View Full Version : Muhammad Ali was not a great fighter


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Frazier's 15th round
02-28-2006, 03:54 AM
I didn't write this article, so don't get mad at me. But the article is absolutely correct. Ali is a bum.

“Float Like a butterfly, sting like a flea many bums did whip Muhammad Ali.”

Lets review Ali’s record and briefly the career records of his opponents.

Trevor Berbick (50-11-1). Berbick had a decent record but lost practically every time he stepped up in competition. He was starched in one round by Bernardo Mercardo before beating Ali. Berbick was also beaten by less than stellar competition such as S.T. Gordon and Jimmy Thunder, but Ali could not beat him. Berbick made Ali look slow and lethargic. Where some all time greats all had their share of journeyman that they faced, they beat them. Ali lost to a number of journeyman type fighters. At a similar age as Ali in this fight, Ray Robinson who was Ali’s hero was still beating fighters of this caliber. At age 39 Robinson lost a highly disputed draw to Gene Fullmer in a title fight. Ali lacked the greatness to accomplish the same feat. It was a clear victory over the so called “Greatest.” Berbick retired him.

Larry Holmes (69-6) The best fighter Ali ever faced. What happened? At an age where Lennox Lewis was beating Vitaly Klitschko (32-1), Ali was completely outclassed and dominated failing to win a single round while being stopped by a fighter who could do everything he could do better. Did any heavyweight champion ever look so worthless in a title fight as Ali did against Holmes? Joe Louis, who had only 4 fights in the previous 8 years, at least won some rounds and landed some punches against Ezzard Charles and was competitive at a similar age against Rocky Marciano swelling his eye with his jab and made a fight of it. But Ali, who weighed only a single pound more for this fight then he did for Foreman a few years earlier, could not win a single round against Holmes. The NY Times reported, “In 10 rounds, he (Ali) landed fewer than 10 solid punches.” Ali simply did not have the ability to deal with a bigger, stronger, superior technical fighter with a better jab.

It should be noted that Holmes also feasted on a lot of inferior competition. Look at some of the careers of his title defense opponents; Ossie Ocasio (23-13), Mike Weaver (41-18), Lorenzo Zanon (27-6-3 ko’d 5 times in 36 fights), Scott LeDoux (33-13-4), Lucien Rodriguez (39-12-1), and Renaldo Snipes (39-8) nearly knocked Holmes out with one punch. Unlike Joe Louis and Rocky Marciano who defended against seasoned experienced veterans Holmes (and Ali too as well shall see) fought mostly green, inexperienced amateurs that made them look better than they were and sometimes those kids made them look bad! Holmes defended against such callow opposition as Tim Witherspoon (15 fights), Leon Spinks (14 fights), Ossie Ocasio (13 fights), David Bey (14 fights), Bonecrusher Smith (15 fights), Carl Williams (16 fights), and Marvis Frazier who had only 10 pro fights! How such a fighter could be considered great beating a slew of inexperienced amateurs defies intelligent reasoning. Yet this same fighter beat Ali 10-0 in rounds and made him quit on his stool.

Leon Spinks (26-17). The worse heavyweight champion ever. He only won the title because he beat an over-rated Muhammad Ali. This bum Spinks had only 7 pro fights at the time and DIDN’T WIN all of those. Spinks was such a huge underdog that Las Vegas bookies would not give odds on the fight. Yet he gave Ali an ass whipping. He swarmed over him and gave him no room to breathe and won easily proving Ali was not close to “The Greatest.” Ali couldn’t deal with real pressure from a fighter who was not fit to be on Joe Louis “bum of the month club.” Spinks was knocked out 9 times in his career more than either Charles or Walcott and he had half as many fights. He was even knocked out by some guy named John Carlo in one round who was in his pro debut. Yet Ali could not put this hapless china chinned chump down in 30 rounds of fighting in 2 fights?

There is more to the story. Some will no doubt try to say Ali was old, but he had just turned 36 the month before. To get more perspective on the age issue, consider that at 36 years of age, Larry Holmes stopped David Bey (6’3”, 233 lbs), and defeated Carl Williams (6’4”, 215 lbs), in back-to-back fights. (Note this is quoting Revolver and he is error Holmes was born in ‘49 both fights were before his birthday in Nov. of ‘85 so he was 35. Math, along with other subjects such as logic, must not one be of Revolver’s strong points) And just shy of his 38th birthday, Lennox Lewis as mentioned previously, beat Vitaly Klitschko (6’7” 248 lbs) who was the number one rated contender. It was Lewis’ third fight since turning 36. His two previous opponents were Hasim Rahman (236 lbs, 35-2) and Mike Tyson (234 lbs, 49-3). He won both of those fights by knockout. But Ali could not defeat an amateur opponent who weighed less than 200 pounds and had only 7 pro fights and not all of those were wins? Losing to a green kid like Spinks proves how truly over-rated and over-hyped Muhammad Ali is to this day.

Spinks who at 6”1 ˝” and a 76” reach beat Ali with a simple plan. Spinks used aggression, jabs and pressure to force Ali to the corners and outwork him. The NY Times reported, “Ali danced and jabbed, danced and jabbed and took Spinks shots in an apparent effort to let the St. Louisian, who at 197 ˝ pounds was outweighed by 17 pounds, expend his energy.” But it was to no avail against an inferior challenger determined enough to beat him.

Of course people will write the loss off as an old, out-of-shape Ali losing to a young, hungry although completely inexperienced opponent. But an examination of Ali’s career reveals few significant wins, a number of defeats, several close calls where he was almost knocked out, many controversial wins, and alleged fixed fights, as well as a fight where he was completely dominated (not winning a single round) and stopped by a fighter who is considered his inferior to this day by those who are blinded by their infatuation for this over-rated, over-hyped media phenom. However, a clear-eyed, realistic boxing historian sees Ali for the phony that he was.

Before moving on, I must pause and summarize what we have thus far learned: Ali lost three of the three fights discussed so far! He was clearly beaten by Trevor Berbick (a journeyman), completely dominated by Holmes who proved a better technician could not only defeat him, but utterly dominate him Ali failing to win a single round or even land a significant punch in the entire fight, and he was beaten and battered by an amateur with less than 7 pro fights and not all of those wins!

Earnie Shavers (73-14). Shavers was one of the more experienced opponents that Ali fought, but he was a one-dimensional raw slugger with no chin and few if any real boxing skills. He had a padded record of 54-5-1 at the time. He was knocked out 7 times in his career and lost 14 times. He made his reputation by knocking out nothing but tomato cans. He lost to everyone he fought who could box even a little. His losses include such stellar names as Stan Johnson, Ron Stander, Bob Stallings, Walter Santemore, George Chaplin (some relation to Charlie I think), and Brian Yates. He also lost to every good fighter he faced including Jerry Quarry and Ron Lyle. Hell, even the totally skill-less Tex Cobb beat him clearly. Ali proved that he couldn’t break an egg by failing to knock out this glass-jawed winging Neanderthal. Ali was hurt several times in this fight, staggered and rubbery legged but his opponent a one punch at time over-rated shoemaker could not finish the job that a real fighter would.

Alfredo Evangelista (62-13), a typical talent-less European fighter with no skills. This bum twice lost to Lorenzo Zanon (27-9-3 with only 9 ko’s). In fact his last fight was a loss to Zanon. Evangelista coming in to face Ali had never before been beyond 8 rounds. The NY Times reported that Evangelista looked “soft” at the weigh in and didn’t look like a real fighter. ONCE AGAIN we see that Ali prefers to defend his title against unproven inexperienced opposition or talentless one-dimensional punchers rather than boxers of any real skill who always troubled him.

Evangelista lost to every notable heavyweight he fought. He was knocked out by none other than amateur Leon Spinks in only 5 rounds and was also starched in 2 by Ali imitator Greg Page. Anders Eklund (19-5) also knocked him out. This worthless pile of crap made Ali look like a fool. Although Ali clearly won the Times wrote that Ali “did not look sharp” in this fight.

Frazier's 15th round
02-28-2006, 03:56 AM
Why isn’t Ali criticized for making such fights? Why is the large number of title defenses in the record book not problematized in such a manner as to raise concerns about Ali’s practice of holding up blatantly unqualified journeymen as legitimate contenders for the crown? It’s not just about the numbers. It’s about the quality of opposition. And we will see many more faces like Evangelista’s.

Ken Norton (42-7). Norton was never as good as his reputation. He was in fact “chinny” being knocked out by every big puncher he faced including Jose Luis Garcia, George Foreman, Shavers, and Gerry Cooney. He was even down twice against Scott LeDoux who was not a big puncher. He should have lost that fight but was given a gift draw. Norton ducked Frazier and Lyle because he knew what the result would be. The films prove that Norton won 2 of 3 fights against Ali. Norton broke the big-mouthed Ali’s jaw in the first fight and embarrassed him. He also won the third fight. Everyone knows Norton was robbed in this fight except the hardcore Ali worshippers who think he was a god. Norton was slow-footed, even dragged his rear foot yet he had no trouble hitting Ali, cutting the ring and driving him to the ropes. He even out-jabbed Ali most of the time because he knew how to block a jab and counter-jab while Ali never in his entire career learned to block a jab. Ali in three fights never understood that it was the jab of Norton that gave him so much trouble. Norton was a better boxer than Ali and realistically beat him 2 of 3 times. Norton’s reputation has been enhanced because he did beat the overrated Ali (and of course, out of the need to build up the legend of another overrated heavyweight named Larry Holmes).

Richard Dunn (33-12). How did this guy get a title shot? He was knocked out 9 times in his career. His chin was so bad that even a powder puff puncher like Ali was able to floor him 5 times. Of course Ali had to knock him down that many times because he didn’t have a real shock punch. Nobodies such as Danny McAlinden (in his pro debut), George Dulaire (8-18-4), Rocky Campbell (18-11-1) as well as Joe Bugner all had first round knockouts over Dunn. Ali definitely was not as good a puncher as those guys. The results speak for themselves.

Jimmy Young (33-14). His record isn’t much better than Dunn’s looking at the numbers. At the time Young had only 17 wins as well as 4 defeats and a couple of draws. Young was such an inexperienced opponent the common question of the day was “Who is Jimmy Young?” Young was a 15-1 underdog in this fight.

Young actually beat Muhammad Ali. Everyone knows this. This fight really exposed Ali. This fight proved that Ali did not know how to fight as an aggressor. This was the first time in his career Ali actually fought a boxer with some decent defensive skills and wasn’t just a puncher who came to him. So what happened? Ali did not know how to cut the ring on an evasive opponent and was never able to track him down. Ali simply followed him around the ring and got outworked and out hustled. What Ali really needed in this fight was body punching. Something he did not know how to do. The result was embarrassing, humiliating. Ali never looked so clueless on what to do in any fight. Young won that fight. No one who saw it live or who watches the film can say any different. It was an out and out robbery and Young was in utter shock and disbelief at the decision. So was the audience. The NY Times reported that the decision was “loudly booed by most of the 12, 472 spectators attending the home televised bout at the Capitol Center.” The NY Times scored the bout for Young. The Young fiasco is another loss by Ali to an inexperienced boxer who had semblance of boxing skill.

As we will see, Ali’s reputation is indeed mythic, and this construction is in fact just one of numerous reconstructions, as Ali’s penchant for disappointing fans and experts – expressed loudly in boos, jeers, and bad reviews –(as in the Young and Norton fights) had to be continually glossed over in order to manufacture an enduring myth of greatness. Indeed, Ali only appears to us in history as a legend because of the manner in which his legacy has been constructed by certain sportswriters who see their job as manufacturing fables for whom they must believe are the ignorant masses rather than accurately reporting history.

Jean Pierre Coopman (36-16). The worst heavyweight title challenger of all time, a fighter who had all of his pro fights in Belgium when he was granted a shot at Ali’s title -undeservedly so. He was knocked out by Ireno Werleman (4-16-1) before facing Ali. He lost to every journeyman he faced. Fighters such as Coopman made Ali look great. The reality is he only looked great because Coopman was a fourth-rate boxer of shoddy skills, and no chin, who beat nobody.

Joe Frazier (32-4). The best all around fighter Ali faced, but the reality is Ali never convincingly beat him. That’s right. You heard correctly. Frazier clearly won the first fight and gave Ali the worse thumping of his career. Frazier had Ali down and almost out in the 11th (the knockdown was ruled a slip) and down on his back in the 15th. Ali’s trainer Angelo Dundee even admitted that only the fact that Ali landed on the seat of his pants woke him up. As decisive a victory as any heavyweight champion has scored over another. The simple fact is in the biggest political fight of his career Joe Louis annihilated his opponent. Ali lost the biggest fight of his career. Frazier also deserved the decision in the second fight. The New York Times' Red Smith and Dave Anderson both thought Frazier had won. Frazier was mugged and robbed by Ali in that fight. The judges gave Ali a gift in this fight because they wanted to match Ali and Foreman for a big money fight for the title. The third fight was a robbery too. If Eddie Futch would have just let Frazier stand up between the 14th and 15th rounds Ali would have quit like he did against Holmes. He collapsed right afterwards. Sports Illustrated reported that he was actually ready to quit after the 10th round against Frazier. He took such a terrible beating he said it was “the closest thing to death” that he ever experienced. Ali’s Parkinson’s was caused by Frazier’s punches. This is not too difficult to see. Frazier is really 3-0 against Ali and “Smokin” Joe believes that in his heart.

But there is more to the story. Ali’s fight with Frazier also demonstrated Ali’s vulnerability to left hooks. Throughout his career Ali never learned to block a left hook. This is particularly evident in his fights with Frazier. Ali knew that Frazier was going to throw the left hook and he never did learn to block it! The left hook is the easiest punch to learn to block in boxing. But Ali did not learn how to do it in three fights with Frazier despite the fact that he knew it was coming every time. This shows that Ali’s ability to adapt and learn is vastly overrated. He could not learn the most basic of boxing skills.


Joe Bugner (69-13). Bugner could box a little, punch a little but did neither particularly well. Bugner’s career record was that of an erratic journeyman beating third raters such as Manuel Ramos, Chuck Wepner, Henry Cooper, Brian London and Ali’s sparring partner Jimmy Ellis but losing to Dick Hall, Jack Bodell, Larry Middleton, Ron Lyle and even amateur Marvis Frazier. Bugner was not an inexperienced amateur like Spinks and Young who beat Ali, nor was he a one-dimensional slugger like Lyle and Shavers, he was simply a journeyman who twice went the distance with Ali.

Ron Lyle (43-7-1). Lyle, perhaps a bit like Max Baer, was a big strong puncher but a crude boxer. Jimmy Young, a smallish heavyweight who had only 13 wins in their first meeting, twice outboxed him. A loss to Young was Lyle’s last fight before meeting Ali. One can now see why Ali took the Lyle fight, once he realized the dangerous hitter lacked boxing skills he figured he would be no problem for an experienced fighter such as himself and he was right. Anybody with some skill could beat Lyle. He was outboxed by the smaller Jerry Quarry and besides losses to Ali and Foreman was knocked out by Lynn Ball who had only 14 pro fights. Gerry Cooney also dusted him in one round. Beating a fighter like Lyle was a rather hallow victory because of his lack of real boxing skills. The fact remains as to why Lyle was granted a title fight off a loss? Only because he looked so raw and was so easily outclassed by a journeyman boxer that it was figured to be another easy opponent for Ali. Why do men of logical reasoning fail to see how carefully handpicked Ali’s opponents were? Where is the criticism? Worshippers cannot see through the glitz and the myth. But a wise, clear-eyed historian can.

Chuck Wepner (35-14). Is one beginning to see a pattern here? Most of these guys Ali beat had a lot of losses. They were stiffs. Wepner had no boxing skills. He was a bowery bum plain and simple. He was stopped in 6 rounds by brittle chinned Duane Bobick four fights after going to the 15th round with Ali. Before fighting Ali he was stopped by Buster Mathis, Jerry “Tomato Can” Tomesetti, a young wild George Foreman, an old decrepit Sonny Liston, Joe Bugner, and Jerry Judge. He also had point’s losses to Bob Stallings (6-5), Jose Roman (20-5-1), and Randy Neumann (career record 31-7). That a longshoreman like Wepner could knock Ali down and make it to the 15th round with a quality heavyweight champion defies belief.

Frazier's 15th round
02-28-2006, 03:58 AM
George Foreman had a grossly padded career record of 76-5. He was a wild, swinging amateurish caveman if ever there was one. George, his feet stuck in the mud, struggled with every clever boxer he faced. He made his career by beating up on nobodies. George opposition was so bad on the way to the title he didn’t fight any has-beens, just never was’s. Just look at some of these opponent’s. Roberto Davila (16-15) barely broke .500. He went the distance with Foreman. Levi Forte (19-21-2) also went the distance with George. Gregario Peralta, who weighed less than 200 pounds, gave George fits in two fights. The only significant fighters he beat were a fat, out of shape Joe Frazier and a glass jawed Ken Norton, who as previously noted lost to every puncher he faced. Foreman was also outboxed in his career by journeyman such as Jimmy Young, Tommy Morrison, Shannon Briggs and Axel Schulz; the latter was robbed of the decision.

Ali won this fight because he cheated by using loose ropes. Have you ever watched this fight on film? It’s ridiculous how loose those ropes were. Ali was able to pull back so far on the ropes it’s laughable. The ropes were fixed by Ali’s trainer Angelo Dundee and this is well known. Foreman, a slow handed, one-dimensional puncher with no stamina at all was easily beaten because Ali was able to survive the early rounds because of those loose ropes. Foreman, a free-swinging amateur, virtually collapsed from exhaustion in the 8th round. Ali could have pushed him over and he wouldn’t have got up he was so tired. Those are the facts. Foreman did not have the energy to fight past 5 rounds. To think he could last 25 rounds with a real tough fighter like Jim Jeffries gives me the shivers.

Ruddi Lubbers (29-8) was knocked out in early rounds by such household names as Domencio Adinolfi, Mike Shutte, Gordon Racette as well as Alfredo Evangelista. He is one of the worst fighters Ali ever fought and looks pathetic on film. But somehow he manages to go the distance with Ali over 12 rounds. A fighter like Lubbers would have been lucky to survive 2 minutes with Joe Louis.

Bob Foster (56-8). Not much to say here other than he was a light-heavyweight who lost to every single heavyweight he faced. Billy Conn and Archie Moore at least defeated some heavyweights.

Floyd Patterson (55-8). One of the few fighters that Ali faced who actually had good boxing skills and a good record. But there is more to the story. For as talented as Patterson was, he had not faced much real heavyweight competition. Indeed, he had faced only journeymen and light heavyweights in defense of his heavyweight title. Patterson ducked Sonny Liston and other top heavyweights for years when he held the title. Patterson spent most of his career ducking the top fighters off his time never facing Cleveland Williams, Nino Valdez and Ernie Terrell. He won the vacant title by beating 43-year-old light heavyweight champion Archie Moore. His title defenses were against guys like Tommy Hurricane Jackson (career mark 34-9-1). Jackson had been knocked out in two rounds by Valdez, a fighter Patterson avoided. Yet Patterson struggled against Jackson in their first fight winning a narrow split decision. He won the second fight by Tko but Jackson was hardly a worthy title contender as his record demonstrates. Another one of his title defenses was against Pete Rademacher who was in his pro debut. Roy Harris was undefeated at the time, but also unproven. He finished with a career mark of 31-5 and scored only 9 knockouts in his career and was hardly a worthy title threat. Another title defense was against glass jawed Brian London (more on him later). Tom McNeeley, the father of Peter McNeeely, was another inexperienced foe sent to the slaughter. Tom finished with a career record of 37-14. The first time Patterson met a heavyweight who could punch he was annihilated by Ingemar Johannson and then again by Liston twice. Joey Maxim a light-heavyweight managed to outbox him. He was also outboxed by Ali’s chief sparring partner Jimmy Ellis. It’s not surprising then that Ali could. However beating the overly protected and fragile Patterson hardly makes Ali great. Patterson weighed in the 180’s and had a very weak chin. Despite being so protected he still managed to be dropped 16 times in his career and was stopped 5 times.

Jerry Quarry (53-9-4). Quarry started bleeding during the national anthem because he was so prone to cuts. He was doing well with Ali in the first fight before he received a nasty gash over his eye. Ali had the best fight of his career in the second Quarry fight. But beating Quarry is not that significant after all he was stopped in 7 rounds by George Chuvalo who was a nothing puncher as well as by Joe Frazier and Ken Norton, the latter was not known as a huge puncher either. Quarry was down twice against Memphis Al Jones before coming back to win. Yet Ali could not put him down in two fights. Joe Frazier also beat him more convincingly than did Ali in either fight.

Quarry lost to Jimmy Ellis, and Eddie Machen both solid if uninspiring boxers. He had a draw and a narrow win over an over the hill Floyd Patterson. Quarry had two draws with Tony Alongi who never beat anyone of significance despite his career mark of (40-2-4). He also drew with Tony Doyle (40-16). With a spotty record like this it’s easy to see that Quarry was just another over-rated white hope who lacked both durability and true boxing skills.

Jurgen Blin (31-11-6) One of Ali’s typical career opponents. Not as good as journeyman such as Joe Bugner or Jimmy Young as Blin lost or drew almost a third of his fights. He was knocked out in 2 of his next 5 fights after going the distance with Muhammad Ali. Ali, as usual, did not have the punch to knock out ham and eggers that other heavyweights toppled with no problem.

Jimmy Ellis (40-12-1) Another fighter with a shotty record. Ellis weighed only 189 pounds for his fight with Ali. He was outweighed by over 31 pounds and it still took Ali until the 12th round to squeak out a last minute knockout.

Oscar Bonavena (58-9) had a reach of only 73 ˝” Bonavena his stubby little arms was scarcely more than a journeyman who lost every time he stepped up in competition. He lost twice to Joe Frazier, and lost to Zora Folley, Jimmy Ellis, Floyd Patterson and Ron Lyle among others. He never won a fight against a highly rated top contender. Ali struggled and was in poor form against Bonavena until finally catching him and knocking him out in the 15th round. But this not before much of the audience decided to head to the exits early so bored were they with the lack of action in the ring. It is lackluster victories such as these over journeyman and stumblebums, where Ali struggled that prove Ali’s record is a manufactured media myth.

Zora Folley (79-11-6) Folley was a former light-heavyweight once weighing as low as 178 pounds for a professional fight. He had lost 7 times before coming into this fight with Ali, 6 times by knockout. One of those losses was to Alejandro Lavorante (career record 19-5), who only had 13 pro fights at that time. Folley would only win half of his next 10 fights after losing to Ali before retiring. Why are the great majority of Ali’s opponents of this inferior quality? Why is this not talked about more? This was a title defense for the heavyweight championship of the world. Folley was not a fit title challenger. Ali feasted on journeyman such as this for most of his career.

Ernie Terrell (45-9). Another highly over-rated opponent of Ali. Who did he beat that was any good? Look at the career records of some of his opponents; Tunney Hunsaker (15-15) failed to break the .500 mark, Amos Lincoln (39-13-3) was hardly inspiring. Herb Siler was 15-12 this was Terrell’s 26th pro fight and he was still fighting bums. He won a split decision over Cleveland Williams but was also knocked out by Williams. His only significant victories were decisions over Eddie Machen (50-11-3), George Chuvalo (73-18-2), and Doug Jones (30-10-1) none who were much better than journeymen themselves, except for Machen who was marginally better. But the Machen that lost to Terrell was on his downswing in his last 2 years of fighting. So we can see that Terrell really beat no one special in his career.

But there is more to the story. Terrell managed to lose to a number of journeymen and even fourth rate shoemakers in his career. He lost not once but twice to Johnny Gray a 190 pounder with a career mark of 16-10-1. He was beaten by Wayne Bethea (28-18-4). He also lost to Thad Spencer (32-13-1) and Manuel Ramos (25-29-3) had a losing mark for his career. These fourth-raters beat Terrell as easily as had Muhammad Ali who failed to score a knockdown or stop this big bum. Terrell was also beaten by none other than the hapless Chuck Wepner and stopped in the first round by Jeff Merritt. Ali’s win over Terrell hardly makes him great. Once again we see that beating so called contenders whose ability is far below that of their reputations is what forges the Ali legend.

Cleveland Williams (78-13-1). Williams was a big, strong, powerful puncher at one time, but alas not when Ali fought him as he had a bullet inside of him as a victim in a shooting incident. Williams was physically not the fighter he had been a few years previous and was given a title opportunity as retirement pay. The win over Williams was simply not the real Cleve and is therefore insignificant in making a case for Ali as being a great fighter off this win.

Frazier's 15th round
02-28-2006, 03:59 AM
Karl Mildenberger (56-6-3). Before facing Ali the German had previously been knocked out in seven rounds by Helmut Ball for the German light-heavyweight title, and in one round by Dick Richardson for the European heavyweight title. Despite his lack of boxing ability and his rather fragile china chin he went into the 12th round against the light-hitting Ali. This is so typical; a fighter who would not last 3 rounds with Joe Louis extends Ali and makes him look bad. Ali struggled to finish his opponent in this fight. Mildenberger had his moments as in the 4th round when he landed two jolting lefts to the liver and launched a two fisted attack that drove Ali to the ropes. Ali won clearly but it took him far too long to accomplish the task against a raw fighter of this low quality. Ali could not knock him out quicker than a light-heavyweight could! This fight demonstrates clearly what an abysmal puncher and finisher that Ali really was.

At 6’0” and 201 lbs, Brian London was barely a full sized heavyweight. He was, however, not a legitimate contender. His record was 35-13 at the time he faced Ali. He finished with a journeyman’s record of 37-20-1. London was knocked out 11 times in his career. Every decent fighter he met in the ring stopped him. He was even decisioned by light-heavyweight Willie Pastrano. There’s not much more one can say about London. He was the typical Ali opponent. Another bum, ho hum.

How good was Henry Cooper ? He has been elevated because of his performance against Ali in their first fight. In truth, he was never a good fighter. He was 27-8-1 when Ali first faced him, and he had been knocked out or stopped five times. One of those knockout losses was to Peter Bates whose career mark was 31-15-4; another was to Uber Bacilieri who achieved an abysmal 23-20-3 record. Clearly a fighter who lost to bums such as these can hardly be classified as even a second rate fighter.

Henry Cooper is remember for one reason he nearly knocked out Muhammad Ali in their first fight with a single left hook to the jaw. The NY Times reported that the punch, “caught Clay on the side of the jaw and Cassius went over backwards through the ropes. He rolled back into the ring, then got dazedly to his feet. He was gazing off in the distance…starry-eyed. He wobbled forward gloves low. He started to fall but his handlers caught him.”

But there is more to the story. Seeing that Clay/Ali was out in the corner they used smelling salts to revive him. Then they cheated in order to illegally give their fighter more than the legal one minute rest. The rules state that if a fighter cannot answer the bell in the allotted one minute rest period he is deemed the loser by technical knockout. Dundee took his finger and ripped a tear into Ali’s glove. Angelo Dundee has told this story many times. Since there were no extra gloves in the corner Ali was given up to five minutes of rest time to recover from the knockout that he actually suffered against a third tier heavyweight. Given enough time he was able to recover and came back to win not by kayo but by a nasty cut.

But that is not all that can be said about Ali’s fights with Cooper. Even in the second fight Cooper showed that a third tier heavyweight who was slow of hand and foot could hit Ali with jabs without trouble. Because he never learned how to block a jab he was always vulnerable against any fighter with any semblance of boxing skill and not the bums, third tier heavyweights and raw, wild amateur sluggers that he preferred to fight.

CONCLUSIONS

Consider the fights in which Ali was badly beaten or nearly beaten. Truth be told he lost 2 out of 3 to Ken Norton, and his only real win was razor thin. He was beaten soundly and made to look foolish by Jimmy Young who exposed his lack of real boxing skills. He had the **** beat out of him (literally) 3 times by Joe Frazier (a boxer who knew how to slip Ali’s jab and get inside). He was dominated by Larry Holmes, Ali not winning a single round or landing one significant punch in the entire fight. He was even bested by one of the rawest amateurs he faced in Leon Spinks, a fighter who had only 7 pro fights and not all of those victories. And truthfully he knocked out by Henry Cooper, a third tier bum who never beat a significant heavyweight in his career. He was knocked down by Chuck Wepner, who was not much more than a bar room brawler.

Frazier's 15th round
02-28-2006, 03:59 AM
An objective clear eyed look at Ali’s record and that of his opponents proves beyond a doubt that Ali was not a great fighter and has been vastly overrated by the media hyping machine who needed to build Ali into something he wasn’t at a time when the sport lacked a visible star. That is the truth.

There is only one more fighter on Ali’s record worth mentioning and that is the one that made his reputation, Sonny Liston (50-4). Liston was a great fighter who could box and punch. The problem with basing Ali’s asserted greatness on his fights with Liston is that they were both fixed.

Liston was owned by the mob this is a well known and established fact. Charles Farrell, wrote,

http://www.boxingranks.com/Articles/Article646.htm

“After the second Patterson fight, there were no viable opponents for Liston. Aside from Ali, he had thoroughly destroyed every possible title aspirant. No one thought he could be beaten and, more importantly, no one was willing to pay to see him beat up anyone else.

Sonny was getting old…and he had no great love for fighting. It didn’t make economic sense to have him fight an endless series of low paying title defenses for another ten years. The guys who controlled his career decided that it was better to make two huge, quick scores.

They fixed the fight in Miami. Ali never knew about it. Liston’s people bet huge amounts, getting almost eight to one odds, on Ali. Because the conclusion of the first fight was so ambiguous, Liston remained a betting favorite—at about seven to five—in the rematch. The wiseguys got to clean up twice with the same play. It’s clear that, in the second fight, Ali spotted what was going on the moment Liston went down from a non-punch. But Ali was a very quick study, and made his press release adjustments by the time he was out of the ring.”

This historical journey has erased whatever remaining myths I still harbored about Muhammad Ali. I recognize that he is historically important that he revitalized boxing at a time when it was in the depths of despair. He brought in the big money purses that fighters have today and we should thank him for it. But he was jeered and criticized at the time for all his terrible performances such as those against Doug Jones, Henry Cooper, Karl Mildenberger, Ruddi Lubbers, Chuck Wepner, Jimmy Young and Leon Spinks among others. Reading through the articles you see repeated how the myth is being shattered, how the idol is being toppled from his pedestal. Nat Fleischer, founder of Ring Magazine, who saw every heavyweight champion ringside from Jeffries to Ali, refused to rate him in his top 10 all time heavyweights. It should now be clear even to the most ardent Ali worshipper as to the reasons why.

Muhammad Ali was not a great fighter. He was fundamentally unsound and a flawed fighter. He won the title on a fixed fight, he was rescued from a knockout through cheating against Cooper, he fought nothing but bums and third stringers and some of those actually beat him in the ring. The only decent fighters he fought Joe Frazier and Ken Norton both beat him 2 of 3 times in the ring, while Larry Holmes thoroughly dominated him. He went 1-1 with amateur Leon Spinks who had fewer than 8 pro fights. No other fighter who was called great had such a dismal record.

And this truth needs to be repeated until people clear their heads of the Ali fable. The very idea that he could beat a fighter like Joe Louis is ludicrous. One can only make such a ridiculous claim because they are ignorant of the facts. If Henry Cooper could knock out Ali in four rounds Joe Louis would do it in one. If Leon Spinks could beat Ali imagine what Rocky Marciano would do. Muhammad Ali lost in the ring to Jimmy Young because he had only a semblance of defensive skill. Imagine what Jersey Joe Walcott and Jack Johnson would do to him. They would embarrass him.

Heckler
02-28-2006, 05:14 AM
Why would you even post something so slanted and ridiculous. This is the most biased load of **** i have read. Every single one of Ali's major victories fell under such circumstances that we shouldn't give him credit? You dont like Ali, fine... but dont post ridiculous slanted **** like this to get at Ali, formulate your own ideas.

The above writer is obviously an uninformed ignoramus, there is a reason almost every reputable boxing historian has Ali in their top fives and in most cases their top 2... boxing historians whom dedicate alot of their lives to analyzing fights with a fine tooth comb. Unlike this moron author.

If Henry Cooper could knock out Ali in four rounds Joe Louis would do it in one. If Leon Spinks could beat Ali imagine what Rocky Marciano would do.

Now why would you even post this after reading one of MANY errors and uninformed crap in this article. Henry cooper could drop a young, naieve, cassius clay in 1962. Ali was beaten as a relative old man with parkinsons by a younger contended far beyond his prime in 1978. He beat Frazier twice and any reputable historian has noted this.

"Frazier also deserved the decision in the second fight. The New York Times' Red Smith and Dave Anderson both thought Frazier had won. Frazier was mugged and robbed by Ali in that fight. The judges gave Ali a gift in this fight because they wanted to match Ali and Foreman for a big money fight for the title. The third fight was a robbery too. If Eddie Futch would have just let Frazier stand up between the 14th and 15th rounds Ali would have quit like he did against Holmes. He collapsed right afterwards. Sports Illustrated reported that he was actually ready to quit after the 10th round against Frazier. He took such a terrible beating he said it was “the closest thing to death” that he ever experienced. Ali’s Parkinson’s was caused by Frazier’s punches. This is not too difficult to see. Frazier is really 3-0 against Ali and “Smokin” Joe believes that in his heart."

Red Smith and David anderson? who the **** are they? what about reputable historians, guys LIKE COX from cox's corner and others that think Ali won quite clearly. Ali won the second fight, a careful analysis results in this conclusion. The third fight Ali wouldn't quit, he was leading on points easily and had just shown great activity in round 14. He contemplated quitting in round 10, if anyone thinks a man with such an ego and will to win was going to give up when only 3 minutes were remaining in the ring against a battered, blind Frazier who couldn't land a decent punch to save his life at that stage... they are delusional. 'Quit like he did against holmes' Ali didn't quit, Angelo dundee wouldn't let him come out of his corner. Again an example of Ali not quitting when he should have, good reason to believe he wouldn't of in manila. Why he even brings Holmes into his debate is beyond me, is an old ali with parkinsons really relevant. But his justification is 'Lewis could at such an age _____). He doesn't take into account the condition of the fighters body, the nature of their career before that point. and the fact that fighters age differently. Ali was far beyond his prime not just because of his age, but because he absorbed some of the most devestating punishment in boxing history, he went through years of inactivity, developed parkinsons and was a BOXER with a style that was reliant on reflexes and speed. Logically when comparing a boxer we would take into account their respective primes?
No because this guy is a slanted moron, nothing wrong with suggesting Ali wasn't the greatest... but suggesting he wasn't a GREAT is simply ridiculous.

His comment about wepner was incorrect. Wepner dropped him legitimately? right because the man with the most conditioned body in boxing history that absorbed punishment from Frazier and Foreman was dropped by a mediocre Wepner. In the words of Wepner from ALI:THROUGH THE EYES OF THE WORLD DVD 'I hit him with a poor punch, he was offbalance, when he got up he looked pissed'

Just another of the various errors and illogical crap, I dont have time to explain them all

This article is article is absolute ****, and your a ****en retard for agreeing with it. When you say ALI IS A BUM, you loose whatever credibility you had. Anyone would think this author is TOMMYHEARNS.

Fearless
02-28-2006, 06:49 AM
All I can say is... what's written down in the history books are actual eye witness accounts, you can't deny it. He held many title fights (I believe 7 in one year?)...

hellfire508
02-28-2006, 07:09 AM
Why even respond to this rubbish? That is absolutely hilarious, and the fact that you agree with it "Frazier's 15th Round" is a disgrace. By the way, why is your name that? You do realise Frazier would have probably been killed in that round, right?

hellfire508
02-28-2006, 07:13 AM
LMAO!

Read the conclusion:

"Consider the fights in which Ali was badly beaten or nearly beaten. Truth be told he lost 2 out of 3 to Ken Norton, and his only real win was razor thin. He was beaten soundly and made to look foolish by Jimmy Young who exposed his lack of real boxing skills. He had the **** beat out of him (literally) 3 times by Joe Frazier (a boxer who knew how to slip Ali’s jab and get inside). He was dominated by Larry Holmes, Ali not winning a single round or landing one significant punch in the entire fight. He was even bested by one of the rawest amateurs he faced in Leon Spinks, a fighter who had only 7 pro fights and not all of those victories. And truthfully he knocked out by Henry Cooper, a third tier bum who never beat a significant heavyweight in his career. He was knocked down by Chuck Wepner, who was not much more than a bar room brawler."

Classic!

Can you send me the link to this article? I want to contact the author.

Heckler
02-28-2006, 07:14 AM
The punishment Frazier took in that fight is often disregarded. It was huge, in round 14 he took a beating and failed to answer it, his knees buckled throughout that fight. After round 14 futch did the right thing stopping the fight, in round 15 he would of been completely defenseless for 3 minutes. Alot of damage can be inflicted in that timeframe.

Boxclever
02-28-2006, 07:15 AM
This is obviously a joke.

and a sick one at that. :mad:

Heckler
02-28-2006, 07:15 AM
Hellfire i accidentally gave you bad karma... ignore it, ill give it back to you soon.

Frazier's 15th round
02-28-2006, 08:52 AM
By the way, why is your name that? You do realise Frazier would have probably been killed in that round, right?

What, you mean this 15th round?

http://hofboxingautographs.com/images/products/SSG-JF-30Hmed.jpg

This article is absolute ****, and your a ****en retard for agreeing with it. When you say ALI IS A BUM, you loose whatever credibility you had. Anyone would think this author is TOMMYHEARNS.

The article is all factual. Only Ali nuthuggers like yourself don't believe it. Ali had a padded record, it's well known. The good fighters he fought made him look bad, and he was often given gift decisions simply because he was a loudmouth.

smasher
02-28-2006, 09:10 AM
YOU GUYS ARE COMPLETE ****ING MORONS. THAT ARTICLE WAS WRITTEN AS A JOKE BY BOXING HISTORIAN MONTE COX WHO WROTE UNDER THE NAME OF MONTROSE ON ANOTHER BOXING WEBSITE FORUM. HE DID IT AS AN EXAMPLE HOW FANS OFTEN LOOK AT THE NEGATIVES OF A FIGHTER WHILE COMPLETELY IGNORING THE POSITIVES. IT WAS DONE AS A COMEBACK TO A POSTER CALLED REVOLVER WHO HAD WRITTEN A SIMILAR BREAKDOWN OF JOE LOUIS HIGH LIGHTING ALL THE NEGATIVES OF JOE'S OPPOSITION. COX DID IT AS A JOKE AND UNFORTUNATELY THOSE WITH IQ'S IN THE DOUBLE DIGITS FELL FOR IT.

smasher
02-28-2006, 09:37 AM
Frazier also deserved the decision in the second fight. The New York Times' Red Smith and Dave Anderson both thought Frazier had won. Red Smith and David anderson? who the **** are they?

Red Smith and David Anderson were two 'old boys' sports writers who loved Joe Louis and hated Ali for his anti-war stance. After Frazier- Ali I Smith wrote that if Frazier fought Ali a dozen times Frazier would win each time and every fight would get easier and easier. With that in mind it's obvious his viewing of Ali-Frazier II was completely biased. When Ali lost to Norton, Smith used his column to state how Ali couldn't handle pressure fighters and went on to say Louis would have beaten Ali. He was obsessed with Louis being better than Ali and was biased in his writing when covering Ali's fights. I guess he felt by denigrating Ali it would somehow elevate his favourite fighter. An all too common practice used on these ridiculous threads

Yaman
02-28-2006, 10:24 AM
YOU GUYS ARE COMPLETE ****ING MORONS. THAT ARTICLE WAS WRITTEN AS A JOKE BY BOXING HISTORIAN MONTE COX WHO WROTE UNDER THE NAME OF MONTROSE ON ANOTHER BOXING WEBSITE FORUM. HE DID IT AS AN EXAMPLE HOW FANS OFTEN LOOK AT THE NEGATIVES OF A FIGHTER WHILE COMPLETELY IGNORING THE POSITIVES. IT WAS DONE AS A COMEBACK TO A POSTER CALLED REVOLVER WHO HAD WRITTEN A SIMILAR BREAKDOWN OF JOE LOUIS HIGH LIGHTING ALL THE NEGATIVES OF JOE'S OPPOSITION. COX DID IT AS A JOKE AND UNFORTUNATELY THOSE WITH IQ'S IN THE DOUBLE DIGITS FELL FOR IT.

How are people supposed to know that you imbecile.

smasher
02-28-2006, 10:28 AM
How are people supposed to know that you imbecile.

Exactly, the biggest moron on this forum is the first one to speak up. Thanks for proving my point.

No one is supposed to know Cox wrote it, but the comlete absence of anything positive regarding Ali or his opponent's would be a pretty good indication.

Yaman
02-28-2006, 10:35 AM
Exactly, the biggest moron on this forum is the first one to speak up. Thanks for proving my point.

No one is supposed to know Cox wrote it, but the comlete absence of anything positive regarding Ali or his opponent's would be a pretty good indication.


There was no link, no nothing. It was just pasted in a thread. So before you call people complete ****ing morons, you should go look in the mirror, smasher. Besides, i knew it was fake.

smasher
02-28-2006, 11:00 AM
There was no link, no nothing. It was just pasted in a thread. Besides, i knew it was fake.

Thou doth protest too much.

Brush up on your Shakespeare and you'll know what I mean.

moondog0
02-28-2006, 11:01 AM
I am not the biggest Ali fan but even I knew that that story was bull****, (although it was right on with the Norton view), I think this story was told to shake things up.....

Frazier's 15th round
02-28-2006, 11:11 AM
Yeah, it was put up at ESB a while back, before the site crashed. Smasher, you should edit your posts so the biggest Ali nuthugger, Butterfly, can give us his opinions of the article.

smasher
02-28-2006, 11:19 AM
Yeah, it was put up at ESB a while back, before the site crashed. Smasher, you should edit your posts so the biggest Ali nuthugger, Butterfly, can give us his opinions of the article.

Sorry man, I ****ed up. From now on I won't reply until after Butterfly. I just realized I won't get to read a two page response from him...

Poor kid getting baited again, he's going to wear out his keyboard with anymore of those postings...

Then again I won't have to scroll down half a page of Ali pictures...

Yogi
02-28-2006, 11:36 AM
Excellant thread, and if at the very least it'll show Butterfly how very easy it is to criticize a fighter's opponents, which he seems to be quite fond of doing with his constant "bum(s)" comments.

Boxclever
02-28-2006, 11:55 AM
I Did say a few posts back that it was a joke, you boys not gonna give me any credit :(

Southpaw Stinger
02-28-2006, 12:01 PM
What a foolish article. Anyone can critisize any boxer if an article was written in aparticular way.

Was it posted here as a joke or did the guy think it was really against Ali?

SnoopySmurf
02-28-2006, 12:33 PM
Very good example of "spin". And if this really was a joke, it was well done. :)

Dempsey 1919
02-28-2006, 02:20 PM
so ya'll like to talk about me when i'm not around, huh? haha, it's ok, i'm cool with that. any way, i kind of figured out myself that it was fake, cause he said charles and watcott would crush him, lol!! :D

Heckler
02-28-2006, 02:59 PM
it wasn't a joke because that ****en moron with multiple missing chromosomes '15thround' legitimately believed it. Im not sure if this is cox, i would expect cox to produce something logical and cohesive... in this article the writer compares the Ali that fought Larry Holmes to other fighters.

Dempsey 1919
02-28-2006, 03:06 PM
it wasn't a joke because that ****en moron with multiple missing chromosomes '15thround' legitimately believed it. Im not sure if this is cox, i would expect cox to produce something logical and cohesive... in this article the writer compares the Ali that fought Larry Holmes to other fighters.

maybe frazier 15th round didn't know himself.

Heckler
02-28-2006, 03:13 PM
Exactly, Frazier 15th round being the retard he is posted this not knowing it was a joke.

SnoopySmurf
02-28-2006, 04:10 PM
He got bamboozled. Hoodwinked. He took the bait, hook, line and sinker.

smasher
02-28-2006, 04:11 PM
it wasn't a joke because that ****en moron with multiple missing chromosomes '15thround' legitimately believed it. Im not sure if this is cox, i would expect cox to produce something logical and cohesive... in this article the writer compares the Ali that fought Larry Holmes to other fighters.

I have spoken by e-mail with the author. The original article was 100% written by Monte Cox as a joke. If you want verification his e-mail address is on his website.

BUTTERFLY,

Nice change with the pictures which raises the question. Rate Ali's wives in order of do-ability. Here's mine.

1) Veronica (gotta go with a model)
2) Belinda (close to Veronica but don't like the Muslim dress)
3) Sonji (cute but short, wore a wig and smoked)
4) Lonnie (distant 4th)

Dempsey 1919
02-28-2006, 04:16 PM
I have spoken by e-mail with the author. The original article was 100% written by Monte Cox as a joke. If you want verification his e-mail address is on his website.

BUTTERFLY,

Nice change with the pictures which raises the question. Rate Ali's wives in order of do-ability. Here's mine.

1) Veronica (gotta go with a model)
2) Belinda (close to Veronica but don't like the Muslim dress)
3) Sonji (cute but short, wore a wig and smoked)
4) Lonnie (distant 4th)

i would have it veronica porshe, then sonji clay, then belinda ali, then lonnie ali.

bebopfan05
02-28-2006, 05:38 PM
something i can't stand is when people say Marciano fought bums and was a horrible fighter and people will put facts out there and then you'll shoot them down, i mean sure there's a possibilty of this fighter being beat by Rocky or the other fighter may land a punch on Rocky and KO him but when somebody critises Ali everybody runs and calls them an idiot or says they're stupid for saying this, face it Ali fought bums but if somebody points out the facts everybody's right there with and excuse. Great 3 year lay-off
i understand he was standing up for his beliefs ya know what i respect the fact that if he was gunna standup he would at least takethe stripping of his title, but i mean nothing stopped him from working out in a gym in his spare time to stay in shape, everybody *****es about somebody hugging tyson's nuts or marciano's nuts or foreman's nuts, but the biggest number of nuthuggers on this forum are ali nuthuggers, the difference between Ali nut huggers and other so called "nuthuggers" are Ali nuthuggers think that Ali could beat anyone, everyone else labeled nut huggers are usally ppl that think some fighter would beat him, so that person is labeled a "that fighter" nuthugger

face it there are ppl that would beat ali (the few) and beat tyson and just because they point that out, or just because thats there opinion doesn't make them a nuthugger,

beside that the fact is you can't take much away from ali because he did fight some of the best fighters and he did win the title 3 times, and not only that what he stood for politically wasn't always the best but atleast he did with his head held up high

smasher
02-28-2006, 06:08 PM
face it Ali fought bums

If Ali fought bums in Liston, Frazier and Foreman then Marciano fought corpses in Louis, Walcott, Moore...combined ages...106

The_One77
02-28-2006, 06:12 PM
This author is basically saying that the greatest heavyweights of the 70's and 80's are crap, because Ali beat everyone there was to be beaten around at those 2 era's.
He's got a point though, so many of his opponents had so many losses. But who else was there to fight? :confused:

bebopfan05
02-28-2006, 06:14 PM
This author is basically saying that the greatest heavyweights of the 70's and 80's are crap, because Ali beat everyone there was to be beaten around at those 2 era's.
He's got a point though, so many of his opponents had so many losses. But who else was there to fight? :confused:
very true so its not like all his opponents were superhumans

but what i meant by face i ali fought bums was that he did fight bums thats not to say all his oppoenets were bums but some of the fighters he fought were bums

Dempsey 1919
02-28-2006, 06:22 PM
very true so its not like all his opponents were superhumans

but what i meant by face i ali fought bums was that he did fight bums thats not to say all his oppoenets were bums but some of the fighters he fought were bums

yeah, but even the better of marciano's opponents weren't that special. but the better of ali's opponents were some of the greatest hw's of all-time.

RockyMarcianofan00
02-28-2006, 06:42 PM
yeah, but even the better of marciano's opponents were that special. but the better of ali's opponents were some of the greatest hw's of all-time.

Rocky actually fought alot of HOF'ers but just because Ali had better oposition doesn't mean Marciano wasn't in the same league

if you say that then your being naive

-and if i spelt nieve wrong then i'm being naive
:p

Yogi
02-28-2006, 06:46 PM
and if i spelt nieve wrong then i'm being neive
:p

Yeah?

Then you really must be naive! :p

Yogi
02-28-2006, 06:48 PM
Yes Stinger, I really was your English teacher.

smasher
02-28-2006, 06:54 PM
Rocky actually fought alot of HOF'ers but just because Ali had better oposition doesn't mean Marciano wasn't in the same league

Here we go again. Marciano's competition is nowhere near Ali's. Marciano only fought 8 fighters who weighed over 200 lbs. Most of Marciano's opponents were light-heavyweights.

5 Marciano opponents never won a fight.

2 Marciano opponents had only won 1 fight.

1 Marciano oppopnent had only won 2 fights.

5 other Marciano opponents had losing records.

Ted Lowry weighed 177 lbs and had 48 losses went the distance with Marciano. In the rematch Lowry now had 56 losses and he again went the distance with Marciano. Did Lowry have a granite jaw you ask? Lee Q Murray dropped him 7 times in one fight before KO'ing him. Rusty Payne KO'd him. Harry Mathews KO'd him. Guess not.

RockyMarcianofan00
02-28-2006, 06:57 PM
Yeah?

Then you really must be naive! :p
i knew i spelt it wrong

i got it edit it

RockyMarcianofan00
02-28-2006, 07:00 PM
alot of Marciano's opponents were good though

i'd like to point out 10 fights out of 49

that means 36 were good (he rematched 3 ppl charles,walcott,lastarza)

also you have to fight bad ppl to get to the top
Liston,Ali and other Champions they all had to fight bums to get up with the contenders
that doesn't make them any less of opponents

hellfire508
02-28-2006, 07:12 PM
What, you mean this 15th round?

http://hofboxingautographs.com/images/products/SSG-JF-30Hmed.jpg



The article is all factual. Only Ali nuthuggers like yourself don't believe it. Ali had a padded record, it's well known. The good fighters he fought made him look bad, and he was often given gift decisions simply because he was a loudmouth.

No, the one where he didnt fight because he was TKO'd. If he came out, Ali would have killed him. Futch knew it, thus the stoppage.

hellfire508
02-28-2006, 07:13 PM
YOU GUYS ARE COMPLETE ****ING MORONS. THAT ARTICLE WAS WRITTEN AS A JOKE BY BOXING HISTORIAN MONTE COX WHO WROTE UNDER THE NAME OF MONTROSE ON ANOTHER BOXING WEBSITE FORUM. HE DID IT AS AN EXAMPLE HOW FANS OFTEN LOOK AT THE NEGATIVES OF A FIGHTER WHILE COMPLETELY IGNORING THE POSITIVES. IT WAS DONE AS A COMEBACK TO A POSTER CALLED REVOLVER WHO HAD WRITTEN A SIMILAR BREAKDOWN OF JOE LOUIS HIGH LIGHTING ALL THE NEGATIVES OF JOE'S OPPOSITION. COX DID IT AS A JOKE AND UNFORTUNATELY THOSE WITH IQ'S IN THE DOUBLE DIGITS FELL FOR IT.

Actually I remember that. Though I didn't recognize the article from that incident.

smasher
02-28-2006, 07:21 PM
Ali and other Champions they all had to fight bums to get up with the contenders


On February 7, 1961 Ali was scheduled to fight Willie Guelat (6-3-2). Guelatt didn't show and Jimmy Robinson (0-1-0) stepped in as a last minute substitute. Ali KO'd Robinson in 1 round.

Robinson is the ONLY Ali opponent with a losing record

RockyMarcianofan00
02-28-2006, 07:32 PM
Rocky fought 4 guys that had negative records- all ko'd in the first round

and 2 that was there first fight - his first was the Epperson's first and it took Marciano 3 rounds

and the other guy was tko'd in 1 rd

and they were all within his first year of fighting

his last was 1948-12-14 (Gilley Ferron)

like Ali he fought guys in the beginning of his carreer with positive but less then decent records and even those stopped after he became a contender

Yogi
02-28-2006, 07:38 PM
Ted Lowry weighed 177 lbs and had 48 losses went the distance with Marciano. In the rematch Lowry now had 56 losses and he again went the distance with Marciano. Did Lowry have a granite jaw you ask? Lee Q Murray dropped him 7 times in one fight before KO'ing him. Rusty Payne KO'd him. Harry Mathews KO'd him. Guess not.

Lowry has always been complimented on his ability to take a punch by those such as Marciano, Joe Louis (who used to belt Lowry around in sparring), and Archie Moore...who busted Lowry's jaw early in the fight only to see Tiger Ted last the full distance with the Ole Mongoose.

I don't see how only three stoppage losses to good hitters like Payne, Matthews and especially Murray (who was thought of as one of the very hardest punchers of his day) in nearly 150 fights indicates someone who doesn't have a good chin...Along with his tricky & defensive spoiler style (which was said to have consisted of a good amount of evasive footwork & clinching when an opponent got close), Lowry was always applauded for his chin & staying power back in the day.

Is it a black mark against Marciano because he couldn't knock out a "tough, ringwise heavyweight" when, according to a Dr. Thomas B. Quigley who diagnosed the injury from X-Rays only two weeks before the first fight, Marciano was fighting the guy with a slipped disc that was supposed to have required an operation?

smasher
02-28-2006, 07:43 PM
Rocky fought 4 guys that had negative records- all ko'd in the first round

and 2 that was there first fight - his first was the Epperson's first and it took Marciano 3 rounds

and the other guy was tko'd in 1 rd

and they were all within his first year of fighting

his last was 1948-12-14 (Gilley Ferron)


1950 EATMAN 15-19-3
1951 MITCHELL 3-11-3
1951 HENRI 13-15-1
1951 APPLEGATE 10-14-2 (WENT THE DISTANCE!)

That's 4 fights after 1948 when he fought fighters with losing records.

How dare you challenge me with your lack of research.

Southpaw Stinger
02-28-2006, 07:50 PM
Yes Stinger, I really was your English teacher.

lol Nice to know you haven't lost the touch sir.

RockyMarcianofan00
02-28-2006, 08:00 PM
1950 EATMAN 15-19-3
1951 MITCHELL 3-11-3
1951 HENRI 13-15-1
1951 APPLEGATE 10-14-2 (WENT THE DISTANCE!)

That's 4 fights after 1948 when he fought fighters with losing records.

How dare you challenge me with your lack of research.
wow in 49 fights 9ppl didn't have good records

thats what i think roughly 18% of his fights?

and thats 8 fights before he got his belt

so what are you trying to prove there was better fighters in the 70's? yea we know that

just because Ali had one fight with a negative record doesn't really prove anything because if Rocky had fought in the 60's and 70's in his prime maybe he'd have less ko's but he'd still for the most part be undefeated he may have one or 2 losses but then again maybe not because there are few ppl that could beat marciano IMO

some ppl that may have beaten Marciano or maybe would have given him a run for his money at the very least

Foreman
Tyson
Ali
Frazier
Holmes

maybe Shavers, maybe norton

now 5 or 6 fought in the 70's so really thats not to bad

The Noose
02-28-2006, 09:09 PM
That article may have been intended as a joke, but ive read plently of opinons that are just as messed up.

smasher
02-28-2006, 10:46 PM
[QUOTE=RockyMarcianofan00]

wow in 49 fights 9ppl didn't have good records

No, not just 9 people that didn't have good records. There were plenty more, they just didn't have winless or losing records.2-1,3-2,8-5,7-6,9-6,18-7,15-8,12-6,23-12,10-9,57-48-9,18-10,29-18,60-56-10,8-8-1 etc....

Let's see now one fighter at .500, 3 with 1 win over .500, Lowry who has won only half his fights fights then rematched when he had won less than half his fights, one guy with 3 fights, one guy with 5 fights etc...the list goes on and on....MANY OF MARCIANO'S OPPONENTS HAD POOR RECORDS

Marciano was a pro for 8 years and champion for 3. His last title fight came a month after turning 32 years of age. With Marciano's poor competition and early retirement there would be several former champions that would have been retired at 49-0.

Yogi
02-28-2006, 10:55 PM
Based simply on their respective Win/Loss records;

Lamar Clark > Joe Frazier

RockyMarcianofan00
02-28-2006, 11:03 PM
you make his comptetition sound like they were amateur fighters alright we all know he didn't have the greatest Competition but he did have good fights, Carmine vingo,Roland Lastarza,Jersey Joe walcott etc

you can downplay him as much as you want but whether he had bad opposition or not he's probably in most ppl's top 5

the most common ranked above him are usually, Joe Louis,Ali,Frazier,Foreman, and if you rank rocky 6 sometimes they throw another fighter they like in there, point is he was a good fighter and would beat almost any hw, only a handful would have a good chance at beating him and another handful would give him trouble

thats not nuthugging thats just paying attnetion

smasher
02-28-2006, 11:04 PM
I don't see how only three stoppage losses to good hitters like Payne, Matthews and especially Murray (who was thought of as one of the very hardest punchers of his day) in nearly 150 fights indicates someone who doesn't have a good chin...

Is it a black mark against Marciano because he couldn't knock out a "tough, ringwise heavyweight"

I did not say he did not have a good chin, I said he did not have a granite chin. Lowry could be floored which he was. Lowry could be KO'd which he was.

Calling a guy tough and ringwise is pretty much a generic statement for anyone who has engaged in over 100 pro fights. Lowry had only won half of his fights in the first Marciano fight and less than half for the rematch. How about calling him "an often beaten light-heavyweight journeyman" which is what he really was.

Even calling Lowry a heavyweight is a stretch. Lowry weighed 177 against Marciano. Most of his fights were fought at or near the light-heavyweight limit and several of his earlier fights were fought at or slightly above the middleweight limit.

Using Marciano's injury as an excuse for the first fight might have some merit to it if he KO'd Lowry in the rematch. He didn't.

Heckler
03-01-2006, 12:21 AM
you make his comptetition sound like they were amateur fighters alright we all know he didn't have the greatest Competition but he did have good fights, Carmine vingo,Roland Lastarza,Jersey Joe walcott etc

you can downplay him as much as you want but whether he had bad opposition or not he's probably in most ppl's top 5

the most common ranked above him are usually, Joe Louis,Ali,Frazier,Foreman, and if you rank rocky 6 sometimes they throw another fighter they like in there, point is he was a good fighter and would beat almost any hw, only a handful would have a good chance at beating him and another handful would give him trouble

thats not nuthugging thats just paying attnetion


Larry Holmes, Frazier, Ali, Louis, Foreman, Dempsey, Tyson (maybe) - all fighters that have a good chance of dealing to Rocky Marciano, although Tyson might be pushing it. So your right, irrespective of his opposition... not many could beat him.

Heckler
03-01-2006, 12:25 AM
very true so its not like all his opponents were superhumans

but what i meant by face i ali fought bums was that he did fight bums thats not to say all his oppoenets were bums but some of the fighters he fought were bums

Whats this obsession, everyone fights bums... yet people rarely take into account the fact that the fighters they are trying to discredit fought the BEST THERE WERE, and Marciano and Ali definately did this.

Frazier's 15th round
03-01-2006, 12:28 AM
As far as me being a ****ing moron and thinking the article was serious, I've already stated that I was well aware of the joke. I, in fact, posted in Montrose's "Muhammad Ali was not a great fighter" thread AT EAST SIDE BOXING when the article was still around (before the site crashed). I know the whole situation with Revolver, who might be an even bigger Ali nuthugger than Butterfly, Hellfire, or Heckler. Revolver put Ali at 1, Holmes at 2, Foreman 3, Liston 4, Tyson 5, Frazier 6, and he had a whole slew of Ali opponents in his top 20, like Folley and Terrell. Guys like Joe Louis and Rocky Marciano were nowhere to be found.

The article that Montrose wrote had me laughing my ass off, so I stored it in a safe place. I figured, since the "Why do you all hate on Muhammad Ali" thread was bumped, and about 8 more Ali threads were on the same page, it was a good time to post the article and get Ali's huggers riled up.

RockyMarcianofan00
03-01-2006, 12:36 AM
i know some people don't put Marciano on there top 10 and i don't think its right but i deal with it but if you don't put Joe Louis at least in your top 3, or even at the very least top 5 then there's really something wrong

Frazier's 15th round
03-01-2006, 12:39 AM
i know some people don't put Marciano on there top 10 and i don't think its right but i deal with it but if you don't put Joe Louis at least in your top 3, or even at the very least top 5 then there's really something wrong

I agree. I feel somewhat similar about Frazier. He had a lackluster career after Ali 1, so I understand people not putting him in their top 10. But to put him in the top 6 is even worse, especially because it's usually to build up Ali (as if he needs to be built up anymore). You can see people like Revolver putting all the greats Ali beat right behind him in their rankings, so they can go "Oh, look! Ali beat the 3rd, 4th, and 5th best fighters ever!"

smasher
03-01-2006, 01:08 AM
Lowry has always been complimented on his ability to take a punch by those such as Marciano, Joe Louis (who used to belt Lowry around in sparring), and Archie Moore...who busted Lowry's jaw early in the fight only to see Tiger Ted last the full distance with the Ole Mongoose.

I don't see how only three stoppage losses to good hitters like Payne, Matthews and especially Murray (who was thought of as one of the very hardest punchers of his day) in nearly 150 fights indicates someone who doesn't have a good chin...Along with his tricky & defensive spoiler style (which was said to have consisted of a good amount of evasive footwork & clinching when an opponent got close), Lowry was always applauded for his chin & staying power back in the day.

Is it a black mark against Marciano because he couldn't knock out a "tough, ringwise heavyweight" when, according to a Dr. Thomas B. Quigley who diagnosed the injury from X-Rays only two weeks before the first fight, Marciano was fighting the guy with a slipped disc that was supposed to have required an operation?

I too own a copy of "BIOGRAPHY OF A FIRST SON" pages 123-24

SMASHER > RockyMarcianofan00

SMASHER = Yogi

RockyMarcianofan00
03-01-2006, 01:16 AM
I too own a copy of "BIOGRAPHY OF A FIRST SON" pages 123-24

SMASHER > RockyMarcianofan00

SMASHER = Yogi
ur an idiot

your know where near as smart as yogi

and you think your better then me great have fun with it

Living Legend
03-01-2006, 01:35 AM
It's funny how people like to hate on Ali, when everyone, I mean everyone would love to see a fighter like ali in the heavy weights right now!!! Call it what you want, ALi whooped ass back then and would whoop some heavyweight ass right now...

smasher
03-01-2006, 06:41 AM
ur an idiot

your know where near as smart as yogi

and you think your better then me great have fun with it

You can barely string together a coherant sentance and I'm the idiot?

Get an education. The mind is a terrible thing to waste. Learn how to spell, then actually start watching boxing, researching it, and obtaining some knowledge before raising your ridiculous, ignorant, and biased arguments on a boxing forum.

hellfire508
03-01-2006, 08:13 AM
As far as me being a ****ing moron and thinking the article was serious, I've already stated that I was well aware of the joke. I, in fact, posted in Montrose's "Muhammad Ali was not a great fighter" thread AT EAST SIDE BOXING when the article was still around (before the site crashed). I know the whole situation with Revolver, who might be an even bigger Ali nuthugger than Butterfly, Hellfire, or Heckler. Revolver put Ali at 1, Holmes at 2, Foreman 3, Liston 4, Tyson 5, Frazier 6, and he had a whole slew of Ali opponents in his top 20, like Folley and Terrell. Guys like Joe Louis and Rocky Marciano were nowhere to be found.

The article that Montrose wrote had me laughing my ass off, so I stored it in a safe place. I figured, since the "Why do you all hate on Muhammad Ali" thread was bumped, and about 8 more Ali threads were on the same page, it was a good time to post the article and get Ali's huggers riled up.

I am an Ali nuthugger? :confused:

I stick up for the guy when ignorant posters like you come along, because I know how great he was, and hate to see people talking him down. I don't go to the extent of saying he was unbeatable, there is no chance no-one was greater etc. etc. It seems the words - "hater", "nuthugger", "exposed" and "shot" are thrown around too easily on boxing forums these days.

dennis_nengasca
03-01-2006, 09:21 AM
The greatest fighter is the one who is unbeatable.... I'm sorry to tell yah but no other boxer can reach the achievement of "the greatest" Rocky Marciano. The only flawless boxer with astonishing record of KO's. Ali is only considered as the greatest when "Amature" boxing is concern. He wn a gold medal at the Olypics and that was the only greatest achievement he has got.

I am so sorry if you got sored.

Boxclever
03-01-2006, 10:02 AM
I Sussed this as a joke waaaaaaaaaaaay back, so HA :D

Yaman
03-01-2006, 12:31 PM
Does annybody know Ali's amateur record?

Southpaw Stinger
03-01-2006, 02:14 PM
Does annybody know Ali's amateur record?

W 127 L 5

Dempsey 1919
03-01-2006, 02:53 PM
W 127 L 5

it's 100-8-0.

Southpaw Stinger
03-01-2006, 03:04 PM
I got mine off his biography site. Still yours is probrably right.

Dempsey 1919
03-01-2006, 07:30 PM
I got mine off his biography site. Still yours is probrably right.

all the sources i've read say that it was 100-8-0.

Southpaw Stinger
03-01-2006, 08:30 PM
Like I said, yours is probrably right. Do you know how many he won in a row?

RockyMarcianofan00
03-01-2006, 10:09 PM
i was just reading something that i thought was interesting because i had never read it before

after the Liston v Clay I
Cassius Clay changed his name to Muhammad X and then to Muhammad Ali

Heckler
03-01-2006, 10:16 PM
lol im a nuthugger am i Frazier15thround? Yet you are the one coming out with **** like Ali was a bum? I think Ali was the greatest HW boxer to set foot in the ring, and i justify it... but i dont discredit other fighters of his ERA, you don't see me trying to discredit Frazier whom i know is a great fighter. But coming out with something like 'ali was a bum' shows how pathetic and slanted you are. Hate him, sure, but any true boxing fan or enthusiast will acknowledge he was a GREAT. And yeah i think you believe that article, and took it seriously. Especially with some of the ridiculous **** you have come out with on these forums.

KingTito
03-01-2006, 10:23 PM
You must not understand or respect the sport of boxing. Ali fought Berbick in the last fight of his career, long after he should've retired. It was virtually the same scenario with Holmes, I mean, you're not even mentioning the great things that Ali did like Liston, Frazier, or Foreman,and for your information, Lewis was getting his ass kicked by Klitschko until the fight was stopped. If it wasn't for Klitschko bleeding at the slightest impact, he would've ripped Lewis a new *******. Open you eyes bud, it's ridiculous to talk **** on the ambassador of the sport.

Dempsey 1919
03-01-2006, 11:55 PM
i was just reading something that i thought was interesting because i had never read it before

after the Liston v Clay I
Cassius Clay changed his name to Muhammad X and then to Muhammad Ali

actually it was cassius x and not muhammad x.

RockyMarcianofan00
03-01-2006, 11:56 PM
actually it was cassius x and not muhammad x.
oh i was looking at his boxing record here
http://www.boxrec.com/boxer_display.php?boxer_id=000180
and it said Muhammad x

Dempsey 1919
03-02-2006, 12:03 AM
oh i was looking at his boxing record here
http://www.boxrec.com/boxer_display.php?boxer_id=000180
and it said Muhammad x

well, they're wrong, it's cassius x, because the x symbolizes that he wasn't cassius anymore just like malcolm little changed his name to malcolm x to signify that he wasn't malcolm little anymore, and that he had changed.

hellfire508
03-02-2006, 12:14 AM
Yeah it was Cassius X. "Clay" was considered a slave name, thus that was dropped and the given name was kept. Then Elijah Muhammad allocated the name "Muhammad Ali" to him.

SuzieQ49
03-02-2006, 12:48 AM
I remember this article by monte. it was beutfiful! it was a great joke that gave me a good laugh and relieved all the anger I had toward the most bias poster ever "revolver"

Verstyle
03-02-2006, 01:09 AM
ne boxer can ve criticized no1 is perfect

DaWayne
03-02-2006, 05:17 AM
Hey how can you even say this about Ali.Why don't you post joe's record starting with Cummings because you probaly read books on this or your arel hatter.because how long did Joes peak last.

Yaman
03-02-2006, 07:00 AM
it's 100-8-0.

Were any of his losses by KO?
And how many times did he KO's did he have?

Stiv Rex
03-02-2006, 11:55 AM
Red Smith and David anderson? who the **** are they? what about reputable historians, guys LIKE COX from cox's corner and others that think Ali won quite clearly.


dave anderson wrote one of the best nonfiction boxing books of all time, maybe you should look it up. "In the Corner."

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0688119042/qid=1141314125/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/102-6158780-6476101?s=books&v=glance&n=283155

there is always two sides to every story, always a point/counterpoint. I personally agree with a lot of the article, ali IS overrated. the only thing about him that was the greatest was his mouth, his ability to sell a fight. parkinsons robbed the world of ali's mouth. he never needed don king to sell his fights, he would have been the greatest promoter of all time.

anybody who ever grew up during ali's prime thinks he is the greatest boxer of all time, all classes, blah blah. thats because theres never been a more deluded and selfish generation than those people. joe louis, tyson, holmes, maybe even marciano would have all whipped ali if it was prime vs. prime. thats my boxing opinion.
personally, i think ali was a piece of ****. he had no class or respect for his opponents or his family or friends. he was a legend in his own mind, now hes trapped with that and the whole world has *****-itis feeling sorry for the guy without considering what kind of person he really was. its crazy, you read any one of the 800million books on ali, and every writer talks about all the ****ed up things he did and said, and at the same time they still have a hard on for him, making him out to be some sort of visionary or political icon?! he was a know-nothing athlete with a big mouth and pretty good boxing ability.

Stiv Rex
03-02-2006, 12:10 PM
It's funny how people like to hate on Ali, when everyone, I mean everyone would love to see a fighter like ali in the heavy weights right now!!! Call it what you want, ALi whooped ass back then and would whoop some heavyweight ass right now...


thats a good point legend. i would like to see ali fighting now, it would be better than valuev-ruiz and byrd-klitschko. he was the greatest mouth of all time, he could bring fans to boxing. ali would have a shot against all the heavyweights out there right now too, although i think toney would make him look stupid.

Southpaw Stinger
03-02-2006, 12:53 PM
toney would make him look stupid.

Toney doesn't make anyone look stupid. He's a fat middle weight and I can see Ali laughing at the guy for a full fight!

Frazier's 15th round
03-02-2006, 02:13 PM
Hey how can you even say this about Ali.Why don't you post joe's record starting with Cummings because you probaly read books on this or your arel hatter.because how long did Joes peak last.

Depends on how you look at it. Frazier started throwing only left hooks by about 1970, but I'd say he was prime from about 1968-1973. After FOTC, he was unmotivated, lazy both in the ring and out (such as laziness in the clinches and not training very hard). But I think he still had a lot of ability. But after Foreman, he wasn't the same intense animal in the ring, throwing punches non-stop. By the way, Cummings KO1 Ali. :p

personally, i think ali was a piece of ****. he had no class or respect for his opponents or his family or friends. he was a legend in his own mind, now hes trapped with that and the whole world has *****-itis feeling sorry for the guy without considering what kind of person he really was. its crazy, you read any one of the 800million books on ali, and every writer talks about all the ****ed up things he did and said, and at the same time they still have a hard on for him, making him out to be some sort of visionary or political icon?! he was a know-nothing athlete with a big mouth and pretty good boxing ability.

THAT is why I don't like Muhammad Ali. If he wasn't such a dick, I might like him. I mean, he's gotten a little nicer in his old age, but you can't excuse all those things he did. I mean, I think Ken Norton likes him, but Frazier hated his guts for like 30 years, Foreman doesn't respect his ability and claims that he was drugged during Rumble in the Jungle, and even Holmes has been trashing Ali (although, to be fair, Holmes does that to everybody). Those were the other big guns when Ali was around. I'm sure more boxers he faced don't exactly love him.

Southpaw Stinger
03-02-2006, 02:49 PM
Foreman doesn't respect his ability and claims that he was drugged during Rumble in the Jungle

George has long since dismissed that statement. He said he was looking for excuses to explain his loss at the time.

The_One77
03-02-2006, 04:55 PM
All the great heavyweights have flaws in their records....alot of there opposition has so many losses.
Tbh the only heavyweight champion who's opposition isn't crammed with losses is Lennox Lewis.

Southpaw Stinger
03-02-2006, 04:57 PM
All the great heavyweights have flaws in their records....alot of there opposition has so many losses.
Tbh the only heavyweight champion who's opposition isn't crammed with losses is Lennox Lewis.

True but a lot of his best opponents were past their prime when he beat them. And he did suther some humiliating KO's agianst guys who shouldn't have beat him.

Kid Achilles
03-02-2006, 07:35 PM
Lewis had two extremely terrible defeats and he remains the only heavyweight champion of all time who never fought on after a knockdown.

paul750
03-02-2006, 07:37 PM
Lewis had two extremely terrible defeats and he remains the only heavyweight champion of all time who never fought on after a knockdown.
Yeah but come on, he wanted to continue against McCall, and he didn't make the count against Rahman, you're implying he had no heart, which is total nonsense.

Shaolin Bushido
03-02-2006, 07:41 PM
He wrote all that instead of simply saying, "I'm a dumbass".

The Noose
03-02-2006, 08:07 PM
dave anderson wrote one of the best nonfiction boxing books of all time, maybe you should look it up. "In the Corner."

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0688119042/qid=1141314125/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/102-6158780-6476101?s=books&v=glance&n=283155

there is always two sides to every story, always a point/counterpoint. I personally agree with a lot of the article, ali IS overrated. the only thing about him that was the greatest was his mouth, his ability to sell a fight. parkinsons robbed the world of ali's mouth. he never needed don king to sell his fights, he would have been the greatest promoter of all time.

anybody who ever grew up during ali's prime thinks he is the greatest boxer of all time, all classes, blah blah. thats because theres never been a more deluded and selfish generation than those people. joe louis, tyson, holmes, maybe even marciano would have all whipped ali if it was prime vs. prime. thats my boxing opinion.
personally, i think ali was a piece of ****. he had no class or respect for his opponents or his family or friends. he was a legend in his own mind, now hes trapped with that and the whole world has *****-itis feeling sorry for the guy without considering what kind of person he really was. its crazy, you read any one of the 800million books on ali, and every writer talks about all the ****ed up things he did and said, and at the same time they still have a hard on for him, making him out to be some sort of visionary or political icon?! he was a know-nothing athlete with a big mouth and pretty good boxing ability.

In short...Ali was a pretty good boxer who is considered to be in the top ten p4p list of nearly every boxing expert, historian, fighter, that ive ever heard.

To discredit Ali, is to discredit all of his opponents and wins.

Take away Ali's mouth, and he is still an amazing fighter.


Most people would never have the balls to speak thier mind when their whole career could depend on it.

Heckler
03-02-2006, 10:04 PM
George has long since dismissed that statement. He said he was looking for excuses to explain his loss at the time.

George also said that Dundee loosened the ropes, he later retracted this statement... he was BITTER.

RockyMarcianofan00
03-02-2006, 10:06 PM
i think Foreman still thinks he was better then Ali though

Heckler
03-02-2006, 10:10 PM
dave anderson wrote one of the best nonfiction boxing books of all time, maybe you should look it up. "In the Corner."

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0688119042/qid=1141314125/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/102-6158780-6476101?s=books&v=glance&n=283155

there is always two sides to every story, always a point/counterpoint. I personally agree with a lot of the article, ali IS overrated. the only thing about him that was the greatest was his mouth, his ability to sell a fight. parkinsons robbed the world of ali's mouth. he never needed don king to sell his fights, he would have been the greatest promoter of all time.

anybody who ever grew up during ali's prime thinks he is the greatest boxer of all time, all classes, blah blah. thats because theres never been a more deluded and selfish generation than those people. joe louis, tyson, holmes, maybe even marciano would have all whipped ali if it was prime vs. prime. thats my boxing opinion.
personally, i think ali was a piece of ****. he had no class or respect for his opponents or his family or friends. he was a legend in his own mind, now hes trapped with that and the whole world has *****-itis feeling sorry for the guy without considering what kind of person he really was. its crazy, you read any one of the 800million books on ali, and every writer talks about all the ****ed up things he did and said, and at the same time they still have a hard on for him, making him out to be some sort of visionary or political icon?! he was a know-nothing athlete with a big mouth and pretty good boxing ability.


Your a moron. Ali had the balls to come out, state his views and opinions with conviction, in 1960's america... this was simply viewed as outrageous for an african american of his status to do this. He had more to loose by refusing to go to vietnam then going. He will always have my respect for that. ****ed up things? Most of it was hype, even with Frazier it was mostly hype, but he went to far... hes not perfect, no-one is. Let me guess, your an old white guy?

Kid Achilles
03-02-2006, 10:17 PM
I'm not saying Lewis had no heart but it's true that he was the only heavyweight champion to never continue a fight after a knockdown. His chin wasn't neccesarily glass but when he was hurt, he was HURT.

Heckler
03-02-2006, 10:17 PM
The greatest fighter is the one who is unbeatable.... I'm sorry to tell yah but no other boxer can reach the achievement of "the greatest" Rocky Marciano. The only flawless boxer with astonishing record of KO's. Ali is only considered as the greatest when "Amature" boxing is concern. He wn a gold medal at the Olypics and that was the only greatest achievement he has got.

I am so sorry if you got sored.

Was this like a joke? so his achievement of beating liston, frazier x2, foreman is nothing. Marciano was a great fighter but 'show me a fighter who hasn't been beat, and ill show you one that hasn't fought anybody' He beat an old Walcott, Ezzard charles, and Louis. He reigned in the weakest period of boxing (on par with now). He beat the best there was at the time, and was without a doubt a GREAT that deserves to be in the top 10 if not the top 5.

Stiv Rex
03-05-2006, 08:39 PM
Your a moron. Ali had the balls to come out, state his views and opinions with conviction, in 1960's america... this was simply viewed as outrageous for an african american of his status to do this. He had more to loose by refusing to go to vietnam then going. He will always have my respect for that. ****ed up things? Most of it was hype, even with Frazier it was mostly hype, but he went to far... hes not perfect, no-one is. Let me guess, your an old white guy?

Ali was a big mouth idiot. What was his stand? "I disagree with the war because it is a white mans war." Maybe the ideology behind it was questionable (marshall plan, domino theory), and the tactics used to initiate and carry it out were as well (gulf of tonkin conspiracy, agent orange, selective draft, air america etc), but thats beside the point.
The point is he turned his back on america for bull**** racial reasons. America isnt about black and white, not now, not ever. People who believe that and incorporate that belief into their everyday actions dont do a ****ing thing to end racism, they just perpetuate hostility and distrust. They make it worse, which is what ali did.
Joe louis went to war, and when he did it america was a WHOLE lot worse for black people. He didnt even get a gun, he talked to troops and people at home to help morale. He was an american first, not a black man first. And despite his other shortcomings, (drugs, gambling, mental illness) even today 60+ years later he is loved; in the end he brought people together.
Now, we know that ali's opinion was not his original idea, it was suggested to him by elijah mohammed, who proved to be a mysogynist, racist, thief, borderline pedophile, MURDERER (malcom X, who by the way was opposed to ali's stance after his seperation from the nation of islam. He also wanted to bring people together, regardless of their race), violent, all-around-piece-of-****.
Has ali ever changed his opinion? I honestly dont know. I think that would give me a reason to not think he was a piece of ****, because most people can be easily influenced when they are young, especially considering ali's unique position in the world.
Yes, ****ed up things. There is a difference between showmanship, selling a fight, and classless, racist, babbling. Anyone can draw a crowd by yapping their head off about politically sensitive issues. That doesnt make them a "visionary," as ali has been referred to; it doesnt mean they have any real information regarding what they are talking about. Im tired of writing this, when i use generalizations and profanity like that its because i dont want to go through the waste of time writing out an explanatory email for dickheads like you. Go get a ****ing education before you call someone a moron for their views. Because, in this case, you end up dead wrong and looking pretty ****ing stupid yourself.
By the way, Im a 27 year old grad student at an ivy league school. My father is a first generation AMERICAN, who came over from italy when he was in his teens. My mother is a first generation AMERICAN as well, who is originally from spain. Am I italian-american, or italian-spanish-american, or italian-latino-american? Nope, Im american, and you're a dip****.

BIG_BOSS
03-05-2006, 08:42 PM
ali was great, hense "greatest of all time"

Dempsey 1919
03-05-2006, 10:30 PM
I'm not saying Lewis had no heart but it's true that he was the only heavyweight champion to never continue a fight after a knockdown. His chin wasn't neccesarily glass but when he was hurt, he was HURT.

what about sonny liston?

Yogi
03-05-2006, 10:50 PM
what about sonny liston?

Liston got off the floor to win a fight against Marshall, which was early on in his career.

Heckler
03-05-2006, 11:10 PM
Ali was a big mouth idiot. What was his stand? "I disagree with the war because it is a white mans war." Maybe the ideology behind it was questionable (marshall plan, domino theory), and the tactics used to initiate and carry it out were as well (gulf of tonkin conspiracy, agent orange, selective draft, air america etc), but thats beside the point.
The point is he turned his back on america for bull**** racial reasons. America isnt about black and white, not now, not ever. People who believe that and incorporate that belief into their everyday actions dont do a ****ing thing to end racism, they just perpetuate hostility and distrust. They make it worse, which is what ali did.
Joe louis went to war, and when he did it america was a WHOLE lot worse for black people. He didnt even get a gun, he talked to troops and people at home to help morale. He was an american first, not a black man first. And despite his other shortcomings, (drugs, gambling, mental illness) even today 60+ years later he is loved; in the end he brought people together.
Now, we know that ali's opinion was not his original idea, it was suggested to him by elijah mohammed, who proved to be a mysogynist, racist, thief, borderline pedophile, MURDERER (malcom X, who by the way was opposed to ali's stance after his seperation from the nation of islam. He also wanted to bring people together, regardless of their race), violent, all-around-piece-of-****.
Has ali ever changed his opinion? I honestly dont know. I think that would give me a reason to not think he was a piece of ****, because most people can be easily influenced when they are young, especially considering ali's unique position in the world.
Yes, ****ed up things. There is a difference between showmanship, selling a fight, and classless, racist, babbling. Anyone can draw a crowd by yapping their head off about politically sensitive issues. That doesnt make them a "visionary," as ali has been referred to; it doesnt mean they have any real information regarding what they are talking about. Im tired of writing this, when i use generalizations and profanity like that its because i dont want to go through the waste of time writing out an explanatory email for dickheads like you. Go get a ****ing education before you call someone a moron for their views. Because, in this case, you end up dead wrong and looking pretty ****ing stupid yourself.
By the way, Im a 27 year old grad student at an ivy league school. My father is a first generation AMERICAN, who came over from italy when he was in his teens. My mother is a first generation AMERICAN as well, who is originally from spain. Am I italian-american, or italian-spanish-american, or italian-latino-american? Nope, Im american, and you're a dip****.


You are a moron. Why should Ali have been patriotic? his logic is a very sensible one... WHY SHOULD I FIGHT, OR BE PATRIOTIC FOR A NATION THAT WILL NOT GIVE ME EQUALITY. Simple. At an ivy league school? do you really think i give a **** about your nations stupid ass obsession with prestige in education? Im a 21 year old from New Zealand currently attending University studying sociology... whats your point? Outside of America(if you are able to comprehend an existance outside America) we laugh at morons such as yourself that are blindly patriotic. Ali come out with the statement 'no vietcong ever called me ******'. Ali genuinely held these views and was not forced to express them the way he did ^ (with passion). Ali, along with most Americans at the time did not know where Vietnam was and again his logic was simple yet sensible. Why should i go and fight in a nation i know nothing about, be part of a war machine that will inflict casualites on a people that have done nothing to me, because the govt of my country decided to go to war as a result of bull**** political motivations. Ali is not racist, he WAS a seperatist. His following of the Nation of Islam was very loose. They thought white man was the devil, however he was close to various white persons such as howard cosell and angelo dundee... thus he left the Nation of Islam due to his inability to see eye to eye with elijah. 'I use to think white people should be with white people and blacks with blacks, now i think colour is irrelevant' - Muhammad Ali.

And people don't get me wrong, people will look at this post and may get the impression that i dislike Americans. Thats not the case at all, ive met many and found them to be very decent people... i just dont like the minority whom are blindly patriotic.

smasher
03-05-2006, 11:18 PM
You are a moron. Why should Ali have been patriotic? his logic is a very sensible one... WHY SHOULD I FIGHT, OR BE PATRIOTIC FOR A NATION THAT WILL NOT GIVE ME EQUALITY. Simple. At an ivy league school? do you really think i give a **** about your nations stupid ass obsession with prestige in education? Im a 21 year old from New Zealand currently attending University studying sociology... whats your point? Outside of America(if you are able to comprehend an existance outside America) we laugh at morons such as yourself that are blindly patriotic. Ali come out with the statement 'no vietcong ever called me ******'. Ali genuinely held these views and was not forced to express them the way he did ^ (with passion). Ali, along with most Americans at the time did not know where Vietnam was and again his logic was simple yet sensible. Why should i go and fight in a nation i know nothing about, be part of a war machine that will inflict casualites on a people that have done nothing to me, because the govt of my country decided to go to war as a result of bull**** political motivations. Ali is not racist, he WAS a seperatist. His following of the Nation of Islam was very loose. They thought white man was the devil, however he was close to various white persons such as howard cosell and angelo dundee... thus he left the Nation of Islam due to his inability to see eye to eye with elijah. 'I use to think white people should be with white people and blacks with blacks, now i think colour is irrelevant' - Muhammad Ali.

And people don't get me wrong, people will look at this post and may get the impression that i dislike Americans. Thats not the case at all, ive met many and found them to be very decent people... i just dont like the minority whom are blindly patriotic.

The American government told Muhammad Ali "We want you to go to Vietnam and kill people."

Muhammad Ali said "I don't mind getting in the ring and beating people up but I don't want to go to Vietnam to kill people."

So the American government said, "Well if you're not going to kill people, we won't let you beat people up!"

RockyMarcianofan00
03-06-2006, 12:00 AM
The American government told Muhammad Ali "We want you to go to Vietnam and kill people."

Muhammad Ali said "I don't mind getting in the ring and beating people up but I don't want to go to Vietnam to kill people."

So the American government said, "Well if you're not going to kill people, we won't let you beat people up!"

ya know they probably wouldn't have even made him shoot a gun they probably would have done what they did with Joe Louis
put him in exhibition fights to raise moral

hellfire508
03-06-2006, 12:06 AM
Oh my god. Some people's ignorance is pathetic. Joe Louis went to war because World War 2 was a just war, in everybody's eyes. How just was Vietnam? I've said this a thousand times, i'm rather right-winged, however I know the Vietnam war was not just. Why the hell should Muhammad Ali goto a war that is against his religion, and for a cause he doesn't believe in? At the peak of the civil rights movement - when black people were finally fighting back for their equality - Ali was drafted for a totally unjust war, to fight for a country who treated him and his people like ****. He stood up for HIS beliefs, and I totally support his decision. Good on him for growing some balls and standing up for his people.

Don't give me that "he should have been patriotic like Joe Louis" bull****. Joe Louis did what he was told. That was his character obviously. Ali did not. And he made the right choice. Patriotic? WHY THE **** should he fight for a country that treats him and his people like animals? Especially when its for such a ****ty war like vietnam.

hellfire508
03-06-2006, 12:09 AM
QUOTE: ---- "The greatest fighter is the one who is unbeatable.... I'm sorry to tell yah but no other boxer can reach the achievement of "the greatest" Rocky Marciano. The only flawless boxer with astonishing record of KO's. Ali is only considered as the greatest when "Amature" boxing is concern. He wn a gold medal at the Olypics and that was the only greatest achievement he has got.

I am so sorry if you got sored."



LMAO!!!!
No fighter is, was or ever will be unbeatable. Why is Rocky Marciano the greatest? Because he retired undefeated? Put him in with Ali's competition and make him fight til he has Parkinsons, then we'll see how he goes...

And what are you talking about with Ali as an amateur? He is nowhere near the greatest amateur. You have no idea what you are talking about.

RockyMarcianofan00
03-06-2006, 12:10 AM
Oh my god. Some people's ignorance is pathetic. Joe Louis went to war because World War 2 was a just war, in everybody's eyes. How just was Vietnam? I've said this a thousand times, i'm rather right-winged, however I know the Vietnam war was not just. Why the hell should Muhammad Ali goto a war that is against his religion, and for a cause he doesn't believe in? At the peak of the civil rights movement - when black people were finally fighting back for their equality - Ali was drafted for a totally unjust war, to fight for a country who treated him and his people like ****. He stood up for HIS beliefs, and I totally support his decision. Good on him for growing some balls and standing up for his people.

Don't give me that "he should have been patriotic like Joe Louis" bull****. Joe Louis did what he was told. That was his character obviously. Ali did not. And he made the right choice. Patriotic? WHY THE **** should he fight for a country that treats him and his people like animals? Especially when its for such a ****ty war like vietnam.

alright i'll tell you what i tell ppl about the iraqi war

you can oppose the war that idc about, thats fine everybody has there opinion, but when you won't support the troops thats just wrong, they maybe against it but they're doing there duty to protect the US, so you can oppose the war but never do not support the troops, what america was doing is stopping the spread of comunism, comunism is what leads to war, they stopped war by having one

Heckler
03-06-2006, 03:23 AM
alright i'll tell you what i tell ppl about the iraqi war

you can oppose the war that idc about, thats fine everybody has there opinion, but when you won't support the troops thats just wrong, they maybe against it but they're doing there duty to protect the US, so you can oppose the war but never do not support the troops, what america was doing is stopping the spread of comunism, comunism is what leads to war, they stopped war by having one

How is going to Vietnam protecting the US? Going to WW2 following the attack on PH was protecting the US. Communism does not result in war? communism is merely an economic system. What would of caused a war are nations failing to accept that others excersised different ideology. The yanks were at fault just as much as the soviets were. How did they stop a war by having one? when they lost the war they got involved in?

Heckler
03-06-2006, 03:25 AM
ya know they probably wouldn't have even made him shoot a gun they probably would have done what they did with Joe Louis
put him in exhibition fights to raise moral

Thats irrelevant, if he went it would imply that he SUPPORTED THE WAR. Which he didn't.

Heckler
03-06-2006, 03:46 AM
Depends on how you look at it. Frazier started throwing only left hooks by about 1970, but I'd say he was prime from about 1968-1973. After FOTC, he was unmotivated, lazy both in the ring and out (such as laziness in the clinches and not training very hard). But I think he still had a lot of ability. But after Foreman, he wasn't the same intense animal in the ring, throwing punches non-stop. By the way, Cummings KO1 Ali. :p



THAT is why I don't like Muhammad Ali. If he wasn't such a dick, I might like him. I mean, he's gotten a little nicer in his old age, but you can't excuse all those things he did. I mean, I think Ken Norton likes him, but Frazier hated his guts for like 30 years, Foreman doesn't respect his ability and claims that he was drugged during Rumble in the Jungle, and even Holmes has been trashing Ali (although, to be fair, Holmes does that to everybody). Those were the other big guns when Ali was around. I'm sure more boxers he faced don't exactly love him.

Ken Norton likes him, Rocky Marciano liked him. Joe Frazier and Terell are the only people i know of that dislike him to this day. Away from the pre-fight hype people have always noted, especially fans and various sports writers that met him that he was a genuinely nice guy.. even people such as Howard cosell noted this. If you listened to his interviews, watched him interact with people you may come to this conclusion. Larry Holmes is a TRUE ******* that discredits everyone.

What Ali did to Frazier was wrong and ****en cruel. There is no denying this. That doesn't make Ali a bad person.

"I said a lot of things in the heat of the moment that I shouldn't have said. Called him names I shouldn't have called him. I apologize for that. I'm sorry. It was all meant to promote the fight." - Muhammad Ali on Joe Frazier.

Dempsey 1919
03-06-2006, 04:18 PM
Ken Norton likes him, Rocky Marciano liked him. Joe Frazier and Terell are the only people i know of that dislike him to this day. Away from the pre-fight hype people have always noted, especially fans and various sports writers that met him that he was a genuinely nice guy.. even people such as Howard cosell noted this. If you listened to his interviews, watched him interact with people you may come to this conclusion. Larry Holmes is a TRUE ******* that discredits everyone.

What Ali did to Frazier was wrong and ****en cruel. There is no denying this. That doesn't make Ali a bad person.

"I said a lot of things in the heat of the moment that I shouldn't have said. Called him names I shouldn't have called him. I apologize for that. I'm sorry. It was all meant to promote the fight." - Muhammad Ali on Joe Frazier.

don't pay any attention to frazier15thround. his words stink of joe frazier's nut sack and anus.

Boxclever
03-06-2006, 04:23 PM
This thread is a joke. :cool:

Dempsey 1919
03-06-2006, 04:41 PM
This thread is a joke. :cool:

of course it is.

RockyMarcianofan00
03-06-2006, 04:51 PM
How is going to Vietnam protecting the US? Going to WW2 following the attack on PH was protecting the US. Communism does not result in war? communism is merely an economic system. What would of caused a war are nations failing to accept that others excersised different ideology. The yanks were at fault just as much as the soviets were. How did they stop a war by having one? when they lost the war they got involved in?

i didn't say America won the war, i said they went to war to prevent a war, also communism is an aggressive economic system, they invaded to spread what they believed, almost like a tyranny, anyway as "bad" as the government was they were a hell of a people, US would blow up a bridge, they'd have it rebuilt in a few hours

its amazing when you think about it

anyway point is Ali didn't go and whether your for or against it

Southpaw Stinger
03-06-2006, 04:54 PM
Ali wasn't respected much at that time. He was looked down on because he was black. If Americans didn't treat him like an American, why should he fight for America?

Asif Iqbal
03-06-2006, 05:31 PM
This is the biggest load of unwanted trash ive ever heard.

Ali was the greatest thing that ever lived in the ring, he was even greater outside it. He never ducked no one and he was truly the greatest boxer. I mean come on, jealousy usually does play a big part in a naive opinion.

Here is the latest Ali is the Greatest

Dempsey 1919
03-06-2006, 05:38 PM
This is the biggest load of unwanted trash ive ever heard.

Ali was the greatest thing that ever lived in the ring, he was even greater outside it. He never ducked no one and he was truly the greatest boxer. I mean come on, jealousy usually does play a big part in a naive opinion.

Here is the latest Ali is the Greatest

yes, he truly was.

Mick Hucknall
03-06-2006, 05:52 PM
I do believe that a lot of that article was very biased but some of facts were certainly eye opening to say the least. Oh and btw SRR was THEE GREATEST

RockyMarcianofan00
03-06-2006, 05:53 PM
This is the biggest load of unwanted trash ive ever heard.

Ali was the greatest thing that ever lived in the ring, he was even greater outside it. He never ducked no one and he was truly the greatest boxer. I mean come on, jealousy usually does play a big part in a naive opinion.

Here is the latest Ali is the Greatest

see when ppl say this i have to bring up an old quote

its all in the presentation
Ali was great can't really take that away from him
but the greatest eh

he presented himself as a crazy man with a death wish (ie Liston) he made it seem like he had no idea what he was in for by telling jokes etc

then he got in the ring and instead of goofing off he actually fought, after which is when he said he was the greatest, so by using this stradegy of making fun of his opponents and repeatidly saying "I'm the Greatest" etc he made that his presentation and was excepted as such :boxing:

RockyMarcianofan00
03-06-2006, 05:55 PM
I do believe that a lot of that article was very biased but some of facts were certainly eye opening to say the least. Oh and btw SRR was THEE GREATEST
i can appreciat Sugar Ray Robinson
once again i hate calling anybody thee greatest because thats not really a title to give someone but Sugar Ray R was a great fighter

Mick Hucknall
03-06-2006, 06:07 PM
I think he was the best all round though my favourite fighter is without a doubt Marciano

RockyMarcianofan00
03-06-2006, 06:10 PM
i usually don't watch middleweight but Sugar Ray Robinson and Jake Lamotta are worth watching

Heckler
03-06-2006, 09:07 PM
i didn't say America won the war, i said they went to war to prevent a war, also communism is an aggressive economic system, they invaded to spread what they believed, almost like a tyranny, anyway as "bad" as the government was they were a hell of a people, US would blow up a bridge, they'd have it rebuilt in a few hours

its amazing when you think about it

anyway point is Ali didn't go and whether your for or against it

Communism is only an economic system, it cannot be agressive. Exponenets of communism were often agressive, but not communism itself. And they were no more agressive then america whom constantly overthrew elected communist govts because they wanted THEIR own ideals in place throughout the world. Going to war did not prevent a war, the collapse of the soviet union due to their own poor decisions prevented a war. The only way peace could be achieved in that time was by accepting others rights to excersise their values system. If Vietnam wants communism, which majority did due to their current poor economic performance, so be it. If South American countries wanted Communism, so be it. Cuba is communist and has a health and social systems that put those of America to shame. Ali never turned his back on America, unlike involvement in ww2 vietnam never occured to protect the AMERICAN PEOPLE... it was merely a result of bull**** political motivations which resulted in war in which civillian welfare was totally disregarded. I dont blame you for holding your views, you were probably spoonfed bull**** throughout your education. Ali didn't go, and why would he want to be involved in one of Americas biggest military ****ups that achieved nothing.

RockyMarcianofan00
03-06-2006, 09:18 PM
Communism is only an economic system, it cannot be agressive. Exponenets of communism were often agressive, but not communism itself. And they were no more agressive then america whom constantly overthrew elected communist govts because they wanted THEIR own ideals in place throughout the world. Going to war did not prevent a war, the collapse of the soviet union due to their own poor decisions prevented a war. The only way peace could be achieved in that time was by accepting others rights to excersise their values system. If Vietnam wants communism, which majority did due to their current poor economic performance, so be it. If South American countries wanted Communism, so be it. Cuba is communist and has a health and social systems that put those of America to shame. Ali never turned his back on America, unlike involvement in ww2 vietnam never occured to protect the AMERICAN PEOPLE... it was merely a result of bull**** political motivations which resulted in war in which civillian welfare was totally disregarded. I dont blame you for holding your views, you were probably spoonfed bull**** throughout your education. Ali didn't go, and why would he want to be involved in one of Americas biggest military ****ups that achieved nothing.


you know what i mean

i'm not getting into polotics cause to be honest with you basically your never going to find anyone that agree's with you so or me or whoever

bottom line is....whatever we were talking about before

sleazyfellow
03-06-2006, 10:22 PM
i dont like ali personally, but hes a great fighter, gotta b #1 or 2 on many ppls top ten list, hes only number two on mine cause he didnt have knockout power

edit: oh and i gotta agree this article is garbage

Frazier's 15th round
03-07-2006, 03:17 AM
don't pay any attention to frazier15thround. his words stink of joe frazier's nut sack and anus.

:rolleyes:

Butterfly, please. I've argued against Joe Frazier, and I don't think I've ever made a thread about him. Unlike you, who worships Ali's balls, makes 10 threads about him a day, never gives any other fighter in history credit, and 99 percent of your posts mentions him. I think it is you, sir, who needs to climb out of Ali's ass.

SuzieQ49
03-07-2006, 03:54 AM
butterfly,


u dont have to rank guys ali beat joe frazier,sonny liston, george foreman # 2, 3,4 greatest heavyweights of all time just to back ur case that ali was the greatest heavyweight of all time


i rate frazier, foreman, liston at bottom half of my top 10, but i still think ali was # 1 or 2 heavyweight of all time



you ***** out walcott and charles, but overhype patterson as like hes in a class above those two. why? because patterson fought during alis era?


you dont have to overhype ali's opponents and rate them higher than everyone else does just to prove ur point that ali was the greatest. ali was probably the greatest, but like every champion he did have flaws. no ones unbeatable, and no ones perfect.

Dempsey 1919
03-07-2006, 01:57 PM
butterfly,


u dont have to rank guys ali beat joe frazier,sonny liston, george foreman # 2, 3,4 greatest heavyweights of all time just to back ur case that ali was the greatest heavyweight of all time


i rate frazier, foreman, liston at bottom half of my top 10, but i still think ali was # 1 or 2 heavyweight of all time



you ***** out walcott and charles, but overhype patterson as like hes in a class above those two. why? because patterson fought during alis era?


you dont have to overhype ali's opponents and rate them higher than everyone else does just to prove ur point that ali was the greatest. ali was probably the greatest, but like every champion he did have flaws. no ones unbeatable, and no ones perfect.

i don't rank foreman, frazier, and liston high because they fought ali. i rank them like that because they were that good. seriously, virtually no one could handle foreman's or liston's power, and frazier had great power as well, and tore through the division resoundingly.

and patterson is underrated. i do believe he's better than charles and walcott. look at their records. look at who they fought and beat and lost to.

Dempsey 1919
03-07-2006, 03:05 PM
:rolleyes:

Butterfly, please. I've argued against Joe Frazier, and I don't think I've ever made a thread about him. Unlike you, who worships Ali's balls, makes 10 threads about him a day, never gives any other fighter in history credit, and 99 percent of your posts mentions him. I think it is you, sir, who needs to climb out of Ali's ass.

this is not even true.

moondog0
03-07-2006, 03:31 PM
I would have to say it is 100% true.....

Dempsey 1919
03-07-2006, 03:37 PM
I would have to say it is 100% true.....

and i would have to say your a :mad: 100% moron!!!

SuzieQ49
03-07-2006, 04:10 PM
and patterson is underrated. i do believe he's better than charles and walcott. look at their records. look at who they fought and beat and lost to.



walcott and charles beat better fighters



charles at 175-185lb beat

archie moore 3x
elmer ray
jersey joe walcott 2x
Jimmy Bivins 4x
Joey Maxim 5x
past his prime Joe louis
Harold Johnson- Robbery



Jersey Joe Walcott beat

Ezzard Charles 2x
Elmer Ray 2x
Jimmy Bivins
Joey Maxim 2x
Joe Louis- Robbed
Harold Johnson


i mean i left a lot of good names off on both lists, but I defintley think charles and walcott beat the better fighters

Dempsey 1919
03-07-2006, 04:21 PM
walcott and charles beat better fighters



charles at 175-185lb beat

archie moore 3x
elmer ray
jersey joe walcott 2x
Jimmy Bivins 4x
Joey Maxim 5x
past his prime Joe louis
Harold Johnson- Robbery



Jersey Joe Walcott beat

Ezzard Charles 2x
Elmer Ray 2x
Jimmy Bivins
Joey Maxim 2x
Joe Louis- Robbed
Harold Johnson


i mean i left a lot of good names off on both lists, but I defintley think charles and walcott beat the better fighters

patterson beat,

archie moore
ingemmar johannson x2
tommy (hurricane) jackson x2
oscar bonavena
henry cooper

all on par if not better than most of the fighters you named.

Easy-E
03-07-2006, 04:49 PM
the fact that this thread has gone 14 pages is disgraceful. the article is a pathetic and embrassingn attempt to discredit the greatest hw of all time.

RockyMarcianofan00
03-07-2006, 08:12 PM
Ali's toughest opponent for sure was uncle sam

Ali won though by KO in year 5

sry i was looking for the other thread but w/e

SuzieQ49
03-08-2006, 12:43 AM
patterson beat,

archie moore
ingemmar johannson x2
tommy (hurricane) jackson x2
oscar bonavena
henry cooper

all on par if not better than most of the fighters you named.

jeezz, ur really screwing patterson.

U PUT henry cooper and hurricane jackson on the list, but no george chuvalo and eddie machen who were better fighters?

you forgot to include jerry quarry and jimmy ellis since patterson was robbed vs them



im sorry but ur very mistaken


walcott beat louis, charles who were better than any fighter patterson beat.

are u trying to tell me archie moore and jerry quarry was better than joe louis and ezzard charles?

walcott also beat a better list of contenders than patterson did


charles beat walcott who was a better fighter than any fighter patterson ever beat


charles also beat a better list of contenders than patterson.



archie moore, past prime louis, bivins, ray, johnson(robbery) were better wins than ellis(robbery), quarry(robbery), archie moore, bonavena, past prime machen.




so how does pattersons win resume on par with walcott and charles?




the best heavyweight patterson ever beat was either Johansen, quarry(robbery) or moore.

SuzieQ49
03-08-2006, 12:50 AM
how bout we throw the bad decisions out and include only "official wins"


walcott still beat better comp than patterson


elmer ray, ezzard charles, harold johnson, jimmy bivins, were better wins than ingemar johannsen, archie moore, oscar bonavena, over the hill machen.



as for charles


past prime joe louis, walcott, moore , ray were better wins than moore, ingo, bonavena, and past prime machen.




im not trying to take anything away from patterson. I think hes underated. hes in my top 20 heavies of all time, defintley. i think patterson vs walcott and charles would be very close fights

Dempsey 1919
03-08-2006, 03:35 AM
how bout we throw the bad decisions out and include only "official wins"


walcott still beat better comp than patterson


elmer ray, ezzard charles, harold johnson, jimmy bivins, were better wins than ingemar johannsen, archie moore, oscar bonavena, over the hill machen.



as for charles


past prime joe louis, walcott, moore , ray were better wins than moore, ingo, bonavena, and past prime machen.




im not trying to take anything away from patterson. I think hes underated. hes in my top 20 heavies of all time, defintley. i think patterson vs walcott and charles would be very close fights

yeah, but i see floyd winning.

SuzieQ49
03-08-2006, 04:56 AM
yeah, but i see floyd winning.


how do u base this conclusion?


did u ever see ezzard charles pre 1950?

watch charles agaisnt pat valentino 1949, honest to god he looks like sugar ray robinson . watch charles footwork in this fight, its amazing

I expect charles to outbox patterson from a distance the whole fight and up close, charles will outfight floyd on the inside. charles could bang too, he had a lot of snap in his punches and he was a cutter. floyds face will be swollen badly by the end of this fight. i expect floyd to drop patterson early, floyds a very hard puncher and his handspeed will catch charles off gaurd a few times. I also see charles flooring floyd with one of his counterpunches. patterson would score some big points along the way with his power punches and aggression but charles better ring skills will help him prevail over the distance.


1949 charles vs 1960 patterson

charles 15 close but clear unanimous


patterson loved to brawl, and I think that would be a mistake against a bigger, stronger walcott. Walcott had the better chin than patterson and I believe he would win the battle on the inside. watch the louis fight, walcott shows incredible craftiness, mobility, speed.

one thing walcott will have to watch out for is pattersons leapy left hook when walcott goes into his shuffle.

patterson his whole career was susceptible to big counter rights, so i suspect walcotts sneaky right hand to do a lot of damage when it lands on patterson much like ingos right hand

walcott would outbox patterson from a distance with his hammer like jab and his slickness, agility, mobility will help him evade pattersons lightniting fast blows which walcott will counter with big uppercuts and hooks. I do think pattersons handspeed would give walcott fits, but walcott had pretty fast hands himself. pattersons willingness to brawl will be his downfall in this fight.

johannsen wasnt as good a puncher as walcott IMO, but floyd couldnt deal with johannsens punches. quarry put down patterson 3 times in 2 fights.



1947 walcott vs 1960 floyd patterson?


walcott TKO 13 patterson- even fight until stoppage

moy22487
03-08-2006, 05:04 AM
i also heard he wasnt black, hes a dark mexican. true story

Frazier's 15th round
03-08-2006, 07:44 AM
Anyways, I made the thread, so I have the final say. Ali was not a great fighter, he was an okay fighter. But many, such as Frazier, Young, and Wepner, exposed him. Ali was chinny, as evidenced by Henry Cooper and Sonny Banks. The rest of his big wins were fixed fights.

If you think any differently, then you are an uncle tom.

hellfire508
03-08-2006, 08:36 AM
I'm torn between the resumes of Patterson and Walcott. Walcott beat the likes of Louis (counting robberies), Ray, Maxim, Bivins and Charles. Patterson beat Bonavena, Ellis and Quarry (again counting robberies - though I'm only going by readings), Machen, Cooper, Johansson and Chuvalo. Both are extremely impressive resumes. Louis is obviously the biggest victory for Walcott, yet it was a faded Louis, and officially a loss.

I think the resumes are pretty much on par with each other.

Dempsey 1919
03-08-2006, 12:45 PM
Anyways, I made the thread, so I have the final say. Ali was not a great fighter, he was an okay fighter. But many, such as Frazier, Young, and Wepner, exposed him. Ali was chinny, as evidenced by Henry Cooper and Sonny Banks. The rest of his big wins were fixed fights.

If you think any differently, then you are an uncle tom.

there's nothing to say about that statement.

Dempsey 1919
03-08-2006, 12:46 PM
how do u base this conclusion?


did u ever see ezzard charles pre 1950?

watch charles agaisnt pat valentino 1949, honest to god he looks like sugar ray robinson . watch charles footwork in this fight, its amazing

I expect charles to outbox patterson from a distance the whole fight and up close, charles will outfight floyd on the inside. charles could bang too, he had a lot of snap in his punches and he was a cutter. floyds face will be swollen badly by the end of this fight. i expect floyd to drop patterson early, floyds a very hard puncher and his handspeed will catch charles off gaurd a few times. I also see charles flooring floyd with one of his counterpunches. patterson would score some big points along the way with his power punches and aggression but charles better ring skills will help him prevail over the distance.


1949 charles vs 1960 patterson

charles 15 close but clear unanimous


patterson loved to brawl, and I think that would be a mistake against a bigger, stronger walcott. Walcott had the better chin than patterson and I believe he would win the battle on the inside. watch the louis fight, walcott shows incredible craftiness, mobility, speed.

one thing walcott will have to watch out for is pattersons leapy left hook when walcott goes into his shuffle.

patterson his whole career was susceptible to big counter rights, so i suspect walcotts sneaky right hand to do a lot of damage when it lands on patterson much like ingos right hand

walcott would outbox patterson from a distance with his hammer like jab and his slickness, agility, mobility will help him evade pattersons lightniting fast blows which walcott will counter with big uppercuts and hooks. I do think pattersons handspeed would give walcott fits, but walcott had pretty fast hands himself. pattersons willingness to brawl will be his downfall in this fight.

johannsen wasnt as good a puncher as walcott IMO, but floyd couldnt deal with johannsens punches. quarry put down patterson 3 times in 2 fights.



1947 walcott vs 1960 floyd patterson?


walcott TKO 13 patterson- even fight until stoppage

patterson punches harder than both and has quicker hands than both, so patterson would knock them both out.

-Antonio-
03-10-2006, 01:38 PM
idk if this has been touched on, but you also have to look at the fact that Ali was absent for over 3 years due to legal problems in what was probably the prime of his career.

Dempsey 1919
03-10-2006, 02:01 PM
idk if this has been touched on, but you also have to look at the fact that Ali was absent for over 3 years due to legal problems in what was probably the prime of his career.

exactly. :cool:

The_One77
03-11-2006, 06:05 PM
You are a moron. Why should Ali have been patriotic? his logic is a very sensible one... WHY SHOULD I FIGHT, OR BE PATRIOTIC FOR A NATION THAT WILL NOT GIVE ME EQUALITY. Simple. At an ivy league school? do you really think i give a **** about your nations stupid ass obsession with prestige in education? Im a 21 year old from New Zealand currently attending University studying sociology... whats your point? Outside of America(if you are able to comprehend an existance outside America) we laugh at morons such as yourself that are blindly patriotic. Ali come out with the statement 'no vietcong ever called me ******'. Ali genuinely held these views and was not forced to express them the way he did ^ (with passion). Ali, along with most Americans at the time did not know where Vietnam was and again his logic was simple yet sensible. Why should i go and fight in a nation i know nothing about, be part of a war machine that will inflict casualites on a people that have done nothing to me, because the govt of my country decided to go to war as a result of bull**** political motivations. Ali is not racist, he WAS a seperatist. His following of the Nation of Islam was very loose. They thought white man was the devil, however he was close to various white persons such as howard cosell and angelo dundee... thus he left the Nation of Islam due to his inability to see eye to eye with elijah. 'I use to think white people should be with white people and blacks with blacks, now i think colour is irrelevant' - Muhammad Ali.

And people don't get me wrong, people will look at this post and may get the impression that i dislike Americans. Thats not the case at all, ive met many and found them to be very decent people... i just dont like the minority whom are blindly patriotic.


he didn't leave the nation because he didnt see eye to eye with eilajh, he stuck with eilijah till the day he died. (1975)
Eilijah's son took over the nation and taught that the black people shouldn't blame their problems on the white man, thats why Ali changed his mind.....because he was told to, Ali was never really smart.

Heckler
03-12-2006, 12:02 AM
More bull****. Ali was smart, if you watch interviews where hes thrown random questions... he answers very intelligently, expressing his opinions with conviction - Reporters, biographers etc note this. He didn't always see eye to eye with Elijah and this is a fact. He refused to fire Angelo Dundee and stop associating so heavily with whites. His following of the NOI was loose to say the least. In the 70s he started to distance himself from the NOI. Listen to a couple of Ali's speeches, interviews, and general conversation then come back and say he was stupid. 'African Americans gotta stop always blaming white people for their problems, should quit always beggin white men for things they should do for themselves, learn to stand on their own two feet' - MUHAMMAD ALI 1973.
**** OFF AND LEARN.

smasher
03-12-2006, 12:34 AM
Eilijah's son took over the nation and taught that the black people shouldn't blame their problems on the white man, thats why Ali changed his mind.....because he was told to, Ali was never really smart.
I find it strange that you would deem Ali as not being very smart because he followed the teachings of his religion.

How many Catholics the world wide flock to listen to and follow the religious guidance of a little old man in a white gown and funny hat, then live a life based on guilt and fear of an invisible man in the sky who is apparently capable of simultaneously monitoring everyone's thoughts and actions.

Maybe they're not very smart either.

hellfire508
03-12-2006, 01:10 AM
I find it strange that you would deem Ali as not being very smart because he followed the teachings of his religion.

How many Catholics the world wide flock to listen to and follow the religious guidance of a little old man in a white gown and funny hat, then live a life based on guilt and fear of an invisible man in the sky who is apparently capable of simultaneously monitoring everyone's thoughts and actions.

Maybe they're not very smart either.

Spot on mate.

The_One77
03-18-2006, 03:55 PM
He was good at talking, he wasn't an expertise in his field....and he wasn't any political leader either.
He basically always repeated himself in every interview, what his views were on race seperation, marriage etc. He just basically had an opinion like everyone else, calling white people devils and sounded like he had nothing to do with them when all along he dealt with white people everyday like Dundee and Kilroy. He was a hypocrite.
What did Ali say about his sudden change after all those years of blaming white people?...

After Eilijah died and Wallace took over the nation.

"Wallace showed that color don't matter. He taught that we're responsible for our own lifes and it's no good to blame our problems on other people. And that sounded right to me so i followed Wallace."

He basically followed everything that Eilijah told him to say, like a dog following it's master.

smasher
03-18-2006, 06:00 PM
He was good at talking, he wasn't an expertise in his field....and he wasn't any political leader either.
He basically always repeated himself in every interview, what his views were on race seperation, marriage etc. He just basically had an opinion like everyone else, calling white people devils and sounded like he had nothing to do with them when all along he dealt with white people everyday like Dundee and Kilroy. He was a hypocrite.
What did Ali say about his sudden change after all those years of blaming white people?...

After Eilijah died and Wallace took over the nation.

"Wallace showed that color don't matter. He taught that we're responsible for our own lifes and it's no good to blame our problems on other people. And that sounded right to me so i followed Wallace."

He basically followed everything that Eilijah told him to say, like a dog following it's master.
Have you ever heard of maturing and growing as an individual through life experience? All that white man is the devil bull**** was being fed to Ali when he was a young and impressionable man in his early 20's. Ali re-gurgitated it but had to have had conflicting thoughts when he was trained by a white man, his doctor was a white man, his promoters were white men, his management were white men (The Louisville Sponsor Group) and the very media that Ali loved to hang out with interact with and entertain were whites.

I have no idea how old you are but if you're in your 20's I can guarantee you that one day in the distant future I'm sure you will look back on some of the things you say, do and believe in and question where the **** your head was at.

The_One77
03-18-2006, 06:56 PM
Have you ever heard of maturing and growing as an individual through life experience? All that white man is the devil bull**** was being fed to Ali when he was a young and impressionable man in his early 20's. Ali re-gurgitated it but had to have had conflicting thoughts when he was trained by a white man, his doctor was a white man, his promoters were white men, his management were white men (The Louisville Sponsor Group) and the very media that Ali loved to hang out with interact with and entertain were whites.

I have no idea how old you are but if you're in your 20's I can guarantee you that one day in the distant future I'm sure you will look back on some of the things you say, do and believe in and question where the **** your head was at.

i know what you're saying, im just describing what Ali was like at the particular time in his life.

rickypryor
03-19-2006, 01:37 AM
When it comes to boxing, Ali IS TRULY Over-rated. I consider Ali as one of the greats who made boxing great, but he did NOT act like a champion nor carried himself like one. He is NOT "The Greatest" in my eyes.

If we compare Boxing Records to Report cards in High School, Rocky Marciano is "The Greatest" for his Undefeated Record.

If we leave ALL hype behind and all egos and favorites behind and counter-scenarios of who would have won out of any Heavyweight Champion in the History of Boxing and look at JUST the records, Rocky Marciano is "The Greatest" for his Undefeated Record.

If we look at one of the only Heavyweights, if not the only one, to STAY RETIRED when he announced retirement and proceeded down victory lane gracefully and like a TRUE CHAMPION:

Rocky Marciano is "The Greatest".


----------------------------------------------------------------

In the replying words of Roger Mayweather to Antonio Margarito as he talked Mayweather down and saying he could beat him in his Prime......."You ain't even in my time, Know Ya' DAMN HISTORY!"

http://www.thesweetscience.com/images/3179/roger_mayweather_240x230_062105.jpg

Dempsey 1919
03-19-2006, 01:47 AM
When it comes to boxing, Ali IS TRULY Over-rated. I consider Ali as one of the greats who made boxing great, but he did NOT act like a champion nor carried himself like one. He is NOT "The Greatest" in my eyes.

If we compare Boxing Records to Report cards in High School, Rocky Marciano is "The Greatest" for his Undefeated Record.

If we leave ALL hype behind and all egos and favorites behind and counter-scenarios of who would have won out of any Heavyweight Champion in the History of Boxing and look at JUST the records, Rocky Marciano is "The Greatest" for his Undefeated Record.

If we look at one of the only Heavyweights, if not the only one, to STAY RETIRED when he announced retirement and proceeded down victory lane gracefully and like a TRUE CHAMPION:

Rocky Marciano is "The Greatest".


----------------------------------------------------------------

In the replying words of Roger Mayweather to Antonio Margarito as he talked Mayweather down and saying he could beat him in his Prime......."You ain't even in my time, Know Ya' DAMN HISTORY!"

sure rickypryor, marciano is the greatest. :rolleyes: i guess that's why he was almost ko'd by a 42yr. old middleweight with one punch, huh? i guess thats why bums like lastarza could embarrass him but still get robbed? i guess that's why marciano is the most overrated piece of crap hw ever in the history of boxing? marciano is only the greatest to white racist ******s who need a white to be their savior. marciano was nothing but a bum who fought other bums. if he fought any top ten hw he would be crushed! guys like ali and holmes would have cut him up and embarrased him. johnson, louis, lewis, dempsey and frazier would methodically beat him down with ease. and foreman liston and tyson would just jump all over that little bum and kill him! marciano is just an over-hyped, unskilled cruiserweight who will only be known as "the greatest" to some because of his skin color. :cool:

sleazyfellow
03-19-2006, 02:18 AM
butterfly...why u always gotta bring race into it, it has nothing to do with race, what if ali was white u prolly wouldnt b hanging on his nuts so hard, although the 49-0 record is great it wasnt exactly a great title reign, which is why i dislike marciano. but bringing skin color into it is just dumb, mayb thats the reason u like ali so much cause u wish u were black..

rickypryor
03-19-2006, 06:08 AM
Well, Butterfly, in reponse to your questions and concerns......I did say ....."If we leave ALL hype behind and all egos and favorites behind and counter-scenarios of who would have won out of any Heavyweight Champion in the History of Boxing and look at JUST the records".

I am not for any Heavyweight Boxer nor do I have favorites cause I have my dislikes of every boxer regardless of weight-class. But, for the record, WINNING IS WINNING and Rocky marciano PROVED that he was the greatest of his era, not ducking ANYONE who challenged him including an aged Joe Louis. My take on Marciano fighting Louis: If you're tough enough to talk **** and step in the damn ring even at that age Louis was, you'd better bring your A+ Fighting Game cause that's your ass if you lose. The same goes for Walcott and Charles, I don't care if you're a Middleweight or Light-Heavyweight, if you think you're the ****, then PROVE it in the RING. Obviously, they couldn't against Marciano. And---it doesn't matter if Marciano was losing to Walcott, who eventually won is what counts......Oh yeah, Marciano by KO, not mostly decisions like Ali.

Another reason why I think Ali is not the greatest is him having physical advantages over other fighters:

1. Ali ALWAYS used his REACH to his benefit, he hardly ever had to duck or bob and weave to get in ANY of his opponents. (83" Reach)

2. He was a tall Heavyweight (6' 3") that towered over the 5'11 Joe Frazier who knocked Ali out.....***

-----------------------------------------------------------------

In the replying words of Roger Mayweather to Antonio Margarito as he talked Mayweather down and saying he could beat him in his Prime......."You ain't even in my time, Know Ya' DAMN HISTORY!"

http://www.thesweetscience.com/images/3179/roger_mayweather_240x230_062105.jpg

SuzieQ49
03-19-2006, 10:26 PM
sure rickypryor, marciano is the greatest. :rolleyes: i guess that's why he was almost ko'd by a 42yr. old middleweight with one punch, huh? i guess thats why bums like lastarza could embarrass him but still get robbed? i guess that's why marciano is the most overrated piece of crap hw ever in the history of boxing? marciano is only the greatest to white facist ******s who need a white to be their savior. marciano was nothing but a bum who fought other bums. if he fought any top ten hw he would be crushed! guys like ali and holmes would have cut him up and embarrased him. johnson, louis, lewis, dempsey and frazier would methodically beat him down with ease. and foreman liston and tyson would just jump all over that little bum and kill him! marciano is just an over-hyped, unskilled cruiserweight who will only be known as "the greatest" to some because of his skin color. :cool:



wow i didnt realize you were like this until now. is butterfly always like this?

Dempsey 1919
03-20-2006, 12:23 AM
wow i didnt realize you were like this until now. is butterfly always like this?

i just get so irate when people make marciano into god or something. it's just sickening.

Dempsey 1919
03-20-2006, 12:28 AM
butterfly...why u always gotta bring race into it, it has nothing to do with race, what if ali was white u prolly wouldnt b hanging on his nuts so hard, although the 49-0 record is great it wasnt exactly a great title reign, which is why i dislike marciano. but bringing skin color into it is just dumb, mayb thats the reason u like ali so much cause u wish u were black..

why else would someone tout marciano as some unstoppable juggernaut, even though the man was obviously unskilled, small and fought mostly small bums.

and number one, i am black. :rolleyes: but me being black has nothing to do with it. jack dempsey is white but he is one of my favorite fighters, and i never talk bad about him. i realize that the man was great and he was very skilled, skilled enough so you can say that he could have beaten great fighters from other era's, something you can't say about marciano.

Heckler
03-20-2006, 12:45 AM
Well, Butterfly, in reponse to your questions and concerns......I did say ....."If we leave ALL hype behind and all egos and favorites behind and counter-scenarios of who would have won out of any Heavyweight Champion in the History of Boxing and look at JUST the records".

I am not for any Heavyweight Boxer nor do I have favorites cause I have my dislikes of every boxer regardless of weight-class. But, for the record, WINNING IS WINNING and Rocky marciano PROVED that he was the greatest of his era, not ducking ANYONE who challenged him including an aged Joe Louis. My take on Marciano fighting Louis: If you're tough enough to talk **** and step in the damn ring even at that age Louis was, you'd better bring your A+ Fighting Game cause that's your ass if you lose. The same goes for Walcott and Charles, I don't care if you're a Middleweight or Light-Heavyweight, if you think you're the ****, then PROVE it in the RING. Obviously, they couldn't against Marciano. And---it doesn't matter if Marciano was losing to Walcott, who eventually won is what counts......Oh yeah, Marciano by KO, not mostly decisions like Ali.

Another reason why I think Ali is not the greatest is him having physical advantages over other fighters:

1. Ali ALWAYS used his REACH to his benefit, he hardly ever had to duck or bob and weave to get in ANY of his opponents. (83" Reach)

2. He was a tall Heavyweight (6' 3") that towered over the 5'11 Joe Frazier who knocked Ali out.....***

-----------------------------------------------------------------

In the replying words of Roger Mayweather to Antonio Margarito as he talked Mayweather down and saying he could beat him in his Prime......."You ain't even in my time, Know Ya' DAMN HISTORY!"

http://www.thesweetscience.com/images/3179/roger_mayweather_240x230_062105.jpg


Wait, so Ali isn't great because he had physical advantages right. Marciano was gifted with punching power, so hes not a great fighter. Lennox lewis height and size. George Foreman Strength and Size. Joe Louis a naturally gifted puncher, guess hes not that great either. Mike Tyson is short like Marciano and Frazier so that allows him to use a crouching style more effectively thus they all suck too.

if im not mistaken Frazier merely knocked Ali down and he got up straight away? No you're probably right, who am i to argue with a person that has such a strong grasp on logic and boxing history?

Yogi
03-20-2006, 01:10 AM
is butterfly always like this?

Yeah, he's prone to saying some stupid stuff on here, no doubt...but he's like that retarded little brother that we all wished we had, and we usually give him the benefit of the doubt because of his 'limitations'.

Dempsey 1919
03-20-2006, 01:27 AM
Yeah, he's prone to saying some stupid stuff on here, no doubt...but he's like that retarded little brother that we all wished we had, and we usually give him the benefit of the doubt because of his 'limitations'.

haha, yogi i have limitations, but i'm smart enough to know that many fighters could have beaten marciano and that the best fighters he beat were blown up to begin with. marciano is the most built up fighter of all time. a major reason for this is in fact his skin color. if marciano was black, then i'm sure many of you would not rank him as high as you do. most of you just saw joe louis a black man dominating for twelve years, and you just were waiting for someone like marciano to come along so you could just jump on his bandwagon.

Yogi
03-20-2006, 01:36 AM
haha, yogi i have limitations, but i'm smart enough to know that many fighters could have beaten marciano and that the best fighters he beat were blown up to begin with. marciano is the most built up fighter of all time. a major reason for this is in fact his skin color. if marciano was black, then i'm sure many of you would not rank him as high as you do. most of you just saw joe louis a black man dominating for twelve years, and you just were waiting for someone like marciano to come along so you could just jump on his bandwagon.

I'm admittedly a bit of a Marciano fan, Butterfly, but please don't include me in that group that sees him as some kind of God-like figure...I'd have him in the all-time top ten at Heavyweight in terms of overall greatness (and as I've said in the past, I try not to factor in head-to-head mythical matchups into my rankings), but it would be towards the bottom half of such a list.

In my opinion, some people do overrate Marciano, but at the same time some people underrate him.

Dempsey 1919
03-20-2006, 01:40 AM
I'm admittedly a bit of a Marciano fan, Butterfly, but please don't include me in that group that sees him as some kind of God-like figure...I'd have him in the all-time top ten at Heavyweight in terms of overall greatness (and as I've said in the past, I try not to factor in head-to-head mythical matchups into my rankings), but it would be towards the bottom half of such a list.

In my opinion, some people do overrate Marciano, but at the same time some people underrate him.

well as long as you know many fighters would beat him, you're cool with me. :cool:

The_One77
03-20-2006, 10:50 AM
Marciano was great but certainly not the greatest, his record dosen't have the great opposition that is required for him to be the greatest heavyweight champion ever.
It's as simple as that

smasher
03-20-2006, 11:50 AM
Marciano was great but certainly not the greatest, his record dosen't have the great opposition that is required for him to be the greatest heavyweight champion ever.
It's as simple as thatYou had to say that didn't you. We finally got SuzieQ49 (Marciano's unofficial 'Keeper of The Flame') talking about Julio Caesar Chavez, top 10 welterweights and Emile Griffith's sexuality and now you had to go and question the calibre of Marciano's opponents. Do you know what this means? Brace yourself for yet another SuzieQ49 onslaught of Tiger Ted Lowry, Roland Lastarza, Carmine Vingo, Rex Layne, Lee Savold, Harry Matthews, Ezzard Charles, Jersey Joe Walcott, Joe Louis and Archie Moore pictures and media quotes not to mention the obligatory Bobby Quinn and Eddie Ross VS every early opponent any other great champion fought. I might as well take a week hiatus now....

Yaman
03-20-2006, 12:34 PM
wow i didnt realize you were like this until now. is butterfly always like this?

Yeah he is. He doesn't like Marciano because most people would probably put him above Ali because he was greater than him. Ali didn't train for all of his fights, Marciano did, who's undefeated? I thought so..

He just tries to put Marciano down just to make people believe Ali was #1...just like he has 8 Ali opponents in his top10 all time HAHA! This white boy is hilarious..

EDIT:
Oh yeah Smasher, you're still not funny..perv.

Dempsey 1919
03-20-2006, 02:50 PM
Yeah he is. He doesn't like Marciano because most people would probably put him above Ali because he was greater than him. Ali didn't train for all of his fights, Marciano did, who's undefeated? I thought so..

He just tries to put Marciano down just to make people believe Ali was #1...just like he has 8 Ali opponents in his top10 all time HAHA! This white boy is hilarious..

EDIT:
Oh yeah Smasher, you're still not funny..perv.

you're an idiot if you think marciano was better than ali. and i have like 3 ali opponents in my top ten, not 8 retard. are you blind or just retarded?

and i'm black idiot, why do some people think i'm white? that's funny!! :D

smasher
03-20-2006, 05:20 PM
EDIT:
Oh yeah Smasher, you're still not funny..perv.
"I'M A 13 YEAR OLD WHITE KID WHO WANTS TO BE BLACK"
A DAY IN THE LIFE OF YAMAN

1) Hang out at 'The Gap' and price cotton dockers.

2) Memorize Eminem lyrics and practice Vanilla Ice dance moves.

3) Disobey the school crossing guard then brag to friends about living "the thug life."

4) Purchase medic alert bracelet for my peanut allergy then proudly show it off and refer to it as "bling bling."

5) Rename my twin pet parakeets "***** and ho".

6) Jerk off to Beyonce and wish I was butterfly1964.

7) Talk trash on boxingscene forum and so fellow posters will think I have "street cred."

8) Read the dictionary and try to figure out how to spell "Yogi."

9) Stare at self in mirror, try to look tough and repeat over and over with a lisp, "I want to eat your children" and "I'm gonna make you my girlfriend."

10) Watch rerun of Mike Tyson vs Hector Mercedes and convince myself no one could ever beat that version of Iron Mike.

Dempsey 1919
03-20-2006, 05:25 PM
"I'M A 13 YEAR OLD WHITE KID WHO WANTS TO BE BLACK"
A DAY IN THE LIFE OF YAMAN

1) Hang out at 'The Gap' and price cotton dockers.

2) Memorize Eminem lyrics and practice Vanilla Ice dance moves.

3) Disobey the school crossing guard then brag to friends about living "the thug life."

4) Purchase medic alert bracelet for my peanut allergy then proudly show it off and refer to it as "bling bling."

5) Rename my twin pet parakeets "***** and ho".

6) Jerk off to Beyonce and wish I was butterfly1964.

7) Talk trash on boxingscene forum and so fellow posters will think I have "street cred."

8) Read the dictionary and try to figure out how to spell "Yogi."

9) Stare at self in mirror, try to look tough and repeat over and over with a lisp, "I want to eat your children" and "I'm gonna make you my girlfriend."

10) Watch rerun of Mike Tyson vs Hector Mercedes and convince myself no one could ever beat that version of Iron Mike.

haha, lol!! :D

Yogi
03-20-2006, 05:26 PM
Hahahaha!

I don't care if it pisses Yaman off for saying this, but I thought THAT post by Smasher was ****ing hilarious.

Dempsey 1919
03-20-2006, 05:26 PM
6) Jerk off to Beyonce and wish I was butterfly1964.

yes, this is probably true. :D

Yaman
03-20-2006, 05:30 PM
"I'M A 13 YEAR OLD WHITE KID WHO WANTS TO BE BLACK"
A DAY IN THE LIFE OF YAMAN

1) Hang out at 'The Gap' and price cotton dockers.

2) Memorize Eminem lyrics and practice Vanilla Ice dance moves.

3) Disobey the school crossing guard then brag to friends about living "the thug life."

4) Purchase medic alert bracelet for my peanut allergy then proudly show it off and refer to it as "bling bling."

5) Rename my twin pet parakeets "***** and ho".

6) Jerk off to Beyonce and wish I was butterfly1964.

7) Talk trash on boxingscene forum and so fellow posters will think I have "street cred."

8) Read the dictionary and try to figure out how to spell "Yogi."

9) Stare at self in mirror, try to look tough and repeat over and over with a lisp, "I want to eat your children" and "I'm gonna make you my girlfriend."

10) Watch rerun of Mike Tyson vs Hector Mercedes and convince myself no one could ever beat that version of Iron Mike.

Hilarious Smasher.
Thats so sweet. You've probably been analizing all of my posts and everything i ever did on Boxingscene. How many times do i have to tell you, get a life and leave me alone. Seems like you know me better than i do. Thank you for prooving yourself to be some 40 year old white perv :D .

PS: ''Do you know how to go **** yourself?'' NO, but i guess you want to learn people huh. You probably **** yourself with an Ali action figure you ****ing ******.
Rant over.

The Raging Bull
03-20-2006, 05:30 PM
Ali was a great fighter. He went off the boil and stayed on longer than he shud of. But he revolutionized boxin.

:boxing:

Dempsey 1919
03-20-2006, 05:36 PM
Ali was a great fighter. He went off the boil and stayed on longer than he shud of. But he revolutionized boxin.

:boxing:

he sure did. props to thee greatest!

http://images.tsn.ca/images/stories/20050314/ali_53400.jpg

Yaman
03-20-2006, 05:39 PM
Yeah he was a great boxer. Some of his fans(Homosexuals like Smasher :( ) are dicks though.

How many of Ali's fights did you see.

smasher
03-20-2006, 05:39 PM
PS: ''Do you know how to go **** yourself?'' NO, but i guess you want to learn people huh. You probably **** yourself with an Ali action figure you ****ing ******.

SEE STEP #7.

Dempsey 1919
03-20-2006, 05:42 PM
SEE STEP #7.

haha, lol!

rocco1252
03-20-2006, 06:09 PM
sure rickypryor, marciano is the greatest. :rolleyes: i guess that's why he was almost ko'd by a 42yr. old middleweight with one punch, huh? i guess thats why bums like lastarza could embarrass him but still get robbed? i guess that's why marciano is the most overrated piece of crap hw ever in the history of boxing? marciano is only the greatest to white racist ******s who need a white to be their savior. marciano was nothing but a bum who fought other bums. if he fought any top ten hw he would be crushed! guys like ali and holmes would have cut him up and embarrased him. johnson, louis, lewis, dempsey and frazier would methodically beat him down with ease. and foreman liston and tyson would just jump all over that little bum and kill him! marciano is just an over-hyped, unskilled cruiserweight who will only be known as "the greatest" to some because of his skin color. :cool:
you mean just like ali is too you then? Your basing your judgement on skin color as well becasue I have never seen you give praise to anything white in any of these forums so you should be the one to talk huh? Ali was over rated, he wasnt the greatest but he was in the top 10 fighters of all time because of the person he was and the things he did. Put it this way if Ali didnt do the things he did outside the ring he wouldnt be considered such an inspirational figure inside the ring. Marciano would have beaten Ali in his prime no doubt, you put him up against people like Holmes maybe not Foreman probably not, Frazier he would beat no problem, Johnson and Lewis would have had some trouble with Marciano. I say this because of their fighting styles, styles make fights and Ali just happened to have a style that big men couldnt handle but if you watch him against Frazier he had some trouble in all 3 matches he wasnt the usual dominant Ali we were all used to seeing. Now if you put him up against someone stronger and more relentless in heart and fighting such as Marciano he would have had a real problem like he did Frazier.

Dempsey 1919
03-20-2006, 06:25 PM
you mean just like ali is too you then? Your basing your judgement on skin color as well becasue I have never seen you give praise to anything white in any of these forums so you should be the one to talk huh? Ali was over rated, he wasnt the greatest but he was in the top 10 fighters of all time because of the person he was and the things he did. Put it this way if Ali didnt do the things he did outside the ring he wouldnt be considered such an inspirational figure inside the ring. Marciano would have beaten Ali in his prime no doubt, you put him up against people like Holmes maybe not Foreman probably not, Frazier he would beat no problem, Johnson and Lewis would have had some trouble with Marciano. I say this because of their fighting styles, styles make fights and Ali just happened to have a style that big men couldnt handle but if you watch him against Frazier he had some trouble in all 3 matches he wasnt the usual dominant Ali we were all used to seeing. Now if you put him up against someone stronger and more relentless in heart and fighting such as Marciano he would have had a real problem like he did Frazier.

rocco just shut your mouth, cause your talking **** right now. marciano a slow, weak, unskilled 180lb. cruiserweight will not have a chance against a big, strong, fast 215lb. man. the fact that you said marciano would beat him with ease makes you either the biggest idiot or the biggest racist! frazier has boxing skills and is quick. marciano is slow and unskilled. frazier is lightyears better than marciano ever was. but he still barely beat a past prime ali once, and couldn't beat him again, but yet a short slow little 180lb. man would "no doubt" beat ali in his prime? go do some boxing research, then come and argue, cause you obviously don't know ****.

rocco1252
03-20-2006, 06:55 PM
rocco just shut your mouth, cause your talking **** right now. marciano a slow, weak, unskilled 180lb. cruiserweight will not have a chance against a big, strong, fast 215lb. man. the fact that you said marciano would beat him with ease makes you either the biggest idiot or the biggest racist! frazier has boxing skills and is quick. marciano is slow and unskilled. frazier is lightyears better than marciano ever was. but he still barely beat a past prime ali once, and couldn't beat him again, but yet a short slow little 180lb. man would "no doubt" beat ali in his prime? go do some boxing research, then come and argue, cause you obviously don't know ****.
how many of ali's fights have you seen honestly?? because you cant be older than 17 by reading your posts, and it always seems that you are on here after school hours.

I have been involved with boxing for over 8 years kid and have been following it for 15 or more, so before you go basing your judgements on skin color like you always seem to just quiet down before you get embarrassed. First off Marciano would not have gotten tired like Foreman did, Second the reason why Frazier couldnt beat Ali during their second and third fights is because he wasnt Marciano, didnt have the power, the heart or the chin that Marciano did.

Marciano may have been 180 lbs but the best fighters of that era such as Louis, Walcott, and Charles all claimed they have never been hit by anything as hard as Marciano and these are people who fought the greats just like Marciano did and they even fought more of them. Marciano's power would have done wonders to the chin of Ali as well as any of the top heavyweights of any era. Dont get me wrong I love Ali always have but he wasnt a Marciano, most of what Ali is made out to be is because of the variety of things he had done inside and outside of the ring.

Ali was great but he wouldnt have been able to handle Marciano no way no how, for being 215 yeah he was bigger but not more powerful, he was faster but didnt have as much heart, he was more skilled but didnt have the tenacity in the ring like Marciano who would have kept coming foward no matter how many times he was hit. And before you go saying Marciano was dropped by Walcott another blown up Cruiser I'll just have you know he was up in a matter of 4 second he got hit got up and still managed to win the fight it was more of a matter of balance which Marciano was flat footed so he was always off balance but thats why he had so much power. Marciano was down a total of 6 seconds in his career and still managed to come back and win despite being hit of balance, on balance, any balance it didnt matter he won.

So go back to your Rihanna appreciation thread and continue talking to yourself and posting pictures of someone who you will never see or get a chance with. Have a good day!

Dempsey 1919
03-20-2006, 07:17 PM
how many of ali's fights have you seen honestly?? because you cant be older than 17 by reading your posts, and it always seems that you are on here after school hours.

I have been involved with boxing for over 8 years kid and have been following it for 15 or more, so before you go basing your judgements on skin color like you always seem to just quiet down before you get embarrassed. First off Marciano would not have gotten tired like Foreman did, Second the reason why Frazier couldnt beat Ali during their second and third fights is because he wasnt Marciano, didnt have the power, the heart or the chin that Marciano did.

Marciano may have been 180 lbs but the best fighters of that era such as Louis, Walcott, and Charles all claimed they have never been hit by anything as hard as Marciano and these are people who fought the greats just like Marciano did and they even fought more of them. Marciano's power would have done wonders to the chin of Ali as well as any of the top heavyweights of any era. Dont get me wrong I love Ali always have but he wasnt a Marciano, most of what Ali is made out to be is because of the variety of things he had done inside and outside of the ring.

Ali was great but he wouldnt have been able to handle Marciano no way no how, for being 215 yeah he was bigger but not more powerful, he was faster but didnt have as much heart, he was more skilled but didnt have the tenacity in the ring like Marciano who would have kept coming foward no matter how many times he was hit. And before you go saying Marciano was dropped by Walcott another blown up Cruiser I'll just have you know he was up in a matter of 4 second he got hit got up and still managed to win the fight it was more of a matter of balance which Marciano was flat footed so he was always off balance but thats why he had so much power. Marciano was down a total of 6 seconds in his career and still managed to come back and win despite being hit of balance, on balance, any balance it didnt matter he won.

So go back to your Rihanna appreciation thread and continue talking to yourself and posting pictures of someone who you will never see or get a chance with. Have a good day!

#1 i've seen like 50 of ali's fights, alright.

and marciano is overrated. i never bring race into my own opinions about how good fighters are, but apparently alot of ya'll do. jack dempsey is one of my favorite fighters and he is white. so before you go running your mouth about me being racist, read my other posts before you make slanted judgements.

"the reason why Frazier couldnt beat Ali during their second and third fights is because he wasnt Marciano, didnt have the power, the heart or the chin that Marciano did" are you serious? frazier is 205 and marciano is like 185, and frazier proved he could beat skilled guys alot bigger and taller than him, and marciano hasn't, but yet marciano is better? frazier is faster, stronger, more powerful, better chin, and heart is about the same. frazier was never dropped with one punch by a 40+ year old 5'9" middleweight, marciano was. and whether he was off-balanced or not, the point is a middleweight dropped him, so if marciano has the cast-iron chin you say he has then even when off-balanced, moore shouldn't have been able to put him on the canvas.

and who in the **** did louis, walcott, and charles fight anyway. if they fought foreman or liston, they all would have been ko'd in round one, with the exception of joe louis.

what "wonders" would marciano do to ali's chin? liston, foreman, shavers, frazier, and even lyle punches harder than marciano, but besides frazier, they could put him down and most of them couldn't even hurt him, so what makes you think marciano would seriously hurt ali?

ali was one of the strongest hw's of all time. no doubt in the clenches he would have marciano flying all-over the ring from post to post. ali probably had just as much heart as marciano. what else would make him fight with a broken jaw and pull off that performance in thrilla? :rolleyes:

whether marciano got up or not, the point is he shouldn't have been down in the first place. ali would school him, then knock the bum out.

and i'm sure i have a better chance with rihanna than you! :rolleyes:

SuzieQ49
03-20-2006, 09:40 PM
first of all let me say butterfly you need to study marciano more closely on film.

marciano may not have been a polished boxer, but his style was VERY effective and he was far more skilled than u think.


marcianos liek carlos monzon. you watch them on film at first and you are not impressed. then u watch them again and watch them very closely and its then that you realize just how effective THERE OWN style was.


marciano used his style to perfection. he was extremely effective.





also marciano was not 180lb. he was in the high 180s. he was also immensley strong, one of the stronger heavyweight champs of all time. marciano was defintley stronger frazier



marcianos strength is the most underated thing about marciano. people make a big deal about his stamina, but they forget how strong he was.

SuzieQ49
03-20-2006, 09:47 PM
marciano a slow, weak, unskilled 180lb. cruiserweight will not have a chance against a big, strong, fast 215lb. man.


ur right,


i mean its not like 3 guys who floored ali weighed 205lb or less

-or that a 180lb man nearly knocked out ali


- or that ali nearly lost on points to a light-H named doug jones.


i find it funny how these guys have a chance, but not a all time great fighter like rocky marciano.





funny how you call marciano "weak." this is a clear statement you know nothing about marciano. marciano was incredibly strong.

archie moore who fought many men over 220lb called marciano "far and away the strongest man i ever fought and believe me i met some tough ones"

charles who also faced many big heavies called "marciano the strongest man i ever fought"

almost every fighter who fought rocky testified on rockys amazing strength.


of course butterfly, you know more about marcianos strength thaan these guys. i mean you were in the ring with marciano werent you?

SuzieQ49
03-20-2006, 10:05 PM
Marciano may have been 180 lbs


marciano was not 180lb. would u like it if i called ali 200lb?





frazier is 205 and marciano is like 185, and frazier proved he could beat skilled guys alot bigger and taller than him, and marciano hasn't, but yet marciano is better? frazier is faster, stronger, more powerful, better chin, and heart is about the same. frazier was never dropped with one punch by a 40+ year old 5'9" middleweight, marciano was.


marciano is stronger than frazier. though marciano is only 185lb, he trained himself down from well over 200lb to 185lb. frazier is a little beefy around the midsection, if he went through marcianos training camp, he would defintley be under 200lb.



and frazier proved he could beat skilled guys alot bigger and taller than him, and marciano hasn't, but yet marciano is better?



wut bigger guys besides ali? buster mathis? joe bugner?



marciano shouldnt be critisized for this reason, because there was no big skilled guy like ali around for marciano to fight.

- still marciano fought 6'2 214lb joe louis who though far past his prime, was still a formidable fighter and it took a very good fighter to beat him even at that stage of his career.


frazier is faster, stronger, more powerful, better chin, and heart is about the same.

frazier is NOT stronger, and is not more powerful. also i would give the edge in chin to marciano.

i favor marciano as the greater puncher because marciano had the better two fisted KO power.




frazier was never dropped with one punch by a 40+ year old 5'9" middleweight


you mean a 38 year old 5'11 185lb fighter who had won 45 of his last 46 fights and has the most knockouts of all time? did you not forget moore was coming off two victories over 6'3 210lb nino valdes and a knockout victory over 6'2 220lb bob baker, BOTH TOP CONTENDERS.

- also it was a flash knockdown, marciano was up at 2. that punch moore hit marciano with would have knocked out most other heavyweights.


moore was 5'11, NOT 5'9.


mooore couldnt punch?


curtis hatchetman Sheppard who was in with just about every top heavyweight of the '40s, including big, hard-hitting contenders like Lee Q. Murray and Lem Franklin, and still alled Moore the hardest hitter he ever faced. Tiger Ted Lowry, who fought nearly every top heavyweight of the late '40s through mid '50s, said the same thing.










butterfly,


did you not forget frazier was floored by a 4-1 195lb fighter?

was marciano ever floored by a fighter like that?


frazier was also floored twice and nearly stopped by oscar bonavena. others like manuel ramos, and ron stander hurt frazier badly.


marciano was floored just 2x in his career, BOTH WERE FLASH KNOCKDOWNS WHERE MARCIANO WAS UP AT 2.

the only guys who put rocky down were also very good punchers.

walcott rated 66th in RINGS TOP 100 GREATEST PUNCHERS OF ALL TIME.

moore rated 4th in RINGS top 100 GREATEST PUNCHERS OF ALL TIME.





marciano wasnt even floored until his 44th bout. in comparison, frazier was floored in just his 5th career bout.

Dempsey 1919
03-21-2006, 02:48 AM
ur right,


i mean its not like 3 guys who floored ali weighed 205lb or less

-or that a 180lb man nearly knocked out ali


- or that ali nearly lost on points to a light-H named doug jones.


i find it funny how these guys have a chance, but not a all time great fighter like rocky marciano.





funny how you call marciano "weak." this is a clear statement you know nothing about marciano. marciano was incredibly strong.

archie moore who fought many men over 220lb called marciano "far and away the strongest man i ever fought and believe me i met some tough ones"

charles who also faced many big heavies called "marciano the strongest man i ever fought"

almost every fighter who fought rocky testified on rockys amazing strength.


of course butterfly, you know more about marcianos strength thaan these guys. i mean you were in the ring with marciano werent you?

ali weighed like 180+ when he fought banks, and a little over 200 when he fought cooper. he wasn't in his prime in those fights. and frazier just wore down a slower, overconfident, and undertrained ali, that's all. and ali is definetely stronger than marciano.

SuzieQ49
03-21-2006, 04:25 AM
and a little over 200 when he fought cooper. he wasn't in his prime in those fights


ali was in his prime vs cooper. it was the fight before ali beat liston.



ali was just 206lb vs liston, was he not in his prime for that fight?


ali was just 203lb vss kerl midlenbergar in 1966, was he not in his prime for that fight?

hellfire508
03-21-2006, 07:13 AM
Wasn't Ali 210 against Liston?

hellfire508
03-21-2006, 07:14 AM
And Q, I have to disagree on the notion that Ali was prime vs. Cooper. He was still very much developing. I don't even think he was prime against Liston. It was one of his most impressive performances, however it wasn't prime in my eyes. It was kind of like where Louis was when Schmelling beat him. Still developing, still green, feeling invincible.

hellfire508
03-21-2006, 07:21 AM
Butterfly - stop using weight as an argument, it has no substance. Marciano would give Ali a run for his money.

Rocco - Ali couldn't handle Marciano, "no way, no how"? Are you kidding? That is just as bad as saying Marciano would have absolutely no chance against Ali. Their styles would make an amazing fight, a very close fight. Speed was the key to beat Marciano, pressure was the key to beat Ali. Get the drift?

Heckler
03-21-2006, 07:56 AM
ali was in his prime vs cooper. it was the fight before ali beat liston.



ali was just 206lb vs liston, was he not in his prime for that fight?


ali was just 203lb vss kerl midlenbergar in 1966, was he not in his prime for that fight?

Ali was not in his prime against Cooper. His physical maturity come around 66-67 and this is quite apparent by merely looking at photos. And the fact that dundee noted this.

Heckler
03-21-2006, 07:58 AM
Ali couldn't handle Marciano? yet he managed to handle Frazier twice who applied more pressure and fought at a faster pace?

Da Iceman
03-21-2006, 08:03 AM
Ali couldn't handle Marciano? yet he managed to handle Frazier twice who applied more pressure and fought at a faster pace?
they both applied the same amount of pressure, marciano's fights seem slower because they always clinched him.

Heckler
03-21-2006, 08:12 AM
From what ive seen i definately think Frazier applied a greater level of pressure. He would essentially rush at his opponents, in particular Ali. Marciano's crouching agression was a little slower, however the man never stopped throwing punches.

Da Iceman
03-21-2006, 08:20 AM
it only looks diffrent because his opponets always clinched him when he got close

Frazier's 15th round
03-21-2006, 08:47 AM
in comparison, frazier was floored in just his 5th career bout.

It was his second career fight, against Mike Bruce.

Dempsey 1919
03-21-2006, 02:00 PM
ali was in his prime vs cooper. it was the fight before ali beat liston.



ali was just 206lb vs liston, was he not in his prime for that fight?


ali was just 203lb vss kerl midlenbergar in 1966, was he not in his prime for that fight?

how could you be in your prime at 21yrs. of age? ali looked like a skinny little high school boy in that fight. and ali's first fight with liston wasn't his prime either. his prime was either with williams or with folley.

sure ali was 206 against liston, but only because he trained real hard. if you look at ali vs. liston the second time, and then ali vs. cooper the first time, ali against liston looked much bigger in size, despite the fact that he weighed less in that fight. ali had like no body fat in that fight, and he certainly didn't look little.

and you probably looked at boxrec for ali's weight against milden berger, cause no way he weighed that little. in fact i remember the announcer saying something like 212 1/2lb. or something like that against mildenberger.

Yaman
03-21-2006, 02:09 PM
[QUOTE=butterfly1964]how could you be in your prime at 21yrs. of age?QUOTE]

Look at Tyson. Prime at 20.

Yogi
03-21-2006, 02:18 PM
and ali's first fight with liston wasn't his prime either. his prime was either with williams or with folley.

I'd say Ali was in his prime versus Liston and even though he didn't quite have the upperbody (specifically in the shoulders) mass that he did against Williams, for example, with these eyes of mine he does appear to be slightly quicker of hand & foot against Sonny.

With consideration given to the quality of his opponent he was in against, the first fight with Liston just may have been the best version of Ali that I've seen.

Dempsey 1919
03-21-2006, 02:21 PM
I'd say Ali was in his prime versus Liston and even though he didn't quite have the upperbody (specifically in the shoulders) mass that he did against Williams, for example, with these eyes of mine he does appear to be slightly quicker of hand & foot against Sonny.

With consideration given to the quality of his opponent he was in against, the first fight with Liston just may have been the best version of Ali that I've seen.

well, dundee says it's with folley.

Dempsey 1919
03-21-2006, 02:22 PM
Look at Tyson. Prime at 20.

yeah, but if tyson didn't have those problems, then he would be better at lets say, 27.

Yaman
03-21-2006, 02:40 PM
yeah, but if tyson didn't have those problems, then he would be better at lets say, 27.

I think Ali could have been even better if he didn't loose those 3 years. Its a dam shame what they did to him.

Dempsey 1919
03-21-2006, 02:43 PM
I think Ali could have been even better if he didn't loose those 3 years. Its a dam shame what they did to him.

definetely, he would be one scary mofo. he would have had more power, strength, accuracy, combined with the great speed he already had, maaan, no way he would lose to frazier, norton or spinks.

Yogi
03-21-2006, 02:50 PM
well, dundee says it's with folley.

Yeah well, see the thing is...I ain't Dundee, and have the ability to judge with my own eyes.

Dempsey 1919
03-21-2006, 02:52 PM
Yeah well, see the thing is...I ain't Dundee, and have the ability to judge with my own eyes.

well, dundee worked with ali for 21 years, so (no offense), but i would rather believe the guy that trained him and know exactly what his strengths and weaknesses were, and the way he progressed in certain fights from others, etc., than you.

Easy-E
03-21-2006, 03:22 PM
well, dundee worked with ali for 21 years, so (no offense), but i would rather believe the guy that trained him and know exactly what his strengths and weaknesses were, and the way he progressed in certain fights from others, etc., than you.

hahaha no kidding....i think ill take angelo's word here

Yogi
03-21-2006, 03:25 PM
well, dundee worked with ali for 21 years, so (no offense), but i would rather believe the guy that trained him and know exactly what his strengths and weaknesses were, and the way he progressed in certain fights from others, etc., than you.

You don't have to believe one guy or the other, Butterfly.

I'm sure you have in your possession or have seen your share of Ali's fights from the 60's, and therefore should be able to come up with your own personal opinion as to Ali's best performance(s) from that time.

I trust my own opinion over what Dundee has to say, as well you should...And in my own personal opinion the Ali of the first Liston fight just may have been the best version of Ali that I've seen from that decade, especially when consideration is given to the quality of opposition he was up against.

Dempsey 1919
03-21-2006, 03:34 PM
You don't have to believe one guy or the other, Butterfly.

I'm sure you have in your possession or have seen your share of Ali's fights from the 60's, and therefore should be able to come up with your own personal opinion as to Ali's best performance(s) from that time.

I trust my own opinion over what Dundee has to say, as well you should...And in my own personal opinion the Ali of the first Liston fight just may have been the best version of Ali that I've seen from that decade, especially when consideration is given to the quality of opposition he was up against.

that was only because liston was slow and undertrained. the shots that ali hit folley with were so fast that honestly i had to rewing the tape several times just to see the exact punches that hit him.

Yogi
03-21-2006, 03:45 PM
that was only because liston was slow and undertrained. the shots that ali hit folley with were so fast that honestly i had to rewing the tape several times just to see the exact punches that hit him.

The "undertrained" version of Liston that Ali fought was still better than the past their primes version of Williams & Folley that faced Ali, and in the case of the literally & figuratively shot Williams MUCH better.

But hey, Butterfly...Dundee was under Charley Goldman's tutelage in New York, and had followed & watched Goldman's charge, Rocky Marciano, on numerous occasions while sitting at ringside (starting with Marciano's fourth pro fight). Dundee's also on record stating that he considers Marciano as the third greatest Heavyweight of all-time, and also one of the ten greatest p4p fighters in history...

Do you agree with his thoughts on that also, seeing as how, by your own logic, he was in a much better position to judge Marciano's talents than you were/are?

Or are you going to trust your own personal opinion of Marciano?

Dempsey 1919
03-21-2006, 03:49 PM
The "undertrained" version of Liston that Ali fought was still better than the past their primes version of Williams & Folley that faced Ali, and in the case of the literally & figuratively shot Williams MUCH better.

But hey, Butterfly...Dundee was under Charley Goldman's tutelage in New York, and had followed & watched Goldman's charge, Rocky Marciano, on numerous occasions while sitting at ringside (starting with Marciano's fourth pro fight). Dundee's also on record stating that he considers Marciano as the third greatest Heavyweight of all-time, and also one of the ten greatest p4p fighters in history...

Do you agree with his thoughts on that also, seeing as how, by your own logic, he was in a much better position to judge Marciano's talents than you were/are?

Or are you going to trust your own personal opinion of Marciano?

but dundee didn't work with foreman, louis, liston, dempsey, and tyson, so he wouldn't really know how good these guy's were compared to marciano. but in the case of ali's prime, dundee had all the eye-witness info he needed to make a good judgement. :cool:

Southpaw Stinger
03-21-2006, 03:51 PM
but dundee didn't work with foreman

Wasn't Dundee Foremans trainer during George's comeback.

Dempsey 1919
03-21-2006, 03:53 PM
Wasn't Dundee Foremans trainer during George's comeback.

i meant the earlier foreman.

Yogi
03-21-2006, 04:04 PM
but dundee didn't work with foreman, louis, liston, dempsey, and tyson, so he wouldn't really know how good these guy's were compared to marciano. but in the case of ali's prime, dundee had all the eye-witness info he needed to make a good judgement. :cool:

He worked with Foreman some during Big George's comeback and for the record his Dundee's all-time top ten at Heavyweight;

1. Muhammad Ali
2. Joe Louis
3. Rocky Marciano
4. Sonny Liston
5. George Foreman ("I'm going to sound bias because I worked with him when he came back to boxing")
6. Larry Holmes
7. Joe Frazier
8. Jack Dempsey
9. Max Schmeling
10. James Braddock

"but in the case of ali's prime, dundee had all the eye-witness info he needed to make a good judgement."

And so do I, as we have this wonderful thing that's been around for a while called videotape, which then means that nowadays we can watch every fight from Ali's prime in the 60's, and therefore make our own personal judgement as to what we thought was Ali's most impressive performance(s) according to what we see with our own two eyes.

Don't get me wrong, because Ali was very impressive against Folley and Williams, for sure, and I'm not saying he wasn't.

Dempsey 1919
03-21-2006, 04:06 PM
He worked with Foreman some during Big George's comeback and for the record his Dundee's all-time top ten at Heavyweight;

1. Muhammad Ali
2. Joe Louis
3. Rocky Marciano
4. Sonny Liston
5. George Foreman ("I'm going to sound bias because I worked with him when he came back to boxing")
6. Larry Holmes
7. Joe Frazier
8. Jack Dempsey
9. Max Schmeling
10. James Braddock

"but in the case of ali's prime, dundee had all the eye-witness info he needed to make a good judgement."

And so do I, as we have this wonderful thing that's been around for a while called videotape, which then means that nowadays we can watch every fight from Ali's prime in the 60's, and therefore make our own personal judgement as to what we thought was Ali's most impressive performance(s) according to what we see with our own two eyes.

Don't get me wrong, because Ali was very impressive against Folley and Williams, for sure, and I'm not saying he wasn't.

but did you watch ali train in the gym for 21 years? no!

Yogi
03-21-2006, 04:10 PM
but did you watch ali train in the gym for 21 years? no!

And what does training have to do with what we SEE from actual fight footage that we can judge for ourselves?

Dempsey 1919
03-21-2006, 04:12 PM
And what does training have to do with what we SEE from actual fight footage that we can judge for ourselves?

because seeing ali for that long made dundee become able to see things that me and you wouldn't about ali's game.

Yogi
03-21-2006, 04:17 PM
because seeing ali for that long made dundee become able to see things that me and you wouldn't about ali's game.

That's in training, though.

And what you seem to have trouble grasping is we can all watch Ali during that time and come up with what we view as his most impressive performance(s) by what WE actually SEE from those fights.

P.S. When did you think Ali reached physical maturity as a fighter, Butterfly...in your own opinion?

Southpaw Stinger
03-21-2006, 04:19 PM
1. Muhammad Ali
2. Joe Louis
3. Rocky Marciano
4. Sonny Liston
5. George Foreman ("I'm going to sound bias because I worked with him when he came back to boxing")
6. Larry Holmes
7. Joe Frazier
8. Jack Dempsey
9. Max Schmeling
10. James Braddock

I'd never have put Braddock in the top 10. I can't beleive Dundee put Marciano above Foreman + Liston. Still, we all have different tastes.

Dempsey 1919
03-21-2006, 04:21 PM
That's in training, though.

And what you seem to have trouble grasping is we can all watch Ali during that time and come up with what we view as his most impressive performance(s) by what WE actually SEE from those fights.

P.S. When did you think Ali reached physical maturity as a fighter, Butterfly...in your own opinion?

well, either williams or folley was IMO his best performance, but ali never actually reached physical maturity.

Yogi
03-21-2006, 04:30 PM
but ali never actually reached physical maturity.

Well, Dundee disagrees with you then;

"I wanted a couple more bouts and a little more time for Cassius to reach physical maturity."

That quote from Dundee spoke of the Ali that fought Doug Jones in early 1963, but this following quote speaks of the Ali going into the first Liston fight;

"Cassius was big and strong, weighing in around 210 pounds. He could move, had a great jab and a good right cross. I really wasn't worried because Cassius had matured physically. Let Liston worry."

Dempsey 1919
03-21-2006, 04:32 PM
Well, Dundee disagrees with you then;

"I wanted a couple more bouts and a little more time for Cassius to reach physical maturity."

That quote from Dundee spoke of the Ali that fought Doug Jones in early 1963, but this following quote speaks of the Ali going into the first Liston fight;

"Cassius was big and strong, weighing in around 210 pounds. He could move, had a great jab and a good right cross. I really wasn't worried because Cassius had matured physically. Let Liston worry."

well, then maybe dundee didn't know that ali would mature even more.

Southpaw Stinger
03-21-2006, 04:32 PM
Although Dundee said that Ali had his best 3 years banned from boxing and he also said that he would have destroyed everyone in his path.

Dempsey 1919
03-21-2006, 04:33 PM
Although Dundee said that Ali had his best 3 years banned from boxing and he also said that he would have destroyed everyone in his path.

exactly. including frazier.

Yaman
03-21-2006, 04:34 PM
Well, Dundee disagrees with you then;

"I wanted a couple more bouts and a little more time for Cassius to reach physical maturity."

That quote from Dundee spoke of the Ali that fought Doug Jones in early 1963, but this following quote speaks of the Ali going into the first Liston fight;

"Cassius was big and strong, weighing in around 210 pounds. He could move, had a great jab and a good right cross. I really wasn't worried because Cassius had matured physically. Let Liston worry."

If thats true than you're probably right about ALi being matured physically.

Butterfly, you should be happy about that. It would be F'd up if Ali never became the fighter he really was.

Yogi
03-21-2006, 04:35 PM
well, then maybe dundee didn't know that ali would mature even more.

Those words were from Dundee were from the 80's, Butterfly, so at that time he would obviously have hindsight to benefit him if he so desired.

K-DOGG
03-21-2006, 04:37 PM
I didn't write this article, so don't get mad at me. But the article is absolutely correct. Ali is a bum.

“Float Like a butterfly, sting like a flea many bums did whip Muhammad Ali.”

Lets review Ali’s record and briefly the career records of his opponents.

Trevor Berbick (50-11-1). Berbick had a decent record but lost practically every time he stepped up in competition. He was starched in one round by Bernardo Mercardo before beating Ali. Berbick was also beaten by less than stellar competition such as S.T. Gordon and Jimmy Thunder, but Ali could not beat him. Berbick made Ali look slow and lethargic. Where some all time greats all had their share of journeyman that they faced, they beat them. Ali lost to a number of journeyman type fighters. At a similar age as Ali in this fight, Ray Robinson who was Ali’s hero was still beating fighters of this caliber. At age 39 Robinson lost a highly disputed draw to Gene Fullmer in a title fight. Ali lacked the greatness to accomplish the same feat. It was a clear victory over the so called “Greatest.” Berbick retired him.

Larry Holmes (69-6) The best fighter Ali ever faced. What happened? At an age where Lennox Lewis was beating Vitaly Klitschko (32-1), Ali was completely outclassed and dominated failing to win a single round while being stopped by a fighter who could do everything he could do better. Did any heavyweight champion ever look so worthless in a title fight as Ali did against Holmes? Joe Louis, who had only 4 fights in the previous 8 years, at least won some rounds and landed some punches against Ezzard Charles and was competitive at a similar age against Rocky Marciano swelling his eye with his jab and made a fight of it. But Ali, who weighed only a single pound more for this fight then he did for Foreman a few years earlier, could not win a single round against Holmes. The NY Times reported, “In 10 rounds, he (Ali) landed fewer than 10 solid punches.” Ali simply did not have the ability to deal with a bigger, stronger, superior technical fighter with a better jab.

It should be noted that Holmes also feasted on a lot of inferior competition. Look at some of the careers of his title defense opponents; Ossie Ocasio (23-13), Mike Weaver (41-18), Lorenzo Zanon (27-6-3 ko’d 5 times in 36 fights), Scott LeDoux (33-13-4), Lucien Rodriguez (39-12-1), and Renaldo Snipes (39-8) nearly knocked Holmes out with one punch. Unlike Joe Louis and Rocky Marciano who defended against seasoned experienced veterans Holmes (and Ali too as well shall see) fought mostly green, inexperienced amateurs that made them look better than they were and sometimes those kids made them look bad! Holmes defended against such callow opposition as Tim Witherspoon (15 fights), Leon Spinks (14 fights), Ossie Ocasio (13 fights), David Bey (14 fights), Bonecrusher Smith (15 fights), Carl Williams (16 fights), and Marvis Frazier who had only 10 pro fights! How such a fighter could be considered great beating a slew of inexperienced amateurs defies intelligent reasoning. Yet this same fighter beat Ali 10-0 in rounds and made him quit on his stool.

Leon Spinks (26-17). The worse heavyweight champion ever. He only won the title because he beat an over-rated Muhammad Ali. This bum Spinks had only 7 pro fights at the time and DIDN’T WIN all of those. Spinks was such a huge underdog that Las Vegas bookies would not give odds on the fight. Yet he gave Ali an ass whipping. He swarmed over him and gave him no room to breathe and won easily proving Ali was not close to “The Greatest.” Ali couldn’t deal with real pressure from a fighter who was not fit to be on Joe Louis “bum of the month club.” Spinks was knocked out 9 times in his career more than either Charles or Walcott and he had half as many fights. He was even knocked out by some guy named John Carlo in one round who was in his pro debut. Yet Ali could not put this hapless china chinned chump down in 30 rounds of fighting in 2 fights?

There is more to the story. Some will no doubt try to say Ali was old, but he had just turned 36 the month before. To get more perspective on the age issue, consider that at 36 years of age, Larry Holmes stopped David Bey (6’3”, 233 lbs), and defeated Carl Williams (6’4”, 215 lbs), in back-to-back fights. (Note this is quoting Revolver and he is error Holmes was born in ‘49 both fights were before his birthday in Nov. of ‘85 so he was 35. Math, along with other subjects such as logic, must not one be of Revolver’s strong points) And just shy of his 38th birthday, Lennox Lewis as mentioned previously, beat Vitaly Klitschko (6’7” 248 lbs) who was the number one rated contender. It was Lewis’ third fight since turning 36. His two previous opponents were Hasim Rahman (236 lbs, 35-2) and Mike Tyson (234 lbs, 49-3). He won both of those fights by knockout. But Ali could not defeat an amateur opponent who weighed less than 200 pounds and had only 7 pro fights and not all of those were wins? Losing to a green kid like Spinks proves how truly over-rated and over-hyped Muhammad Ali is to this day.

Spinks who at 6”1 ˝” and a 76” reach beat Ali with a simple plan. Spinks used aggression, jabs and pressure to force Ali to the corners and outwork him. The NY Times reported, “Ali danced and jabbed, danced and jabbed and took Spinks shots in an apparent effort to let the St. Louisian, who at 197 ˝ pounds was outweighed by 17 pounds, expend his energy.” But it was to no avail against an inferior challenger determined enough to beat him.

Of course people will write the loss off as an old, out-of-shape Ali losing to a young, hungry although completely inexperienced opponent. But an examination of Ali’s career reveals few significant wins, a number of defeats, several close calls where he was almost knocked out, many controversial wins, and alleged fixed fights, as well as a fight where he was completely dominated (not winning a single round) and stopped by a fighter who is considered his inferior to this day by those who are blinded by their infatuation for this over-rated, over-hyped media phenom. However, a clear-eyed, realistic boxing historian sees Ali for the phony that he was.

Before moving on, I must pause and summarize what we have thus far learned: Ali lost three of the three fights discussed so far! He was clearly beaten by Trevor Berbick (a journeyman), completely dominated by Holmes who proved a better technician could not only defeat him, but utterly dominate him Ali failing to win a single round or even land a significant punch in the entire fight, and he was beaten and battered by an amateur with less than 7 pro fights and not all of those wins!

Earnie Shavers (73-14). Shavers was one of the more experienced opponents that Ali fought, but he was a one-dimensional raw slugger with no chin and few if any real boxing skills. He had a padded record of 54-5-1 at the time. He was knocked out 7 times in his career and lost 14 times. He made his reputation by knocking out nothing but tomato cans. He lost to everyone he fought who could box even a little. His losses include such stellar names as Stan Johnson, Ron Stander, Bob Stallings, Walter Santemore, George Chaplin (some relation to Charlie I think), and Brian Yates. He also lost to every good fighter he faced including Jerry Quarry and Ron Lyle. Hell, even the totally skill-less Tex Cobb beat him clearly. Ali proved that he couldn’t break an egg by failing to knock out this glass-jawed winging Neanderthal. Ali was hurt several times in this fight, staggered and rubbery legged but his opponent a one punch at time over-rated shoemaker could not finish the job that a real fighter would.

Alfredo Evangelista (62-13), a typical talent-less European fighter with no skills. This bum twice lost to Lorenzo Zanon (27-9-3 with only 9 ko’s). In fact his last fight was a loss to Zanon. Evangelista coming in to face Ali had never before been beyond 8 rounds. The NY Times reported that Evangelista looked “soft” at the weigh in and didn’t look like a real fighter. ONCE AGAIN we see that Ali prefers to defend his title against unproven inexperienced opposition or talentless one-dimensional punchers rather than boxers of any real skill who always troubled him.

Evangelista lost to every notable heavyweight he fought. He was knocked out by none other than amateur Leon Spinks in only 5 rounds and was also starched in 2 by Ali imitator Greg Page. Anders Eklund (19-5) also knocked him out. This worthless pile of crap made Ali look like a fool. Although Ali clearly won the Times wrote that Ali “did not look sharp” in this fight.

Are you F'in kidding me? ARE YOU F'IN KIDDING ME??!! THAT'S IT??!! THAT'S ALL YOU GOT??!!

Okay, I haven't read the other posts on here so I'll keep this relatively brief, for I figure I'm retreading the over the mudhole that has already been stomped in the appropriate orfice.

You just took Ali's last six fights...or your favorite article did....and you're trying to convince people with an IQ over that of Forrest Gump that the Berbick, Holmes, Spinks, Shavers, and Evangelista fights prove that Ali was a bum?

THAT IS THE SADDEST, MOST IGNORANT, UNEDUCATED, ALI-KICKED-MY-HERO'S-ASS-AND-I'LL-NEVER-FORGIVE-HIM BULL**** I'VE EVER READ!!!

If you actually think taking a man's final days, after he's long shot, and summarizing his career based on those fights is just and accurate and top-notch analyzing.......THEN I'VE GOT SOME OCEAN FRONT PROPERTY IN ARIZONA WITH YOUR NAME ON IT.

THAT IS, COLLECTIVELY, THE SADDEST BUNCH OF **** I'VE EVER READ!!

Congratulations for breaking the record previously held by the McCarthy Hearings.


What ignorant rubbish.

Yogi
03-21-2006, 04:42 PM
Okay, I haven't read the other posts on here

Then you should have because you would've quickly learned the reasoning behind the "article"...Could've saved yourself some unneccesary typing, as well.

supaduck
03-21-2006, 04:43 PM
If there's one thing about Ali I always agree with it's that if he hadn't had the 3 year layoff, Frazier and (70s) Foreman would never have been champions and Ali would probably have retired undefeated or with 1 loss (he'd have achieved enough and retired).

K-DOGG
03-21-2006, 04:43 PM
Then you should have because you would've quickly learned the reasoning behind the "article"...Could've saved yourself some unneccesary typing, as well.

Fair enough; but the article itself is insulting.

Yogi
03-21-2006, 04:47 PM
Fair enough; but the article itself is insulting.

It was insulting, but it was only meant to show how overly easy it is for someone to criticize a fighter's resume.

K-DOGG
03-21-2006, 04:51 PM
I understand the reasoning, for it is not a new argument. I've had similar duels over this topic with other posters and have no intention of re-engaging in a pointless, biased, flawed, and overall ignorant argument.

Did Ali face some lesst than top-notch competition? Yes. Did Holmes? Yes again. How about Frazier? Yup...and was bounced 6 times by the caveman swinging fighter with the padded record, aka Formen.

A fighter's greatness should be judged in perspective, not taken out of context...and this argument as presented in the article and follow up posts couldn't be more out of context if it were used as a foundation for why party A has more rights to land than party B in a Middle East Peace Summit on the Gaza strip.

It is a joke.

K-DOGG
03-21-2006, 04:54 PM
It was insulting, but it was only meant to show how overly easy it is for someone to criticize a fighter's resume.


Okay, got it. I just don't find such exercises fruitful. I'm not deifying Ali, he was flawed; but I'd defend Leon Spinks if I thought he was being cast in a false light.

Yogi
03-21-2006, 05:01 PM
I'd defend Leon Spinks if I thought he was being cast in a false light.

So would I actually, even though I would have him right near the bottom of a ranking of the worst/least talented Heavyweight champions of all-time (fun to watch though). But...he WAS the Heavyweight champion of the world and that great accomplishment in and of itself is worthy of plenty of praise.

"Bums" don't reach that elite level no matter what anyone says.

K-DOGG
03-21-2006, 05:07 PM
"Bums" don't reach that elite level no matter what anyone says.

With That, I couldn't agree more.

SuzieQ49
03-21-2006, 06:51 PM
in 1966


ali weighed in at 201lb vs henry cooper in a title defense

ali weighed in at 204lb vs karl mildenberger in a title defense



ali in his prime was weighing in under 205lb


- it appears dundee had ali coming in too light for these fights

Dempsey 1919
03-21-2006, 07:18 PM
in 1966


ali weighed in at 201lb vs henry cooper in a title defense

ali weighed in at 204lb vs karl mildenberger in a title defense



ali in his prime was weighing in under 205lb


- it appears dundee had ali coming in too light for these fights

where did you get that info from?

joker
03-21-2006, 07:45 PM
he brought a different world to boxing. he made it like wwf with his talk an dpeople either loved or hated him but they wanted to see him.

SuzieQ49
03-21-2006, 08:09 PM
where did you get that info from?


many different sources

Yogi
03-21-2006, 08:14 PM
where did you get that info from?

He might've gotten that info from the Ali/Cooper fight from the May 22nd, 1966 A.P. report which states the following;

"LONDON, May 21 - Cassius Clay registered the lightest weight of his championship career today, 201 pounds, in a carefully produced ceremony about nine hours before defending his title against Henry Cooper at the Arsenol Stadium, Highbury. Cooper, at 188, was also several pounds lighter than expected."

Dempsey 1919
03-21-2006, 08:20 PM
He might've gotten that info from the Ali/Cooper fight from the May 22nd, 1966 A.P. report which states the following;

"LONDON, May 21 - Cassius Clay registered the lightest weight of his championship career today, 201 pounds, in a carefully produced ceremony about nine hours before defending his title against Henry Cooper at the Arsenol Stadium, Highbury. Cooper, at 188, was also several pounds lighter than expected."

well, maybe ali pulled a joe louis-conn, and lost extra weight in order to not look like he's beating up on a much smaller man.

SuzieQ49
03-21-2006, 08:42 PM
well, maybe ali pulled a joe louis-conn, and lost extra weight in order to not look like he's beating up on a much smaller man.


then why did ali weigh in at 203lb when he fought mildenbergar in 1966?

Yogi
03-21-2006, 08:50 PM
well, maybe ali pulled a joe louis-conn, and lost extra weight in order to not look like he's beating up on a much smaller man.

Or maybe, just maybe the employees of Baskin-Robbins were on strike during the mid months of 1966, whereas watermelon was selling for only a penny per pound.

Dempsey 1919
03-21-2006, 11:16 PM
Or maybe, just maybe the employees of Baskin-Robbins were on strike during the mid months of 1966, whereas watermelon was selling for only a penny per pound.

i hope you didn't mean it that way. :mad:

Dempsey 1919
03-21-2006, 11:18 PM
then why did ali weigh in at 203lb when he fought mildenbergar in 1966?

well, didn't mildenberger weight about 190?

and i heard somewhere along the lines of 212 1/2 for ali at that fight.