Based on what I've heard about Unforgivable Blackness from Ken Burns and others, it appears that Jack Johnson will be portrayed as an arrogant yet ultimately noble man. I have some issues with this.

There is no doubt that Johnson was oppressed because of his race, and was betrayed by his government and indicted on phony charges because the general public did not want a black heavyweight champion, especially one that was so arrogant. This, however, does not make him a good person. Jack Johnson was notorious for horrendously beating his girlfriends. I don't maen he lost his temper once and did something he later regretted...I mean he brutally beat these girls over and over and never learned his lesson. This is not something that should be celebrated.

Interestingly enough, the only reason the feds could nail Johnon on the Mann act was because one of his old girlfriends that he beat around was so ticked off that she said whatever the government wanted to hear.

He wasn't even an advocate for African-American rights. Johnson had no interest in advancing the interests of African-Americans...he was only interested in himself. He refused to fight any other black challengers after he won the title because he knew that a white audience would not pay to see to black men fight for the title. In his later years he was always openly critical of other black boxing superstars, most notably Joe Louis. He always predicted that Louis would lose his fights and always made a point of criticizing his skills.

Was Johnson a great fighter? Yes. Was he railroaded by his own government? Absolutely. But was he a man worth honouring? No way, at least not as much as Burns appears to be doing.

good points, its funny how everyone is jumping on his bandwagon, the guy fought a 100 years ago, how does anyone alive now know what he was really like, from what ive read he is a self serving ahole, now they want to honor him

Yes Jack Johnson deseves to be celabrated. We cant even comprehend the stuff he had to overcome and still he made it to the top, only to have an entire section of the country try there hardest to bring him down when he made.

Your biggest problem with him seems to be that he hit his women. Well I hate to break it to you, but back then in 1913 hitting your woman was not considered out of line. Thats the honest truth it was a different era.

You also bring up that Johnson was not "an advocate for African-American rights". Again I hate to break it to you, but there were no such things at the time when Johnson was in his hey day. Even the thought of African-Americans having equal rights didn't come along till decades later.


You try and critasize him for only fighting white guys, but what you fail to realize is that black men also wanted him to fight and beat up white men. They lived through him. Also check Joe Louis record its 95% white guys for this same reason.

Johnson deserves every honor that comes his way.

Your biggest problem with him seems to be that he hit his women. Well I hate to break it to you, but back then in 1913 hitting your woman was not considered out of line. Thats the honest truth it was a different era.

Everyone on this forum condemns Jack Dempsey (rightfully, by the way) for being racist, even though it was a "different era", as you put it, and pretty much every white guy was racist. Doesn't make it right. Plus I make pains to mention that Johnson brutally beat his women. He didn't just slap them now and then, as I'm sure a lot of husbands did at the time, as you say.


You also bring up that Johnson was not "an advocate for African-American rights". Again I hate to break it to you, but there were no such things at the time when Johnson was in his hey day. Even the thought of African-Americans having equal rights didn't come along till decades later.

You are way way wrong here. Read your damn history, for god's sakes. Read about W.E.B. DuBois and Booker T. Washington. These guys were advocating for black rights at the SAME time that Johnson was fighting. There were guys who were doing so even earlier. The late 19th century and early 20th century were full of black activists.


You try and critasize him for only fighting white guys, but what you fail to realize is that black men also wanted him to fight and beat up white men. They lived through him. Also check Joe Louis record its 95% white guys for this same reason.

This just makes Johnson an even bigger jerk for thinking only about himself when so many other people were looking up to him. And Joe Louis fought only white guys because the same racial problems existed in his time. Only after WW2 did the public start accepting other black challengers.

Everyone on this forum condemns Jack Dempsey (rightfully, by the way) for being racist, even though it was a "different era", as you put it, and pretty much every white guy was racist. Doesn't make it right. Plus I make pains to mention that Johnson brutally beat his women. He didn't just slap them now and then, as I'm sure a lot of husbands did at the time, as you say.


You are way way wrong here. Read your damn history, for god's sakes. Read about W.E.B. DuBois and Booker T. Washington. These guys were advocating for black rights at the SAME time that Johnson was fighting. There were guys who were doing so even earlier. The late 19th century and early 20th century were full of black activists.


This just makes Johnson an even bigger jerk for thinking only about himself when so many other people were looking up to him. And Joe Louis fought only white guys because the same racial problems existed in his time. Only after WW2 did the public start accepting other black challengers.


If someone wants to honor Jack Dempsey I have no problem with that. The part about Dempsey being a racist comes in when people bring up him refusing to fight worthy black challengers.

I said that wrong. It was not the "idea" of course the idea of equal rights have been there since the very begining of time. I was talking more about a real movement to get equal rights that did not come along till decades later. You certianly can not blame him for not being politically active during this time even though in his own way he was by what he did in the ring.

What your not getting is that blacks wanted him to fight and beat up whites more than any other group. This was a way he could do his part.

Interesting thread.

I dunno, I am gonna watch the doco. I didn't know Johnson beat his girlfriends.

Is that on tonight?

Is that on tonight?


Yes its a 4 hour series on PBS. Its gonna be broken up into 2 parts the first part will be shown tonight the second tommarow.

Drinking and beating your wives were very common occurances in those days (especially if you were a boxer; exposed to drinking, prostitutes, gambling, bad childhood, taken advantage by white promoters) so he shouldnt be considered evil due to those certain actions.
As for the whole him being critical of Joe Louis, I think that was due to the fact that Joe Louis sought the white man's approval. He wouldnt gamble, or be photographed with women or a drink in his hand, he was the opposite of what Jack Johnson was. Jack didnt care about how he was viewed throught the eyes of the white man. He wasn't trying to please them he was trying to be who he wanted to be, and I think that is why he is celebrated because he showed millions of black people that they don't have to conform to the white man's world...they can be whoever they want.
I also believe that Jack Johnson wasn't trying to be a hero on purpose...he was just simply trying to make the most outta life, and on the way affected an entire nation and secured his spot in history the first black heavyweight champion, and one of the greatest boxers ever for his time.

Drinking and beating your wives were very common occurances in those days (especially if you were a boxer; exposed to drinking, prostitutes, gambling, bad childhood, taken advantage by white promoters) so he shouldnt be considered evil due to those certain actions.
As for the whole him being critical of Joe Louis, I think that was due to the fact that Joe Louis sought the white man's approval. He wouldnt gamble, or be photographed with women or a drink in his hand, he was the opposite of what Jack Johnson was. Jack didnt care about how he was viewed throught the eyes of the white man. He wasn't trying to please them he was trying to be who he wanted to be, and I think that is why he is celebrated because he showed millions of black people that they don't have to conform to the white man's world...they can be whoever they want.
I also believe that Jack Johnson wasn't trying to be a hero on purpose...he was just simply trying to make the most outta life, and on the way affected an entire nation and secured his spot in history the first black heavyweight champion, and one of the greatest boxers ever for his time.

Exactly. You hit the nail right on the head about Joe Louis. People also forget Ali used to call Joe Louis an Uncle Tom whenever he was aksed about him for the same reasons.

Drinking and beating your wives were very common occurances in those days (especially if you were a boxer; exposed to drinking, prostitutes, gambling, bad childhood, taken advantage by white promoters) so he shouldnt be considered evil due to those certain actions.
As for the whole him being critical of Joe Louis, I think that was due to the fact that Joe Louis sought the white man's approval. He wouldnt gamble, or be photographed with women or a drink in his hand, he was the opposite of what Jack Johnson was. Jack didnt care about how he was viewed throught the eyes of the white man. He wasn't trying to please them he was trying to be who he wanted to be, and I think that is why he is celebrated because he showed millions of black people that they don't have to conform to the white man's world...they can be whoever they want.
I also believe that Jack Johnson wasn't trying to be a hero on purpose...he was just simply trying to make the most outta life, and on the way affected an entire nation and secured his spot in history the first black heavyweight champion, and one of the greatest boxers ever for his time.


jack johnson didnt bow down to white ppl..and im sure u hate that..white ppl know call him arrogant

jack johnson didnt bow down to white ppl..and im sure u hate that..white ppl know call him arrogant
Why would I hate the fact that he didn't bow down to white people?

Jack Johnson fought a lot of black fighters when he was up and coming, but he was getting paid a lot of money just because whites at that time wanted to see him lose. I don't blame him for capitalizing on the media and the public's desire to see him lose and bring the title back to the white man. He played the villian perfectly and was a masterful boxer.
I don't think he should be honored, but I would whole-heartedly watch anything about him. He was a great champion

Drinking and beating your wives were very common occurances in those days (especially if you were a boxer; exposed to drinking, prostitutes, gambling, bad childhood, taken advantage by white promoters) so he shouldnt be considered evil due to those certain actions.
As for the whole him being critical of Joe Louis, I think that was due to the fact that Joe Louis sought the white man's approval. He wouldnt gamble, or be photographed with women or a drink in his hand, he was the opposite of what Jack Johnson was. Jack didnt care about how he was viewed throught the eyes of the white man. He wasn't trying to please them he was trying to be who he wanted to be, and I think that is why he is celebrated because he showed millions of black people that they don't have to conform to the white man's world...they can be whoever they want.
I also believe that Jack Johnson wasn't trying to be a hero on purpose...he was just simply trying to make the most outta life, and on the way affected an entire nation and secured his spot in history the first black heavyweight champion, and one of the greatest boxers ever for his time.


johnson was uneducated, and he most likely had a hard life, most guys that come out of backgrounds like that just focus on survival of the fittest - looking out for number one - THEMSELVES. i don't think johnson ever thought of himself as a hero, in fact i think he had low self esteem from the ways he lived and referred to himself. he's basically a street guy who came out of poverty and had to do whatever he could to survive, and times were a lot tougher back then. we can't blame johnson for being a bastard, if i was in his situation i can't see how i'd be any different. we can't judge johnson by the white middle class standards of today, he to be an animal to survive in his times

This has been the most interesting thread i have ever read.

I think that what Johnson did is WAAAY more impressive than what Jackie Robinson did. He was beating white dudes the fuk UP!
You KNOW that every fight there were people there who wanted to kill him!

I understand what a lot of you guys (jose, Johnny Rocket and beeatch) are trying to say. I know that to a lot of people Johnson represented freedom in the most oppresive of conditions. It was Jim Crow America and African Americans were being ostracized, humiliated and even lynched without any consequences for the people doing these evil deeds. The fact that he won the most coveted title in sports decades before true integration was even an idea is incredible. The fact that he did this while making a point to embarass his white oppressors so intelligently (because he was an intelligent man) is also rather incredible. He worked hard and rose to a level unthinkable for African Americans at the time and did so without compromising himself in any way.

The problem I have is that many people, possibly including Burns, cannot seem to separate the myth of the man from the true facts. Yes, he accomplished all these great things, but he did not do so with the noble intentions normally associated with him. Not that that's a big deal: as you have all pointed out, it would be difficult to expect much more from him coming out of such harsh conditions. But that doesn't mean we should ignore the negative aspects of his character: the ego, the selfishness, the violence.

Look at it this way: would you want your kids looking up to someone when they were not getting the whole story about them? Isn't it better to explain to your kids that someone can do great things and still be a flawed person? If it is partly because of circumstances that Jack Johnson was a flawed individual, isn't it better to show them how racism and oppression can turn someone bad?

I worry that people are getting the wrong impression about Johnson. He is one of the most fascinating and complex people ever to come out of professional sports, and it does nobody any good to try to simplify his story.

Exactly. You hit the nail right on the head about Joe Louis. People also forget Ali used to call Joe Louis an Uncle Tom whenever he was aksed about him for the same reasons.

Yes, but Ali was friends with Louis when Louis was older. Hell, Ali called everyone an Uncle Tom at some point or another. He said that about Louis when he was young and his views were more radicalized then they were later on.

People are unfair to Louis by calling him this. It was his manager (who was black) who made sure that Louis was never pcitured with a drink in his hand, with a white woman, etc. He was the one who told him what to say and how to act in front of white reporters. The reasons he did this is because he knew taht because of Jack Johnson the public had no appetite for another arrogant black champion. He knew that in order for Louis to be accepted and get the fights he needed to win and hold onto the heavyweight championship there was no way he could remind people at all of Jack.

Basically Louis and his manager acted this way for money and fame. If you want to call them Uncle Toms, fine. But remember this: Louis accomplised more for African Americans than all but a handfull of individuals. Because he was so beloved by white fans he made life easier for other African Americans. There was still a LONG way to go, of course, but partly because of Louis the first steps were taken.

Sometimes you can be more of a man by quietly ignoring the ignorance of others than by confronting them with violence, especially if your scarifice will help others. At least Louis was naturally a laid back individual, as opposed to Jackie Robinson, who was a bit of a hothead and had to learn to control his temper while white fans taunted him. Interestingly, Louis helped "coach" Robinson to act this way while they served together in World War 2.

If you're going to get on Johnson, why not Dempsey or one of these other guys as well. It was easy to see Johnson was no choir boy, and he wasn't expected to be either.

If you're going to get on Johnson, why not Dempsey or one of these other guys as well. It was easy to see Johnson was no choir boy, and he wasn't expected to be either.

I have no problem badmouthing Dempsey. I think he's an underrated fighter these days but he was also a bit of a thug in his youth. Both him and Johnson used to ride the rails to get to fights and hang out in hobo camps. That's a hard life (hobos ain't the jolly old guys with bags on sticks like you see in cartoons).

There are all kinds of rumours that Dempsey prostituted out his girlfriends and they've never entirely been disproved. He was also racist, of course, though not to the degree that some of the other bastards were at that time (racist is still racist, of course).

I just don't like it when people make Johnson out like some angel. He was screwed by the government but that doesn't excuse some of his behaviour.

You seem like a guy who just has a dislike for him and will try and discredit everything he does just because of personal feelings.

Nobody is making him out to be a saint. He is however one of the single most important figures in the history of American sports and his story is amazing.

Listen if you want you can pretty much tear down any athlete from Babe Ruth to Micheal Jordan.

A hero doesn't have to be a good person.

You seem like a guy who just has a dislike for him and will try and discredit everything he does just because of personal feelings.

Nobody is making him out to be a saint. He is however one of the single most important figures in the history of American sports and his story is amazing.

Listen if you want you can pretty much tear down any athlete from Babe Ruth to Micheal Jordan.

How am I discrediting him by saying what is true? I didn't start this thread to talk about how amazing his story was...there are plenty of other people doing that. I've been reading about Jack Johnson for a long time now, and I wouldn't be doing that if I disliked the man.

Sounds like you have something against Joe Louis and will do anything to discredit him. Not that he accomplished much...he only defended his title 25 times, became an American hero and broke the colour barrier in boxing for good. Oh, but I forgot, he's an "Uncle Tom" because he didn't slap his women around in public. Excuse me.

A hero doesn't have to be a good person.

But Burns is trying to make him out to be a good person, as least as far as I can tell (haven't seen the whole doc yet, of course). My issue is that he's covering up Johnson's bad side when it would be better to show him for who he is. os people can judge whether or not they consider him a "hero", or whatever.

A hero doesn't have to be a good person.
My boxing hero is Aaron Pryor, a coke addicted cheater. I have no out of the ring hero.

How am I discrediting him by saying what is true? I didn't start this thread to talk about how amazing his story was...there are plenty of other people doing that. I've been reading about Jack Johnson for a long time now, and I wouldn't be doing that if I disliked the man.

Sounds like you have something against Joe Louis and will do anything to discredit him. Not that he accomplished much...he only defended his title 25 times, became an American hero and broke the colour barrier in boxing for good. Oh, but I forgot, he's an "Uncle Tom" because he didn't slap his women around in public. Excuse me.


See now your just getting stupid.

Did I ever call Joe Louis an Uncle Tom? Oh thats right no I didn't.

Oh wow a documentary that only shows one side...im sooo shocked. Well. I mean my god that never happens.

See now your just getting stupid.

Did I ever call Joe Louis an Uncle Tom? Oh thats right no I didn't.

Oh wow a documentary that only shows one side...im sooo shocked. Well. I mean my god that never happens.

You said this earlier: "Exactly. You hit the nail right on the head about Joe Louis. People also forget Ali used to call Joe Louis an Uncle Tom whenever he was aksed about him for the same reasons."

So it's not exactly crazy for me to think that you agree with him.

You said this earlier: "Exactly. You hit the nail right on the head about Joe Louis. People also forget Ali used to call Joe Louis an Uncle Tom whenever he was aksed about him for the same reasons."

So it's not exactly crazy for me to think that you agree with him.


His post was about WHY Joe Louis was critasized by other black fighters.

You brought up Johnson like he was the only black fighter who was critical of Joe Louis.

His post was about WHY Joe Louis was critasized by other black fighters.

You brought up Johnson like he was the only black fighter who was critical of Joe Louis.

Okay, fair enough. I disagree though that Johnson was critical of Louis because he thought he was playing up to white people. If Johnson didn't care about civil rights for African Americans why would he care if Louis was doing this? Fact is Johnson liked the spotlight for himself and himself only.

I know that a lot of people will like Johnson no matter what he might have done in his personal life. I wasn't trying to start trouble with this thread. You might be surprised to hear that I'm a big fan of his as well. It's just that people shouldn't say that he did or believed certain things when it's not true.

I think that what Johnson did is WAAAY more impressive than what Jackie Robinson did. He was beating white dudes the fuk UP!
I saw the documentary and the above quote by Boxerdog is better than anything those sociologists, historians, or boxing experts said in the documentary.

That quote is dead on right -- Johnson was beating white dudes the fuk up in front of thousands and this was just thirty, forty years after slavery! Man, the pressure of being Johnson and the hate the public must have felt towards him is impossible to understand. Jackie Robinson hit some ground balls through the infield. Big deal. At a time when black dudes were expected to step and fetch it, Jack Johnson beat white dudes up. That's heavy stuff to deal with for all concerned.

The fact that Johnson lived as long as he did is a remarkable achievement in itself. Beating up white dudes is one thing, but OPENLY dating white women in the early 1900s? Hell there are places in the US today that where a black man can find himself in serious trouble if he covorted with white women.

I watched the first part of the doc, and I think Burns was trying to capture the greatness of Johnson, not trying to make him look like a saint. Regardless of his flaws, his accomplishments were GREAT, considering the time and circumstances he delt with.

The story needed to be told and I'm glad Burns told it.

i think he showed tremendous resolve, while people were spouting racial slurs at him constantly all he did was smile, he never broke that smile, in the film footage he looked huge too, anybody else notice that?

in the film footage he looked huge too, anybody else notice that?
Wait a minute, yeah Johnson was a big guy, but not huge. He looked huge because in the footage he is shown fighting Stanley Ketchel (a middleweight!) and Tommy Burns (at only 5'7" the smallest heavyweight champion in history). Put me in films against Ketchell and Burns and I'll look huge, too. Johnson certainly did not look huge against that big bear of a guy Jim Jeffries. See if Johnson looks huge tonight when they show him fighting against the Giant Jess Willard.

Johnson was 6'2 and weighed about 215 lbs. He beat a bunch of guys that were smaller than he was, and Jeffries. Now, people say that taking off weight takes strength, and stamina from a fighter, Jeffries had to lose what, 90 lbs., and he was an older guy that had been retired for some time, and still fought/wrestled with the much better conditioned and more active Johnson for 15 rounds, outside, in the heat. I know that Jeffries shouldn't have let them talk him into fighting Johnson, but Johnson beat a guy that had to lose 90 lbs., and was way the **** past it, and then got stopped by Willard, and tried to say that he took a dive. He was a good fighter for the time period, fought with that "Ruiz" style, and made it work against 5'7 and 5'9 fighters that sometimes gave up 40 lbs. to fight him. He was good, not great, IMO

I saw the documentary and the above quote by Boxerdog is better than anything those sociologists, historians, or boxing experts said in the documentary.

That quote is dead on right -- Johnson was beating white dudes the fuk up in front of thousands and this was just thirty, forty years after slavery! Man, the pressure of being Johnson and the hate the public must have felt towards him is impossible to understand. Jackie Robinson hit some ground balls through the infield. Big deal. At a time when black dudes were expected to step and fetch it, Jack Johnson beat white dudes up. That's heavy stuff to deal with for all concerned.
I have said it before this new documentary. It really is amazing that he wasn't killed when you add in the way people at the time felt about interacial relationships.
The S.O.B. had balls, you gotta give him credit for that!

when you judge a fighter should we not just judge him on his work in the ring? We are all flawed. The man was a hero in my opinion for his work inside the ring and his bravery for standing up and succeeding inspite of the racial injustices of the time. It teaches a lesson. If he can make it back during that time we all can make it despite any obstacles that are set against us.

I saw the documentary and the above quote by Boxerdog is better than anything those sociologists, historians, or boxing experts said in the documentary.

That quote is dead on right -- Johnson was beating white dudes the fuk up in front of thousands and this was just thirty, forty years after slavery! Man, the pressure of being Johnson and the hate the public must have felt towards him is impossible to understand. Jackie Robinson hit some ground balls through the infield. Big deal. At a time when black dudes were expected to step and fetch it, Jack Johnson beat white dudes up. That's heavy stuff to deal with for all concerned.


jack johnson's parents had been slaves when they were chlidren. he was a very intelligent man, and i think he took it on himself to punish the white man for slavery and racism. i know the guy wasn't perfect, but no one is, i love jack johnson because in a time when everyone who wasn't white was supposd to be mentally and physically inferior, a black man was the greatest athlete in the world. that's giving white racists a huge middle finger

Yes Jack Johnson deseves to be celabrated. We cant even comprehend the stuff he had to overcome and still he made it to the top, only to have an entire section of the country try there hardest to bring him down when he made.

Your biggest problem with him seems to be that he hit his women. Well I hate to break it to you, but back then in 1913 hitting your woman was not considered out of line. Thats the honest truth it was a different era.

You also bring up that Johnson was not "an advocate for African-American rights". Again I hate to break it to you, but there were no such things at the time when Johnson was in his hey day. Even the thought of African-Americans having equal rights didn't come along till decades later.


You try and critasize him for only fighting white guys, but what you fail to realize is that black men also wanted him to fight and beat up white men. They lived through him. Also check Joe Louis record its 95% white guys for this same reason.

Johnson deserves every honor that comes his way.

Im with you man, he deserves it.

jack johnson went through hell and back just because he wasn't part of the majority...so I excuse him for being a bastard once in a while.

good points, its funny how everyone is jumping on his bandwagon, the guy fought a 100 years ago, how does anyone alive now know what he was really like, from what ive read he is a self serving ahole, now they want to honor him

Hypocrite. Why is it alright for you to criticize Jack Johnson, but it isn't alright for someone to support him when NO ONE alive knows what he was really like.


People, this is boxing. We admire boxers, not for their personal lives, but more for their ring accomplishments and legacy. Boxers aren't known to be very great role-models. WAKE UP CALL. Don't try to mask yuor racism with faux-credibility.

Jack Johnson lived in a very different time from the 50's and 60's, much less 2005. I'm white, but I can honestly say that if I was black during those times, I probably would not be the most upbeat and community-driven citizen. It's ridiculous how people living in our politically-correct and more equalized society can actually use our culture and values to analyze and compare someone from the early 20th century.

Jack Johnson deserves all the credit in the world. He never claimed to be an activist for African American right or for anything for that matter. He was just his own man! He did whatever he wanted, dated whoever and went anywhere. This was in the early 1900, and that took major balls - the size of which I can't comprehend!

Gotta give him that much, he fought an uphill battle and pretty much won.

Everyone on this forum condemns Jack Dempsey (rightfully, by the way) for being racist, even though it was a "different era", as you put it, and pretty much every white guy was racist. Doesn't make it right. Plus I make pains to mention that Johnson brutally beat his women. He didn't just slap them now and then, as I'm sure a lot of husbands did at the time, as you say.


You are way way wrong here. Read your damn history, for god's sakes. Read about W.E.B. DuBois and Booker T. Washington. These guys were advocating for black rights at the SAME time that Johnson was fighting. There were guys who were doing so even earlier. The late 19th century and early 20th century were full of black activists.


This just makes Johnson an even bigger jerk for thinking only about himself when so many other people were looking up to him. And Joe Louis fought only white guys because the same racial problems existed in his time. Only after WW2 did the public start accepting other black challengers.


web dubois and booker t washington were educated men doing extrodinary things at the time you cant judge jack johnson for not following them in their footsteps in leading the black rights movement. johnson wasn't educated, he wasnt in a position like athletes today are, nobody cared what he had to say, he was just a boxer in white america at that time.

of course jack johnson wasnt a hero. he was and arrogant rascist who did everything he could to make people hate him.

I love Jack Johnson, and love watching his fights. We can't judge him, everyone does bad things.


I will always remember him as a true American hero.

i think its great jakc was the first black man to dominate a huge sport, jackie robinson was the next great black player to come into a major white "ruled" sport, i think he woulda had a lot lot tougher time then he did if jack johnson wasnt the champ in boxing

Okay, fair enough. I disagree though that Johnson was critical of Louis because he thought he was playing up to white people. If Johnson didn't care about civil rights for African Americans why would he care if Louis was doing this? Fact is Johnson liked the spotlight for himself and himself only.

I know that a lot of people will like Johnson no matter what he might have done in his personal life. I wasn't trying to start trouble with this thread. You might be surprised to hear that I'm a big fan of his as well. It's just that people shouldn't say that he did or believed certain things when it's not true.

Ive seen the documentary way after this thread was done,so I'll say this about Louis-Johnson,didnt Johnson want to train Louis? But he was turned down because louis's people didnt want him assosiated with that kind of man/image.At which point Johnson turned bitter,and predicted louis would lose his next match(which he did?)

What Bombardier was sayin is that Johnson didnt benifit anybody but himself. I heard when Joe Louis was comin up his trainers were telling him you have to be the perfect gentlemen outside the ring and the meanist sonofa***** inside. Louis trainers also had rules for Louis you couldnt drink or smoke, or be photographed with a white women, etc. And even through all these difficulties and barriers (None of which Johnson alleviated by respecting the title) Louis stil respected the heavyweight champonship of the world all most 10 years before Jackie Robinson.

Johnson could have sacrificed things to help the future of his ppl but he chose not to. And b/c of this book and documentry we see him on HW TOP 10 lists and all that and to me its a bit funny, b/c nobody was talkin about him a couple yrs ago. Its almost the same case w/ Braddock with the exception that Braddock was truely a great human being, but after the movie ppl overrate him a bit.

In any case Jack Johnson is no martyr for the black race and in my opinion he ranks in between 14-10 and no higher than 10 in the top heavies of all time

wow, i can't believe this thread passed by my radar.

i noticed that a lot of people had seen the ken burns doc, but who here besides me has read the companion book? actually, the video is more like the companion to the book.

never read about him beating the **** out of any of his women though. i do remember that he had raised a hand to one or two of his girls, but i'm sure if he had intended to literally beat the **** out of 'em they would been hospitalized at some point.

jack wasn't necessarily an advocate for the promotion of black rights specifically, but he was down for the equalization of races. i don't remember his words specifically, but when asked about how he deals with racism, he basically said he views it as if it doesn't exist. he had also opened cafe de champion - a place open to people of all races without discrimination. he certainly was ahead of his time with his view on the race situation.

if anyone has questions on jack, ask away. i have a section of my library dedicated to jack which includes biographies, auto-biographies, and a wealth of information on his life in general and even whole books written about particular fights.

actually now id do remember reading about one of his girls being in the hospital for some reason, but i believe i had also read that jack was there with her the whole time. details are fuzzy at best. i'll have to thumb through some of my books and see if i can find any info for those who want to know.

one thing i thought i should also mention is that the newspapers back in those days were very racist themselves and had made a considerable effort to villianize johnson.

That seems really passively denying racism in the society. Then you had to be outspoken and not quietly fighting against injustices back then.

I can see why he was called a race traitor. His passiveness was useless if people were being hung for the color of their skin.

If you could recommend a book that would be great. Dude and I have talked a lot about Jack Jackson. Sounds like an interesting era he was from.


jack wasn't necessarily an advocate for the promotion of black rights specifically, but he was down for the equalization of races. i don't remember his words specifically, but when asked about how he deals with racism, he basically said he views it as if it doesn't exist. he had also opened cafe de champion - a place open to people of all races without discrimination. he certainly was ahead of his time with his view on the race situation.

Show me the quote from Dempsey that proves he was racist. He signed to fight Wills and was willing, but powers above him decided that fight would not take place. As an individual Dempsey did not have a racist bone in him as far as I know. I also know for a fact that George Godfrey was one of Dempseys favorite sparring partners and the two of them were good friends. Show me evidence of Dempsey's racism before you lump him in with Sullivan and the others.

Show me the quote from Dempsey that proves he was racist. He signed to fight Wills and was willing, but powers above him decided that fight would not take place. As an individual Dempsey did not have a racist bone in him as far as I know. I also know for a fact that George Godfrey was one of Dempseys favorite sparring partners and the two of them were good friends. Show me evidence of Dempsey's racism before you lump him in with Sullivan and the others.

yeah, dempsey was not a racist by a long shot.

Based on what I've heard about Unforgivable Blackness from Ken Burns and others, it appears that Jack Johnson will be portrayed as an arrogant yet ultimately noble man. I have some issues with this.

There is no doubt that Johnson was oppressed because of his race, and was betrayed by his government and indicted on phony charges because the general public did not want a black heavyweight champion, especially one that was so arrogant. This, however, does not make him a good person. Jack Johnson was notorious for horrendously beating his girlfriends. I don't maen he lost his temper once and did something he later regretted...I mean he brutally beat these girls over and over and never learned his lesson. This is not something that should be celebrated.

Interestingly enough, the only reason the feds could nail Johnon on the Mann act was because one of his old girlfriends that he beat around was so ticked off that she said whatever the government wanted to hear.

He wasn't even an advocate for African-American rights. Johnson had no interest in advancing the interests of African-Americans...he was only interested in himself. He refused to fight any other black challengers after he won the title because he knew that a white audience would not pay to see to black men fight for the title. In his later years he was always openly critical of other black boxing superstars, most notably Joe Louis. He always predicted that Louis would lose his fights and always made a point of criticizing his skills.

Was Johnson a great fighter? Yes. Was he railroaded by his own government? Absolutely. But was he a man worth honouring? No way, at least not as much as Burns appears to be doing.
** You appear to specialize in being totally wrong on most every point.

1. The Mann act charges were legit and Johnson admitted guilt.

2. Johnson may have slapped one of his wives are girlfriends on occasion, but he was actually known for being very generous and courteous with them.

3. Johnson was a great fighter, but he was also highly overrated. He turned down bigger money to fight Langford to fight for much less against Moran, so the money angle is dead wrong. He was afraid of losing his title.

4. Modern blacks usually do consider him a hero. Of course most of them know about as much as you do about him, about zip!

bloodshed, anybody viewing him as a race traitor probably hasn't read much about him.

being too pro black, especially back then, is like being pro white nowadays. it would be viewed as something other than what it actually is. besides that, i like the concept of being equal as opposed to simply boosting one side over the other.

a few books i recommend:

ken burns' unforgivable blackness(the book of course as it has much much more info on jack than the video.

jack johnson is a dandy - a decent autobiography if you can find it. my copy is from 1969.

keep in mind, however, that like a lot of great fighters from the early days of boxing that some of the material might not be 100% accurate.

these are just a couple of books that i have regarding jack specifically, but they provide a fairly wide scope of jack and his views. the autobiography that he wrote probably best describes and demonstrates the way he thought as opposed to second hand accounts.