View Full Version : George Foreman vs. Lennox Lewis


Brassangel
02-02-2006, 10:18 AM
Two huge men. Lennox is clearly larger than Big George, with more boxing skills, but Foreman has a bigger punch and intimidation. Who wins in this clash of the titans?

Yaman
02-02-2006, 10:21 AM
Foreman only needs ONE punch to end the fight against glass Lewis. I doubt Lewis would be able to do what Ali did and win.

Southpaw Stinger
02-02-2006, 10:23 AM
Foreman by early KO. Lewis always had a suspect chin so it would just take one big punch from George and it would be lights out Lewis!

Oasis_Lad
02-02-2006, 10:25 AM
this is a complete no brainer foreman kos lennox in 1 lennox in my opinion can't hurt foreman where as we know lennox had one of the worst chins for a heavyweight id bet my house on foreman beating lennox within 2 rounds

Yaman
02-02-2006, 10:29 AM
Also, Lewis easily gets intimidated by power punches. I wonder how he would feel against the hardest hitting heavyweight ever.

Southpaw Stinger
02-02-2006, 10:35 AM
Also, Lewis easily gets intimidated by power punches. I wonder how he would feel against the hardest hitting heavyweight ever.

Exactly. He would probrably be ill before the fight or if he goes ahead with it, he would blame it on the temperature or somthing **** like that!

RAESAAD
02-02-2006, 10:38 AM
It could be a good fight and maybe not no matter if it was good or not I think Big george would end up stopping him. :)

angelo_dundee
02-02-2006, 11:04 AM
Lummox gets KO'd. Destroyed.

oldgringo
02-02-2006, 01:04 PM
Foreman KOs Lewis in the 3rd or 4th. Lenny was good but he couldn't stand up to Foreman.

Dempsey 1919
02-02-2006, 02:07 PM
lennox wouldn't get out of the third round with foreman, if he makes it that far. none of lewis' punches would hurt george. george wins an easy early ko.

Southpaw Stinger
02-02-2006, 02:09 PM
Someone actually voted for Lewis!

Yaman
02-02-2006, 02:13 PM
Ahh never mind lol, as long as its 99% to brother George ;)

Boxclever
02-02-2006, 03:08 PM
I Liked lewis but don't see him beating Foreman on any night :boxing:

Brassangel
02-03-2006, 10:16 AM
My pick was for Foreman; I guess I was hoping that someone would try to give it to Lewis and make a stink about it. Oh well.

If Lewis was indeed intimidated by power, despite being a powerful guy himself, do you think he would have lost to a younger Mike Tyson?

Southpaw Stinger
02-03-2006, 11:00 AM
I think a younger Tyson would beat Lewis by a KO. But thats just my oppinon.

Yaman
02-03-2006, 11:48 AM
Its a fact brother :cool:

angelo_dundee
02-03-2006, 12:42 PM
Young Mikey would blast LL the f*** out within 3, probably 1.

El Guapo
02-03-2006, 04:14 PM
its clear lewis dint have the skills of ali, but lewis was a real boxing k.o machine, he cut vitali k real good and had two of the worlds greatest come backs in my opinion, lewis would be the under dog, but theres always that vital factor of the TKO cut which could turn a fight around in seconds.if this bout were to happen lewis would know he had to not piss around like with rahman and mc'call

supaduck
02-03-2006, 04:16 PM
Ok.. But Foreman KO Lewis in round 5.

Dempsey 1919
02-03-2006, 04:17 PM
its clear lewis dint have the skills of ali, but lewis was a real boxing k.o machine, he cut vitali k real good and had two of the worlds greatest come backs in my opinion, lewis would be the under dog, but theres always that vital factor of the TKO cut which could turn a fight around in seconds.if this bout were to happen lewis would know he had to not piss around like with rahman and mc'call

lewis' glass chin would allow him to get out of the second round with foreman.

M26
02-04-2006, 08:33 AM
Lennox Lewis was huge and skillfull, but against the animal that was prime George Foreman, he would be destroyed. His less than stellar chin would be his early downfall. Foreman connects, and Lewis goes down for keeps.

George Foreman by ko2.

tjmoney
03-08-2006, 02:41 PM
Theres a couple of things i just dont understand here, First the whole glass jaw theory. OK Lennox has been knocked out, but it was in 2 fights where he came in completely out of shape, especially the Rahman fight. But lets not forget that Foreman has also been KO'd, and that was when he was in peak physical condition. Foreman was also knocked down by Jimmy Young. So if we're being completely unbiased here wouldnt that mean the Big George also has a glass chin?

tjmoney
03-08-2006, 02:56 PM
Which brings me to my next question, Ive heard a few people say that Lennox Lewis didnt have the power to hurt Big George, this would imply that Lennox didnt have the power of Ali or Jimmy Young, when you look at it like that does that statement really make any sense? Ill answer that for you, no it doesnt, none whatsoever. So if we level out the playing field and not use biased judgement, going by the comments that everyone has made we have a matchup between two glass jawed heavyweights with tons of power which would imply that the first person to be hit clean would be knocked out. But since Lewis is the taller, quicker fighter whose punches are more straight foreward as opposed to foremans wide swinging clubbing shots, odds are it would be foreman getting caught early and put to sleep. Now im not saying that i would necessarily pick lennox to win the fight, Im merely making the point that when it comes to George Foreman it appears that a double standard is always used where foremans weakness are overlooked, sometimes blatantly swept under the rug. All I ask is that you use the same standards for him as you would everyone else, I mean he was a great fighter but God he was not.

RockyMarcianofan00
03-08-2006, 04:16 PM
Foreman by KO3

Lennox has weight size reach but Foreman would just pummel lennox until there was nothing left
he really only needs 2 maybe three clean shots on lennox's chin but i'll give Lennox the B.O.D. and say his reach keeps foreman away and his defense keeps his chin relatively defended, but no way he can stand up to Foreman

:boxing:

Stiv Rex
03-09-2006, 09:51 PM
i pick lewis, assuming prime vs. prime.
prime foreman from the 70's didnt have the defense to handle lewis's boxing skills. foreman gets the nod for 1 punch power, but lewis could end the fight with a good one at any time also.
70's foreman wouldnt know how to handle someone bigger and possibly stronger than him.
see, its difficult, because 70's foreman was obviously much better physically, and 80's & 90's foreman was a better (a little) boxer who still had to rely on his punch to win.
so take old foremans savvy and young foremans body and i still think lewis wins.

Stiv Rex
03-09-2006, 09:53 PM
by the way, thats a good question for the historians in here. did foreman ever fight a guy who had him on height, weight and reach? how did he do?

and lewis didnt have a glass chin, remember he took a couple of BOOMING shots from tyson, if they didnt put him down then it wasnt his chin that was the problem. those losses were because of lack of conditioning and focus. he came back and took the same frigging shots from both mccall and rahman and look what happened so how does he have a glass chin??

Dempsey 1919
03-10-2006, 12:03 AM
by the way, thats a good question for the historians in here. did foreman ever fight a guy who had him on height, weight and reach? how did he do?

and lewis didnt have a glass chin, remember he took a couple of BOOMING shots from tyson, if they didnt put him down then it wasnt his chin that was the problem. those losses were because of lack of conditioning and focus. he came back and took the same frigging shots from both mccall and rahman and look what happened so how does he have a glass chin??

lewis couldn't handle foreman's power if he couldn't handle rahman's.

smasher
03-10-2006, 03:22 AM
lewis couldn't handle foreman's power if he couldn't handle rahman's.
Evander Holyfield who fought both men stated that Foreman was the strongest man he ever faced as well as the hardest puncher.

Holyfield's strength which we saw manhandle Tyson and move Lewis back didn't even try to outmuscle Foreman instead fighting on the balls of his feet and moving in and out.

Yes Lennox has the power to hurt Foreman.

No he wouldn't beat him.

George by 5th round KO.



http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f297/nofx-moonstomp-/conky.jpg (http://photobucket.com/)

MickyHatton
03-10-2006, 04:12 AM
Which brings me to my next question, Ive heard a few people say that Lennox Lewis didnt have the power to hurt Big George, this would imply that Lennox didnt have the power of Ali or Jimmy Young, when you look at it like that does that statement really make any sense? Ill answer that for you, no it doesnt, none whatsoever. So if we level out the playing field and not use biased judgement, going by the comments that everyone has made we have a matchup between two glass jawed heavyweights with tons of power which would imply that the first person to be hit clean would be knocked out. But since Lewis is the taller, quicker fighter whose punches are more straight foreward as opposed to foremans wide swinging clubbing shots, odds are it would be foreman getting caught early and put to sleep. Now im not saying that i would necessarily pick lennox to win the fight, Im merely making the point that when it comes to George Foreman it appears that a double standard is always used where foremans weakness are overlooked, sometimes blatantly swept under the rug. All I ask is that you use the same standards for him as you would everyone else, I mean he was a great fighter but God he was not.

You make some valid points here, if Foreman was so unbeatable why did he retire(first time) without regaining the title?
He retired in 77 after losing to Jimmy Young then came back 10 years later!
Lots on here dimiss Lewis as if he was a poor Champion, they talk about his losses to McCall and Rahman as if they actually proved anything significant, all it proved boxing wise was that any Heavyweight is always one punch away from defeat, Lewis by his own admission admitted he took both fighters way to lightly, thats his problem and he has to live with it after all if he had 'done the right thing' he would have had a flawless record.
But he came back and avenged those defeats.
He was a great fighter, he could box, had good handspeed and skills and could punch, on top of that he had the physique of a real heavyweight.
Some say he had a glass jaw, how? Look at his record, he fought puncher after puncher, like I said his only two losses came from his lack of motivation.
George Foreman was a great fighter but for some reason many view him through rose tinked glasses and rush out to by endorsed products believing he was this unbeatable machine, well he wasn't, check his record. look at the Foreman - Ali fight, great drama no arguments but where was the class and technical proof that Foreman was not one dimentional? After all his 'smash them to bits' theory didn't work what did he do? He carried on, and punched himself out, thus letting an underdog in Ali easily outsmart him!
I'm not saying Foreman couldn't have beaten Lewis, all I'm saying is that lets be realistic and not let the passage of time and the fluffing of the facts dictate an honest assessment!
This fight would IMO have been far closer than many on here would like to suggest!

Heckler
03-12-2006, 05:11 PM
i pick lewis, assuming prime vs. prime.
prime foreman from the 70's didnt have the defense to handle lewis's boxing skills. foreman gets the nod for 1 punch power, but lewis could end the fight with a good one at any time also.
70's foreman wouldnt know how to handle someone bigger and possibly stronger than him.
see, its difficult, because 70's foreman was obviously much better physically, and 80's & 90's foreman was a better (a little) boxer who still had to rely on his punch to win.
so take old foremans savvy and young foremans body and i still think lewis wins.

Then your completely delusional. Lewis's boxing skills? Skills alone aren't going to neutralise Foreman, Ali picked Foreman apart all night and he kept coming. The 73-74, agressive, killer-instinct Foreman is the BEST version of foreman and this is noted by historians, his controlled style was less effective. Foreman would know how to handle a bigger man, he would pummel the living **** out of him. Dont think that young Foreman was inferior because Ali rope a doped him, he is the only fighter capable of doing that against Foreman. Foreman would absorb whatever Lennox threw at him, get him on the ropes and KTFO lennox. 74 Foreman was a SLUGGING MACHINE, skills alone aren't enough to neutralise big George, you need the ability to absorb massive punishment.

Heckler
03-12-2006, 05:13 PM
Remember, do not bring foreman post 74 into this, he was a completely different fighter. He was better in his comeback then he was in the late seventies and i think he would of knocked out lennox then.

leff
03-12-2006, 05:31 PM
big george in 3.

foreman takes ll on chin,power and strength.

Stiv Rex
03-12-2006, 06:33 PM
lewis couldn't handle foreman's power if he couldn't handle rahman's.

you didnt really address the point i brought up. you seriously believe that hasim rahman and oliver mccall punch harder than tyson?
did you ever actually box before? conditioning affects the chin way more than people usually acknowledge. lewis's problem his whole career was lack of drive or focus. his two losses were because of that, not a supposed "glass jaw." bull****.
the most common criticism was that he was too nice. when he tried to talk tough he sounded like a b-actor reading lines. he just didnt have a fighters mentality.

Stiv Rex
03-12-2006, 06:54 PM
Then your completely delusional. Lewis's boxing skills? Skills alone aren't going to neutralise Foreman, Ali picked Foreman apart all night and he kept coming. The 73-74, agressive, killer-instinct Foreman is the BEST version of foreman and this is noted by historians, his controlled style was less effective. Foreman would know how to handle a bigger man, he would pummel the living **** out of him. Dont think that young Foreman was inferior because Ali rope a doped him, he is the only fighter capable of doing that against Foreman. Foreman would absorb whatever Lennox threw at him, get him on the ropes and KTFO lennox. 74 Foreman was a SLUGGING MACHINE, skills alone aren't enough to neutralise big George, you need the ability to absorb massive punishment.

yes, you are correct, young foreman was a punching machine. he was most effective against guys who stood still and tried to trade with him. however, lennox did too. look what he did to tyson, grant, golota; rahman in the rematch.
heres another point you guys should consider. prime, 70's foreman, who was so "physically imposing," carried a fighting weight in the low teens to twenties. a trim lennox lewis was in the 240's, he never fought at a lower weight than 224. he had almost 3 inches on foreman. foreman NEVER fought a guy as big as lennox in his first career.
how would foreman fight lennox, go to the body? bull****. he was a plodding head hunter, slow as molasses with an amazing punch and one way of fighting, straight ahead. counterpunch? bull****. if his jab wasnt pushing the guy back or setting them up for rips and right hands then he was ineffective. he ended up counting on his punch to get it done.

Heckler
03-12-2006, 08:45 PM
How would Foreman fight Lennox? It doesn't matter if George takes 3 of lewis's punches to unload one of his, George did have a good chin, and Lennox did not. Lennox had a glass chin and one Foreman haymakers would have him counting his teeth. The size of Lennox Lewis means nothing, Lewis maybe bigger then Foreman but Foreman has the greatest functional strength of any boxer in history and would MAN-HANDLE Lewis with ease. Foreman had no technique whatosever, he arm punched, yet was one of the if not the most powerful hitters in boxing history. It was because he was gifed with a freakish level of natural strength. Foreman would get Lennox on the ropes and unload bombs, Lennox couldn't keep the fight at center-ring, Ali couldn't let alone Lewis... Lewis was bullied around the ring by HOLYFIELD. Once on the ropes, its over. Shannon Briggs was bigger the Foreman and couldn't stop the man nor control center-ring, Foreman was robbed in that fight. Lewis doesn't stand a chance against a 74 Foreman.

RockyMarcianofan00
03-13-2006, 12:31 AM
Foreman Early

size and wieght it doesn't matter Foreman would destroy him

probably in less then 4 cause it woundn't take foreman long to land enough punches to have Lewis on the canvas, and only a few more after that to ko him

The Noose
03-13-2006, 01:53 AM
I take Lewis.
For some reason i see Foremans wild swings and poor defence made for Lewis.

Lewis's punches were technically much better than Georges and if he avoids getting caught with a big shot, i think hed manage to out box Foreman, and KO him in the late rounds.

Im no Lewis fan, but before McCall KO'd him, he was much more aggresive, and faster. I think he could snap back Foremans head with his jab, and land enough long rights to hurt him.

Wasnt Lewis bigger than Foreman? If anyone will be intimidated, it would be Foreman.

Just my opinion.

The Noose
03-13-2006, 02:01 AM
Actually, just looking at Foremans record up till Ali, alot of those fighters he KO'd were crap!

Look at their records. Most of them had more loses then wins when they fought Foreman.

I know you cant argue with wat he did to Frazier and Norton, but it sure looks like his record is padded as hell.

Id say Lewis has the better record.

Heckler
03-13-2006, 02:34 AM
Lewis has a better record, then again, Lewis didn't go nuts and throw away what could of been the best years of his career.

Heckler
03-13-2006, 02:36 AM
Your nuts if you think Foreman would be scared of Lewis, Lewis isn't intimidating nor a devestating slugger. Foreman is the stronger of the two and would know it. Lennox is a student of the sport and would **** his pants at the thought of fighting a prime george. Foreman had a SOLID jaw, and would definately have Lewis on the canvas before he was able to inflict enough damage to hurt big george. If ali couldn't keep the fight at center-ring, even after stinging george with multiple quick 1-2 combos and right hand leads, Lewis does not stand a chance... once its on the ropes its over.

The Noose
03-13-2006, 03:11 AM
Lewis has a better record, then again, Lewis didn't go nuts and throw away what could of been the best years of his career.

Very true.

But Ali's one twos dont compare to Lewis's.

Foreman did have a good chin. And he could KO Lewis at any point during the fight.
But the shots that KO'd Golota and Ruddock were quality power punches. And i believe could also of knocked Foreman out.

Heckler
03-13-2006, 04:13 AM
First, ruddock, golota and a washed up Tyson dont begin to compare a prime Tyson. Lewis wouldn't have time to get into a Rhythm, start wearing Foreman down and then drop him with powershots. And the 1-2's ali threw, and SAT ON, very quickly, straight down the pipe do compare to those of Lewis and he landed them more often then lewis would ever. I know Lewis is more powerful, but Ali through some very hard punches that night. Foreman has a good Chin and brilliant recovery, but the fact of the matter is he wouldn't need it. If Lennox chose to stay center-ring and try slug it out with Foreman, he would essentially be comitting suicide. He doesn't have the ability to stick and laterally move, Foreman isn't Tua and he would cut the ring off. Once Foreman bustles Lennox up against the ropes its over.

Parody
03-13-2006, 07:03 AM
Prime Foreman was just a hard hitter and did'nt have better skills than Lewis, His defense was'nt good either he would get hit flush many times, but he also had the ability to take a punch, he used to take punches and land some, exchange shots and win by KO, People fail to realise that Lennox is probably the smartest heavyweight out there, hes damn clever, in every fight he uses his brains and his fists, Lennox had decent boxing skills and could block the big punches Foreman throws and counter punch Foreman, If there is a focused Lewis then Lennox Lewis by UD

Dempsey 1919
03-13-2006, 10:42 AM
Prime Foreman was just a hard hitter and did'nt have better skills than Lewis, His defense was'nt good either he would get hit flush many times, but he also had the ability to take a punch, he used to take punches and land some, exchange shots and win by KO, People fail to realise that Lennox is probably the smartest heavyweight out there, hes damn clever, in every fight he uses his brains and his fists, Lennox had decent boxing skills and could block the big punches Foreman throws and counter punch Foreman, If there is a focused Lewis then Lennox Lewis by UD

focused or not lewis gets ktfo!

Southpaw Stinger
03-13-2006, 11:03 AM
focused or not lewis gets ktfo!

Damn right!

GunStar
03-13-2006, 11:28 AM
Big George knock Lewis out within 2 rounds.

Frazier's 15th round
03-13-2006, 11:30 AM
Even slow Foreman would KO this sissy Lennox Lewis easily.

Heckler
03-13-2006, 02:23 PM
Prime Foreman was just a hard hitter and did'nt have better skills than Lewis, His defense was'nt good either he would get hit flush many times, but he also had the ability to take a punch, he used to take punches and land some, exchange shots and win by KO, People fail to realise that Lennox is probably the smartest heavyweight out there, hes damn clever, in every fight he uses his brains and his fists, Lennox had decent boxing skills and could block the big punches Foreman throws and counter punch Foreman, If there is a focused Lewis then Lennox Lewis by UD

He was a hard hitter and a master at cutting off the ring. Whats Lennox going to do when hes on these ropes? hes going to get carried off on a stretcher thats what hes going to do.

You must realise, the timeframe in which Lennox could wear down Foreman with the accumlative effect of his punches WONT EXIST. The fight will be a 3 rounder at most.

The Noose
03-14-2006, 02:52 AM
Ok, i just watched Lewis versus Bruno. And i retract my earlier statements! lol

Foreman KOs Lewis in 3.

Stiv Rex
03-15-2006, 08:51 PM
Actually, just looking at Foremans record up till Ali, alot of those fighters he KO'd were crap!

Look at their records. Most of them had more loses then wins when they fought Foreman.

I know you cant argue with wat he did to Frazier and Norton, but it sure looks like his record is padded as hell.

Id say Lewis has the better record.

yes, foreman did what until he be frazier? nothing, beat up a bunch of stiffs. frazier was CUSTOM FRICKING MADE for foreman to beat. and this is right after frazier beat ali, so now everyone thinks foreman is god. then ali shows that foreman is nearly a friggin amateur boxer with a hell of a punch who cant pace himself.
foreman wouldnt beat a good boxer as big or bigger than him, especially one with a good jab to neutralize his wildness.
STYLES MAKE FIGHTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

no way foreman would beat lewis, except for the lucky shot

Stiv Rex
03-15-2006, 09:02 PM
He was a hard hitter and a master at cutting off the ring. Whats Lennox going to do when hes on these ropes? hes going to get carried off on a stretcher thats what hes going to do.


if he was a master why was frazier able to cut off the ring (a little) against ali in their first fight but foreman wasnt? joe frazier was smaller and about the same foot speed but he could cut off ali and gigantic "master" foreman couldnt? he couldnt cut off the ring against jimmy young either.

lewis got pushed around by holyfield because that was holyfields style in that fight, plus he was wary of the worlds best headbutter, so he gave steps to make the space he needed for his right, and look at the result, too. if it werent for eugenia williams smoking crack before the fight and larry o'conell taking $$ for a draw then he would have won an easy decision. it was pretty obvious in the rematch.
lewis could handle foremans sloppy flailing, and he was no wimp anyway. you talk about foreman like he was a clydesdale. lennox was plenty strong enough to push right back.

Heckler
03-15-2006, 09:09 PM
lol you guys buy into the 'any skilled boxer can beat Foreman' theory, which was developed after Ali beat him. Ali is unique, you must realise this. No way, george takes 3 steps to every other fighters 1 - in the words of muhammad ali. The only way to beat Foreman is to laterally move, fluidly and have the ability to tie george up and absorb huge punishment. Sitting on the ropes only works with Ali, without a doubt. Lennox didn't have the footwork nor the functional strength required to keep the fight at center ring, he would be muscled on to the ropes by Foreman and knocked out. He has a glass jaw, thus he doesn't stand a chance. Many think Foreman was nothing but a powerful slugger, and they are right. But the extent of his power, strength, and general brutality in the ring is SO large that it completely offsets his lack of skill and technique. Not only do i think no swarmer could take a 73 Foreman, i dont think any fighter other then Ali and POSSIBLY holmes could take Foreman out during that time.

unstoppable sam
03-15-2006, 11:04 PM
id have to agree with the post that whoever hit first would win.. i think alot of u are under estimating lewis

Heckler
03-15-2006, 11:18 PM
Not underestimating Lewis at all. Lewis is a good fighter. But he doesn't have the ability to absorb punishment that is required to take on Foreman. Many will pick Lennox on the basis that he is a modern fighter and Foreman for the most part was not - a logic that is ridiculous because any boxing enthusiast will know that the present is a slump in boxing.

Yogi
03-15-2006, 11:27 PM
i think alot of u are under estimating lewis

Whether the majority would favour Lewis over Foreman in the future or not, the trend has been to underrate a fighter whose still very fresh in our memory. As an example, in the mid/late 70's the editors of Ring Magazine were asked to complete a compilation of who they thought were the greatest Heavyweights of all-time and this is what they came up with as a final tally;

1. Joe Louis
2. Jack Dempsey
3. James Jeffries
4. Jack Johnson
5. Rocky Marciano
6. Gene Tunney
7. Bob Fitzsimmons
8. James Corbett
9. Muhammad Ali

That poll was taken when the vast majority of Ali's work was behind him, yet he could do no better than 9th that time around. But about ten years later when Ring Magazine again asked their editors to compile their lists...Ali was sitting at the very top of the rankings.

Heckler
03-15-2006, 11:45 PM
if he was a master why was frazier able to cut off the ring (a little) against ali in their first fight but foreman wasnt? joe frazier was smaller and about the same foot speed but he could cut off ali and gigantic "master" foreman couldnt? he couldnt cut off the ring against jimmy young either.

lewis got pushed around by holyfield because that was holyfields style in that fight, plus he was wary of the worlds best headbutter, so he gave steps to make the space he needed for his right, and look at the result, too. if it werent for eugenia williams smoking crack before the fight and larry o'conell taking $$ for a draw then he would have won an easy decision. it was pretty obvious in the rematch.
lewis could handle foremans sloppy flailing, and he was no wimp anyway. you talk about foreman like he was a clydesdale. lennox was plenty strong enough to push right back.


Rofl Lewis does not have much functional strength for his size at all. Its widely known Foreman and Jeffries are the strongest men to step between those ropes. Lennox would get manhandled like a small child. So yeah Foreman was freakishly strong and any sportswriter/historian that witnessed the man will tell you this. Foreman was VERY good at cutting off the ring and he DID cut the ring off against Ali? so wtf are you on about?

Why wasn't he cutting off the ring against Young well? maybe because he was a walking basketcase at the time? Because he didn't want to apply too much pressure, do too much work? Psychologically ****ed from the rumble in the jungle? he wasn't half the fighter after 74.

"Those who believe that any “clever boxer” type could beat George often give the Jimmy Young fight as an example. Foreman showed up for this fight in San Juan the day before the fight and didn’t give himself time to get acclimated to the heat. He paced himself, fighting in his newfound measured style and did not throw a significant punch for the first 5 rounds. This was all wrong for him. The Foreman of Zaire would have tracked down Young, forced him to the ropes, went to the body with power and belted him out inside of a few short rounds. The 1973-74 Foreman, the one who cut the ring and really went after his man was the best Foreman. The George who lost to Young never really went after him. The Foreman who fought at a measured pace just was not the real Foreman." - Monte Cox

You come across as nothing more then an enthusiast of contemporary boxing who has failed to learn enough about the boxers of previous generations. A jab was never able to neutralise Foreman. Ali stuck a number of jabs and right crosses at Foreman whom essentially shook them off and bustled Ali against the ropes.I can guarantee Ali has more functional strength the Lennox ever did being one of the only fighters that was able to move Foreman around the ring to some extent and tie up Sonny Liston. Norton also used the jab to little effect. Holyfield could barely keep grandaddy Foreman off him, although he at one stage hit Foreman with 25 unanswered shots. Ali never beat Foreman with his skill. It was his toughness, tremendous ability to absorb punishment, and will to win.

"Not too many fighters who ever lived, and possibly only Muhammad Ali, could defeat the George Foreman of that fight. Ali could box, move, was fast on his feet, had exceptional head movement and anticipation but George cut the ring on him very well in Zaire. Ali did not outbox Foreman. He outsmarted him yes, but mostly he toughed it out where most heavyweights would have wilted. Few men besides Ali could take the shots that he did. Few who slugged it out with a prime Foreman would have hopes to survive. After losing to Ali, George, who had thought himself unbeatable, began to doubt himself and changed his style." - MONTE COX

I dont think Lennox has the killer instinct to do aswell as Lyle, and that wasn't the best Foreman at all. You are correct in saying he has the smarts, but incorrect in implying that mere smarts and boxing ability will be enough to beat Foreman. One needs to be able to absorb tremendous punishment - Lennox couldn't.

"Lennox Lewis, who was twice knocked out in early rounds by lesser fighters, would fall in two rounds to Big George. Few fighters of history could make the requirement against the most powerful of the big men. George Foreman at his awesome best is the king of the super-heavyweights." - Monte Cox

The Noose
03-16-2006, 01:26 AM
Another thing i noticed about Foreman wen i watched him recently. His punches, although very wild and amaturish at times, he was unorthadox, and his punches were often arm punches. But very powerful.

The shots that knocked out Norton and Frazier were arm swings, but not telegraphed at all.

Lennox would have to catch him with one hell of a shot to keep him off. And i dont think Lewis's defence was great. Did McCall or Rahman really punch that hard?

Yaman
03-16-2006, 07:06 AM
Did McCall or Rahman really punch that hard?

Yes. Rahman's punch was harder. But people seem to forget why Lewis was totally ****ed up by that. He bounced his head on the floor like a football. You can imagine how that would feel.

K-DOGG
03-16-2006, 02:58 PM
Intriguing match up; but I have to go with the cruder fighter, Big George, in this case. Why?

Well, Lewis proved he could be stopped with one punch...McCall and Rahman, which means his chin was average at best.

Foreman, on the other hand, was tagged and dropped by Ron Lyle and got up to continue fighting and eventually stopped his foe. True Ali stopped George in 8 and the feather-fisted Young dropped him in the 12th; but the key to those knock-downs was exhaustion and possible heat stroke in the case of Young. Ali took George's best as Foreman refused to pace himself and eventually ran out of gas, at which point Ali capitalized.

Lewis was just stopped. Now, true, Lewis did slug it out with Mecer and lasted the distance; but I don't think Merciless Ray hit quite as hard as Foreman and I don't think he was as tenacious and intent on destroying his opponenets as a young Formena was....despite his nickname.

:cool:

Dempsey 1919
03-16-2006, 03:00 PM
Intriguing match up; but I have to go with the cruder fighter, Big George, in this case. Why?

Well, Lewis proved he could be stopped with one punch...McCall and Rahman, which means his chin was average at best.

Foreman, on the other hand, was tagged and dropped by Ron Lyle and got up to continue fighting and eventually stopped his foe. True Ali stopped George in 8 and the feather-fisted Young dropped him in the 12th; but the key to those knock-downs was exhaustion and possible heat stroke in the case of Young. Ali took George's best as Foreman refused to pace himself and eventually ran out of gas, at which point Ali capitalized.

Lewis was just stopped. Now, true, Lewis did slug it out with Mecer and lasted the distance; but I don't think Merciless Ray hit quite as hard as Foreman and I don't think he was as tenacious and intent on destroying his opponenets as a young Formena was....despite his nickname.

:cool:

nice post. good karma and 50,000 points for you!

K-DOGG
03-16-2006, 03:09 PM
nice post. good karma and 50,000 points for you!

Props Bro. NICE ALI QUOTE, BTW....that's one of my favorites.
;)

smasher
03-16-2006, 03:41 PM
In a match-up such as this Lennox Lewis would give ground like he did against punchers like David Tua and to an extent Mike Tyson where his approach was to be cautious of his opponent's power. Lewis even gave ground to Ray Mercer who is not close to being in Foreman's stratosphere in terms of strength and punching power.

Lewis knows he has a vulnerable chin and therefore I cannot imagine him coming at Foreman and trading bombs. Lennox would concede that Foreman is the stronger of the two and would attempt to box Foreman as opposed to slug with him like his history against punchers would indicate. This fighting style would nullify Lewis' power somewhat and in essence turn it into a puncher vs boxer scenario.

I have difficulty imagining Foreman losing to Lewis by being outboxed by a big target who was not a particularly quick or evasive one, nor had the greatest chin.

K-DOGG
03-16-2006, 03:57 PM
In a match-up such as this Lennox Lewis would give ground like he did against punchers like David Tua and to an extent Mike Tyson where his approach was to be cautious of his opponent's power. Lewis even gave ground to Ray Mercer who is not close to being in Foreman's stratosphere in terms of strength and punching power.

Lewis knows he has a vulnerable chin and therefore I cannot imagine him coming at Foreman and trading bombs. Lennox would concede that Foreman is the stronger of the two and would attempt to box Foreman as opposed to slug with him like his history against punchers would indicate. This fighting style would nullify Lewis' power somewhat and in essence turn it into a puncher vs boxer scenario.

I have difficulty imagining Foreman losing to Lewis by being outboxed by a big target who was not a particularly quick or evasive one, nor had the greatest chin.

Great synopsis.

El Guapo
03-16-2006, 05:27 PM
In a match-up such as this Lennox Lewis would give ground like he did against punchers like David Tua and to an extent Mike Tyson where his approach was to be cautious of his opponent's power. Lewis even gave ground to Ray Mercer who is not close to being in Foreman's stratosphere in terms of strength and punching power.

Lewis knows he has a vulnerable chin and therefore I cannot imagine him coming at Foreman and trading bombs. Lennox would concede that Foreman is the stronger of the two and would attempt to box Foreman as opposed to slug with him like his history against punchers would indicate. This fighting style would nullify Lewis' power somewhat and in essence turn it into a puncher vs boxer scenario.

I have difficulty imagining Foreman losing to Lewis by being outboxed by a big target who was not a particularly quick or evasive one, nor had the greatest chin.
then again lewis was light handed either!!!
yes he would have to box,
yes he would be the underdog,
but we all seen lacey calzaghe i hope,(meaning calzaghe was suposed to get ko'ed in 5 was it)
close one, id like to say lewis, on paper its foreman!

Stiv Rex
03-16-2006, 07:46 PM
Why wasn't he cutting off the ring against Young well? maybe because he was a walking basketcase at the time? Because he didn't want to apply too much pressure, do too much work? Psychologically ****ed from the rumble in the jungle? he wasn't half the fighter after 74.

according to you foreman is just about the strongest man in boxing history, who, by your own admission, was not a good boxer. you say that he had this power that helped to equalize fights with opponents who were technically more sound.
then you say that he was "psychologically ****ed" and so therefore he... was unable to fight his fight? which relied on brute strength, not boxing skill, right? there seems to be a contradiction there.

foreman was super strong, he wasnt a good boxer. it doesnt matter what was going on in his head at the time, the point is he was outboxed. plain and simple, his power couldnt change the fight if he couldnt catch up to the other guy, if he couldnt cut off the ring like a "master." he could be outboxed, by ali, a real master, and by the non-master jimmy young.
lennox lewis was a better boxer than ken norton, ron lyle and jimmy young. you could also argue that he was technically a better boxer than joe frazier. he doesnt come close to ali, but with those two exceptions, lennox is a better boxer than all of foremans quality opponents. who else did foreman beat, scott ledoux? george chuvalo? both top notch boxers, ha.

last thing im going to mention is the "glass jaw" of lennox. how do you see a glass jaw? i feel like a broken record here.
mccall and rahman, who both have respectable right hands, knocked down an out of shape lewis. he came back and kicked the **** out of both of them, taking the same exact shots he did in his losses. did his glass jaw turn into concrete only in his rematches??? or maybe only against mike tyson, evander holyfield, david tua, vitaly klitschko, ray mercer and tommy morrison AND in rematches. do any of those guys have a good punch? i guess not, because "lennox lewis had a glass jaw" and all they had to do was hit him and it was over, according to you. bull****.
if im only "an enthusiast of contemporary boxing" then you are obviously an asslicker of the boxers of yesteryear. you think those guys were gods and assume that they know tricks that todays guys dont. thats true for most boxers today, but lennox lewis was not most boxers, and he was the heavyweight champ of the world longer than foreman was.

LS-Injection
03-16-2006, 07:49 PM
George would get ***** slapped by Lennox...

Heckler
03-17-2006, 03:01 AM
according to you foreman is just about the strongest man in boxing history, who, by your own admission, was not a good boxer. you say that he had this power that helped to equalize fights with opponents who were technically more sound.
then you say that he was "psychologically ****ed" and so therefore he... was unable to fight his fight? which relied on brute strength, not boxing skill, right? there seems to be a contradiction there.

foreman was super strong, he wasnt a good boxer. it doesnt matter what was going on in his head at the time, the point is he was outboxed. plain and simple, his power couldnt change the fight if he couldnt catch up to the other guy, if he couldnt cut off the ring like a "master." he could be outboxed, by ali, a real master, and by the non-master jimmy young.
lennox lewis was a better boxer than ken norton, ron lyle and jimmy young. you could also argue that he was technically a better boxer than joe frazier. he doesnt come close to ali, but with those two exceptions, lennox is a better boxer than all of foremans quality opponents. who else did foreman beat, scott ledoux? george chuvalo? both top notch boxers, ha.

last thing im going to mention is the "glass jaw" of lennox. how do you see a glass jaw? i feel like a broken record here.
mccall and rahman, who both have respectable right hands, knocked down an out of shape lewis. he came back and kicked the **** out of both of them, taking the same exact shots he did in his losses. did his glass jaw turn into concrete only in his rematches??? or maybe only against mike tyson, evander holyfield, david tua, vitaly klitschko, ray mercer and tommy morrison AND in rematches. do any of those guys have a good punch? i guess not, because "lennox lewis had a glass jaw" and all they had to do was hit him and it was over, according to you. bull****.
if im only "an enthusiast of contemporary boxing" then you are obviously an asslicker of the boxers of yesteryear. you think those guys were gods and assume that they know tricks that todays guys dont. thats true for most boxers today, but lennox lewis was not most boxers, and he was the heavyweight champ of the world longer than foreman was.


Your a joke, ever heard of Logic? if so try to apply it. Foreman was psychologically ****ed and was outboxed by young because he didn't want to apply pressure. He was apprehensive and worried about tiring. Sluggers without boxing ability have to apply pressure and throw lots of punches in order to be most effective.Foreman didn't as the rumble in the Jungle was always playing on his mind. Lennox is no Ali, and only shares a few qualities. Tua didn't get a chance to land his best shots on Lennox. Out of shape or not, your jaw remains absolute after you have physically matured and Lennox got KFTO, he didn't drop as a result of mere exhaustion. Back to young, he's better then you give him credit for. He was a brilliant defensive boxer/counterpuncher and would give any modern boxer a run for there money including Lennox Lewis.

"you say that he was "psychologically ****ed" and so therefore he... was unable to fight his fight? which relied on brute strength, not boxing skill, right? there seems to be a contradiction there." - The problem is, Foreman tried to box and fight at a measured pace... the brutal, relentless slugging was essentially eliminated from his style. And it was the style that worked best for Foreman. Yes Foreman could be tired out, but there are few fighters in history that had the capacity to absorb the punishment of a peak foreman before he tired.

If you would like to stop being so moronic and slanted, look at Foremans pre 74' Career. Ill give you a little excerpt from Monte Cox, a reputable boxing historian that unlike yourself knows his ****.

"Those who believe that any “clever boxer” type could beat George often give the Jimmy Young fight as an example. Foreman showed up for this fight in San Juan the day before the fight and didn’t give himself time to get acclimated to the heat. He paced himself, fighting in his newfound measured style and did not throw a significant punch for the first 5 rounds. This was all wrong for him. The Foreman of Zaire would have tracked down Young, forced him to the ropes, went to the body with power and belted him out inside of a few short rounds. The 1973-74 Foreman, the one who cut the ring and really went after his man was the best Foreman. The George who lost to Young never really went after him. The Foreman who fought at a measured pace just was not the real Foreman." - Monte Cox

I know ive posted this earlier, but ill save you going back. READ AND LEARN FROM SOMEONE THAT DEDICATES THEIR LIFE TO WATCHING FOOTAGE AND LEARNING ABOUT THE FIGHTERS OF PAST AND PRESENT THEN MAKE INFORMED JUDGEMENTS WHILST PUTTING ANY BIAS AND FAVOURITISM ASIDE.

Ali struggled to beat Foreman, and the fact of the matter is Lennox wouldn't beat him at all.

MickyHatton
03-17-2006, 03:33 AM
Your a joke, ever heard of Logic? if so try to apply it. Foreman was psychologically ****ed and was outboxed by young because he didn't want to apply pressure. He was apprehensive and worried about tiring. Sluggers without boxing ability have to apply pressure and throw lots of punches in order to be most effective.Foreman didn't as the rumble in the Jungle was always playing on his mind. Lennox is no Ali, and only shares a few qualities. Tua didn't get a chance to land his best shots on Lennox. Out of shape or not, your jaw remains absolute after you have physically matured and Lennox got KFTO, he didn't drop as a result of mere exhaustion. Back to young, he's better then you give him credit for. He was a brilliant defensive boxer/counterpuncher and would give any modern boxer a run for there money including Lennox Lewis.

"you say that he was "psychologically ****ed" and so therefore he... was unable to fight his fight? which relied on brute strength, not boxing skill, right? there seems to be a contradiction there." - The problem is, Foreman tried to box and fight at a measured pace... the brutal, relentless slugging was essentially eliminated from his style. And it was the style that worked best for Foreman. Yes Foreman could be tired out, but there are few fighters in history that had the capacity to absorb the punishment of a peak foreman before he tired.

If you would like to stop being so moronic and slanted, look at Foremans pre 74' Career. Ill give you a little excerpt from Monte Cox, a reputable boxing historian that unlike yourself knows his ****.

"Those who believe that any “clever boxer” type could beat George often give the Jimmy Young fight as an example. Foreman showed up for this fight in San Juan the day before the fight and didn’t give himself time to get acclimated to the heat. He paced himself, fighting in his newfound measured style and did not throw a significant punch for the first 5 rounds. This was all wrong for him. The Foreman of Zaire would have tracked down Young, forced him to the ropes, went to the body with power and belted him out inside of a few short rounds. The 1973-74 Foreman, the one who cut the ring and really went after his man was the best Foreman. The George who lost to Young never really went after him. The Foreman who fought at a measured pace just was not the real Foreman." - Monte Cox

I know ive posted this earlier, but ill save you going back. READ AND LEARN FROM SOMEONE THAT DEDICATES THEIR LIFE TO WATCHING FOOTAGE AND LEARNING ABOUT THE FIGHTERS OF PAST AND PRESENT THEN MAKE INFORMED JUDGEMENTS WHILST PUTTING ANY BIAS AND FAVOURITISM ASIDE.

Ali struggled to beat Foreman, and the fact of the matter is Lennox wouldn't beat him at all.


This is a matter of opinion, I do not agree with yours, you mention that you dedicate your life to studying boxing, OK, I have too, in my opinion Foreman was one dimentional and when his come forward smash them to bits style didn't work he had no plan B.
No, Lewis was no Ali boxing wise but he had far more skills than Foreman and a far bigger punch than Ali.
Foreman destroyed Frazier becuase Frazier would not back down and attempted to out punch Foreman, he could have tried a hundred times and never won, and as you know styles make fights, Frazier was made for Foreman.
The win from Ali over Foreman if you watch the fight devoid of emotion was no great shakes, Ali allowed Foreman to use him as a punch bag until Foreman ran out of steam then the rest is history.
I am not saying that Lewis WOULD have beaten Foreman but what I am saying is that Lewis was far better than he gets credit for and the fight would have been far closer than you think.

In my opinion of course!

Heckler
03-17-2006, 05:39 AM
I was referring to Monte Cox. Foreman didn't have a plan B, but at the exception of Ali he would never have to revert to a plan B would he? Lennox having a bigger punch then Ali is offset by the fact he wasn't half as dynamic, fast or adaptable as Ali. He can have all the skill in the world, thats useless when hes bustled up against those ropes.

What Ali did was nothing great? Are you nuts, having the heart, determination and will to win against all the odds wasn't great? Although it was predominatly his strong mindset and ability to absorb punishment that allowed him to win his skills played a part. Ali was able to anticipate, and roll with Foremans punches using brilliant head movement, was able to get inside Foremans head with incessant talking, countered brilliantly off the ropes using his handspeed to overwhelm Foreman - Something Lennox would not be able to do. He would increase the verocity of his attacks relative to georges tiring - he essentially executed his plan perfectly. He was glorious on that night in 74' and that cannot be denied. He even picked apart George in center-ring and was able to see that Foreman was vunerable to a lead right, something i doubt many would have the balls to throw. Throwing a cross without setting it up against a man with such power isn't recommended, but Ali knew he wasn't expecting it thus he could get away with it. Ali was analytical in the ring to an extent Lennox has never been. I think Lennox is unique, hes one of the few boxers that this slump in HW boxing has produced that will be remembered in years to come. He was a very good boxer, but not good enough for a peak Foreman.

MickyHatton
03-17-2006, 08:21 AM
Dont get me wrong Heckler, I am not critising Ali one bit, he for me is the greatest sportsman ever to live, what I was stating was that technically the way he beat Foreman was not great.
Remember the were lots of questions asked after that fight in relation to the tauntness of the ropes and Foremans lack of ability to get to an heavy and ageing Ali.
That does not detract anything from Ali's performance becuase he was way past his best (I believe the World never saw his best due to the ban) and therefore he fought the smart fight and used the fact that he knew Foreman would try to take him out and continue to do so until he either succeeded or ran out of steam.
Ali knew that the heat of Africa would sap George and fought the correct fight!

My point is that George should have known this, even if he didn't he soon found out and yet he still came forward slugging, remember Ali said he would do this prior to the fight and likened George to a 'Mummy'

George was one dimentional, who did he beat? Norton overated, Frazier OK a great fighter but ready made for Georges style.
He lost to Ali, he lost to Jimmy Young who had lost 5 fights up to that point including against Ali (Jimmy lost 19 in total)

So why do you easily say that he would defeat Lennox Lewis, who was a former undisputed three time heavyweight champion, who lost only twice in his career to which he avenged both.
Lewis beat all comers in his era, some may have been getting on in age but there was no great age difference if you look at the facts.

Like I said I am not saying Lewis would have definately won but he would have definately given George a real fight.

OptimusWolf
03-17-2006, 08:39 AM
EDIT: ***I don't think Lewis would approach this fight in his pre-McCall style of unloading big shots at will. he'd most likely look to keep his distance, use his jab and concentrate on not eating bombs.****

Bad matchup for Lewis, and big george would win 9 times out of ten, although if Lewis could keep george from landing in the first half of the fight then I'd back Lewis to win a wide UD.

K-DOGG
03-17-2006, 10:00 AM
nice post. good karma and 50,000 points for you!

Butterfly, I just realized what you meant with your 50,000 points quote. Thank you; but forgive my ignorance, I'm a newbie. What's the "points" thing about?

sk1927
03-17-2006, 03:27 PM
Foreman would grill him!

Heckler
03-17-2006, 03:33 PM
Because Lewis has shown that A) he doesn't have the ability to absorb huge punishment B)Doesn't have great recooperative ability AT ALL. He is generally an offensive boxer when it was slick defensive boxers that would give george the most problems. He never showed great Stamina nor did he posess the handspeed required to somewhat neutralise george. Lennox is a big man, not exactly hard to find in the ring, he wouldn't be able to BOX George. He'd be cut off, bustled up against the ropes and forced to fight his way out thus fight George's game. Lewis would be drawn into a slugfest and no-one wins a slugfest with George Foreman. KO within 8 rounds. Im sure Lennox would make a good showing of himself, but there is no doubt in my mind that he would be KTFO.

And would people stop brining in post 74 Foreman matches. He was not CLOSE to the same fighter. Different style, different trainers, and generally less effective.

The Noose
03-17-2006, 03:57 PM
Some great arguments on the last couple of pages.

TheHoff'sGhost
03-17-2006, 03:58 PM
Because Lewis has shown that A) he doesn't have the ability to absorb huge punishment B)Doesn't have great recooperative ability AT ALL. He is generally an offensive boxer when it was slick defensive boxers that would give george the most problems. He never showed great Stamina nor did he posess the handspeed required to somewhat neutralise george. Lennox is a big man, not exactly hard to find in the ring, he wouldn't be able to BOX George. He'd be cut off, bustled up against the ropes and forced to fight his way out thus fight George's game. Lewis would be drawn into a slugfest and no-one wins a slugfest with George Foreman. KO within 8 rounds. Im sure Lennox would make a good showing of himself, but there is no doubt in my mind that he would be KTFO.

And would people stop brining in post 74 Foreman matches. He was not CLOSE to the same fighter. Different style, different trainers, and generally less effective.

great post :boxing:

MickyHatton
03-17-2006, 04:14 PM
Because Lewis has shown that A) he doesn't have the ability to absorb huge punishment B)Doesn't have great recooperative ability AT ALL. He is generally an offensive boxer when it was slick defensive boxers that would give george the most problems. He never showed great Stamina nor did he posess the handspeed required to somewhat neutralise george. Lennox is a big man, not exactly hard to find in the ring, he wouldn't be able to BOX George. He'd be cut off, bustled up against the ropes and forced to fight his way out thus fight George's game. Lewis would be drawn into a slugfest and no-one wins a slugfest with George Foreman. KO within 8 rounds. Im sure Lennox would make a good showing of himself, but there is no doubt in my mind that he would be KTFO.

And would people stop brining in post 74 Foreman matches. He was not CLOSE to the same fighter. Different style, different trainers, and generally less effective.


I certainly agree that there could only be one winner in a slugfest and thats Foreman, no argument there, I also think you have some valid points about cutting off the ring and how his size may actually impair him.
Its a hard one to swallow but you may be right, I may be converted!
The only point I will add is that Lewis had a jab like a sledge hammer and could KO any Heavyweight (take the Rahman KO) he could fight on the back foot but I agree that George would have given him serious trouble!

Yogi
03-17-2006, 05:48 PM
And would people stop brining in post 74 Foreman matches. He was not CLOSE to the same fighter. Different style, different trainers, and generally less effective.

Having just watched a few of Foreman's fights from both before and after the one with Ali, I'd say Big George was VERY close to the same fighter after 1974...

For example, Joe Frazier tried to be much more elusive in the rematch and unlike the first fight with Foreman, rarely attacked Big George head on. But Foreman used the same basic style of jabbing when Frazier was on the outside & within reach of it (which is how he started the first fight), threw numerous hooks & uppercuts when Frazier or he closed the distance and were mid/close range, and gave the same type of pressure in forcing Frazier back against the ropes (where Foreman again let the bombs go)...There was no noticable difference in speed of hand or foot, and besides the fact that Frazier fought him much different the second time around (Foreman didn't have to push Frazier off as much in the rematch, but still did when Frazier attacked him head-on), George Foreman fought with the same style he did against Frazier in the first fight, as well as other fights like against Boone Kirkman for example.

Southpaw Stinger
03-17-2006, 05:58 PM
Having just watched a few of Foreman's fights from both before and after the one with Ali, I'd say Big George was VERY close to the same fighter after 1974...

For example, Joe Frazier tried to be much more elusive in the rematch and unlike the first fight with Foreman, rarely attacked Big George head on. But Foreman used the same basic style of jabbing when Frazier was on the outside & within reach of it (which is how he started the first fight), threw numerous hooks & uppercuts when Frazier or he closed the distance and were mid/close range, and gave the same type of pressure in forcing Frazier back against the ropes (where Foreman again let the bombs go)...There was no noticable difference in speed of hand or foot, and besides the fact that Frazier fought him much different the second time around (Foreman didn't have to push Frazier off as much in the rematch, but still did when Frazier attacked him head-on), George Foreman fought with the same style he did against Frazier in the first fight, as well as other fights like against Boone Kirkman for example.

Physically George is no different. His basic fight style didn't change much and obviously his arsenal of shots remained the same. Mentally though George was different. This can be seen when comparing the two Frazier fights.

Fight 1, George goes for Frazier and tries to blast him at every oportunity. If Frazier slows down, Foreman pounces and attacks - just as he did with all fighters. Frazier was backed on the ropes and Foreman hit more and a lot harder.

Loses to Ali

Fight 2
George picks his shots more carefully and jabs more. He still attacks Joe when Frazier slows but Foreman doesn't throw relentless hooks as much anymore. Frazier is backed up against the ropes but Foreman doesn't off load, he looks for openings and throws smartly. George wasn't going to have another rope a dope happen.

Maybe George was a smarter fighter after Ali, but this came as a loss as it changed his primary and most dangerous fight style.

Yaman
03-17-2006, 06:23 PM
See, i didn't see the Foreman vs Young fight for years. I can't remember much of it but i always hear about Foreman being dominated in that fight.

How was that version of Foreman and how did Young outpoint him? Could Lewis do the same thing if so?

Yogi
03-17-2006, 06:27 PM
Physically George is no different. His basic fight style didn't change much and obviously his arsenal of shots remained the same. Mentally though George was different. This can be seen when comparing the two Frazier fights.

Fight 1, George goes for Frazier and tries to blast him at every oportunity. If Frazier slows down, Foreman pounces and attacks - just as he did with all fighters. Frazier was backed on the ropes and Foreman hit more and a lot harder.

Loses to Ali

Fight 2
George picks his shots more carefully and jabs more. He still attacks Joe when Frazier slows but Foreman doesn't throw relentless hooks as much anymore. Frazier is backed up against the ropes but Foreman doesn't off load, he looks for openings and throws smartly. George wasn't going to have another rope a dope happen.

Maybe George was a smarter fighter after Ali, but this came as a loss as it changed his primary and most dangerous fight style.

Most fighters who ring up a fairly long unbeaten streak are different when they lose that first pro fight and it just seems too convient to say Foreman "was not CLOSE to the same fighter" when these two eyes of mine tell me something completely opposite...

Unlike yourself, Stinger, when compared to their first go-around I see Foreman throwing as relentlessly in the rematch on those occasions when Frazier isn't backing/moving out of Foreman's range or when Foreman closed the gap from behind the jab...Frazier is the guy who's fighting the very noticably different fight in the rematch and his movement did nullify some of Foreman's punch rate & forced him to use the jab more. But Big George is still throwing the bombs in bunches basically every time he gets within that mid/long range that he liked so much.

Kid Achilles
03-17-2006, 06:31 PM
lennox wouldn't get out of the third round with foreman, if he makes it that far. none of lewis' punches would hurt george. george wins an easy early ko.

This is absolute fantasy. I see Foreman winning too but Lewis could very well knock him out. Lewis hit harder and had a better right hand than Ron Lyle, who came very close to knocking Foreman out. Foreman had a very good chin but it was not granite and Lewis had a HUGE right hand.

Yogi
03-17-2006, 06:49 PM
Frazier is backed up against the ropes but Foreman doesn't off load, he looks for openings and throws smartly. George wasn't going to have another rope a dope happen.

Just watched the first round of the rematch again and there was about a 40 second sequence there where Frazier had his back to the ropes on a couple of sides of the ring. And in that 40 second period it looked like Foreman threw 60-70 punches against Joe with the vast majority of those punches being hooks & uppercuts (a few left hand jabs or "feelers" also, but not many)...Foreman did not much appear to be concentrating on looking for openings during that sequence, did not look like he was worried much about the rope-a-dope, and he most definately WAS loading up on his power shots.

smasher
03-17-2006, 07:03 PM
Having just watched a few of Foreman's fights from both before and after the one with Ali, I'd say Big George was VERY close to the same fighter after 1974...

For example, Joe Frazier tried to be much more elusive in the rematch and unlike the first fight with Foreman, rarely attacked Big George head on. But Foreman used the same basic style of jabbing when Frazier was on the outside & within reach of it (which is how he started the first fight), threw numerous hooks & uppercuts when Frazier or he closed the distance and were mid/close range, and gave the same type of pressure in forcing Frazier back against the ropes (where Foreman again let the bombs go)...There was no noticable difference in speed of hand or foot, and besides the fact that Frazier fought him much different the second time around (Foreman didn't have to push Frazier off as much in the rematch, but still did when Frazier attacked him head-on), George Foreman fought with the same style he did against Frazier in the first fight, as well as other fights like against Boone Kirkman for example."Not close to the same fighter" is a stretch from Heckler, but in the Frazier re-match you have chosen Foreman's best (IMO) post Ali performance. Foreman's "looking good" and dominance can be attributed to a few things. Firstly, he had the supreme confidence against Frazier a fighter he had previously destroyed, and who had a style tailor made for Big George. Frazier was also post Manilla, and I believe Frazier left alot of himself in the ring against Ali that night and had deteriorated more so than Foreman since their first fight.

Foreman looked particularly bad against Lyle and Young. In the Lyle fight George wouldn't even unload on Lyle when Lyle covered on the ropes, instead choosing to play patty-cake with Lyle's gloves. His balance was poor, his punching was wild (even for Foreman), his chin looked shaky and just his all-round **** performance rates this as one of his worse performances, although it did put him and Lyle on a more even playing field which made for an exciting slugfest.

Against Young, Foreman was far too conservative and measured allowing Young to establish the fight and get past the early rounds which was traditionally Foreman territory. It was very apparent that Foreman (by his own admission) was afraid of punching himself out and in effect gave Young the breathing space required to win the fight.

Yogi
03-17-2006, 08:16 PM
"Not close to the same fighter" is a stretch from Heckler, but in the Frazier re-match you have chosen Foreman's best (IMO) post Ali performance. Foreman's "looking good" and dominance can be attributed to a few things. Firstly, he had the supreme confidence against Frazier a fighter he had previously destroyed, and who had a style tailor made for Big George. Frazier was also post Manilla, and I believe Frazier left alot of himself in the ring against Ali that night and had deteriorated more so than Foreman since their first fight.

Foreman looked particularly bad against Lyle and Young. In the Lyle fight George wouldn't even unload on Lyle when Lyle covered on the ropes, instead choosing to play patty-cake with Lyle's gloves. His balance was poor, his punching was wild (even for Foreman), his chin looked shaky and just his all-round **** performance rates this as one of his worse performances, although it did put him and Lyle on a more even playing field which made for an exciting slugfest.

Against Young, Foreman was far too conservative and measured allowing Young to establish the fight and get past the early rounds which was traditionally Foreman territory. It was very apparent that Foreman (by his own admission) was afraid of punching himself out and in effect gave Young the breathing space required to win the fight.

I probably have chosen the best fight Foreman fought post-Ali, Smasher, but I also compared it to what was probably his peak performance pre-Ali (only his fight with Norton could compare, in my opinion, but that was basically against a fighter who fought a totally opposite style to what he normally did) with the focus being on what Foreman was doing, how he was fighting stylistically, and how his skillset had compared to the first meeting (hand speed, foot speed, punch aresenal & variety, etc.).

Unfortunately we don't have much to go on of Foreman's during the 70's, because besides a collection of second and third raters, he only fought a few elite Heavyweights during that decade...Frazier x2 (depleted, but still highly ranked going into the rematch), Norton, Ali, Lyle and Young. And in those fights he had three quality performances in those matchups with top Heavyweights (Frazier x2, Norton) and three that weren't so good (Ali, Lyle, Young).

Foreman's always seemed to have had some issues with his balance and it seems those wild punches he threw had something to do with that. You see other fights of his pre-Ali where he loads up on his shots and then appears to stumble to catch his balance...He did that against Kirkman (another fight where Foreman was especially wild with his punches) and to a lesser extent, Frazier in their first meeting. No suprise he'd do that against Lyle also, who just may have been the hardest puncher Foreman had faced during the 70's (either he or Frazier, who didn't land much of anything in either fight with Big George, besides a couple of "backed him up" left hooks), which might expalin why George's "chin looked shaky" to some.

And Foreman may have looked somewhat conservative against Young, but how is that different than what he should against other fighters who tried staying away from him (Young was especially elusive for the first half of that fight and one could almost accuse him of "running away" at times)?

Ali slowed Foreman's attack down some in the first couple of rounds of that fight with his footwork (and combination punching) before reverting to the rope-a-dope. Peralta also slowed Foreman's attack down some in their second fight (Foreman concentrated mainly on trying to jab for the most part in that fight) by again making himself a pretty elusive target with that crouching & slippery style of his...Foreman basically only fought three fighters who focused some on making themselves an elusive target (Norton don't count because he was inept at even trying that style!) and each one of them had success in limiting his punch output or attack rate.

Heckler
03-17-2006, 09:46 PM
I think Foreman was a different fighter after that. He was apprehensive, tried to pace himself and never really went after fighters. Doesn't work to well when you have no fundementals. The seek and destroy Foreman was the best version. Everyone saw what he done to Ali. Ali was only able to stay off the ropes for the first round or so. In Ali's words 'I was using more energy trying to stay away from him then he was using trying to catch me'. Its essentially impossible for any fighter at the exception of a Pre-Layoff Ali to stay away from Foreman when he fought in that fashion. Thus Ali executed the rope-a-dope, something no other boxer in history would be able to do. The Foreman he fought was a confident fighter whom truly believed himself to be invincible in the ring, and he's probably the closest thing there was to it in boxing history. He left the ring a mental basketcase that never really went after opponents with confidence like he did previously.

A peak Foreman would go after Lennox, and without the ability to laterally move or handspeed comparable to Ali's to somewhat neutralise Foreman, he would inevitably be pushed onto the ropes and systematically destroyed.

"George was devastated by his loss to Ali, after taking time off he changed trainers hiring Gil Clancy and began to fight at a more measured pace. Although George had some success even at an old age fighting in a more controlled manner, the comeback version was never as good as the original seek and destroy version." - Monte Cox

"He paced himself, fighting in his newfound measured style and did not throw a significant punch for the first 5 rounds. This was all wrong for him. The Foreman of Zaire would have tracked down Young, forced him to the ropes, went to the body with power and belted him out inside of a few short rounds." - Monte Cox

^ thats what he would of done, would of gone for him initially and tried to take his head off.

Yogi
03-17-2006, 11:21 PM
Hmm...I see you quoting that Monte Cox character quite often Heckler, but what does his personal opinion matter to you?

He's an intelligent boxing fan (one of many on the net!), but I'm not really interested in his own personal opinions on something that I can judge with my own two eyes (Foreman from both pre & post Ali).

Do you take his words as facts or something?

"Joe Louis is the one man who would knock Muhammad Ali out!" - Monte Cox

"Stating that he(Louis) would beat Ali, I believe is wrong." - Heckler

Just wondering.

Yogi
03-18-2006, 01:53 AM
Speaking of the "more measured" version of George Foreman who "tried to pace himself"...Did anybody else notice that in his fight with Kenny Norton, Big George only attempted to throw one punch (a missed right uppercut to the body of Norton's) in the first 40 seconds of the fight?

Southpaw Stinger
03-18-2006, 08:21 AM
Just watched the first round of the rematch again and there was about a 40 second sequence there where Frazier had his back to the ropes on a couple of sides of the ring. And in that 40 second period it looked like Foreman threw 60-70 punches against Joe with the vast majority of those punches being hooks & uppercuts (a few left hand jabs or "feelers" also, but not many)...Foreman did not much appear to be concentrating on looking for openings during that sequence, did not look like he was worried much about the rope-a-dope, and he most definately WAS loading up on his power shots.

I think it's in round 4 when Frazier is up on the ropes a few times and Foreman does nothing except put a few jabs in now and again and wait for an opening.

Kid Achilles
03-18-2006, 01:34 PM
There was nothing wrong with Foreman's chin against Lyle; that's just what happens to most heavyweights when they get nailed by a straight right delivered by a 220 pound man who knows how to punch. Foreman's chin was solid but never granite. He looked impervious against Holyfield later in his career because Holyfield was never a big puncher and was a much smaller man. I've watched film of Ken Lakusta, a flabby 216 lber, seriously hurt Foreman with a right hand in 1990. Foreman would get hurt when you hit him flush. He was hardly hurt in his early career because most guys were too afraid to open up on him. If Lewis landed his best right hand on Foreman, he'd go down for sure. Possibly for the full count.

Morley
03-19-2006, 12:33 AM
Also, Lewis easily gets intimidated by power punches. I wonder how he would feel against the hardest hitting heavyweight ever.
George hit hard but i think Rocky hit harder.

Yogi
03-19-2006, 03:16 AM
I wonder how he would feel against the hardest hitting heavyweight ever.

Don't know about you, but I'd personally have no problem favouring Lewis over the hardest hitting Heavyweight of all-time, Earnie Shavers.


Speaking of Shavers' power;

"Oooh man, that man is always with me. He hit so hard, the HARDEST. I still feel his punches today." - so says Jimmy Young

"Shavers hit me so hard that it felt like needles were jabbing the back of my head. Without hesitation, Shavers was the hardest puncher I met." - so says Ron Lyle

"Shavers. No question. At least with Foreman I was able to get up. When Shavers hit me I went down and stayed down." - so says Ken Norton when asked who the hardest hitter he faced was


Some time ago someone else on here also posted a quote from Ali where he also called Shavers the hardest puncher he ever faced, and seeing as that's the opinions of four fighters who felt the punching power of both Foreman & Shavers, forgive me for thinking that their very informed opinions have some kinda validity.

Yogi
03-19-2006, 03:49 AM
I think it's in round 4 when Frazier is up on the ropes a few times and Foreman does nothing except put a few jabs in now and again and wait for an opening.

I'm all Foreman'd out after rewatching about eight of his fights from the 70's over the last couple of days, Stinger, but I'll throw the Frazier rematch in again tomorrow and see if I can somehow see what you're alluding to.

Southpaw Stinger
03-19-2006, 05:29 AM
I'm all Foreman'd out after rewatching about eight of his fights from the 70's over the last couple of days, Stinger, but I'll throw the Frazier rematch in again tomorrow and see if I can somehow see what you're alluding to.

Your very kind good sir.

Yaman
03-19-2006, 11:52 AM
Don't know about you, but I'd personally have no problem favouring Lewis over the hardest hitting Heavyweight of all-time, Earnie Shavers.


Speaking of Shavers' power;

"Oooh man, that man is always with me. He hit so hard, the HARDEST. I still feel his punches today." - so says Jimmy Young

"Shavers hit me so hard that it felt like needles were jabbing the back of my head. Without hesitation, Shavers was the hardest puncher I met." - so says Ron Lyle

"Shavers. No question. At least with Foreman I was able to get up. When Shavers hit me I went down and stayed down." - so says Ken Norton when asked who the hardest hitter he faced was


Some time ago someone else on here also posted a quote from Ali where he also called Shavers the hardest puncher he ever faced, and seeing as that's the opinions of four fighters who felt the punching power of both Foreman & Shavers, forgive me for thinking that their very informed opinions have some kinda validity.

Shavers is just a better puncher. You could see Foreman's bombs coming so you'd be better prepared for the impact.

Sure you can look at quotes. But i look at FOOTAGE, and i believe he hits a lot harder.

Southpaw Stinger
03-19-2006, 03:08 PM
Shavers is just a better puncher. You could see Foreman's bombs coming so you'd be better prepared for the impact.

Sure you can look at quotes. But i look at FOOTAGE, and i believe he hits a lot harder.

Damn right!

koiboy
03-19-2006, 03:25 PM
Hi, my favourite boxer of all time is Ali, for the sense of fun and skill and everything about him, the times I got up at 3am to watch him on tv in the UK were countless.

Everyone was in awe of him, even the refs, who let him get away with murder. Any other boxer would have been thrown out of the ring for holding so much, after 30 he was an octupus with his holding. Another boxer I like is George Foreman, the man, who has refreshing honesty in a world full of braggards.

I saw a young Cassius Clay fight against Henry Cooper, a 14st UK champion, and he gave clay a real even match fight, and even knocked Clay down in their first fight.

Joe Frazier would have been cannon fodder for Lewis, if ever a fighter was made for Lewis's style it was Frazier.
Although he is not my favourite personality, I reckon Lewis would have beaten them all, and George Foreman has been honest enough to say the same

MickyHatton
03-19-2006, 04:38 PM
Hi, my favourite boxer of all time is Ali, for the sense of fun and skill and everything about him, the times I got up at 3am to watch him on tv in the UK were countless.

Everyone was in awe of him, even the refs, who let him get away with murder. Any other boxer would have been thrown out of the ring for holding so much, after 30 he was an octupus with his holding. Another boxer I like is George Foreman, the man, who has refreshing honesty in a world full of braggards.

I saw a young Cassius Clay fight against Henry Cooper, a 14st UK champion, and he gave clay a real even match fight, and even knocked Clay down in their first fight.

Joe Frazier would have been cannon fodder for Lewis, if ever a fighter was made for Lewis's style it was Frazier.
Although he is not my favourite personality, I reckon Lewis would have beaten them all, and George Foreman has been honest enough to say the same

Thats true!
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/boxing/specials/lewis_v_tyson_fight/2036717.stm

Smashing
03-19-2006, 04:41 PM
If Foreman doesnt connect with his big punch, Lennox by a stoppage.

Yaman
03-19-2006, 04:43 PM
[/B]

Thats true!
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/boxing/specials/lewis_v_tyson_fight/2036717.stm


Lennox Lewis beats a washed up Tyson and he's the greatest of all time? Foreman had him lower on the list before he fought Tyson so i guess thats his reason to put him #1. Tyson was overrated at that time and it wasn't even a prime Tyson. Foreman has a dumbass list because he also put Ali on #7 i believe. Don't listen to him lol.

MickyHatton
03-19-2006, 04:51 PM
[QUOTE=Yaman]Lennox Lewis beats a washed up Tyson and he's the greatest of all time? Foreman had him lower on the list before he fought Tyson so i guess thats his reason to put him #1. Tyson was overrated at that time and it wasn't even a prime Tyson. Foreman has a dumbass list because he also put Ali on #7 i believe. Don't listen to him lol.[/QUOTE

OK, if you say so!

One of the great heavyweights makes a statement, people on here make a conflicting statement, who to believe?

Did you read the next paragraph?

Lewis' ranking alongside the heavyweight greats was also backed up by another fight legend - 'Smoking' Joe Frazier.

"Lennox is right up there with George Foreman and Muhammad Ali and he has proved himself the best heavyweight out there," Frazier said.

Lewis' trainer Emanuel Steward has often claimed that his fighter is the finest heavyweight to step into the ring since Ali dominated the division in the 1960s and 70s!

Two of the greatest Heavyweights! Oh and a great trainer!

Its all about opinions.

Yaman
03-19-2006, 04:59 PM
Both of them are making a mistake. They just put him in that position because he beat a washed up Tyson. Every top10 HW could beat that version of Tyson.

Yogi
03-19-2006, 05:26 PM
Shavers is just a better puncher. You could see Foreman's bombs coming so you'd be better prepared for the impact.

Sure you can look at quotes. But i look at FOOTAGE, and i believe he hits a lot harder.

Shavers might have been the technically better puncher (he had better leverage and slightly better speed), but both of them were somewhat wild with their punches most of the time and were prone to telegraphing them. Also one of Foreman's very best punches were his uppercuts that were tough to see coming from underneath, as were his hooks when he tightened them up...

Yeah, I can look at quotes from those who actually took punches from both and give their opinions some validity seeing as how they were actually in the best position to judge out of all of us. And like yourslef, I can also watch footage of them both and judge that with my own eyes (did you miss the posts where I was talking about actually fight footage of Foreman's or something?).

Here's some quick examples and I'll use a few of the fighters quoted & what I see;

vs. Norton -- Norton gradually looked the worse for wear over the course of the two rounds with Foreman, and after getting knocked down for the first time he then took five or six FLUSH shots on the chin before Big George finally got him out of there...After Shavers knocked down Norton for the first time he then only needed one single FLUSH right hand to the chin (big uppercut!) before the curtains fell on the proceedings.

vs. Lyle -- Foreman had Lyle rocked some in the second round of that fight, but Ronny still didn't look all that close to going down. It was then in the fourth round where both fighters sat ring center and traded a bunch of bombs that landed FLUSH on each other's chin before Lyle finally went down...Against Shavers, in the second round Lyle looked fresh as can be (moving & throwing well) before Shavers pressured Lyle to the ropes and landed only one HUGE & somewhat wild left hook that completely knocked the hell out of Lyle. He went down like he had been shot and every time I watch that fight I'm extremely suprised Lyle picked himself off the canvas, because the way he was flopping around down their trying to regain his senses, he looked about as out of it as a fighter could look after getting sent to the canvas (he's lucky that happened at the very end of the round, because I don't see him making it if there had been even a little bit of time left in the round).

vs. Ali -- Foreman did concentrate mainly on the body because Ali was doing an effective job at getting his arms in the way of Foreman's head shots (whether by blocking or just deflecting), but Big George still got through with a few very solid punches to Ali's head (specifically with the left hook, and to a lesser extent the uppercuts). But besides a brief moment in the 3rd or 4th rounds, Ali didn't look to be affected at all by those head shots that Foreman landed on him...Shavers on the other hand noticably & repeatedly rocked Ali or buckled his legs with that right hand of his over the first half of the fight, and especially over the last few rounds of it, after Ali seemed to have taken control over from about the 8th round til the 12th.

I haven't seen either of the Shavers/Young fights so I can't comment on them, but from the "FOOTAGE" that I see of them versus common opponents or uncommon opponents, to me Shavers has more of that *snap* 'lights out' power to his punches and does appear to be the harded hitter of the two according to both my eyes...and especially according to those common opponents who actually FELT the full effect of each of their respective power punches (out of the ones who felt Shavers power those aren't the only ones who thought he hit them the hardest...for one Holmes, who amazingly took a hellacious right hand from FLUSH Shavers and still managed to get up, is on record saying the same thing, although he never fought Foreman).

Heckler
03-19-2006, 05:35 PM
Shavers might have the harder punch but he wasn't as devestating in the ring as Foreman. Foreman had huge physical strength and power in both hands, he was a very good slugger.

Someone commented on George Foreman saying Lennox could take them all, then someone else posted quotes from Joe Frazier etc.

I dont take much note of what fighters say because its not the most reliable source. Often they are being MODEST, or slanted as a result of bitterness.

Southpaw Stinger
03-19-2006, 05:35 PM
Lennox Lewis beats a washed up Tyson and he's the greatest of all time? Foreman had him lower on the list before he fought Tyson so i guess thats his reason to put him #1. Tyson was overrated at that time and it wasn't even a prime Tyson. Foreman has a dumbass list because he also put Ali on #7 i believe. Don't listen to him lol.

Thats true, I think that George has some unfound brain damage.

RockyMarcianofan00
03-19-2006, 06:03 PM
this is a stupid thread IMO
Foreman would destroy Lewis in less then 5 rounds
Foremans strength would overwhelm Lewis, the only thing Lewis has is height, i don't even think lewis has weight,

Foremans strength + Lewis' chin = KTFO

Yogi
03-19-2006, 08:41 PM
Just looking through some of my boxing mags and I came across this very matchup in one of Ring Magazine's 2003 Collector's Annuals ("The 50 Greatest Fights You Never Saw"), but this is actually a pretty recent addition of mine despite it being a few years old, so...

I'm sure the following words will tick a few people off, or at the very least be written off as garbage or something like that by those who'll only give acknowledgement to written/published opinions that match their own...But I'll share it anyways;


"Foreman rushes Lewis to the ropes, swinging heavy hooks. Lewis holds, but George shakes him with an uppercut as the bell rings. After that Lewis boxes off the back foot while circling to his right, using his greater strength to hold Foreman whenever he gets close. Lewis' hand touches the canvas after he takes a right in the sixth, but Foreman is tiring. In the 10th, Foreman swings, but Lewis beats him to it with a cross followed by a left hook and a right uppercut. Foreman is up at eight, but Lewis ends the fight with a perfectly timed right hand."


*** Yogi neither endorses nor denies this author's opinion of how that Foreman/Lewis fight plays out, and only posted it for the hell of it.

smasher
03-19-2006, 09:06 PM
"Foreman rushes Lewis to the ropes, swinging heavy hooks. Lewis holds, but George shakes him with an uppercut as the bell rings. After that Lewis boxes off the back foot while circling to his right, using his greater strength to hold Foreman whenever he gets close. Lewis' hand touches the canvas after he takes a right in the sixth, but Foreman is tiring. In the 10th, Foreman swings, but Lewis beats him to it with a cross followed by a left hook and a right uppercut. Foreman is up at eight, but Lewis ends the fight with a perfectly timed right hand."I'm curious if this is supposed to be Foreman Mach I (69-77) or Foreman Mach II (87-97)....

Heckler
03-19-2006, 10:52 PM
Just looking through some of my boxing mags and I came across this very matchup in one of Ring Magazine's 2003 Collector's Annuals ("The 50 Greatest Fights You Never Saw"), but this is actually a pretty recent addition of mine despite it being a few years old, so...

I'm sure the following words will tick a few people off, or at the very least be written off as garbage or something like that by those who'll only give acknowledgement to written/published opinions that match their own...But I'll share it anyways;


"Foreman rushes Lewis to the ropes, swinging heavy hooks. Lewis holds, but George shakes him with an uppercut as the bell rings. After that Lewis boxes off the back foot while circling to his right, using his greater strength to hold Foreman whenever he gets close. Lewis' hand touches the canvas after he takes a right in the sixth, but Foreman is tiring. In the 10th, Foreman swings, but Lewis beats him to it with a cross followed by a left hook and a right uppercut. Foreman is up at eight, but Lewis ends the fight with a perfectly timed right hand."


*** Yogi neither endorses nor denies this author's opinion of how that Foreman/Lewis fight plays out, and only posted it for the hell of it.

I know not to take this seriously "using his greater strength to hold Foreman" Lennox was bigger, but Foreman was definately the strongest man to step in the ring. Exception possibly being Jeffries. And this is acknowledged by most historians i have come across, in particular Monte Cox. Foreman had horrible technique and the only reason he got away with it, and still managed to be one of the hardest hitters of all time is because he was gifted with freakish strength. There is no doubt in my mind that Lennox would not be able to hold george back. Lennox was quite clearly muscled around by holyfield, whom deserves acknowledgement for being incredibly strong himself, but Foreman is on a different level.

Yogi
03-20-2006, 12:05 AM
Foreman was definately the strongest man to step in the ring. Exception possibly being Jeffries. And this is acknowledged by most historians i have come across, in particular Monte Cox.

Out of curiousity, was Foreman "definately" the strongest man to step into the ring or "possibly" the strongest man to have ever entered the ring?

And another thing...

Seeing as you quote him or bring up his personal opinions so often, are you Monte's disciple or something?

Yogi
03-20-2006, 12:06 AM
P.S. Don't take that post as me disputing Foreman strength, Heckler.

Heckler
03-20-2006, 02:29 AM
Out of curiousity, was Foreman "definately" the strongest man to step into the ring or "possibly" the strongest man to have ever entered the ring?

And another thing...

Seeing as you quote him or bring up his personal opinions so often, are you Monte's disciple or something?

I should've said Possibly. Sorry i tend to focus on arguing rather than adhering to the conventions of the english language. Also, i see you quoting 'the ring' quite often. Are you hired by them to spread the word by any chance? Were you deemed the 'chosen one' by Nat?

I quote Monte Cox because he is a reputable Historian with articles and views easily accessible. I think hes a brilliant historian who presents his argument without the slanted views that are all too common among boxing enthusiasts and other historians. Believe it or not, i work and go to university thus don't always have time to sift through **** and get the quotes i would like.

Yogi
03-20-2006, 03:03 AM
I should've said Possibly. Sorry i tend to focus on arguing rather than adhering to the conventions of the english language. Also, i see you quoting 'the ring' quite often. Are you hired by them to spread the word by any chance? Were you deemed the 'chosen one' by Nat?

I quote Monte Cox because he is a reputable Historian with articles and views easily accessible. I think hes a brilliant historian who presents his argument without the slanted views that are all too common among boxing enthusiasts and other historians. Believe it or not, i work and go to university thus don't always have time to sift through **** and get the quotes i would like.

Yes, I'm the chosen one and seeing as you & I are on such good terms, please...call me Nigel for now on.

Nah, but seriously, I don't believe I've ever really tried to back up my own personal opinion with one of their writer's opinions, have I?

I know I've quoted their rankings on occasion and other more factual information like that, but off-hand I don't recall a time when I attempted to back up my own opinions with their own.


And Monte is a smart guy, for sure, whose opinions I respect a good deal because I know they're of the informed variety, even though I may not personally agree with him on all issues. But put it this way...Hank Kaplan is generally considered the premier boxing historian of the last fifty years (Monte himself has a TREMENDOUS amount of respect for Hank, as does any boxing 'historian' out there), and it is well known that he thinks a great deal of the talents of one Lennox Lewis. He speaks very, very well of Lewis' athletic ability, technical boxing abilty, and definately punching ability ("greatest right hand in the history of the heavyweight division and I would dare anyone to challenge that", so says Hank of Lewis). And in fact, Hank Kaplan also stated his opinion that in head-to-head matchups involving the greatest Heavyweights, he'd favour Lewis to finish with the overall best record out of all of them...Now do I agree with Kaplan's thoughts on Lewis? Well, I do respect them obviously because of who's stating that opinion, but no I don't quite agree with them. And besides as an example for this thread, nor would I bring them up to try to make my own opinion(s) seem more 'right'.


Ok, enough of that stuff...You want to focus on arguing or debating about Foreman's strength, I see. Well then let me ask you a question...

In your opinion, how is George Foreman stronger than say, George Godfrey, whose another historical Heavyweight noted for having tremendous physical strength?

Heckler
03-20-2006, 03:42 AM
Ill be honest Yogi, i simply do not know enough about Godfrey to debate. I know he was a pretty sucessful negro fighter that trained under blackburn and fought Langford, but thats the extent of my knowledge. Why i do generally believe Foreman to be as strong as jeffries if not the strongest HW of all time is because most historians i have come across note this. They dedicate their lives to boxing history, gather information and make judgements that i simply cannot. And in this case im willing to accept what i percieve as the general view among these historians. Ill conceed that my level of knowledge in regard to boxing history does not come close to competing with your own which has become quite apparent during this debate.

PS: I do not use the opinions of Monte Cox to make mine seem 'more right' I merely post them to give some insight to other people on the msgboard. Quite often Monte's opinions differ from my own.

smasher
03-20-2006, 05:06 AM
Seeing as you quote him or bring up his personal opinions so often, are you Monte's disciple or something?I've spoken to Monte many times online and awhile ago after another Monte Cox reference from Heckler, I dropped Monte a line and playfully accused him of being Heckler (He was Montrose on another site). Anyway Monte wrote back and after reading through some forums told me that the number of times this Heckler was quoting him, he could see why I thought that!

Heckler
03-20-2006, 06:52 AM
LOL... im not quite Monte Cox and i thought this would be apparent from my crap english... which isn't my first language. I cant actually recall quoting cox intensively in any other thread other then this one.

smasher
03-20-2006, 10:33 AM
LOL... im not quite Monte Cox and i thought this would be apparent from my crap english... which isn't my first language. I cant actually recall quoting cox intensively in any other thread other then this one.You quoted Monte on an earlier thread where reference was made to a 1991 letter Cox wrote to Ring Magazine (something about ALI), that's the one that I told Monte about. I did notice you swore more than Monte. I thought you might be Monte's evil sub-conscious lashing out at the boxing ignorant...

Yogi
03-20-2006, 03:22 PM
Jakob 'Monte' Cox...a.k.a. Heckler.

Yogi
03-20-2006, 03:56 PM
Why i do generally believe Foreman to be as strong as jeffries if not the strongest HW of all time is because most historians i have come across note this. They dedicate their lives to boxing history, gather information and make judgements that i simply cannot. And in this case im willing to accept what i percieve as the general view among these historians.

Hey, if you've come up with a balanced or consensus opinion on who the strongest Heavyweight of all-time is and you're basing that on what you've read from what you percieve to be reliable sources, then ****...I do something along the same lines with fighters (when footage of said fighter is lacking in quantity or quality) when it comes to determining just how great they were in their respective eras and how their respective "greatness" might compare to others of different eras.

Whether Foreman was the strongest or not, there's really no denying that he was right near the top of the all-time list in that category and we can see that strength evident in what we can actually see of him (like when he gave the 200 pound Boone Kirkman a two-handed shove to canvas to begin their fight). At the same time we can also see alittle bit of fight footage or that sparring footage of Jeffries where he completely man handles that guy in training, as he's picking him up and throwing his sparring mate around in circles like a rag doll. Ditto for a guy like Primo Carnera (the historian whom I most respect picks him as the strongest of all-time), whose strength was pretty legendary even before becoming a boxer and at the same time we can see him push a 200 pound guy off balance & halfway across the ring by only using one hand. Then we can also see Big George Godfrey repeatedly push Carnera back to the ropes over & over again from the footage of that fight that's available and maybe one might get the impression that Godfrey was physically stronger than Da' Preem...*shrugs*

Of course, we can also read contemporary writings of each of these fighters' great strength by those were in a better position to judge them than we are today, as we can of other fighters who were thought of as possessing great strength like Sullivan, Willard, etc...It might depend on how much you read of each of them and the descriptions of their physical strength, which is what you're alluding to.

Is Foreman the strongest Heavyweight of all-time?

Hmm..."possibly".

Then again, that disticntion might "possibly" belong to Jeffries, Carnera, Godfrey, or someone else named or even not named.

Dempsey 1919
03-20-2006, 04:04 PM
Hey, if you've come up with a balanced or consensus opinion on who the strongest Heavyweight of all-time is and you're basing that on what you've read from what you percieve to be reliable sources, then ****...I do something along the same lines with fighters (when footage of said fighter is lacking in quantity or quality) when it comes to determining just how great they were in their respective eras and how their respective "greatness" might compare to others of different eras.

Whether Foreman was the strongest or not, there's really no denying that he was right near the top of the all-time list in that category and we can see that strength evident in what we can actually see of him (like when he gave the 200 pound Boone Kirkman a two-handed shove to canvas to begin their fight). At the same time we can also see alittle bit of fight footage or that sparring footage of Jeffries where he completely man handles that guy in training, as he's picking him up and throwing his sparring mate around in circles like a rag doll. Ditto for a guy like Primo Carnera (the historian whom I most respect picks him as the strongest of all-time), whose strength was pretty legendary even before becoming a boxer and at the same time we can see him push a 200 pound guy off balance & halfway across the ring by only using one hand. Then we can also see Big George Godfrey repeatedly push Carnera back to the ropes over & over again from the footage of that fight that's available and maybe one might get the impression that Godfrey was physically stronger than Da' Preem...*shrugs*

Of course, we can also read contemporary writings of each of these fighters' great strength by those were in a better position to judge them than we are today, as we can of other fighters who were thought of as possessing great strength like Sullivan, Willard, etc...It might depend on how much you read of each of them and the descriptions of their physical strength, which is what you're alluding to.

Is Foreman the strongest Heavyweight of all-time?

Hmm..."possibly".

Then again, that disticntion might "possibly" belong to Jeffries, Carnera, Godfrey, or someone else named or even not named.

what about muhammad ali?

supaduck
03-20-2006, 04:05 PM
Either way he was stronger than big Len, I say Foreman wins by KO.

Heckler
03-21-2006, 02:09 AM
what about muhammad ali?

Ali had great strength, but i wouldn't say hes on the same level as those mentioned previously.

Dempsey 1919
03-21-2006, 02:14 AM
Ali had great strength, but i wouldn't say hes on the same level as those mentioned previously.

i say he is. he did fight foreman and big george couldn't push him around, so that says something right there.

joker
03-21-2006, 07:15 PM
LEwis would ali his ass

Stiv Rex
03-21-2006, 07:34 PM
Ali had great strength, but i wouldn't say hes on the same level as those mentioned previously.

ha, for once i agree with you, heckler.

Kid Achilles
03-21-2006, 07:47 PM
Who says Foreman couldn't push Ali around? Every time I watch Ali-Foreman I look for when Ali is pushing Foreman around and exerting his strength. I see only the opposite. I see Foreman shoving Ali back to make some room for his big "chasing punches" (where he kind of steps in and leans forward while throwing them). In fact, the only time I see Ali muscling Foreman around at all is later in the fight where Foreman looks dog tired and Ali is holding his head down with his arm. Is this what you're talking about? At that state, the referee would have probably been at even terms of strength with Foreman.

When both were fresh, Foreman was the stronger man in there.

Zigga
03-21-2006, 08:12 PM
Firstly if any of u think forman would run through Lewis ur crazy. It would be a hell of a fight. Imo it could go to anyone, if Forman hits him, we know its lights out but lewis when he wanted too hit damn hard too, hard enough to ko anyone. Lewis chin wasnt the best but he didnt have a glass jaw, that rahman shot would have knocked anyone out.

STILL_DETOX
02-27-2010, 03:32 PM
lewis batters him to a pulp

sonnyboyx2
02-28-2010, 04:40 AM
Two huge men. Lennox is clearly larger than Big George, with more boxing skills, but Foreman has a bigger punch and intimidation. Who wins in this clash of the titans?

if Oliver McCall & Hasim Rahman can put Lewis lights out then Big George would smash his lamp into a million pieces

sonnyboyx2
02-28-2010, 04:43 AM
Firstly if any of u think forman would run through Lewis ur crazy. It would be a hell of a fight. Imo it could go to anyone, if Forman hits him, we know its lights out but lewis when he wanted too hit damn hard too, hard enough to ko anyone. Lewis chin wasnt the best but he didnt have a glass jaw, that rahman shot would have knocked anyone out.

then why did Rahman never poleaxe any other opponent in his whole career like he did Lewis... it was down to Lewis weak chin.. the same aplies to his KO loss to McCall.. why did McCall not poleaxe Bruno or old Holmes like he had Lewis