View Full Version : Prime Muhammad Ali-Invincible?


angelo_dundee
01-29-2006, 11:47 PM
Muhammad Ali is widely regarded as the greatest HW ever. He had it all, speed, chin, heart, movement, tactics-more so then any other big man in History.

At his prime, was the self styled-and acknowledged- greatest invincible?

Who would have the best chance of dethroning the Greatest in his pre lay-off/exile years?

Heckler
01-30-2006, 12:00 AM
i believe no fighter could take out the cleveland williams Ali 3/5 times. No-1. That was Ali at his very best... powerful, explosive, fast on his feet and in his hands, and very hard to find in the ring. People say he wasn't as smart in those days, of course he was... there was never any necessity to use them to a great extent.

RockyMarcianofan00
01-30-2006, 12:05 AM
no fighter is invincible even the SELFPROCLAIMED greatest
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Heckler
01-30-2006, 12:05 AM
Who could POSSIBLY take him out 2/5 times... frazier, holmes, louis. No-1 else. Some might argue Rocky Marciano... a sports writer once put it 'Ali would be too fast and fancy for the rock' and thats pretty much right. Ali would stop Marciano on cuts without a doubt. Ali was the greatest, but he could be beat. People are entitled to their opinions, i may disagree... but if people wish to put Ali at 2) so be it, aslong as Louis is at 1.

McKay 1
01-30-2006, 02:33 AM
Not at all was he invinciable. Very, Very far from being any sort of humble man, Ali admitted after being beat down by Frazier that if he had fought he him earlier in his career he just would have beaten earlier and worse.

JuicyJuice
01-30-2006, 02:41 AM
Joe Louis would of caught him up with him, floored him and finished him.

hellfire508
01-30-2006, 06:47 AM
Nobody is invincible. But I would pick NOBODY over him on his best night.

Boxclever
01-30-2006, 07:15 AM
Probably not invincible. Pretty close though. ;)

LondonRingRules
01-30-2006, 07:30 AM
=========i believe no fighter could take out the cleveland williams Ali 3/5 times.==========

** Cleveland Williams was KOed by lots of fighters. Moreover Williams was very damaged goods when Ali fought him. I'm sure you believe in pie in the sky too.

Ali was as close to invincible as any fighter ever. I'd say a peak Tyson exceeds him though, and a peak Dempsey comes close.

angelo_dundee
01-30-2006, 07:37 AM
Please, esp with the dimensions Dempsey would be conceding.

Brockton Lip
01-30-2006, 08:10 AM
I don't see anyone beating a Prime Ali 2/3, and especially not 3/5. The best chance I guess would be a Prime Louis, Marciano, Tyson (Ali did not like fighting this style, he said this after Patterson).

angelo_dundee
01-30-2006, 10:15 AM
Marciano lacked the speed and style of beat Ali. He would never be fast enough to get inside, and at what 5'10, losing over 6 inches on reach ect, Ali would destroy him. It would be a poorer version of the lop sided Liston fights Ali had.

I think Larry, with his similar style, great jab and stuff may test Muhammad Ali now and then. That would be an incredible fight to watch.

What of Lennox?

Lacks the chin, but was huge, and would take Ali some time to wear down. Cant see him beating the Man, but would make for an interesting fight.

Oasis_Lad
01-30-2006, 10:17 AM
if all the great fighters at their peaks fought great ali 3 times each ali would certainly win 2 out of 3 at least

angelo_dundee
01-30-2006, 10:20 AM
Likely 3 out of 3.

Dempsey 1919
01-30-2006, 10:38 AM
well, no fighter is invincible, but ali is the closest to being that in his prime. his real prime actually started with the folley fight, so i think that ali from 1967-1970 would be invincible, cause he would have been as strong as he was in the 1970s, and as fast as he was in the 1960s. with that combination of speed and strength, there is no way he could be beat. but an ali in 1967 most likely would beat any version of any fighter. '71 frazier would have some chance, so would '80 holmes and '88 tyson. but most likely he would still beat them!

http://www.poster.net/ali-muhammad/ali-muhammad-muhammad-ali-vs-sonny-liston-4900221.jpg

angelo_dundee
01-30-2006, 10:44 AM
Aliiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii!

You know it!

Southpaw Stinger
01-30-2006, 11:16 AM
Ali is the greatest and the closest you will get to an invincible fighter.

Frazier's 15th round
01-30-2006, 12:15 PM
It would take an all time great to beat him, but it can be done. Nobody is invincible.

RedRum
01-30-2006, 01:03 PM
Louis and Dempsey would of both beaten him.

LS-Injection
01-30-2006, 01:18 PM
Are you sure, prime Ali had some mean hands!

Dempsey 1919
01-30-2006, 01:37 PM
Louis and Dempsey would of both beaten him.

ha! gene tuunney beat dempsey, so ali would have done worse! and louis always had trouble with movers, so ali would have him dizzy and confused. both louis and dempsey had weak chins, and ali had a strong chin, so combine all of that and you have ali knockihg both louis and dempsey into next week!

Yaman
01-30-2006, 02:12 PM
Ali was NOT the perfect fighter. He had no ****ing power. Foreman has Ali on nr.7 on his top 10 heavweight list, why?, he didn't have explosive KO power.

And, the greatest boxer of all time should probably be determined by most succesfull boxing career, therefor, JOE LOUIS WAS THE GREATEST :boxing:

Again, Ali and every single fighter EVER weren't unbeatable. NEVER EVER has there been a fighter like that. I mean they are human and can be beaten.

angelo_dundee
01-30-2006, 02:15 PM
No power?

Man, he has a good KO %. KO'd Foreman's ass!

Liston's...

Ali hammered good fighters. Angelo knows boxing,not me, the genuine one, and he maintains that when Muhammad got of his feet and banged, few could bang with Ali.

The Noose
01-30-2006, 02:15 PM
ha! gene tuunney beat dempsey, so ali would have done worse! and louis always had trouble with movers, so ali would have him dizzy and confused. both louis and dempsey had weak chins, and ali had a strong chin, so combine all of that and you have ali knockihg both louis and dempsey into next week!

I dont think Louis had a weak chin.
Against Schmelling he took that right hand over and over again, until he got stopped.
He was never beaten again until after he came out of retirement.

Ali hardly ever got hit, yet he did get KD and seriously hurt against Henry Cooper and obviously Frazier.

Ali probably had the better chin, but not that much better.



But i agree, i believe he was too fast, accurate and unorthadox enough to beat Louis.

The Noose
01-30-2006, 02:17 PM
Also i dont know why u think Dempsy had a weak chin. With his come forward style he didnt have much of a defense and was a great champion.

It would have ben very awkward for Ali to hit a guy who crouches so low.

The Noose
01-30-2006, 02:21 PM
I give Louis and Tyson a punchers chance against Ali.

Tyson was very quick and threw such rapid powerful combos, he might have been too strong for Ali to keep off in the first few rounds.

Tyson would have destroyed him if it was the Ali that fought Foreman. Against the ropes, i dont see Ali being able to stand that body and head punishment.

Yaman
01-30-2006, 02:22 PM
No power?

Man, he has a good KO %. KO'd Foreman's ass!

Liston's...

Ali hammered good fighters. Angelo knows boxing,not me, the genuine one, and he maintains that when Muhammad got of his feet and banged, few could bang with Ali.

Sure he has some good ko's on his record. But how many of those truly displayed power punching?

Foreman himself said that he didn't get knocked out because of his power. He was knocked down because he was cought with the 2 fastest hooks he ever received and he was out of balance. He also said he should've gotten up from that knock down. Something had to do with his corner.

Southpaw Stinger
01-30-2006, 02:28 PM
I think someone who still whups everyones ass even though they apparently lack KO power, is a greater fighter than someone who clubs their way to success!

angelo_dundee
01-30-2006, 02:29 PM
All I know is that Ali Ko'd plenty of cats.

Dempsey 1919
01-30-2006, 03:15 PM
Ali was NOT the perfect fighter. He had no ****ing power. Foreman has Ali on nr.7 on his top 10 heavweight list, why?, he didn't have explosive KO power.

And, the greatest boxer of all time should probably be determined by most succesfull boxing career, therefor, JOE LOUIS WAS THE GREATEST :boxing:

Again, Ali and every single fighter EVER weren't unbeatable. NEVER EVER has there been a fighter like that. I mean they are human and can be beaten.

yeah, tell that to cleveland williams, zora folley, floyd patterson, and jerry quarry. better yet, tell that to mostly everyone he fought.

ali wasn't a one punch artist, but when he was flatfooted, he hit very hard. his power is the most underrated in history.

angelo_dundee
01-30-2006, 03:22 PM
Aye. I have been making this point for ages. Ali could really hit.

LS-Injection
01-30-2006, 03:51 PM
Lol i said that!

Yaman
01-30-2006, 05:27 PM
All of his knock outs were a flurry of combinations(Wich is beautifull ofcource) not the sign of true punching power.

angelo_dundee
01-30-2006, 06:49 PM
Son hit hard enough. Ask Liston. "That wasnt the guy I was supposed to fight...that boy could punch".

LS-Injection
01-30-2006, 08:06 PM
Did you just make that up!

hellfire508
01-30-2006, 09:19 PM
Son hit hard enough. Ask Liston. "That wasnt the guy I was supposed to fight...that boy could punch".


Exactly. ALi not hitting hard is a myth.

Liston had an iron jaw, took absolute bombs from Williams. Ali nearly but him on the canvas in the 3rd and 6th rounds. He did put him on his ass in the 2nd fight, but everyone will start yelling about a fix, so we won't bring that up.

Foreman had an iron jaw, and he was KD'd. Exhaustion was a factor, but the combination Ali finished with was brutal. Througout the fight, you see George's head snap back with right hand leads etc.

Ali KO'd the granite chinned Bonavena.

Ali - no power = MYTH.

He was no Louis or Foreman, but the man could hit - especially when he wasn't up on his toes, throwing right hands in mid-air.

tommyhearns804
01-31-2006, 12:46 AM
A prime Ali in invincible?Ha right i suppose that is why Ali walks around today with severe brain damage right?No man is invincible period.
Ali in the beggining of his career fought weaker people than Tyson did and at least the guys Tyson fought were true heavyweights.Most of the people Ali fought at that time were about 190 pounds or less and a few of them rocked him or dropped him with one punch.Liston was the best fighter he fought then and who the hell is Liston?A guy best known for knocked out glass chin super middle weight Floyd Patterson WOW.
When Ali began to fight real opposition when he came back after his 3 year exile you saw the kind of fighter he really was.He struggled against any fighter who wasn't dead slow on their feet.And as i said before if Ali was old at 30 then why was Lewis steal considered in his prime in his late 30's?Why was Foreman still fighting guys like a prime Holyfield in his 40's and doing better than Ali did against people like Leon Spinks when Ali was in his 30's?
Just watch Ali 2 fights with Quarry.He fought Quarry just like he did lets say Liston.Because Quarry was slow on his feet and had limited boxing skills.If you had a jab and didn't try to knock out Ali with every punch you could beat him.Even if you weren't really a great fighter.Guys like Douglas would be able to outbox Ali.And if you think this is wrong just watch Ali vs Doug Jones when Ali was in his 20's.Jones was a small guy but he used his jab and Ali couldn't stop it and Jones hurt Ali big time.
Guys like Lewis would have a easy time with Ali.Lewis was ****y but he never went for a one punch Ko like Foreman did which was the reason Foreman lost.Even a guy like Bryd would put up a great fight with Ali and might get the nod.Akinwande,Bowe, and and other taller fighter would either put up a great fight or win or even stop him if they had power.Even a guy like Tyson would knock out out Ali.You could say Frazier had more heart which he did but Tyson had more power.He was a bigger man with faster hands than Frazier.Tyson didn't have a great chin but he was never knocked down by one punch and Ali wouldn't do it either.A in shape Tyson would jump all over Ali and stop him.
Every fighter who steps in the ring will lose if he fights long enough or fights enough good fighters.Ali was no different.The fighters who had the most over all talent at heavyweight and were probably the toughest to beat were a in shape Lewis,or a humble Foreman but guess what?They still lost.
Fans of Ali get carried away sometimes.You act like the man had no flaws when in reality he had huge flaws.He couldn't really hurt you if you had a good chin,Ali didn't really have that good of a chin.He only been down 4 times but he was hurt with one punched so many times even by guys alot smaller than him,And even though you may heard other wise Ali wasn't really a good boxer.He basically only threw a jab and a right hand.Which ment if Ali was fighting a guy who was good at avoiding the right hand Ali would be screwed.For example Both Foreman and Lewis coudl be hit by a right hand in their primes but neither one got hit with many clean hooks.Ali rarely threw any punches to the body so he couldn't tire a man down that way.Ali had poor stamina which wouldn't be a big deal if he had great power and knocked out guys quick (Ali was tired in more fights than Foreman was but some how Foreman got stucked with the poor stamina bull crap).
Give Ali credit for showing heart and for fighting alot of top fighters but don't make this man out to be some type of god because he wasn't none of us are.ALI WAS GOOD BUT NO MAN IS INVINCIBLE.

Dirt E Gomez
01-31-2006, 03:43 AM
Hearns sums up many of my views, and Hellfire... His KO of Foreman was vicious? That is quite possibly the most laughable statement I've read today. Foreman has great defense and a great chin, it was pure exaustion and frustration that prevented George from going on, and nothing more (except maybe a lack of heart).

Yaman
01-31-2006, 07:01 AM
A prime Ali in invincible?Ha right i suppose that is why Ali walks around today with severe brain damage right?No man is invincible period.
Ali in the beggining of his career fought weaker people than Tyson did and at least the guys Tyson fought were true heavyweights.Most of the people Ali fought at that time were about 190 pounds or less and a few of them rocked him or dropped him with one punch.Liston was the best fighter he fought then and who the hell is Liston?A guy best known for knocked out glass chin super middle weight Floyd Patterson WOW.
When Ali began to fight real opposition when he came back after his 3 year exile you saw the kind of fighter he really was.He struggled against any fighter who wasn't dead slow on their feet.And as i said before if Ali was old at 30 then why was Lewis steal considered in his prime in his late 30's?Why was Foreman still fighting guys like a prime Holyfield in his 40's and doing better than Ali did against people like Leon Spinks when Ali was in his 30's?
Just watch Ali 2 fights with Quarry.He fought Quarry just like he did lets say Liston.Because Quarry was slow on his feet and had limited boxing skills.If you had a jab and didn't try to knock out Ali with every punch you could beat him.Even if you weren't really a great fighter.Guys like Douglas would be able to outbox Ali.And if you think this is wrong just watch Ali vs Doug Jones when Ali was in his 20's.Jones was a small guy but he used his jab and Ali couldn't stop it and Jones hurt Ali big time.
Guys like Lewis would have a easy time with Ali.Lewis was ****y but he never went for a one punch Ko like Foreman did which was the reason Foreman lost.Even a guy like Bryd would put up a great fight with Ali and might get the nod.Akinwande,Bowe, and and other taller fighter would either put up a great fight or win or even stop him if they had power.Even a guy like Tyson would knock out out Ali.You could say Frazier had more heart which he did but Tyson had more power.He was a bigger man with faster hands than Frazier.Tyson didn't have a great chin but he was never knocked down by one punch and Ali wouldn't do it either.A in shape Tyson would jump all over Ali and stop him.
Every fighter who steps in the ring will lose if he fights long enough or fights enough good fighters.Ali was no different.The fighters who had the most over all talent at heavyweight and were probably the toughest to beat were a in shape Lewis,or a humble Foreman but guess what?They still lost.
Fans of Ali get carried away sometimes.You act like the man had no flaws when in reality he had huge flaws.He couldn't really hurt you if you had a good chin,Ali didn't really have that good of a chin.He only been down 4 times but he was hurt with one punched so many times even by guys alot smaller than him,And even though you may heard other wise Ali wasn't really a good boxer.He basically only threw a jab and a right hand.Which ment if Ali was fighting a guy who was good at avoiding the right hand Ali would be screwed.For example Both Foreman and Lewis coudl be hit by a right hand in their primes but neither one got hit with many clean hooks.Ali rarely threw any punches to the body so he couldn't tire a man down that way.Ali had poor stamina which wouldn't be a big deal if he had great power and knocked out guys quick (Ali was tired in more fights than Foreman was but some how Foreman got stucked with the poor stamina bull crap).
Give Ali credit for showing heart and for fighting alot of top fighters but don't make this man out to be some type of god because he wasn't none of us are.ALI WAS GOOD BUT NO MAN IS INVINCIBLE.

Very true. Finally, you're not dissing Tyson for a change.

Boxclever
01-31-2006, 08:04 AM
To say Ali had no power would just be wrong. That said power isn't everything and Ali's record stands up for itself those who managed to beat him he avenged. (till he was a shot fighter anyway) :p

angelo_dundee
01-31-2006, 08:11 AM
Ali's record contains more high class opponents then any other HW ever.

Boxclever
01-31-2006, 08:15 AM
Ali's record contains more high class opponents then any other HW ever.


I Hadn't thought of it like that but yes you're spot on there :)

angelo_dundee
01-31-2006, 08:25 AM
I truly believe that Ali pre exile was the perfect fighting machine.

And I am known for my REALISTIC pov's.

Brassangel
01-31-2006, 10:30 AM
Invincible? No. The best? Yes.

A man who weighs 210+ pounds and has really quick, accurate hands will punch hard. That's generally the mechanics of it. His power is not the most underrated in history; it's right in the middle where it should be. He had enough power, and enough gas in the tank to finish off his tired and confused opponents. It was there when it needed to be.

This is not why he defeated many of his opponents, pre-layoff, however. Often times his opponents never changed their gameplan to face a heavyweight who fought like a middleweight. Ali was not so fast that people couldn't catch him; it's rediculous to think that. His opponents just failed to prepare themselves properly to conserve energy while trapping Ali's movement.

There are a few fighters who probably could have done this, but Ali was fortunate enough to avoid such eras. The key is to be at the spot he's dancing to before he gets there. A person can always move faster when going forward than another can while moving backwards or side to side. His opponents rarely caught on to this, however, until after he returned to the ring in 1970.

Ali nuthuggers have to think about something for a moment. In 1967, Ali had reached his physical prime. Automatically people scream that he would have continued as such until about 1971 or so, and remained undefeated. First of all, Ali wasn't even accepted as a quality champion until 1966 or 1967, so there weren't fighters truly gunning for a method to stop a dancer. Had Ali remained in the sport, you would have seen a humbled version of Muhammad Ali between 67-71 as more and more fighters found ways to counter his speed. Would they have beaten him? Not necessarily, but it's a more fair and reasonable assumption than one that makes him invincible. During his layoff people began preparing for ways to tackle fast fighters and it showed when he returned to the ring. Ali wasn't so much slower in 1970 that it allowed for him to get caught where he otherwise would have been uncatchable, but he did lose a step. Combine this with the fact that more people figured out ways to close the gap and you get some frustrating moments for Ali.

This is all a testament to his greatness. The entire boxing world had to find ways to be prepared for a swifter, more patient opponent. In the 1980's there weren't many big names, but there were more boxers who were pure athletes. Faster fighters with more longevity. They beat up on each other enough, however, that very few names from that era emerged. All of this changed because of Muhammad Ali.

Invincible? No. The best? Yes.

angelo_dundee
01-31-2006, 11:00 AM
Your whole argument is conjecture. We can only assume that Ali would have grown even more dominant in the 3 years he missed. No one at that time had the style to test his movement, not even Joe.

A hypothetical 1969 match, Ali without lay off, would cruise past Joe, on account of his graceful speed. Amen.

Yaman
01-31-2006, 11:23 AM
Ali's speed speed speed speed speed.

Tyson had the speed in his feet to catch this arrogant cat and counter him.

angelo_dundee
01-31-2006, 11:26 AM
What, Mike "plz dont fight back cos I'm a coward" Tyson?

Son plz. Now thats not my real view of Mikey, I have mad love for him, but Ali would hand him his ass. Each and every time.

Southpaw Stinger
01-31-2006, 11:28 AM
Tyson had the speed in his feet to catch this arrogant cat and counter him.

So what if he could catch him? Whats Tyson gonna do? If Foreman couldn't KO ALi, certainly little Tyson couldn't!

Yaman
01-31-2006, 11:46 AM
So what if he could catch him? Whats Tyson gonna do? If Foreman couldn't KO ALi, certainly little Tyson couldn't!

That's not a good logic. If this is this, than that will etc.

Foreman fought a horrible fight, couldn't connect with his wild swings, running out of gas later in the rounds. Tyson was better than Foreman at everything except power maybe.

He would get Ali and counter his arrogant ass.

angelo_dundee
01-31-2006, 12:18 PM
You're like a total clown.

No one who knows this game places Mikey on par with the Greatest.

Southpaw Stinger
01-31-2006, 01:00 PM
Mike Tyson would get owned by Ali before the fight. He was a bit mentally soft and I doubt he'd have much resistance to Ali's taunts!

Frazier's 15th round
01-31-2006, 03:34 PM
A hypothetical 1969 match, Ali without lay off, would cruise past Joe, on account of his graceful speed. Amen.

One of the worst arguments I've seen, and it's been brought up too many times. Frazier is a pressure fighter, he would have absolutely NO PROBLEM in catching up to Ali and hitting him. Also funny that you should mention 1969, as I believe that was the best Joe Frazier we ever saw. While he was in amazing shape in 1971, cataracts at that point caused him to only throw left hooks, and basically use his right to only block.

To say Ali would "cruise" past Joe is silly, and you have nothing to back it up. Most people say Ali's best wins were against Folley, Williams, and Terrell. Well, Folley was 35 years old, and I haven't seen the match in a while, but I thought that Folley was doing a decent job. Williams was literally shot, so you can't really base Ali's greatness and "blinding" speed off this win. This leaves Terrell. Ali was accused of sticking his thumb in Terrell's eye 3 times.

Frazier's 15th round
01-31-2006, 03:37 PM
Mike Tyson would get owned by Ali before the fight. He was a bit mentally soft and I doubt he'd have much resistance to Ali's taunts!

Another poor argument. He was mentally soft, and couldn't handle the taunts. Ali would beat him before the fight even started, blah, blah, blah. I'm not a big Tyson fan myself, but he was great in his prime. And he would have given Ali a good fight.

Dempsey 1919
01-31-2006, 03:40 PM
A prime Ali in invincible?Ha right i suppose that is why Ali walks around today with severe brain damage right?No man is invincible period.
Ali in the beggining of his career fought weaker people than Tyson did and at least the guys Tyson fought were true heavyweights.Most of the people Ali fought at that time were about 190 pounds or less and a few of them rocked him or dropped him with one punch.Liston was the best fighter he fought then and who the hell is Liston?A guy best known for knocked out glass chin super middle weight Floyd Patterson WOW.
When Ali began to fight real opposition when he came back after his 3 year exile you saw the kind of fighter he really was.He struggled against any fighter who wasn't dead slow on their feet.And as i said before if Ali was old at 30 then why was Lewis steal considered in his prime in his late 30's?Why was Foreman still fighting guys like a prime Holyfield in his 40's and doing better than Ali did against people like Leon Spinks when Ali was in his 30's?
Just watch Ali 2 fights with Quarry.He fought Quarry just like he did lets say Liston.Because Quarry was slow on his feet and had limited boxing skills.If you had a jab and didn't try to knock out Ali with every punch you could beat him.Even if you weren't really a great fighter.Guys like Douglas would be able to outbox Ali.And if you think this is wrong just watch Ali vs Doug Jones when Ali was in his 20's.Jones was a small guy but he used his jab and Ali couldn't stop it and Jones hurt Ali big time.
Guys like Lewis would have a easy time with Ali.Lewis was ****y but he never went for a one punch Ko like Foreman did which was the reason Foreman lost.Even a guy like Bryd would put up a great fight with Ali and might get the nod.Akinwande,Bowe, and and other taller fighter would either put up a great fight or win or even stop him if they had power.Even a guy like Tyson would knock out out Ali.You could say Frazier had more heart which he did but Tyson had more power.He was a bigger man with faster hands than Frazier.Tyson didn't have a great chin but he was never knocked down by one punch and Ali wouldn't do it either.A in shape Tyson would jump all over Ali and stop him.
Every fighter who steps in the ring will lose if he fights long enough or fights enough good fighters.Ali was no different.The fighters who had the most over all talent at heavyweight and were probably the toughest to beat were a in shape Lewis,or a humble Foreman but guess what?They still lost.
Fans of Ali get carried away sometimes.You act like the man had no flaws when in reality he had huge flaws.He couldn't really hurt you if you had a good chin,Ali didn't really have that good of a chin.He only been down 4 times but he was hurt with one punched so many times even by guys alot smaller than him,And even though you may heard other wise Ali wasn't really a good boxer.He basically only threw a jab and a right hand.Which ment if Ali was fighting a guy who was good at avoiding the right hand Ali would be screwed.For example Both Foreman and Lewis coudl be hit by a right hand in their primes but neither one got hit with many clean hooks.Ali rarely threw any punches to the body so he couldn't tire a man down that way.Ali had poor stamina which wouldn't be a big deal if he had great power and knocked out guys quick (Ali was tired in more fights than Foreman was but some how Foreman got stucked with the poor stamina bull crap).
Give Ali credit for showing heart and for fighting alot of top fighters but don't make this man out to be some type of god because he wasn't none of us are.ALI WAS GOOD BUT NO MAN IS INVINCIBLE.

wow, you are an idiot. what the hell does having parkinson's now have to do with his career 40 years ago?

ali struggled with anyone who wasn't dead slow on their feet? oh, so i suppose patterson was slow on his feet. so was ellis and mathis? quarry did not have limited boxing skills moron, if he did, then what enabled him to go toe to toe with frazier in the first fight, before getting stopped? quarry is a tricky fighter with very good boxing skills, even ali admitted that after the fight. and you are so retarded. you must be joe frazier, floyd patterson, or ernie terrel because all this **** you are saying is nonsensical and idiotic. douglass would beat ali? douglass doesn't have trigger-quick speed like ali. he only beat tyson cause tyson's style played into buster's hands. ali has a faster jab, hit harder, faster feet, head movement, physically stronger, better chin, and well everything than douglass. do you actually think that buster douglass could beat ali? and using the jones fight as an example is stupid, cause ali took jones lightly and tried to take him out quick. if ali fought the way he usually fought, he would have no trouble at all with jones.

tyson would stop ali? sure. tyson barely beat quick tillis, and got beat around the ring by douglass, both of these fighters are movers like ali. ali is way faster than both of these guys so what makes you think tyson would have a chance?

ali had a weak chin? he was down on the canvas for a total of 14seconds in his entire career and it really should be 11, cause wepner didn't really floor him. he got hit alot by frazier, foreman, bonavena, norton, shavers, and lyle, but they all knocked him down a total of one time, and all of these were hard punchers.

ali only started losing after him prime, when most great fighters start losing before that time. ali had the ability to make great fighters look ordinary. watch the liston fights, folley fight, patterson, quarry, frazier the second time, and part of the third, foreman.

ali had poor stamina? so i guess it's easy to dance around the ring for 15rounds, and throw rapid fire combinations huh? ali definetely has better stamina than foreman cause most of foreman's fights when he was young lasted a couple of rounds or so, when ali only had only two first round ko's in his career, so ali fought alot more rounds than foreman. if ali ko'd people in the first round like foreman he would never have got tired in his whole career.

of course ali is not invincible, even in his prime, no one's invincible. but trying to say that bums would crush him is just moronic.

supaduck
01-31-2006, 05:15 PM
Ali was the greatest, and i'd say he was almost invincible in his prime. Too bad he wasn't permanently invincible :(

angelo_dundee
01-31-2006, 06:08 PM
He's achieved immortality. His legend is eternal.

Yaman
01-31-2006, 06:43 PM
tyson would stop ali? sure. tyson barely beat quick tillis, and got beat around the ring by douglass, both of these fighters are movers like ali. ali is way faster than both of these guys so what makes you think tyson would have a chance?

He CLEARY won the fight vs Tillis, even if it was a sd, so what? Tillis was his first real quality opponent and he was unexperienced. I cant believe people judge him on that fight because he didn't KNOCK EM OUT. Boxers also win with points.

Tyson destroyed Tyrell Biggs, the guy who could dance all night. He was nearly as fast as Ali on his feet so what makes you think Ali would have a chance?

Southpaw Stinger
01-31-2006, 07:04 PM
what makes you think Ali would have a chance?

How about, he's a better boxer!

Easy-E
01-31-2006, 07:26 PM
Muhammad Ali is widely regarded as the greatest HW ever. He had it all, speed, chin, heart, movement, tactics-more so then any other big man in History.

At his prime, was the self styled-and acknowledged- greatest invincible?

Who would have the best chance of dethroning the Greatest in his pre lay-off/exile years?

i think that the pre exile ali was the best boxer in history. the only person who would have a shot??
id say liston, foreman or tyson, simply because of their raw power. that being said, ali wins that fight every time imo

Easy-E
01-31-2006, 07:41 PM
He CLEARY won the fight vs Tillis, even if it was a sd, so what? Tillis was his first real quality opponent and he was unexperienced. I cant believe people judge him on that fight because he didn't KNOCK EM OUT. Boxers also win with points.

Tyson destroyed Tyrell Biggs, the guy who could dance all night. He was nearly as fast as Ali on his feet so what makes you think Ali would have a chance?

you are aware you just compared tyrell bigges to muhammad ali, right??? ali was not just fast, but he had good power, great reflexes and would mess with your head. mike would lose that fight before he got in the ring. ali wins that fight 99 times out of 100

doowopernie
01-31-2006, 08:33 PM
This is my first post so bear with me. Ali undoubtedly was one of the top three heavyweights of all time,probably number one,but,if you look at him on a pound-for-pound basis there are a few fighters that I think would beat him. Number one would be the greatest of all time, the real Sugar Ray, Sugar Ray Robinson. He made more of an impact inside the ring and,if you factor in the eras he fought in probably had a comparable impact outside the ring. He was dignity personified.

To me Sugar Ray Robinson will always be "The Greatest".


DooWop Ernie

machotime
01-31-2006, 08:39 PM
This is my first post so bear with me. Ali undoubtedly was one of the top three heavyweights of all time,probably number one,but,if you look at him on a pound-for-pound basis there are a few fighters that I think would beat him. Number one would be the greatest of all time, the real Sugar Ray, Sugar Ray Robinson. He made more of an impact inside the ring and,if you factor in the eras he fought in probably had a comparable impact outside the ring. He was dignity personified.

To me Sugar Ray Robinson will always be "The Greatest".


DooWop Ernie
I agree with you, but the prime Ali was definately "almost invincible", he had all the tools and talent.

Dempsey 1919
01-31-2006, 11:16 PM
He CLEARY won the fight vs Tillis, even if it was a sd, so what? Tillis was his first real quality opponent and he was unexperienced. I cant believe people judge him on that fight because he didn't KNOCK EM OUT. Boxers also win with points.

Tyson destroyed Tyrell Biggs, the guy who could dance all night. He was nearly as fast as Ali on his feet so what makes you think Ali would have a chance?

biggs is not as fast as ali. just dancing is not enough. ali has trigger-fast head movement, many fighters couldn't hit him with a jab even if he just stood still. also ali has a granite chin, a top all-time chin, so ali is superior to biggs in every way.

Heckler
02-01-2006, 02:02 AM
=========i believe no fighter could take out the cleveland williams Ali 3/5 times.==========

** Cleveland Williams was KOed by lots of fighters. Moreover Williams was very damaged goods when Ali fought him. I'm sure you believe in pie in the sky too.

Ali was as close to invincible as any fighter ever. I'd say a peak Tyson exceeds him though, and a peak Dempsey comes close.

**** you always repeat the same stupid ****. Williams was damaged, But HIS JAW was as with any fighter... as good as it ever was. And Ali still performed EXCEEDINGLY well... where did i say williams was at his prime? i merely am pointing out thats Alis best performance in the ring, ever. Take your slanted Ali-hating somewhere else.

Heckler
02-01-2006, 02:07 AM
If anyone thinks tyson would come close to stopping Ali they are derranged. He is the only swarmer i wouldn't give the least bit of chance against Ali. Tyson got frustrated, REGARDLESS OF WHEN HE FOUGHT, prime or not with a boxer that merely used the stick and move. Against Ali with such footspeed, angles, the various different manouveres he would use to confuse Tyson... tyson would be frustrated, tyson would stuff up. Someone said that Ali didn't have a good jaw, you are a ****en moron... a man that was never knocked out after fighting frazier, foreman, shavers, Liston etc... and you come up with the most retarded statement i have ever witnessed on boxing scene.

Heckler
02-01-2006, 02:11 AM
Sure he has some good ko's on his record. But how many of those truly displayed power punching?

Foreman himself said that he didn't get knocked out because of his power. He was knocked down because he was cought with the 2 fastest hooks he ever received and he was out of balance. He also said he should've gotten up from that knock down. Something had to do with his corner.

Did you ever think for a second that Foreman might be a bit slanted on this one. In an interview on 'Ali: through the eyes of the world' he said that he tried to get up, and did, but by then the count was over... that was POWER that knocked him out. The punches leading up to it in the previous rounds. When Ali was sitting on the ropes, Foreman would miss and Ali would SIT on his punches... you clearly see Foremans head being snapped back and sweat pouring off his head. When Ali wanted to punch hard, he did.

Heckler
02-01-2006, 02:17 AM
Invincible? No. The best? Yes.

A man who weighs 210+ pounds and has really quick, accurate hands will punch hard. That's generally the mechanics of it. His power is not the most underrated in history; it's right in the middle where it should be. He had enough power, and enough gas in the tank to finish off his tired and confused opponents. It was there when it needed to be.

This is not why he defeated many of his opponents, pre-layoff, however. Often times his opponents never changed their gameplan to face a heavyweight who fought like a middleweight. Ali was not so fast that people couldn't catch him; it's rediculous to think that. His opponents just failed to prepare themselves properly to conserve energy while trapping Ali's movement.

There are a few fighters who probably could have done this, but Ali was fortunate enough to avoid such eras. The key is to be at the spot he's dancing to before he gets there. A person can always move faster when going forward than another can while moving backwards or side to side. His opponents rarely caught on to this, however, until after he returned to the ring in 1970.

Ali nuthuggers have to think about something for a moment. In 1967, Ali had reached his physical prime. Automatically people scream that he would have continued as such until about 1971 or so, and remained undefeated. First of all, Ali wasn't even accepted as a quality champion until 1966 or 1967, so there weren't fighters truly gunning for a method to stop a dancer. Had Ali remained in the sport, you would have seen a humbled version of Muhammad Ali between 67-71 as more and more fighters found ways to counter his speed. Would they have beaten him? Not necessarily, but it's a more fair and reasonable assumption than one that makes him invincible. During his layoff people began preparing for ways to tackle fast fighters and it showed when he returned to the ring. Ali wasn't so much slower in 1970 that it allowed for him to get caught where he otherwise would have been uncatchable, but he did lose a step. Combine this with the fact that more people figured out ways to close the gap and you get some frustrating moments for Ali.

This is all a testament to his greatness. The entire boxing world had to find ways to be prepared for a swifter, more patient opponent. In the 1980's there weren't many big names, but there were more boxers who were pure athletes. Faster fighters with more longevity. They beat up on each other enough, however, that very few names from that era emerged. All of this changed because of Muhammad Ali.

Invincible? No. The best? Yes.


I agree with essentially everything bar your commenting on Alis speed. He lost ALOT of footspeed, he couldn't keep it up through the rounds and you clearly see this against jerry quarry where he goes flat footed.

Heckler
02-01-2006, 02:23 AM
Sure he has some good ko's on his record. But how many of those truly displayed power punching?

Foreman himself said that he didn't get knocked out because of his power. He was knocked down because he was cought with the 2 fastest hooks he ever received and he was out of balance. He also said he should've gotten up from that knock down. Something had to do with his corner.

Who gives a **** about punching power? is that how meatheaded you are? WINNING is what matters... who gives a **** what Foreman says, any Ali opponent that puts Ali at no 7 is obviously a tad bitter.

Heckler
02-01-2006, 02:28 AM
Im no Ali nuthugger. I believe that he could be beaten. But never 3 times out of 5 in 1966-67. Did he really loose that much between then and 1970? remaining inactive for 3 years of your prime DOES take it out of you, and every boxing sportwriter you will ever find that actually SAW ali live will note that Ali lost alot during this period. Ali had flaws, he couldn't block a jab, he never went to the body.... but this was largely offset by his sheer talent and heart. His speed, timing, comprehension of range, Jaw, stamina... and yes to that moron who said that Ali had no stamina... when he TRAINED for a fight he had good Stamina. We have two extremes here, Ali haters that come out with **** like Tyson would beat Ali, or Ali had no stamina, or Ali had a **** jaw... then we have the other extremists like butterfly whom thinks Joe Louis would be beaten easily by Ali, and Joe Louis had a weak jaw. Stop being slanted, get informed and then comment.

Yaman
02-01-2006, 06:27 AM
you are aware you just compared tyrell bigges to muhammad ali, right??? ali was not just fast, but he had good power, great reflexes and would mess with your head. mike would lose that fight before he got in the ring. ali wins that fight 99 times out of 100

I wasn't comparing Ali to Tyrell Biggs. I was explaining Butterfly that fast feet and movement in the ring wouldn't be the thing that would defeat Tyson.

Yaman
02-01-2006, 06:29 AM
biggs is not as fast as ali. just dancing is not enough. ali has trigger-fast head movement, many fighters couldn't hit him with a jab even if he just stood still. also ali has a granite chin, a top all-time chin, so ali is superior to biggs in every way.


Well, now you see i was right about fast feet with dancing moves in the ring would NOT effect Tyson. Thats what i was explaining.

Ali didn't have any power so no way in ****ing hell would he KO Tyson.

Jabs wouldn't work because Tyson ate jabs against every fighter who used it.

Yaman
02-01-2006, 06:33 AM
Did you ever think for a second that Foreman might be a bit slanted on this one. In an interview on 'Ali: through the eyes of the world' he said that he tried to get up, and did, but by then the count was over... that was POWER that knocked him out. The punches leading up to it in the previous rounds. When Ali was sitting on the ropes, Foreman would miss and Ali would SIT on his punches... you clearly see Foremans head being snapped back and sweat pouring off his head. When Ali wanted to punch hard, he did.

I dont think you know better than the man himself. He was exhausted and out of balance when Ali punched him with those combos. It wasn't power, he was basicely trying to stand on his feet but he fell down because he was out of balance.

If anyone thinks tyson would come close to stopping Ali they are derranged. He is the only swarmer i wouldn't give the least bit of chance against Ali. Tyson got frustrated, REGARDLESS OF WHEN HE FOUGHT, prime or not with a boxer that merely used the stick and move. Against Ali with such footspeed, angles, the various different manouveres he would use to confuse Tyson... tyson would be frustrated, tyson would stuff up. Someone said that Ali didn't have a good jaw, you are a ****en moron... a man that was never knocked out after fighting frazier, foreman, shavers, Liston etc... and you come up with the most retarded statement i have ever witnessed on boxing scene.

Ali in his prime never got tested by a boxer like Tyson or Frazier. Liston wasn't trained and basicely a joke when he fought Ali.

angelo_dundee
02-01-2006, 08:53 AM
i think that the pre exile ali was the best boxer in history. the only person who would have a shot??
id say liston, foreman or tyson, simply because of their raw power. that being said, ali wins that fight every time imo

This is sound understanding of this beautiful sport.

Brassangel
02-01-2006, 11:30 AM
Ali lost some fluidity when he returned to boxing, not necessarily speed. He was a little less coordinated, and he lost a touch of stamina. It wasn't an overwhelming loss, however. Ali was still the swiftest guy around. The trouble he faced was against volume punchers who applied pressure.

Ali said several times that Patterson was the most skilled opponent he ever faced; Floyd was a Cus Volume Puncher, but he didn't apply great pressure. Instead he would circle with his opponents and use counterpunches more often then attack maneuvers. He got in some decent rounds with Muhammad, but Ali won these fights decisively.

Joe Frazier was a Volume Puncher who applied great pressure. He did have a predictable left hand, and he was almost blind in his right eye. This played well into Ali's hands, as a man who jabbed superbly towards the right eye. Even so, Frazier gave Ali lots of trouble and even puffed him up in all three contests. Muhammad Ali said that had he fought Joe Frazier in 1967, he would have been beaten by him quicker. While he was faster when he was younger, he often got ****y and tried to fire back against his (seemingly) weaker opponents. Joe would have annihilated him in this event, and Ali recognizes that. You can't deny what the man said himself.

Now take Mike Tyson. Iron Mike was a volume puncher who hit harder than either Patterson or Frazier, applied pressure better than both, had great vision in both eyes, and had quicker footspeed and hand speed than either of them. Furthermore, Mike Tyson could cut the ring off better than anyone in the history of the sport. For those who use the, "..he always got frustrated against quick moving, tall fighters..." need to spend less time watching the HBO special or listening to that moron, Sugars. Before his prison sentence, he still won convincingly against opponents where he was seemingly frustrated. (NOTE He didn't suffer frustration against Douglas; rather it was a combination of partying, poor training, poor cornermen, poor management, etc.)

Case and point: Tyson would give Ali trouble. He would probably scar him up or even knock him down. Ali kept fighting even if he was out on his feet, so I doubt there would be a KO. Tyson's chin was pretty strong as well, so I doubt that Ali would put him out. If it was a 10-12 round fight, I think that Tyson could take a decision. If it was a 15 rounder, Ali would likely win, as he was just too solid from 13-15 against tired opponents. It is my belief that this would make for an epic fight, or series of fights. In fact, I am currently working on a story for this, which I plan to post here (accepting, in advance, the fact that I will likely get completely flamed by some and praised by others).

Can't we just agree that it would make for a great bout? The styles work well enough here to make for a brutal battle that could be decided in the last rounds. :boxing:

Oh yeah, nobody was ever invincible.

Easy-E
02-01-2006, 11:45 AM
Well, now you see i was right about fast feet with dancing moves in the ring would NOT effect Tyson. Thats what i was explaining.

Ali didn't have any power so no way in ****ing hell would he KO Tyson.

Jabs wouldn't work because Tyson ate jabs against every fighter who used it.

tyson has been ko'd more than any other he champ in history, with the one exception being buster douglass. ali would ko tyson with an accumlation of punches and making tyson miss, thus tiring him out. No one thought Ali had a shot in hell to beat foreman, never mind knock him out. you obviously have not seen a prime ali fight, for he would dismantle and demolish your pot smoking bum buddy

Brassangel
02-01-2006, 12:09 PM
PBF34 obviously didn't read my post, which took a logical approach at the whole Tyson vs. Ali panorama. Fair enough. Also, your KO comment about champions is rather skewed, if not completely false.

Tyson was difficult to jab. Ali was difficult to put down. This makes for a great battle.

angelo_dundee
02-01-2006, 12:38 PM
Ali lost some fluidity when he returned to boxing, not necessarily speed. He was a little less coordinated, and he lost a touch of stamina. It wasn't an overwhelming loss, however. Ali was still the swiftest guy around. The trouble he faced was against volume punchers who applied pressure.

Ali said several times that Patterson was the most skilled opponent he ever faced; Floyd was a Cus Volume Puncher, but he didn't apply great pressure. Instead he would circle with his opponents and use counterpunches more often then attack maneuvers. He got in some decent rounds with Muhammad, but Ali won these fights decisively.

Joe Frazier was a Volume Puncher who applied great pressure. He did have a predictable left hand, and he was almost blind in his right eye. This played well into Ali's hands, as a man who jabbed superbly towards the right eye. Even so, Frazier gave Ali lots of trouble and even puffed him up in all three contests. Muhammad Ali said that had he fought Joe Frazier in 1967, he would have been beaten by him quicker. While he was faster when he was younger, he often got ****y and tried to fire back against his (seemingly) weaker opponents. Joe would have annihilated him in this event, and Ali recognizes that. You can't deny what the man said himself.

Now take Mike Tyson. Iron Mike was a volume puncher who hit harder than either Patterson or Frazier, applied pressure better than both, had great vision in both eyes, and had quicker footspeed and hand speed than either of them. Furthermore, Mike Tyson could cut the ring off better than anyone in the history of the sport. For those who use the, "..he always got frustrated against quick moving, tall fighters..." need to spend less time watching the HBO special or listening to that moron, Sugars. Before his prison sentence, he still won convincingly against opponents where he was seemingly frustrated. (NOTE He didn't suffer frustration against Douglas; rather it was a combination of partying, poor training, poor cornermen, poor management, etc.)

Case and point: Tyson would give Ali trouble. He would probably scar him up or even knock him down. Ali kept fighting even if he was out on his feet, so I doubt there would be a KO. Tyson's chin was pretty strong as well, so I doubt that Ali would put him out. If it was a 10-12 round fight, I think that Tyson could take a decision. If it was a 15 rounder, Ali would likely win, as he was just too solid from 13-15 against tired opponents. It is my belief that this would make for an epic fight, or series of fights. In fact, I am currently working on a story for this, which I plan to post here (accepting, in advance, the fact that I will likely get completely flamed by some and praised by others).

Can't we just agree that it would make for a great bout? The styles work well enough here to make for a brutal battle that could be decided in the last rounds. :boxing:

Oh yeah, nobody was ever invincible.


Yes a great fight, but I cant forsee Mikey winning any sort of decision. Now Iron Mike has a punchers chance against any man in History-including Ali- but talk of him defeating the greatest over distance is poor.

He'd have to tag Ali and then finish him off instantly. Short of that, Ali wins every scenario.

Dempsey 1919
02-01-2006, 01:42 PM
tyson has a chance, but most likely ali would stay away from most of tyson's shots.

Yaman
02-01-2006, 01:45 PM
tyson has been ko'd more than any other he champ in history, with the one exception being buster douglass. ali would ko tyson with an accumlation of punches and making tyson miss, thus tiring him out. No one thought Ali had a shot in hell to beat foreman, never mind knock him out. you obviously have not seen a prime ali fight, for he would dismantle and demolish your pot smoking bum buddy

You're talking about Tyson from the 90s/2000s :rolleyes:

I can start talking about Mike knocking an Ali from 81 out.

Easy-E
02-01-2006, 02:15 PM
You're talking about Tyson from the 90s/2000s :rolleyes:

I can start talking about Mike knocking an Ali from 81 out.

yes, i am talking about a 15 year period where mike lost to every decent competitor he faced. his "prime" was about a year and a half, where he proved how great he really was by winning a unanamious decision against james "bonecrusher" smith. nice job, mike!

Easy-E
02-01-2006, 02:17 PM
its also important to note that mike had serious stamina probelms.

Yaman
02-01-2006, 02:32 PM
Then ''the greatest'' had a ****ty prime of a few years aswell lol! :D

And for your information, he beat 2 hall of famers and ALL three champions of his time. owned.

Dempsey 1919
02-01-2006, 02:40 PM
Then ''the greatest'' had a ****ty prime of a few years aswell lol! :D

And for your information, he beat 2 hall of famers and ALL three champions of his time. owned.

wow, 2 hofers! ali beat like 15.

RockyMarcianofan00
02-01-2006, 03:50 PM
ok i just want to know one thing, the thread says Prime Muhammad Ali, which Ali was prime cause nobody ever can give me a straight answer

some ppl say it was late 60's some say early 70's (after layoff) so i'm just wondering
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RockyMarcianofan00
02-01-2006, 03:51 PM
its also important to note that mike had serious stamina probelms.
idk in his prime Tyson could go more rounds then i had orginally though i mean against bruno he went into 6 rounds (i beleive) and i didn't think he'd make it past 4 rounds without getting tired
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Yaman
02-01-2006, 04:05 PM
wow, 2 hofers! ali beat like 15.

In his prime? ahahahahaha. You have to read posts more carefully.

Yogi
02-01-2006, 04:52 PM
And for your information, he beat 2 hall of famers and ALL three champions of his time. owned.

LOL!

One post you're telling someone not to hold things against Tyson when he was past his prime, yet right away you're giving credit to Tyson for beating a couple of HOF'ers who themselves were past their prime...

LOL!

If that's not hypocrisy at it's best, then Bruenor is in fact a bearded gnome!

Dempsey 1919
02-01-2006, 05:12 PM
ok i just want to know one thing, the thread says Prime Muhammad Ali, which Ali was prime cause nobody ever can give me a straight answer

some ppl say it was late 60's some say early 70's (after layoff) so i'm just wondering

his real prime actually started with the folley fight in 1967, but he was stripped, so he was robbed of his real, actual prime.

Heckler
02-01-2006, 05:38 PM
I believe rocky would give Ali trouble, and frazier did give him trouble. But never tyson. You cannot deny that tysons mentality was hopeless for the ring. Without a doubt Ali would infuriate tyson before stepping into the ring, and frustrate him immensely whilst in the ring. Ali is the one fighter who could really make tyson look bad, his unorthodox style, moving laterally and launching jabs from odd angles, leading with a right cross from the periphery... the sheer speed and quantity of punches thrown in these flurries from the outside would overwhelm Tyson. Ali was a range fighter, no-1 was as good at judging, and dictating the range as Ali... and i think this would drive tyson nuts. Tyson would eventually get Ali on the ropes and Ali would tie him up and continue. Tyson, like most fighters have never seen or experienced a fighter as 'odd' as Ali, and Tyson would not have the capacity to adapt to him. Ali Ko 10.

Heckler
02-01-2006, 05:43 PM
Heres a article excerpt from a sportswriter:

The one great swarming heavyweight that I would give little chance to beat Ali had they both met in their primes is Mike Tyson. Ali had the perfect ring psychology to defeat Tyson. In Muhammad Ali: His Life and Times by Thomas Hauser, all five people associated with Tyson picked Ali in a dream fight over Tyson. That list included Tyson trainers Kevin Rooney and Teddy Atlas, former manager Bill Cayton, and former D’Amato champions Floyd Patterson and Jose Torres. In the Sept 1988 Ring when Tyson was undefeated and at the peak of his popularity, I had a letter published, "Tyson Versus Heroes of the Past" where I noted Ali's "amazing speed and footwork would easily frustrate Tyson." When Tyson was finally defeated for the first time it was the stick and move tactics of Buster Douglas that defeated him in Ali like fashion.

Tyson was at his peak at a young age while Ali hit his peak as he matured physically. What if Ali and Tyson both met at age 20? The story here might be different. Tyson peaked early, had the explosive, speed, power, head movement and good defense to get inside on the fighter then known as Cassius Clay. The young Ali had not filled out yet and his ability to take a punch was not quite what it would be later. The left hook of Sonny Banks and also the left hook of Henry Cooper dropped Clay. Tyson was far and away superior over those men in speed, power, punching accuracy and combination punching. Against a young prime Tyson, Clay/Ali is going to get hit with consecutive power shots after being rocked. The 20 year old Tyson knocks out the 20 year old Clay who had not yet reached his prime years.

Cus thinks Ali would take out tyson, and i think its safe to say he would know best.

Dempsey 1919
02-01-2006, 05:46 PM
Heres a article excerpt from a sportswriter:

The one great swarming heavyweight that I would give little chance to beat Ali had they both met in their primes is Mike Tyson. Ali had the perfect ring psychology to defeat Tyson. In Muhammad Ali: His Life and Times by Thomas Hauser, all five people associated with Tyson picked Ali in a dream fight over Tyson. That list included Tyson trainers Kevin Rooney and Teddy Atlas, former manager Bill Cayton, and former D’Amato champions Floyd Patterson and Jose Torres. In the Sept 1988 Ring when Tyson was undefeated and at the peak of his popularity, I had a letter published, "Tyson Versus Heroes of the Past" where I noted Ali's "amazing speed and footwork would easily frustrate Tyson." When Tyson was finally defeated for the first time it was the stick and move tactics of Buster Douglas that defeated him in Ali like fashion.

Tyson was at his peak at a young age while Ali hit his peak as he matured physically. What if Ali and Tyson both met at age 20? The story here might be different. Tyson peaked early, had the explosive, speed, power, head movement and good defense to get inside on the fighter then known as Cassius Clay. The young Ali had not filled out yet and his ability to take a punch was not quite what it would be later. The left hook of Sonny Banks and also the left hook of Henry Cooper dropped Clay. Tyson was far and away superior over those men in speed, power, punching accuracy and combination punching. Against a young prime Tyson, Clay/Ali is going to get hit with consecutive power shots after being rocked. The 20 year old Tyson knocks out the 20 year old Clay who had not yet reached his prime years.

Cus thinks Ali would take out tyson, and i think its safe to say he would know best.

nice article.

Southpaw Stinger
02-01-2006, 07:00 PM
Indeed a brilliant article. Cus also said Foreman would destroy Tyson as well.

RockyMarcianofan00
02-01-2006, 07:03 PM
in 1967 i think if somebody had a hard hit (ie:Marciano,frazier,frazier) tagged him then ali's feet may go but i'm not talking one hard tag to the body i'm talking get him in the corner and give him a barage then you'd get him, in my opinion to beat ali you have to get rid of his feet cause if you don't he'll dance around you all nite, but once you do that get ready to hit him fast cause he'll fight his way out of the corner
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Heckler
02-01-2006, 08:17 PM
in 1967 i think if somebody had a hard hit (ie:Marciano,frazier,frazier) tagged him then ali's feet may go but i'm not talking one hard tag to the body i'm talking get him in the corner and give him a barage then you'd get him, in my opinion to beat ali you have to get rid of his feet cause if you don't he'll dance around you all nite, but once you do that get ready to hit him fast cause he'll fight his way out of the corner

I doubt it. It would take alot more then one barrage. Ali could absorb alot of punishment, and in 67 he was at his physical peak. Irrespective of what people say, Angelo has always stated that at that point he was as strong, and could absorb punsihment. People bring up points like HENRY COOPER, that was a young naieve cassius clay... what we should be looking at is 66-67 which was the start of his prime. His prime would of continued into the early 70's. But because of his inactivity he lost the chance to take advantage of it. He may of come back in 1970 when he SHOULD of been in his prime, but because of his idle career for 3 years he wasn't... It was SIGNIFICANT, he could not keep up dancing for more then a couple of rounds, nor was his movement as fluid. Hence we see the flat-footed Ali against quarry and more so bonavena.

RockyMarcianofan00
02-01-2006, 08:30 PM
yea its too bad that he got layed off because of that layoff being at his prime its hard for ppl like me to accept what ppl like you say about his prime and its hard for ppl like you to understand were i'm coming from its like there just wasn't enough of fights in his prime to make a decent argument of either side if you get where i'm coming from
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Brassangel
02-01-2006, 10:33 PM
So this article is stating that Tyson, after 1988 would lose to prime Ali. That's most likely accurate. Tyson should have had a prime that went from 85-95, but we all know how that turned out. Secondly, Douglas didn't beat Mike with stick-and-move alone, he also beat Mike because Mike stood there like a lump. Mike threw that fight away by not preparing, and Douglas looked about as good as Ali on the same night. Even so, this article you've posted is an intelligent one.

My initial assumptions still remain intact and accurate: Tyson could win fight one (when they're both young), and Ali would take 2 and 3. Regardless of the critics, the analysts, the articles, our opinions, etc., it's the fight (or series of fights) that everybody would have gotten excited about. Chances are, few would have been disappointed.

Brassangel
02-01-2006, 10:36 PM
More on the topic...


"Prime" Ali is usually a matter of opinion. His physical prime was from 1966-1967. His crowning achievement(s) came from 1974-1976, when he defeated George Foreman and avenged his initial loss to Joe Frazier. Dundee says he thought Ali in 1974 was a better fighter, but he had a more physical gift in the late 1960's. Draw your own conclusions.

Heckler
02-01-2006, 10:46 PM
Tyson wasn't a fighter that could adapt, and he wouldn't be able to adapt to someone with such an unorthodox style, regardless of any time he fought him.

Dempsey 1919
02-01-2006, 11:28 PM
More on the topic...


"Prime" Ali is usually a matter of opinion. His physical prime was from 1966-1967. His crowning achievement(s) came from 1974-1976, when he defeated George Foreman and avenged his initial loss to Joe Frazier. Dundee says he thought Ali in 1974 was a better fighter, but he had a more physical gift in the late 1960's. Draw your own conclusions.

not really, cause if 1967 ali fought during the 70s, he wouldn't have lost to frazier and norton.

Dirt E Gomez
02-02-2006, 12:42 AM
A Frazier with both eyes at the same age I think can beat an Ali most days and a Foreman in a fight in a place other than 100 degree weather can beat Ali. A Prime Tyson has a shot against any heavyweight in history simply because of his explosiveness and whatnot. I love Ali, but the more I involve myself in the understanding of the sport the more I see to take away from him and what I've learned in the past.

RedRum
02-02-2006, 01:01 AM
Ali was a great showman, a great fighter, BUT he wasn't the best heavyweight.

angelo_dundee
02-02-2006, 06:24 AM
So who is?

*sheesh*

Brassangel
02-02-2006, 10:13 AM
Frazier would have been a great opponent for Ali, no matter when they would have locked up. If you go back to 1967, his vision would have been healthier, making it much more difficult for Ali to tag him. It would have been a fast moving, action-packed fight for 15 rounds. Like a Rocky movie, only with good defensive tactics. Likewise, I think that Norton would have given Ali trouble at any time, given the poor style matchup. Chances are, Ali would have won 2 (cleanly) instead of having the refs gift him two matches.

Make no mistakes. When Tyson was 20, and Ali/Clay was 20, Tyson would have demolished him. That was why he had more potential than any heavyweight in history; he peaked at such a young age and could have reigned for 10 years. When Tyson turned 23, however, when he still should have been in his prime, he started to look bored and unprepared. While Ali, on the other hand, at 23, had some of his best moments and was as fluid as any fighter in history. At this age and every age after, Ali wins. It's a shame that both suffered layoffs, and had to encounter at least some form of BS involving Don King. What makes Ali better was the fact that he made something great for himself when he returned.

There was always a chance of a bad style matchup for Ali, physical prime or not. Since his physical prime lasted for such a short span we never got to witness such a case. All of these factors make it very difficult to truthfully gauge how great his prime coulda, woulda, shoulda been.

Heckler
02-02-2006, 04:28 PM
Above, you are correct. Norton and Frazier would always trouble Ali to an extent, difference is in his prime he had the physical gifts that allowed him to get away with fundemental flaws.