View Full Version : How great...


Dempsey 1919
03-01-2006, 04:14 PM
would muhammad ali have been had he not been layed off from 1967-1970? Also how great would mike tyson be if he listened to rooney and stayed with him?






















































































i believe then without a doubt the two best hw's ever by far would be ali and tyson, in no particular order. :cool:

http://www.photofile.com/Photos/Albums/Ali/Images/Ali05.jpg

http://www.geocities.com/WestHollywood/9172/boxing/xtysult.jpg

supaduck
03-01-2006, 04:23 PM
I agree with most of it, but I don't think Tyson would have been as good as Joe Louis or on par with Ali even had he stayed with Rooney (but he would have won those fights he lost and lasted longer).

the traveler
03-01-2006, 04:26 PM
You know, to tell you the truth, I'm not sure if Mike would have been that much better. Mike's problem was never really the knowledge of tecnique it was the discipline to stick to the technique and the patience to stick to his training. Sure, Rooney would have been there to be in his ear when he was punching wildly, but it's only so much that a guy can say to someone that doesn't have the heart to put in 100 percent a 100 percent of the time.

supaduck
03-01-2006, 04:41 PM
Yeah. A better question would be a motivated Tyson, how well would he do?

Kid Achilles
03-01-2006, 06:02 PM
How great would Dempsey have been if he didn't forsake training for girls and booze once he won the title? How great would Louis be if America never entered WW2 and he wasn't force to stop fighting professionally for a few years? How great would Max Baer be if he actually tried in most of his fights? How great would Rocky Marciano be if he learned how to box sooner than when he was 22 years old?

This is one of the oldest questions in boxing. Ali was not a special case by any means. Many of the great champions had their own "Vietnam War" that prevented them from reaching their full potential.

Dempsey 1919
03-01-2006, 06:10 PM
How great would Dempsey have been if he didn't forsake training for girls and booze once he won the title? How great would Louis be if America never entered WW2 and he wasn't force to stop fighting professionally for a few years? How great would Max Baer be if he actually tried in most of his fights? How great would Rocky Marciano be if he learned how to box sooner than when he was 22 years old?

This is one of the oldest questions in boxing. Ali was not a special case by any means. Many of the great champions had their own "Vietnam War" that prevented them from reaching their full potential.

ok, now dempsey when he fought gibbons was 28, louis was 28 when he went to war, baer not trying is his fault, and marciano was unskilled period. my point is that those guys actually reached their peak, and ali and tyson never did. ali was 25 when he was stripped, and tyson was 24 or something when he went to jail and all that. i'm saying what if they reached their peak, how great they would have been.

Southpaw Stinger
03-01-2006, 07:33 PM
Tyson had his peak and broke down mentally before he went to prison. He couldn't handle any loss or people who refused to be intimidated by him. He couldn't adapt so I don't think there was anything more for Tyson. But at his short lived peak he was very impressive.

RockyMarcianofan00
03-01-2006, 07:46 PM
ok, now dempsey when he fought gibbons was 28, louis was 28 when he went to war, baer not trying is his fault, and marciano was unskilled period. my point is that those guys actually reached their peak, and ali and tyson never did. ali was 25 when he was stripped, and tyson was 24 or something when he went to jail and all that. i'm saying what if they reached their peak, how great they would have been.

well as long as what if

what if Marciano's manager wasn't deciving taking all his money and had actually gotten him a trainer that would have taught him to box. His trainer was good but what he did is take what you knew and mold it to what he thought was good instead of teaching Marciano to be a better boxer, he just taught Marciano how to take a punch, which is good but had he knew how to box he could have been as good as foreman.

if cus stayed alive or he kept with rooney there's little doubht in my mind Tyson would have been undefeated because no boxer he ever faced could have stood up to prime Tyson, not Holyfeild,not Lewis,not douglas,not williams, and especially not mcbride and thats all the people he lost too so, i think prime tyson may have even Ko'd old foreman (though he wouldn't have tried)


:boxing:

Southpaw Stinger
03-01-2006, 07:48 PM
if cus stayed alive

Very selfish of cus to die like that! lol

RockyMarcianofan00
03-01-2006, 07:56 PM
Very selfish of cus to die like that! lol
lol no i was just saying

he was what helped Tyson stay on the right track

smasher
03-01-2006, 09:10 PM
if cus stayed alive or he kept with rooney there's little doubht in my mind Tyson would have been undefeated because no boxer he ever faced could have stood up to prime Tyson, not Holyfeild,not Lewis,not douglas,not williams, and especially not mcbride and thats all the people he lost too so, i think prime tyson may have even Ko'd old foreman (though he wouldn't have tried):boxing:

A trainer can't fight the fights. Tyson's problems stemmed from his inability to handle adversity. EVERY fighter at some time gets floored, cut, hurt, or trails in points. It is the GREAT fighter that overcomes this adversity and triumphs. This is defined as character, heart, and determination.

Charley Goldman didn't KO Ezzard Charles when Marciano's nose was split. Gil Clancy didn't get off the floor twice against Ron Lyle to win by KO. Angelo Dundee didn't rally to KO Tommy Hearns...etc.

People need to understand that Kevin Rooney is not the scapegoat in Tyson's failures. MIKE TYSON himself is the reason and his shortcomings as a fighter and his defeats were from a lack of a champion's psyche.

Kevin Rooney may have kept him more focused in training and kept him truer to his fighting style. However, when it came to the moment of adversity, and every fighter encounters it at sometime, even Kevin Rooney or even Cus D'Amato wouldn't have been able to help him.

RockyMarcianofan00
03-01-2006, 09:16 PM
A trainer can't fight the fights. Tyson's problems stemmed from his inability to handle adversity. EVERY fighter at some time gets floored, cut, hurt, or trails in points. It is the GREAT fighter that overcomes this adversity and triumphs. This is defined as character, heart, and determination.

Charley Goldman didn't KO Ezzard Charles when Marciano's nose was split. Gil Clancy didn't get off the floor twice against Ron Lyle to win by KO. Angelo Dundee didn't rally to KO Tommy Hearns...etc.

People need to understand that Kevin Rooney is not the scapegoat in Tyson's failures. MIKE TYSON himself is the reason and his shortcomings as a fighter and his defeats were from a lack of a champion's psyche.

Kevin Rooney may have kept him more focused in training and kept him truer to his fighting style. However, when it came to the moment of adversity, and every fighter encounters it at sometime, even Kevin Rooney or even Cus D'Amato wouldn't have been able to help him.

Technically the trainers are the ones fighting because its there teachings that go into there ring, maybe not their body's but there teachings in the athletes, so if you teach somebody to throw punches and knee ppl thats what they're going to do most of the time, if a fighter has adifferent trainer sometimes they'd do better sometimes worse

you think tyson would have been as good as he was without cus? no
so even though Cus didn't go in the ring because of him Tyson was beating ppl so..

but in the same respect your right its up to the Fighter to find a different trainer if they dont' like them and the trainers not the on throwing the punches so while i kinda of disagree for the most part your right :boxing:

smasher
03-01-2006, 09:40 PM
the trainers not the on throwing the punches so while i kinda of disagree for the most part your right :boxing:

It's not the throwing of the punches. IT'S GETTING HIT WITH PUNCHES. It's about handling adversity. Tyson folded like a cheap suit when faced with fight or flight.

Fighters enter the ring with a degree of fear. That is natural. It is how they handle and cope with that fear that seperates the hero form the coward.

Tyson is given far too much grace and far too many excuses.

Kid Achilles
03-01-2006, 09:52 PM
One thing you're wrong about RockMarcianofan is that Charlie Goldman was not a good trainer for Marciano. He was the BEST trainer Rocky could have asked for. He did not teach the Rock to take a punch, he taught him the crouch, how to shorten up his punches, fight inside, how to get inside, everything he needed. With his 67" reach there is no way he would have ever been successful as a long range jab and cross fighter.

If Marciano had taken up boxing earlier though, he would have gotten better at his style quicker. More so than almost all other champions, Marciano improved the most from his pro debut to his last fight. Marciano during his pro debut was embarassingly sloppy, had terrible balance, and threw wide ass looping punches. He wasn't even close to a world class fighter and most people thought he had no future in boxing above the club fighter circuit. It's only through sheer will, strength, and an awesome chin that he survived those early fights against better schooled opposition.

Charlie Goldman took the best of what the raw Marciano had to offer and refined it into an all time great fighter, and not boxer. Goldman was the very best person around at the time to be training Marciano and it was a match made in heaven.

Actually Marciano reached his physical peak around the Moore fight IMO (perhaps a bit before), but he still had much to learn when he retired. If he had started fighting when Ali did, at 12, honing his skills and refining his style from such a young age, he would have been an even greater fighter than he was. But unfortunately for boxing history, Marciano did not even have his first boxing lesson until he was in his early twenties. For some reason this is overlooked and ignored but it is quite important for understanding his poor showings (against an old Joe Louis he wasn't even close to his prime, he was very raw even then, and in the time span between the first and second fights with LaStarza, Roland remarked that Marciano had improved 100%, particulary his defense).

If Marciano had Ali's early start, he would have been much harder to hit, sharper and more accurate with his punches, would have had better footwork, and would have been a wiser fighter more adept at cutting off the ring. Anything who thinks otherwise is just a biased fool.

RockyMarcianofan00
03-01-2006, 10:52 PM
One thing you're wrong about RockMarcianofan is that Charlie Goldman was not a good trainer for Marciano. He was the BEST trainer Rocky could have asked for. He did not teach the Rock to take a punch, he taught him the crouch, how to shorten up his punches, fight inside, how to get inside, everything he needed. With his 67" reach there is no way he would have ever been successful as a long range jab and cross fighter.

If Marciano had taken up boxing earlier though, he would have gotten better at his style quicker. More so than almost all other champions, Marciano improved the most from his pro debut to his last fight. Marciano during his pro debut was embarassingly sloppy, had terrible balance, and threw wide ass looping punches. He wasn't even close to a world class fighter and most people thought he had no future in boxing above the club fighter circuit. It's only through sheer will, strength, and an awesome chin that he survived those early fights against better schooled opposition.

Charlie Goldman took the best of what the raw Marciano had to offer and refined it into an all time great fighter, and not boxer. Goldman was the very best person around at the time to be training Marciano and it was a match made in heaven.

Actually Marciano reached his physical peak around the Moore fight IMO (perhaps a bit before), but he still had much to learn when he retired. If he had started fighting when Ali did, at 12, honing his skills and refining his style from such a young age, he would have been an even greater fighter than he was. But unfortunately for boxing history, Marciano did not even have his first boxing lesson until he was in his early twenties. For some reason this is overlooked and ignored but it is quite important for understanding his poor showings (against an old Joe Louis he wasn't even close to his prime, he was very raw even then, and in the time span between the first and second fights with LaStarza, Roland remarked that Marciano had improved 100%, particulary his defense).

If Marciano had Ali's early start, he would have been much harder to hit, sharper and more accurate with his punches, would have had better footwork, and would have been a wiser fighter more adept at cutting off the ring. Anything who thinks otherwise is just a biased fool.

i was kind of getting tyson and rocky mixed up
let me rephrase Charlie Goldman was good trainer and the crouch is probably one of the best defensive styles ever IMO because you can go from defense to offense in an instant but Goldman's achilles heal is that he took the Boxers strength and worked on that instead of really teaching foot work or speed, i mean Rocky had the power and he worked around that which i love because Rocky's pure heart,stamina,power,and relentlessness are great and giving up speed and footwork is a small price to pay, but had Rocky later in his career had perfected the crotch, he could jab and convert quick, but had he had alittle bit better hand speed, and footwork it owuldn't have been bad, he still would've been flat footed most of them time to get his punches acrossed though

my friend once said that if marciano was trained by cus d'mato then Rocky would have been the best hw of all time, and that's actually sounds relatively accurate, but Goldman did do a good job with what he did.

Actually after rocky retired he was going to come back like the next month because the deal he made with his manager was that his manager would get 45% (or something like that but alot) of his earnings, also would be in charge of his (Rockys') money until the day he retired, Rocky saw near none of the money he should have seen. so thats just a little fact lol

but in the end i acutally agree with you near 100% with what you wrote
had he started earlier he would have been unstoppable lol or near it anyway cause no fighter is really unstoppable
K for you or pts what ever i can get first

Dempsey 1919
03-01-2006, 10:53 PM
One thing you're wrong about RockMarcianofan is that Charlie Goldman was not a good trainer for Marciano. He was the BEST trainer Rocky could have asked for. He did not teach the Rock to take a punch, he taught him the crouch, how to shorten up his punches, fight inside, how to get inside, everything he needed. With his 67" reach there is no way he would have ever been successful as a long range jab and cross fighter.

If Marciano had taken up boxing earlier though, he would have gotten better at his style quicker. More so than almost all other champions, Marciano improved the most from his pro debut to his last fight. Marciano during his pro debut was embarassingly sloppy, had terrible balance, and threw wide ass looping punches. He wasn't even close to a world class fighter and most people thought he had no future in boxing above the club fighter circuit. It's only through sheer will, strength, and an awesome chin that he survived those early fights against better schooled opposition.

Charlie Goldman took the best of what the raw Marciano had to offer and refined it into an all time great fighter, and not boxer. Goldman was the very best person around at the time to be training Marciano and it was a match made in heaven.

Actually Marciano reached his physical peak around the Moore fight IMO (perhaps a bit before), but he still had much to learn when he retired. If he had started fighting when Ali did, at 12, honing his skills and refining his style from such a young age, he would have been an even greater fighter than he was. But unfortunately for boxing history, Marciano did not even have his first boxing lesson until he was in his early twenties. For some reason this is overlooked and ignored but it is quite important for understanding his poor showings (against an old Joe Louis he wasn't even close to his prime, he was very raw even then, and in the time span between the first and second fights with LaStarza, Roland remarked that Marciano had improved 100%, particulary his defense).

If Marciano had Ali's early start, he would have been much harder to hit, sharper and more accurate with his punches, would have had better footwork, and would have been a wiser fighter more adept at cutting off the ring. Anything who thinks otherwise is just a biased fool.

yes, this is true, because in clay's first amateur bouts he looked just like marciano! :D

RockyMarcianofan00
03-01-2006, 10:59 PM
yes, this is true, because in clay's first amateur bouts he looked just like marciano! :D
ha ha i can't imagine muhammad ali sitting there toe to toe with someone swapping blows, i mean i only see him dancing and jabbing

Dempsey 1919
03-01-2006, 11:01 PM
ha ha i can't imagine muhammad ali sitting there toe to toe with someone swapping blows, i mean i only see him dancing and jabbing

nah, i meant that he was clumsy and awkward like marciano.

Kid Achilles
03-01-2006, 11:05 PM
I actually don't think D'Amato would have been a good trainer for Marciano. D'Amato as a trainer was nowhere near as experienced as Goldman IMO. He never had a single fight himself as far as I know. It was Rooney that did the real technical instructing. D'Amato (and this was his greatest strength as a trainer) just taught Tyson the fighter mentality and how to deal with fear which Marciano always knew.

RockyMarcianofan00
03-01-2006, 11:08 PM
I actually don't think D'Amato would have been a good trainer for Marciano. D'Amato as a trainer was nowhere near as experienced as Goldman IMO. He never had a single fight himself as far as I know. It was Rooney that did the real technical instructing. D'Amato (and this was his greatest strength as a trainer) just taught Tyson the fighter mentality and how to deal with fear which Marciano always knew.
ahh see you learn something knew everyday

so this is what i'm getting from you
Cus D'mato was Tyson's legal guardian,motivator, and kept him on track, but rooney did the training that made tyson great. in that case Rooney would have been good.

but in a sense i changed my mind a bit, Goldman was probably the best trainer for Marciano if only he had given him a bit more speed cause his defense is actually better then most ppl give him credit for

RockyMarcianofan00
03-01-2006, 11:15 PM
ah you were rite kid achilles i just found this which sort of cements what you said

What quality boxers does this produce, good or bad? Marciano's handler, Charley Goldman, says: "Too many youngsters, when they try to imitate the styles of great champions, forget it might not suit them... When Weill brought Rocky to me I saw he was a powerful puncher, but had short arms. There was no sense in me trying to make a fancy Dan out of him, so I tried to strengthen his good points, and slowly teach him to correct his weaknesses. Kids coming along today look at the great success Rocky has had and figure if they imitate him, they can be champ. They forget Rocky's wealth of natural ability."
Champion Marciano has his own ideas: "They don't box any more because a lot of good hitters have come along. Why waltz 10 rounds with an opponent if you can KO him in one?"

Yogi
03-01-2006, 11:18 PM
yes, this is true, because in clay's first amateur bouts he looked just like marciano! :D

Hey, I've seen a couple of Ali's fights as an amateur, and even when at an advanced stage in those ranks, he didn't look so **** hot...much, much more stationary than he was during his best years as a pro, and believe it or not, watching Ali as an amateur almost looked like his hands were being throwon in slow motion (when compared to his later handspeed).

Kid Achilles
03-01-2006, 11:21 PM
Exactly. And Goldman did give him speed. Marciano could come forward quicker than you'd think, he was actually pretty damn explosive when he lunged in with those punches (which he sometimes had to do to reach his taller rangier opponents). He had strong explosive legs, and it allowed him to lunge in like I said and of course it was the source of those devastating punches. Let's put it this way, if he was so slow, than why didn't guys get out of the way of his punches? We've all seen Marciano clobber Walcott and Charles with flurries of punches and those were all quick, slick guys, who had no interest getting hit by Marciano. The answer is he was quicker and smarter than he's given credit for.

Charlie Goldman was great for Marciano because he knew that Marciano could never win fights using the basic orthodox approach. He viewed his fighter's strengths carefully and developed the perfect style that played on those strengths. It was Goldman who directed Marciano to bang on the arms and shoulders of LaStarza to bring his guard down. Few guys would think of something like that, considering it a waste of stamina to punch on a guy's nonvital areas. Look at what that strategy did to Foreman. But Goldman knew Marciano's strengths, knew that with Marciano's combination of power, stamina, and muscular endurance in his arms, that it was a good sound strategy for the Rock. It worked as we all know, but would Marciano have been successful if not for the intelligence and imagination of Goldman in his corner? I'm not so sure.

Goldman was a severely underrated trainer IMO.

Dempsey 1919
03-01-2006, 11:27 PM
Hey, I've seen a couple of Ali's fights as an amateur, and even when at an advanced stage in those ranks, he didn't look so **** hot...much, much more stationary than he was during his best years as a pro, and believe it or not, watching Ali as an amateur almost looked like his hands were being throwon in slow motion (when compared to his later handspeed).

word, do you think you could upload them for me? :)

Yogi
03-01-2006, 11:29 PM
word, do you think you could upload them for me? :)

Umm...I don't have them on my comp, Butterfly, but I'll check around on a couple of other sites to see if there's anything available from his ammy days.

RockyMarcianofan00
03-01-2006, 11:30 PM
Exactly. And Goldman did give him speed. Marciano could come forward quicker than you'd think, he was actually pretty damn explosive when he lunged in with those punches (which he sometimes had to do to reach his taller rangier opponents). He had strong explosive legs, and it allowed him to lunge in like I said and of course it was the source of those devastating punches. Let's put it this way, if he was so slow, than why didn't guys get out of the way of his punches? We've all seen Marciano clobber Walcott and Charles with flurries of punches and those were all quick, slick guys, who had no interest getting hit by Marciano. The answer is he was quicker and smarter than he's given credit for.

Charlie Goldman was great for Marciano because he knew that Marciano could never win fights using the basic orthodox approach. He viewed his fighter's strengths carefully and developed the perfect style that played on those strengths. It was Goldman who directed Marciano to bang on the arms and shoulders of LaStarza to bring his guard down. Few guys would think of something like that, considering it a waste of stamina to punch on a guy's nonvital areas. Look at what that strategy did to Foreman. But Goldman knew Marciano's strengths, knew that with Marciano's combination of power, stamina, and muscular endurance in his arms, that it was a good sound strategy for the Rock. It worked as we all know, but would Marciano have been successful if not for the intelligence and imagination of Goldman in his corner? I'm not so sure.

Goldman was a severely underrated trainer IMO.


yea i do underrate goldman alot, i hadn't really read a whole lot on him, a little but not much,

I knew marciano was fast coming in and getting out (which helped him dodge punches) but even I can tend to underrate some of Marciano's strength's ppl say i hug his nuts and overrate him but there's alot about him even i don't know so i hardly over rate him :boxing:

Marciano + Goldman one of the most underrated fighter/trainer teams, together as well as seperate

Dempsey 1919
03-01-2006, 11:42 PM
Umm...I don't have them on my comp, Butterfly, but I'll check around on a couple of other sites to see if there's anything available from his ammy days.

thank you from the bottom of my heart. you don't know how much i would reeeeaaaly appreciate that!! ;)

SuzieQ49
03-01-2006, 11:43 PM
great post kid achilles! agreed 100% about goldman.


goldman was perfect for marciano, like blackburn was perfect for louis.

Yogi
03-01-2006, 11:47 PM
thank you from the bottom of my heart. you don't know how much i would reeeeaaaly appreciate that!! ;)

Check your PM's, Butterfly.

smasher
03-01-2006, 11:50 PM
would muhammad ali have been had he not been layed off from 1967-1970? Also how great would mike tyson be if he listened to rooney and stayed with him?

How great would Ali have been without the layoff and he was trained by and listened to Rooney....

Dempsey 1919
04-03-2006, 05:29 PM
How great would Ali have been without the layoff and he was trained by and listened to Rooney....

IMO dundee was better than rooney.

sleazyfellow
04-03-2006, 05:32 PM
IMO not, rooney has accually been in the ring fighting and dundee has not, so rooney understands more about what goes on in there

SuzieQ49
04-03-2006, 05:42 PM
One thing you're wrong about RockMarcianofan is that Charlie Goldman was not a good trainer for Marciano. He was the BEST trainer Rocky could have asked for. He did not teach the Rock to take a punch, he taught him the crouch, how to shorten up his punches, fight inside, how to get inside, everything he needed. With his 67" reach there is no way he would have ever been successful as a long range jab and cross fighter.

If Marciano had taken up boxing earlier though, he would have gotten better at his style quicker. More so than almost all other champions, Marciano improved the most from his pro debut to his last fight. Marciano during his pro debut was embarassingly sloppy, had terrible balance, and threw wide ass looping punches. He wasn't even close to a world class fighter and most people thought he had no future in boxing above the club fighter circuit. It's only through sheer will, strength, and an awesome chin that he survived those early fights against better schooled opposition.

Charlie Goldman took the best of what the raw Marciano had to offer and refined it into an all time great fighter, and not boxer. Goldman was the very best person around at the time to be training Marciano and it was a match made in heaven.

Actually Marciano reached his physical peak around the Moore fight IMO (perhaps a bit before), but he still had much to learn when he retired. If he had started fighting when Ali did, at 12, honing his skills and refining his style from such a young age, he would have been an even greater fighter than he was. But unfortunately for boxing history, Marciano did not even have his first boxing lesson until he was in his early twenties. For some reason this is overlooked and ignored but it is quite important for understanding his poor showings (against an old Joe Louis he wasn't even close to his prime, he was very raw even then, and in the time span between the first and second fights with LaStarza, Roland remarked that Marciano had improved 100%, particulary his defense).

If Marciano had Ali's early start, he would have been much harder to hit, sharper and more accurate with his punches, would have had better footwork, and would have been a wiser fighter more adept at cutting off the ring. Anything who thinks otherwise is just a biased fool.



totally agree on the charley goldman part. he was BY FAR the best trainer for rocky. he turned rocky into a technician in rocky's own way.

smasher
04-03-2006, 06:09 PM
IMO dundee was better than rooney.Come on butterfly you have to know I was kidding. Look at who Dundee trained then look at Rooney's resume. Tyson, uhhhh, Pazienza (after he was already a world ranked fighter) uuuhhhh Tyson, uhhhh did I mention Tyson? D'Amato discovered and trained Tyson in the early years. Rooney was still fighting as a pro. Last I saw of Rooney he was getting starched by Alexis Arguello with one right hand in the second round. Never saw him fight after that.

Rooney hasn't trained **** all from the ground up. He gets elevated to legendary trainer status by the know nothing Tyson Brigade that figure Tyson's downfall must be the result of the loss of Rooney. Name me any great fighters Rooney has trained....yeah I thought so

Dempsey 1919
04-03-2006, 07:02 PM
Come on butterfly you have to know I was kidding. Look at who Dundee trained then look at Rooney's resume. Tyson, uhhhh, Pazienza (after he was already a world ranked fighter) uuuhhhh Tyson, uhhhh did I mention Tyson? D'Amato discovered and trained Tyson in the early years. Rooney was still fighting as a pro. Last I saw of Rooney he was getting starched by Alexis Arguello with one right hand in the second round. Never saw him fight after that.

Rooney hasn't trained **** all from the ground up. He gets elevated to legendary trainer status by the know nothing Tyson Brigade that figure Tyson's downfall must be the result of the loss of Rooney. Name me any great fighters Rooney has trained....yeah I thought so

yeah, that's the truth! i guess i was thinking of cus, not rooney.

Dempsey 1919
03-04-2007, 12:47 AM
bump......