would probably gain the advantage in the mid to late rounds. Jeffries and Liston were both fine physical specimens, but I believe that Sonny's reach and work behind the jab (during his prime) would give him the edge. As a side note, people really need to study Jeffries and stop basing his greatness, or lack thereof, on his fight with Johnson.

Elite 8, coming up!

K-DOGG
04-08-2006, 06:06 PM
1. Muhammad Ali vs. 8. Archie Moore
4. Jersey Joe Walcott vs. 5. Max Schmeling
3. Jack Johnson vs. 6. Joe Jeanette
2. Jack Dempsey vs. 7. James Corbett

1. Rocky Marciano vs. 8. Cleveland Williams
4. Evander Holyfield vs. 5. Ken Norton
3. Joe Frazier vs. 6. Max Baer
2. Mike Tyson vs. 7. George Godfrey

1. Joe Louis vs. 8. Jimmy Young
4. Floyd Patterson vs. 5. Riddick Bowe
3. Lennox Lewis vs. 6. Jerry Quarry
2. George Foreman vs. 7. Elmer Ray

1. Larry Holmes vs. 8. Harry Wills
4. Ezzard Charles vs. 5. Gene Tunney
3. Jim Jeffries vs. 6. Jack Sharkey
2. Sonny Liston vs. 7. Peter Jackson

WINNERS

1. Ali vs. 5. Schmeling
3. Johnson vs. 2. Dempsey

1. Marciano vs. 4. Holyfield
6. Baer vs. 2. Tyson

1. Louis vs. 5. Bowe
3. Lewis vs. 2. Foreman

1. Holmes vs. 4. Charles
3. Jeffries vs. 2. Liston

KEY NOTES
I had to make a similar upset prediction to K-DOGG's and go with Baer over Frazier. Smokin' Joe was a warrior, but if there was one weakness, it was a long reach, and bone crunching power. I picked Tyson over Godfrey, as I imagined this fight going similar to the Tyson vs. Biggs matchup. Godfrey was big, defensive, and had quick hand speed, but a prime Mike could score enough to impress the judges and steal a decision. I think that Holyfield could be a sleeper, as he is incredibly tough, has great counter-punching ability, as well as patience and heart.

Coming soon...more analysis and round 2 predictions.

Oh yeah, and :rolleyes:

Damn, sorry it took so long to get back. Now I've got two seeds to go through. :)

Okay, picks on Round 2 (even though they've already been "decided" :) )

Ali vs Schmeling....This one I see as a tactical battle for 15 rounds. Schmeling was a well schooled technician; but would be at a huge disadvantage from a size and speed perspective, which would ultimately be the difference in the fight.....Ali by UD.

Johnson vs Dempsey....Great style match up; offense personified vs defensive personified. Surely no one was better at fending off punches and countering than Jack Johnson; but it's hard for me to imagine him fending off a blizzard like Dempsey would be throwing early on without getting tagged a few times at least. The way I see it, there are two determining factors in this bout. 1.)Dempsey was the first fighter that I know of that used the kind of head movement and ferocity that is still being used...he, essentially, was the first "modern" fighter. Jack Johnson, great as he was, to me knowledge, never faced a fighter as hard to hit as Dempsey and Johnson wasn't known for his activity anyway...so, he would have trouble connecting solidly on Dempsey and while he could punch, Dempsey could take a shot, so this fight's going the distance from Johnson's perspective. The second factor #2...is Dempsey's oft underrated boxing ability. He is remembered primarily as a slugger; but he was far more than that. He proved against the crafty Tommy Gibbons that he could box when the occasion called for it....and it surely would against Johnson..........Dempsey by SD.

Marciano vs Holyfield....Call it two crusierweights going to war...or hell, you pick. Tyson said Holyfield was the best counterpuncher he ever faced and it's reasonable to presume Evander would try to fight a similar fight against Rocky that he did against Tyson who is about the same height. This fight would look like an amalgom of Holyfield-Tyson, Holyfield-Qawi, and Marciano-Charles, IMO. There are several differences, of course; Marciano's deceptive defense where he leaned back and away from the right hand and Holy punching harder than Charles; but while I see a few potential knockdowns for Holy in this affair, I can't see him stopping Marciano unless it's on a cut. Conversely, Rocky gets no one puncher against Evander; but I can see his constant pressure wearing on Evander over the 15 round course.........Marciano by TKO in 13.

Baer vs Tyson....Damn! Don't leave your seat for any reason! Baer showed against Louis that he could be stopped by a hard puncher with fast hands and a good left hook. Granted, Tyson wasn't the technician that Louis was; but neither was Baer. This one would be a wild affair for as long as it went.....Tyson by KO in 4.

Louis vs Bowe....TIMBER!!! Louis, IMO, was too well schooled and hit too hard for the bigger Bowe. Riddick showed against Holyfield, who is not a knock-out puncher, that he could be hurt. Now, that's not to say Bowe wouldn't get Louis on the canvas, for I can see that as well; but when it come time to dig deep, Joe's got the edge..........Louis by TKO in 9.

Lewis vs Foreman....Two things; Foreman showed he could battle back through adversity as he did against Lyle, while Lewis showed he could be stopped with one shot against mediocre competition with above average power. If one were to describe George's power, "above average" are not the words that come to mind. True, Lewis was a far superior boxer and had pop of his own; but his chin vs Forman's power is the difference here, IMO.......Foreman by KO in 3.

Holmes vs Charles....No doubt Charles speed and ability would give Holmes some trouble; but, once again, Holmes jab is no cupcake and he would use it to great effect to keep the smaller man where he wanted him. Talk about a chess match.....Holmes by UD.

Jeffries vs Liston......Liston was the better boxer and faster of hand while both men hit incredibly hard and both could take a tremendous shot. I think the issue here could be stamina. I can see Liston building up an early lead; but Jeff's punches to the ribs as well as Sonny's head wearing on him down the stretch. Liston's jab would undoubtedly bust Jeff's mug up by the time the fight reached the final stanzas; but by that point I can see Sonny fighting with his mouth open and either quitting on his stool or being stopped. There was no quit in Jeff, while we know Liston quit at least once. This fight comes down to mentality.........Jeffries comes from behind to win.......Jeffires by TKO in 11.

Least...that's how I see 'em. ;)

K-DOGG
04-08-2006, 07:22 PM
1. Ali vs. 5. Schmeling
3. Johnson vs. 2. Dempsey

1. Marciano vs. 4. Holyfield
6. Baer vs. 2. Tyson

1. Louis vs. 5. Bowe
3. Lewis vs. 2. Foreman

1. Holmes vs. 4. Charles
3. Jeffries vs. 2. Liston


WINNERS

1. Ali vs. 2. Dempsey
4. Holyfield vs. 2. Tyson
1. Louis vs. 2. Foreman
1. Holmes vs. 2. Liston

KEY NOTES

A lot of 1's vs. 2's. While that's the ideal way we would all like the tournament(s) to turn out, upsets are bound to happen. I actually think that Baer may have been favored over Tyson, simply given his size. Then again, Tyson had minimal respect for people, especially opponents who clowned around. Holyfield was able to fend off Marciano's attack and steal the points war. Most people will probably disagree with this decision, but to each his/her own. Louis vs. Bowe would be an interesting contest, but I believe that Joe's superior boxing skills and tactical mindset would give him the edge. Lewis vs. Foreman is a match I'm still not sold on yet. On various polls, 80% of the people on this website selected Foreman to KO Lewis, but Lewis was a larger man...much larger. He also posessed more boxing skills and decent defensive abilities. Even so, G. Foe was pretty frieking destructive. Holmes can outbox almost anyone, hence my decision over Charles. It would be a solid competition, but Larry would probably gain the advantage in the mid to late rounds. Jeffries and Liston were both fine physical specimens, but I believe that Sonny's reach and work behind the jab (during his prime) would give him the edge. As a side note, people really need to study Jeffries and stop basing his greatness, or lack thereof, on his fight with Johnson.

Elite 8, coming up!

Okay, here we go.

Ali vs Dempsey....Think of Ali-Frazier I and give Frazier more power and give Ali better legs. This fight would be as thrilling with as many ebs and flows as you can imagine; one man in charge, then another, neither willing to quit. I know it's getting repetitive; but Ali's hand and footspeed are the ultimate difference...but in this fight, he'll have to dig down as he did with Frazier and show his tremendous heart, for Dempsey would take him to that place. I can see Dempsey's hook hurting Ali on a couple of occasions as Jack would force him to the ropes and pound mercilessly at Muhammad's ribs; but, ultimately, I see Ali gutting it out and ripping Jack's face to shreds down the stretch and getting him in trouble on a couple of occasions as well. This one has "Fight of the Century" written all over it...........Ali by close UD.

Holyfield vs Tyson.....Man oh man, the fight we NEVER saw; prime Evander vs prime Tyson. I do think it would look similar to their first encounter, for sure; but with far more work and head movement by Mike. Look for Evander to be dropped early in this one, like in the 3rd, after he starts to get comfortable. This one would be hard fought back and forth action with both men scoring and landing solid. This may surprise some; but I see Mike stopping Holy around the 7th. Prime Mike was far more motivated than post-prison Mike and through better combinations and pressed harder and was harder to hit. Evander, on the other hand, has never been a defensive genius; and you can't keep getting hit by Mike.........Tyson by TKO in 7.

Louis vs Foreman......Not a good match up for George. Louis was a far better technician and could punch as well. George might have Joe on queer street early on; but Joe was dangerous when he was hurt...ask Tami Mauriello...........Louis by TKO in 6.

Holmes vs Liston.....One word; Hamburger....that's what Liston's face would look like after eating Larry's jab for 7 or 8 rounds. Sonny had a great jab too; but I feel Larry's was faster and don't forget, timing has everything to do with a jab as well. Sonny would land his too; but not as many and not as often. He might get Holmes hurt; but Larry always fought out of danger and his heart was as big as he was, the same cannot be said for Liston...............Holmes by TKO in 11.

SonnyG8R
04-09-2006, 02:38 PM
1. Muhammad Ali vs. 8. Archie Moore
4. Jersey Joe Walcott vs. 5. Max Schmeling
3. Jack Johnson vs. 6. Joe Jeanette
2. Jack Dempsey vs. 7. James Corbett

1. Rocky Marciano vs. 8. Cleveland Williams
4. Evander Holyfield vs. 5. Ken Norton
3. Joe Frazier vs. 6. Max Baer
2. Mike Tyson vs. 7. George Godfrey

1. Joe Louis vs. 8. Jimmy Young
4. Floyd Patterson vs. 5. Riddick Bowe
3. Lennox Lewis vs. 6. Jerry Quarry
2. George Foreman vs. 7. Elmer Ray

1. Larry Holmes vs. 8. Harry Wills
4. Ezzard Charles vs. 5. Gene Tunney
3. Jim Jeffries vs. 6. Jack Sharkey
2. Sonny Liston vs. 7. Peter Jackson

supaduck
04-09-2006, 02:48 PM
This isn't meant to offend brassangel in any way, but if my parents had called me genesis, i'd have murdered them in their sleep.

SonnyG8R
04-09-2006, 02:49 PM
1. Muhammad Ali vs. Jersey Joe Walcott
3. Jack Johnson vs. Jack Dempsey

1. Rocky Marciano vs. Ken Norton
3. Joe Frazier vs. Mike Tyson

1. Joe Louis vs. Riddick Bowe
3. Lennox Lewis vs. George Foreman

1. Larry Holmes vs. Gene Tunney
3. Jim Jeffries vs Sonny Liston

Brassangel
04-10-2006, 01:08 AM
@everybody: I didn't "decide" who won, they were just my predictions. Any personal picks, opinions, and so on are fair game.

@supaduck: This isn't meant to offend you in any way, but I hope that someone kills you in your sleep. No, actually, I hope that you are awake and making comments like this one. She was our first creation, precious and pure, so, like the Book, she was given the name Genesis. Besides, it's only her name proper; Genna is for short.

Now, back to the tournament.

Originall posted by K-DOGG
Okay, here we go.

Ali vs Dempsey....Think of Ali-Frazier I and give Frazier more power and give Ali better legs. This fight would be as thrilling with as many ebs and flows as you can imagine; one man in charge, then another, neither willing to quit. I know it's getting repetitive; but Ali's hand and footspeed are the ultimate difference...but in this fight, he'll have to dig down as he did with Frazier and show his tremendous heart, for Dempsey would take him to that place. I can see Dempsey's hook hurting Ali on a couple of occasions as Jack would force him to the ropes and pound mercilessly at Muhammad's ribs; but, ultimately, I see Ali gutting it out and ripping Jack's face to shreds down the stretch and getting him in trouble on a couple of occasions as well. This one has "Fight of the Century" written all over it...........Ali by close UD.

Holyfield vs Tyson.....Man oh man, the fight we NEVER saw; prime Evander vs prime Tyson. I do think it would look similar to their first encounter, for sure; but with far more work and head movement by Mike. Look for Evander to be dropped early in this one, like in the 3rd, after he starts to get comfortable. This one would be hard fought back and forth action with both men scoring and landing solid. This may surprise some; but I see Mike stopping Holy around the 7th. Prime Mike was far more motivated than post-prison Mike and through better combinations and pressed harder and was harder to hit. Evander, on the other hand, has never been a defensive genius; and you can't keep getting hit by Mike.........Tyson by TKO in 7.

Louis vs Foreman......Not a good match up for George. Louis was a far better technician and could punch as well. George might have Joe on queer street early on; but Joe was dangerous when he was hurt...ask Tami Mauriello...........Louis by TKO in 6.

Holmes vs Liston.....One word; Hamburger....that's what Liston's face would look like after eating Larry's jab for 7 or 8 rounds. Sonny had a great jab too; but I feel Larry's was faster and don't forget, timing has everything to do with a jab as well. Sonny would land his too; but not as many and not as often. He might get Holmes hurt; but Larry always fought out of danger and his heart was as big as he was, the same cannot be said for Liston...............Holmes by TKO in 11.

FINAL FOUR

I like your selections, and the reasoning behind each one. Because of this, I will continue on your play as though it's a "choose your own adventure" of sorts. The only choice that I find truly debatable is George Foreman vs. Joe Louis. The circumstances would determine a lot. For example, if both fighters were using 4 oz. gloves like they did back in the day, then Foreman could tear someone's head off. Louis did have a great mind for figuring out his opponents, and he fought well under the pressure of being hurt, but he never suffered the wrath of Big George. Getting off to a slow start might not be good against Foreman, but Louis was arguably the greatest heavyweight champ of all-time.

Muhammad Ali vs. Mike Tyson
-Who are we kidding? This is the fight everyone would want to watch! Two of the largest draws of this great sport going head-to-head in their respective primes. 8 out of 10 fans and critics (including myself) would select Ali for this matchup without much thought. That's where the change occurs for me, however. We can't simply say "Ali was too fast," or "Tyson was almost invincible" or my favorite, "Tyson would get frustrated," because that downplays the seriousness of this match. Guys throughout history who had a "bully" style like Frazier, Dempsey, a younger Liston, and even Marciano would always give Ali trouble. Their hope would consist of cutting off the ring and countering the jab. Well, Mike was quicker on his feet than either of the above-listed fighters, had power that was on par with them, and had a 19 1/2" neck to absorb the jab. The jab of Muhammad Ali tended to have trouble against fighters like this because their defense was awkward and constantly in motion. Tyson had better head movement than most guys Ali faced, and could cut off the ring faster than most people could dream of dancing around it. He could deliver serious punishment to the body, and a small opening could be exploited with either hand, which wasn't always the case with other fighters that had his level of power.

Muhammad Ali was a great ring general; perhaps the greatest (no pun intended). He usually spent the first few rounds figuring out his opponents before developing a good jab rhythm, and knowing when to flurry to win the rounds on the judges's cards. He was very fluid on his feet, and had incredible hand speed to catch his opponents off guard. His ability to keep his adversaries at distance might give him a tremendous advantage against Iron Mike as it has on so many other occassions.

One man wants to figure the other out, while slipping and skipping and finding weaknesses. The other man doesn't want to offer any chances to his opponent to figure him out while he spends the experimental rounds tearing him down, making it difficult to keep one's guard up later on. Both are trigger fast, both have stamina, and both have little respect for their opponent's abilities.

Joe Louis vs. Larry Holmes
-The quiet greats. While Larry Holmes was arrogant, he practically goes forgotten on many people's radars because his reign came at the end of one great and was followed by another. Both of which were very attractive draws who promised excitement. He was very skilled, however, almost as much so as his sparring partner, Ali. He had a little more sting to his punches, and tried not to be so clockwise, one-dimensional.

Joe Louis would be given a grand opportunity to figure out his opponent, as Holmes rarely went for the early KO. Even speedy dancers might have trouble disrupting whatever plan would formulate in the foot-slogging, but quick-handed Brown Bomber's head. This match is as difficult to guage as the other semifinal; and while it might not be as exciting, I'd pay a boat load to watch it!

VERDICT
I can't decide! Perhaps Yogi, K-DOGG, myself, and anyone else who wishes can put our heads together and decide who moves on to the championship match. Believe me, a series for each round would have made this much, much simpler. All that I ask is that we avoid short-sided, sweeping statements based on who our favorite boxers are; as these comments tend to lack true information or credible research. Also, no "Fighter A beat Fighter B, and Fighter B beat Fighter C, so Fighter A would beat Fighter C," garbage. After all, Frazier and Norton beat Ali, and Foreman beat Frazier and Norton (humiliatingly so), so Foreman was supposed to beat Ali, right? :rolleyes:

:boxing:

K-DOGG
04-10-2006, 10:32 AM
@everybody: I didn't "decide" who won, they were just my predictions. Any personal picks, opinions, and so on are fair game.

@supaduck: This isn't meant to offend you in any way, but I hope that someone kills you in your sleep. No, actually, I hope that you are awake and making comments like this one. She was our first creation, precious and pure, so, like the Book, she was given the name Genesis. Besides, it's only her name proper; Genna is for short.

Now, back to the tournament.



FINAL FOUR

I like your selections, and the reasoning behind each one. Because of this, I will continue on your play as though it's a "choose your own adventure" of sorts. The only choice that I find truly debatable is George Foreman vs. Joe Louis. The circumstances would determine a lot. For example, if both fighters were using 4 oz. gloves like they did back in the day, then Foreman could tear someone's head off. Louis did have a great mind for figuring out his opponents, and he fought well under the pressure of being hurt, but he never suffered the wrath of Big George. Getting off to a slow start might not be good against Foreman, but Louis was arguably the greatest heavyweight champ of all-time.

Muhammad Ali vs. Mike Tyson
-Who are we kidding? This is the fight everyone would want to watch! Two of the largest draws of this great sport going head-to-head in their respective primes. 8 out of 10 fans and critics (including myself) would select Ali for this matchup without much thought. That's where the change occurs for me, however. We can't simply say "Ali was too fast," or "Tyson was almost invincible" or my favorite, "Tyson would get frustrated," because that downplays the seriousness of this match. Guys throughout history who had a "bully" style like Frazier, Dempsey, a younger Liston, and even Marciano would always give Ali trouble. Their hope would consist of cutting off the ring and countering the jab. Well, Mike was quicker on his feet than either of the above-listed fighters, had power that was on par with them, and had a 19 1/2" neck to absorb the jab. The jab of Muhammad Ali tended to have trouble against fighters like this because their defense was awkward and constantly in motion. Tyson had better head movement than most guys Ali faced, and could cut off the ring faster than most people could dream of dancing around it. He could deliver serious punishment to the body, and a small opening could be exploited with either hand, which wasn't always the case with other fighters that had his level of power.

Muhammad Ali was a great ring general; perhaps the greatest (no pun intended). He usually spent the first few rounds figuring out his opponents before developing a good jab rhythm, and knowing when to flurry to win the rounds on the judges's cards. He was very fluid on his feet, and had incredible hand speed to catch his opponents off guard. His ability to keep his adversaries at distance might give him a tremendous advantage against Iron Mike as it has on so many other occassions.

One man wants to figure the other out, while slipping and skipping and finding weaknesses. The other man doesn't want to offer any chances to his opponent to figure him out while he spends the experimental rounds tearing him down, making it difficult to keep one's guard up later on. Both are trigger fast, both have stamina, and both have little respect for their opponent's abilities.

Joe Louis vs. Larry Holmes
-The quiet greats. While Larry Holmes was arrogant, he practically goes forgotten on many people's radars because his reign came at the end of one great and was followed by another. Both of which were very attractive draws who promised excitement. He was very skilled, however, almost as much so as his sparring partner, Ali. He had a little more sting to his punches, and tried not to be so clockwise, one-dimensional.

Joe Louis would be given a grand opportunity to figure out his opponent, as Holmes rarely went for the early KO. Even speedy dancers might have trouble disrupting whatever plan would formulate in the foot-slogging, but quick-handed Brown Bomber's head. This match is as difficult to guage as the other semifinal; and while it might not be as exciting, I'd pay a boat load to watch it!

VERDICT
I can't decide! Perhaps Yogi, K-DOGG, myself, and anyone else who wishes can put our heads together and decide who moves on to the championship match. Believe me, a series for each round would have made this much, much simpler. All that I ask is that we avoid short-sided, sweeping statements based on who our favorite boxers are; as these comments tend to lack true information or credible research. Also, no "Fighter A beat Fighter B, and Fighter B beat Fighter C, so Fighter A would beat Fighter C," garbage. After all, Frazier and Norton beat Ali, and Foreman beat Frazier and Norton (humiliatingly so), so Foreman was supposed to beat Ali, right? :rolleyes:

:boxing:

Completely understand the questioning of the Louis-Foreman decision. The reason I decided to go that way...forgot to list it....was primarily the Louis-Baer fight. Baer was very similar to George in style and "finese", so to speak....so, I used that as my model for what Joe was capable of against big bangers of George's make-up.

Back later with my picks on Ali-Tyson and Holmes-Louis. Damn, what a couple of fights.

K-DOGG
04-10-2006, 02:27 PM
Alright, here we go:

Ali vs Tyson....The crowd would be in an uproar so much that they'd have to ring the bell twice to start the fight. Ali and Tyson both rush towards each other with Ali side stepping at the last second to avoid a murderous Tyson hook. Most of the first round would be Tyson rushing in with Ali mouthing off while slipping out of the way. Tyson might get a few body shots in as he bulls Muhammad into the ropes; but Ali's fresh so he doesn't stay too close to Mike for too long.

Here's the thing with this fight. Mike, unlike Frazier, was an extremely fast starter; but after the first 4 or 5 rounds, had a tendency to fight in spurts. Ali, knowing this, would not engage directly with Mike early on. Another factor is how Mike regularly allowed himself to be tied up; meaning that he didn't work on the inside as much as he'd just lay there until the referee would separate him and his opponent....this would undoubtedly work to Ali's advantage as he could dictate the pace of the fight. Also, Mike's head movement would decrease as the fight wore on which means that while he would be hard as hell for Ali to hit in the first few rounds, Muhammad's jab would start finding it's mark with more regularity in the middle rounds. Also remember, Mike needed to get set to unleash his punches and Ali's movement wouldn't allow him to do this very often. I wouldn't be surprised if Mike's hook put Ali on queer street or on his ass at least once; but Ali's resolve is unequaled and he knew how to survive until he found his way out of the "dream room". Ali, I think, could potentially stun Mike a few times by the later rounds; but I don't know if he'd stop him....if he did, Mike would more than likely still be on his feet and it would be a TKO with Mike not firing back. By the later half of the fight, Ali's rapid combinations would be landing with more regularity; but Mike had a really good chin. Ultimately, I've got to go with Ali because Mike wasn't as strong in the later rounds and I can't see him stopping Ali early or dictating the pace..........Ali by TKO in 13.


Holmes and Louis to come.

SABBATH
04-10-2006, 04:48 PM
..........Ali by TKO in 13.


Good call K-Dogg.

Tyson didn't carry his power late in a fight with only 1 KO win past the 7th round while Ali's 'cumulative effect damage' punches accounted for most of his KO's coming in the latter half of championship fights, so if Ali gets past 5 rounds (pretty likely) I see Ali becoming more effective and winning rounds while Tyson winds down and gets frustrated and as he so often did, looks for one big shot at a time.

Personally, I don't see Tyson beating many top 10 ATG heavyweights in a fight that lasts past 5 rounds due to his diminished work rate in longer fights. Due to Tyson's quick starts however, he's got an inside 5 rounds KO chance against most. Assuming Ali goes into the fight respecting Tyson's punching power (as he did against Liston) I see a mobile/clinching Ali getting past 5 rounds of a pretty even fight before Ali pulls away and either wins a decision or late stoppage.

Ali also has a decided edge in mental toughness. Tyson throughout his career showed an inabilty to handle adversity by being unable to come back from knockdowns, cuts or just plain coming back to win a fight he was trailing something that Ali was known for, so in a fight that goes into the later rounds, Ali definitely has the decided edge.

Ali wins.

K-DOGG
04-10-2006, 05:14 PM
Thank you Sabbath...and good post in your own right.

Now, the other semi-final pick:


Holmes-Louis.....This one gives me a migrane just thinking about it. Several bouts come to mind when pondering this odd style match up; Holmes-Norton (Kenny was a plodder, like Louis; but wasn't nearly the technician.....and Larry's jab arm was hurt in that bout), Schmeling-Louis I, Louis-Conn I, & Louis-Walcott I (even though this was an old Louis), and Holmes-Witherspoon (even though that was an older Holmes)....and Maybe Louis-Farr. Both men were well skilled, had good jabs, lots of heart, good stamina, with a power advantage going to Louis.

I can't see this as anything but a tactical match-up with both men exchanging jabs while Louis would be trying to work his way into punching range to catch Larry with his right uppercut, left hook combo; but Joe could hurt you with any punch he threw and I think he would hurt Larry on at least one occasion. Now, here's the difference; Louis showed on several occassions that he could be outboxed, while Larry fought boxers and punchers alike and always found a way to win up until the first Spinks fight....and I can't see Louis fighting in that way. Not to mention, that was an old Holmes. I can see Louis dropping Holmes with a straight right hand because Larry was always vulnerable to that punch amd Joe's right hand was something else. Ultimately though, I see this as a very close bout with both men having their moments and while I may be crucified for this prediction, I just can't see Louis winning against a younger, faster, taller, well-schooled Larry Holmes.........Holmes by close UD.


Let the bullets fly. :D

Brassangel
04-10-2006, 06:07 PM
I think that both of these analyses are accurate. I imagine Muhammad Ali surviving Tyson early, even though he might get rocked and probably knocked down. Tyson's body blows would take it's toll, and rounds 6-9 might actually be lackluster, with Ali trying to cruise to the later rounds. Eventually, Ali gets off a few flurries to end a round or two, and that would, no doubt, frustrate Mike. While he may have a round or two afterwards where he attempts a final attack, a fight between these two which makes it past round 10 would definitely go in Ali's favor. In a 10 or even 12 round competition, Tyson might actually score higher on the cards, given that he would throw (and land) considerable amounts of punches, while being difficult to strike for Ali. In a 15 round fight, Ali would definitely mark up Iron Mike, and there would be stoppage.

For me, the circumstances depend upon the length of the fight, and how well Tyson is able to pin Ali and put punches together in those situations. Really, this would be best suited as a trilogy.

Ali, TKO 13

I don't think that Holmes vs. Louis would be nearly as exciting, as both would seek to counterpunch each other's jabs. Louis would have some shining moments where Holmes would be in trouble, but I agree with both of you in a UD for the Assassin.

Holmes, UD

FINALS

Holmes vs. Ali COMING SOON!

K-DOGG
04-10-2006, 06:15 PM
Holmes vs Ali....man o man am I gonna have to think on this one. Stylewise, this one is gonna be a chess match and ....well, I'll just wait and post later.

K-DOGG
04-10-2006, 06:48 PM
Oh, I can't stand it. I've thought about this one before and it's not an easy pick, and truthfully, could go either way. The one thing I remember about the real Ali-Holmes fight that is a little relative was a fleeting minute in Round 8 when Ali got on his toes, circled Holmes, and double jabbed....and landed, which pissed off Holmes. It hinted at the trouble Larry would have had with a prime Ali. The potential trouble Ali's movement could have had on Holmes can also be seen in round 10 (?) of the Witherspoon fight when Tim got up on his toes for a bit. However, Renaldo Snipes was on the move and Larry's jab took care of him for the most part; but Renaldo is no Ali.

The thing about this match up is how diverse Larry was; he could stalk, counter, or dance. Larry was a better technical boxer than Ali was, his jab was stronger but not as fast, and he had very good body work as oppossed to Ali who had next to nill. Ali was more talented; but Larry was better schooled. Both had huge hearts, Ali was faster and had more fluid movement and a better jaw. Still, Ali had a tendency to pull his head back instead of convential blocking and Larry had pretty fast hands. Power wise...they're both about the same. But Ali was very quick with the right hand...a punch Larry was vulnerable to...and speed, quite often, equals power....especially with a young Ali.

Ali, I think, would most assuredly start off dancing which would put Larry into stalker mode, forcing Holmes to disrupt Ali's rythm with his jab...which he would be capable of doing. Conversely, Ali's jab would be flicking and he he would be looking to counter Larry's jab with a quick right over the top. I think a key point in this match-up is Larry being suceptable to one of Ali's best punchest, the right, while Ali was more suceptable to the left hook...of which, Larry rarely used. What this means is Ali's got one more advantage.

I think the first half of the fight would be a tactical battle with Holmes trying to counter Ali and Ali attempting to counter Homes and counter Holmes' counters and like-wise. Also, Holmes would be trying to not only disrupt Ali's rythm with his jab; but use the jabe to get in close and work on Ali's body and come up with uppercuts, which were some of his better punches.

The thing is I can see Larry's eyes swelling up from Ali's faster jabs where Ali didn't have a tendency to swell, much less get hit. Larry would hit him...I just don't think as often as Ali would hit him back. The swelling around Holmes eyes due to Ali's jab would impair his vision and make him easier to hit as the bout drew on. Also, Ali would start slowing down towards the later rounds from Holmes' body work. Somewhere around the 10th round I can see Ali going in behind a double jab and catching Holmes with a beautiful straight right hand which wobbles him, sending Ali into a follow up flurry which has Holmes reeling. Showing his huge heart, Holmes fires back, catching Ali; but not having enough pop in his punches to hurt the iron-chinned champ...but enough to get his attention and respect. However, Larry opening up would give Ali more countering opportunities. He doesn't get the knock-out; but the tide has finally turned. The last five rounds, Holmes would haved moments; but, overall, I see Ali pulling away............Ali by UD.



There, now I feel better. :)

K-DOGG
04-10-2006, 07:01 PM
Props to BrassAngel for a fascinating thread. :D

Brassangel
04-11-2006, 01:46 AM
Thank you, K-DOGG, and everyone else who participated.

Interesting (if even debatables):

Tyson vs. Ali
-While Ali would likely be the victor, it is important to note that Ali had a tendency to pull his head back as opposed to blocking or clinching. This was usually a poor strategy against fighters with decent speed, as they could catch him on the way back. If, for example, you watch Clay vs. Liston, Sonny often misses with several potentially crunching blows by mere centimeters. Given that he was in his thirties and trained poorly, a younger, more ambitious Liston may have ended Clay's career early with the extra speed that he would have possessed with his hands. I will give due credit to Cassius, however, as his timing was pristine that night.

Joe Frazier's dramatic knockdown of Ali in their first epic battle happened to take place while Ali was leaning his head back to avoid a left hook. While Ali was a little rusty from only having two exhibitions after the layoff, Joe's reach was considerably short. Still, he was able to take advantage of this unorthodox defensive maneuver. Even during Ali's "prime" when he fought Folley (who would never make this top 32), he had trouble when attempting to lean away, as Folley often countered and caught him. In fact, Folley was winning the rounds until a few baby punches broke the glass in his jaw during mid rounds.

In each of these instances, a fighter was able to take subtle advantage of Ali's poor defensive tactic. These fighters rarely capitalized, however, and failed to put punches together when the opportunity presented itself. Frazier was often the closest to achieving this, and thus, found himself a nuisance for Ali. Mike Tyson was always putting punches together when an opportunity presented itself; often for a good 7-8 rounds; sometimes 10 (vs. Biggs, etc.). While he came out of the gates faster and rarely opted to conserve his energy, that usually spelled bad news for his opponents who tried to spend the early rounds settling into a comfort zone. Ali was slippery, and pretty resilient, but I think, given the information presented in this thread, he never put up with an opportunistic aggressor quite like Mike, so we really have no idea whether or not he could realistically stand up to it.

Should the opening have presented itself where Mike catches Muhammad while he's leaning, I guarantee you he would have then attacked the body while Ali brought his gloves up, and then slipped an uppercut into the sweet spot. Call me crazy, but I am going to go against the norm, at the risk of receving flame, and say that Mike Tyson could beat Muhammad Ali in their first meeting. Now, if there was a rematch (which there certainly would be, as Ali was too prideful not to take this option), Ali would win. If there was a third to complete the series, then Ali would probably win big, much like Manilla.

Whew! With that aside, let it be noted that Muhammad Ali was the winner of our March (or April) Madness boxing tournament for 2006!

CHAMPION: MUHAMMAD ALI!

SonnyG8R
04-11-2006, 11:52 AM
This was a very entertaining and educational thread. Thanks for making the thread and to those who contributed to it. Here is how I had the tournament whinding up.

Muhammad Ali vs. Jack Johnson

Ken Norton vs. Mike Tyson

Joe Louis vs. George Foreman

Larry Holmes vs. Jim Jeffries

Final 4:

Ali - Tyson

Foreman - Holmes

Championship Round:

Ali - Holmes

Champ: Muhammad Ali

Brassangel
04-11-2006, 01:06 PM
Thanks to everybody who participated! Now, I would like some suggestions as to which matchups could have been changed, or if any seatings should have been different. Also, who would have been the most likely candidate to shake up the brackets and cause an upset or two?

Next year Muhammad Ali will prepare to defend his crown, and this time, there will be the full 64, along with different pairings to make things a little tougher for the #1 spots.

K-DOGG
04-11-2006, 01:49 PM
Brassangel.....Looking forward to it and, for what it's worth, the style-match-ups have about 90% to do with it. Obviously, I didn't agree with who you chose to go into the second round or the third (can't remember all specific match-ups); but since it was your thread, I went with what you deemed were the quarter-finalist and so forth and so on. For example, I had Tyson losing in the first round due to his match-up with Godfrey, which I though would be extremely difficult for him; but had him winning in the next two rounds also based on style.

Too bad computers can't really disect how a mythical match would go because of the "human-factor"; but it's fun to guess. :)

Can't wait for the next "playoffs".

SonnyG8R
04-11-2006, 04:08 PM
Maybe we could have a middleweight tournament so we don't have to wait until next year.

K-DOGG
04-11-2006, 04:30 PM
Maybe we could have a middleweight tournament so we don't have to wait until next year.

There's a thought.

Brassangel
04-12-2006, 03:04 AM
So many good middleweights...I may have to turn this project over to someone else.

Who knows? I might do another one of these soon. It's best to space them though, or they can grow stale.

As for Tyson vs. Godfrey: While Tyson had trouble knocking out big, tall men, he didn't have trouble hitting them. He still won the majority of such fights even if by decision. Despite his ability to knock people out like it was his job (pun fully intended), he could do enough in the clinches and behind the jab to steal a decision here and there. Also, a tall fighter tends to throw the jab and back up, or clinch. While the clinches held Mike at bay, I have to disagree with your earlier comments pertaining to his lack of effort in a clinch. After he had won the title...yeah, he basically waited for the refs to pull apart the tangled mess. When he was hungry and ambitious, however, he would circle his arms in a down-and-outward motion to pull his opponents' hands away from their body. He would then proceed to fire off alternating shots to devastating effect, or even sneak an uppercut upstairs. When a fighter backs up and away from a bully style fighter like Mike, it invites a looping or wide hook shock, a la Frazier vs. Ali I. Trainers often report that they get nervous when they watch their fighter lean away from a punch, or back up after a jab or short exchange. While that's a person's instinctive reaction, it's certainly not the best course of action against a fighter of this style who possesses such explosiveness.

For these reasons, and various others, I didn't see Godfrey coming out on top against Tyson; I even went on that schpeal about Ali vs. Tyson for similar reasons. I guess I will be a debater ( :p ) about this topic forever.

Props to K-DOGG for intelligent reporting in the field. Signing off for now, as I am way too frieking tired to continue...

Dempsey 1919
04-21-2006, 12:27 PM
after the second round...

1. Muhammad Ali vs. 2. Jack Dempsey(ali tko11)

4. Evander Holyfield vs. 3. Joe Frazier(frazier ko14)

1. Joe Louis vs. 2. George Foreman(foreman ko6)

1. Larry Holmes vs. 2. Sonny Liston(liston ko15)

:boxing:

1. Muhammad Ali vs. 3. Joe Frazier

2. George Foreman vs. 2. Sonny Liston

:D

Dempsey 1919
04-21-2006, 02:36 PM
1. Muhammad Ali vs. 3. Joe Frazier(ali ud15)

2. George Foreman vs. 2. Sonny Liston(liston ko10)

:D

1. Muhammad Ali vs. 2. Sonny Liston

Dempsey 1919
03-03-2007, 01:47 PM
1. Muhammad Ali vs. 2. Sonny Liston

The winner, IMO, Muhammad Ali!

:D

Brassangel
03-04-2007, 12:09 AM
I feel as though I am ready to take this project on once more, and since this thread was so recently *bumped*, I can get it started here. Right now, please help me compile a top 64 all-time heavyweight's list, which I will form the brackets from, and post the pairings (possibly in a new thread).

Brassangel
03-06-2007, 08:36 PM
*BUMP* Since March Madness is about to start, and 98743598734 threads were posted in the last two days.

Brassangel
03-20-2007, 04:58 PM
Okay, so I've jumped ahead to the Sweet 16. After lots of videos and research, I've reached this stage in the tournament. I apologize in advance for skipping what would have been an interesting first few rounds.

Ali vs. Dempsey
Walcott vs. Holmes

Louis vs. Johnson
Frazier vs. Holyfield

[OTHER SIDE]

Marciano vs. Bowe
Lewis vs. Liston

Foreman vs. Tunney
Tyson vs. Patterson


Please PM me your votes, along with any interesting theories and details, and maybe we can get this rolling again. I will write fiction along side a few of these fights to go with the votes; keep in mind, they are all 12 round contests.