View Full Version : was dempsey a bum?


Da Iceman
02-24-2006, 08:46 AM
was dempsey a lucky bum that came up in a weak era?

Dempsey 1919
02-24-2006, 09:26 AM
was dempsey a lucky bum that came up in a weak era?

he would still beat your boy marciano. :rolleyes:

TheHoff'sGhost
02-24-2006, 09:27 AM
dempsey a bum? :rolleyes:
yeah and the pope's a jew

Southpaw Stinger
02-24-2006, 10:32 AM
Dempsey was a great fighter.

supaduck
02-24-2006, 11:43 AM
just because he was around long ago, doesn't mean he wasn't good.

Yaman
02-24-2006, 12:40 PM
He didn't fight every fight like he did against Willard.

Kid Achilles
02-24-2006, 03:55 PM
Dempsey was a top ten heavyweight and that is undisputed. I consider him one of the P4P greatest fighters and punchers of all time as he regulary took on much heavier men and beat them convincingly. People who actually understand what the term P4P means would agree with me.

In terms of ability, he had everything but an exceptional defense. His power, handspeed, footspeed, reflexes, chin, and endurance were all very good. His one flaw was he was often thinking of the attack and not about what the opponent was going to do with him. He did not have an extremely defensive mind, but he was no means slow or easy to hit. He just got caught coming in while on the attack. Luckily for him, he also had an amazing ability to recuperate from hard punches and knockdowns and then come back to land concussive blows of his own. He had as much heart as anyone who ever laced them up. I consider him superior to Rocky Marciano and Joe Frazier in talent. He was the best of the great heavyweight swarmers.

As far as accomplishes go, he did not successfully defend his title against great competition compared to other great champions, but aside from Harry Wills, he took on everyone who was available. It should be noted that he completely cleaned up his division prior to winning the title.

All in all I rank Dempsey as the 5th or 6th greatest heavyweight, and that is due to a lackluster (in terms of quality of opposition; not the entertainment value of those fights!) championship reign. On ability alone he is a top three or four heavyweight.

RockyMarcianofan00
02-24-2006, 05:41 PM
he would still beat your boy marciano. :rolleyes:
yep there isn't a man alive that Marciano could beat besides the ones he did beat
Right?

Da Iceman
02-24-2006, 05:58 PM
yep there isn't a man alive that Marciano could beat besides the ones he did beat
Right?
thats right tell em

Da Iceman
02-24-2006, 05:59 PM
he would still beat your boy marciano. :rolleyes:
dempsey didnt even have the skills rocky had, he just swung

Fight_Nightx
02-24-2006, 06:19 PM
dempsey didnt even have the skills rocky had, he just swung

Thats funny. Hope it's a joke.

RockyMarcianofan00
02-24-2006, 06:19 PM
Dempsey had speed and height he is one of my favorite fighters but I still feel Rocky would lay him out in like the 5th-7th ruond
he wasn't a bum and he did have skill but Rocky would beat him :boxing:

Da Iceman
02-25-2006, 10:28 AM
from footage ive seen all he did was swing wildly

Dempsey 1919
02-25-2006, 02:51 PM
dempsey didnt even have the skills rocky had, he just swung

haha, dempsey is unskilled, but marciano is skilled? hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha 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that was the funniest crap i've ever heard, period! marciano had no skilld, whatsoever, period. he just relied on brute strength. marciano was low as hell. if you want to talk about a fighter being slow, then watch marciano fight. even a 137yr. old joe louis made him look stupid before rocky caught up to him. dempsey was lightning fast, almost as fast as mike tyson! and you know tyson was real damn fast. marciano is p4p by far the slowest fighter period. marciano had no defense. if you weren't dead, you could hit him. even someone like gene tunney could beat him, and tunney is a lhw, which is pretty friggin sad. dempsey would totally outclass marciano and then brutally ko him.

Thoth
02-25-2006, 06:25 PM
from footage ive seen all he did was swing wildly

His style being very aggressive I can see how that's all you take from the old Dempsey footage. But I recall the first time I saw some of his fights the thing that struck me was the speed and constant movement. And those punches were more accurate than wild-hope-I-connect shots.

Thoth
02-25-2006, 06:38 PM
dempsey was lightning fast, almost as fast as mike tyson! and you know tyson was real damn fast.

Personally I've always thought Jack Dempsey was faster than Mike Tyson. I wouldn't say by a lot, but that's how it's seemed to me.

even someone like gene tunney could beat him, and tunney is a lhw, which is pretty friggin sad. dempsey would totally outclass marciano and then brutally ko him.

This one i'm not sure what to do with. Are you demeaning the guy who outclassed Jack Dempsey? And if so, how is this fictional beating of Marciano at Gene Tunney's hands a "friggin sad" affair when Dempsey couldn't take Tunney twice? But apparently he would annihilate The Rock? But then I keep telling myself styles make fights...styles make fights...

Da Iceman
02-25-2006, 07:45 PM
ok since when does speed mean you have skill, and you think dempsey would ko marciano? lets get real, dempsey had the chin of a starved sewer rat. marciano would destroy him worse then vingo and walcott put together.

Kid Achilles
02-25-2006, 07:48 PM
Dempsey had a solid chin, was a better inside fighter and bodypuncher than Marciano, moved better, had a longer reach, was just as strong physically and mentally, had better reflexes and balance, and was much quicker. He could also box on the outside when he needed to and was good at cutting off the ring.

If you think Dempsey is an easy fight for Marciano, you are misjudging both fighters. I give Marciano chin and stamina over Dempsey. That's all he has over the Mauler IMO.

Da Iceman
02-25-2006, 08:53 PM
you forgot heart, power

Heckler
02-25-2006, 09:12 PM
dempsey didnt even have the skills rocky had, he just swung

Sorry, the rock was great but if anyone 'just swung' it was rocky, don't judge off the willard fight, he was very skilled. Against Jess he went into the ring with the intention of beating the living **** out of the guy.

Heckler
02-25-2006, 09:16 PM
Heart and Power? Rocky may be more powerful, but the difference would be minimal at the most. Dempsey had power in both hands and could use it more effectively. Its like the shavers vs foreman debate in regard to punching POWER, shavers had a huge right hand... but wasn't half as devestating in the ring as Foreman. Heart? equal Dempsey, Ali, Frazier, Marciano would all go until they could no longer walk. Tough Mofos.

Da Iceman
02-25-2006, 10:09 PM
marciano had power in both hands so whats your point?

RockyMarcianofan00
02-25-2006, 11:03 PM
Rocky was much stronger then Dempsey
but Dempsey had more skill as a boxer
Dempsey v Marciano would be a hard fight for both with Rocky koing Dempsey late
actually it really could either way but i lean towards marciano for the power and stamina he had

Dempsey 1919
02-25-2006, 11:35 PM
Rocky was much stronger then Dempsey
but Dempsey had more skill as a boxer
Dempsey v Marciano would be a hard fight for both with Rocky koing Dempsey late
actually it really could either way but i lean towards marciano for the power and stamina he had

dempsey beat fighters in his career way easier than marciano did so how do you figure marciano was stronger? did marciano score 14second and 16second knockouts over top contenders? nope, so enough said.

RockyMarcianofan00
02-25-2006, 11:40 PM
dempsey beat fighters in his career way easier than marciano did so how do you figure marciano was stronger? did marciano score 14second and 16second knockouts over top contenders? nope, so enough said.
Dempsey's era was almost as bleak as Marciano's
only reason dempsey's competition was alot more reveared then Marciano is because they had nothing to compare it too, no bar
professional boxing wasn't that old and these weree the best but then in the 40's they got better then in the 50's quality went down which led to the 60's and 70's which made some of the best fighters

just like today is bleak i think in the future there will be better boxers like in the 70's

so don't gimme that crap about 16 second ko's
Marciano was stronger
i'm not looking at how long it took, Marciano used heavier gloves then dempsey and did more damage then dempsey so that shows he was stronger

Dempsey 1919
02-26-2006, 12:11 AM
Dempsey's era was almost as bleak as Marciano's
only reason dempsey's competition was alot more reveared then Marciano is because they had nothing to compare it too, no bar
professional boxing wasn't that old and these weree the best but then in the 40's they got better then in the 50's quality went down which led to the 60's and 70's which made some of the best fighters

just like today is bleak i think in the future there will be better boxers like in the 70's

so don't gimme that crap about 16 second ko's
Marciano was stronger
i'm not looking at how long it took, Marciano used heavier gloves then dempsey and did more damage then dempsey so that shows he was stronger

of course fighting bums like vingo, and savold yeah.

RockyMarcianofan00
02-26-2006, 12:58 AM
wow
just wow the pure ignorrance

habZ
02-26-2006, 09:28 AM
Dempsey fought from a crouch and would bounce up with power punches, he had skill. I remember reading in a book, Ray Arcel saying that when he first went to see Rocky at a gym, he had no skill at all but he had brute power.

Heckler
02-26-2006, 11:35 PM
marciano had power in both hands so whats your point?

My point is Dempsey used both hands effectively, accurately, explosively, with speed and immense power. Marciano had an alright left but a great right, he was a bit sloppy and wasn't as precise or explosive as dempsey. Dempsey was more efficent with his punches. Give the nod to Marciano for stamina, but i cant call the match.

Heckler
02-26-2006, 11:37 PM
Dempsey's era was almost as bleak as Marciano's
only reason dempsey's competition was alot more reveared then Marciano is because they had nothing to compare it too, no bar
professional boxing wasn't that old and these weree the best but then in the 40's they got better then in the 50's quality went down which led to the 60's and 70's which made some of the best fighters

just like today is bleak i think in the future there will be better boxers like in the 70's

so don't gimme that crap about 16 second ko's
Marciano was stronger
i'm not looking at how long it took, Marciano used heavier gloves then dempsey and did more damage then dempsey so that shows he was stronger

I think its naieve to suggest Marciano was WAY stronger then dempsey... stronger possibly but that much. Marciano did more damage then dempsey? thats debateable, have you seen what he did to Jess willard? and it is now proven that Dempsey wasn't using illegal means.

dansweeney
02-26-2006, 11:45 PM
Marciano by knockout in round 8 or 9. Marciano wasn't kayo'd in one round by a ****ing fireman like dempsey was

Verstyle
02-26-2006, 11:59 PM
did dempsey fight black contenders jus curious? im not going to pretend like im some ppl on the side that think they know a fighter that was fighting over 50 years ago. im really alittle clueless on who he fought that was black

RockyMarcianofan00
02-27-2006, 12:12 AM
yea i saw what dempsey did to willard it was brutal

dempsey is one of my favorite fighters, but the point is Rocky nearly killed a few men, one including Carmine Vingo, he put blood clots in lastarza's arms etc etc

Heckler
02-27-2006, 02:18 AM
Rocky was devestating against those men, but none of his performances were as devestating as the willard fight.

Da Iceman
02-27-2006, 07:59 AM
yes they were, he paralyzed carmine vingo. for a few months

Da Iceman
02-27-2006, 08:00 AM
did dempsey fight black contenders jus curious? im not going to pretend like im some ppl on the side that think they know a fighter that was fighting over 50 years ago. im really alittle clueless on who he fought that was black
no he drew the color line like everybody and johnson.

LondonRingRules
02-27-2006, 08:13 AM
no he drew the color line like everybody and johnson.
** Not really. He signed to meet his top contender, Wills, but the financing fell through because he had left the only guy in boxing who could make the fight happen, Tex Rickard. Dempsey also parted with his manager who was opposed to Wills.

Of course Dempsey looks like a bum when viewed through juvenile bum lenses. Can't wait to see what you bums look like when you're all grow'd up!

Dempsey 1919
02-27-2006, 10:41 AM
did dempsey fight black contenders jus curious? im not going to pretend like im some ppl on the side that think they know a fighter that was fighting over 50 years ago. im really alittle clueless on who he fought that was black

he did fight a few blacks on the way to the title.

Dempsey 1919
02-27-2006, 10:42 AM
Marciano by knockout in round 8 or 9. Marciano wasn't kayo'd in one round by a ****ing fireman like dempsey was

if marciano didn't eat anything in four days do you think that marciano would still beat flynn?

Zab06
03-02-2006, 01:57 PM
The guy went 60-7-8 with 51 KO's and should have beaten Gene Tunney the second time around (long count). But shoulda, woulda, coulda I guess..

No doubt a top ten heavyweight of all time though.

RockyMarcianofan00
03-02-2006, 03:28 PM
The guy went 60-7-8 with 51 KO's and should have beaten Gene Tunney the second time around (long count). But shoulda, woulda, coulda I guess..

No doubt a top ten heavyweight of all time though.
true he should be in top 10

also i think Tunney was down anywhere from 13 seconds to 16 seconds so its like he was down twice

The Noose
03-02-2006, 11:21 PM
I think people who use the term 'bum' are ****ing annoying.

Damn Ali!

Dempsey 1919
03-02-2006, 11:24 PM
I think people who use the term 'bum' are ****ing annoying.

Damn Ali!

huh? :confused:

Yogi
03-04-2006, 12:55 AM
The guy went 60-7-8 with 51 KO's and should have beaten Gene Tunney the second time around (long count). But shoulda, woulda, coulda I guess..

Ah, I'm a Jack Dempsey fan, but the thing is...I think that the controversy surrounding the Dempsey/Tunney rematch has been blown up to something that it isn't, and whether Dempsey went to the nuetral corner right away or not, I don't think it would've mattered or changed the outcome of the fight. Tunney looked out of it for the first couple of seconds with his legs awkwardly underneath him, but after about six or seven ,after being knocked down, his eyes looked clear enough as he started following the ref's count and I really believe he would've beat the count even if it was a normal count from the very beginning (added to that was the fact that Tunney looked very clear headed right after the knockdown, as he easily evaded Dempsey's immediate charge and made him miss with his footwork & head movement)...

And it's worth noting that Jack Dempsey himself also stated the same thing some time after the fight, as he also believed that Tunney would've risen before ten regardless of when the ref's count started.

Dempsey 1919
03-04-2006, 01:20 AM
And it's worth noting that Jack Dempsey himself also stated the same thing some time after the fight, as he also believed that Tunney would've risen before ten regardless of when the ref's count started.

don't you think it might be becasue he's trying to fool himself into thinking that he didn't mess up his chance of regaining the title?

Yogi
03-04-2006, 01:34 AM
don't you think it might be becasue he's trying to fool himself into thinking that he didn't mess up his chance of regaining the title?

I'd strongly doubt that and here's only one mention on how Dempsey handled that situation;

"Dempsey might have been excused a degree of bitterness towards his old rival, since half the world was convinced that he had been robbed of victory when they met a second time in what history came to know as 'The Battle of the Long Count'. Dempsey never shared that view, acknowledging that he had been in breach of the rules by not immediately going to a nuetral corner when Tunney was floored in the seventh round. When the bell sounded at the end of the tenth round, Dempsey immediately acknowledged Tunney's superiority."

That words were written in Harry Mullan's boxing encyclopedia, but I'll try to find some contemporary quotes from Dempsey right after the fight.

Yogi
03-04-2006, 01:59 AM
"Jack Dempsey Says He Takes All the Blame For 'Long Count' Furor in Tunney Bout

To Comdr. Jack Dempsey of the Coast Guard only one person was responsible for all the fuss and furor that followed that'long count' incident in his fight to regain the heavyweight championship from Gene Tunney -- and that person was Jack Dempsey." - New York Times, Nov 21st, 1944

LondonRingRules
03-04-2006, 08:42 AM
Dempsey never used the long count as an excuse, even admitting that the reason he didn't go to the corner was because he wanted was to kill the SOB. However, when Dempsey was KDed, the ref seemed to waive the rule and picked up a fast count in Dempsey immediately which contrasted the favorable treatment the ref seemed to give Tunney. Dempsey and Tunney became great friends so obviously there was no bitterness.

Zab06
03-04-2006, 11:20 AM
And it's worth noting that Jack Dempsey himself also stated the same thing some time after the fight, as he also believed that Tunney would've risen before ten regardless of when the ref's count started.

I'm with you on that one. Tunney was probably taking his sweet old time is all. I hadn't really formed an opinion on the long count, just knew the hard fact.

leff
03-04-2006, 12:55 PM
Dempsey also had as many as 100 unrecorded professional fights that are not on his record.


i thought i should just add this, i read it on http://coxscorner.tripod.com/heavyweightchart.html

Yaman
03-04-2006, 01:10 PM
Dempsey also had as many as 100 unrecorded professional fights that are not on his record.


i thought i should just add this, i read it on http://coxscorner.tripod.com/heavyweightchart.html


Thats a great link! Im reading this **** right now.

Mike Tyson Jr.
03-04-2006, 01:21 PM
yes he was a bum
he refused to fight blacks
that is a coward and a racist

Dempsey 1919
03-04-2006, 01:32 PM
yes he was a bum
he refused to fight blacks
that is a coward and a racist

why do you keep saying that dempsey was a racist?

leff
03-04-2006, 02:43 PM
why do you keep saying that dempsey was a racist?

i wouldnt expect a logical answer, jr is an idiot, is useally stoned whan he is logged on pluss he is the worlds worst tyson nuthugger.

leff
03-04-2006, 02:44 PM
Thats a great link! Im reading this **** right now.

a great site indeed

oooh by the way rockymarcianofan posted it first(dont want his credit).

Dempsey 1919
03-04-2006, 02:45 PM
i wouldnt expect a logical answer, jr is an idiot, is useally stoned whan he is logged on pluss he is the worlds worst tyson nuthugger.

yeah, your probably right.

smasher
03-04-2006, 03:16 PM
Thats a great link! Im reading this **** right now.

It's a joke. Ali rated as the same defense as Jim Jeffries, Marciano, and Frazier among others?

Cox picked Louis over Ali in a dream match-up and probably realized he'd scored Ali higher than Louis so he dropped his defense score to make them even.

RockyMarcianofan00
03-04-2006, 04:05 PM
It's a joke. Ali rated as the same defense as Jim Jeffries, Marciano, and Frazier among others?

Cox picked Louis over Ali in a dream match-up and probably realized he'd scored Ali higher than Louis so he dropped his defense score to make them even.
Ali had horrible defense, as perrying,blocking goes he depended on movement and somewhat head movement
the only real defense he showed is the rope-a-dope

but in all honesty beside footwork (very effiecent) he didn't have the best defense, he didn't need it, he was fast enough footwork and handspeed wise to get away with keeping his hands down

go to this link and it explains the ratings
http://coxscorner.tripod.com/boxchart1.html

but i mean Louis and Ali have always been tied for number 1
there rated in higher then each other in different fields which is why they both scored an 89

machotime
03-04-2006, 04:16 PM
dempsey didnt even have the skills rocky had, he just swung
this should be refering to Marciano. Marciano had heart, chin and power. Dempsey was actually talented, and should never be called a BUM!

All you fvckers calling greats- bums are losers and ignorant.

leff
03-04-2006, 04:22 PM
Ali had horrible defense, as perrying,blocking goes he depended on movement and somewhat head movement
the only real defense he showed is the rope-a-dope

but in all honesty beside footwork (very effiecent) he didn't have the best defense, he didn't need it, he was fast enough footwork and handspeed wise to get away with keeping his hands down

go to this link and it explains the ratings
http://coxscorner.tripod.com/boxchart1.html

but i mean Louis and Ali have always been tied for number 1
there rated in higher then each other in different fields which is why they both scored an 89

i think the site is great.

RockyMarcianofan00
03-04-2006, 04:34 PM
this should be refering to Marciano. Marciano had heart, chin and power. Dempsey was actually talented, and should never be called a BUM!

All you fvckers calling greats- bums are losers and ignorant.

Dempsey was great, he didn't just swing, niether did Marciano though, they were great in different area's,
Dempsey was strong,fast,good footwork,heart,stamina
Marciano had better strenght,worse speed,worse,footwork,better heart and better stamina

so they're close Dempsey had better speed and handspeed, good every thing else

Marciano had better everything else and bad handspeed and footwork

they're smarts in the ring i think are pretty close as is there defense

but i'm not sure how good dempsey's defense was to be honest (beside his footwork)


:boxing: both all time greats that are often compared to each other :boxing:

smasher
03-04-2006, 05:58 PM
Ali had horrible defense, as perrying,blocking goes he depended on movement and somewhat head movement
the only real defense he showed is the rope-a-dope

Ask any Ali opponent who fought him in his prime and almost every one will comment on his speed and how difficult it was to hit him. That's what defense is, not getting hit. Ask any common Ali/Frazier opponent who was more difficult to hit and I'm quite sure they would say Ali.

To say the only real defense Ali showed is the rope-a-dope demonstrates your ignorance and lack of knowledge about Muhammad Ali and how he fought in his prime.

As for Monte Cox there is no need for me to go to his website. I've spoken with him enough times already regarding Muhammad Ali and he knows my views.

Yaman
03-04-2006, 05:59 PM
It's a joke. Ali rated as the same defense as Jim Jeffries, Marciano, and Frazier among others?

Cox picked Louis over Ali in a dream match-up and probably realized he'd scored Ali higher than Louis so he dropped his defense score to make them even.


You must think that every article that doesn't ride Ali is a joke. ALi was not THE perfect fighter who had everything(No boxer has btw) This link doesn't seem a joke, its pretty good.

smasher
03-04-2006, 06:03 PM
You must think that every article that doesn't ride Ali is a joke. ALi was not THE perfect fighter who had everything(No boxer has btw) This link doesn't seem a joke, its pretty good.

Why because I think a prime Ali was harder to hit then Jeffries, Frazier or Marciano? That's a no brainer.

Yaman
03-04-2006, 06:06 PM
Why because I think a prime Ali was harder to hit then Jeffries, Frazier or Marciano? That's a no brainer.


It was more based on defensive skills wich those fighters were better in. Ali was harder to hit i guess, but he wasn't as skilled in defence as those guys.

smasher
03-04-2006, 06:20 PM
It was more based on defensive skills wich those fighters were better in. Ali was harder to hit i guess, but he wasn't as skilled in defence as those guys.

Defense is the art of not getting hit and Ali was harder to hit than Frazier, Jeffries, and Marciano.

Dempsey1238
03-04-2006, 07:37 PM
Ali was fast, he had POOR defense. He was hard to hit in the 1960's. But once he lost his speed in the 1970's, He had no ideal how to block or parry punchs or jabs. Defense is like Jack Johnson or Joe Gans, both can stand still and make the guy miss em.

Dempsey 1919
03-04-2006, 09:58 PM
Ali was fast, he had POOR defense. He was hard to hit in the 1960's. But once he lost his speed in the 1970's, He had no ideal how to block or parry punchs or jabs. Defense is like Jack Johnson or Joe Gans, both can stand still and make the guy miss em.

so could ali, just move his head like he did to terrel and folley.

smasher
03-04-2006, 11:15 PM
in the 1970's, He had no ideal how to block or parry punchs or jabs. Defense is like Jack Johnson or Joe Gans, both can stand still and make the guy miss em.

Sure. For 8 rounds Ali stood against the ropes and with no idea how to block or parry punches he must have gotten hit repeatedly flush in the head by George Foreman's power punches right? Because his defence was so poor right? Miraculously he left the fight unhurt, never staggered, floored, cut, no broken nose, no broken jaw, no eyes swollen shut, his face was virtually unmarked. Incredible for a fighter who had no idea how to block or parry punches. Joe Frazier with the same defense rating as Ali goes to the ropes and gets demolished in 2 rounds and decked 6 times. But they both have the same poor defence. How can it be? Is Ali's chin 1000 times better than Frazier's?

Dempsey 1919
03-04-2006, 11:19 PM
Sure. For 8 rounds Ali stood against the ropes and with no idea how to block or parry punches he must have gotten hit repeatedly flush in the head by George Foreman's power punches right? Because his defence was so poor right? Miraculously he left the fight unhurt, never staggered, floored, cut, no broken nose, no broken jaw, no eyes swollen shut, his face was virtually unmarked. Incredible for a fighter who had no idea how to block or parry punches. Joe Frazier with the same defense rating as Ali goes to the ropes and gets demolished in 2 rounds and decked 6 times. But they both have the same poor defence. How can it be? Is Ali's chin 1000 times better than Frazier's?

lol, yeah. and if you watch the first quarry fight, ali seems to be able to block jerry's left hook pretty well with his arms. i just don't understand why he did so poorly against frazier's left hook two fights later? :confused:

smasher
03-04-2006, 11:22 PM
lol, yeah. and if you watch the first quarry fight, ali seems to be able to block jerry's left hook pretty well with his arms. i just don't understand why he did so poorly against frazier's left hook two fights later? :confused:

Because against Frazier Ali chose to hook with a hooker....

Dempsey 1919
03-04-2006, 11:24 PM
Because against Frazier Ali chose to hook with a hooker....

or maybe he didn't take frazier seriously.

vargas
03-07-2006, 11:53 AM
of course not

Southpaw Stinger
03-07-2006, 02:51 PM
or maybe he didn't take frazier seriously.

The first fight I don't think Ali took Frazier very serious, but still not lightly. The second fight Ali took Frazier the most seriously because he was determined to win and get a shot at Foreman.

Ali didn't take Frazier serious in the thrilla in manila. Frazier was thought to be shot by that point and Ali spend more time socialising than training in manila!

brownpimp88
01-06-2007, 09:50 PM
Dempsey's resume is garbage, which heavyweight did he beat? No one, i laugh at the white people that dont get off his dick.

Awesom-O
01-07-2007, 12:57 AM
Dempsey was literally a bum.

Dempsey 1919
01-07-2007, 01:45 AM
Dempsey's resume is garbage, which heavyweight did he beat? No one, i laugh at the white people that dont get off his dick.

He beat Carpentier, Gibbons, a prime Jack Sharkey, Willie Meehan, Firpo, and others. He has a solid resume.

SABBATH
01-07-2007, 01:46 AM
Dempsey was literally a bum.I prefer the word hobo. It has a nicer ring to it.

brownpimp88
01-07-2007, 01:54 AM
He beat Carpentier, Gibbons, a prime Jack Sharkey, Willie Meehan, Firpo, and others. He has a solid resume.

A couple of light heavyweights, and 3 ****ty heavyweights, yeah what a great resume. Jack sharkey is considered one of the worst heavyweight champs from the 2oth century.

Kid Achilles
01-07-2007, 01:59 AM
Jack Sharkey is considered one of the biggest wasted potentials in heavyweight history. I really need to avoid discussing boxing history with you. You're not an idiot, but you really don't have a firm grasp of these eras and the fighters that populated them. No offense meant but you're just out of your element here.

brownpimp88
01-07-2007, 02:04 AM
Jack Sharkey is considered one of the biggest wasted potentials in heavyweight history. I really need to avoid discussing boxing history with you. You're not an idiot, but you really don't have a firm grasp of these eras and the fighters that populated them. No offense meant but you're just out of your element here.

Riddick Bowe was a wasted potential to but, it still doesnt change the fact that he would have crushed many of the old timers. Sharkey isnt even top 20. I try and focus on the 70's and 80's cuz IMO those two decades produced the best fighters from most weight classes and they had the best fights. The 1920's is never considered a great era, its just the decade in which the sport finally started to evolve from idiots hitting each other to a real sport with skill and technique.

Kid Achilles
01-07-2007, 02:25 AM
No offense meant but you're just out of your element here.

brownpimp88
01-07-2007, 02:56 AM
No offense meant but you're just out of your element here.

Name one decade better than the 80's when it came to talent in all weight classes, there is none. It may have been the best decade for non- heavyweight fighters.

RockyMarcianofan00
01-07-2007, 03:39 AM
I love reading these old threads

It shows how ignorant Butterfly was...

haha, dempsey is unskilled, but marciano is skilled? hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah
that was the funniest crap i've ever heard, period! marciano had no skilld, whatsoever, period. he just relied on brute strength. marciano was low as hell. if you want to talk about a fighter being slow, then watch marciano fight. even a 137yr. old joe louis made him look stupid before rocky caught up to him. dempsey was lightning fast, almost as fast as mike tyson! and you know tyson was real damn fast. marciano is p4p by far the slowest fighter period. marciano had no defense. if you weren't dead, you could hit him. even someone like gene tunney could beat him, and tunney is a lhw, which is pretty friggin sad. dempsey would totally outclass marciano and then brutally ko him.

look at the ignorance...I'm glad butterfly has matured since then...

hemichromis
01-07-2007, 06:04 AM
I love reading these old threads

It shows how ignorant Butterfly was...


look at the ignorance...I'm glad butterfly has matured since then...


WAS?!!!!!!!!!!!!

BrooklynBomber
01-07-2007, 10:23 AM
I love reading these old threads

It shows how ignorant Butterfly was...



look at the ignorance...I'm glad butterfly has matured since then...

thats what the history forum is about, some boxing education.

hemichromis
01-07-2007, 10:34 AM
Name one decade better than the 80's when it came to talent in all weight classes, there is none. It may have been the best decade for non- heavyweight fighters.


i have to agree with you there welter -supermiddle had some fantastic fighters and fights and of course tyson was coming up he was one of the most exciting heavy's of all time

brownpimp88
01-07-2007, 01:56 PM
i have to agree with you there welter -supermiddle had some fantastic fighters and fights and of course tyson was coming up he was one of the most exciting heavy's of all time

Not just that, you had pryor, arguello, spinks, salvador sanchez, wilfredo gomez and all those guys at 147-160. It was the best non heavyweight decade of all times.

SABBATH
01-07-2007, 02:22 PM
Not just that, you had pryor, arguello, spinks, salvador sanchez, wilfredo gomez and all those guys at 147-160. It was the best non heavyweight decade of all times.Larry Holmes, Michael Spinks, Marvin Hagler, Thomas Hearns, Sugar Ray Leonard, Wilfred Benitez, Roberto Duran, Aaron Pryor, Alexis Arguello, Salvador Sanchez, Eusebio Pedroza, Wilfredo Gomez, Azumah Nelson, Jeff Chandler, Lupe Pintor...some pretty damn good fighters for sure.

Yogi
01-07-2007, 05:16 PM
I have an old issue of The Ring from Jan of 1982 lying around here somewhere, and I can remember doing a count of the fighters listed in their monthly rating and found that their were, I think, 17 different fighters that are now a member of the HOF (or will be, in the case of Holmes & Hearns)...And the great thing about that is every single one of them were at or very near their absolute primes as fighters, save maybe Duran, who was still in the midst of representing himself as a great fighter no matter what career stage he was in.

The depth of boxing at the time was just incredible (whether as a whole or per most of the divisions), says I, and I'm by far from the only one who'll think that.

Mind you, I think the 1920's were incredible, as well, and it's often referred to as the "golden age" of the sport and for many good reasons, whether it be the amount of great fighters (apx 20 HOF'ers listed in The Ring's 1924 annual rankings), participation likely at an all time high (love reading about those many hometown rivalries at the numerous small town boxing clubs in existince at the time), fighter purses not seen for nearly 40 years after (Tunney made just short of a million for the Dempsey rematch, with Liston & Patterson the first to crack a million in purses), the fact that it WAS the biggest sport of it's time, etc., etc., and etc.

Both could be classified as a "golden age" to me, as could a couple of other eras (40's/50's another one...great HOF fighters abound, with boxing making it's first appearance on television with shows practically ever Friday evening).

Yogi
01-07-2007, 05:47 PM
WAS?!!!!!!!!!!!!

I think so, and I'd tell anybody who'd listen my opinion that I think Butterfly is easily the most improved poster on here from the time he signed up 'til now. He may still post the occasional head scratcher, but I've seen a VERY noticable improvement in his openmindness when it comes to fighters from an era different than Ali's own, and I certainly don't see the frequent "glass chin", "bum", etc., comments from him much anymore, if even at all...

Butterfly's a good poster nowadays.

hhascup
01-07-2007, 05:58 PM
1st of all, someone said that Dempsey was stopped by Flynn in the 1st round, which is true, BUT it has been stated that he actually was paid to take a dive. Dempsey had one of the best chins ever.

As far as Ali's defense goes, Nat Fleischer rated his defense #2 all-time. The only boxer he put in front of Ali was Jack Johnson. I E-Mailed Cox on that and told me that he never knew about that.

It's very hard to rate boxers, I try to do it by all the facts. I count there record, who they fought and when they fought them. I also look at the films of each of them and I listen to what other boxing experts have to say.

I talked to Bert Sugar several weeks ago and I asked him how come his rating in 1991 are different then what he has today. He said, because I listen to people.

Dempsey 1919
01-07-2007, 08:25 PM
I love reading these old threads

It shows how ignorant Butterfly was...



look at the ignorance...I'm glad butterfly has matured since then...

Maybe I exaggerated a bit out of the heat of the moment, but I still stand by that post. Marciano would have little chance against Dempsey, and Marciano was easy to hit and very slow and wild.

RockyMarcianofan00
01-07-2007, 10:20 PM
Maybe I exaggerated a bit out of the heat of the moment, but I still stand by that post. Marciano would have little chance against Dempsey, and Marciano was easy to hit and very slow and wild.

Your still pretty ignorant at times,...watch some films, even your favorite fighters trainer, Angelo Dundee, saw that Marciano wasn't as easy to hit...Hell even Ali himself admitted during the tape of the superfight that Marciano was difficult to hit and he even went as far to say that if both were in there prime it would be a fight to see....

Marciano's not nearly as easy to hit as you think, and honestly look at some of his fights he's not that slow, he just throws with alot of force which makes it look slower.....So that post is garbage...

Dempsey 1919
01-08-2007, 01:49 AM
Your still pretty ignorant at times,...watch some films, even your favorite fighters trainer, Angelo Dundee, saw that Marciano wasn't as easy to hit...Hell even Ali himself admitted during the tape of the superfight that Marciano was difficult to hit and he even went as far to say that if both were in there prime it would be a fight to see....

Marciano's not nearly as easy to hit as you think, and honestly look at some of his fights he's not that slow, he just throws with alot of force which makes it look slower.....So that post is garbage...

Nevertheless, he wasn't exactly a defensive wizard, and he was not that hard to hit. Putting a lot of force in your punches means nothing. Didn't Joe Louis put a lot of force in his punches? Didn't Tyson? And they still were fast, so try again.

And I'll stand by my post that Dempsey was the better fighter. He was a better puncher, faster hands, faster feet, better head movement, and had better all-round boxing skills. And I'm sure if they fought Dempsey would hand him his behind on a silver platter.

The Noose
01-08-2007, 02:42 AM
I dont understand the point of this thread really.

What is the ****ing point of trying to make Marciano look **** by ONLY talking about how slow he was??
Its like criticizing Ali for not being short!

Why not acknowldge that he was LIKE IT OR NOT a great heavyweight champion, a nightmare of a pressure fighter who WOULD give any heavyweight in history a very tough time in the ring.

The fact that Marciano was such a small heavyweight, yet one of the toughest, durable, hard hitters ever means he deserves some respect.

SABBATH
01-08-2007, 04:22 PM
I have an old issue of The Ring from Jan of 1982 lying around here somewhere, and I can remember doing a count of the fighters listed in their monthly rating and found that their were, I think, 17 different fighters that are now a member of the HOF (or will be, in the case of Holmes & Hearns)...And the great thing about that is every single one of them were at or very near their absolute primes as fighters, save maybe Duran, who was still in the midst of representing himself as a great fighter no matter what career stage he was in.

The depth of boxing at the time was just incredible (whether as a whole or per most of the divisions), says I, and I'm by far from the only one who'll think that. The 80's gave us Mr. T, Steve Guttenberg, Molly Ringwald, Wham, Cindy Lauper, Culture Club, Growing Pains, Family Ties, Whose The Boss, designer jeans, spandex and the Rubik's cube.

If it weren't for the quality of boxing during that decade I would have jumped off a ****in' cliff.

Dempsey 1919
01-09-2007, 12:50 AM
The 80's gave us Mr. T, Steve Guttenberg, Molly Ringwald, Wham, Cindy Lauper, Culture Club, Growing Pains, Family Ties, Whose The Boss, designer jeans, spandex and the Rubik's cube.

If it weren't for the quality of boxing during that decade I would have jumped off a ****in' cliff.

What's wrong with Mr. T, fool?:D

RockyMarcianofan00
01-09-2007, 01:01 AM
Nevertheless, he wasn't exactly a defensive wizard, and he was not that hard to hit. Putting a lot of force in your punches means nothing. Didn't Joe Louis put a lot of force in his punches? Didn't Tyson? And they still were fast, so try again.

And I'll stand by my post that Dempsey was the better fighter. He was a better puncher, faster hands, faster feet, better head movement, and had better all-round boxing skills. And I'm sure if they fought Dempsey would hand him his behind on a silver platter.

You don't listen, almost everyone that fought him stated after the fight that he's not as easy to hit as the films would suggest...His body is constantly in that crouch and moving..Mind you he's not dancing around the ring for bobbing and weaving but his lateral movement made it easy for him to dodge and counter....

I don't think Dempsey would win....

Dempsey 1919
01-09-2007, 01:11 AM
You don't listen, almost everyone that fought him stated after the fight that he's not as easy to hit as the films would suggest...His body is constantly in that crouch and moving..Mind you he's not dancing around the ring for bobbing and weaving but his lateral movement made it easy for him to dodge and counter....

I don't think Dempsey would win....

If someone says that he is not as easy to hit as people think, that doesn't automatically mean that they meant that he was hard to hit, just harder than people thought. Anyway, it doesn't matter because Dempsey was very hard to hit, much more than Marciano. He also was a better puncher, throwing bombs at close range (6in to a foot), unlike Marciano's wide punched telegraphed from a mile away. Dempsey more than likely would stop him quick because Marciano is a slow starter, and Dempsey is the fastest starter in history. IMO, Marciano has little chance of withstanding Dempsey's onslaught.

RockyMarcianofan00
01-09-2007, 02:19 AM
If someone says that he is not as easy to hit as people think, that doesn't automatically mean that they meant that he was hard to hit, just harder than people thought. Anyway, it doesn't matter because Dempsey was very hard to hit, much more than Marciano. He also was a better puncher, throwing bombs at close range (6in to a foot), unlike Marciano's wide punched telegraphed from a mile away. Dempsey more than likely would stop him quick because Marciano is a slow starter, and Dempsey is the fastest starter in history. IMO, Marciano has little chance of withstanding Dempsey's onslaught.

Dempsey wasn't as hard to hit as you say, Dempsey's defense was his offense, and its one thing to see the punch and know its coming but its another to get hit by it...Ya see for being such a telegraph puncher you'd think at least one person in his career would have gotten it and figured it out, except Marciano wasn't as telegraphed as you say and knew when to mix it up and not do the same old thing...He would outsmart and outlast his opponents....Dempsey was a hard, big puncher but IMO his swings were just as wild as Marciano's maybe more so...I like Dempsey he's actually one of my more favorite fighters but look at some footage thats available....Dempsey swung big and his best defense was his punching...IMO Marciano could stand toe to toe with Dempsey and in the end outlast him...

Dempsey usually got bad after 6 rounds, Marciano's fresh for 15.......yea:banana:

Dempsey 1919
01-09-2007, 03:03 AM
Dempsey wasn't as hard to hit as you say, Dempsey's defense was his offense, and its one thing to see the punch and know its coming but its another to get hit by it...Ya see for being such a telegraph puncher you'd think at least one person in his career would have gotten it and figured it out, except Marciano wasn't as telegraphed as you say and knew when to mix it up and not do the same old thing...He would outsmart and outlast his opponents....Dempsey was a hard, big puncher but IMO his swings were just as wild as Marciano's maybe more so...I like Dempsey he's actually one of my more favorite fighters but look at some footage thats available....Dempsey swung big and his best defense was his punching...IMO Marciano could stand toe to toe with Dempsey and in the end outlast him...

Dempsey usually got bad after 6 rounds, Marciano's fresh for 15.......yea:banana:

Dempsey did not swung big, his punches were some of the shortest I've ever seen anybody throw, even shorter than Louis'.

And again, nobody "figured it out" because mostly his competition was less than great. And the good fighters he fought mostly had weak chins, so usually it only took a couple of good punches to finish them off.

If Marciano stood toe to toe with Dempsey he would be brutally taken out without a doubt. If he is to win, he has to cover up and survive the first seven rounds if he is to have any chance. Marciano's chin is not good enough to take continuous flush shots from Dempsey.

RockyMarcianofan00
01-09-2007, 03:08 AM
Dempsey did not swung big, his punches were some of the shortest I've ever seen anybody throw, even shorter than Louis'.

And again, nobody "figured it out" because mostly his competition was less than great. And the good fighters he fought mostly had weak chins, so usually it only took a couple of good punches to finish them off.

If Marciano stood toe to toe with Dempsey he would be brutally taken out without a doubt. If he is to win, he has to cover up and survive the first seven rounds if he is to have any chance. Marciano's chin is not good enough to take continuous flush shots from Dempsey.

Marciano's chin is rated very high top10 with Ali, Jake Lamatta, etc so don't start telling me he can't take a shot...

Marciano fought guys like Charles and Walcott who were some of the best tacticians around, and there chins weren't weak...Walcott had a decent chin so that argument is thrown out the window...

And your going to tell me Dempsey didn't swing wide?

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in this same footage you can see what I mean by "his defense is his offense"
?????

notice I never said Dempsey threw Wildly, just wide...

RockyMarcianofan00
01-09-2007, 03:12 AM
Dempsey's punches weren't wide in the sense that he jumped across the ring throwing a punch, but wide in the sense that he left him self open.....granted that when he was in close he was a compact fighter, and did throw well....

Dempsey 1919
01-09-2007, 03:16 AM
Marciano's chin is rated very high top10 with Ali, Jake Lamatta, etc so don't start telling me he can't take a shot...

Marciano fought guys like Charles and Walcott who were some of the best tacticians around, and there chins weren't weak...Walcott had a decent chin so that argument is thrown out the window...

And your going to tell me Dempsey didn't swing wide?

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in this same footage you can see what I mean by "his defense is his offense"
?????

notice I never said Dempsey threw Wildly, just wide...

Jess Willard's chin is much better than Marciano's, and Dempsey had little trouble putting him down. If Marciano took the same shots that Willard did on July 4, 1919, he would be down a lot as well, maybe even out.

And Charles and Walcott's chins were not the best. Both were ko'd many times in their carrers, therefore they had bad chins.

Watching that clip, I saw him throw either short punches or straight punches, so I don't see where you're trying to go with this.

Dempsey 1919
01-09-2007, 03:18 AM
Dempsey's punches weren't wide in the sense that he jumped across the ring throwing a punch, but wide in the sense that he left him self open.....granted that when he was in close he was a compact fighter, and did throw well....

Left himself open? Maybe he did that when he new the guy wouldn't hit back. Watch the beginning of the Willard fight. When he threw a punch, he always covered himself up well, and bobbed in and out of trouble. When Willard was a bloody mess and was basically defenseless, it didn't matter.

SABBATH
01-09-2007, 08:44 AM
Left himself open? Maybe he did that when he new the guy wouldn't hit back. Watch the beginning of the Willard fight. When he threw a punch, he always covered himself up well, and bobbed in and out of trouble. When Willard was a bloody mess and was basically defenseless, it didn't matter.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3wxHY3p9DiQ

This clip was brought up on another thread and it applies here. Keeping in mind this is a sparring session and Dempsey was likely using it to work on defence you can see from the brief footage that he has decent head movement and weaves and slips punches well. His chin is tucked in and he moves well on the balls of his feet. He didn't just wade in wide open and throw punches.

hemichromis
01-09-2007, 02:08 PM
Dempsey wasn't as hard to hit as you say, Dempsey's defense was his offense, and its one thing to see the punch and know its coming but its another to get hit by it...Ya see for being such a telegraph puncher you'd think at least one person in his career would have gotten it and figured it out, except Marciano wasn't as telegraphed as you say and knew when to mix it up and not do the same old thing...He would outsmart and outlast his opponents....Dempsey was a hard, big puncher but IMO his swings were just as wild as Marciano's maybe more so...I like Dempsey he's actually one of my more favorite fighters but look at some footage thats available....Dempsey swung big and his best defense was his punching...IMO Marciano could stand toe to toe with Dempsey and in the end outlast him...

Dempsey usually got bad after 6 rounds, Marciano's fresh for 15.......yea:banana:


you really think these 2 would go more than 6 rounds?

marciano was quite good at not getting hit but sempsey threw so many powerful punches i don'#t see marcaino lasting more than 5 rounds even if his chin was the best ever!

it's a styles thing marciano goes slow saving his energy fro when the opponent it tired, dempsey comes in all guns blazing and knocks you out!

Kid Achilles
01-09-2007, 04:16 PM
Dempsey was clearly slicker and a shorter puncher than Marciano. I love both but Dempsey had a more technical style and was much quicker of hand and foot. Dempsey was more of a boxerpuncher and in the first round of Willard he chose to punch, once he hurt Willard bad early on. In the later (as in the rounds after the first lol) rounds of that fight he boxes.

Dempsey 1919
01-09-2007, 04:30 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3wxHY3p9DiQ

This clip was brought up on another thread and it applies here. Keeping in mind this is a sparring session and Dempsey was likely using it to work on defence you can see from the brief footage that he has decent head movement and weaves and slips punches well. His chin is tucked in and he moves well on the balls of his feet. He didn't just wade in wide open and throw punches.

Yeah, I saw that lots of times. Dempsey had brilliant headmovement. He rolled as well as ducked and slipped. Dempsey definetely had the better defense.

RockyMarcianofan00
01-09-2007, 09:29 PM
Hey kid achilles do you think Willard had a better chin then Marciano because I think thats garbage.....

Kid Achilles
01-09-2007, 10:18 PM
I do. Marciano was very durable and had a lot of heart but he was rocked by men who were decent but not great hitters. Willard barely flinched when Johnson, who was a very good puncher when he tried and in that fight he was trying, threw everything at him. Willard had one of the best chins of any heavyweight champion. His ability to absorb punishment and keep coming was one of his most notable traits. I'd say he had a better chin than Marciano, yes.

RockyMarcianofan00
01-09-2007, 10:22 PM
I do. Marciano was very durable and had a lot of heart but he was rocked by men who were decent but not great hitters. Willard barely flinched when Johnson, who was a very good puncher when he tried and in that fight he was trying, threw everything at him. Willard had one of the best chins of any heavyweight champion. His ability to absorb punishment and keep coming was one of his most notable traits. I'd say he had a better chin than Marciano, yes.

:puppy_dog I'm a man who cannot catch a break...but at least he's truthful...

I still believe, however, people don't give Marciano's durability enough credit...Punchers or not the man was only staggered a handful of times, and knocked down twice, both of which he was up for before a 5 count...

Dempsey 1919
01-10-2007, 12:58 AM
:puppy_dog I'm a man who cannot catch a break...but at least he's truthful...

I still believe, however, people don't give Marciano's durability enough credit...Punchers or not the man was only staggered a handful of times, and knocked down twice, both of which he was up for before a 5 count...

Willard was never knocked down before he fought Marciano. Jack Johnson who is a considerably bigger puncher than Walcott or Moore beat up on him for 20 rounds, and he didn't even flinch. No way marciano could survive that.

hemichromis
01-10-2007, 02:56 AM
Willard was never knocked down before he fought Marciano. Jack Johnson who is a considerably bigger puncher than Walcott or Moore beat up on him for 20 rounds, and he didn't even flinch. No way marciano could survive that.

i assume you mean demsey!
willarsd hasd a good chin but it cxoulsdn't have been THAT good, he was knocked down 7 times in the first round ansd was lucky to get saved by thwe bell!

marciano also had a great chin but hwe faced few hard hitters

Dempsey 1919
01-10-2007, 12:26 PM
i assume you mean demsey!
willarsd hasd a good chin but it cxoulsdn't have been THAT good, he was knocked down 7 times in the first round ansd was lucky to get saved by thwe bell!

marciano also had a great chin but hwe faced few hard hitters

He was floored seven times in the first round because there was no neutral corner rule. If there was, he would not have gone down more than maybe three times.

Kid Achilles
01-10-2007, 04:24 PM
Who knows if he even goes down twice with a neutral corner rule. Even with Dempsey hitting him almost at will with HUGE punches that would kill most people, Willard fights back through it all and refuses to quit after that round. Willard's chin was on the level of Chuvalo, Cobb, etc. Dempsey would have done the same thing to those guys if he caught them with a good shot like he did with Willard, the left hook that started that whole savage all out attack.

Dempsey hurt him good once and never let up. The rules of the day allowed him to keep hitting Willard as soon as he was up off the canvas.

Marciano had a great chin but Willard's was exceptional. Chuvalo good IMO.

brownpimp88
01-10-2007, 04:49 PM
Who knows if he even goes down twice with a neutral corner rule. Even with Dempsey hitting him almost at will with HUGE punches that would kill most people, Willard fights back through it all and refuses to quit after that round. Willard's chin was on the level of Chuvalo, Cobb, etc. Dempsey would have done the same thing to those guys if he caught them with a good shot like he did with Willard, the left hook that started that whole savage all out attack.

Dempsey hurt him good once and never let up. The rules of the day allowed him to keep hitting Willard as soon as he was up off the canvas.

Marciano had a great chin but Willard's was exceptional. Chuvalo good IMO.

Tyson, lennox and holyfield have all surpassed dempsey. Jack doesnt have a great resume like everyone thinks he does.

SABBATH
01-10-2007, 05:49 PM
Marciano had a great chin but Willard's was exceptional. Chuvalo good IMO.Here's a newsflash for you Kid. Chuvalo had 93 pro fights fights over the span of 22 years and never tasted the canvas once. That's a hell of alot more than Marciano or Willard can say, so your belief that Chuvalo's chin was "good" compared to Marciano's "great" and Willard's "exceptional" doesn't hold much water in knowledgeable boxing circles, many who consider Chuvalo to possess the best chin P4P of all time.

****, Marciano and Willard don't even have the number of fights and professional years COMBINED that Chuvalo did, not to mention calibre of opposition.

Willard took a great left hook from Dempsey. Check out the left hook Chuvalo took from Foreman and the ensuing barrage he stood up to from George Foreman.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=VWSHQcLptdo

That aint' a mere "good" chin.

Kid Achilles
01-10-2007, 08:27 PM
When did I say Chuvalo had merely a good chin? I said Marciano was the one who only had a very good chin, Chuvalo's is up there with Cobb, Mercer, Willard and the rest as what I'd describe as excellent, the cream of the crop. The very best.

I know you're a Canadian, but trust me, I'm a Chuvalo fan too. The guy has lived a tough but honorable life in and out of the ring.

But if Foreman was allowed to tee off on Chuvalo with the small gloves they used in Dempsey's era, without a ref stepping in, I believe Chuvalo would have been dropped. He was clearly very, very hurt in that fight. Do you really think he wouldn't have been floored if the ref just allowed Foreman to continue to go to town on him? What about if he wore Dempsey's gloves?

There are limits to what the human body can withstand. Chuvalo was as tough as they come but so was Willard. Put Chuvalo in an era with smaller gloves and less merciful rules and see if he can avoid getting knocked down by his big punching contemporaries in Frazier, Foreman, etc.

It's no slight to Chuvalo that I'm comparing Willard's chin to his. Rather I used his name as it a benchmark of the ultimate in physical ruggedness displayed in the boxing gym.

However, I do believe he would have been floored if he was hit in the same manner as Willard was in Toledo, with the same hard, accurate punches, with those smaller gloves, and the same consistency of punishment with no time to recovery because of the rules in those days. I don't care who you are, if Dempsey hits you over and over again with his best shots, you're going down.

SABBATH
01-10-2007, 09:11 PM
When did I say Chuvalo had merely a good chin? I said Marciano was the one who only had a very good chin, Chuvalo's is up there with Cobb, Mercer, Willard and the rest as what I'd describe as excellent, the cream of the crop. The very best..

Read your own quote.


Marciano had a great chin but Willard's was exceptional. Chuvalo good IMO

Brockton Lip
01-10-2007, 09:29 PM
Read your own quote.

He means 'Chuvalo good' as in Willard's chin was along the same lines of Chuvalo.

Kid Achilles
01-10-2007, 10:08 PM
I meant Chuvalo-good as his chin was at the same level of Chuvalo, which is basically the highest respects anyone can pay a fighter's chin.

SABBATH
01-11-2007, 08:16 AM
I meant Chuvalo-good as his chin was at the same level of Chuvalo, which is basically the highest respects anyone can pay a fighter's chin.I understand what you were trying to say now, but even still, Willard's resume is very weak, and his career brief when compared to Chuvalo's. Chuvalo is considered by most to have the greatest chin in heavyweight history, if not P4P All-Time. Other than getting smoked by Dempsey what else are you basing this opinion on?

Kid Achilles
01-11-2007, 11:56 AM
Taking everything Jackson Johnson, Gunboat Smith and other noted hitters of the day could dish out, in an era where gloves were much smaller and thinner and yet he wasn't knocked down until the Dempsey fight despite being an inexperienced fighter who started at 30 and never fully realized his potential skill wise. He was in there with some very good hitters and really didn't even have Chuvalo's level of skill and experience to help him. The fact that after he recovered from that first round, even Dempsey couldn't put him down again for the duration of the fight.

I'll agree that Chuvalo's career was longer and he faced the more recognized names, but who's to say Chuvalo goes a career without going down if he has to fight in that era. If he's caught by Dempsey like Willard was, I'm not so sure he stays up. Foreman had him hurt bad but lacked the accuracy to put flush combinations together. Dempsey would be landing right on the chin, with full power, and he'd be doing it often.

I'm of the belief that no one in history, not Cobb, not Mercer, not Jeffries, not Marciano or anyone is going to stay upright if Dempsey hits them on the chin repeatedly. I'm not saying he'd knock all them down if they are allowed to fight on there all times but if you let them get caught and dazed like Willard was (in other words sticking them in Willards place after that first hook hurts him), Dempsey would knock them all down IMO.

Sir_Jose
01-11-2007, 02:28 PM
Kid Achilles will suck off any fighter who fought in the black and white era, Its no use he wont listen to logic.


Just because guys were big doesn't mean they actually had talent.

RockyMarcianofan00
01-11-2007, 04:27 PM
Kid Achilles will suck off any fighter who fought in the black and white era, Its no use he wont listen to logic.


Just because guys were big doesn't mean they actually had talent.

Not to start trouble...but
your completely wrong..Kid Achilles is one of the most knowlegeable/ and most reputable posters on BS. I've never seen him favor any one era over another....He judges everyone fairly, and not to start trouble but he's probably seen 4x's as many fights as you have so don't say that he won't listen to logic because his logic is usually right....

SABBATH
01-11-2007, 05:23 PM
Kid Achilles will suck off any fighter who fought in the black and white era, Its no use he wont listen to logic. Just because guys were big doesn't mean they actually had talent.Willard was one of the least skilled heavyweight champs of all time. He was strong and durable which is about the best I can say for him. Oh yeah, he was tall.

Kid Achilles
01-11-2007, 05:27 PM
Who is calling Willard talented? Actually it was his lack of talent and experience, and that fact that he never went down before Dempsey that makes me in such awe of his chin. If he had talent you could say "oh he was a big athletic boxer who fought from the outside and was rarely hit" but in fact he was hit, and hit hard, by some of the best punchers of his day.

Some of the best chins of all time belonged to guys who had less than stellar boxing ability and talent. In fact, that type of fighter proves his chin more often than not than the top guys who are rarely hit flush on the button. If a guy is rarely hit, can you really give him the same credit for having a chin as a guy who takes the best punches of everyone he fights? I don't think so.

Willard was underrated and a decent tall boxer with a good jab and hard right hand, but his greatest gifts were stamina and a chin. Great champion? Hell no. Good fighter who was tough as tough as they come? Definitely, as Lennox Lewis would say.

Do I know for a fact if Willard was JUST as tough as Chuvalo? No I don't, but I believe they had awesome chins approximately on the same level. Certainly both had better chins than Frazier, Marciano, Tyson and others who were tough but not AS tough.

SABBATH
01-11-2007, 08:21 PM
Who is calling Willard talented? Not me. That's why I said Willard was one of the least skilled heavyweight champs of all time.

"I never liked boxing. I hated it as I never hated a thing previously, but there was money in it." -Jess Willard

"I never really knew how to fight. I never could do anything to the other fellow in the way of damage. I simply couldn't do it"-Jess Willard

Legendary Champions by John Lardner p.188

brownpimp88
01-11-2007, 08:50 PM
I want to see someone make a list of dempsey's 10 biggest wins. This guy is like borderline top 10, bert picking him in the top 5 is a laughing joke.

-Antonio-
01-11-2007, 09:54 PM
Didnt Dempsey avoid all black fighters? Ive only seen one or two fights. Of course the quality of horrible so you cant gauge the amount of talent he had. So I have no opinion on him. I also heard he loaded his gloves against Willard? Or was it another fighter?

Sir_Jose
01-12-2007, 01:16 AM
Not to start trouble...but
your completely wrong..Kid Achilles is one of the most knowlegeable/ and most reputable posters on BS. I've never seen him favor any one era over another....He judges everyone fairly, and not to start trouble but he's probably seen 4x's as many fights as you have so don't say that he won't listen to logic because his logic is usually right....

I dont even know who you are and ive been here since day 1

RockyMarcianofan00
01-12-2007, 01:19 AM
I dont even know who you are and ive been here since day 1
How can you not know me, I swear I've had conversations with you....

Another question, How have you been here since day one when some users are from 2002, and your 2003....

All that aside, I said that to you because I've never seen Kid Achilles favor one fighter from an era over another so I don't believe you were correct in that aspect...

but what you said about big fighters I agree with 100%

Verstyle
01-12-2007, 01:23 AM
Didnt Dempsey avoid all black fighters? Ive only seen one or two fights. Of course the quality of horrible so you cant gauge the amount of talent he had. So I have no opinion on him. I also heard he loaded his gloves against Willard? Or was it another fighter?

i remember seeing on t.v something of him in the works for fighting a black fighter but something happened i think with the promotional thing

Sir_Jose
01-12-2007, 01:29 AM
How can you not know me, I swear I've had conversations with you....

Another question, How have you been here since day one when some users are from 2002, and your 2003....

All that aside, I said that to you because I've never seen Kid Achilles favor one fighter from an era over another so I don't believe you were correct in that aspect...

but what you said about big fighters I agree with 100%

Guy,I used to write for this site ok. Im not really going to try and argue this ok.

Ive had plenty of conversations with him and have formed my own opnion of the guy

RockyMarcianofan00
01-12-2007, 01:38 AM
Guy,I used to write for this site ok. Im not really going to try and argue this ok.

Ive had plenty of conversations with him and have formed my own opnion of the guy

I never meant to offend.......which is the way I think your taking this...

Just like you formed your opinion on him and stated so did I, however I do agree with you this is pretty stupid to argue over..

brownpimp88
01-12-2007, 02:01 AM
Kid Achilles will suck off any fighter who fought in the black and white era, Its no use he wont listen to logic.


Just because guys were big doesn't mean they actually had talent.

Dempsey is so overrated, kid achilles picks lennox and foreman to get ko'd by dempsey, it's funny man.

Dempsey 1919
01-12-2007, 02:14 AM
Dempsey is so overrated, kid achilles picks lennox and foreman to get ko'd by dempsey, it's funny man.

Kid never said Dempsey would ko Foreman.:rolleyes:

brownpimp88
01-12-2007, 02:54 AM
Kid never said Dempsey would ko Foreman.:rolleyes:

Foreman is a swarmer hunter, if you have a brain you would realize that dempsey would lose this fight. You and kid aches dont listen to logic at all.

Foreman's weakness= slick boxing, not guys that will get inside his reach.

SABBATH
01-12-2007, 07:39 AM
Willard was underrated and a decent tall boxer with a good jab and hard right hand, but his greatest gifts were stamina and a chin. Great champion? Hell no. Good fighter who was tough as tough as they come? Definitely, as Lennox Lewis would say.

In Willard's 1911 fight with Joe Cox, Willard in an effort to avoid the onslaught of Cox, reportedly grabbed the referee and hid behind him to avoid getting hit. Willard then quit altogether, leaving the ring and telling the referee that he was in no condition to fight.

The act of cowardice so disgusted his veteran manager Billy McCarney that he immediately severed his contract with Willard. "I quit the big dog on the spot" McCarney would later recall.

Kid, would you concede the same graciousness you reserve for old time fighters like Willard, if a modern fighter did the same thing as Willard did against Cox? What are your views of Tyson-McNeeley for example?

Kid Achilles
01-13-2007, 12:25 AM
I had typed out a long response to this post but boxingscene's server screwed up and it was never sent, or even saved in the quick reply window.

To summarize, Willard's quitting to Cox does not really take away much from my opinion of his heart as the fight happened extremely early in his career. In fact, I believe he'd only been a pro for one (perhaps a little longer than a year) year with no amateur background. I mean take Tyson in his first year of boxing (an amateur) and stick him in with a pretty solid pro prospect, and see how he does.

Yeah he quit, but Ingemar Johansson quit against Ed Sanders in the amateur ranks and Ingo was no coward. I think when you match an inexperienced fighter in over his head, you can't expect much. The professional attitude is something that is gained with experience and maturity (as a fighter, not just a human); you aren't born with it. Quitting against a guy with the potential Joe Cox had was no strike against Willard, whatever his manager had to say.

I just don't see the comparison to Tyson-McBride (I'm assuming you meant that and not McNeely, there was no quitting in that fight) where Tyson even as shot as he was had much more talent, experience, and ability than the absolutely lousy McBride who wasn't even hurting Tyson much.

To me the difference is Willard quit but went on to become known for his durability and gameness, while Tyson was always suspected to be a frontrunner by Atlas and guys around him, and the truth came out later in his career. Looking at Tyson's career in hindsight I see a trend towards folding when the going got tough whereas with Willard I see an inexperienced fighter (30 years old but a baby in boxing years) who quit, got over it, and turned himself into a decent but very tough fighter.

Dempsey 1919
01-13-2007, 02:40 AM
Foreman is a swarmer hunter, if you have a brain you would realize that dempsey would lose this fight. You and kid aches dont listen to logic at all.

Foreman's weakness= slick boxing, not guys that will get inside his reach.

Tyson III, can't you read? I said that Kid Achilles never said that Dempsey could ko Foreman, I didn't say that I think Dempsey would ko Foreman. Read the post carefully before you respond, please.:rolleyes:

hemichromis
01-13-2007, 04:08 AM
I had typed out a long response to this post but boxingscene's server screwed up and it was never sent, or even saved in the quick reply window.

To summarize, Willard's quitting to Cox does not really take away much from my opinion of his heart as the fight happened extremely early in his career. In fact, I believe he'd only been a pro for one (perhaps a little longer than a year) year with no amateur background. I mean take Tyson in his first year of boxing (an amateur) and stick him in with a pretty solid pro prospect, and see how he does.

Yeah he quit, but Ingemar Johansson quit against Ed Sanders in the amateur ranks and Ingo was no coward. I think when you match an inexperienced fighter in over his head, you can't expect much. The professional attitude is something that is gained with experience and maturity (as a fighter, not just a human); you aren't born with it. Quitting against a guy with the potential Joe Cox had was no strike against Willard, whatever his manager had to say.

I just don't see the comparison to Tyson-McBride (I'm assuming you meant that and not McNeely, there was no quitting in that fight) where Tyson even as shot as he was had much more talent, experience, and ability than the absolutely lousy McBride who wasn't even hurting Tyson much.

To me the difference is Willard quit but went on to become known for his durability and gameness, while Tyson was always suspected to be a frontrunner by Atlas and guys around him, and the truth came out later in his career. Looking at Tyson's career in hindsight I see a trend towards folding when the going got tough whereas with Willard I see an inexperienced fighter (30 years old but a baby in boxing years) who quit, got over it, and turned himself into a decent but very tough fighter.


IMO willard coming out for round 2 after getting knocked down 7 times and floored for over 10 seconds at the end of round one is proof that he had alot of heart

hemichromis
01-13-2007, 04:09 AM
Tyson III, can't you read? I said that Kid Achilles never said that Dempsey could ko Foreman, I didn't say that I think Dempsey would ko Foreman. Read the post carefully before you respond, please.:rolleyes:


Oh is the pimp an alt of mike tyson jr?
it all makes sense now!

brownpimp88
01-13-2007, 04:13 AM
who's mike tyson jr or mike tyson 3, this crap is annoying. I'm not even that big of a tyson fan.

Mike Tyson77
01-16-2007, 09:46 PM
Dempsey was a top ten heavyweight and that is undisputed. I consider him one of the P4P greatest fighters and punchers of all time as he regulary took on much heavier men and beat them convincingly. People who actually understand what the term P4P means would agree with me.

In terms of ability, he had everything but an exceptional defense. His power, handspeed, footspeed, reflexes, chin, and endurance were all very good. His one flaw was he was often thinking of the attack and not about what the opponent was going to do with him. He did not have an extremely defensive mind, but he was no means slow or easy to hit. He just got caught coming in while on the attack. Luckily for him, he also had an amazing ability to recuperate from hard punches and knockdowns and then come back to land concussive blows of his own. He had as much heart as anyone who ever laced them up. I consider him superior to Rocky Marciano and Joe Frazier in talent. He was the best of the great heavyweight swarmers.

As far as accomplishes go, he did not successfully defend his title against great competition compared to other great champions, but aside from Harry Wills, he took on everyone who was available. It should be noted that he completely cleaned up his division prior to winning the title.

All in all I rank Dempsey as the 5th or 6th greatest heavyweight, and that is due to a lackluster (in terms of quality of opposition; not the entertainment value of those fights!) championship reign. On ability alone he is a top three or four heavyweight.


I love Dempsey and Marciano, but Marciano I think is better. Marciano would rather die than lose. And you gotta take points from Dempsey for drawing the color line. Dempsey wouldnt even fight a 41 year old Jack Johnson.

BuddyChacon
01-17-2007, 12:24 AM
I love Dempsey and Marciano, but Marciano I think is better. Marciano would rather die than lose. And you gotta take points from Dempsey for drawing the color line. Dempsey wouldnt even fight a 41 year old Jack Johnson.

Johnson also drew the color line himself during his reign as champ. I have read every Jack Johnson Writing I can and he couldn't stand when Louis became champ(He bashes Louis openly in many writings). He wanted to be the only black champ and that is why he avoided other Blacks during his reign.Dempsey management didn't want the fight blacks. He feared no man, and neither did Jack Johnson. But the trouble Jack Johnson caused would never be allowed to happen again and Dempseys management knew another black champ would be a public disaster. Johnson was not a worthy opponent for Dempsey at this point and Harry Wills would have been the appropriate challenger for Jack.

RockyMarcianofan00
01-17-2007, 01:42 AM
Johnson also drew the color line himself during his reign as champ. I have read every Jack Johnson Writing I can and he couldn't stand when Louis became champ(He bashes Louis openly in many writings). He wanted to be the only black champ and that is why he avoided other Blacks during his reign.Dempsey management didn't want the fight blacks. He feared no man, and neither did Jack Johnson. But the trouble Jack Johnson caused would never be allowed to happen again and Dempseys management knew another black champ would be a public disaster. Johnson was not a worthy opponent for Dempsey at this point and Harry Wills would have been the appropriate challenger for Jack.

He should have seen what happened over the next 20 years later...
Charles
Walcott
Patterson
Liston
Ali
Frazier
Foreman
Spinks
Norton
Holmes

and later
Tyson
Buster Douglas
Holyfeild

it goes on, I know at the time it was easy to think descrimination would go on forever but looking back it makes me laugh for him to think that he would be the only...

hemichromis
01-17-2007, 02:03 AM
who's mike tyson jr or mike tyson 3, this crap is annoying. I'm not even that big of a tyson fan.

now thats a bit of a porky!

Dempsey 1919
01-17-2007, 02:15 AM
I love Dempsey and Marciano, but Marciano I think is better. Marciano would rather die than lose. And you gotta take points from Dempsey for drawing the color line. Dempsey wouldnt even fight a 41 year old Jack Johnson.

Johnson didn't deserve a title shot at that point, plus the politics of the day wouldn't allow him to fight him.

dempsey1919
01-19-2007, 10:58 PM
ok since when does speed mean you have skill, and you think dempsey would ko marciano? lets get real, dempsey had the chin of a starved sewer rat. marciano would destroy him worse then vingo and walcott put together.



Dempsey Didnt have just speed and power he had good movment good head movment vary good chin lets say tyson was a clone of Dempsey as fare as fighting style

Kid Achilles
01-20-2007, 01:19 PM
Why the **** would Dempsey fight a 41 year old Johnson? He would have nothing to gain by beating on an ancient former champion.

Dempsey 1919
01-20-2007, 02:52 PM
Why the **** would Dempsey fight a 41 year old Johnson? He would have nothing to gain by beating on an ancient former champion.

Exactly....

Mike Tyson77
01-20-2007, 03:06 PM
Why the **** would Dempsey fight a 41 year old Johnson? He would have nothing to gain by beating on an ancient former champion.


Everyone hated Jack Johnson. If Dempsey knock Jacks head clean off he would have been 1000 times more popular.

Kid Achilles
01-20-2007, 03:30 PM
What makes you so sure of this? No one wanted to see Dempsey in the ring with Johnson, except for maybe Johnson's fans. It wouldn't have been a competitive fight at all and Johnson could have been killed or seriously injured considering Dempsey's ability and punching power.

Dempsey 1919
01-20-2007, 03:51 PM
What makes you so sure of this? No one wanted to see Dempsey in the ring with Johnson, except for maybe Johnson's fans. It wouldn't have been a competitive fight at all and Johnson could have been killed or seriously injured considering Dempsey's ability and punching power.

I don't know about killed, that's stretching it, but there was no way he was gonna win, I'll admit that.

Southpaw Stinger
01-20-2007, 08:00 PM
What makes you so sure of this? No one wanted to see Dempsey in the ring with Johnson, except for maybe Johnson's fans. It wouldn't have been a competitive fight at all and Johnson could have been killed or seriously injured considering Dempsey's ability and punching power.

Indeed. Would have done little for dempseys rep.