View Full Version : who did liston beat to be so highly regarded as good??


Verstyle
02-08-2006, 01:38 PM
im jus really curious only reconizable name i see on there is patterson thats about it. sooooooooo why was he hyped up so much when he faced alot of bums :confused:

Dempsey 1919
02-08-2006, 01:45 PM
im jus really curious only reconizable name i see on there is patterson thats about it. sooooooooo why was he hyped up so much when he faced alot of bums :confused:

floyd patterson x2
cleveland williams x2
zora folley
eddie machen

all HOF'ers!

Southpaw Stinger
02-08-2006, 01:53 PM
He also beat Ali!








At a staring contest, but that may just have been a rumour.

Kid Achilles
02-08-2006, 02:13 PM
I will add Nino Valdez to that list, as he was a good prospect, and also add that Cleveland Williams was in his prime when Liston beat him. The Williams that Ali beat up on had been shot by a police officer and was physically no longer at his best.

Liston fought some very good competition on the way up and destroyed them all for the most part. I think Liston's competition pre-Patterson was better than Foreman's competition pre-Frazier. Foreman obviously did more while champion however.

angelo_dundee
02-08-2006, 02:23 PM
Its more the domination he held at his time. A feared champion, in the true sense.

Verstyle
02-08-2006, 02:31 PM
floyd patterson x2
cleveland williams x2
zora folley
eddie machen

all HOF'ers!


hmmmmmm the only name i see sorta familar is zora folley cause ali fought him

angelo_dundee
02-08-2006, 02:40 PM
Patterson is a legend man. C'mon.

Dempsey 1919
02-08-2006, 02:42 PM
hmmmmmm the only name i see sorta familar is zora folley cause ali fought him

they're all HOF hw's, though.

Verstyle
02-08-2006, 02:43 PM
they're all HOF hw's, though.


i wonder what do ppl consider when tryin to see if ppl can be hall of famers

angelo_dundee
02-08-2006, 03:03 PM
Patterson was I think the first man to win the title twice, and also at the time the youngest man to win the title.

Floyd is a legend.

moondog0
02-08-2006, 03:10 PM
I think you were right in the first place Mystal! Liston didn't fight anyone!!!! No boxing ability, just a lot of hype with knockout ability, aka, Jerry Cooney.....

Verstyle
02-08-2006, 03:25 PM
I think you were right in the first place Mystal! Liston didn't fight anyone!!!! No boxing ability, just a lot of hype with knockout ability, aka, Jerry Cooney.....


TRUE TRUE TRUE i think his aoera of invincibility was his stare and his jab. but thats all he did. i think he's overrated in my eyes

Kid Achilles
02-08-2006, 03:33 PM
No offense but that fact that you don't know who Cleveland Williams or Eddie Machen are doesn't amount to much in terms of how good they actually were. Take my word that they were a lot better and more well rounded than a lot of the guys Tyson was knocking out on his way up.

Liston is alot like Dempsey in that they both cleaned up their divisions on the way up, and so there was no one impressive left to defend against.

Verstyle
02-08-2006, 03:39 PM
No offense but that fact that you don't know who Cleveland Williams or Eddie Machen are doesn't amount to much in terms of how good they actually were. Take my word that they were a lot better and more well rounded than a lot of the guys Tyson was knocking out on his way up.

Liston is alot like Dempsey in that they both cleaned up their divisions on the way up, and so there was no one impressive left to defend against.


but still :confused: tyson fought fall of famers ppl that cleaned up there own divisions, champions, former champions, and 2 gold medalist. now liston did what :rolleyes:


p.s. im not tryin to be a smart ass im jus alittle confused on why he's always hyped like he is

The_One77
02-08-2006, 03:55 PM
Tyson was a better heavyweight than Liston.

Liston was overhyped, and got exposed by Ali.

Liston competition was overrated too, Zorra Foley and Cleveland William's records are padded with bums to make them look good.
I dont see why they really belong in the HOF

The Noose
02-08-2006, 04:01 PM
Id say its easy to look back at a fighter from 50 years ago and say "Who did he fight?"

Many boxing experts, who were around to see him fight and all the champions since then still consider Liston to be without question an all time great.

His record is great and the manner of his victories speak for themselves.http://www.boxrec.com/boxer_display.php?boxer_id=009031

Tyson himself regards Liston as an incredible heavyweight.

Yogi
02-08-2006, 04:28 PM
they're all HOF hw's, though.

And what HOF are Williams, Machen and Folley a part of again, because they certainly aren't in the IBHOF? :confused:

But regardless of that, those fighters were still top notch Heavyweights in their era, and like Kid said Liston basically cleaned out the division in devastating fashion before he finally got Patterson in the ring...Machen, Folley, Williams, DeJohn, Valdes, Harris, etc., were all very highly ranked at around the time they faced Liston, and I personally think Liston's pre-title winning opposition was friggin excellant!

Heckler
02-08-2006, 04:53 PM
Who did Marciano fight? He fought three good fighters far beyond their prime, although walcott put up a real good performance. Would Marciano be so highly regarded if he had one loss on his resume? But when the competiton is crap, you should be able to see past this and look at the fighters capability... Rocky was still a great and so was Liston. Liston beat machen, williams etc good fighters whom are underrated and most know little about them. Liston had good very good boxing skills, was powerful, and smart in the ring... he cleaned up an entire division before loosing to clay and he is rightfully considered a great.

Dempsey 1919
02-08-2006, 05:10 PM
but still :confused: tyson fought fall of famers ppl that cleaned up there own divisions, champions, former champions, and 2 gold medalist. now liston did what :rolleyes:


p.s. im not tryin to be a smart ass im jus alittle confused on why he's always hyped like he is

holmes was 37, and spinks is a lhw. no way they compare to a prime williams, and a prime patterson.

Dempsey 1919
02-08-2006, 05:11 PM
I think you were right in the first place Mystal! Liston didn't fight anyone!!!! No boxing ability, just a lot of hype with knockout ability, aka, Jerry Cooney.....

well, we all know you're a moron, so enough said.

Verstyle
02-08-2006, 05:17 PM
holmes was 37, and spinks is a lhw. no way they compare to a prime williams, and a prime patterson.


spink cleaned out the lightweavyweight division. and holmes didnt even try to fight tyson he jus ran. and the 4th round u could see he still had it when he was doing the jabs so he wasnt that old then :rolleyes: also spinks beat a person some ppl regard as being a harder hitter then tyson gerry cooney :eek: and we all saw what happened to old spinks ;)

Dempsey 1919
02-08-2006, 05:31 PM
spink cleaned out the lightweavyweight division. and holmes didnt even try to fight tyson he jus ran. and the 4th round u could see he still had it when he was doing the jabs so he wasnt that old then :rolleyes: also spinks beat a person some ppl regard as being a harder hitter then tyson gerry cooney :eek: and we all saw what happened to old spinks ;)

"spinks cleaned out the light hw division!" what the hell does that mean? what does that have to do with hw's? thats like me saying since my 6yr. old brother beat up all other 6yr. olds, and if i beat him up then it means i'm the best fighter of all time! what kind of logic is that? and forgetaboutit, holmes was old, he was not in his prime. he was scared of tyson, and he could not do anything. gerry cooney was a junky by the time spinks fought him, so that makes no sense, that's like saying larry holmes is the greatest fighter of all time, since he beat ali, when ali had parkinson's and was on drugs.

liston crushed HOF'ers in their primes like patterson twice, williams twice, folley, machen, etc. tyson never beat a great HW fighter in their prime, unless you want to call spinks a hw. so your argument is just plain trash.

Verstyle
02-08-2006, 10:17 PM
"spinks cleaned out the light hw division!" what the hell does that mean? what does that have to do with hw's? thats like me saying since my 6yr. old brother beat up all other 6yr. olds, and if i beat him up then it means i'm the best fighter of all time! what kind of logic is that? and forgetaboutit, holmes was old, he was not in his prime. he was scared of tyson, and he could not do anything. gerry cooney was a junky by the time spinks fought him, so that makes no sense, that's like saying larry holmes is the greatest fighter of all time, since he beat ali, when ali had parkinson's and was on drugs.

liston crushed HOF'ers in their primes like patterson twice, williams twice, folley, machen, etc. tyson never beat a great HW fighter in their prime, unless you want to call spinks a hw. so your argument is just plain trash.

and?? he still had power. and what i was tryin to refer to spinks is many ppl regarded him very highly. of his skill in that time period. many ppl had him beating tyson even
:eek:

Yogi
02-08-2006, 11:35 PM
liston crushed HOF'ers in their primes like patterson twice, williams twice, folley, machen, etc.

Again I ask...What boxing HOF are Williams, Folley and Machen a part of?

Dempsey 1919
02-08-2006, 11:49 PM
Again I ask...What boxing HOF are Williams, Folley and Machen a part of?

well, they should be HOF'ers.

Dempsey 1919
02-08-2006, 11:49 PM
and?? he still had power. and what i was tryin to refer to spinks is many ppl regarded him very highly. of his skill in that time period. many ppl had him beating tyson even
:eek:

plus cooney had a weak chin.

Kid Achilles
02-09-2006, 02:21 AM
I never said Liston had a better career than Mike overall or would beat him in a fight. I said his opposition before winning the title was better which is a true statement. In fact, Liston had one of the best pre-title runs of any heavyweight champion: he absolutely demolished everyone in his sight. The result of Liston-Patterson was pretty much a forgone conclusion and everyone knew that Sonny would obliterate Floyd; they only hoped he wouldn't kill him.

I don't know how I can possibly get it through all of your heads how dangerous and respected Liston in his prime was. People were comparing him to Jack Dempsey and Joe Louis (which no one ever said about Foreman). He wasn't afraid of anyone, he fought every viable contender in his way to the title, ducked no man, and knocked most of them out. He was quick, powerful, tough as hell, and had very good head movement. He was a slower Mike Tyson, but he was taller, rangier and physically much stronger.

Also I don't care what anyone says about the Ali fights, Liston had heart. The guy fought on with a broken jaw early in his career (and still lost by only a split decision while fighting in severe pain). Tyson never did anything of the sort. Tyson didn't have half the heart or inner strength of Sonny Liston.

Liston quit against Ali because he was fed up with boxing and fed up with his life. He had a miserable time since the day he was born (in the worst kind of povery, with over twenty siblings) and saw boxing as a road to success and happiness. He got the success, but the happiness was never there for him.

No one respected him, they just feared him. The guy only wanted to be treated like a human being of worth and distinction but instead he just got gawked at. Everyone, black and white, saw him as a grotesque monster. So at the point that Ali got to him, yeah he was depressed and fed up with it all. He had no heart then, I'll agree with you on that. But that wasn't Sonny Liston any more than the Tyson who quit against Williams and McBride was Mike Tyson.

Liston in his prime was without a doubt a top ten heavyweight and IMO a greater fighter (in terms of head to head matchup and actual skill and talent) than George Foreman. Foreman arguably accomplished more when you factor in his comeback but I think he was easier to outbox and is given far too much slack in his losses to Ali and Young. A prime Liston had more skill, both defensively and offensively, and much better stamina. This forum is high on Foreman because he's a nicer guy but the truth is that Sonny was a bigger badass and a better all around boxer.

hellfire508
02-09-2006, 08:29 AM
Anyone who beats Cleveland Williams twice, Eddie Machen and Zora Folley - all in their primes (or extremely close to it) - is a great fighter.

Add to that wins over quality opponents like Nino Valdes.

Add to that two first round annihalations of a top 20 heavyweight HOFer in Floyd Patterson, and you have yourself an ATG heavyweight.

Liston was the most feared fighter of all time - and with his boxing skills and punching power, this is rightfully so.

He is looked down upon because of his losses to Ali. Give the man his dues.

Verstyle
02-09-2006, 08:36 AM
plus cooney had a weak chin.


versus ****in michael spinks come on now. :rolleyes:

Verstyle
02-09-2006, 08:39 AM
I never said Liston had a better career than Mike overall or would beat him in a fight. I said his opposition before winning the title was better which is a true statement. In fact, Liston had one of the best pre-title runs of any heavyweight champion: he absolutely demolished everyone in his sight. The result of Liston-Patterson was pretty much a forgone conclusion and everyone knew that Sonny would obliterate Floyd; they only hoped he wouldn't kill him.

I don't know how I can possibly get it through all of your heads how dangerous and respected Liston in his prime was. People were comparing him to Jack Dempsey and Joe Louis (which no one ever said about Foreman). He wasn't afraid of anyone, he fought every viable contender in his way to the title, ducked no man, and knocked most of them out. He was quick, powerful, tough as hell, and had very good head movement. He was a slower Mike Tyson, but he was taller, rangier and physically much stronger.

Also I don't care what anyone says about the Ali fights, Liston had heart. The guy fought on with a broken jaw early in his career (and still lost by only a split decision while fighting in severe pain). Tyson never did anything of the sort. Tyson didn't have half the heart or inner strength of Sonny Liston.

Liston quit against Ali because he was fed up with boxing and fed up with his life. He had a miserable time since the day he was born (in the worst kind of povery, with over twenty siblings) and saw boxing as a road to success and happiness. He got the success, but the happiness was never there for him.

No one respected him, they just feared him. The guy only wanted to be treated like a human being of worth and distinction but instead he just got gawked at. Everyone, black and white, saw him as a grotesque monster. So at the point that Ali got to him, yeah he was depressed and fed up with it all. He had no heart then, I'll agree with you on that. But that wasn't Sonny Liston any more than the Tyson who quit against Williams and McBride was Mike Tyson.

Liston in his prime was without a doubt a top ten heavyweight and IMO a greater fighter (in terms of head to head matchup and actual skill and talent) than George Foreman. Foreman arguably accomplished more when you factor in his comeback but I think he was easier to outbox and is given far too much slack in his losses to Ali and Young. A prime Liston had more skill, both defensively and offensively, and much better stamina. This forum is high on Foreman because he's a nicer guy but the truth is that Sonny was a bigger badass and a better all around boxer.


in what era in years wise did liston demolish every1 to become undisputed champ :)

The_One77
02-09-2006, 11:12 AM
Sonny is overrated, weak competition whose records were padded full of bums.

The_One77
02-09-2006, 11:14 AM
i love the old timers who think people like Dempsey and Jim Jeffries could beat people like Lewis and Tyson ;)
They crack me up

moondog0
02-09-2006, 11:24 AM
Yeah, it's like Butterfly calling me a moron because I don't kiss Liston's ass like the history books do. I like to do my own thinking, Liston quit in the Clay fight and pretended he got knocked out by a phantom punch, he was a mob champion and will get no respect for quitting in the ring to a young Cassius Clay, so kiss my ass Butterfly, you want a be Liston ass kisser...

The Noose
02-09-2006, 01:23 PM
in what era in years wise did liston demolish every1 to become undisputed champ :)

I dont understand that loaded question?

Dempsey 1919
02-09-2006, 01:41 PM
Yeah, it's like Butterfly calling me a moron because I don't kiss Liston's ass like the history books do. I like to do my own thinking, Liston quit in the Clay fight and pretended he got knocked out by a phantom punch, he was a mob champion and will get no respect for quitting in the ring to a young Cassius Clay, so kiss my ass Butterfly, you want a be Liston ass kisser...

i'm not even talking about liston, i'm talking about the other idiotic posts you made on this forum.

moondog0
02-09-2006, 01:50 PM
Good comeback Butterfly, that's why this forum works, people have different opinions on subjects,yours just happens to be wrong most of the time....

Dempsey 1919
02-09-2006, 01:54 PM
Good comeback Butterfly, that's why this forum works, people have different opinions on subjects,yours just happens to be wrong most of the time....

i think the posts you make are more "wrong" than mine. all that crap you said about ali just shocked me! what, are you joe frazier or something?

Verstyle
02-09-2006, 02:07 PM
I dont understand that loaded question?


he was saying that liston dominated his fighters. and im asking in what error did this happen?? ali pretty much had 60s and 70s

Dempsey 1919
02-09-2006, 02:10 PM
he was saying that liston dominated his fighters. and im asking in what error did this happen?? ali pretty much had 60s and 70s

1958-1964!

RockyMarcianofan00
02-09-2006, 04:18 PM
Who did Marciano fight? He fought three good fighters far beyond their prime, although walcott put up a real good performance. Would Marciano be so highly regarded if he had one loss on his resume? But when the competiton is crap, you should be able to see past this and look at the fighters capability... Rocky was still a great and so was Liston. Liston beat machen, williams etc good fighters whom are underrated and most know little about them. Liston had good very good boxing skills, was powerful, and smart in the ring... he cleaned up an entire division before loosing to clay and he is rightfully considered a great.

Rocky's Competition wasn't as crappy as everyone says
look at this link

http://www.********boxing.com/news.php?p=4488&more=1

where the stars are put
e
a
s
t
s
i
d
e

sry for the retarted spelling only way i could get the letters in

but as for the topic i think liston was strong and had some good fights but if it wasn't for ali i think his name wouldn't be as regarded but then again if he hadn't fought ali he may have beat a different big name and had fame who knows

trying to prevent this thread from being


:hijacked:
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Kid Achilles
02-09-2006, 04:58 PM
Ali pretty much had the leftovers from when Liston was done with them. The guys who Liston knocked out in their primes, Ali fought when they were over the hill. Ali did beat some good fighters in the sixties but most of his biggest wins against prime opponents came when he was passed his own prime (ironically enough), in the 1970's. Liston was more impressive in the 60's than Ali IMO in terms of who he beat and how good they were when he beat them.

Dempsey 1919
02-09-2006, 05:07 PM
Ali pretty much had the leftovers from when Liston was done with them. The guys who Liston knocked out in their primes, Ali fought when they were over the hill. Ali did beat some good fighters in the sixties but most of his biggest wins against prime opponents came when he was passed his own prime (ironically enough), in the 1970's. Liston was more impressive in the 60's than Ali IMO in terms of who he beat and how good they were when he beat them.

that's why liston's so underrated, cause ali beat him. if they didn't fight, sonny would hve been champ for at least 7 years!

RockyMarcianofan00
02-09-2006, 05:16 PM
well alot of fighters are like that

look at Rex Layne had he not fought Rocky he'd probably eventually have had a title shot and may have won but after he fought Rocky he basically like disappeared

so alot of fighters are like that

-he was favorite to win that fight
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Dempsey 1919
02-09-2006, 05:21 PM
well alot of fighters are like that

look at Rex Layne had he not fought Rocky he'd probably eventually have had a title shot and may have won but after he fought Rocky he basically like disappeared

so alot of fighters are like that

-he was favorite to win that fight

layne wouldn't have beaten liston.

RockyMarcianofan00
02-09-2006, 05:27 PM
i didn't say that i said alot fighters were good but weren't recognized for what they did they were just recognized for who they got beat by
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Dempsey 1919
02-09-2006, 05:28 PM
i didn't say that i said alot fighters were good but weren't recognized for what they did they were just recognized for who they got beat by

oh,... ok.

Yogi
02-09-2006, 09:28 PM
well, they should be HOF'ers.

Only in your "Ali is the center of the boxing universe" mindset that you have displayed time after time, after time, after time...In the real world, if Machen, Williams and Folley are all HOF worthy then the HOF would be wide open to a whole ****load of very good contenders that have frequented the boxing scene from all eras & divisions. They'd have to at least triple the total number of inductees into the HOF if fighters like that are worthy, which would then only make it a MUCH bigger laughing stock that it has been as of late (due to what are precived as unworthy inductees as of late).

RAESAAD
02-09-2006, 09:30 PM
Liston broke Knees for the Mafia, :cool:

Dempsey 1919
02-09-2006, 10:06 PM
Only in your "Ali is the center of the boxing universe" mindset that you have displayed time after time, after time, after time...In the real world, if Machen, Williams and Folley are all HOF worthy then the HOF would be wide open to a whole ****load of very good contenders that have frequented the boxing scene from all eras & divisions. They'd have to at least triple the total number of inductees into the HOF if fighters like that are worthy, which would then only make it a MUCH bigger laughing stock that it has been as of late (due to what are precived as unworthy inductees as of late).

but at least folley should, cause he was a top ranking contender for years.

Verstyle
03-03-2006, 02:07 AM
but at least folley should, cause he was a top ranking contender for years.


ive seen folley fight he's not all that bad

SuzieQ49
03-03-2006, 02:36 AM
good topic lets keep this going.


the only mistakes i seen kid achilles and hellfire make in there excellent posts was regarding nino valdes.

this was not a quality win. when liston fought valdes, valdes was way beyond his prime and not even a top 10 fighter anymore. Valdez had recently been knocked out by charley powell and lost to alonzo johnson.


valdes himself said

"Being hit by Liston, was like being kicked by a mule. By the time I fought Liston I was way over the hill. I hit him a couple of solid shots and he did not buckle. Sonny was the strongest man I ever fought and he was very tough. When I fought him I still could hit very hard but my reflexes were not there anymore."



i guess the one positive thing from this fight you can use in listons case is listons ability to take a punch. valdes still hit hard and sonny was able to take his best.

hellfire508
03-03-2006, 02:43 AM
good topic lets keep this going.


the only mistakes i seen kid achilles and hellfire make in there excellent posts was regarding nino valdes.

this was not a quality win. when liston fought valdes, valdes was way beyond his prime and not even a top 10 fighter anymore. Valdez had recently been knocked out by charley powell and lost to alonzo johnson.


valdes himself said

"Being hit by Liston, was like being kicked by a mule. By the time I fought Liston I was way over the hill. I hit him a couple of solid shots and he did not buckle. Sonny was the strongest man I ever fought and he was very tough. When I fought him I still could hit very hard but my reflexes were not there anymore."



i guess the one positive thing from this fight you can use in listons case is listons ability to take a punch. valdes still hit hard and sonny was able to take his best.

I've never investigated that, thanks for the heads up.

abdiel2k3
03-03-2006, 03:02 AM
i always say this when this arguement comes up
WHO HAS HE BEAT?
its not always who hes beat
sometimes
its how hes beaten people

Yaman
03-03-2006, 08:46 AM
If every boxer of today had the whole mob taking care of your fights, you would become very great indeed.

Dempsey 1919
03-03-2006, 03:49 PM
If every boxer of today had the whole mob taking care of your fights, you would become very great indeed.

the mob did not take care of his fights. he won those fights on his own.

Southpaw Stinger
03-03-2006, 03:50 PM
If every boxer of today had the whole mob taking care of your fights, you would become very great indeed.

The mob doesn't have any influence in boxing today. It's quite sad really, they could spice things up a bit!

Yogi
03-03-2006, 05:46 PM
the mob did not take care of his fights. he won those fights on his own.

Besides the Ali rematch which went against Liston, I've personally never seen anything "funny" going on in his other fights and I've seen a decent amount of him during the late 50's/early 60's (Patterson x2, Ali x2, Williams, Machen, Whitehurst, Bethea...I think that's about it from that time).

Verstyle
03-04-2006, 12:19 AM
see proof he really didnt fight ne 1. alot of ppl on here rate him higher then tyson :eek: i dont know if its jumping on the bandwagon cause some1 else said he was good. hell im clueless. and ok he punched hard. how many fighters did he knockout silly

El Cholo
03-04-2006, 12:28 AM
Id say its easy to look back at a fighter from 50 years ago and say "Who did he fight?"

Many boxing experts, who were around to see him fight and all the champions since then still consider Liston to be without question an all time great.

His record is great and the manner of his victories speak for themselves.http://www.boxrec.com/boxer_display.php?boxer_id=009031

Tyson himself regards Liston as an incredible heavyweight.

His record was impresive.
Does anyone think any of todays heavyweights could walk through Patterson in 1 round?

Verstyle
03-04-2006, 12:30 AM
His record was impresive.
Does anyone think any of todays heavyweights could walk through Patterson in 1 round?


well then of course not. but still they make it seem like hes top 10 greatest ever

SuzieQ49
03-04-2006, 12:57 AM
His record was impresive.
Does anyone think any of todays heavyweights could walk through Patterson in 1 round?


patterson would beat any heavyweight today

Dempsey 1919
03-04-2006, 01:16 AM
well then of course not. but still they make it seem like hes top 10 greatest ever

uhhmmm, because he is. seriously, if tyson is a top ten hw, then to be fair liston has to be. he did the same thing, if not more than tyson did.

Verstyle
03-04-2006, 01:27 AM
uhhmmm, because he is. seriously, if tyson is a top ten hw, then to be fair liston has to be. he did the same thing, if not more than tyson did.


as in? please inform me what he did more then tyson :rolleyes:

Dempsey 1919
03-04-2006, 02:03 AM
as in? please inform me what he did more then tyson :rolleyes:

he wasn't beating up on past their prime hw's, and he wasn't beating up on lhw's either. :D

Verstyle
03-04-2006, 03:07 AM
he wasn't beating up on past their prime hw's, and he wasn't beating up on lhw's either. :D


u sure about that? r u stating that as a fact. THE PRESSURE IS ON!! :D

Dempsey 1919
03-04-2006, 01:39 PM
u sure about that? r u stating that as a fact. THE PRESSURE IS ON!! :D

you are underestimating liston too much. i mean i would rather be beat by muhammad ali, then buster douglass. :D

SuzieQ49
03-04-2006, 10:32 PM
he wasn't beating up on past their prime hw's, and he wasn't beating up on lhw's either. :D


who did tyson beat that was past there prime?


berbick and williams were better and more experienced fighters when they fought tyson than when they fought holmes



michael spinx a light-H? he was 212lb for the tyson fight, hardly a light-H. and michael spinx light-H or not was still the best heavyweight in the world outside of tyson, and he was the first man to beat holmes(old or not).

Dempsey 1919
03-04-2006, 11:22 PM
who did tyson beat that was past there prime?


berbick and williams were better and more experienced fighters when they fought tyson than when they fought holmes



michael spinx a light-H? he was 212lb for the tyson fight, hardly a light-H. and michael spinx light-H or not was still the best heavyweight in the world outside of tyson, and he was the first man to beat holmes(old or not).

when i said past their prime, i meant larry holmes. and spinks is a natural lhw. that means he basically has a lhw punch and a lhw chin. he wasn't a true hw.

SuzieQ49
03-05-2006, 01:58 AM
just because he fought at 175lb doesnt mean he had a light-H punch and chin.


bob satterfield was basically a light-H, yet he had a heavyweights punch. in fact, he was one of the best all time heavyweight punchers.



just because ur 175lb doesnt mean u cant take a heavyweights punch or knockout heavies. it depends on if your power and chin carries with you up to heavy.


in michael spinx case, his power did not. however his chin did.

Verstyle
03-05-2006, 02:03 AM
you are underestimating liston too much. i mean i would rather be beat by muhammad ali, then buster douglass. :D


im still waiting for your point. dont dodge it :rolleyes:

Verstyle
03-05-2006, 02:04 AM
just because he fought at 175lb doesnt mean he had a light-H punch and chin.


bob satterfield was basically a light-H, yet he had a heavyweights punch. in fact, he was one of the best all time heavyweight punchers.



just because ur 175lb doesnt mean u cant take a heavyweights punch or knockout heavies. it depends on if your power and chin carries with you up to heavy.


in michael spinx case, his power did not. however his chin did.


you'll never get to him i swear u wont

Yaman
03-05-2006, 08:22 AM
im still waiting for your point. dont dodge it :rolleyes:


Well, he knows you're right.

SuzieQ49
03-05-2006, 05:36 PM
Who did Marciano fight? He fought three good fighters far beyond their prime, although walcott put up a real good performance. Would Marciano be so highly regarded if he had one loss on his resume? But when the competiton is crap, you should be able to see past this and look at the fighters capability... Rocky was still a great and so was Liston. Liston beat machen, williams etc good fighters whom are underrated and most know little about them. Liston had good very good boxing skills, was powerful, and smart in the ring... he cleaned up an entire division before loosing to clay and he is rightfully considered a great.

what does marciano have to do with this thread? :confused:



and to answer your question......... rocky beat 3 great fighters in archie moore, jersey joe walcott, ezzard charles and he beat very good dangerous top contenders like roland lastarza, old joe louis, and rex layne.






Liston beat machen, williams etc good fighters whom are underrated and most know little about them.


partially agree. however, i think people know a good deal about machen and williams, since they come around ali's era. they certainly are not underated or as understudied as a guy like elmer ray.







He fought three good fighters far beyond their prime

I disagree with this statement.

SuzieQ49
03-05-2006, 05:39 PM
floyd patterson x2
cleveland williams x2
zora folley
eddie machen

all HOF'ers!


im confused :confused: :confused:


williams, folley, machen arn't hall of famers. did you make a mistake?

RockyMarcianofan00
03-05-2006, 05:39 PM
once again i will post this link for the ignorant people that think Rocky's competition was crap

http://www.********boxing.com/news.php?p=4488&more=1

where the stars are put
e
a
s
t
s
i
d
e

SuzieQ49
03-05-2006, 05:42 PM
the link doesnt work..........


anyone that wants an in depth assessment of marcianos competition(including his early opponents) ask for it, and i will give you one.

just because people dont think marcianos competition was good doesnt mean they are ignorant. it depends on there reasoning for why they think it is bad which make them ignorant. If I wanted too, I could make marcianos competiton look very overated and I could use good info as to why.


40s-50s heavyweights is one of the most understudied eras in history, so usually people critizize louis ,walcott, charles marcianos competiton before even realizing some of the unknown names on there resume who were quality fighters.


marciano did not beat good depth/quantity compared to other great heavy champs. there are many reasons as to why. this quantity/depth issue is MY biggest critsism of him. however, marciano did beat very good quality. quality over quantity.


but this isnt the thread to talk about marciano, so lets stick to the subject of this interesting thread

RockyMarcianofan00
03-05-2006, 05:48 PM
http://www.********boxing.com/news.php?p=4488&more=1

where the stars are but
east side with not spaces

just copy the link and put it in the address bar, erase the stars and put east side

but your right this is a thread about liston

SuzieQ49
03-05-2006, 05:51 PM
http://www.********boxing.com/news.php?p=4488&more=1

where the stars are but
east side with not spaces

just copy the link and put it in the address bar, erase the stars and put east side

but your right this is a thread about liston


of my fault, I take back what I said earlier. i thought this was from bobby beardons website.

this is an article wrote by james saddler, this is a good one.



only mistake I see is regarding carmine vingo. the article incorrectley states Vingo as being "220lb". vingo in fact was 6'4 190-200lb during his very short career.

SuzieQ49
03-05-2006, 06:03 PM
Listons pre title competition was excellent. he virtually wiped out the whole divisions top contenders excluding harold johnson(who was campaigning for light-H title only at the time). the only top heavyweight contenders he didnt fight was archie moore(who by now was in his decline) and ingemar johanssen(who wanted no part of liston).


patterson victories were incredible. the fact both fights were 1 round dominations should defintley be given extra empathis on the quality of victory. patterson is very underated today, I think hes a top 20 heavyweight of all time. patterson was also hard to put down for the 10 count(in fact only liston was able to accomplish this feat TWICE). blowing away an all time great like patterson twice is something that is defintley a big deal. Patterson did adopt a bad game plan in the fight because he froze up and started to brawl, but thats all part of the game right?

by charles farrell:

I asked Floyd who the hardest puncher he’d ever faced was. I thought I knew the answer. But Patterson surprised me.

“Ingemar Johansson.”

“But Floyd, you fought Liston twice. Ingemar Johansson?”

Floyd smiled his characteristic self-deprecating smile. “Oh, but when I fought Ingemar, I thought I was going to win.”


Henry Cooper’s manager was quoted as saying, “If we saw Sonny Liston coming, we’d quickly cross the street.”








certain champions like liston, should not be penalized for his lack of title defenses since he cleaned up the division pre title plus he ran into muhammad ali.





eddie machen and cleveland williams IMO are both top 50 heavyweights of all time. Liston beat them both decisevley. He blew away cleveland williams twice, and no contender at the time wanted to fight williams. He then easily outboxed a master boxer in eddie machen over 12 good paced rounds, proving he could not only score knockouts, but could also outbox and outpoint world class fighters.

"if I had one weak spot anywhere, in my body, my chin, or my heart, it wouldve showed up with all the whuppin' he put on me in the first round. But I was never really hurt bad, no matter how it looked. I knew what was going on. Even before I sat down, I was thinkin to myself 'this cat's gotta put it to me like that for 9 more rounds to win this fight, and I don't think he can do it.' " - Sonny Liston talks about first cleveland williams fight





Zora Folley is another very good heavyweight who ranks along with machen and williams, but i rank folley victory slightly lower. folley had a glass jaw, and was knocked out 4 times in his prime by lighthitters(jones)/or B level fighters(summerlin,young jack johnson,alejandro lavorante). I think because of this, it made folley much more vunerable against a guy like liston. still, liston had to penetrate through folleys excellent defense and boxing skills to score the Knockout.


the next crop of heavies he beat pre title were good top 10 contenders like

hard hittting 6'3 205lb mike de john who liston destroyed in 6 one sided rounds in one of the best preformances of his career.

"one of the most brutal outpourings of punishment in recent heavyweight history."- miami herald on liston-de john fight

De john called liston "the hardest hitter I ever faced".


6' 205lb wayne bethea- this was perhaps listons peak fight. he literally went out there showing speed we never seen before and destroyed bethea in 58 seconds. it was the ONLY time bethea was ever stopped in his career. Bethea had never even been down before this fight.


6'3 215lb nino valdes- valdes was past his prime but not shot. valdes still had his full power, and was still a dangerous fringe contender.

6' 195lb Roy Harris- this fight was so one sided, outclass would be an understatement to describe this fight. harris was 30-1 with his only loss coming to patterson. liston made harris look like a 2nd rate amatuer, and liston could have really hurt him if he wanted too, but eased off in the end.


albert westphal declared liston "the best fighter i ever saw." when the reporter asked westphal if he would like to fight liston again, westhphal said "no."



Nino valdes said "being hit by liston was like being kicked by a mule. Sonny was the strongest man I ever fought and he is very tough."


so if i break it down


liston beat a great heavyweight: Floyd Patterson 2x

Liston beat very good dangerous top contenders: Eddie Machen, Cleveland Williams, Zora Folley


Liston beat good top 10 contender heavyweights or B level contenders: Roy Harris, Mike De John, Wayne Bethea, past his prime nino valdes, Marty Marshall


Liston beat a good set of fringe contenders/top journeyman: Albert Westphal, Johnny Summerlin, Bert Whitehurst, Willie Besmanoff, Howard King, Amos "big train" lincoln, Chuck Wepner, Henry Clark, Gerhard Zech




thats a very solid resume

Dempsey 1919
03-06-2006, 02:36 AM
Listons pre title competition was excellent. he virtually wiped out the whole divisions top contenders excluding harold johnson(who was campaigning for light-H title only at the time). the only top heavyweight contenders he didnt fight was archie moore(who by now was in his decline) and ingemar johanssen(who wanted no part of liston).


patterson victories were incredible. the fact both fights were 1 round dominations should defintley be given extra empathis on the quality of victory. patterson is very underated today, I think hes a top 20 heavyweight of all time. patterson was also hard to put down for the 10 count(in fact only liston was able to accomplish this feat TWICE). blowing away an all time great like patterson twice is something that is defintley a big deal. Patterson did adopt a bad game plan in the fight because he froze up and started to brawl, but thats all part of the game right?

by charles farrell:

I asked Floyd who the hardest puncher he’d ever faced was. I thought I knew the answer. But Patterson surprised me.

“Ingemar Johansson.”

“But Floyd, you fought Liston twice. Ingemar Johansson?”

Floyd smiled his characteristic self-deprecating smile. “Oh, but when I fought Ingemar, I thought I was going to win.”


Henry Cooper’s manager was quoted as saying, “If we saw Sonny Liston coming, we’d quickly cross the street.”








certain champions like liston, should not be penalized for his lack of title defenses since he cleaned up the division pre title plus he ran into muhammad ali.





eddie machen and cleveland williams IMO are both top 50 heavyweights of all time. Liston beat them both decisevley. He blew away cleveland williams twice, and no contender at the time wanted to fight williams. He then easily outboxed a master boxer in eddie machen over 12 good paced rounds, proving he could not only score knockouts, but could also outbox and outpoint world class fighters.

"if I had one weak spot anywhere, in my body, my chin, or my heart, it wouldve showed up with all the whuppin' he put on me in the first round. But I was never really hurt bad, no matter how it looked. I knew what was going on. Even before I sat down, I was thinkin to myself 'this cat's gotta put it to me like that for 9 more rounds to win this fight, and I don't think he can do it.' " - Sonny Liston talks about first cleveland williams fight





Zora Folley is another very good heavyweight who ranks along with machen and williams, but i rank folley victory slightly lower. folley had a glass jaw, and was knocked out 4 times in his prime by lighthitters(jones)/or B level fighters(summerlin,young jack johnson,alejandro lavorante). I think because of this, it made folley much more vunerable against a guy like liston. still, liston had to penetrate through folleys excellent defense and boxing skills to score the Knockout.


the next crop of heavies he beat pre title were good top 10 contenders like

hard hittting 6'3 205lb mike de john who liston destroyed in 6 one sided rounds in one of the best preformances of his career.

"one of the most brutal outpourings of punishment in recent heavyweight history."- miami herald on liston-de john fight

De john called liston "the hardest hitter I ever faced".


6' 205lb wayne bethea- this was perhaps listons peak fight. he literally went out there showing speed we never seen before and destroyed bethea in 58 seconds. it was the ONLY time bethea was ever stopped in his career. Bethea had never even been down before this fight.


6'3 215lb nino valdes- valdes was past his prime but not shot. valdes still had his full power, and was still a dangerous fringe contender.

6' 195lb Roy Harris- this fight was so one sided, outclass would be an understatement to describe this fight. harris was 30-1 with his only loss coming to patterson. liston made harris look like a 2nd rate amatuer, and liston could have really hurt him if he wanted too, but eased off in the end.


albert westphal declared liston "the best fighter i ever saw." when the reporter asked westphal if he would like to fight liston again, westhphal said "no."



Nino valdes said "being hit by liston was like being kicked by a mule. Sonny was the strongest man I ever fought and he is very tough."


so if i break it down


liston beat a great heavyweight: Floyd Patterson 2x

Liston beat very good dangerous top contenders: Eddie Machen, Cleveland Williams, Zora Folley


Liston beat good top 10 contender heavyweights or B level contenders: Roy Harris, Mike De John, Wayne Bethea, past his prime nino valdes, Marty Marshall


Liston beat a good set of fringe contenders/top journeyman: Albert Westphal, Johnny Summerlin, Bert Whitehurst, Willie Besmanoff, Howard King, Amos "big train" lincoln, Chuck Wepner, Henry Clark, Gerhard Zech




thats a very solid resume

nice post. ain't no shame in losing to muhammad ali.

Yaman
03-06-2006, 09:39 AM
Loosing to Ali aint that bad. Quitting on your mother****ing stool in the half of the fight is bad.

Dempsey 1919
03-06-2006, 02:07 PM
Loosing to Ali aint that bad. Quitting on your mother****ing stool in the half of the fight is bad.

he had a torn shoulder.

Southpaw Stinger
03-06-2006, 02:32 PM
Dropping the second fight was a nightmare!

SuzieQ49
03-07-2006, 03:01 AM
what does everyone here think of liston's win resume?


where does listons win resume rate with other heavyweight champions?

Da Iceman
03-07-2006, 03:09 PM
lets see liston fought patterson, and thats about it, floyd is a all time great so if liston beat him i guess he is great.

Dempsey 1919
03-07-2006, 03:23 PM
lets see liston fought patterson, and thats about it, floyd is a all time great so if liston beat him i guess he is great.

he's definetely better than tyson.

Southpaw Stinger
03-07-2006, 03:26 PM
he's definetely better than tyson.

Definatly, Liston was a great fighter!

Verstyle
04-05-2006, 01:53 AM
he's definetely better than tyson.


patterson aint better then tyson if thats who u were talkin about. or evn if u were talkin about liston your dead ****in wrong there also ;)

mokele
04-05-2006, 02:15 AM
Id say its easy to look back at a fighter from 50 years ago and say "Who did he fight?"

Many boxing experts, who were around to see him fight and all the champions since then still consider Liston to be without question an all time great.

His record is great and the manner of his victories speak for themselves.http://www.boxrec.com/boxer_display.php?boxer_id=009031

Tyson himself regards Liston as an incredible heavyweight.

What is generally unknown is that Sonny Liston was still very good after he lost the 2nd fight with Ali. He won his next 14 fights in a row and several of his opponents were good heavyweights like Gerhard Zech, Henry Clark, Amos Johnson and Amos "big train" Lincoln. I wish I could remember the fights of Liston's that I saw during the twilight of his career. I was only a kid but I saw a few. I missed his devastating loss to Leotis Martin though. Liston was 37 years old during that fight, and his legs were long since gone. His jab was still serious though and his power had not disappeared right until the end.

Dempsey 1919
04-05-2006, 02:45 AM
patterson aint better then tyson if thats who u were talkin about. or evn if u were talkin about liston your dead ****in wrong there also ;)

did i say patterson? no, i meant liston.

Verstyle
04-05-2006, 12:38 PM
did i say patterson? no, i meant liston.


i did saw either or. but hell no liston aint better then tyson. liston reminds me of. ROOOOOOOOOOCKY MARCIANOOOOOOOOO(in slow motion)!!!! oops did i say the forbidden words to butterfly1964 :D

smasher
04-05-2006, 12:44 PM
liston reminds me of. ROOOOOOOOOOCKY MARCIANOOOOOOOOO :D
Yeah pretty ****in close except the circumference of Liston's fist was about the size of Marciano's thigh...

Dempsey 1919
04-05-2006, 12:45 PM
Yeah pretty ****in close except the circumference of Liston's fist was about the size of Marciano's thigh...

haha, lol!

Dempsey 1919
04-05-2006, 12:47 PM
i did saw either or. but hell no liston aint better then tyson. liston reminds me of. ROOOOOOOOOOCKY MARCIANOOOOOOOOO(in slow motion)!!!! oops did i say the forbidden words to butterfly1964 :D

liston is much faster than rocky and at least he managed to ko patterson in one round(twice), something marciano couldn't do to charles, walcott, and moore who are all worse fighters than patterson.

RockyMarcianofan00
04-05-2006, 12:50 PM
Sonny Liston was a good fighter but looking at other fighters i'm not sure you can put him in your top 10
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c49/IrishInsomniac00/other%20boxing%20pictures/liston-sized.jpg

Verstyle
04-05-2006, 12:50 PM
liston is much faster than rocky and at least he managed to ko patterson in one round(twice), something marciano couldn't do to charles, walcott, and moore who are all worse fighters than patterson.


they still remind me of each other :)

RockyMarcianofan00
04-05-2006, 12:58 PM
now you can't say Patterson was worse or better then those guys because the reason that Liston got patterson in one round is because Patterson came in swarming and patterson got ktfo. If you did that against Marciano it would have the same out come allthe other guys boxed him because they knew not to come in or they'd be out

Dempsey 1919
04-05-2006, 01:01 PM
Sonny Liston was a good fighter but looking at other fighters i'm not sure you can put him in your top 10
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c49/IrishInsomniac00/other%20boxing%20pictures/liston-sized.jpg

name ten hw that could beat a prime liston.

Yaman
04-05-2006, 01:16 PM
name ten hw that could beat a prime liston.


Foreman, Ali, Tyson, Lewis, Louis, Dempsey, Marciano, Holmes, Bowe and even Holyfield could beat him.

JDizzle79
04-05-2006, 01:17 PM
I would question tyson and bowe from that list

Yaman
04-05-2006, 01:19 PM
I would question tyson and bowe from that list


Liston was knocked out in 1 round.

JDizzle79
04-05-2006, 01:21 PM
Liston was knocked out in 1 round.

by arguably the greatest boxer in history. you gotta come with something better than that. Bowe sounds punch drunk all the time and tyson has quit a fight before...I don't recall liston ever not answering a bell

Dempsey 1919
04-05-2006, 01:21 PM
Foreman, Ali, Tyson, Lewis, Louis, Dempsey, Marciano, Holmes, Bowe and even Holyfield could beat him.

the ones in bold has absolutely nochance of beating him, period.

Dempsey 1919
04-05-2006, 01:22 PM
Liston was knocked out in 1 round.

you mean took a dive little child.

RockyMarcianofan00
04-05-2006, 01:22 PM
obviously Ali
Foreman
Marciano
Frazier
i'd arguabley say Dempsey
Louis
Holmes
Tyson probably
possibly Shavers

thats ten i believe

Verstyle
04-05-2006, 01:23 PM
by arguably the greatest boxer in history. you gotta come with something better than that. Bowe sounds punch drunk all the time and tyson has quit a fight before...I don't recall liston ever not answering a bell


the first fight. with ali. that ****er could have continued fighting. and usually when we talk about fantasy matchups there in there primes. and tyson never quit in his prime

JDizzle79
04-05-2006, 01:23 PM
obviously Ali
Foreman
Marciano
Frazier
i'd arguabley say Dempsey
Louis
Holmes
Tyson probably
possibly Shavers

thats ten i believe
SHAVERS!!!! WHAT!!! He's just like briggs...hard puncher but fights like a ****ing robot

RockyMarcianofan00
04-05-2006, 01:24 PM
the ones in bold has absolutely nochance of beating him, period.
which is bull i like how you highlighted all the ones you don't like and don't even give them a shot

Louis because people rate him above Ali, Marciano you just hate, etc

Dempsey 1919
04-05-2006, 01:24 PM
obviously Ali
Foreman
Marciano
Frazier
i'd arguabley say Dempsey
Louis
Holmes
Tyson probably
possibly Shavers
thats ten i believe

shavers? are you ****ing insane? a washed up jerry quarry knocked shavers out in one round, but he could beat liston? think before you post, period. :cool:

RockyMarcianofan00
04-05-2006, 01:24 PM
SHAVERS!!!! WHAT!!! He's just like briggs...hard puncher but fights like a ****ing robot
which is why i said possibly
i wasn't sure he could land a lucky shot
but whatever i take it back

Verstyle
04-05-2006, 01:24 PM
the ones in bold has absolutely nochance of beating him, period.

no chance for tyson my ass. like u tell me u need to watch tyson vs. pinklon thomas. which argueably had the hardest jab second to liston. and see how elusive tyson was after he threw his combos and all the angles he went to throw them

Dempsey 1919
04-05-2006, 01:25 PM
which is bull i like how you highlighted all the ones you don't like and don't even give them a shot

Louis because people rate him above Ali, Marciano you just hate, etc

no, i just don't think they have a chance, that's all.

JDizzle79
04-05-2006, 01:25 PM
the first fight. with ali. that ****er could have continued fighting. and usually when we talk about fantasy matchups there in there primes. and tyson never quit in his prime

you are right about that...I believe the 80's era tyson could handle him, but post-prison tyson wouldn't

RockyMarcianofan00
04-05-2006, 01:25 PM
no chance for tyson my ass. like u tell me u need to watch tyson vs. pinklon thomas. which argueably had the hardest jab second to liston. and see how elusive tyson was after he threw his combos and all the angles he went to throw them
listen butterfly is always gunna defend Ali and his opponents then comes everyone else

RockyMarcianofan00
04-05-2006, 01:26 PM
you are right about that...I believe the 80's era tyson could handle him, but post-prison tyson wouldn't
when talking about tyson why would anybody bring him up
he wasn't nearly as good :rolleyes:

JDizzle79
04-05-2006, 01:27 PM
I'm no tyson fan but when you are the youngest HW champ ever...thas a good notch to have on you belt

Dempsey 1919
04-05-2006, 01:28 PM
no chance for tyson my ass. like u tell me u need to watch tyson vs. pinklon thomas. which argueably had the hardest jab second to liston. and see how elusive tyson was after he threw his combos and all the angles he went to throw them

ahahahahahahaha!!! pinklon thomes? did you just compare pinklon thomas to sonny ****ing liston? that's almost as worse as when you compared ali to tyrell biggs!!LMAO!!

i don't think i need to say anymore. tyson fans are desperate. :D

RockyMarcianofan00
04-05-2006, 01:30 PM
ahahahahahahaha!!! pinklon thomes? did you just compare pinklon thomas to sonny ****ing liston? that's almost as worse as when you compared ali to tyrell biggs!!LMAO!!

i don't think i need to say anymore. tyson fans are desperate. :D
Tyson aside your blowing Liston's career up
Most of his fights were in fact controlled by the mob, the only one we know for sure wasn't was Clay v Liston I and thats because Clay said that he wouldn't listen to the mob--and what happened liston got beat

Verstyle
04-05-2006, 01:30 PM
ahahahahahahaha!!! pinklon thomes? did you just compare pinklon thomas to sonny ****ing liston? that's almost as worse as when you compared ali to tyrell biggs!!LMAO!!

i don't think i need to say anymore. tyson fans are desperate. :D


damn your an idiot. i didnt say thomas was like sonny. i said his jab was. and mostly i was talking about tyson which would hint im talkin about tyson performance :rolleyes: u gotta LISTEN!!!!!!!

Yogi
04-05-2006, 01:31 PM
For some unknown reason, I feel even dumber having read the last couple of pages of this thread.

JDizzle79
04-05-2006, 01:32 PM
hahahaha, welcome to my world...my...brain...shutting..downnnn...ughh

RockyMarcianofan00
04-05-2006, 01:32 PM
For some unknown reason, I feel even dumber having read the last couple of pages of this thread.
??? :confused: :confused: :confused:

Yogi
04-05-2006, 01:33 PM
??? :confused: :confused: :confused:

Not you, Rock.

Verstyle
04-05-2006, 01:37 PM
Not you, Rock.


who u talkin about then?

Yogi
04-05-2006, 01:38 PM
who u talkin about then?

Not you either, Mystyal.

Verstyle
04-05-2006, 01:39 PM
ahahahahaha. its BUTTERFLY1964.AHAHAHAHAHA.

JDizzle79
04-05-2006, 01:41 PM
why is it always him...my iq drops like 40 points every time he posts and I accidentally read it

Verstyle
04-05-2006, 01:44 PM
why is it always him...my iq drops like 40 points every time he posts and I accidentally read it


1 thing that i dont do is blow up the fighters that tyson fought. u wont hear me saying hell trevor berbick beat ali. so that means his extremly good since he beat a legend. :rolleyes:

RockyMarcianofan00
04-05-2006, 01:45 PM
In the beginning his posts were pretty good, intelligent and not to nuthuggerish but now its like full blown stupid--nobody can beat any of Ali's opponents except Ali and other Ali opponents,

Dempsey 1919
04-05-2006, 01:45 PM
Tyson aside your blowing Liston's career up
Most of his fights were in fact controlled by the mob, the only one we know for sure wasn't was Clay v Liston I and thats because Clay said that he wouldn't listen to the mob--and what happened liston got beat

prove that his fights were controlled by the mob.

Verstyle
04-05-2006, 01:47 PM
prove that his fights were controlled by the mob.


maybe not all of them. but i've heard plenty times that some of them were

Yogi
04-05-2006, 01:47 PM
why is it always him...my iq drops like 40 points every time he posts and I accidentally read it

Butterfly has a VERY clear agenda when he posts on here, and it makes him look like a complete moron when he's constantly doing it.

JDizzle79
04-05-2006, 01:49 PM
yeah, I've kind of gotten that from him...

Yogi
04-05-2006, 01:51 PM
yeah, I've kind of gotten that from him...

****, even when he makes the odd point that I can agree with (doesn't happen all that often, though), I STILL feel dumber for having read it just because it came from him.

Dempsey 1919
04-05-2006, 01:52 PM
Butterfly has a VERY clear agenda when he posts on here, and it makes him look like a complete moron when he's constantly doing it.

yeah, keep saying that. :rolleyes: why all the hate for butterfly1964? :confused: :D

RockyMarcianofan00
04-05-2006, 01:52 PM
prove that his fights were controlled by the mob.
well i'm not saying all of them were i'm saying alot were and Ali v Liston I wasn't for sure because

Dempsey 1919
04-05-2006, 01:53 PM
yeah, I've kind of gotten that from him...

you ain't gotten nothing from me.

Dempsey 1919
04-05-2006, 01:53 PM
well i'm not saying all of them were i'm saying alot were and Ali v Liston I wasn't for sure because

so you're trying to say that alot of people could have beaten liston at that time?

JDizzle79
04-05-2006, 01:54 PM
hahahaha, well I took it from you then...you are a moron of the highest calibur do us all a favor and stop talking/posting

Dempsey 1919
04-05-2006, 01:57 PM
hahahaha, well I took it from you then...you are a moron of the highest calibur do us all a favor and stop talking/posting

i am a moron, but i know that no 180lb. small cruiserweight is gonna beat big strong 220 plus pound hw's. shut the hell up and stop trying to start **** with me.

JDizzle79
04-05-2006, 01:59 PM
i am a moron, but i know that no 180lb. small cruiserweight is gonna beat big strong 220 plus pound hw's. shut the hell up and stop trying to start **** with me.

ease off the gas speedracer...no need to blow a gasket

tommyhearns804
04-05-2006, 06:20 PM
The answer is nobody.You know why people think Liston is good?Because he is built up so when people say ALi didnt fight anybody earlier in his career they can say yeah he did he fought Liston.
Liston was a complete joke.Slow,weak a coward.And for the little kids who will say Liston was just like Foreman and either as strong or stronger or just as good as a puncher let me ask you this..how many of you fought Liston?Well all did and said Liston wasn't as hard as a puncher as Foreman,Frazier,Norton,Bonavena ect ect ect.
Liston's best win was over Patterson.A man known for having a weak chin.A man who was knocked down by other fighers in own size.So that makes Liston great right?Wrong Liston isn't even a top 50 great.Just another fighter built up to make Ali seem better than he really was.

Dempsey 1919
04-05-2006, 06:23 PM
The answer is nobody.You know why people think Liston is good?Because he is built up so when people say ALi didnt fight anybody earlier in his career they can say yeah he did he fought Liston.
Liston was a complete joke.Slow,weak a coward.And for the little kids who will say Liston was just like Foreman and either as strong or stronger or just as good as a puncher let me ask you this..how many of you fought Liston?Well all did and said Liston wasn't as hard as a puncher as Foreman,Frazier,Norton,Bonavena ect ect ect.
Liston's best win was over Patterson.A man known for having a weak chin.A man who was knocked down by other fighers in own size.So that makes Liston great right?Wrong Liston isn't even a top 50 great.Just another fighter built up to make Ali seem better than he really was.

ali never said frazier, norton and bonavena punched harder than liston. you need to get your facts straight.

liston had better skills than foreman and had faster hands.IMO liston would beat foreman in a boxing match.

Kid Achilles
04-05-2006, 08:27 PM
Actually Ali claimed that Liston hit harder than Foreman before he fought him in 74. That's the only time I know of where Ali compared their punching power for the media.

tommyhearns804
04-05-2006, 09:33 PM
Lol right ******s read the life and time of Ali.He said Foreman was the hardest puncher,Frazier was the toughest and Liston was the scariest..I am not talking about some bull**** Ali said before he fought Foreman to psyke himself out.
And Liston was more skilled?Ha give me a ****ing break.Again Ali said Foreman was the one of the quickest guys he ever faced foot speed wise.Who did Liston beat in his career that compared to Frazier,Norton,Lyle,Moorer,Briggs or even a guy like Peralta who Foreman beat 2 times?Not to mention the other really good fighers like Holyfield and Morrison who Foreman fought when he was in his 40's.
Liston has faster hands than who?Don't tell me you are one of these dick sucking ******s who worship men you never met huh?Liston had the worse hand speed of any heavyweight champion besides that joke Marciano.The only way somebody as unskilled and cowarldy as Liston would beat Foreman would be if he could bring a gun into the ring.
I know alot of you people parents probably snorted alot of coke in the 70's so it only amuses me when you try to talk about something you have no clue of.
And its nice that you like Ali butterfly but Ali was knocked down by 180 pound fighters with one punch and you know why?Because the man has a glass chin.Foreman could box if he wanted today. And your boy Ali was getting beat by the likes of Leon Spinks when he was 35 or so.But you do have a point about Marciano.The little white racist kids in here will never admit the man was a joke.In their eyes a weak slow unskilled 180 pound fighter like Marciano would knock out somebody like Tua with one punch even though Tua never been down to bigger more powerful men.But you still are a complete moron kid.
Read "The Life and Times of Ali" or whatever the book is called.And then get back with me.Ali would know more about who hits harder than you a guy who never fought Foreman,Frazier,Norton blah blah blah.Ali did and he also said Foreman had him out on his feet at least 5 times during their fight from glancing blows.He also stated that Foreman was so strong that he could barely box him and that is why he held on so much trying to tire him.Frazier knocked Ali down so that must me he punched harder.Norton beat Ali 3 times and kept him running and holding like a ***** which ment Norton must punched harder.Shavers hurt Ali big time so he must punched harder than Liston.Lyle knocked down Foreman somebody with a granite chin and the best person Liston knocked down was Patterson a guy with a glass chin and he outweighed about 30 plus pounds so logic would mean Lyle punched harder.
How else can i explain how Liston was overrated....Here retard how about this.You say Liston hits harder and was more skilled which is a load of horse **** then why does Foreman have a better winning percentage and a higher ko percentage?And Foreman fought the better opponents..Come on use your brain.You could either say Foreman was more skilled so he landed better punches than Liston or you can say he was alot harder puncher.You can't have it both ways.
Either way i already told you to read that book about Ali and read what he said.Liston is a overrated joke.Even a guy like Tyson would eat his ass up.

Verstyle
04-05-2006, 09:36 PM
Actually Ali claimed that Liston hit harder than Foreman before he fought him in 74. That's the only time I know of where Ali compared their punching power for the media.


but u said BEFORE he fought him so how would ali know how hard george hit if he hasnt been hit yet :confused:

Da Iceman
04-05-2006, 09:38 PM
Lol right ******s read the life and time of Ali.He said Foreman was the hardest puncher,Frazier was the toughest and Liston was the scariest..I am not talking about some bull**** Ali said before he fought Foreman to psyke himself out.
And Liston was more skilled?Ha give me a ****ing break.Again Ali said Foreman was the one of the quickest guys he ever faced foot speed wise.Who did Liston beat in his career that compared to Frazier,Norton,Lyle,Moorer,Briggs or even a guy like Peralta who Foreman beat 2 times?Not to mention the other really good fighers like Holyfield and Morrison who Foreman fought when he was in his 40's.
Liston has faster hands than who?Don't tell me you are one of these dick sucking ******s who worship men you never met huh?Liston had the worse hand speed of any heavyweight champion besides that joke Marciano.The only way somebody as unskilled and cowarldy as Liston would beat Foreman would be if he could bring a gun into the ring.
I know alot of you people parents probably snorted alot of coke in the 70's so it only amuses me when you try to talk about something you have no clue of.
And its nice that you like Ali butterfly but Ali was knocked down by 180 pound fighters with one punch and you know why?Because the man has a glass chin.Foreman could box if he wanted today. And your boy Ali was getting beat by the likes of Leon Spinks when he was 35 or so.But you do have a point about Marciano.The little white racist kids in here will never admit the man was a joke.In their eyes a weak slow unskilled 180 pound fighter like Marciano would knock out somebody like Tua with one punch even though Tua never been down to bigger more powerful men.But you still are a complete moron kid.
Read "The Life and Times of Ali" or whatever the book is called.And then get back with me.Ali would know more about who hits harder than you a guy who never fought Foreman,Frazier,Norton blah blah blah.Ali did and he also said Foreman had him out on his feet at least 5 times during their fight from glancing blows.He also stated that Foreman was so strong that he could barely box him and that is why he held on so much trying to tire him.Frazier knocked Ali down so that must me he punched harder.Norton beat Ali 3 times and kept him running and holding like a ***** which ment Norton must punched harder.Shavers hurt Ali big time so he must punched harder than Liston.Lyle knocked down Foreman somebody with a granite chin and the best person Liston knocked down was Patterson a guy with a glass chin and he outweighed about 30 plus pounds so logic would mean Lyle punched harder.
How else can i explain how Liston was overrated....Here retard how about this.You say Liston hits harder and was more skilled which is a load of horse **** then why does Foreman have a better winning percentage and a higher ko percentage?And Foreman fought the better opponents..Come on use your brain.You could either say Foreman was more skilled so he landed better punches than Liston or you can say he was alot harder puncher.You can't have it both ways.
Either way i already told you to read that book about Ali and read what he said.Liston is a overrated joke.Even a guy like Tyson would eat his ass up.
see thats why nobody likes you and your forever getting banned.

Kid Achilles
04-05-2006, 09:44 PM
You are an idiot and a joke and I look forward to your next banning.

Ali having a glass chin? Ali had an awesome chin, one of the best chins of any heavyweight champion. A chin that stood up to Foreman, Liston, Shavers, Quarry, Lyle three fights with Frazier, Mac Foster, and many other big punchers. If Ali had a glass chin, than Foreman's must have been made of dried rat **** dust because Lyle's punches had twice the effect on Foreman that they had on Ali.

Man I cannot fathom how stupid you are. Saying Ali had a glass chin MAY BE THE DUMBEST THING I HAVE EVER HEARD IN TWO YEARS OF BEING A MEMBER AT THIS FORUM; DO YOU REALIZE HOW DUMB THAT IS? NO YOU PROBABLY DON'T BECAUSE YOU'RE A MORON.

Dempsey 1919
04-06-2006, 12:06 AM
Lol right ******s read the life and time of Ali.He said Foreman was the hardest puncher,Frazier was the toughest and Liston was the scariest..I am not talking about some bull**** Ali said before he fought Foreman to psyke himself out.
And Liston was more skilled?Ha give me a ****ing break.Again Ali said Foreman was the one of the quickest guys he ever faced foot speed wise.Who did Liston beat in his career that compared to Frazier,Norton,Lyle,Moorer,Briggs or even a guy like Peralta who Foreman beat 2 times?Not to mention the other really good fighers like Holyfield and Morrison who Foreman fought when he was in his 40's.
Liston has faster hands than who?Don't tell me you are one of these dick sucking ******s who worship men you never met huh?Liston had the worse hand speed of any heavyweight champion besides that joke Marciano.The only way somebody as unskilled and cowarldy as Liston would beat Foreman would be if he could bring a gun into the ring.
I know alot of you people parents probably snorted alot of coke in the 70's so it only amuses me when you try to talk about something you have no clue of.
And its nice that you like Ali butterfly but Ali was knocked down by 180 pound fighters with one punch and you know why?Because the man has a glass chin.Foreman could box if he wanted today. And your boy Ali was getting beat by the likes of Leon Spinks when he was 35 or so.But you do have a point about Marciano.The little white racist kids in here will never admit the man was a joke.In their eyes a weak slow unskilled 180 pound fighter like Marciano would knock out somebody like Tua with one punch even though Tua never been down to bigger more powerful men.But you still are a complete moron kid.
Read "The Life and Times of Ali" or whatever the book is called.And then get back with me.Ali would know more about who hits harder than you a guy who never fought Foreman,Frazier,Norton blah blah blah.Ali did and he also said Foreman had him out on his feet at least 5 times during their fight from glancing blows.He also stated that Foreman was so strong that he could barely box him and that is why he held on so much trying to tire him.Frazier knocked Ali down so that must me he punched harder.Norton beat Ali 3 times and kept him running and holding like a ***** which ment Norton must punched harder.Shavers hurt Ali big time so he must punched harder than Liston.Lyle knocked down Foreman somebody with a granite chin and the best person Liston knocked down was Patterson a guy with a glass chin and he outweighed about 30 plus pounds so logic would mean Lyle punched harder.
How else can i explain how Liston was overrated....Here retard how about this.You say Liston hits harder and was more skilled which is a load of horse **** then why does Foreman have a better winning percentage and a higher ko percentage?And Foreman fought the better opponents..Come on use your brain.You could either say Foreman was more skilled so he landed better punches than Liston or you can say he was alot harder puncher.You can't have it both ways.
Either way i already told you to read that book about Ali and read what he said.Liston is a overrated joke.Even a guy like Tyson would eat his ass up.

liston's handspeed was better than foreman, fool. watch both of them fight in their prime. and i never said liston hits harder than foreman. i just said that he had faster hands and is more skilled, which he is. prime liston wouldn't lose to a 32yr. old ali like prime foreman did. ali wouldn't be able to rope-a-dope liston cause liston wasn't that stupid. foreman may have been faster on his feet than liston, but liston is more skilled and was more fundamentally sound. liston couldn't hit ali is why he couldn't floor him. but liston did manage to hurt clay a few times with one or two punches, so you are wrong, norton, frazier, and norton do not punch harder than liston. patterson is an underrated hw and is better than peralta, moorer, briggs, lyle, and even IMO norton. i mean just because liston's best win was patterson doesn't mean that he couldn't have beaten better people. i mean with marciano you can say that he struggled with charles, walcott, etc, so rocky couldn't have beaten better people, but liston steamrolled over patterson, so someone like frazier or norton still wouldn't be to good for liston to beat. it's not gonna be as easy as patterson, but he could still do it.

i think your problem is your love for george foreman. it's obvious you resent ali for crushing a prime foreman, so stop being blinded by hate.

Kid Achilles
04-06-2006, 12:09 AM
Also although the Patterson win is his most famous, completely destroying a prime Cleveland Williams, Nino Valdez, and Zora Folley have to count for something. These were all very very good contenders.

SuzieQ49
04-06-2006, 12:12 AM
nino valdes was practically shot when liston beat him. the win doesnt count for much at all, valdes wasnt even top 10 ranked anymore and had recentley lost to 2 journeyman. thats all valdes had left was his punching power.

Kid Achilles
04-06-2006, 12:22 AM
Thanks for the correction, I was not aware of that. Cleve was definitely in his prime though, a physical marvel and great power puncher (though pretty damn wide with his shots at times) and Liston just demolished the guy after taking some of his best punches- twice.

I think Liston really had a chin on him and heart as well. His courage is given a blark mark because of the Ali fights but when his mind was on boxing he was a brave guy. Braver than Tyson IMO.

SuzieQ49
04-06-2006, 12:49 AM
yes machen, folley, williams were all in there primes when they fought liston.


valdes was still a dangerous puncher, but he was 35 nearly shot as his recent preformances showed. his reflexes and everything were gone, and he retired after 1 more fight after liston. valdes was not top 10 when liston beat him.

valdes best years were 1952-55

Brassangel
04-06-2006, 01:50 AM
It's also difficult to call the people he faced "bums" considering the fact that they were likely overshadowed by the likes of Patterson, Johansson, Folley, Williams, Ali, etc. Just because he destroyed the no-names doesn't mean they were actually no-names.

Dempsey 1919
04-06-2006, 01:59 AM
It's also difficult to call the people he faced "bums" considering the fact that they were likely overshadowed by the likes of Patterson, Johansson, Folley, Williams, Ali, etc. Just because he destroyed the no-names doesn't mean they were actually no-names.

welcome back brassangel. where you been? :)

Heckler
04-06-2006, 07:29 AM
as in? please inform me what he did more then tyson :rolleyes:

Who the **** did Tyson fight? Michael spinks? and? he was a light heavyweight. Does Ali get credit for beating bob foster with ease who was just as good a LHW as Spinks? He fought an over the hill Holmes. Did he ever beat someone in their PRIME that was as good as Floyd patterson? twice? NO.

Yaman
04-06-2006, 08:55 AM
Who the **** did Tyson fight? Michael spinks? and? he was a light heavyweight. Does Ali get credit for beating bob foster with ease who was just as good a LHW as Spinks? He fought an over the hill Holmes. Did he ever beat someone in their PRIME that was as good as Floyd patterson? twice? NO.

Overall he fought much much better than Sonny mob Liston. Liston just fought 1 greatd fighter in his life and that was it. SPinks proved he could fight as a heavyweight. He was surtainly bigger than Patterson :rolleyes: Don't be an idiot about weights. Its not about weights.

Verstyle
04-06-2006, 11:45 AM
Who the **** did Tyson fight? Michael spinks? and? he was a light heavyweight. Does Ali get credit for beating bob foster with ease who was just as good a LHW as Spinks? He fought an over the hill Holmes. Did he ever beat someone in their PRIME that was as good as Floyd patterson? twice? NO.


soooooooooo u tell me that since spinks didnt go up in weight A LONG TIME before he fought tyson(heavyweight). to be precise in ****in 85'!!!!!!!! when tyson first came on the scene and 3 years before they fought. u will still consider him a light heavyweight?? get the **** outta here with that long time excuse. tyson weighed 218 and spinks weighed 212 sounds like spinks was a heavyweight to me :rolleyes: and i guess gerry cooney and larry holmes must really suck to be beatin by a "light heavyweight". and who did he fight? i guess tyrell bigg the gold medal winner and still undefeated. and although it wasnt prime i guess donovan ruddock 1&2 one of the hardest hitters in the division sucked also that fighter was a no body huh :rolleyes: and i dont care what u say after holmes lose to tyson he still fought good competetion so he wasnt that over the hill. tony tucker was undefeated and the ibf champ by beating buster douglas guess he sucked also. and ive seen pinklon thomas in some greatest hitters list also so obviously his jab and other hits were something.if u cant analyze tyson opponents dont even bother. ;)

Dempsey 1919
04-06-2006, 01:37 PM
soooooooooo u tell me that since spinks didnt go up in weight A LONG TIME before he fought tyson(heavyweight). to be precise in ****in 85'!!!!!!!! when tyson first came on the scene and 3 years before they fought. u will still consider him a light heavyweight?? get the **** outta here with that long time excuse. tyson weighed 218 and spinks weighed 212 sounds like spinks was a heavyweight to me :rolleyes: and i guess gerry cooney and larry holmes must really suck to be beatin by a "light heavyweight". and who did he fight? i guess tyrell bigg the gold medal winner and still undefeated. and although it wasnt prime i guess donovan ruddock 1&2 one of the hardest hitters in the division sucked also that fighter was a no body huh :rolleyes: and i dont care what u say after holmes lose to tyson he still fought good competetion so he wasnt that over the hill. tony tucker was undefeated and the ibf champ by beating buster douglas guess he sucked also. and ive seen pinklon thomas in some greatest hitters list also so obviously his jab and other hits were something.if u cant analyze tyson opponents dont even bother. ;)

liston beat people like patterson, cleveland williams, zora folley, and eddie machen. all of these are top 40 hw's of all time. patterson is better than anybody tyson beat. williams is a terrific puncher, IMO a top 25 of greatest punchers of all-time. machen was a very good boxer with great skills, and folley was a tricky counterpuncher that would give hw's today problems. if you can't say that liston beat good competition, then you just must have something against him

SuzieQ49
04-06-2006, 01:49 PM
folley is no top 40 heavy of all time

Dempsey 1919
04-06-2006, 01:50 PM
folley is no top 40 heavy of all time

he beat machen, so machen is not top 40 either.

Brassangel
04-06-2006, 04:10 PM
When it comes down to it, they both faced good competition. Mike Tyson probably faced more quality opponents, but Sonny Liston faced two legends who were in their prime, (Patterson & Ali, of course). Since he split with them 2-2, and Tyson's depth of quality opponents probably stretches farther than Liston's, I'd say it's about even. Sonny was, believe it or not, more psychologically stable. Even against someone like Floyd Patterson, who Tyson would have been heavily favored over, he could have found some way to screw it up.

I'd like to watch Liston vs. Tyson, by the way. I had this discussion many times before I left; it would be dangerous, messy, angry, and bloody beautiful.

SuzieQ49
04-06-2006, 07:26 PM
he beat machen, so machen is not top 40 either.


thats not the way it works



-buster douglas is no top 40 heavyweight, but he beat mike tyson so mike tyson is no top 40 heavyweight either

Dempsey 1919
04-06-2006, 07:32 PM
thats not the way it works



-buster douglas is no top 40 heavyweight, but he beat mike tyson so mike tyson is no top 40 heavyweight either

that wasn't tyson at his best, though.

SuzieQ49
04-07-2006, 01:01 AM
ur missing the point. zora folley was not as good as eddie machen and cleveland williams . folley had a glass jaw and was knocked out 4 times in his prime by journeyman/or in doug jones case a light hitter

Brassangel
04-07-2006, 01:10 AM
*sigh*

Ugh...while we all know Tyson drank, partied, and forgot about a thing called sleep before his fight with Douglas; and James was certainly not a top 40 all-time heavyweight, he was a top 40 heavyweight on that night.

Regardless of how much Tyson blew it after he switched teams, don't take anything away from Buster Douglas on that night in Tokyo. Mike Tyson was a phenomenon, and one of the most amazing and skilled athletes to have graced the sport; even with everything he had going against him that night. It would have taken a man with remarkable focus, endurance, and training to pull off the biggest upset in history, at the only time he would have been given such a grand opportunity. I would have taken James "Buster" Douglas against most top 40 fighters on January 10, 1991. The thing to ponder was how good he could have been had he continually maintained that focus. I guess we will never know.

Even so, on the original topic, Liston was a great fighter. He didn't have an amazing title reign like Ali or Louis or Holmes, but in head-to-head match ups, it would be hard to select any fighter over him. On the other side of the plate, however, head-to-head should only account for about 25%-35% of a fighter's rankings in terms of greatness.

I would rank Liston in the top 6 all-time. Go over to the March Madness thread I made and see; he got a "2" seat.