View Full Version : Sonny listons peak was 1958 wayne bethea fight


SuzieQ49
03-22-2006, 03:55 PM
- never before did liston display this much speed. his handspeed was faster than in any fights ive seen. his combos fired like lightning into betheas face with explosive power. his movment was great, and unlike in other fights he showed a ultra aggresive side to him chasing bethea down on foot and punishing him with rapid blows. liston usually sits back consering his energy, but in this fight he chased bethea down and went after him like a volcano. he knocked bethea down with a long powerful left hook FOR THE FIRST TIME IN BETHEAS CAREER HE WAS EVER DOWN, and then went after bethea punishing him blows and then bethea turned his back walking away out on his feet and the ref stopped fight.

note: BETHEA WAS NEVER STOPPED BEFORE OR AFTER THE LISTON FIGHTS. LISTON BLEW THIS VERY DURABLE GUY AWAY WITH SPEED, POWER, AGGRESIVENESS THAT HES NEVER SHOWN BEFORE.

- this was defintley liston at his peak


GUESS WUT: liston weighed JUST 204lb


- goes to show you that size is overated and you dont need extra weight to make you powerful. liston had just as much power and strength at 204lb , he was a lot faster and more explosive because he was lean and in top shape. that extra speed he got for being 10lb lighter made him get more snap to his punches. that extra 10lb liston put on slowed him down especially in his movement IMO.



liston at his peak was 6'1 204lb and though butterfly likes to make it seem like liston was this 220lb giant, liston at 204lb in the bethea fight was the best version of sonny IMO.

Dempsey 1919
03-22-2006, 04:36 PM
- never before did liston display this much speed. his handspeed was faster than in any fights ive seen. his combos fired like lightning into betheas face with explosive power. his movment was great, and unlike in other fights he showed a ultra aggresive side to him chasing bethea down on foot and punishing him with rapid blows. liston usually sits back consering his energy, but in this fight he chased bethea down and went after him like a volcano. he knocked bethea down with a long powerful left hook FOR THE FIRST TIME IN BETHEAS CAREER HE WAS EVER DOWN, and then went after bethea punishing him blows and then bethea turned his back walking away out on his feet and the ref stopped fight.

note: BETHEA WAS NEVER STOPPED BEFORE OR AFTER THE LISTON FIGHTS. LISTON BLEW THIS VERY DURABLE GUY AWAY WITH SPEED, POWER, AGGRESIVENESS THAT HES NEVER SHOWN BEFORE.

- this was defintley liston at his peak


GUESS WUT: liston weighed JUST 204lb


- goes to show you that size is overated and you dont need extra weight to make you powerful. liston had just as much power and strength at 204lb , he was a lot faster and more explosive because he was lean and in top shape. that extra speed he got for being 10lb lighter made him get more snap to his punches. that extra 10lb liston put on slowed him down especially in his movement IMO.



liston at his peak was 6'1 204lb and though butterfly likes to make it seem like liston was this 220lb giant, liston at 204lb in the bethea fight was the best version of sonny IMO.

liston was 214 in his prime when he fought patterson. and patterson is waaaaay better than bethea. patterson is extremely fast and that didn't stop liston. that was the best version of liston.

http://www.josportsinc.com/item_images/1069361760.jpg

SuzieQ49
03-22-2006, 06:04 PM
no, liston was overweight slower and he beat up on a very scared fighter who fought a horrible game plan.

listons peak was 1958 vs bethea , he looked better on film

Dempsey 1919
03-22-2006, 06:12 PM
no, liston was overweight slower and he beat up on a very scared fighter who fought a horrible game plan.

listons peak was 1958 vs bethea , he looked better on film

well, you can see that patterson at least tried. it's not like he let liston hit him.

Kid Achilles
03-22-2006, 08:52 PM
Liston was past his best years when he took out Patterson in '62 and '63. You do realize that the second Patterson fight was the fight before he took on Ali right?

Dempsey 1919
03-22-2006, 08:56 PM
Liston was past his best years when he took out Patterson in '62 and '63. You do realize that the second Patterson fight was the fight before he took on Ali right?

liston barely trained for the clay fight.

SuzieQ49
03-22-2006, 09:34 PM
liston should have come in more of his fights around 205lb, he would have found he is much faster.

Dempsey 1919
04-07-2006, 02:48 AM
liston should have come in more of his fights around 205lb, he would have found he is much faster.

210-215 was good enough. :)

mokele
04-07-2006, 08:12 AM
210-215 was good enough. :)

By the standards of modern heavyweights, Liston was always in fighting trim. At 204 lbs. he would be considered a small heavyweight today! That's 1 pound less than Joe Frazier's weight in the 1st Frazier-Ali fight. Chris Byrd usually weighs within a few lbs. of 215 lbs. for his fights and nobody complains that he's too heavy. Liston hit maybe twice as hard as Byrd and was basically a much bigger man, so 215 lbs. was a good weight for Liston.

I think Liston was psychologically beaten by Clay (Ali) even before he stepped into the ring. He didn't really have a good game plan. I don't think that he was that washed-up, just poorly prepared. After he lost to Ali in their 2nd fight he won his next 14 fights in a row and beat some good fighters (Gerhard Zech, Amos Lincoln, Henry Clark), so he was far from washed-up. Maybe he was a little better in the late 1950s or early 1960s, but not by much.

A lot of today's world class heavyweights are overweight, certainly more than in the past. This is more or less what I've been saying for awhile, but some of the heavyweights around today are truly big men, bigger even than Liston or George Foreman. I think that if all of them were in fighting trim they would typically weigh in the 210 to 230 lb. range.

Brassangel
04-07-2006, 11:37 AM
Patterson said in his own biography that he never felt as though he had a chance against Liston. In fact, he said that he basically froze, threw a punch, and when it was basically ineffective, he caved in. Patterson was a good fighter, but he gave up to Liston before the fight began. Sonny was a monster in the late 1950's. He was faster, and relied more heavily on using his jab to set up other punches. In the sixties, when he was in his mid-to-late thirties (at least some sources say), he used his jab far less often.

And yes, weight doesn't always matter. Many people forget that Foreman weighed less than 220 early in his career when he was demolishing people. Maybe it's not about conditioning in the new millenium, but shock absorbing instead. :D

Verstyle
04-07-2006, 12:04 PM
liston barely trained for the clay fight.


ahahaha. what there tryin to say is ali beat an out of his prime liston :D :D . i know thats a dagger to your heart :eek:

Dempsey 1919
04-07-2006, 01:09 PM
ahahaha. what there tryin to say is ali beat an out of his prime liston :D :D . i know thats a dagger to your heart :eek:

not really. ali wasn't in his prime either, was he? :rolleyes:

Verstyle
04-07-2006, 01:12 PM
not really. ali wasn't in his prime either, was he? :rolleyes:

so whats better out of prime or not in prime. i think not in prime. cause when your not in prime u still got hand speed power and all that stuff but when your out of prime all that stuff starts to disappear. HA!

mokele
04-07-2006, 03:47 PM
Maybe it's not about conditioning in the new millenium, but shock absorbing instead. :D

Well, if it's about shock absorbing then Eric "Butterbean" Esch has a leg up on the rest of 'em. :D

http://silversurfer91.homestead.com/files/butterbean_punch.jpg
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/features/1997/yearinreview/perspectives/images/butterbean.jpg
http://todaynews.seesaa.net/image/butterbean.jpg

Kid Achilles
04-07-2006, 03:49 PM
Ali was closer to his prime than Liston. Much closer.

Heckler
04-07-2006, 05:40 PM
He might of been out of his prime, however it becomes obvious that Liston and more to the point his style would struggle with Ali in any point in his career, as with buster and mike, frazier and ali.

SuzieQ49
04-07-2006, 07:11 PM
ali was in his prime vs liston dont kid urself.


alis prime was 64-67

Dempsey 1919
04-07-2006, 07:26 PM
ali was in his prime vs liston dont kid urself.


alis prime was 64-67

he wasn't as powerful as he was when he fought cleveland williams.

SuzieQ49
04-07-2006, 08:23 PM
ur prime is a span of ur best years, ur prime lasts longer than one fight!

Dempsey 1919
04-07-2006, 09:21 PM
ur prime is a span of ur best years, ur prime lasts longer than one fight!

remember ali's best years were robbed because of 'nam.

RockyMarcianofan00
04-08-2006, 04:35 PM
He might of been out of his prime, however it becomes obvious that Liston and more to the point his style would struggle with Ali in any point in his career, as with buster and mike, frazier and ali.
i may have red this wrong but you make it sound like Ali's style would have frustrated Liston. Correct Ali's style frustrated many but nearly everything i've heard points at the fact that a style like Joe Fraziers and Listons (Swarmer) would have given Ali a very hard fight (ie:Frazier fights) :boxing:

Yaman
04-08-2006, 04:41 PM
i may have red this wrong but you make it sound like Ali's style would have frustrated Liston. Correct Ali's style frustrated many but nearly everything i've heard points at the fact that a style like Joe Fraziers and Listons (Swarmer) would have given Ali a very hard fight (ie:Frazier fights) :boxing:


I think Liston was a diffirent fighter. He was not a swarmer. Ali had trouble with pressure type fighters, like swarmers. Liston did not attack Ali like Frazier.

RockyMarcianofan00
04-08-2006, 04:55 PM
I think Liston was a diffirent fighter. He was not a swarmer. Ali had trouble with pressure type fighters, like swarmers. Liston did not attack Ali like Frazier.
I think Liston was alittle freaked out by Clay's tactics but Liston did show good composure when it came to intimidating Clay (or trying too)